Freemasonry and Empire

by craig on April 29, 2014 11:46 pm in Uncategorized

Five years ago I knew almost nothing about Freemasonry except that it is believed to be often a vehicle for corrupt fixes between businesses and the various arms of government, which I suspect is very probably true.  But what Freemasons did, or believed in, I had really very little idea.  Writing my book on Alexander Burnes required me to learn a great deal, because the Burnes family were not just very active Freemasons but had a profound international influence on the organization.

My conclusion about Freemasonry is that it became widely established as part of the spirit of rational enquiry that informed the eighteenth century enlightenment.  It had the same motivation as Unitarianism, which thrived around the same time  - it was striving towards a form of Deism that allowed people to move towards a belief in God while abandoning the obvious irrational mumbo-jumbo of Christian miracles and the divinity of Christ.  There are obvious parallels with the French revolutionary cult of the Supreme Being.  It was therefore very friendly to other monotheistic religions and looked to provide a kind of lowest common denominator religious synthesis.  The whole project was then dressed up in a great deal of “secret” ritual borrowed from crafts guilds.  That Freemasonry was so successful in aristocratic and educated circles was simple because it was they who also propelled the Enlightenment.

As time went on, for most members it became just a club to make good business contacts – the commitment of “brothers” to help each other in a secret society including a lot of the wealthy was originally well-intended but obviously bound to become a conduit of corruption. Most members would probably, from about 1820 on, have been very surprised by my analysis of its intellectual and religious origins.  They probably still would be today.  It’s just a club for most.

But what I was surprised to find, and of this I am certain, is that Freemasonry’s insistence that all members were equal, of whatever colour and creed, played a very important role as a counterweight to the increasing nineteenth century British Empire philosophy of racial superiority and religious and cultural arrogance.  Freemasonry actively helped turn the tide among the governing classes and directly impacted the increasing anti-colonial beliefs of the British governing classes from the 1920′s on.  A very high proportion indeed of British colonial administrators and officers were Freemasons.

We have a caricature view of Rudyard Kipling now; he was by no means the apostle of Imperialism he has somehow become in popular belief.  I know his soldier’s dialect writing is annoying.  I find it helps to speak it out loud.  But although it is sentimental, his poem The Mother Lodge does contain the germ of a very real truth about the impact of Freemasonry on the British view of race in India.  We’d say ’twas ‘ighly curious, An’ we’d all ride ‘ome to bed,
With Mo’ammed, God, an’ Shiva, Changin’ pickets in our ‘ead.  The same was true in Egypt, at least.  Remember many lodges operated on a far higher social level than the one described in this poem, and those too were mixed.

I appreciate this posting is going to annoy pretty well everyone.  Oh well.  No, I am not a Mason.

Humour me and read it out loud:

The Mother Lodge

There was Rundle, Station Master,
An’ Beazeley of the Rail,
An’ ‘Ackman, Commissariat,
An’ Donkin’ o’ the Jail;
An’ Blake, Conductor-Sargent,
Our Master twice was ‘e,
With ‘im that kept the Europe-shop,
Old Framjee Eduljee.

Outside — “Sergeant!  Sir!  Salute!  Salaam!”
Inside — “Brother”, an’ it doesn’t do no ‘arm.
We met upon the Level an’ we parted on the Square,
An’ I was Junior Deacon in my Mother-Lodge out there!

We’d Bola Nath, Accountant,
An’ Saul the Aden Jew,
An’ Din Mohammed, draughtsman
Of the Survey Office too;
There was Babu Chuckerbutty,
An’ Amir Singh the Sikh,
An’ Castro from the fittin’-sheds,
The Roman Catholick!

We ‘adn’t good regalia,
An’ our Lodge was old an’ bare,
But we knew the Ancient Landmarks,
An’ we kep’ ‘em to a hair;
An’ lookin’ on it backwards
It often strikes me thus,
There ain’t such things as infidels,
Excep’, per’aps, it’s us.

For monthly, after Labour,
We’d all sit down and smoke
(We dursn’t give no banquits,
Lest a Brother’s caste were broke),
An’ man on man got talkin’
Religion an’ the rest,
An’ every man comparin’
Of the God ‘e knew the best.

So man on man got talkin’,
An’ not a Brother stirred
Till mornin’ waked the parrots
An’ that dam’ brain-fever-bird;
We’d say ’twas ‘ighly curious,
An’ we’d all ride ‘ome to bed,
With Mo’ammed, God, an’ Shiva
Changin’ pickets in our ‘ead.

Full oft on Guv’ment service
This rovin’ foot ‘ath pressed,
An’ bore fraternal greetin’s
To the Lodges east an’ west,
Accordin’ as commanded
From Kohat to Singapore,
But I wish that I might see them
In my Mother-Lodge once more!

I wish that I might see them,
My Brethren black an’ brown,
With the trichies smellin’ pleasant
An’ the hog-darn passin’ down;
An’ the old khansamah snorin’
On the bottle-khana floor,
Like a Master in good standing
With my Mother-Lodge once more!

Outside — “Sergeant!  Sir!  Salute!  Salaam!”
Inside — “Brother”, an’ it doesn’t do no ‘arm.
We met upon the Level an’ we parted on the Square,
An’ I was Junior Deacon in my Mother-Lodge out there!

I might add in clarity that I honour the various  peoples who struggled against the Empire, and who still struggle against Empires today.  I by no means denigrate their achievement.  But there is no doubt at all that the demise of most of the British Empire (sadly it hasn’t all gone yet) was hastened by the fact that the majority of the British governing classes had come themselves to believe the colonies should be free, certainly by 1945 and arguably sooner.

Unfortunately since about 1975 public opinion has been moulded into a rigid neo-conservative mindset, and neo-imperialism increasingly looks like the old variety.  If you didn’t live through it, it must be hard now to believe that the British “elite” once held quite left wing opinions, and of course some ideologically motivated would wish to deny it as not fitting their model of society.  But it was so,

 

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153 Comments

  1. I think that it’s only in Scotland/NO thst it has metastasized into something more disagreeable

  2. NO = Northern Ireland

  3. Jr Q

    The relationship in West Scotland between freemasons and Orange lodges seems to be a unique bit of unpleasantness. But I wonder if the extent of the links between the two is exaggerated? Or were you talking of something else? I should say that is outside the area I have been studying both geographically and temporally – but certainly there was no Orange link in what I have studied.

  4. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 12:36 am

    I think the principles of Freemasonry are like the Sermon on the Mount. The sincerest of intentions will eventually be suborned by ambition and avarice, no matter how sacred those vows may be.

  5. If you didn’t live through it, it must be hard now to believe that the British “elite” once held quite left wing opinions, and of course some ideologically motivated would wish to deny it as not fitting their model of society. But it was so.

    Such “left-wing” opinions were, in the nineteenth century, at least, considered not left-wing but liberal, for example Thomas Macaulay’s Minute on Indian education, which sought to promote education that would provide India with an elite able to match that of the West in philosophy, mathematics and the sciences.

    As for Kipling, he was certainly not a left-winger, he was a conservative who respected human diversity and wished to preserve it:

    A MAN should, whatever happens, keep to his own caste, race, and breed. Let the White go to the White and the Black to the Black. Then, whatever trouble falls is in the ordinary course of things—neither sudden, alien, nor unexpected. … (Plain Tales from the Hills — http://www.telelib.com/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/prose/PlainTales/beyondpale.html)

    But Kipling was no racist, if by that one means a person who regards of of another race somehow necessarily inferior or less worthy than oneself, as the moving story of Mohammed Din makes clear (http://canspeccy.blogspot.ca/2011/11/mohammed-din.html), and the characterization of the superb, half-breed character, Kim, Friend-of-all-the-World.

    Your account of Nineteenth Century Masonry,as a philosophical and moralistic movement is consistent with Tolstoy’s research as related in the experience of Pierre in War and Peace.

  6. Freemasonry is a major force in the legal and political communities where I live. It is known to have significant membership among Lawyers, Politicians, and Police Officers, not to mention the Secret Services. My own experience is that it is certainly not encouraging responsible behavior amongst its membership.

    It may not have always been like this. What I think happens is that in time secret societies like Freemasonry stop following ideals and start selfishly serving the self-interest of Elites and of their members; these same societies that once supported freedom can become a threat to it. This is what happened to the Mafia and the Triads which in their early days were decent societies and not the crime gangs they have become. I would suggest that something similar is happening to freemasonry.

    Quite possibly in Victorian times this was an organization that did public good, but the picture that most people have today is of an organization whose members have their snouts firmly planted in the public trough. My own family was once very masonic as was my wife’s. Yet in my view JFK had the truth of it when he said this – “The very word “secrecy” is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings”

  7. They sound like nice people, I’m sure they claim to do a lot for charity too.
    It’s like the fucking Secret Seven, these people are fantasist imbelic dangerous twats.

    Where is the conscience of these believers in supernatural supreme beings and such mumbo-jumbo – proving unquestionably they’re mental defectives – when oaths are made to defend and protect their fellow weirdos, right or wrong, i.e. wrong, as when else would they ever need such cover. How does that oath work in practice, say when their fellow mason is a loud-mouthed bigoted little Napoleon antagonising, humiliating intimidating everyone unfortunate enough to cross his path, who knows he can forever behave objectionably and criminally with impunity and never be answerable to anyone, to their victims or to society.

  8. Mason: noun: A weak incomplete individual, often found huddled in bizarre ritual attire together with others of their order, pooling their weaknesses into a seething palpable mass of odiousness.

    So often we find the same recurring phenomenon of human detritus that can’t stand alone, collectivising their inadequacies and prejudices: religions, cults, political parties, clubs, societies, racial or religious supremacists, football supporters, eugenicists hierarchies of every kind -the pack instinct, and so easily led by self-declared chosen ones, mystics and false phony gods, shining exemplars of all possible baseness. Initiates are so frequently found on their knees, as their most recently acquired trait – walking upright – hasn’t yet been fully mastered and gets a bit difficult to keep up often times.

  9. “Yet in my view JFK had the truth of it when he said this – “The very word “secrecy” is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings”

    Roderick Russell do you think JFK might have still been in denial about the real-life dealings of his father Joe?

  10. Like most social organisations, the Freemasons is in decline and has recently had to become more open and accountable to attract new members.

    I recently joined the Oddfellows, a friendly society that bears some superficial resemblance to the Freemasons. Before the welfare state, working people used to join a friendly society to gain access to a doctor, receive sickness benefit etc. Unfortunately, friendly societies too are in decline, rendered unnecessary by the welfare state and suffering from the general decline in civic participation, and increase in apathy and atomisation among the population (except Muslims, who are one group in society who are very socially cohesive).

  11. I would also add that Common Purpose is sometimes referred to as “the Freemasons for public sector managers”.

  12. I think you’ve developed a romantic view on Freemasonry, and as a romantic myself I can understand this. Kipling was, no doubt one of the better poets, none more so than in his oft-quoted by Masons poem “If”. My own favourite is “The Way through the Woods”. But there are others not so politically correct, though I have no doubt written jocularly, like “The Betrothed” which contains the line “A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke.” Kipling had few equals in rhythm and pace.

    Your romantic view about the inclusion of ‘blacks’ and ‘browns’ falls flat on its face when you look at the English and Scottish lodges where there were practically none (except those visiting from abroad). Those opposed to the slave trade included masons but the campaigns were run by caring Quakers and Anglicans and other Christians while the trade itself was run by many Quakers who did not have lodges for ordinary slaves and did not work towards emancipation. The part of our Empire where Kipling writes about was also where native Indians who tried to wrest back some of the land taken from them, were fired from cannons on the parade ground as an example to anyone else who thought of rising above his station.

    When you mentioned what you discovered on the previous thread I gave my opinion before seeing this thread.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/corruption-and-fear-in-the-uk/#comment-454944

  13. “Those opposed to the slave trade included masons but the campaigns were run by caring Quakers and Anglicans and other Christians while the trade itself was run by many Quakers who did not have lodges for ordinary slaves and did not work towards emancipation.”

    should read:

    “Those opposed to the slave trade included masons but the campaigns were run by caring Quakers and Anglicans and other Christians while the trade itself was run by many Masons who did not have lodges for ordinary slaves and did not work towards emancipation.”

    When will we have edit facilities?

  14. I think that anti-Empire feeling amongst the intelligent part of the British elite was as much caused by their knowledge that the Empire had become a horrible deadweight on the British economy.

    There’s a couple of Kipling masonic short stories. From memory, the first was about a group of British officers in the trenches who attempted to keep their spirits up by reading Jane Austen to each other and roaring with laughter. (Kipling himself found doing this to be the only way to raise himself and his deeply depressed family after the death of his son in the trenches).

    The second story is about a shell-shocked lag in the regiment who was the servant in the officer’s mess where these readings took place. He formed the opinion that the Jane they referred to was some sort of god and later, in civilian life, introduced her worship as a sort of cult in the West London masonic lodge he was a member of.

  15. I too have come across the dodgy influence of freemasons at various places of work. This is an interesting post and thanks for that poem, new to me. Kipling’s line about a Catholic is perhaps over-hopeful though: despite various (mason-influenced?) claims it has never been possible for Catholics to be freemasons. A great little summary (which also offers a rather different historical analysis) is here, for under £2 worth getting even if one dislikes Catholics:-

    http://www.ctsbooks.org/freemasonry-and-the-christian-faith

  16. A little pub in Worth Matravers, Dorset near the stone quarries where they used to serve the beer through an opening in the wall over a shelf on a stable door.

    http://squareandcompasspub.co.uk/images/header-images/2013_hd_main.jpg

    http://squareandcompasspub.co.uk/

    The origins…. on the square… etc

  17. Kipling also wrote short stories about Freemasonry, and other poems which I think are better than the one you quote.

    See the short stories “In the Interests of the Brethren”, “The Janeites”, and “A Madonna of the Trenches” and the poem “Banquet Night” in the volume of short stories Debits and Credits (1926).

    They are about Freemasonry and soldiers with PTSD shortly after WWI.

    The stories are all here:
    http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/kipling/rudyard/debits/contents.html

    “In the Interests of the Brethren” is the introduction to the Lodge ‘Faith and Works E.C. 5837′.
    “The Janeites” is a story told in the Lodge about a group of Jane Austen enthusiasts in the trenches.
    “A Madonna of the Trenches” is a tale of love, death and apparitions told in the Lodge.

  18. Geoff, I believe that the Catholic Church has advised against the anti-Christian nature of Freemasonry (some of the ritual is the complete opposite of Christianity like making Darkness Visible) but it cannot stop Catholics joining, and occasionally they do. Even more disturbing is that the former Pope Ratzinger was a member of the Bilderberg Group and took part allegedly in their rituals of child sacrifice. When this was revealed he became one of the few popes to retire while in office. Catholics too have a pyramidal Secret Society structure through Opus Dei.

  19. Represented in modern day Israel.

    http://www.freemasonry.org.il/

    Rabbi Jonathan Romain gives it the OK.
    http://news.reformjudaism.org.uk/assembly-of-rabbis/are-the-freemasons-kosher.html

    ~~

    A load of outdated mumbo jumbo IMHO which surely will not survive in the internet age when more and more eyes are being opened. Membership of any secret society is at odds in a so called democracy. Women are excluded and in this country, it is headed by the Queen’s cousin. What more is there to be said?

  20. Ba'al Zevul (Moving Up And Down Again)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 8:59 am

    Absolutely spot on, Craig. Damn good post. Respect. No quibbles. I associates myself with them sentiments. And I’m not a Mason, though Kipling is one of my literary heroes. Viewed by today’s PC standards, he’s probably completely unacceptable. By the standards of his time he was pretty liberal, and embarrassingly likely to see the POV of the Army ranker and the Indian in the street…

    Mark D has a good point re Kipling’s Masonic short stories.

    OTOH, probably not all Masonic lodges function like Kipling’s these days (the local constabulary are likely to be well represented). Masonry, after all, is about social networking as much as anything else. The only religious criterion, btw, is the belief in God. Catholics are as eligible as anyone else – their absence is due more to Catholic dogma than anything in Masonry.

  21. Mary, Dr Jonathan Romain is either not aware of the connection between the Kabbalah and Freemasonry or chooses to ignore it. When I first looked into Freemasonry in the seventies and eighties I came across a pro-masonic book called “A treasury of Masonic Thought” which contained epithets from famous Masons. At that time information was not so freely available and books like this were kept in the stack. On the dust jacket there were a number of Masonic symbols all of which I knew about anyway. However on a subsequent visit I was served the book but it came without the dust-jacket. To this day I do not know why. Perhaps somebody had stolen it, or more likely, I thought then, an overprotective librarian had removed it to protect the ‘secrets’.

  22. When I was a teenager I had a part-time job washing up in the Marine Hotel, Aberystwyth. The local masons used to hold their annual dinner there. They took great pains to exclude all hotel staff when the time came to making their speeches, including posting ‘sentries’ at all the doors, and covering up the glass portholes in the serving doors, but a resourceful teenage boy can easily outwit such low rent security measures. So I used to hide behind the curtains on the stage and listen to the speeches. And I can tell you straight, they may have been a bunch of small time small town businessmen but they spent the whole night discussing crazy, sub-Blofeldian schemes for world domination. If you need any help with your research, Craig, just let me know.

  23. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Apr, 2014 - 9:24 am

    Another Psaki PR triumph!

    “LEE: Right, but you do accept that there are people who live under Israeli administration, live under Israeli authority right now, who do not have equal rights, correct?

    PSAKI: I don’t think I’m going to analyze this further.

    LEE: Well, I mean, look, the secretary is getting it from both sides here. The pro-Israel people are furious that he would even deign to utter the word — the “A” word even if it was referring to something happening in the future, or possibly happening in the future. The other side is upset that the secretary is not using it — using the “A” word to describe how Israel is right now. Given that — given that circumstance — you acknowledge that that’s the situation, right?

    PSAKI: Mmm hmm.”

    Unless she’s a man, how can the appointment of this person as official State Dept spokesperson be rationally explained?

    Four more minutes of this stuff… https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YVGFNAGDwZA#t=0

    John. 12 53am (Corruption and Fear thread)

    Re Masons, “No jokes now about why I’m not one.”

    It is well known that masons, young and old, human and canine, post on the relevant thread.

  24. “And I can tell you straight, they may have been a bunch of small time small town businessmen but they spent the whole night discussing crazy, sub-Blofeldian schemes for world domination.”

    KOWN, it sounds more like a Louie Knight episode to me.

    But yes lodges, and members, are kept in darkness and many of the inner sanctums have no portholes to cover up. Lodge ceremonies are more boring and repetitious than religious services, with archaic language like “So mote it be” and other curiosities.

    Freemasonry may have originated in the eighteenth century but it had precursory secret societies which also took people in. Francis Bacon belonged to a secret society. Christopher Marlowe was a secret government spy.

    The phrase “I’ve been hoodwinked” has its roots in masonry as does “a conspiracy of silence”. Yep, another conspiracy theory.

  25. Ba'al Zevul (Moving Up And Down Again)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 9:38 am

    The relationship in West Scotland between freemasons and Orange lodges seems to be a unique bit of unpleasantness. But I wonder if the extent of the links between the two is exaggerated?

    Part of the perception must be because the Orange Lodges are clearly modelled on the Masonic setup, including the vestments and hierarchies. There are probably people who are members of both, and it may be relevant to note that the nominal high heid yins in UK Masonry are royals: no secret…the Hanoverian interest is undoubted, and Butcher Cumberland was probably a member, so some historical angst is deducible;

    http://freemasonry.london.museum/os/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/English-Royal-Freemasons.pdf

    http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/features/item/813-the-royal-connection-john-hamill-examines-the-connection-between-masonry-and-royalty

  26. “So I used to hide behind the curtains on the stage and listen to the speeches.”

    Please tell me it’s true! :)

  27. Bugger (the Panda)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 10:25 am

    Craig, as far as I am aware there no connection ML and the OO in West Central Scotland. There may be individuals who are members of both organisations but I would guess very few.

    I am though, aware of Roman Catholics and Priests who are members as are many Jews and maybe nowadays, Muslims.

    There are hundreds of Masonic Lodges still active throughout the former Empire and in a harmonius relationship with Scottish Freemasonry. The World looks to Scotland as the foundation of modern speculative Fremasonry, not England although they try very hard to pretend it is their “possession.

  28. Craid studiously steered around onbe very important fact, that the freemason is an all male society that professes to know best, that is embedded in our society today, officers of councils, the police represent an unnatural and odious lot making decisions that are based on split loyalties and their gender blinkered views since they were founded, a male cabal.

    In Burnes times women might have been less inclined to stop hubby doing funny rituals and business decisions, pining for his late night return, but today, Freemasonry is, imho, the arch feminsit cause, an all male club that lords it ‘ueber alles’, makes decisions that come from a male only perspective and which make decisions based on their split loyalties, deals they have already done in the lodge, that have implications for females in society.

    Should there be a ban on freemasonry in public services? Should we trust that those who wheel and deal, man to man, can make decisions that are best for all of society, that they do not let their split loyalties come to the fore?

    never, freemasonry is detrimental to society as it has evolved and no nice words about 18th. century innocence and cultural seeking for ever more exotic deities that might have existed can change the fact that freemasons are a secretive male only club that have no rights to influence and contravene societies drive for a more genderbalanced world today.

    Freemasons, most likely, were responsible for the gender disabilities that have plagued society, a testosterone laden distortion which should not exist anymore today.

    Smash Freemasonry, outlaw it, sack freemasons in the public sector and replace them with women, that should somewhat readress the gender disbalance they’d caused!

  29. sorry for the mistrakes, its ever so easy to pressx go and an edit button would help this blog to grammatical excellence, indeed, academy status will be just around the corner.

  30. Bugger (the Panda)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 10:38 am

    Although I don’t know with certainty, Kipling could well have been a Freemason. Read his novel, the Man Who Would be King. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is King.

    Incidentally, there are loads of similar “secret societies” or even “societies with secrets” ranging from the Buffalos, the Woodsmen and of course the Hibernians, which is religiously based.

    If it keeps them off the streets, in a club, where is the harm. It is forbidden to talk business in a Masonic Hall but on the golf course that is a different matter. Business can be sown up any golf course whether the players are or are not members of any of the aformentioned organisations.

    Incidentally there was one Lodge which met in the afternoons because the members worked at night. It was full of actors, singers, magicians and other artistes as well people who worked for the Press and Television. Meetings were open to all, if the were members of the organisation.

  31. Bugger (the Panda)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 10:40 am

    Nevermind

    In the USA there are mixed Lodges and even female only ones as well as associated organisations. Not sure about the UK or elsewhere.

  32. “If you didn’t live through it, it must be hard now to believe that the British “elite” once held quite left wing opinions”

    Er, yes it is difficult to believe. In fact I don’t. Your grand sounding statement is an establishment perspective designed to rewrite history.

    Your “left wing” is not left wing at all. Your “left wing” means, at best, gently liberal.

    You dismiss, or are ignorant of, the huge radical left wing throughout Europe in the first half of the last century. The left wing which forced elites to change:

    The syndicalists of Britain and Ireland shot down by the British army. Striking Welsh miners bayonetted by the British army. Liverpool run by strike committees as navy guns trained on the city. Jam packer women strikes of South London beaten by Police. Soldier mutinies in Portsmouth, Southampton and Etaples…The French army mutinies. The Italian army mutinies. The German revolution. The Russian revolution…etc, etc, et bloody cetera.

    These were left wing. The struggle of working class people. The capitulations of your “elites” was in no way “left wing”.

  33. The Knights Templars learnt many things in their time living in Palestine, they went native so to speak. When the Pope gave the King of France permission to kill them and use their vast wealth to fight a war they fled and took with them the secrets of the Kabbal. The Scots, like the St Clairs, fled to Scotland, Robert the Bruce was king at the time and the Pope didn’t like him much anyway.

    Many of them were masons, having built and maintained a chain of castles across Europe. They continued to meet in secret, keep in touch. When in later times the Free Masons, a friendly society for masons, declined and their membership fell the descendants of the Templars had no difficulty taking over their assets just by being the majority of members.

    An interesting family the St Clairs, a very interesting family for those interested in Free Masonry in Scotland.

  34. “In the USA there are mixed Lodges and even female only ones as well as associated organisations. Not sure about the UK or elsewhere.”

    Do you know who one of the USA’s founders and the 9th President in Congress Assembled was?

    Interesting.

  35. Bugger (the Panda)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 11:09 am

    Fred

    Ever scrutinised a 1 Dollar bill?

  36. Ba'al Zevul (Moving Up And Down Again)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 11:13 am

    Although I don’t know with certainty, Kipling could well have been a Freemason.

    Yes, of course Kipling was a Mason:

    http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/kipling.html

    Fascinating piece, if you haven’t found it already, Craig…

    In ²Something of Myself² Kipling writes: ³In 1885, I was made a Freemason by dispensation (being under age) in The Lodge of Hope and Perseverance 782 E.C. because the Lodge hoped for a good Secretary. They did not get him, but I helped, and got Father to advise me in decorating the bare walls of the Masonic Hall with hangings after the prescription of King Solomon¹s Temple. Here I met Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, members of the Araya and Brahmo Samaj, and a Jewish Tyler, who was a priest and butcher to his little community in the city. So yet another world was opened to me which I needed.² We get a little more detail in a letter Kipling wrote in the London Times, dated March 28, 1935: ³ In reply to your letter I was Secretary for some years of the Lodge of Hope and Perseverance No. 782, English Constitution which included Brethren of at least four different creeds. I was entered by a member of the Brahmo Samaj (a Hindu), passed by a Mohammedan, and raised by an Englishman. Our Tyler was an Indian Jew. We met, of course, on the level and the only difference that anyone would notice was that at our banquets some of the Brethren, who were debarred by caste rules from eating food not ceremoniously prepared, sat over empty plates. I had the good fortune to be able to arrange a series of informal lectures by Brethren of various faiths, on baptismal ceremonies of their religions.²

    Kipling also received the Mark Master degree in a Lahore Mark Lodge and affiliated with a Craft Lodge in Allahabad, Bengal. Later, in England he affiliated as an honorary member of the Motherland Lodge, No. 3861 in London. He was also a member of the Authors¹ Lodge, No. 3456, and a founder-member of the Lodge Builders of the Silent Cities, No. 4948, which was connected with the War Graves Commission and which was so named at Kipling¹s suggestion. Another Masonic association was formed when he became Poet Laureate of the famous ³Canongate Kilwinning, No. 2² in Edinburgh, the Lodge of which Robert Burns is said to have served in the same office. Enquiry of Brattleboro Lodge, No. 102, in Vermont, discloses no record of Rudyard Kipling having visited during his residence in the community. Years later, however, he accepted a fellowship in the Philalethes Society, an organization of Masonic writers formed in the United States in 1928. The February 1963 issue of ³The Philalethes², a publication of this Society, recalls that, before the original list of forty Fellows was closed in 1932, Kipling was proposed as the fortieth Fellow. When the Secretary wrote to advise him that they wished to honour the author of ³My Mother Lodge², ³The Man Who Would Be King², ³Kim² and other Masonic stories, Kipling accepted….(snip)

  37. Oooh there’s a mason in our local rotary! There’s a pyramid on the dollar! The Bilderburgs sacrafice children! The British elites were left wing!

    I suggest Craig mocking Trowbridge is a lone nutter conspiracy.

  38. “Although I don’t know with certainty, Kipling could well have been a Freemason.” Yes, Kipling was a mason, as was Walter Scott and Robert Burns. Your quote about in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king originated from Desiderus Erasmus though I think William Golding borrowed it in “Lord of the flies”. Golding was probably a mason. He wrote a book called “Darkness Visible” a quote from masonic writings but also the title of a disclosure on freemasonry by Walton Hannah. Golding also won the Nobel prize for literature. Nobel was a mason and there is a strong tradition of awarding all the Nobel prizes predominantly to masons. It’s part of the elitism in not having a level playing field.

  39. “Ever scrutinised a 1 Dollar bill?”

    I’ve looked into the supposed masonic symbols.

    I’m not convinced.

  40. “In the USA there are mixed Lodges and even female only ones as well as associated organisations. Not sure about the UK or elsewhere.”

    https://www.owf.org.uk/

    Masons do not liberally join in discussions about masonry and prefer to let the discussion die out rather than fan the flames. Noteworthy has been the absence of regular dissenters. That should bring them out.

  41. Craig
    I suspect that the diverse masonic cults are in decline along with the falling living standards. I am probably one of the lucky few who can nowadays afford to have the sleeve of my jacket and trouser leg cut off just for the ceremonial fun. Thus said the Lord to the candidates of this pernicious cult – stay away or borrow a jacket from your beloved neighbour! The various lodges are like football clubs. Some are rich and powerful, like P2 in Italy once was, others poor and insignificant that are probably specially set up to confuse the fools.

  42. Craig – an excellent post which has produced thoughtful and varied comments. I’m grateful to Mark D for his pointer towards some Kipling works that were new to me: two of my favourites are the dramatic monologues, McAndrew’s Hymn (“Predestination in the stride o’ yon connectin’-rod”) and The `Mary Gloster`.

    I’ve just checked the index of Christopher Andrews’ 1,032 pp “The Defence of the Realm – The Authorized History of MI5″ and find no mention in it of “mason” (apart from Roy) or of “freemason”. That’s a rather good example of “the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.” Holmes had a relevant observation in “The Norwood Builder”: “You mentioned your name as if I should recognize it, but beyond the obvious facts that you are a bachelor, a solicitor, a Freemason, and an asthmatic, I know nothing whatever about you.”

  43. As a continuation of the absence of dissenters if you switch Habbabreak back on for a few minutes you’ll find Habbabkuk was commenting in his usual prolific and discursive way right up to Craig mentioning that about his masonic discovery – then nothing, silence. Oh well, a bit like Sofia’s magic phrase for getting rid of RD.

  44. Phil,

    the designer of the dollar bill for some unknown reason opted for an image of a pyramid rather than a frog. Geddit?

  45. “As a continuation of the absence of dissenters if you switch Habbabreak back on for a few minutes you’ll find Habbabkuk was commenting in his usual prolific and discursive way right up to Craig mentioning that about his masonic discovery – then nothing, silence. Oh well, a bit like Sofia’s magic phrase for getting rid of RD.”

    Speaking as someone who doesn’t hide his head under the blankets I’d appreciate it if you didn’t switch it off for the purposes of goading him before switching it back on again.

  46. Lightweight research. Assumes all Freemasons are equal and ignores the paedophile networks that are Freemasons.

  47. “Speaking as someone who doesn’t hide his head under the blankets I’d appreciate it if you didn’t switch it off for the purposes of goading him before switching it back on again.”

    It was intended Fred for those who were using Habbabreak to demonstrate a point. I am sure most people do not use Habbabreak all the time. It would be very good if none of us needed a break. I was not goading him just making an observation that since freemasonry has been mentioned he clammed up. I do not know if anything can be read into this, but I can say one thing, Habbabkuk is one of the biggest goaders who squat here.

  48. “the designer of the dollar bill for some unknown reason opted for an image of a pyramid rather than a frog. Geddit?”

    When studying history it’s important to see it from the point of view of those at the time not by present day standards.

    Today everyone can read and write, symbols aren’t too important though we see their legacy in things like tradesmen’s signs. Then many couldn’t read and write and particularly in America if they could it would be in different languages. People communicated with symbols.

    I see the pyramid as a symbol of strength and stability and the eye as the symbol of prudence and wisdom. I don’t know that either is a particularly masonic symbol.

    I could be wrong, I can’t know what was going through the mind of the man who designed the dollar bill, that’s my take on it.

  49. You have opened a door with this topic. FM is almost something of a Rorschach test. It is endlessly fascinating. In its principles and effects it has some resemblance to religion* and many another ism, namely not only well intended, but also developed at a high level of understanding and human development, but in practice, just as with many a religion or ism (eg socialism / capitalism) over time it may fall short in practice and that may be the fault of its practitioners. Some may suggest that as a hive or a rootstock loses its vitality it is time for the bees to find a new hive / for the plant to be grafted elsewhere. There is an interesting centre for research into FM at Sheffield university. Some consider Francis Bacon to have been a founder, and New England to have been pioneered as a masonic new Atlantis, but as lovely (and masonic) as Vermont still is America as a whole has also not delivered as Bacon may have anticipated, but we are humans.

    (* of course what is a religion is a question for another day)

  50. For members of the ‘Scottish Rite’ on that Israeli masonic website I linked to, the following items are available.

    Tartan kippahs http://www.designkippah.com/design_kippah.html

    and on a government website, details of historic masonic tartans
    http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails.aspx?ref=1492

    Don’t know whether the tartans extend to masonic apron designs though.

    ;)

  51. My father was a Freemason, an officer in the Grand Lodge of Gibraltar. Masonic rules require members to do all they can to support each other, to look after each other and to keep each others’ lawful secrets.

    My father urged me join the ‘club’ on more than one occasion insisting membership was a ‘sure way’ to succeed in business and commerce.

    I never did despite fond memories of Masonic charity events and my mother looking glamorous for ‘Ladies Night’ once a year.

  52. Not too many years ago when I drove taxis for a time, I would pick up the ‘staff’, assorted drink-sodden misfits and local worthies from a local masonic lodge, they often took the same oddly circuitous route, instructing me to pause and park for a few minutes across from a busy Indian restaurant, part of a chain with branches in major west of Scotland towns, their reason for this was to wind down the windows and shout abuse at the restaurant staff at the door. “Take us past R—– Street, so we can shout abuse at ‘the Hamiltons’” was the reason they gave, The Hamiltons of course being masonic and West of Scotland racist slang, deriving from Hamilton Accies.

    Models of respectability and good citizenship these people.

  53. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Builders-Empire-Freemasonry-Imperialism-1717-1927/dp/0807830887

    By Jessica Harland-Jacobs

    With Look inside available on Amazon

  54. Any connection to the Dunblane Hamilton there Tony M?

    I imagine that setup was a masonic nest.

    My paternal grandfather was a mason and forbade my father and uncle from having anything to do with it.

  55. @ mary: No. What rhymes with Accies?

  56. Mark, my father too belonged to a secret society which I think was Freemasonry but before we were old enough to know. I can never recall him going to a lodge though I have myself subsequently been to open ladies’ night dinners and heard all the loyal toasts. There was a masonic representative at dad’s funeral. Like I have said, good men join the masons, and it is overtly charitable. However, it is structured in such a way that its brother members, work their ways through the various degrees, not knowing where it leads. For example the jewel, as masonic emblems are known, of a chaplain has an open book with “Holy Bible” written on it. By the time the mason is raised to grand chaplain the book is just an open book with no text. Its angels, as seen on the emblem of the President of the Board of General Purposes, have hairy Pan-like legs and cloven feet. Masonry is not suitable for Christians because of the way it bastardises Christian teachings.

    The antient charges and regulations instructs masons, among other things:

    “You promise to pay homage to the Grand Master for the time being, and to his Officers when duly installed, and strictly to conform to every Edict of the Grand Lodge.”

  57. Fred,

    to enlighten you about about the true and until this revelation, entirely secret purpose behind the design, is the power of the pyramid entangled in the power of the dollar. You may have heard that any pyramid can sharpen razors cf.
    http://www.iempowerself.com/84_pyramid_power.html
    but you probably have never realised that you can also use a one dollar bill to wrap your razor in it. Voilà, only one day later and your razor is as sharp as a razor. One can also use the dollar bill with the pyramid scheme to sharpen your mind. Should you have no kippah with a tartan pattern (thanks Mary for this info.)at home, just paste it on your forehead and experience the brightening of your mind almost immediately.

  58. Mary Hamilton Academicals (Accies) is a football team. It rhymes with a sland term for people from Pakistan.

  59. sland = slang

  60. The masonic judiciary of the USA, and the masonic state murder machine has botched up another execution since the EU have refused to supply drugs for this use.

    http://nsnbc.me/2014/04/30/oklahoma-lockett-dies-from-heart-failure-40-minutes-after-botched-execution/

    Sorry, trying to keep it on topic. Doesn’t quite work.

  61. Ba'al Zevul (Moving Up And Down Again)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 1:57 pm

    For example the jewel, as masonic emblems are known, of a chaplain has an open book with “Holy Bible” written on it. By the time the mason is raised to grand chaplain the book is just an open book with no text.
    The symbolism of this would be instantly appreciated by a Mevlevi Sufi:

    “The minute I heard my first love story,
    I started looking for you, not knowing
    how blind that was.
    Lovers don’t finally meet somewhere.
    They’re in each other all along.”

    (Rumi)

    It’s about abandoning what separates you from God. The book isn’t holy. It’s the word within, if you favour that line of discussion. The Knights Templar, I’ve long suspected, picked these ideas up in the Middle East, along with some new architectural skills.

    Its angels, as seen on the emblem of the President of the Board of General Purposes, have hairy Pan-like legs and cloven feet.

    Pan (Faunus) was a perfectly respectable Greek (Roman) god – and would nowadays be the god of the environment – until the Christians literally demonised him.

    Masonry is not suitable for Christians because of the way it bastardises Christian teachings.

    I am not at all sure that Christians are suitable for Masonry. The other side of that coin is that Christianity involves a person intervening between God and Man. Which may not have even been Christ’s intention. Most of Christianity is down to Paul’s voluminous exhortations, and, frankly, he looks like a bit of a Mandelson to me…

    But then, I’m appearing here as the Devil…

  62. Ba'al Zevul (Moving Up And Down Again)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 2:03 pm

    “silence is the language of god,
    all else is poor translation.”

    (Rumi)

    Ouch.

  63. “But then, I’m appearing here as the Devil…”

    Surprisingly I agree with most of what you say. The organised church can come between man and God but it is not exclusive in that anybody can be a member of the church and there is no secret initiation ceremony. And most churches do some good. Can’t agree with your assessment of Paul as Mandelson. That’s really offensive against a man, Paul, who spent years in prison for no crime other than being a converted Christian. Surely Ba’al you would prefer him being a Christian than a state tax-collector! :)

  64. NWOPR (MI6 Lodge) Incorporated – SECRET COMMUNICATION – SingInt32014xx.666

    Agent Murray,

    Operation LONE NUTTER is going exactly to plan. Continue to discredit T H Ford. He knows too much.

    Congratulations on the British Elites Are Left Wing insert. Inspired! On a masonic thread too. You judge them well. Agent Jones was wrong to doubt this.

    Invite Karel indoors. Agent Slog will return. XXXXXXXXXXX remains in place. Remember, at all times, as The Great Healey wrote in childblood, there is only one nutter. We are not nutters. Only one nutter and it’s him.

    END

    Do you like Brussels? The Big Frog is preparing to consider a tasty overseas post once Scotland is free. Free. Ha, ha. Ha ha, ha…

    XXX XX XXXXXXXXXXX

  65. While Masonry, like everything else British, got caught up in its expansion and contraction, seems to me that it started out being quite anti-English, centered in Edinburgh, opposed to imperialism, and quite pro-French in its outlook on life.

    It represented the philosophies of the North, opposed to everything that Henry Dundas stood for, and looked to covert discussions to lay bare everything that was true and good.

    Henry Brougham was one of its Masons.

  66. Ba'al Zevul (Moving Up And Down Again)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 2:46 pm

    Surely Ba’al you would prefer him being a Christian than a state tax-collector!

    He could be both. There is no dichotomy. The fact that his conversion, and dropping the tax job, are seen as meritorious, says something of the political nature of the Christ cult, as it then was. ‘Render unto Caesar’ implies no criticism of tax collectors. My Mandelson jibe is really based on his role as pretty well the sole source of Christianity as it is generally understood – I except Quakers from this, btw – and the defensible premiss that he got in through the door marked ‘Push’

    The intervention between God and Man I intended to refer to Christ – the symbolic Christ – rather than his church. According to John:

    I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    Was he so insistent on his own importance? I wonder:

    According to Luke (and Rumi):

    Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

  67. Thanks, Phil, was writing and struggling to get my post posted when yours appeared.

    Must have helped get passed the censor.

    Must have persuaded him that the butters will finally destroy themselves.

  68. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 2:57 pm

    Empire: Many feel Freemasons were instrumental in the creation of the State of Israel, and it’s no secret they want to rebuild Solomon’s Temple.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Masonic-Magician-Cagliostro-Egyptian/dp/1905857829

  69. Seems I can’t even see straight, as, up to now, every time I go to hit he n key, I get the b one.

  70. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 3:04 pm

  71. Ba’al, I’m afraid with scripture there are a lot of difficulties. To quote Paul, who did not know clearly himself, “Now we see through a glass darkly . . .” As to the deity side of Jesus I have difficulty because when asked how to pray his answer starts “Our father . . .” and when confronted by Pontius Pilate or the scribes as to whether he was the son of God he said so you say. For me the jury’s out. But from the stories I’ve read the instructions were quite clear:

    “You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say . . . turn the other cheek”. “Love your neighbours” think of people as though it was you in their position. Quite clearly Theresa May does not do that regarding Muslims. While it is not for me to judge her, I do, because if she became the proper Christian she puports to be Babar Ahmad and Talha Ahsan would never have gone to the US where they were tortured 23/24 hours a day in solitary confinement into a confession which would be useless in any proper court of law.

    Quakers are very good. I am fond of them. I went to a meeting on Sunday and came away uplifted.

  72. Thanks for that John. I did get there in the end. Not very familiar with the names of football teams even Scottish ones. Do you remember the TV announcer who used to read out the scores on Saturdays as the scores came up on the teleprinter? Everyone did the pools then and hoped to win a fortune of £75,000 or similar if they predicted the eight draws correctly. Another age. My father did not approve of my mother doing them. He was quite Victorian and called it gambling which he was against. Now the lottery is a prime time Saturday TV programme and embedded in the national psyche.

  73. @babushka – 6.10 am. Re comment “Roderick Russell do you think JFK might still have been in denial about the real life dealings of his father Joe”. Whatever his father’s dealings were, JFK’s quote on the dangers of secret societies still seems to me to be quite relevant. Was it not Adam Smith, himself a Freemason I think, who wrote “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public”.

  74. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 3:16 pm

    “People join the Masons not because it is a community group raising money for charity but for its “snob factor” and history, argues McConnachie. If this is overtaken by a transparent, inclusive approach then the organisation would be indistinguishable from many other dining clubs.

    “You’d have to ask – why would you want to be a Freemason rather than a Rotarian?”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17272611

  75. Yes John it was the most disgusting of murders by a state. Why do they still do it? Barbaric. At least we abandoned the death penalty. .

    Those convicted have to wait on ‘death row’ for years too whilst the lawyers wrangle

    My same father used to send telegrams to the PM appealing for clemency if a hanging was planned. The last such hanging took place in 1964. Only 50 years ago.

    See how many countries still have capital punishment.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_Kingdom

    ~~~

    Speaking of years past, RIP Bob Hoskins. Sad. Such a kindly looking man. He was brilliant in The Long Good Friday and Denis Potter’s Pennies from Heaven.

  76. Theresa is limiting the number of ‘stop and searches’. Attempting to look saintly prior to May 2015. I think she would like the top job.

    Police stop and search powers to be overhauled
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27224887

  77. There is no mystery if you just see things how people saw them at the time. Whoever he was he wasn’t a Christian, Christians hadn’t been invented yet, neither had Heaven and Hell.

    So who was the son of God? Adam was. How could he be Adam? It’s easy if you believe in reincarnation. Then you are Adam reborn, the father, son and Holy Ghost, the only one who can pay for Adam’s sin.

    The Romans deciding Heaven and Hell would be a better form of crowd control screwed things up.

  78. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 3:24 pm

  79. That short introduction to the Rothschilds Ben is illuminating. Of course many people are beholden to the Rothschilds including many Christians. Their wealth is incalculable. The people they can buy cannot be imagined. It is difficult too to remain clean. I have a Quaker friend who has nothing bad to say about them. Similarly you will find the Rothshcilds have donated to major art funds of many churches. How could you as a trustee of the church or receiving body criticise them. Unfortunately it boils down to how did they amass such wealth, the answer of which is mostly through war, and why do they finance the manufacture of weapons and governments? To be as rich as the Rothschilds must be a terrible burden.

  80. In an interview, when asked what he owed his parents, he said, “Confidence. My mum used to say to me, ‘If somebody doesn’t like you, fuck ‘em, they’ve got bad taste.’” When asked which living person he most despised, Hoskins named Tony Blair and claimed that “he’s done even more damage than Thatcher”.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Hoskins

  81. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 3:33 pm

    ” I have a Quaker friend who has nothing bad to say about them.”

    Indeed. Many sectarian religions have noble and sincere membership. At what level in the hierarchy do they inhabit? I suspect the lower are less informed of the grand design.

  82. Ba'al Zevul (Moving Up And Down Again)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 3:39 pm

    All that said about the Quakers, I’ve been to the Quaker meeting-house in Boston where the American Revolution kicked off…human beings tend to get in the way of the best principles.

  83. Never really examined what Brougham’s c critics and enemies really thought about him and why, but his Masonry background must have helped them think he was a subversive enemy of the Crown, given his drug, sexual, and covert excesses, explaining why they wanted to get rid of him in any way possible, short of assassination.

    And Hoskins was quite right about Blair, but Thatcher did not come in second for a lack of trying – it was just all those spies that Putin recruited which prevented us all from going up in smoke when she was to the triggering of the non-nuclear conclusion to the Cold WAr after Palme was assassinated.

  84. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 3:45 pm

  85. Mary 30 Apr, 2014 – 3:18 pm

    I do indeed Mary remember the eight draws. My father used to do it every week when we were children but gave up in the end. At five o’clock the presenter would read out “Queen of the South 1, Hamilton Academicals 0″ and go trhough the whole pools coupon with a different tenor in his voice depending as to whether it was a home win, or an away win, in which case the voice would rise on the pronunciation of the away team. A draw, which everybody wanted was delivered with a neutral voice. For a penny a line the prize money was a colossal £75,000 which would not even buy a house today.

    Talking of houses I climbed over the wall of Vernon Sangster’s house, he of Vernon’s Pools, on the outskirts of Douglas, Isle of Man, just to have a nosey and it was quite impressive. Believe me! Some young people were taking afternoon something or other on the lawn in front of the house. There were some big dogs, looked like Dobermanns to me, left me in doubt as to whether to go over and introduce myself. But I had not been invited so I chose not to. The Isle of Man was a bit of a leveller with people like Sangster, Sir Dudley Cunliffe Owen, who I played golf with once or twice, Norman Wisdom, with whom I was once in a film, though not in the Isle of Man, and Walter Greenwood, who very kindly dropped off some notes on writing for me when he learnt I was an aspiring writer.

    I saw ‘Love on the Dole’ done by Hall Green Little Theatre two or three weeks ago and it reminded me of the kindness of a successful writer. My mother had a meal with Bobbie Charlton, who sent his fish back, “I know my Dover sole, and that’s not Dover sole.” We are all the same, rich or poor. The poor want to be rich. The rich want to be richer. But deep down we are all quite fragile and insignificant in the great scheme of a higher authority.

  86. Phil,

    There is little point having a conversation with someone who wilfully does not hear or misconstrues the points you are making. I did not say the British elite are left wing. I said they were, sixty years ago. Tony Benn and Eric Lubbock were not isolated examples – neither for that matter were people like Philby Burgess and Maclean.

    To say that there was a period when left wing thought captured much of the social “elite” is not to deny the existence of working class movements. I very probably know more than you do about the instances you mention. But the problem with ideologues like yourself, is that your shallow determinism reduces humans to the level of Pavlov’s dogs, and denies the possibility of altruism. You don’t have to be working class to have left wing beliefs. To claim otherwise is a nasty form of prejudice.

  87. Ba'al Zevul (Moving Up And Down Again)

    30 Apr, 2014 - 4:42 pm

    Paul Revere – Freemason…

    http://www.mwsite.org/papers/PaulRevere.html

  88. What have you been smoking?

    The British rulers realised that changing technology meant they had to change their ideology, administration, military attitudes and the way they saw the map. They were never traditionalist, conservative, racist reactionaries first and foremost. Apart from a few morons, they always believed they had to get the ‘clever wogs’ and ‘clever niggers’ on their side. Cut them in on a slice of the action.

    The British imperial system changed a lot over time. They always loved change when it was in their interests. They brought it about. They were and are very practical.

    If you think freemasonry “actively helped turn the tide among the governing classes and directly impacted the increasing anti-colonial beliefs of the British governing classes from the 1920′s on”, you should be able to provide some practical examples of the causality being that way round.

    The 1920s were roughly speaking the time when freemasons in Britain stopped having public parades. Why? It was also the time when the line was laid down that nobody inside the org was to refer to the movement as a religion.

    The term “left wing” is of little meaning unless it denotes movements or ideas which favour the expropriation of the rich. At different times in the history of the world, there have been freemasons who have supported exactly that. For example, many freemasons died fighting for the Paris Commune in 1871. Print chapels in Paris were often both freemasonic and anarchist until recent times. And there are other examples too.

    You mention the Cult of the Supreme Being, but whilst that may sound awfully masonic to your ears, in 1877 the Grand Orient lodge in France allowed membership to those who didn’t believe in such a being. That’s why it’s still out of communion with the United Grand Lodge of England.

    As for the UGLE, you can’t take a monarchist organisation seriously when it talks about the brotherhood of all men. The words should burn the fuckers’ mouths.

  89. Craig 30 Apr, 2014 – 4:26 pm

    “I did not say the British elite are left wing.”

    I didn’t say you did. Straw man.

    “I said they were, sixty years ago.”

    No you didn’t. You didn’t mention 60 years until now. In your article you talk about the British elites during the decline of Empire. You mention the 1920s, the run up to 1945.

    “Tony Benn and Eric Lubbock were not isolated examples – neither for that matter were people like Philby Burgess and Maclean.”

    Hilarious. In your article you say “the majority of the British governing classes”. These people are not that. They are a million miles from “the majority of the British governing classes”. Also Benn and Lubbock were not politicians until decades after the decline of the British Empire. You really are grasping at straws.

    “I very probably know more than you do about the instances you mention.”

    Maybe you do or maybe you don’t. Either way it does not make your post more correct. It does make you more arrogant.

    “But the problem with ideologues like yourself, is that your shallow determinism reduces humans to the level of Pavlov’s dogs, and denies the possibility of altruism.”

    Idealogue yourself mate. You may find determinism shallow but you are merely postulating my determinism. Cheap name calling based on nothing.

    I am a big fan of altruism. I am myself altruistic. To be judged not so by someone who once made a killing working hard for empire and now earns as a celebrity “human rights activist” makes me laugh. Go f**k yourself.

    “You don’t have to be working class to have left wing beliefs. To claim otherwise is a nasty form of prejudice.”

    I didn’t claim any such thing. Another straw man from you.

  90. NWOPR (MI6 Lodge) Incorporated – SECRET COMMUNICATION – SingInt32015xx.666b

    Agent Murray,

    RE: Operation LONE NUTTER

    Freemasons. Left Wing Elites. Israel. Rothschild. Pyramids. Scripture. Alasteir Crowley. Adam Smith. Norman Wisdom. Bilderburg. Child Sacrifice. Tony Benn.

    A glorious cacophony! Time to plant another infowars link? You decide. More anti-nationalist nationalism required.

    Remember, we are not nutters, there is only one nutter and it’s him over there. Crush him with your air of superiority.

    END

    Do you like chocolate? They are suggesting a tasty EU nibble of a posting for you once Scotland is free. Free? Did I say free? Ha, ha. Ha ha, ha…

    XXX XX XXXXXXXXXXX

  91. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    30 Apr, 2014 - 6:00 pm

    Mr Goss

    “I was not goading him just making an observation that since freemasonry has been mentioned he clammed up. I do not know if anything can be read into this,..”
    ______________

    Nothing at all. Sorry!

  92. Phil

    Not sure what point you are making. If it is that the claim that Bilderbergers eat children is nuts, yes obviously that is nuts. I have never said there is only one nutter who comments on this blog. Generally I am extraordinarily tolerant about it.

  93. I know that the Rothschilds put money into charitable funds of all descriptions. Everything the Rothschilds do is not solely to make money but also to exert influence and sometimes even to support charities with no ties attached. Henry Rothschild, the gallery owner, made donations to Quaker meetings which apparently had no ties attached. The connections might come from earlier associations with Quaker bankers, Barclays and Lloyds. These banks no longer have the principles of the early Quakers who founded them. Similarly the Co-op Bank, which I have been with for thirty years, no longer sends out newsletters about its ethical banking practices and the Rochdale Pioneers would be turning in their graves.

    Anyway, it is very hard, even for people with the morals of Quakers, or anybody for that matter, to refuse donations, and Henry Rothschild could possibly be an exception – the white sheep of the family perhaps.

  94. Craig 30 Apr, 2014 – 6:14 pm

    “Phil, Not sure what point you are making.”

    My point is clear: to claim that the British establishment being left wing had anything to do with the decline of the British Empire is tosh. Absolute nonsense. As Empire declined, at it’s most progressive the establishment was somewhat liberal. The left wing pressure was always from outside of the establishment.

    To make such a claim for the left wing stinks of establishment rewriting history, misdescribing capitulation as gift, retreat as genorosity. It is a lie.

    “If it is that the claim that Bilderbergers eat children is nuts, yes obviously that is nuts. I have never said there is only one nutter who comments on this blog.”

    I guess now you are talking about my NWO SECRET COMMUNICATION spoofs. How did you know that was me?

    I thought they humourously made several points. About priorities of discussion, about all sort of things. However, they are not to be taken literally and they are probasbly not worth talking about. I can accept they are confused and not funny.

    “Generally I am extraordinarily tolerant about it.”

    Yes you are.

  95. Bilderbergers eating children would be an improvement as they spend all their time, lapping up whatever the Anglo-American covert government can cook up.

    Now it’s taking most seriously Moscow being behind everything disruptive in the Ukraine. Kerry told it that NSA intercepts have Moscow ordering its forces around, the same guys who arranged the takeovers of Georgia and the Crimea.

    Seems Putin doesn’t have a clue about what NSA has been up to, even though he has taken in its most dangerous leaker.

  96. “I wander thro’ each charter’d street,
    Near where the charter’d Thames does flow,
    And mark in every face I meet
    Marks of weakness, marks of woe. ”

    Blake’s accurately prophecies the corporate world of our own time. The menace of land enclosures remind us of the corporate world of Europe, which Craig so much admires, that enable US neo-imperialists to buy vast tracts of agricultural land in countries like Poland.

    Freemasonry was a cult that filled the religious vacuum of the utterly corrupt Roman Catholic Church in a re-distributed Protestant world of colonial brutal force.

    I refuse to belong even to the minor freemasonries of watching TV, belonging to Linkedin or belonging to a mosque sect of Islam, everyone patting eachother on the back at the size of their address book of like-slime.

    This article by Craig says more about who he is and where he is coming from than any previous one. He always gets like this at election times. The seeking of truth and the pursuit of power are two separate and opposing forces.

    Of course the colonial indulged in leftist sentiments. The absolute wreckage of the Muslim world in the last 20 years of our lifetimes is accompanied by swathes of journalistic hand-wringing.

    Nobody should forget that it was David Cameron who ignited the fire that is the Syrian civil war. it takes an awful lot of posing in shorts and piggy-backing your daughter to school to whitewash the igniting of wars on Muslims.

    I can’t understand why Craig reads the commentary of the colonial elite upon themselves. It’s like asking Lord Hurd about the minor’s strike, or Geoff Hoon about Iraq. The man he is writing a book about was a war criminal plain and simple, and freemasonry was one of the nasty little candles of false redemption that kept them going.

  97. Anyone wanna buy a goat?

    It’s well-used and walks a bit funny but it’ll be cheaper than a lawnmower…

  98. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) ! 30 Apr, 2014 – 6:00 pm

    “Nothing at all. Sorry!”

    Craig said “No, I am not a Mason.” That is plain and simple, no riddle, and not for the first time has he mentioned this.

    I ask if anything can be read into you having deserted the blog the moment Craig mentioned Freemasonry, so what I was seeking was a straight yes or no answer to are you a Freemason?

    Nothing at all could mean you don’t want me to know, which is your prerogative. If you answer one way or another, yes or no, I will accept it. It’s hardly earth-shattering knowledge.

  99. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 8:25 pm

    John; “Are you a Mason” Surely an answer will be given. There is extreme pride involved.

  100. Thanks Guano, you make an insightful observation beautifully. And I wish I had a garden to take on Jives’s hobbling goat.

  101. “Anyone wanna buy a goat?”

    Is it a male goat or a female goat?

  102. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    30 Apr, 2014 - 8:58 pm

    Mr Goss

    “I ask if anything can be read into you having deserted the blog the moment Craig mentioned Freemasonry, so what I was seeking was a straight yes or no answer to are you a Freemason?

    Nothing at all could mean you don’t want me to know, which is your prerogative. If you answer one way or another, yes or no, I will accept it. It’s hardly earth-shattering knowledge.”
    _________________

    You really are a very strange person indeed.

    I do not post anything on this thread – for which there could be several explanations.

    You – the self-proclaimed user of “Habbabreak” – are so worried by my absence that you post a comment which you now confirm was a roundabout way of asking me whether I’m a Freemason or not.

    I could just about understand why a comment (say) in favour of the govt’s economic strategy could justify the question ‘are you a Conservative’, but I’m very puzzled as to why the absence of a comment on Freemasonry should impel you to ask me if I’m a Freemason. To make an analogy: I believe you have never posted on human rights abuses in China, even in threads about human rights. Are you Chinese?

  103. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 9:00 pm

    He’s not Chinese, Are you a Mason?

  104. “If a diamond falls into mud it remains a diamond, if dust ascends to heaven it is still dust”

    Saadi of Shiraz

    There is essential truth everywhere.

  105. “It’s hardly earth-shattering knowledge.”

    Exactly. So why keep asking.

    Everyone (almost!) complains about Habbabkuk, but if he doesn’t appear, John and Mary are the first to start asking where he is.

    It’s like primary school in here.

  106. “In my 20′s I was of course, left wing. I say ‘of course’ not because everyone of my age had those views – a number of my friends did not – but because most young men who took any interest in politics, particularly European politics and the rise of fascism, were lift wing….”

    Tim Milne

    Later on he was not left wing and justifiably felt let down / betrayed by his school friend Philby, but there was a time when to be left wing was pretty much the done thing.

  107. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 9:47 pm

    “So why keep asking.” Why is H. so insistent on answers to queries when he supplies none to questions asked of him?

    Maybe you should ask H., Dre.

  108. An interesting post and I enjoyed reading it.

    I am old enough to remember the last gasp of lefty toffs, though they have largely been written out of history now – just don’t fit the narrative, I suppose.

    Another interesting feature of the British Empire in its last years was the willingness – even the eagerness, if that’s not too strong a word – to give subject peoples a half-way decent liberal and general education. All kinds of folk from West Indians to Palestinians got a better basic education than is given to British children today.

    Finally, I don’t want to get picky, but I would take issue with the bit about “obvious” mumbo-jumbo about miracles. Obvious? Really? What is a miracle anyway? Rainfall? Mobile phones?

    Humans tend to either be theistic or atheistic. A consequence of the former is the understanding that we live in a Universe of infinite possibilities. So, while there is clearly a temptation for scriptural writers to over-egg the pudding and make claims that are untrue to beguile the gullible masses, while they ain’t necessarily so, they ain’t necessarily not so.

  109. “when he supplies none to questions asked of him?”

    Neither does Mary. Two peas in a pod.

  110. After a long absence you come on and demonstrate how you are really good at stirring things Dreoilin. A lie – I have not mentioned anything here about Habbabkuk being missing.

    In any case there is already a sufficiency of vitriol coming out from other sources tonight.

  111. Mary
    “…you are really good at stirring things …there is already a sufficiency of vitriol coming out from other sources tonight.”

    Oooh ‘other sources’. No, that’s not stirring Mary, so you are not a crawling, sanctimonious hypocrite.

  112. today I eat a cake tomorrow its talking – a miracle.

    BTW The Man who would be King by Kipling is an interesting tale.

  113. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 10:30 pm

    I often hear people involved in competitive sports give all to the glory of God when they are blessed with a victory.

    I wonder who they thank when prayer for a miracle results in a loss.

  114. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    30 Apr, 2014 - 10:33 pm

    “In any case there is already a sufficiency of vitriol coming out from other sources tonight.”

    And also from Mary, on Squonk’s blog this evening:

    “Unpleasant vitriol coming over from Phil and Guano to Craig on the freemason thread. I want to say something but don’t want to start a slanging match. I hope he is not feeling hurt.”

  115. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 10:35 pm

    Hab; Are you high up in the Lodge hierarchy? Secretive, isn’t it?

  116. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    30 Apr, 2014 - 10:38 pm

    More parallel “discussion” from Squonk’s blog this evening:

    “I think Hab must be a Mason. His Roman-Catholic defensiveness in the past, along with his obfuscation on the question John asked is a harbinger.”

    Who cares?

    You worship him don’t you? Can’t live without him. Lay awake nights just thinking about him.

    That Habbabreak turned out just as I said it would didn’t it?”

    ___________

    The first comment comes from Ben Weedsmoker (he bogarts every joint),, and the reply is from grizzly old Fred (aka Victor Meldrew).

    Enjoy!

  117. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 10:40 pm

    Hab; Are you a Mason?

  118. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO, 30 Apr, 2014 – 8:25 pm

    Just back from the lodge :)

    But the answer to your question is no. I thought long and hard about it when I was approached, but thought I would research it first.

  119. I had a friend called Malcolm who was a Mason and a retired police officer; he died a couple of years ago. I think we came to be friends because we were both outsiders in our village; me for not hiding that I smoke weed, and him for being an ex-copper.

    Malcolm believed all sorts of odd things. He claimed to have seen UFOs, and panthers in the local Essex countryside. He’d often make racist or sexist remarks when speaking in general, but when he spoke of individuals he’d actually known he didn’t seem prejudiced at all. His outlook presented a confusing bunch of contradictions.

    I think probably most people are like that, but they just don’t show it so much.

  120. Fred, Jives will probably think you’re joking. Tell him what sort of goat you’d buy.

  121. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 11:53 pm

    “I think probably most people are like that, but they just don’t show it so much.”

    That’s the key to reducing bigotry, Clark. Having some commerce with ‘others’ gives a human face to what otherwise would be crass generalizations. You smoke weed? :)

  122. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    30 Apr, 2014 - 11:54 pm

    John; :)

  123. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) ! 30 Apr, 2014 – 8:58 pm

    “You really are a very strange person indeed.”

    In some ways I don’t fit the standard mould.

    “I do not post anything on this thread – for which there could be several explanations.”

    I agree. I’ve been out myself tonight. Is there another explanation from you?

    “You – the self-proclaimed user of “Habbabreak” – are so worried by my absence that you post a comment which you now confirm was a roundabout way of asking me whether I’m a Freemason or not.”

    I wasn’t worried. If you went away forever I would not be overly-concerned. I do not wish you ill of course. I don’t know you. I may even forget about your Avatar(s) and pseudonym(s) in time. You do not know whether I use Habbabreak or whether I just ignore you. in truth my observation had more to do with how inexplicably peaceful everything had suddenly become – like old times.

    Now it was a Wednesday night, the night the lodge meets, when I decided to ignore your comments after you tacitly supported torture in Guantanamo Bay. You need to look this up yourself because I got sick of asking you and made a decision before I went out if you had refused to answer when I got back, a well-known Habba trait, I would cease dealing with you.

    Also, without having Habbabreak off I would not have known about your desire to see me with a Russian gun up my arse shitting myself. So you see Habba (whoever you are) my concern is more to do with getting answers to questions. Because while I admit in some ways I am strange, there is not a contributor to this blog, in my opinion, stranger than you.

    As Ben said “Why is H. so insistent on answers to queries when he supplies none to questions asked of him?”

    Are you a Freemason?

  124. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    1 May, 2014 - 12:18 am

    John @ 12:38

    Well done, my Lad.

  125. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    1 May, 2014 - 1:21 am

    I’ve noticed Squonk is shut-down for some time now. Hab has reached the limit of his tolerance for ridicule.

    “IMPERIOUS REX”

  126. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    1 May, 2014 - 1:23 am

  127. Ben,

    A config file for the web server got set back to default when I was doing something else on squonk (translation: probable finger trouble on my part).

    All back to normal now. The downtime was 1 hour 22 minutes I believe.

  128. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    1 May, 2014 - 2:20 am

    Dang it. I was hoping Hab was a cartoon character we might recognize and relate to, AA As it is we’re back to where we started

    Is Hab a Mason?

  129. “Fred, Jives will probably think you’re joking.”

    He’d be right.

    So was he.

  130. Israel’s Supreme Court; plenty of Masonic symbolism here:
    http://snippits-and-slappits.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/israel-supreme-court-creation-of.html

  131. “I can’t understand why Craig reads the commentary of the colonial elite upon themselves.” Guano, good and fair point – the problem is not listening to what the colonial elite say about themselves, (you should always listen to what people say about themselves) the problem is if you fail to compare it to other information. Rather confusingly it has become known in the historiography of colonial studies as recovering the subaltern voice. Which is annoying as subaltern in common parlance means a junior military officer, whereas in this sense it means something like the voice of the subjugated.

    It depends on what history you are writing. If you are writing the history of India, then the lives of the British who lived there would not figure much, though some of their impact, particularly the English language is very significamt. And, if you don’t mind my saying so, had they not been there, you would not now be here. Which would be a bad thing!

    The Guano and Phil school is that the only history worth writing is that of the great mass of the working class. You know, those people who vote UKIP, drink lager and idolize Simon Cowell. Apparently they are much more interesting (Yawn).

  132. @ Phil http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/freemasonry-and-empire/#comment-455105

    Sharper than the proverbial serpent’s tongue, except it belongs to a male of the species.
    Earlier yesterday, the same commenter was like the house guest who is invited in, given hospitality and repays it with a blast of venom at the host.

    And if I wanted the school sneak to copy and paste my comment from another blog, I would have asked. Pathetic as per usual and definitely not here for the benefit of the blog for sure.

  133. I heard an interesting story about last night’s Masonic lodge meeting in Kings Heath, so thought I would share it since it’s topical. Apparently Masons have been using a Sports Club near to the lodge because there is only bottled beer available at the Masonic Lodge premises. The Sports Club is a private members’ club a bit like the lodge, and Masons, who have been using the Sports Club on a regular basis, were challenged to show they were members of the Sports Club. When it was revealed they were not members they were asked to leave. A handful of them ended up in a Kings Heath pub in their black suits.

    I think gatecrashing a private club is every bit as bad as climbing over the wall into the grounds of Vernon Sangster’s Douglas home, or hiding behind the curtains of the lodge at the Marine Hotel, Aberystwyth. Some people have no shame!

  134. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    1 May, 2014 - 11:23 am

    “And if I wanted the school sneak to copy and paste my comment from another blog, I would have asked. Pathetic as per usual and definitely not here for the benefit of the blog for sure.”
    ______________________

    Could the above be from the same Mary who has from time to time complained about people talking about her “behind her back” on this blog?

    Why, I do believe it could! :)

  135. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    1 May, 2014 - 11:26 am

    “…the same commenter was like the house guest who is invited in, given hospitality and repays it with a blast of venom at the host.”
    __________________

    As far as I’m aware, the host of this blog is called Craig Murray and not Mary.

    For the above venting to make sense, therefore, I would have had to unleash a blast of venom towards Craig .

    Could Mary or one of her surrogates please direct me towards said blast of venom?

    ********************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  136. Craig 1 May, 2014 – 9:44 am

    “The [Guano and] Phil school is that the only history worth writing is that of the great mass of the working class.”

    I have never said any such thing. Another straw man from you Craig.

    All these strawmen suggest you are simply too arrogant to acknowledge your claim that left wing British elites were responsible for the demise of the British empire is nonsense.

    “You know, those people who vote UKIP, drink lager and idolize Simon Cowell. Apparently they are much more interesting (Yawn).”

    You reveal your snobbery and insecurities with this poor attempt at humour and/or baiting.

  137. Phil

    Left wing British elites made the demise of Empire quicker and less painful. They were a factor in its ending. That is undeniably true. Of course they were not the sole cause. Complex events never had a sole cause.

  138. Craig 1 May, 2014 – 11:33 am
    “Phil, Left wing British elites made the demise of Empire quicker and less painful.”

    Go on, name them.

    Name people in the establishment who were left wing relative to the masses of the left wing outside of the establishment, as empire declined. They simply do not exist. The establishment was always to the right of the left wing masses.

  139. Habbabkuk, 11:26 am: not you; Mary was referring to Phil.

  140. Phil, have you read spycatcher, or Carroll Quigley’s The Anglo-American Establishment? There have been socialist aspects to the personalities of many “elite” people. More in a while…

  141. Clark 1 May, 2014 – 12:36 pm
    “Phil, have you read Spycatcher, or Carroll Quigley’s The Anglo-American Establishment? There have been socialist aspects to the personalities of many “elite” people.”

    Clark, as I said previously, I do not accept a few lefties in the second half of the 20th century constitute the British establishment during the decline of Empire.

  142. Clearly the ad bots have learned maths.

  143. Phil, being “of the left” or “of the right” is a complex matter; we simplify it with those two terms. But what do such terms really refer to? “Leftness” and “rightness” are each made up from multiple factors, such as the extent to which we think people should be treated equally, or treated as equals (which doesn’t seem quite the same to me), or the circumstances in which a person thinks that a certain industry should be nationalised, or the extent to which wealth should be redistributed, etc. etc..

    Then there’s innate personality versus upbringing. Someone may be innately altruistic, but have been conditioned to hold right-ish beliefs. Or they may be highly competitive, but a Christian upbringing has conditioned them to be generous.

    All this makes it too complex to simply place a person somewhere on a left-right continuum.

    My own view is that there are multiple human motivations which are innate (“instinctive” may not be quite the right word). Motivations such as altruism, competitiveness, generosity, xenophobia and xenophilia (everyone has both; they are not mutually exclusive), favouritism of one’s own family, belief in freedom of individuals, tendency to submit or dominate, etc.. Everyone has all of these in varying degrees, which is just normal variation within the human species.

    These motivations, together with our upbringing and our environment, give rise to our opinions, some of which we express. But those opinions can never be fully consistent with each other, because the motivations were never a system of logic, but instead adaptations to help survival in diverse situations within our wildly varying world. in the human as an organism, the motivations switch on or off in response to circumstances, whereas opinions are supposed to be consistent.

    When we are adult we become involved in “politics”; either directly within the political system, or as voters, or merely by discussing current affairs with other people. It is only at this stage that we classify ourselves, and are classified by others, as being of the left or of the right; a gross oversimplification of the underlying opinions, themselves a set complex syntheses and compromises between the innate motivations.

  144. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    1 May, 2014 - 3:23 pm

    Phil

    “Name people in the establishment who were left wing relative to the masses of the left wing outside of the establishment, as empire declined. They simply do not exist. The establishment was always to the right of the left wing masses.”
    ___________________

    I’d advise investing in a second-hand copy of Noel Annan’s “Our Age”.

  145. “The relationship in West Scotland between freemasons and Orange lodges seems to be a unique bit of unpleasantness”

    Yes, I was referring to that but, as you say, it may be more anecdotal than real. However I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t a fair overlap of membership in places like Ayrshire for example.

    In reference to your other post, I must say I only ever remember “tigger” rather than “nigger” from that rhyme in Scotland in the early 1970′s.

    More interestingly, I remember once reading that “Eeny, meeny, Miny, Moe” are the numbers 1,2,3,4 in some proto-celtic language that has been passed down as folklore. Ring a bell, anyone ?

  146. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) ! 1 May, 2014 – 3:23 pm
    “I’d advise investing in a second-hand copy of Noel Annan’s “Our Age”.”

    I guess by the stupidity of your claim you were betting on me not reading your comment. Unfortunately I did. Sorry, my mistake.

    The most informative page I could quickly find about this obscure book was a NYBooks review which listed these people as subjects of the book: F.R. Leavis, Isaiah Berlin, John Osborne, Edward Heath, Evelyn Waugh, Kenneth Tynan, Rab Butler, Enoch Powell, Cyril Connolly, and Margaret Thatcher.

    To claim these people prove a left wing British establishment causing the decline of empire is idiotic. Almost as pathetic as Craig mentioning the Cambridge spies and Tony Benn.

    You pompous establishment twits want to claim everything for the establishment.

  147. Clark

    Sorry I do not know how to respond to your comment. I do not see how motivations are relevant and I think all involved understand what we mean by left wing in the context of this argument.

  148. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    1 May, 2014 - 8:23 pm

    Phil

    “Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) ! 1 May, 2014 – 3:23 pm
    “I’d advise investing in a second-hand copy of Noel Annan’s “Our Age”.”

    I guess by the stupidity of your claim you were betting on me not reading your comment. Unfortunately I did. Sorry, my mistake.

    The most informative page I could quickly find about this obscure book was a NYBooks review which listed these people as subjects of the book: F.R. Leavis, Isaiah Berlin, John Osborne, Edward Heath, Evelyn Waugh, Kenneth Tynan, Rab Butler, Enoch Powell, Cyril Connolly, and Margaret Thatcher.”
    ______________________

    Calm down, dear. Your post demonstrates the pitfalls of relying on reviews of books rather than reading said books (especially if – as I suspect – you could not read the whole review because it is behind a paywall).

    If you ever do read it, you find it mentions many more people – in many more fields- than the small dozen you mention.

    Allow me to quote just a little from the inside cover:

    “Our Age tells the story of the intellectuals formed by Cambridge, Oxford and the London School of Economics between 1920 and 1949, the people who in turn shaped the literature, science and politics of their age – and to some extent ours…..
    ..Our Age examines examines the movements that influenced this generation – pacifism, collectivism and modernism…..And he shows why, in the age of appeasement and Munich, some became Marxists, and a handful of them Soviet spies, while others became Roman Catholics”

    So I think my recommendation can stand.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    No need to apologise, Phil, but do control yourself better and above all, stop posting uninformed piss.

  149. Craig, such class distinctions are irrelevant. The rich and poor vote for UKIP equally. The thinking arm of the affluent ignorant of the previous colonial era are the ‘Orientalists’. They study every minute detail of Islam without coming into Islam.

    Their most ouitspoken oppenents are Political Islam in its deobandi form, total rejection of the English per se in perpetuity. Thes are the ones now fully engaged with destroying Syria and getting into top gear in the UK economy. Fighting for Islam by deception, breaking the rules of Islam in order to gain political power for Islam.

    Craig, it’s a good idea to listen to what people say about themselves. But in the case of the oppressed underdogs of Indian colonial rule, we find that they are actually steeped in the dreams of Empire and the ways of colonial deception.

    The only enemies the Muslims have is from their own ranks from the hands of the selfish ambition of a few, who use the trump card slogan of being oppressed when they are ruthlessly pursuing, now , same as before, their own narrow selfish political minarets of personal prestige.

    The scholars of India have never lifted a finger to reach out in humility to their enemies in the way of the prophet,peace be upon him, but always engaged in a political tareeq/path, which dreams of the restoration of Moghul empire and racial domination.

    So Craig is correct in my opinion in folowing his hunch that not the whole blame for the problem of colonialism or neo-colonialism lies on the shoulders of the Western non-Muslim side. Allahu Akbar, it is an English political blog that preserves the freedom of speech, which is the prerogative of Islam.

    Islam exists in the remnants of the body of English culture that studied the good book , the sister to the Qur’an, the Bible, more than in the body of Asian culture that ignored the teachings of the Qur’an.

    I deeply resent Asians coming here and introducing corruption in business, in the electoral system and in the mosque, by raking up hatred against the English, when they were equally responsible for the catastrophe of colonialism themselves by not tackling the invaders in a proper way.

    You only have to look at Syria to see how Muslims try to shift the blame onto the West for their own crimes. if the Muslims got their act together and adopted the teachings of the Qur’an, the West would be history, as ancient Rome is now.

    And inshallah that process has been started by the responsible scholars who urge the Muslims to follow the Qur’an and leave politics to the self-important self-seeking self-appointed murderers of the innocent in false jihad, to perpetuate the power of the enemies of Islam by wrecking the Muslim world, for their own pride.

  150. Spam Bodhisattvas!

  151. Ba'al Zevul (Lion-Hearted Defender of Stuff)

    2 May, 2014 - 9:49 am

    I think we’ve been visited by some Royal Arch Spambots…

    Never seen so many fake URL’s together on one blog.

    Obviously someone’s cage was successfully rattled.

    [craigmurray.org.uk - There are currently 666 items in the Spam folder.]

  152. Paul Kleber Monod’s 2013 book The Occult in the Age of Enlightenment (Yale UP) is worth a look at as he considers how some of those individuals at the forefront of the scientific revolution were also interested in the occult, from Paracelsus and John Dee to Boyle and Newton, and at how such pioneers and their successors found themselves having to keep their occult interests into the private parts of their lives (*), perhaps because gnostic and neo platonic ideas were (and are) not as openly accepted in Western Christianity as in Islam and Judaism and this was more so after the French Revolution. He places freemasonry in this private context, as a social organisation in private for those interested in the occult, and very often some of those masons are also scientists.

    Freemasonry was not simply a manifestation of the rational scientific age, which was beginning to replace religion – it was inherently interested in the occult. The occult being that which is not known, and perhaps that which can not be known, or which can not be known with the senses.

    Of course freemasons would also appear to have got involved in much that was neither neo platonic nor scientific, but that need not concern this post.

    (* or perhaps such interests are simply better kept private)

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