Tories Support Pre-Emptive Nuclear War 328

On Radio 4 this morning Defence Secretary Michael Fallon argued not just for Trident missiles, but for first use of nuclear weapons and “pre-emptive nuclear war”. There was no misunderstanding or circumstance – he was queried very specifically on the exact point. Not only do the Tories support having weapons of mass destruction, they support using them when none have been used against us.

The whole discussion is of course a fantasy as there is no danger whatsoever of a major attack on the UK by any foreign power. Russia has no plans to attack the UK, has never had any plans to attack the UK, and anyway has an economy the size of the Spanish economy. Mind you, the Tories have also been fantasising about war with Spain recently…

There is no sensible justification for Trident. What North Korea shows is that nuclear weapons are no deterrent against other countries developing them. Only a lunatic would actually use them – Kim Jong Un, Michael Fallon, Theresa May – and you can’t deter a lunatic. And Michael Fallon’s suggestion this morning that nuclear weapons in some way deter terrorists is risible.

But just as the media are very wrong to spend the last 24 hours telling us that Jeremy Corbyn is mad because he won’t commit to destroying mankind, it would be equally wrong of me to argue that every single person who supports Trident is a blazing fascist. There are decent people who support Trident. But they would not support the Fallon/May doctrine of “pre-emptive nuclear war” and first use of nuclear weapons.

I would like to believe that the Fallon/May enthusiasm for first use and pushing that red button, along with hard Brexit and anti-immigration rhetoric, would convince some moderate Tories and ex-Labour voters that they are being hustled very quickly down a path it is wrong to go down. But I fear the media water chute has caught them up and realisation may not set in on time.

During the referendum campaign there was a suggestion from the SNP that after Independence we might give WENI (Wales England Northern Ireland) seven years grace to prepare before removing its missiles from the Clyde. I am totally opposed to this. I rather support the Ukrainian solution, whereby an international team is brought in immediately to verify the decommissioning of any nuclear weapons on Scottish territory or in Scottish waters.

If you cut the missiles in two along the middle, they might make good children’s slides.

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328 thoughts on “Tories Support Pre-Emptive Nuclear War

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  • Sharp Ears

    Trump ramps it up. Trust he is not intending to push any buttons just yet. Has he had the White House bunker gilded and customized?

    ‘In an unusual move, the entire US Senate is being called to the White House for a briefing on North Korea.

    Washington has become increasingly concerned at North Korean missile and nuclear tests and threats to its neighbours and the US.

    The briefing, involving 100 senators as well as Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Defence Secretary James Mattis, is being held on Wednesday.

    China, North Korea’s main ally, has called for restraint from all sides.

    China’s call came in a phone conversation between President Xi Jinping and President Donald Trump on Sunday. ‘

    The dove of peace has taken cover.

    Mr Xi urged all parties to “maintain restraint and avoid actions that would increase tensions”, according to the Chinese foreign ministry.

  • Seydlitz

    Macron is their to represent the interests of the owning class,they will not allow any one to usurp his position by fair means or foul he will win the final ballot.

  • Alcyone

    ***Craig, Macron and Goldman Sachs Support the Islamisation of Europe***

    “Sadly every non-racist finds themselves obliged to hope that Macron wins.”

    One can only ‘hope’ that people will begin to think for themselves. Start with the meaning of the word ‘Islam”:

    From Arabic ‘islām ‘submission’, from ‘aslama ‘submit (to God)’.

    State secret: You didn’t have to have attended Oxford to know this. But you don’t really care do you? So submit to Craig’s red-herrings about pre-emptive nuclear war. But when you’ve come back from your wild-goose-chase that he sent you on, please get serious.

    • fwl

      Not an unusual concept in religion. It is the same in the Book of Job. Ego is a false king.

  • Seydlitz

    Reguarding Britains so called independent deterant,American help was to design the submarines,the rockets are on lease,the maintenance is carried out at James river,Aldermarston is run by American contractors.
    So I am pretty sure they would have some means of destroying any unaurtherised launch if Britain tried to go it alone.


  • Alcyone

    Let’s go further. You don’t need to be a lexicographer to know that Islam is not a race. At any rate it’s not AT ALL about being anti-immigration. It’s very very simple: not wanting or supporting the *Islamisation* of Europe. Full stop.

    Start with this primer of example sentences for the word Islamisation in the Oxford Dictionary:

    “Example sentences
    ‘Ongoing Islamisation has dramatically reduced opposition to Islamic values and norms.’
    ‘Their ideology was Islamization and Muslim communalism respectively.’
    ‘The Islamisation of politics gives clerics a freehand to rule, with little regard for individual freedoms.’
    ‘Bhatty underlines the need for studying the ways in which the process of Islamisation has affected caste-like divisions among Muslims.’
    ‘The new demographic presence of Islam within the Western world is indicative that Islamisation is now a major globalising force.’ ”

    Globalising force? Are the US Deep State, Goldman Sachs, Saudi Arabia in bed together?

    Ask yourself, how many refugees did Saudi Arabia take? What are immigrants’ rights in Saudi Arabia? How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia?

      • Bayard

        All that proves is that you are right about the definition of the word “islamization”. It does not prove that the concept of the islamisation of Europe is not a myth, only that some people are on record as using the word and/or believing in the concept. You will also find an entry for the word “unicorn” in the OED.
        How much first hand, personal evidence do you have for the islamisation of Europe and how much have you simply taken from that motherlode of misinformation, the internet?

          • Iain Stewart

            And what about François I of FRANCE besieging Nice in 1543 with the help of his ally Suliman the Magnificent while you’re wittering away, Michael?

  • Alcyone

    Consider another couple of little (undisputed) facts:

    ” Churches[edit]
    Currently there are no official churches in Saudi Arabia of any Christian denomination.[7] The small number of Saudi Arabian Christians meets in internet chat rooms and private meetings.[7] However, there are cases in which a Muslim will adopt the Christian faith, secretly declaring his/her faith. In effect, they are practising Christians, but legally Muslims.

    According to the Society of Architectural Heritage Protection Jeddah and the Municipality of Jeddah, a long abandoned house in Al-Baghdadiyya district has never been an Anglican church, contrary to the ““myth” that had spread on the Internet”. There was however still in 1930 a non-Muslim cemetery in Jeddah.[11]

    The percentage of Saudi Arabian citizens who are Christians is officially zero,[12] as Saudi Arabia forbids religious conversion from Islam (Apostasy) and punishes it by death (Capital punishment in Saudi Arabia).[7][13] A 2015 study estimates 60,000 Muslims converted to Christianity in Saudi Arabia.[14]”

    Forget about the BBC, The Guardian, Murdoch, et al. Does Craig Murray tell you these things? He was in the Arabian Peninsula recently. (‘So what did you see my blue-eyed son?’)
    What did you see my darling young one?
    I saw ten thousand churches with nobody in them

  • fwl

    Alcyone, there is a misuse of all religions as flags. They are not flags but become so because of the weakness and laziness of people like us. Whoever seeks God through another than himself will never attain God. That is an Islamic aphorism. Of course we easily mistake what some call a secret fold of the ego for the Self. It is not Islam which is the trouble. It is people. People who secretly encourage Saudi backed fundamental atrocities. People who turn a blind eye. People who do not connect with others.

  • Sharp Ears

    It’s not just Trump’s US. Anti-Muslim hate threatens Europe too
    The Islamophobic ideologues at the heart of the new US administration have allies on this side of the Atlantic. We must all fight the spread of their divisive lies

    ‘Meanwhile in western and central Europe there has been a rise in the number and size of explicitly anti-Muslim parties, as populist radical-right parties such as the Alternative für Deutschland, Geert Wilders’ Freedom party and Marine Le Pen’s Front National have brought anti-Muslim prejudice to the forefront of their political agendas in Germany, the Netherlands and France. Elections in these countries later this year will be an important yardstick for measuring how far into the mainstream these policies have moved.

    While we have seen the collapse of street movements such as the EDL in the UK, this has by no means heralded the end of anti-Muslim prejudice. Quite the contrary. Instead we have seen a normalisation of anti-Muslim prejudice in the UK and a rise in anti-Muslim hate crime. A recent report by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) criticised rising “racist violence and hate speech” by both the press and politicians in the wake of the Brexit vote.’

  • reel guid

    Jeremy Corbyn tells the STUC that the Tories are vicious. Indeed they are Jeremy.

    So why did you urge people in Scotland to vote No in 2014 and have vicious Tory government?

  • Aubrey

    Are they pushing out the limits? we know the provocative propaganda of Korea and others, but what is wrong with UK propaganda to jump like this?

  • michael norton

    So I am questioning, did Trump Tomahawk Syria because of chemical weapons?

    I think that may be his given reason, but more like
    The Syrians /The Russians /The Iranians were making great progress in re-joining the disparate parts of Syria, back under government control, most people in Syria actually live in the areas controlled by the Syrian Government, however the majority of Syrian land is in the control of the Islamists – moderate or otherwise.
    Trump most likely Tomahawked Syria because the Americans are losing influence in the Middle East and |Russia is gaining influence in the Middle East but the catalyst will have come because of Israel aggression towards Syria and the Syrian retaliation.

  • Muscleguy

    “If you cut the missiles in two along the middle, they might make good children’s slides.”

    😉 nice image but of course the missiles belong to the US and Donald might be a mite incendiary if we destroy any of them instead of sending them homeward tae think again.

    You and I both know repurposing the warheads, the bit the UK owns, for children’s play equipment would not be sensible.

    I’m with you on the 7 years being too long. How long does it take to build a few more concrete bunkers at Aldermaston? or wherever they decide to store the warheads. Scotland is under no obligation to ensure rUK can not only continue nuclear weapon patrols from Scotland during that time but continue seamlessly when they finally leave. Let it all be gone and EWNI can do what the Americans did at Holy Loch and run the subs from support ships in harbour, or bunk up with the French in Le Havre.

    So they have options and Scotland does not need to feather bed them, just ensure that the warheads will not be dumped in a field somewhere, but stored safely and appropriately. They can use national emergency planning law getouts. I would give them 18months tops, from a Yes vote.

  • Dave

    I know the US is a mega arms supplier and illegally donates/sells to nuclear armed Israel, but I suspect even US wouldn’t be MAD enough to sell nuclear bombs to another country unless they can control their use, because of course the weapons could potentially be used on them. Hence if UK nuclear bombs are US supplied and maintained, then they will be US controlled too.

  • Sharp Ears

    Ivanka’s in Berlin with Lagarde and Merkel ’empowering women’. Ivanka should start with sorting out her father’s sexism.

    ‘Following an overnight transatlantic flight, Trump kicks off a whirlwind day at the US Embassy in Berlin, where she will meet with embassy staff and their families.

    She then participates in a panel discussion on women’s empowerment and entrepreneurship at the W-20, a summit of G-20 countries aimed at promoting women’s workforce participation and equality. She will be one of eight participants, including Merkel, Queen Màxima of the Netherlands, and International Monetary Fund director Christine Lagarde.

    Following the panel, Trump will tour Siemens Technik Akademie, where she will speak with program apprentices.

    She will also pay her respects at the Memorial to the Murdered J..s of Europe, a large series of concrete rectangular slabs of various heights. Her husband, Jared Kushner, is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. Trump converted to Judaism herself in 2009.

    In the evening, Trump will join Merkel at a W-20 gala dinner.’

    • Sharp Ears

      Ivanka Trump forced to defend father at G20 women’s summit
      1 hr ago

      Donald Trump’s daughter Ivanka was met with groans as she defended her father’s attitude towards women at the G20 women’s summit in Berlin.

      The First Daughter was taking part in a panel discussion about female entrepreneurs alongside German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and IMF chief Christine Lagarde.

      But the audience bristled at her praise for the US president. The event is part of the G20 women’s summit.

      An audible groan went up as she told the room her father was a “tremendous champion of supporting families and enabling them to thrive”.
      Mr Trump has been criticised over his attitude to women, especially after a tape of him making obscene remarks was released during the presidential campaign.


  • reel guid

    The fieldwork for this TNS poll was carried out before the Panelbase and Survation online polls which both showed Yes and No around the same. A recent BMG poll them just about level and a recent Ipsos-Mori had Yes marginally ahead.

    So perhaps your TNS poll is fairly accurate Michael, but until we see it corroborated by other polls it would have to be strongly suspected to be an outlier.

  • Sharp Ears

    There is no programme like this on the British media.

    ‘On this episode of America’s Lawyer, Mike Papantonio discusses the decades long attacks on trial lawyers by insurance companies and organizations like the Chamber of Commerce and speaks with Mikal Watts, an attorney who successfully defended himself against federal prosecutors in a landmark fraud case involving BP and the Deep Water Horizon oil spill.

    Mike then talks to attorney and Board President of the Waterkeeper Alliance, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., about the decision to shut down the troubled Indian Point nuclear power plant by 2021.

    Mike is then joined by Farron Cousins, Executive Editor of The Trial Lawyer Magazine, to discuss the complaints of multiple veterans who claim they were duped by the Saudi Arabian government to lobby for an amendment to the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act.

    America’s Lawyer wraps up the show by highlighting a class-action settlement with the city of Alexander in Alabama for jailing poor people unable to pay small fines. ‘
    30 mins

  • Shakesvshav

    We seem to be trying to get our way by frightening other nations with the thought that we have madmen in charge.

  • Sharp Ears


    You deleted a comma.

    President, Macron and Le Pen to attend memorial for slain Champs-Elysées policeman

    That’s all three – Hollande, Macron and Le Pen.

  • reel guid

    The probable defeat of Le Pen in the second round in France and the recent halting in it’s tracks of Geert Wilders’ party in the Netherlands leaves the England and Wales brexit decision looking untypical. Other Europeans countries might be unhappy about aspects of the EU but they are not EU haters as so many in dear old England are.

    Macron is in no mood to make concessions to May. He has said that there will be no access to the EU single market unless the UK continues to make appropriate budget payments.

    • Ba'al Zevul

      The show ain’t over until the steatopygically unchallenged lady sings (the Marseillaise).
      The untypical UK? Fine. That’s why I voted Leave. And I’m sure M. Blairesque -ou Macron) and May will see absolutely eye to eye on global markets. In private, of course.

      If Macron wins, however, a substantial chunk of Northern France, excluded from the benefits of non-jobs in capital management and consultancy, unwilling hosts to large numbers of foreigners will continue to feel an ever-increasing disconnect with its political system. Such disconnects get a bit more violent in France than they do here, and the next revisitation of our ‘learning nothing from history’ seminar might concern the panic that spread throughout Europe when it began to look as if the French were about to have a revolution….let alone when it materialised.

      I’m unsurprised that reel guid feels that Macron would be the better choice. Before Christmas you may meet turkeys with a similar mindset. Before.

      • reel guid

        I don’t think Macron is a great choice. He’s just the lesser of two Zevuls.

        • Ba'al Zevul

          Rather good, that. L not quite OL.
          More seriously, I have reasons for believing otherwise. Under Macron, the inflammation will suppurate and ultimately ulcerate. I am pretty sure globalisation is immune to antibiotics. Under Le Pen it will be either dissipate or turn into an easily-burst boil. The more something is suppressed, the more it flourishes out of sight. See early Christianity for an example.

          The unprivileged across the West will certainly react as it becomes apparent that they have no say in their destinies and that they are simply commodities, like pork bellies and rolled steel plate, to be traded on the market for the benefit of people with whom they have no other ties or connections. That reaction can be managed, or not. It will not be manageable by an ex-banker with no prior experience of government and with Blairite policies. It might be manageable by Trump, whose voter base was the unprivileged (their error), but not Macron. At worst, Le Pen will dissipate some of the energy building behind the antiglobalist patriots of France. Yes, they are patriots. No globalist can claim to be anything of the sort, if you think about it.

          Like to read that last sentence again, in the context of Scottish nationalism?

          • Ba'al Zevul

            …and at best Le Pen would facilitate a fairer economy within secure borders, for the benefit of full French citizens. You never know.

          • reel guid

            The global neoliberal hegemony is being seriously challenged now in a number of countries by properly democratic movements. Ultra rightists like Le Pen just use the unpopularity of globalisation for their own unsavoury agendas.

            And we know what the FNs idea of a full French citizen would be if they were handed the Presidency of France.

    • J

      “Other Europeans countries might be unhappy about aspects of the EU but they are not EU haters as so many in dear old England are.”

      My observation, for what it’s worth?

      That you’re repeating media memes and talking points with regard to your ability to accurately characterise Brexiters as a whole. Apart from the arrogance of claiming to know the mind of so many diverse people, I just don’t think it’s possible to generalise. Look at your own ambivalence to many things, all the complex experience and understanding which makes you who you are. You’re denying the possibility of all of that in millions of others because the media explanation is satisfying to you. An odd contradiction.

      And as you’ll probably agree, one of the few things they definitely have in common is the mass media disinformation which they either regard or disregard. As in the referendum campaign, repeating these memes and talking points does not lead to understanding, divides us further and ultimately removes any possibility of a grown up debate about the very real failings of the EU from the table, for good.

      A point worth re-iterating is that in England I frequently heard the same logic used against the Scots during your referendum, that you were all petty and narrow minded nationalists narrowly saved by more reasonable majority. These arguments were being propagated from the same mass media, Guardian to the Times, who label all Brexiters as racists. I argued against them at that time, as I’m arguing against you.

      I doubt very much that race was an issue for those who masterminded Brexit, for them, race was probably just a useful vehicle they were only too happy to drive since it suited their purpose. Calling them racist is a way of avoiding what’s really happening and it’s probably even quite useful to them, since it obscures what they’re really doing.

      • reel guid

        I never called anyone racist. I said lots of people in England are EU haters, which surely is difficult to refute.

          • reel guid

            In the absence in the Scottish political scene of a party predicated on English hating you are struggling to substantiate your claim. Although any English haters there are in Scotland are despicable people.

          • fred

            There isn’t exactly a Europe Hater’s party in England either. They tend to use pseudonyms like “Independence” and “National”.

          • Node

            Like lots of people in Scotland are England haters you mean?

            If this blog is any guide, there are more English Scottish haters than Scottish English haters.

    • Chris Rogers

      real guid,

      So essentially, you are celebrating the fact that electorates in Holland and France are allegedly endorsing Pro-EU, Pro-Neoliberal economic prescriptions, when the actual voting patterns suggest the reverse, namely, a large swathe of voters are fucked off with neoliberalism and the banging of war drums and these voters are cleaving to the Left or Right, thus allowing the so called ‘Moderates’ (Neoliberals) to charge through the middle ground.

      I take it, if you are in Scotland that you are opposed to PFI, a system invented by the Tories and put on steroids by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, part of Brown’s reasoning for this was to keep within the Treaty framework of the Growth & Stability Pact, of which the UK is a member, the G&SP curtailing a nations ability to spend as it sees fit, namely, its an abuse of fiscal policy, which is why many EU nations are economically fucked, a matter made worse by the Euro – U Stots EU supporters will have a lot to learn of how draconian EU fiscal constraints are, never mind the horrors of the Euro, which benefits several EU nations only at the expense of a majority of members.

      • reel guid

        A verbose lot these EU haters.

        Brexit is still a very bad idea – both economically and politically – even if the EU has faults aplenty

  • nevermind

    Many here were fretting about a possible succession of Turkey into the EU, indeed our foreign minister Boris Can’tdonogood was fully in support of expanding the EU to include Turkey. Probably his ancestral genetic pangs. Now here is the first chance for a meeting of dictatorship after Brexit, mind without the access to the single market, our arms for pistachio’s, what a great opportunity for the UK.

    ‘The Turks have voted for autocracy, for the repression of political opponents and likely also for the introduction of the death penalty. None of these can be reconciled with membership in the EU. For Brussels now, at the very latest, the time has come to call the accession process what it is: dead.

  • Habbabkuk

    There are really quite a few similarities between Messrs Macron and Tony Blair, aren’t there. Both are young, both are ambitious, both are sort of third way-ish and short on specifics at the beginning, both have emerged rapidly from relative obscurity and both have reached the top inter alia through betrayal (Macron of Hollande, Blair of Brown).

    I wonder if those on here who appear to admire M. Macron today also admired Mr Blair back in 1997?

    • Alcyone

      Very good points Habby. Both also approve of deaths that are ‘quick and painless’–similar words used by Macron today at the ceremony for the dead, murdered policeman in Paris. Very comforthing (freudian slip) words am sure for the police and friends and family. What’s the problem?

    • Sharp Ears

      BLiar ‘young’? What are you on about? FYI he’s 63, a year younger than Macron’s wife. Macron is 39.

      BLiar was 44 when he was elected. ‘Things can only get better’. NOT.

    • Itsy

      Both are young??

      Macron is 39, Blair is 63. I wouldn’t put them in the same box at all.

      • Itsy

        Makes me wonder what age Habbabkuk is, if he calls Blair young! Must be in his eighties.

        • fwl

          I think your probably right, but is it not good to be in your 80s or 90s and be thinking and interested in things.

  • michael norton

    Rather surprized by this, I thought they were all for a non-nuclear future?

    General Election 2017: Lib Dems to keep ‘nuclear deterrent’

    he Liberal Democrats would “maintain a credible nuclear deterrent” if they won power, leader Tim Farron says.

    “Our nuclear deterrent keeps us at the top table in this post-Brexit world,” he said.

    Could anybody let me know what is the purpose of the Liberal Democrats
    other than to be pointless?

    • D_Majestic

      Maybe shaping up for another coalition with the Tories, Michael. If the May annunciation does not quite go to plan.

  • pete

    I would like to suggest the first nuclear missile is detonated in the heart of May’s government. Purely to test her mettle. Stupid arrogant ghastly woman who for whatever reason assumes she will number amongst the survivors. Oh forgot! she will no doubt be engaged elsewhere – by sheer coincidence.

  • michael norton

    “AGGRESSIVE NATIONALISM” Theresa May is following a similar agenda to Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, says Tim Farron

    Lib Dem leader will accuse the Prime minister of The United Kingdom of being part of a “new world order” that links U.S.A. and Russian presidents with Marine Le Pen

    She has been damned “out of the mouths of babes”.

  • michael norton

    The scientists say the issue of “pollution” also now needs to be considered alongside ( what has happened sine The Second World War)
    the oft-discussed concern over the sustainable use of groundwater.
    The second radioisotope to be checked was tritium, a heavy form of hydrogen which, in contrast, decays very rapidly. It was put in the atmosphere by A-bomb tests in the 1950s/1960s, so its presence is a sign of water’s youth.


    So Air-burst Nuclear explosions, the dumping of Nuclear materials into the ground water, such as at Windscale, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima and all the monstrous amounts of stored spent Nuclear Fuel in the World,
    yet more Nuclear disaster await the World.

  • giyane

    What is ” stable ” government?

    Thatcher de-regulation recently caused ” mother of all f…ing bombs ” global recession in which the whole of global banking had to be re-capitalised with real money from oil-sheikhdoms and trillions of global QE.

    The red/blue coloured Tory ne-cons have caused 30 years of continual/ous war against Muslim countries who have done nothing wrong except practise a better faith than our own Queenies. The only reason for doing this was the racism of the IS bit of USUKIS and the criminal colonialism of the casino USUK.

    Joining up the dots stable government is code for ,,,,stable …. stables …. GGs … GCHQ and Gambling.
    The Trinity-believing vicar’s daughter turns out to be a Fokker triplane.

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