Territorial Integrity

by craig on March 1, 2014 8:28 pm in Uncategorized

I am inclined to think the concept of territorial integrity is overrated.  100 years ago, a guarantee of Belgium’s territorial integrity led Britain into the most disastrous of wars.  Thankfully for all the huffing and puffing about Ukraine’s territorial integrity, no outside power is going to be stupid enough to declare war on Russia.

The boundaries of states are accidents of history.  Ukraine’s certainly are.  There never had been a Ukrainian national state until 25 years ago, and the boundaries of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic were never intended to define a nation state.  Indeed Crimea, which has never in history been ethnically or linguistically Ukrainian (it was Tartar before Stalin deported them), was only added on to the Ukrainian SSR within my lifetime for some obscure reason of Soviet politburo politics.

Rather than burble on about territorial integrity, the western world would do better to cut a deal with Putin wherein referenda on their future in Ukrainian provinces are held under international supervision with some degree of fairness.  Personally I very much want to see Ukraine in the EU, but not with a tail of Russian provinces who really do not want to be there.

Putin, of course, is a total hypocrite.  There is no doubt that the populations of Dagestan and Chehcnya had a genuine and settled desire to secede from Russia, and they have suffered Putin’s genocidal policies in consequence.  Putin is not acting from a belief in self-determination, but from naked Russian nationalism.  That is what is so amusing about the deluded left wingers supporting him against the nationalists of Kiev.

Referenda in the provinces of Ukraine, certainly.  But how about internationally supervised referenda in Dagestan and Chechnya as well?

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135 Comments

  1. As the Ukraine is a combination of a russophile east and a europhile west and the Crimea is Ukranian only as the result of a Soviet accident, splitting the country would seem the right thing to do now.

  2. I don’t think Putin is in any way on his own when it comes to totally opposite view of what is mine and what is yours. I don’t think you can name a single leader in all of history who is/was willing to give up territory just because logically it was not part of his/her state.

  3. OrwellianUK

    1 Mar, 2014 - 9:10 pm

    To be fair Craig, Putin is not the only one who is being hypocritical here and it would help redress the massive anti-Russian stance of the Western media if you point out that there are no “Good Guys” in this affair, but simply the Realpolitik of ruthless State operators such as Putin and Obama et al.

    And to be even fairer, it’s not unreasonable to expect Putin to resist a US Puppet Government on his doorstep. Can you imagine the response if Russia or China spent billions attempting to destabilise the government of say Canada or Mexico in order to install their own puppet? Commentary about that very real double standard is what is completely absent from the Western Media whenever such international crises occur.

    Of course it should also be pointed out that one of the reasons there were such bitter conflicts in Chechnya and Dagestan is because of Western backed Terrorist Groups being used to destabilise those provinces.

  4. The pretentious Foreign Secretary writes -

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/foreign-secretary-calls-for-de-escalation-of-tensions-in-ukraine

    As if anyone takes any notice of him.

  5. The western world cutting a deal with Putin over Ukraine – that sounds very colonial. Do you mean something like the Munich Pact? Putin is a psychopath. He’s been appeased by this country already. Cameron’s government have been kindly covering up the Polonium attack here for them.

    I’ve been impressed by the Ukrainian politicians trying to defuse the situation and not play into Putin’s hands. I wish them well. Its not the West’s place to offer their country up to Putin.

  6. Several leaders have sold territory. E.g. Denmark sold its Caribbean colonies to the US in the 1920s. In the 1980s there was talk (idle!) of Gorbachev possibly selling the Kurile islands in return for Japanese investment in Sibera. Had he ever been about to go ahead, the Russian armed forces would probably have vetoed the idea. The Rothschilds in London wouldn’t have liked it either.

    But the Crimea is different, for reasons that have nothing to do with national feeling or demography: reasons of the military balance of power. The Russian rulers are going to stay in the Crimea. Anyone who thinks they will leave, paving the way for the German-friendly Ukrainians to join NATO and for US warships to dock at Sevastopol is living in cloud cuckoo land. Russia will go to war to stop that. Not war as in Georgia, but war as in intercontinental ballistic missiles armed with nuclear warheads.

    Everyone talks about the ‘single hyperpower’ today, just as ignorant people who don’t know much about the history of international relations repeat the ignorant line that the ‘cold war’ ended in 1989. I’m talking about people who probably never heard of detente or Apollo-Soyuz or SALT. The US-USSR cold war ended in the early 1960s, or, if you want to push things, the late 1960s. Then there was a bit of a half-hearted mini revival in the 1980s after the Zionists had wrecked detente. For what it’s worth, Fischer-Spassky happened at the height of detente, not the height of the cold war! :-)

    The ‘hyperpower’ line is similarly ignorant. Russia still has several thousand nuclear warheads. Unlike the US ones, they don’t let Israeli companies ‘help out’ with their nuclear security either.

    @Craig – Bandera’s lot, the OUN, declared a Ukrainian state in 1941. Cf. the current regime in Croatia, which speaks of Croatian ‘independence’ in the early 1940s under the vile Ustashi, who sometimes got so carried away with massacring people that they annoyed the German Nazis. There are some similarities between Ukraine and Yugoslavia – religious ones. Not that I would push that comparison too far. The country kind of merges into Poland and one end and into Russia at the other.

  7. Following the unanimous vote for military action.. Obama skipped a briefing today on the matter.

    http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-02-28/ukraine-russia-yanukovich-crimea/

    “The United Nations Security Council has met in New York. The Ukrainian envoy said: “This action by the Russian Federation constitutes an act of aggression against the state of Ukraine.

    “We call upon the Security Council to do everything possible now to stop Russian aggression against Ukraine. There is still a chance.”

  8. Resident Dissident

    1 Mar, 2014 - 10:24 pm

    And what was the result of the last referendum on Ukrainian independence – including within the Crimea?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991

    Cutting a deal to hold a referendum under the present conditions where Putin is using the threat of cutting off gas/hikes in its price, where he sends in unbadged troops first and then gets parliamentary approval afterwards, where there are no guarantees of minority rights for those who are transferred to another country would just be a green light for every other tyrant in the world to behave in a similar fashion. And you really think that any referendum wouldn’t be a foregone conclusion? What on earth does “some” degree of fairness mean?

    And what do you think the effect of just quietly accepting such behaviour would be back in Russia (where Putin already has Navalny under house arrest with no access to the internet) or in how Russia is likely to behave to its neighbours and minorities within the Russian Federation.

    No we are not going to go to war with Russia – but there is a lot that we can do to make life uncomfortable for the regime – freezing their private bank accounts and overseas assets (most of which were robbed from the Russian people) might be a start.

    Yes territorial integrity may be overrated but then appeasement is even more so.

  9. A bit ironic asking for referenda in Ukrainian provinces, considering the recent talks in Kiev that ended with all parties agreeing to new presidential elections in December, return to the 2004 Constitution and release of Julia Tymoshenko from prison. Somebody obviously didn’t like that outcome, hence the mayhem & bloodshed that quickly followed it.

    I don’t think Putin is acting from “naked Russian nationalism”; think of the Cuban missile crisis, and remember that was a result of US missile being placed in Turkey, so the potential of NATO missiles anywhere so near Russian boarders seems to be very much a red line.

  10. Ref the EU, what will the voters of Rochester and Strood decide?

    MP’s EU ‘referendum’ gets under way in Rochester and Strood
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26398052

  11. Lots of stuff on various web pages and news sites tonight..however I do not think that Putin will start an all out invasion of Ukraine…he is not that stupid..probably a scaled up deployment of Russian troops to ‘PROTECT’ Russian speaking peoples of Ukraine against so called radical elements in Kiev…maybe I am wrong and that Putin will throw the Soviet might against Ukraine to prove to Obama that Russia is now not taking a back seat…I watch the news with interest..

  12. Resident Dissident

    1 Mar, 2014 - 10:39 pm

    “I don’t think Putin is acting from “naked Russian nationalism”;”

    And who has proposed to place NATO missiles in the Ukraine or suggested revoking the very long lease on the Russian navy’s base in the Crimea? And quite frankly in this day and age I don’t think geographical proximity is much of an issue given the likely range of missiles.

  13. Such synchronicity. Nikita was Ukrainian, made a gift of the Crimea; was a colleague of Berea under Stalin. The Cuban Missiles were a defensive move after the US placed nukes in Turkey and Italy.

    The West tickles the tail of the dragon of xenophobia with reckless disregard.

  14. ResDes; “And who has proposed to place NATO missiles in the Ukraine or suggested revoking the very long lease on the Russian navy’s base in the Crimea?”

    With a “pro-Western” Ukraine, all that is potentially possible.

    ResDes; “And quite frankly in this day and age I don’t think geographical proximity is much of an issue given the likely range of missiles.”

    The US seem to think differently; they quite like short-range nuclear missiles, the attraction I guess is in the description/name.

  15. I’m a little surprised Craig hasn’t made the Sevastapol/Tartus connection. Those ports are strategic to others not of Russian sympathies.

  16. Russia have learnt the lesson of Afghanistan when they went in before the olympics.

  17. “And who has proposed to place NATO missiles in the Ukraine or suggested revoking the very long lease on the Russian navy’s base in the Crimea? And quite frankly in this day and age I don’t think geographical proximity is much of an issue given the likely range of missiles.”

    I think the missiles concerned would be defensive missiles there to neutralise the Russian nuclear capability. America has good defences against Russian missiles, Europe is still very vulnerable unless Russian missiles can be intercepted quickly.

  18. This is like a special episode of Ow! My Balls! starring Ken Adelman. First Putin puts him in a can opener and he has to tap the mat in Syria. In retaliation, the old buzzard achieves his lifelong dream of knocking over the Kievan Rus, and he winds with the Exclusion Zone.

  19. How capable is Russia’s military overall?

    It’s moderately competent. It’s not at the level of the American or British or German military, but it’s better than in the 1990s. The [Russian] military is good at bullying small neighbors, but it would not be effective against NATO. It would not be able to defeat China.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-decides-to-send-troops-into-crimea-what-does-the-black-sea-fleet-look-like/2014/03/01/38cf005c-a160-11e3-b8d8-94577ff66b28_story.html

    Vlad is a strutting peacock, and as you may know, making oneself look larger is a trick the animal kingdom uses when confronting a foe. His bragging rights hearken from an earlier time in the Soviet. I don’t think he’s crazy enough to believe his forces can prevail, but I think he would rather die than appear weak. That, in itself, makes him dangerous.

  20. “How capable is Russia’s military overall?”

    They did pretty good at Stalingrad.

    Doesn’t do to underestimate them.

  21. “They did pretty good at Stalingrad.”

    Moisin Nagant, from house to house, yes, but that was how long ago?

  22. “Moisin Nagant, from house to house, yes, but that was how long ago?”

    Only 70 years.

    Like I said, don’t underestimate the Russians.

  23. Obama is a tool of the Synagogue of Satan, EVERYTHING he says is pre-meditated spin and fake. The real issue is what is this strange force that makes a nuland and an anon at this blog entirely in sync without any commo? It must be Satan !

  24. Unusually weak and ignorant analysis by Craig – more like something you might expect to read in the Guardian. As Pepe Escocar says in Asia Today, the timing of this planned event is all to do with Syria.

  25. Black jelly

    2 Mar, 2014 - 1:10 am

    @Ben after your ISON digress your CIA slip is showing even more ! Where is your partner in crime?

  26. Clarence

    If you mean this article http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-05-280214.html by Escocar it is puerile. The notion that NATO are orchestrating events to kick the Russian navy out of Sevastopol is ridiculous. NATO has no fear of the Russian Navy – which can’t actually get out of the Black Sea unless NATO lets it – ever heard of the Bosphorus? The plain truth is that if NATO wanted, it could sink the entire Russian Black Sea fleet in ten minutes. That would of course be suicidal as Russia could retaliate in other ways. But the Black Sea fleet is a dead letter and an irrelevance, except as a motivator for Putin.

    The problem is that many on the left will ever accept any analysis which does not simply say “Western evil bastards, Putin heroic defender f freedom”. Anything else is “ignorant”.

  27. Craig,

    I don’t think he suggested that NATO has any fear of the Russian Navy; rather that it provided a supply route to Syria that the zios want to cut off. Here is a more balanced analysis from ex CIA analyst, Ray McGovern:

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/

  28. Truly remarkable state propaganda piece from the BBC:

    “What in many ways is so remarkable is how predictable Russia’s behaviour has been; straight from the post-Soviet play-book.

    It has involved a combination of political rhetoric (talk of threats to Russian minorities, orthodox religious sites and so on), threats of economic pressure (the imposition of new customs duties at the Russian-Ukrainian frontier), and overt military action at least in the Crimea with key installations and government buildings seized by troops in unmarked uniforms whose weaponry, vehicles and behaviour marked them out as regular service personnel taking their orders from Moscow.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26403297

  29. Craig: Are you conflating all leftists as ‘deluded’?

  30. “@Ben after your ISON digress..”

    You mean the one last year? Hokay…

  31. The problem is that many on the left will ever accept any analysis which does not simply say “Western evil bastards, Putin heroic defender f freedom”. Anything else is “ignorant”.

    Perhaps it’s more accurate to say many on the left cannot accept that international law (invasion of sovereign territory) applied to the US (eg over Iraq in particular, Pakistan lately) is in inverse proportion to that which it ‘must’ apply to Russia.

    Personally I find the hypocrisy of the US and minions bleating about international law palpable and nauseating.

  32. Peter Kemp, I agree wholeheartedly. That’s why, in part, I was so disappointed in the Guardianista/BBC-type posting by Craig. Maybe he thinks he is providing pro-EU comment but this whole neocon-inspired putch is likely to blow back on them. Currently, Putin is indeed the only one showing any statesmanship whether you admire him or not.

  33. I’m not sure that all that many on the left are taken in by Putin. Some, perhaps. Looks to me that The West is flailing about in their usual stupid manner, and making Putin look clever. Putin is who he is: an authoritarian who, under the disguise of protecting Russia, is really interested in protecting the oligarch\military\ex KGB nexus that runs the show. Oh, he’s a Russian nationalist as well, I’m sure. I don’t think any of this is a surprise to most.

    Won’t feign expertise on Ukraine, but it seems pretty obvious that US\NATO\EU have over-played their hand here, and Putin has his pretext for sabre rattling. It’s beyond me why we would be so interested in Ukraine, and expend so much effort toppling their Government, unless there is some long-game to get rid of Putin himself, or perhaps it’s about pipelines and gas, who knows? I’m afraid there are a bunch of intelligent, influential people who believe fervently that intervention in foreign governments is necessary, and that to do otherwise is naive. Myself I take the view that intervention may be an option, but only in exceptional circumstances, and even then warily. If, for example, we could topple the lunatics in N. Korea, I’d understand the necessity. But, of course, nobody cares what I think, and if my view is the majority view, which I bet it is, then fuck the majority view. The majority = the losers.

    Doubtless all this will die down, after face is saved, and some deal is ironed out. But the regime change mania isn’t going to stop any time soon, and this bodes very badly indeed, I think.

  34. even AP admits questions remain about the constitutional legitimacy of the vote:

    24 Feb: Moscow Times: AP: Ukraine’s Parliament Boss Takes Presidential Powers
    The legitimacy of the parliament’s flurry of decisions in recent days is under question. The votes are based on a decision Friday to return to a 10-year-old constitution that grants parliament greater powers. Yanukovych has not signed that decision into law, and he said Saturday that the parliament is now acting illegally.
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraines-parliament-boss-takes-presidential-powers/495066.html

    Soros, NED, USAID, EU … and Olmidyar – the following is on leftwing site, about another leftwing site that exposed this fact. all parties well-known to each other:

    28 Feb: Raw Story: Report: Glenn Greenwald’s boss helped U.S. fund Ukrainian opposition groups
    “Of the many problems that poses, none is more serious than the fact that Omidyar now has the only two people with exclusive access to the complete Snowden NSA cache, Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras,” Ames went on to write. “Somehow, the same billionaire who co-financed the ‘coup’ in Ukraine with USAID, also has exclusive access to the NSA secrets—and very few in the independent media dare voice a skeptical word about it.”…
    UPDATE: Greenwald has addressed the Pando story, saying that the Omidyar Network’s funding in Ukraine won’t affect his journalist independence:
    “I was not previously aware that the Omidyar Network donated to this Ukrainian group. That’s because, prior to creating The Intercept with Laura Poitras and Jeremy Scahill, I did not research Omidyar’s political views or donations. That’s because his political views and donations are of no special interest to me – any more than I cared about the political views of the family that owns and funds Salon (about which I know literally nothing, despite having worked there for almost 6 years), or any more than I cared about the political views of those who control the Guardian Trust.
    “There’s a very simple reason for that: they have no effect whatsoever on my journalism or the journalism of The Intercept. That’s because we are guaranteed full editorial freedom and journalistic independence.”
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/28/report-glenn-greenwalds-boss-helped-u-s-fund-ukrainian-opposition-groups/

    btw left/right/libertarian websites in US that i visit are antiwar, & don’t like the involvement of their Govt in yet another fake revolution, for which they might be asked to sacrifice lives. if only we could unite on the basis of that commonality.

    british public, on the other hand, couldn’t care a damn.

  35. 1 Mar: Deutsche Welle: Caracas burns anew as Venezuela’s anti-Maduro protests extend into March
    President Nicolas Maduro has labeled the near month of protests a US-backed “coup” attempt.
    Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner also denounced the “attempted soft coup against the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.” On Saturday, she told the Argentine parliament that, though she would not defend Maduro or his government, it was necessary to stand by the democratic system “in every country of the region, whether from the left, the right or from behind.” She added that “democracy is a matter of peace and life.”…
    http://www.dw.de/caracas-burns-anew-as-venezuelas-anti-maduro-protests-extend-into-march/a-17467454

  36. time will tell how much is true:

    RT: Ukrainian Navy flagship takes Russia’s side – report
    Ukraine’s Navy flagship, the Hetman Sahaidachny frigate, has reportedly refused to follow orders from Kiev, and come over to Russia’s side and is returning home after taking part in NATO operation in the Gulf of Aden flying the Russian naval flag.
    There has been conflicting information on where exactly the vessel is, but a Russian senator has confirmed to Izvestia daily that the frigate defected to the Russian side.
    “Ukraine’s Navy flagship the Hetman Sahaidachny has come over to our side today. It has hung out the St Andrew’s flag,” Senator Igor Morozov, a member of the committee on the international affairs, told Izvestia daily.
    He said the flagship is on its way back to the Black Sea after drills in the Mediterranean. “The crew has fulfilled the order by the chief commander of Ukraine’s armed forces Viktor Yanukovich,” he added…
    The move comes after the Navy command resigned Friday. Self-appointed President Aleksandr Turchinov made Rear Admiral Denis Berezovsky the new Navy Chief, a statement published on the President’s website Saturday said.
    Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the Prime Minister of Ukraine had earlier asked his Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan not to let the frigate through the Bosporus strait, according to the Kiev Times. The ship captain and the head of Ukraine’s contingent in the operation, Rear Admiral Andrey Tarasov disobeyed orders from Kiev.
    The Hetman Sahaidachny returns to Sevastopol, Crimea after taking part in a joint counter-piracy operation with NATO and the EU off the Horn of Africa, reported UNN on Friday, citing Ukraine’s Defense Ministry.
    http://rt.com/news/ukraine-navy-flaghsip-protest-389/

  37. Putin was highly critical of the US led invasion of Iraq. It seems hypocrisy over this impending disaster runs wide and deep.

    It isn’t the hypocrisy of the likes of Obama or Putin but that of the so-called anti-war left in this country which, I have to say, hasn’t come as much of a surprise to many. There’s nothing statesmanlike about bullying a smaller, weaker nation and Putin’s excuses of providing stability and protecting the Russian speaking minority are risible.

  38. Craig,

    Your anti-Putin bias is well explained by Robert Parry here:

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/26/cheering-a-democratic-coup-in-ukraine/

    An excerpt:

    “That strategy was going swimmingly until Putin helped bring Iran to the negotiating table over guarantees that its nuclear program would not lead to a nuclear weapon. Putin also brokered a deal to avert threatened U.S. air strikes on Syria over disputed evidence regarding who launched a chemical attack on civilians outside Damascus. Putin got the Syrian government to agree to eliminate its chemical weapons arsenal.
    So, Putin found himself in the center of the neocons’ bulls-eye and – given some of his own unforced errors such as defending Russia’s intolerance toward gays and spending excessively on the Sochi Olympics – he became the latest “designated villain,” denounced and ridiculed across the neocon-dominated op-ed pages of the Washington Post and other major news outlets.
    Even NBC, from its treasured spot as the network of the Olympic Games, felt it had no choice but to denounce Putin in an extraordinary commentary delivered by anchor Bob Costas. Once the demonizing ball gets rolling everyone has to join in or risk getting run over, too.
    All of which set the stage for Ukraine. “

    Have you been watching too much NBC of late?

  39. Dear Craig,

    My final comment on your primary post and – especially – your response to the Escobar article posted at 1.12 am. Your response is so silly that I doubt you were fully cognisant when you made it, so I will not labour the point (at least too much, I hope).

    As you will know, there are very strict legal maritime agreements about the passage of naval vessels through the Bosphorus Straights. So for NATO to block Russian vessels (other than major warships such as Aircraft Carriers) would be an act of war. And of course NATO could sink the entire Russian Black Sea fleet (although unlikely in 10 minutes), just as the Russians could readily dispose of the US Fifth Fleet based in Bahrain. But these actions too would be a declaration of war, by either side, and MAD would ensue.

    So it is entirely unclear as to the point you were trying to make other than to perhaps disparage the Russian naval capacity (and of course the evil “Putin”) at the feet of the all mighty and righteous NATO.

    I do hope that you pause to reflect and do some more reading. See eg:

    http://orientalreview.org/2014/03/01/the-costs-you-are-about-to-pay-in-ukraine-president-obama/

  40. “Once the demonizing ball gets rolling everyone has to join in ”

    Not difficult to demonize someone who’s launched an unprovoked invasion of a neighbouring country.

  41. Glenn Greenwald’s full response – somewhat long-winded & beside the point, but here it is:

    On the Meaning of Journalistic Independence
    By Glenn Greenwald
    This morning, I see that some people are quite abuzz about a new Pando
    article “revealing” that the foundation of Pierre Omidyar, the publisher of
    First Look Media which publishes The Intercept, gave several hundred
    thousand dollars to a Ukraininan “pro-democracy” organization opposed to the
    ruling regime. This, apparently, is some sort of scandal that must be
    immediately addressed not only by Omidyar, but also by every journalist who
    works at First Look. That several whole hours elapsed since the article was
    published on late Friday afternoon without my commenting is, for some,
    indicative of disturbing stonewalling…
    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/01/journalistic-independence/

  42. Are you aware a neo nazi government has been installed? This bodes ill for the ethno Russians.

    http://peoplesworld.org/ukrainian-ultra-rightists-given-major-cabinet-posts-in-government/
    Ukrainian ultra-rightists given major Cabinet posts in government
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/28/the-swedish-neo-nazis-of-kiev.html
    Neo-Nazis Pour Into Kiev
    A stream of European jihadists have traveled to Syria to wage holy war. Now a group of European neo-Nazis are traveling to Ukraine to save the white race
    http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/ukraine-nationalistantisemitismneonaziviolence.html
    Ultranationalist neo-Nazi parties on the march in Ukraine
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14553#.UxKa4eNdVTI
    Op-Ed: Tea With Neo-Nazis: The Violent Nationalism in Ukraine
    The violence in Ukraine is a show case of the pan-European rise of race hatred. Europe is engaging in a risky blindness. Again.
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100260665/ukraine-the-opposition-arent-all-angels-some-are-neo-nazis/
    Ukraine: the opposition aren’t all angels. Some are neo-Nazis

  43. Well Hague is off to Kiev to meet the ‘interim government’ as the British MSM are referring to these self-appointed men. I see no women in the picture incidentally.

  44. A review of the British Sunday papers on Sky News last night. Scripted. Incestuous.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfgwPiPMjoY#t=15

    Priceless!

    The female is described as an historian which is true but in reality they get her on for commentary on royal weddings, jubilees and christenings. The male is a PR type and used to be a speechwriter. You get the drift. I love the bit when the Observer front page comes up with the large photo of a Russian soldier. ‘That’s what an invasion looks like’ says the male. He should have gone to Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya et al.

    Alex Deane – Weber, Shandwick Media Intelligence Partners. Cameron’s first chief of staff! http://mippr.co.uk/mipeople/alex-deane/

    Kate Williams – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Williams_(historian)#Television_and_radio

  45. The ZBC equivalent which might be of interest.

    The Papers 1.3.2014 Ukraine
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v6poskGbqc

  46. ‘Yesterday the United States lost the propaganda war on Ukraine. President Obama made a reluctant and senseless statement which Washington Post entitled “There will be costs”.

    He pronounced standard phrases like “the Ukrainian people deserve the opportunity to determine their own future”, proposed Russia to be a “part of an international community’s effort to support the stability and success of a united Ukraine”, lamented over the alleged “violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity” and assured that “the United States supports his government’s efforts and stands for the sovereignty, territorial integrity and democratic future of Ukraine”.’

    [..]

    ‘So Moscow’s message to President Obama is simple. We are the real guarantors of Ukrainian sovereignty. We are protecting the life of its incumbent president, elected by the people of Ukraine at the free and competitive poll in 2010, from the direct personal threat from illegitimate “new authorities”. For the last three months, unlike you, we were not interfering in the internal political process in Ukraine while your Assistant Secretary of State was handing buns to the “peaceful protesters” in Kiev and talking smut about your European dialogue partners. We followed the letter and spirit of the international law whether we liked it or not. And today we are giving hope to millions of the Russian Ukrainians who categorically reject banderist authorities in Kiev. We are defending their right to determine their future. Therefore you will be brought to account for the billions of dollars invested for years long into the chimera project of the Orange revolution in Ukraine, which in its second incarnation turned Brown. You will be charged for months of explicit incitements for riots and civilian disobedience to legitimate authorities in Ukraine, committed by your officials and congressmen. And you will be responsible for the recognition of the shady Kiev “cabinet”, not only lacking any public support in Ukraine, but also any real resources to secure minimal level of life and the rule of law in this 45-million strong nation, lost in a non-existent “transition”, invented by your insolvent foreign policy consultants. These are the costs you are about to pay in Ukraine, President Obama.’

    Links within.

    The Costs about to Be Paid in Ukraine
    by Andre Fomine / March 1st, 2014
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/03/the-costs-about-to-be-paid-in-ukraine/

  47. “The problem is that many on the left will ever accept any analysis which does not simply say “Western evil bastards, Putin heroic defender f freedom”. Anything else is “ignorant”.”

    Well said, Craig!

    To which Ben blunders in with: “Craig: Are you conflating all leftists as ‘deluded’?”

    If you can read, then clearly not, Ben. Just a certain deluded variety. <O~~~

  48. This is the current US Ambassador to Ukraine. He was on the end of the line to Nuland in the now notorious telephone conversation – the $5billion and the ****the EU references.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_R._Pyatt

    A previous incumbent William Green Miller was rolled out on BBC News overnight. He was Ukraine Ambassador in Clinton’s time. He is a member of the neocon outfit the Council on Foreign Relations.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1393742861.html video

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Green_Miller

  49. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 8:36 am

    There has always been a section of the British left which never suffered from delusions about the Soviet Union and for which the ersatz left saved its greatest hatred e.g. just remember the initial treatment of Orwell. I am afraid many of the commenters here are just carrying on that disgusting ands squalid tradition – which is of course while they have alighted on his “deluded left wingers” comment rather than his rather misguided guided call for referenda in Western Ukraine in current circumstances, which I am sure their latterday hero would heartily endorse.

    What is not appreciated is that the class around Putin always considered that the break up of the Soviet Union was the greatest betrayal – and that the objective is it re-establishment in a modern day form, with all the former states within the control of a small elite based in Moscow who derive most of the material benefits (yes wealth for the elite has become very important – and there is no longer an ideological requirement not to brag too much about it). I posted links before to how Russia now had a top rate of income tax of 13% and how social spending on health and pensions was being cut in a way that Osbourne and his ilk could only dream of, at the same time as spending ridiculous amounts on the Sochi Olympics where the mistress of the Great Leader is involved in lighting the flame – but even then the ersatz left still continue with their delusions.

  50. A blog about Ukraine and N_ manages to fit in three references to Rothschilds, Zionists and Israelis.

    If N_ carries on like this he may find himself in line for the John Dross Trophy for outstanding obsession with the Joos, previously held by Guano and the late Fedup. Fingers crossed!

  51. Yeah but it’s an invasion like and invasions are like wrong and Putin is a nationalist and well dodgy innit.

    BBC, Sky and other of the tools of western oligarchs are pushing the term “invasion” to an extent that they’re now more laughable than their last propaganda blitz.

    Anyway, as ever, Herbie has a solution.

    How’s about the EU take the western forests and fascists bits and like Russia takes its own bits.

    Sorted.

  52. Black jelly

    2 Mar, 2014 - 8:59 am

    On 911 Rummsfeld was ensconced in the East Wing of the Pentagon whilst 3 large planes flew about (unchallenged by NORAD) for 1.5 hours in the most sensitive air-space in the world. 110 story steel structures then turned to dust in 10-15 seconds leaving an only 80 ft pile of rubble at the base?!! Etc,etc… we are talking of the Beast here, kempe (with the “We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.” yiddery), and definitely NOT PUTINn !

    This SAME dedicated group of deep state devils at the Pentagon East Wing planned and carried out the Ukrainian putch. Nuland did not simply appear uninvited at the Maidan with leftover matzo balls for distribution to the hungry CIA mob. Nor was the toothpaste bomber spin just before Sochi. Nor were the US warships turning up in the Black Sea.

    But like the BBC WTC 7 DST bubu the fools forgot, that even if a dragon fly farts in Ukraine Boris knows about it. The Nuland “Fuck EU” telecon leak was just a starter, the Russians have known about the Pentagon devil’ plans all along, it was simply an opportunity to regain Crimea. Obama will shut up as soon as they reveal other even more damaging Nuland Fuck you type conversations in private. Even Hague will tighten his sphincter and retreat for fear the Bear will fuck it !!

  53. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:10 am

    From the OED

    Invasion noun

    1 An instance of invading a country or region with an armed force

    Could Herbie please explain how the term “invasion” is being pushed? Or is this just another case of the totalitarians wishing to redefine language for their own purposes.

  54. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:12 am

    Black Jelly

    There is medicine you can take to deal with severe forms of delusion such as your own.

  55. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:14 am

    “Mr Putin responded by saying that Moscow reserves the right to protect its interests and those of Russian speakers in Ukraine”

    Most Ukrainians speak Russian.

  56. Res Diss, they’ll at worst support, or at best make excuses for, any old dictator, tyrant or autocratic regime as long as it is opposed to the West. Their proclaimed principles of justice, equality and fairness in the world are immediately dispensed with in such a situation. Craig, at least, can see the moral hazards of going down this route, but elements of the left have been characterized by their willingness to turn a blind eye to the unsavoury aspects of those they champion ever since the days of Mao and Stalin, and rightly maligned for doing so as no one likes a hypocrite who pretends to occupy the moral high ground.

  57. “Rather than burble on about territorial integrity, the western world would do better to cut a deal with Putin wherein referenda on their future in Ukrainian provinces are held under international supervision with some degree of fairness. Personally I very much want to see Ukraine in the EU, but not with a tail of Russian provinces who really do not want to be there.”

    Surely the reason why territorial integrity is important is because it was the subject of agreements to respect it signed by the US, the UK, Russia, and Ukraine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

    I think it would be an extremely dangerous precedent to agree to Putin’s annexation of the Crimea. If there is to be any kind of secession of the Crimea then surely that should be decided by Ukraine. Not by Putin.

  58. Res Diss

    “Could Herbie please explain how the term “invasion” is being pushed?”

    Here ya go.

    Watch and weep.

    The Murdoch oligarch’s outfit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfgwPiPMjoY

    The BBC oligarchs efforts:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_bL7m58Zpw

    All the other western oligarchs:

    https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=ukraine+invasion&oq=ukraine+invasion&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i53.541.6833.0.7654.16.3.0.13.13.0.141.327.2j1.3.0…0.0…1ac.1.phFPSnFFYtQ

    Truly pitiful stuff.

  59. “Resident Dissident2 Mar, 2014 – 9:10 am “From the OED

    Invasion noun1

    An instance of invading a country or region with an armed force

    Could Herbie please explain how the term “invasion” is being pushed? Or is this just another case of the totalitarians wishing to redefine language for their own purposes.”

    Herbie will likely respond that the OED is an elitist organ of the fascist state and that in more common parlance an invasion is like not an invasion.

  60. Or rather, an invasion is like only an invasion when we don’t like the invader, like.

  61. Nobody here seems to have noticed that the only remaining legal and constitutional representative of the Ukraine is its duly elected (in western certified ‘free and fair’ elections) president (Corrupt and incompetent though he may be, though no more so than his predecessor) – Viktor Yanukovych, currently under the protection of Russia. That represents something approaching an ace of trumps so far as the ‘International Law’ that so beloved of the US-NATO when it suits.

    For a flavour of who now calls the shots in Kiev – meet one Olexander Muzychko (aka Sasha Biliy) whose party has just secured the Defense and internal security portfolios of the new US sponsored (by “Fuck the EU” US Deputy Secretary of State Nuland) in her Yats led government

    And Craig – I have a serious objection to ostensibly ‘pro-Putin’ opinion being characterised as so-called “Left”. A re-think about your passe political spectrum vocabulary would be welcome.

  62. Interesting edit war happening on the Wikipedia page Angrysoba linked to. Here’s an example of what keeps being added and deleted:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances&diff=597757436&oldid=597756378

    The Russian population in Southern and Eastern Ukraine (who, for example, form over 60 percent of the population of Crimea) had voted for president Yanukovych and his government and strongly felt that their democratic rights have been violated by those who overthrew this government. They felt entitled to apply the same, although much more peaceful, measures to appoint their own government in Crimea. Following the threats from the new government in Kiev, Sergei Aksyonov, the new Prime Minister of Crimea, asked Russia for military assistance in protecting the security of the Russian population in Southern and Eastern Ukrain

    Here’s the article’s history; note the repeated additions and deletions:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances&action=history

  63. Comrades! The malignant forces of the West along with their capitalist attack dogs and lickspittle mouthpieces in the zionist media have declared the actions of our Dear Leader to be akin to those of an “invasion”!! Armed military incursion into a sovereign territory is not an invasion, Comrades, it is a peaceful passing of peoples from one place to another!!!

  64. Angrysoba

    “If there is to be any kind of secession of the Crimea then surely that should be decided by Ukraine. Not by Putin.”

    There was an agreement to hammer these issues out in discussion, but I think you’ll find that western oligarchs scuppered it with violence.

    And, they do have form in this regard.

    Anyway. Let’s hope the Poles are happy with their new neighbours. At least we now know why they haven’t had the best of rides this millenium. Bit clueless, if you ask me.

  65. “There was an agreement to hammer these issues out in discussion, but I think you’ll find that western oligarchs scuppered it with violence.”

    Could you explain what you mean by this?

  66. “Nobody here seems to have noticed that the only remaining legal and constitutional representative of the Ukraine is its duly elected (in western certified ‘free and fair’ elections) president (Corrupt and incompetent though he may be, though no more so than his predecessor) – Viktor Yanukovych, currently under the protection of Russia. That represents something approaching an ace of trumps so far as the ‘International Law’ that so beloved of the US-NATO when it suits.”

    I don’t see what that has to do with International law. Ukrainian law, perhaps.

  67. @Fred “I think the missiles concerned would be defensive missiles there to neutralise the Russian nuclear capability.”

    Fred, you can’t just say that ABM defences are merely defensive and leave it at that. Defence against an opponent’s ability to retaliate massively against a first strike restores your own ability to carry out the said first strike. That’s what ‘missile shields’ are all about.

    And that’s why there was a treaty on anti-ballistic missiles. What was wrong with the ABM treaty that caused the US to tear it up?

    The balance of power in Europe and elsewhere has changed a lot in the last 25 years. If the Crimea fell to NATO then Russia would stop being a great power. The shift would be bigger than when the German forces crossed the Rhine in 1936.

    If the US tries to force Russia out of the Crimea, there will be a US-Russian war – which will probably be nuclear.

    For those who don’t want that, it’s important to keep drawing attention to the West’s role in destabilising the Ukraine in the first place. The West wants to keep its home market.

    The destabilisation has included propaganda about armed pro-western militias recruiting men to go to the Crimea and ‘defend’ it against Russia. Whether any such militias actually exist is another matter. But it is obvious that pressure is being put on the Russian presence in the Ukraine. Psychological warfare is part of a warfare; it is a kind of warfare.

    An interesting question is how does today’s position (which may have changed quite a bit by tomorrow) look for NATO. Remember where the Straits are.

    @Anon “A blog about Ukraine and N_ manages to fit in three references to Rothschilds, Zionists and Israelis. If N_ carries on like this he may find himself in line for the John Dross Trophy for outstanding obsession with the Joos, previously held by Guano and the late Fedup. Fingers crossed!

    ‘Crossed’, eh?

    I suggest that you stop being insulting and sarcastic for a moment and read up, for starters, on how US-Soviet detente came to an end. If you don’t want to look at the Yom Kippur War, have a look at the Jackson-Vanick Amendment.

    On the Rothschilds and Russia, have a look at how Khodorkovsky signed a lot of Siberia over to a Rothschild in London, in the event of his own incapacitation. Khodorkovsky, BTW, had been spotted by a Rothschild in the first place. That’s why he got where he was.

    Also have a look at how one of the places Putin wanted to visit when he came to London was the Rothschild HQ in the City…because of ‘everything they’ve done for Russia’.

    If your interest is piqued, I’d suggest then comparing with the position of the Rothschilds in respect of Czechoslovak steel. Bits of paper had been prepared in London, and the final pay-off was in the 1950s.

    Then find out about the British nuclear sector and the big Canadian uranium deal in the 1950s. British nuclear power ‘lost money’ for decades. That wasn’t how things looked from the point of view of the people who sold the government the uranium, though.

    I doubt that you will get that far. You’ll probably just sneer and say I’m like Hitler. That’s whether or not you make silly gestures with your fingers.

    Frederic Morton’s (pro-Rothschild) book is useful.

    Snot-nosed colonialist Oxford academic Niall Ferguson’s series is less so, but even he mentions the Canadian deal.

    Have I been helpful?

  68. “There was an agreement to hammer these issues out in discussion, but I think you’ll find that western oligarchs scuppered it with violence.”

    Angrysoba asks what I mean by this.

    This is what I mean:

    “Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and opposition leaders have signed a deal to try to end the political crisis in the country.

    Under the agreement, a national unity government will be installed and a presidential poll will be held by the end of the year.

    The deal, reached after mediation by EU foreign ministers, also sees electoral reform and constitutional changes.

    Ukraine’s parliament has voted to reduce the president’s powers.

    It also approved laws which could see the release of jailed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko.

    The deal follows hours of talks and months of demonstrations on the streets of Kiev and other cities.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26289318

    And then the western oligarchs scuppered it with violence.

    “Fuck the EU”, eh.

  69. “And then the western oligarchs scuppered it with violence.”

    Who are these “Western oligarchs” and how did they scupper it with violence?

  70. You got a wriggler, Angrysoba. Don’t let it go!

  71. Angrysoba

    You suggested that the future be decided by Ukraine. I showed that such a deal had been done.

    We all know that this deal was subsequently undone, and the pro-western party with western assistance took power to itself claiming the whole country, with no agreement, no election, no nothing but moustachioed fascists prowling the streets.

    The pro-Russian group quite rightly thought this was a tad unfair and asked for protection from Russia.

    And so here we are.

    Had the fascists abided by the agreement then we’d be somewhere else, and let no one pretend otherwise.

  72. @N_

    Yes, I didn’t mean to imply that the missiles were merely defensive, more strategical.

    There seems to be an impression here that Russia doesn’t like NATO, this isn’t true, they like NATO because it has prevented Germany militarising and creates stability in Europe. These Russia sees as it’s greatest threats which history backs up.

    At the end of the Cold War Russia had concerns about the militarisation of Eastern Europe. Before they would agree to the unification of Germany they sought assurances from America which they received. Earlier this century America attempted to ignore these assurances by building missile defence systems in Poland. Russia retaliated by threatening to move short range missiles right to their borders which I assume would include the Ukrainian western border. America backed down.

    If America could control the Ukraine they could have a buffer zone and missile defence systems from the Black Sea to the Baltic and Russia wouldn’t be able to interfere so much with their plans for the New American Century.

  73. @Herbie. Agreed. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on whether the western oligarchy wants war with Russia. And if so, war on what scale?

    (And…don’t feed the trolls. Even ones who work in doughnuts.)

    Clearly psychological warfare has already started. The Budapest Memorandum is only being mentioned as part of that effort. Shmudapest Shmemorandum. If it obliges the US to ‘come to the aid’ of Ukraine, then it obliges Russia too.

    Lazy journalist swine haven’t even read it. They’re just cutting and pasting the press releases which come from the US and UK administrations. Think I’m joking? The Telegraph links to the wrong bloody document – a memorandum concerning Belarus!! Don’t they know the difference between Belarus and the Ukraine?

    Have standards really dropped so far at the Foreign Office’s psy-ops department? What a lazy bunch of sods! Where do they recruit people from to the Foreign Office nowadays? From the ‘gentlemen’s thirds’ battalions at Oxford?

    Anybody who wants to read the real document, click here and start reading at page 8.

    But I don’t want to side-track people. Barrack-room lawyers should look at bilateral arrangements concerning the Crimea which were made between the Ukraine and Russia. And at the legality of the overthrow of Yanukovych – not just under Ukrainian law, but under international law – including, in fact, the Budapest Memorandum concerning the Ukraine.

    Oh, and at whose snipers did what in Kiev.

    Which, frankly, you are not going to be able to nail down.

    Here’s point 6 of the said memorandum:

    The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

    Well – will they?

    But never mind all of that crap.

    Issues of war aren’t decided by lawyers, whether in the barrack-room or the Attorney General’s office.

    Will the Ukraine default on its debt?

    Have we moved on to a new style of IMF-type adjustment plan? Called ‘war’?

    @Angrysoba – Wikipedia is a western asset. See the above link to the Budapest Memorandum itself, for your perusal.

  74. Haha…Obama talking about international law; Hague banging on about sovereignty. Maybe ask Lord Goldsmith about both of those!

    Oh my giddy aunt…

    Speaking about territorial integrity, how’s Libya getting on these days? We haven’t heard much from there since John Simpson liberated Ras Lanuf. I hear it’s a bit of a failed state. Maybe it’s time for more humanitarian intervention.

    It would be nice to have a Prime Minister who isn’t a war criminal. Ah, them were the days…

  75. Herbie,

    You posted a link to an agreement (forged partly by EU ministers themselves!) that was not agreed to by most of the protesters and undone by security forces snipers shooting at demonstrators. Not by “western oligarchs” – whoever these shadowy figures are. Yanukovych was ousted by the Ukrainian parliament and disowned by his own party – The Party of Regions – for his conduct in having protesters shot. Again, not by “western oligarchs”.

  76. “@Angrysoba – Wikipedia is a western asset. See the above link to the Budapest Memorandum itself, for your perusal.”

    Why not just tell me exactly what is wrong about what I said about it.

  77. @ N_ and Clark – and anyone else evidencing an understanding of what is really going on here (and in the globalisation end-game thrust generally) and believing wider understanding of it is desperately needed in our ever-gullible, manipulated and herded western populations:

    Wikispooks is a genuine effort (with a proven track-record) to disseminate suppressed information more widely. Discussion is fair enough and it is NOT a discussion site; neither does it seek ‘recognition’ personal or otherwise. But it DOES need capable editors/contributors to further its effort.

    PS … @Clark: Thanks for Wikipedia edit-war link – That will go up on Wikispooks too.

  78. The Torygraph’s Harriet Alexander does her bit for queen and country by allowing her byline to go on an article entitled “Ukraine pleads for Britain and US to come to its rescue as Russia accused of ‘invasion’”. By ‘Ukraine’ is meant a number of unnamed MPs. Then she cuts and pastes about the Budapest Memorandum.

    What a dirty little scribe!

    OK so what do honourable people reckon?

    Does the western oligarchy want war with Russia? If so, they will certainly get it.

    Other possibilities include that a deal has already been struck. I think that’s unlikely, given what appear to be the military movements and given that there is no possibility of any war-stopping deal that involves Russia giving up the Crimea.

    If armed forces are already inside Russia (Belgorod region), trying to cut roads from Russia to the Crimea, someone is certainly trying to make war more likely than less likely.

  79. N_

    This is merely a tercio de varas and I expect the west is hoping that will be enough.

    We shouldn’t underestimate however the hatred for Russia and Russians amongst the former Warsaw Pact, nor indeed amongst US planners like Zbigniew Brzezinski, he of the Afghan campaign, and we know where that eventually led.

    Hatred doesn’t make for good policy making, and the west has been making some very poor choices of late.

    Hatred and stupidity can lead anywhere.

  80. Angrysoba

    Are you claiming that the Ukrainian parliament did not agree the deal?

    Are you claiming that the “protestors” were not backed by the west, including financially?

    Are you claiming that Victoria Nuland was not involved in discussions as to who should lead Ukraine?

    Don’t you remember who was responsible for those oh so important shootings in Venezuela, another US brokered coup effort.

  81. “Does the western oligarchy want war with Russia?”

    Hell no, they want war with Iran while avoiding war with Russia. They want to create a situation where Russia would have more to lose than to gain by interfering.

  82. Head of Russian region says armed groups tried to block road to Ukraine-Ifax

    http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/ukraine-crisis-road-idINL6N0LZ03820140302

  83. Harriet Alexander, referred to by N above, comes to the support of Israel and Taub. Says much about her stance.

    Israeli ambassador joins chorus of criticism of Amnesty report on Israel’s ‘trigger happy’ army

    Israel has reacted angrily to a report by Amnesty International which accused it of being “trigger happy,” saying that the study showed bias and “lack of experience”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10664842/Israeli-ambassador-joins-chorus-of-criticism-of-Amnesty-report-on-Israels-trigger-happy-army.html

    She also wrote about Pistorius whose trial starts on Monday. The media will drop Ukraine and go big on the trial. Sky News are even carrying it live.

  84. No, I am not making those claims. I am claiming that the Ukrainians themselves kicked Yanukovych out. And he fled to Russia. It’s pretty simple. Now Putin is deploying troops in the Crimea against the terms of the Budapest Memorandum. Here are the relevant parts that I have taken from the link N_ provided:

    “The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and
    the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
    Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on
    the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a
    non-nuclear-weapon State,
    Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to
    eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a
    specified period of time,
    Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation,
    including the end of the Cold War, which have brought
    about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.
    Confirm the following:
    1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in
    accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act,
    to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the
    existing borders of Ukraine.
    2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the
    threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
    political independence of Ukraine, and that none of
    their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except
    in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the
    Charter of the United Nations.”

    You can surely see that Russia has violated the terms, and your attempts to smokescreen with an irrelevant article about an agreement that was signed amid the violence, still does not explain how deploying Russian troops to the Crimea is not a violation.

    Oh, and who are these “Western oligarchs” anyway? You still have not explained this despite my asking you three times.

  85. Herbie, Angrysoba doesn’t seem to be denying those things you mention, but rather pointing out other things that happened too. Let’s not have a war here; there’s enough going on in Ukraine.

    Angrysoba, links are always good. Do you have one about the snipers?

    Please everyone, don’t assume that others have read the same things you’ve read yourself. No one has that much time, and the world is too big and complex to fit into any one human mind. Cooperation is our only hope of getting a reasonably complete picture.

  86. Angrysoba @10.35-

    Here’s rundown of Ukrainian oligarch; the article succinctly outlines their twists and turns to the prevailing political winds. Firtash and Poroshenko between them could undoubtedly have the clout and the funds(if given the nod by Nuland and her chums)to scupper the deal initially arrived at, which would have meant elections this December, and Yanukovitch holding the reins until then-

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101435404

    Craig is right to call Putin a total hypocrite on his selective application of the self determination principle. Sadly, hypocrisy is the prerogative of all major power players , both past and present. Britain and France defended self determination in Europe at Versailles in 1919 when denying the same to their colonial subjects. US support for democracy and apple pie in the Americas has, since around 1900, also been very selective- and is forgotten when the outcomes are contrary to US corporate interests (United Fruit in 1954, ITT in 1973 and so on).

  87. Craig

    Putin’s genocidal policies, or Blair’s and Cameron’s?

  88. “Oh, and who are these “Western oligarchs” anyway?”

    They’re like really really rich people. Some make their money by selling dodgy gadgets or in the provision of dodgy services. Mostly they just thieve from the public treasury.

    You know. Privatised profits and socialised losses.

    And of course they want to make the world safe for rich people like themselves, hence the wars, invasions and general slaughter we see all around.

  89. @Angrysoba: “Why not just tell me exactly what is wrong about what I said about it.

    My remark wasn’t aimed at what you said about it. It was aimed at the way that the only link you gave was to the article at Wikipedia. I consider the Wikipedia article to be western propaganda in the usual cloak of ‘neutrality’.

    The first section after the “Content” section is entitled “Relevance to the 2014 Crimean crisis”. Its opening sentences say

    1) unidentified troops have “seized or blockaded” various airports and “other strategic sites” in the Crimea,

    (Establishment of the ‘issue’. Others could easily have been chosen in its place.)

    2) “official Ukrainian sources” say they’re Russian, “likely placing Russia in violation of the Budapest Memorandum”,

    (Positive statement. Veracity suggested by use of word “official”, even if citation is to US media. Absence of conjunction between clauses, together with the absence of a subject in the second clause, suggests that if they are Russian then the truth of the second, dependent clause is almost a foregone conclusion.)

    and 3) the Russian Foreign Ministry has confirmed some troop movements but says they’re within the scope of bilateral agreements.

    (Response. Everybody knows it’s usually what’s said first that counts most. “Bilateral agreements” left unspecified. Use of the word “but” to suggest that the explanation may be false.)

    It would be possible to choose words and arrange statements differently, so as not to give such an anti-Russian slant.

  90. Angrysoba, you asked about “western oligarchs” and the money supply. Did you read my link?:

    http://pando.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government-documents-show/

    It certainly mentions more than “western oligarchs”. It links to a lot of further sources.

    Pierre Morad Omidyar is a French-born Iranian American entrepreneur and philanthropist, who is the founder and chairman of the eBay auction site. [...] In 2013, he announced he would be creating and financing First Look Media, a journalism venture to include Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras, and Jeremy Scahill.

  91. Angrysoba

    Surely the West in intevening in Ukraine’s internal affairs has violated the terms of the Memorandum you cite?

    That would make it null and void wouldn’t it?

  92. It gets worse on the BBC.

    Andrew Marr discusses Ukraine with Max Hastings and Jacqui Smith – Smith a Home Secretary even worse and sillier than May and Hastings, the old warhorse being paid by the BBC by way of a TV programme, The Necessary War, to flog his book, Catastrophe – Europe Goes to War 1914.

    Marr spoke to the BBC’s reporter, Christian Fraser in Sevastopol, at the start by saying ‘I know that your colleague John Simpson tried to get in but was stopped, foolishly not wearing a burka….’ Who the f*** do these types think they are? That was Marr’s idea of a joke presumably.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9UzcQxZL_o

    PS Simpson is on a train to Crimea so do not fear. He will save the situation for mankind. Do you remember him in Baghdad?

    Hastings sounds as if he has a few lbs of plums in his mouth.

  93. The cnbc link I gave earlier also includes a video showing some events from 18 Feb (the day when 11 policemen where killed by ‘demonstrators’)- events which some peace loving, international law abiding posters here would prefer to overlook.

  94. N_, we speak of ‘Wikipedia’, but of course we mean English Wikipedia – I’m referring to English the language rather than the country throughout this comment.

    English Wikipedia of course reflects the bias of English media, which of course is dominated by the US; that’s the way Wikipedia’s ‘verifiable sources’ rule is bound to work out. I have no doubt that various government, secret service and corporate teams (from many countries) do a lot of deliberately biased editing at Wikipedia; we have good documentation of the pro-Israel groups that do so, for instance.

    Nonetheless, anyone can edit Wikipedia, so it remains less centralised than any single corporate media source. Nothing’s perfect, but many Wikipedians, myself included, are just doing their best.

    What we really need is for John Goss or others who can read Russian to go and look at article histories and talk pages on the Russian Wikipedia, and report back here with translations. Of course, Russian government employees will be busy propagandising the Russian Wikipedia, just as the US/UK teams will be trying to knock the English Wikipedia into their own preferred form.

  95. OldMark, 12:13 pm

    events which some peace loving, international law abiding posters here would prefer to overlook

    Please assume they just don’t know about it. This is all too much for any one person to know all that’s going on. Accusations can’t help.

  96. “Marr spoke to the BBC’s reporter, Christian Fraser in Sevastopol, at the start by saying ‘I know that your colleague John Simpson tried to get in but was stopped, foolishly not wearing a burka….’ Who the f*** do these types think they are? That was Marr’s idea of a joke presumably.”

    Yes it was a joke Mary. It’s a reference to the Russian occupation of Afghanistan when John Simpson did get in by wearing a burka and has had his leg pulled about it by his colleagues ever since.

  97. Reference claims of legitimacy for Ukrainian parliament decisions following the EU brokered agreement with Yanukovych which it endorsed then promptly broke.

    This link goes a long way to explaining that and subsequent decisions. Our friendly terrorist thug Sasha Biliy and his string-pullers again. It is also worth noting that ALL subsequent decisions have been made by what can only be described as a ‘rump’ of the original 450 elected members – the remainder having either withdrawn to the relative safety of their Eastern region constituencies or simply declining the requirement that do the bidding of the terrorists like the one so ably intimidating their colleagues in that video.

    So I repeat my earlier assertion: Unless and until the Ukrainian parliament can muster a quorum free from the intimidation of gun-toting terrorists in its own chamber, Viktor Yanukovitch remains the only constitutionally legal representative of the Ukrainian state.

    As for ‘Security Force’ snipers shooting protestors; Does that REALLY need an answer? REALLY??. ANYONE seriously advancing such a claim is either naive or a committed promoter of the US_NATO agenda and official narrative of events

  98. N_, have you ever explored an article history, a talk page, or any of the individual contributors at Wikipedia? For instance, you can see everything I’ve edited here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Clark42

    By looking at User Contributions, you can assess the bias of any individual Wikipedia editor. This can be very useful; find the propagandist, and see what they’ve been up to.

  99. Here’s Nuland’s boy and unelected PM of Ukraine, Arseniy “Yats” Yatsenyuk, whining about the situation he and his backers created.

    Saakashvili Mark II.

    This chap isn’t about freedom for anyone but bankers, bosses and other ne’er do wells. His only function is to rape Ukraine and sell its resources off cheaply to his western oligarch mates, same as they do everywhere else they get their foot in the door.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iYEFn7X0lm8wQnwI_G9423dUB0bA?docId=0f79ff2c-7d2b-427f-8778-57786f430fc2

  100. ‘It’s a reference to the Russian occupation of Afghanistan when John Simpson did get in by wearing a burka…..’

    Good job Mrs May wasn’t around. She would have had him into Belmarsh and then off to solitary in a Supermax in the US.

  101. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 12:55 pm

    When I read some of the comments here I cannot but help of another political grouping that hated the UK and US, wasn’t took keen on the Jews, falsely attached socialist to its name and was also quite happy to enter into deals that allowed a Russian autocrat to engage in a land grab.

  102. Here’s Dmitry Orlov’s take on what’s happened in the Ukraine.

    Victims of western media propaganda will find it difficult, but anyone who is still buying that propaganda has only themselves to blame. Western media have been caught lying time and time again.

    http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/reichstag-fire-in-kiev.html?m=1

  103. Res Diss

    You’re very poorly informed.

    I think you’ll find that Jews are under threat in Ukraine, from those fascists you support:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-the-rebirth-of-fascism-in-europe/5366852

  104. “Good job Mrs May wasn’t around. She would have had him into Belmarsh and then off to solitary in a Supermax in the US.”

    It was in the days when Muslims were freedom fighters not terrorists.

  105. “Ukrainian Rabbi Moshe Reuven Azman, called on Kiev’s Jews to leave the city and even the country if possible, fearing that the city’s Jews will be victimized in the chaos, Israeli daily Maariv reported Friday.

    “I told my congregation to leave the city center or the city all together and if possible the country too,” Rabbi Azman told Maariv. “I don’t want to tempt fate,” he added, “but there are constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions.” ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.575732

  106. Herbie, please don’t assume that Resident Dissident supports fascists.

    Resident Dissident, if you dispute any evidence, please refute it with links, not insinuations about contributors.

    I’m sick of the sound of my own voice on this matter. DON’T ESCALATE!

  107. Thanks for keeping a cool head here Clark and for pointing to the fervent re writing of wikipedia that is occuring.

    Putin a hypocrite? why does he not use his gas lever then? he has the power to turn on the freeze but he’s not doing it. Most likely because this will also effect Europe, his Baltic gas pipeline alone can’t supply Europe’s needs.

    It would not be surprising that some resource hunting oligarchs now train their thoughts on Russias vast resource wealth, seeing that it is only defended by ex KGB and some flighty oligarchs who rather live in leafy London for fear of being apprehended or taxed too much in Russia.

    I think harbouring these people is a dangerous two way game and they should not get British nationality because they have misappropriated their countries money. How long before they engage in our politics, how many MP’s will be paid to join the Friends of Russia club?

    I have watched the video of Sasha Billy, and his physical and verbal fascist tirade, as yet untranslated by our resident Russian speakers, sounds ominous, I would have left the country if these types are trying to get their hands on me, it is no wonder Yanukovich did a runner.

    Now what was Sasha Billy saying to the state prosecutor?

  108. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 1:11 pm

    Herbie

    I don’t support any fascists anywhere – I notice Zhirinovsky is visiting the Crimea along with the invasion troops so I think you will find that there are fascists on both sides or the argument. If you know anything about that part of the world you would know that anti-Semitism is something that still finds support today in Russia as well as the Ukraine.

  109. Well, Res Diss

    The good rabbi wasn’t calling for his flock to leave Kiev until the western backed fascists rolled into town, now was he?

    I’m correct that you supported this coup, aren’t I, or do you just support bits of it?

    It’s worth asking do you support all western backed coups or just some of them or none of them.

  110. Comments are closed on this article, which I find worrying. That’s the whole article pasted below; nothing more.

    http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/ukraine-crisis-road-idINL6N0LZ03820140302

    (Reuters) – The governor of Russia’s Belgorod region said on Sunday armed groups had tried to cut off a road leading to Ukraine, Interfax news agency reported.

    “Armed men are roaming the area … There was an attempt to close off the road from Moscow to Crimea,” Yevgeny Savchenko was quoted as saying about events on Saturday. “This is really troubling.”

  111. Craig makes a valid argument against territorial integrity which is the thrust of his piece. Pity Craig said, “That is what is so amusing about the deluded left wingers supporting him[Putin] against the nationalists of Kiev, which somehow weakened that thrust.

    Personally I embrace Putin for his stand against the destruction of Iraq/Libya and his bold reactions to the Syrian dominion stratagem from UKUSIS prepotence.

    Some excellent posts here by those that ‘get’ the Ukraine/Syrian connection.

  112. Clark,

    In answer to your question about that Pando article, I must say that my expectations were low when I saw it was written by Mark Ames who used to be the owner and editor of the Exile, until Ames later appeared on Russia Today making weird “documentaries” about how Russia was a great place and a good investment choice.

    So it is pretty rich indeed that he claims Omidyar is some all-controlling megalomaniac who “co-financed the “coup” in Ukraine with USAID, also has exclusive access to the NSA secrets”. It’s all part of Ames patting himself on the back and telling himself and anyone who is bothered to read his stuff what a brave and edgy journalist he is, and Greenwald rightly takes him to task on this, dismissing his claim about funding the Ukrainian uprising as “laughable hyperbole” in his reply:

    “The Pando article adopts the tone of bold investigative journalism that intrepidly dug deep into secret materials and uncovered a “shocking” bombshell (“Step out of the shadows…. Pierre Omidyar”). But as I just discovered with literally 5 minutes of Googling, the Omidyar Network’s support for the Ukrainian group in question, Centre UA, has long been publicly known: because the Omidyar Network announced the investment at the time in a press release and then explained it on its website. ”

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/01/journalistic-independence/

    Another person quoted by Ames is Marcy Wheeler who says of Ames’s article:

    “I don’t see any evidence here that those donations were explicitly intended to pay for regime change (indeed, Ames’ evidence for that post-dates the awarding of the grant and leaves out the bit about grassroots networking, though I suspect Rybachuk can be found saying he wanted to support more grassroots change before 2011, too), unless you presume transparency and better governance equates to regime change.”

    http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/03/01/of-neo-fascists-and-smiley-face-neoliberals/

    And of course, that still conveniently leaves out the fact that Yanukovych was voted out by the Ukrainian parliament.

  113. Craig has a new post. Nothing that we say or think will change any of the actions of the gangsters in charge in Washington or London. NATO are meeting tomorrow.

  114. Clark,

    “Angrysoba, links are always good. Do you have one about the snipers?”

    Yes, here:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/20/ukraine-snipers-kiev-hotel-makeshift-morgue

    and here:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26333141

  115. Herbie,

    “Surely the West in intevening in Ukraine’s internal affairs has violated the terms of the Memorandum you cite?

    That would make it null and void wouldn’t it?”

    No, Herbie, because nothing the West did was a breach of those terms. However, with Putin disrespecting the borders of Ukraine and buying into the assumption that Crimea is Russian, he has violated Ukraine’s sovereignty. Or do you suppose that international law is null and void whenever someone breaks the law?

    How would that work in our daily life? I saw someone steal a loaf of bread therefore the law is now null and void. Is that your argument? Sounds a bit silly, doesn’t it?

  116. Angrysoba, thanks for the critique on the Pando article. Nevertheless, money is coming from somewhere; have you seen the videos? There’s some sort of independent paramilitary force, all done out in heavy duty clothing, helmets, masks and shields. They seem quite regimented, and under orders. Surely that must have been prepared in some way? And it must have needed money.

  117. Here’s one of Ames’s risible “myth-busting” shows on Russia Today where he argues that the streets of Moscow are perfectly safe and nobody needs to worry about gangsters or violence:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gubFQMNxZio&list=PLBC203EA5758E11C7

    Of course, it is simply not true. When I went to Moscow I saw some graffiti signs which apparently without irony celebrated the Nazis. It was around the time of Hitler’s birthday which is a big day for the far-right in Russia, it seems. That night we were out in a club and a guy wearing a Manchester United T-shirt told my friend that he had best not be in the club if he knew what was good for him. Never worked out if it was a threat or a helpful warning. I also know a guy from Cameroon who used to play volleyball for a Russian team who said that he would never go out at night as black people are quite likely to be beaten up or worse in Moscow.

  118. Angrysoba

    I’d have thought that organising a coup in another country was a violation of international law.

    No?

    As a result of that coup the new unelected govt then threatened to tear up agreements on Russia’s Crimean base.

    Aren’t the Russians entitled to protect that interest, which itself is only threatened by the west’s own violation of international law?

  119. It was not a Western-backed coup. The Ukrainian parliament ousted Yanukovych who ran away to Russia. Not sure why you are having trouble getting that bit. Why does that give Putin the right to send troops into Ukraine?

  120. Angrysoba

    “It was not a Western-backed coup. The Ukrainian parliament ousted Yanukovych who ran away to Russia.”

    Well, I think anyone watching these events will understand the west’s part in them even if you do not. We’ve seen the pattern often enough.

    You say that all is fine because, “The Ukrainian parliament ousted Yanukovych”.

    Two questions

    1. Did this parliament oust the president properly and according to the constitution?

    2. Were members of this parliament voting under threat or fear of violence?

    You’ll have seen this chap threatening a Ukrainian Attorney General:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT35J5C3EWs#t=30

  121. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:08 pm

    “And of course, that still conveniently leaves out the fact that Yanukovych was voted out by the Ukrainian parliament.”
    _____________________-

    A parliament in which – lest we conveniently forget – Mr Yanukovych’s party is amply represented.

    So even some of his own cronies appear to have got fed up with him.

  122. Perhaps habby knows whether the president was lawfully ousted by the parliament, and indeed whether members feared for their safety with all the fascists running about the place and additionally were all members who wished to be present in fact present.

    Or not.

  123. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:17 pm

    Herbie

    “Well, I think anyone watching these events will understand the west’s part in them even if you do not.”
    ________________________

    Pretty feeble, Herbie.

    Sounds a bit like “Only Herbie and those gifted with special insight can really see through the veil of deceit and understand what’s going on”, doesn’t it.

    Having read all the posts carefully, I really think you should call it a day; you’ve clearly been out-argued and you are out of your league.

  124. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:22 pm

    Herbie

    “Perhaps habby knows whether the president was lawfully ousted by the parliament, and indeed whether members feared for their safety with all the fascists running about the place and additionally were all members who wished to be present in fact present.

    Or not.”
    ____________________

    Well, do you? After all, you’re the one making the claim, aren’t you.

    So how about you telling us

    1/. by which article(s) of the Constitution was the Rada acting illegally?

    2/. how many members has the Rada,, how many of that membership voted, and what were the actual voting figures?

    Now, answer that…..or shut up.

  125. habby

    The west’s part in Ukraine is plain for all to see. It’s very very feeble to pretend otherwise, but please yourself.

    Anyway, just answer the questions on the parliament’s legitimacy of action.

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Was the president ousted lawfully?

    3. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    Thanks

  126. Under cover of a rescue mission to ‘save’ American students in Grenada.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada

    “While the invasion enjoyed broad public support in the United States,[5] and received support from some sectors in Grenada from local groups who viewed the post-coup regime as illegitimate,[6] it was criticized by the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United Nations General Assembly, which condemned it as “a flagrant violation of international law”.[7] The U.S. awarded more than 5,000 medals for merit and valor.[8][9]“

  127. “The full-fledged civil war lasted for over twelve years, and saw extreme violence from both sides. It also included the deliberate terrorizing and targeting of civilians by death squads, the recruitment of child soldiers, and other violations of human rights, mostly by the United States backed military.[14] The United States contributed to the conflict by providing large amounts of military aid to the government of El Salvador during the Carter[15] and Reagan administrations despite significant opposition from the American public.[16] An unknown number of people “disappeared” during the conflict and the UN reports that more than 75,000 were killed.[17]
    In 1990, the UN began peace”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvadoran_Civil_War

    And then, there is the Sandanistas……shall I continue?

  128. Where did it go? once again….Allende was elected.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état

    “The United States government, which had worked to create the conditions for the coup,[9] promptly recognized the junta government and supported it in consolidating power.[10] A weak insurgent movement against the Pinochet government was maintained inside Chile by elements sympathetic to the former Allende government. An internationally supported plebiscite in 1988 eventually removed Pinochet from power.”

    International law, dispensed without bias or prejudice.

  129. John Kerry says Russia is employing 19th Century gunboat diplomacy in the 21st Century. Not entirely true, Ukrainian navy boss/flagship of Ukrainian navy defecting to Crimea, that has to be:

    ‘Operation Swiftboat’

  130. Ba'al Zevul

    3 Mar, 2014 - 9:19 am

    The smart money seems to be pulling out of Moscow. Not that this will worry an ex-KGB man much, but it may act as a brake on escalation. Personally I think he’ll content himself with Crimea, and there’s sod-all the West can actually do about this.

    http://www.dw.de/russian-stock-exchanges-take-a-tumble-over-crimea-conflict/a-17468927

  131. It’s not correct that there had never been a Ukrainian national state until 25 years ago. There was one from 1917-1921, the Ukrainian People’s Republic (interspersed for most of 1918 by the Ukrainian State), apart from much earlier ‘states’ such as Kievan Rus and the Cossack Hetmanate.

    You may be right though about the futility of trying to maintain Ukraine’s current borders against the will of the respective ethnicities now that the previous status quo has broken down.

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