Imagine my hilarity when the front page headline new “Iranian plot”, trailed by MI5 as involving weapons stores, attacks on the Israeli Embassy and on Whitehall, turned out to be yet another faked “surveillance operation” against Iran International, the “media company” that is dodgier than Al Capone’s accountant.
The BBC still made it the second item on Saturday’s main news, as “Iranian Terror Plot discovered”. Three men have been charged and remanded on bail before a hearing at the Old Bailey on 6 June.
This is another exercise of the UK’s draconian new legislation, the openly fascist National Security Act 2023, where it is an offence to gather information, whether classified or not, as “Engaging in conduct likely to assist a foreign intelligence service”.
This is an incredibly low bar – prosecutors don’t have to prove there is any actual contact with a hostile power. So if you take a photo of Downing Street, as many tourists do, that can be an offence as it could be “useful” to non-existent “Iranian terrorists” or others. We already have one person in jail for taking photos of Iran International despite absolutely zero evidence that he had ever had any kind of contact with Iran.
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Bang on CM
False flags in the U.K. go back a long way as Annie Machon MI5 whistleblower long ago revealed the fake car bomb outside the embassy which was clearly identified by MI5 as a Mossad job- to get the British Police to round up pro Palestinian supporters and illegally jail them! And get more political cover.
Terrorism by state is not new here – just the rubber stamp gestapo Nazi laws to protect the ZioFascist imperialist expansion.
On which note I notice the gatekeepers and sheepdogs are out in the ‘media’ with crocodile tears about the illegal apartheid entity – as it moves inevitably towards its decolonisation – not even a centenary to celebrate its mass extermination of natives.
I suppose it’s because people still believe in the progress of civilisation that they are aggrieved when the process of creating and expanding a European colony proceeds in the way that it has nearly always done for hundreds of years.
@Bayard – I usually hit a wall when I urge people to compare Israel with French Algeria, but then sometimes a light comes on when I
• observe that Zionism was an Ashkenazi movement, with no base among Arab Jews whatsoever
• ask them to imagine what Algeria would be like if the French had stayed
• refer to all Israeli Jews as “pieds noirs” and as “settlers”, totally regardless of what part of Palestine they live in, or when they arrived
• mention that a large proportion of Israeli Jews hold citizenship or the right to citizenship in other countries
• mention that French settlers in Algeria had French citizenship but this was denied to Berbers and Muslim Arabs (although it was granted to Jewish Arabs)
But then they are embarrassed for not realising these things at the start…
Interestingly, the British ruling gang has quite a history of taking over countries and then handing them to third countries:
Singapore – largely Malay, given to Chinese
Palestine – mostly Arab, given to Jews
Chagos Islands – Chagossian, given (more or less) to the USA and soon (de jure) to Mauritius
Just in the last few days Thomas Roper who runs the ‘Anti-Spiegel’ blog has been sanctioned by the EU, and prohibited from entering the EU along with other measures. All this despite not having broken any EU or German law. This sort of vicious censorship seems now to be EU policy. How long before the UK joins in? There is already, as Craig observes, de facto censorship against pro-Palestine comment or protest.
As I still have the impression that THE GUARDIAN on things about Gaza is lightyears ahead of German media, have they and others changed their reporting in light of censorship threats?
p.s. I believe to this day the 500k protesters in London were not worth mentioning in Germany.
“the impression that THE GUARDIAN on things about Gaza is lightyears ahead of German media” may be true, I don’t know, but this is not saying very much at all. The Guardian is a fully enlisted creature of the establishment and only operates within the generally accepted parameters, whatever they happen to be at any particular time. Of course there is the odd article by supposed ‘radicals’ such as George Monbiot and the token leftist (I forget his name) but they are there only for show. The bulk of the content is Neo-Liberal and anti-Russian, generally apologist re Israel, etc. If it was a truly radical paper they would have been calling for sanctions on Israel and a ban on weapons supplies. Look at any article on Russia and substitute the word Israel to see what I mean
This is on British Intelligence in general but feels to fit here:
Tom Griffin´s Substack is usually noteworthy but his goodies vs. the baddies are well put into their places.
Still a million times a more sincere and reflective Substack than the too often insane CIA-mouthpiece “Spytalk”.
Griffin glances at the subject of foreign influence from the POV of domestic British intel services:
“Directives from the Centre – A new take on an old genre”
https://intelligencehistory.substack.com/p/directives-from-the-centre-a-new-3b9
The beginning is a bit naive. At least I would immediately think that comments by MI-6 made as quoted below are very inentionally directed at the public and especially at the media as intermediary for MI-6 PR purposes sowing doubt and distrust at home towards other nations. So as to make people think this is FSB while in fact it is not.
“(…)
Britain’s independent reviewer of terrorism legislation had some striking advice for foreign agents last week:
`If I was a foreign intelligence officer of course I would meddle in separatism, whether Scottish independence or independence of overseas territories or Brexit. I would encourage extreme forms of environmentalism, hoping that policies generated would damage my adversaries’ economy or at least sow discord or hopelessness.
I would sponsor Islamism and Islamist MPs and contentious foreign policy issues such as Gaza within politics. Social media would be a delightful playground for wedge issues. I would certainly amplify the lie that the Southport killer was a Muslim who arrived on a small boat, and relish where an attacker had previously claimed asylum.
I would ensure that the UK hated itself and its history. That the very definition of woman should be put into question, and that masculinity would be presented as toxic. That White people should be ashamed and non-White people aggrieved. I would promote anti-Semitism.´
Jonathan Hall KC is also the the reviewer for legislation against state threats, so it might seem odd that his speech to the Policy Exchange think-tank was so keen to tell those state threats how to go about their business.
(…)”
p.s. on a related note maybe, LRB with a podcast with Sheila Fitzpatrick who is more sincere and knowing than a CIA will most likely ever be.
“In the Soviet Archives”
Sheila Fitzpatrick and Daniel Soar
14 May 2025
68 min.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/podcasts-and-videos/podcasts/the-lrb-podcast/in-the-soviet-archives
MI5 is a corrupt organisation that acts to remove British citizens’ civil liberties and human rights in the name of security. Unfortunately power and secrecy is not a good mix and there is inadequate oversight. Turbocharged abuse of those wanting to serve their country and reckless risk taking comes as standard now. 1984 was not supposed to be a blueprint for modern Britain.
Perhaps the protests have affected a real change in government attitudes? Or perhaps the threat of false flag attacks is the new factor but this is from the National, on the 20th May
‘The UK has announced sanctions against prominent West Bank settlers after Foreign Secretary David Lammy set out a “response in detail” to the “intolerable and unacceptable situation” in Gaza under a renewed military offensive.
Among those facing sanctions are three people and four organisations, including activist Daniella Weiss.
Mr Lammy said the measures follow a dramatic surge in settler violence in the West Bank, with the UN recording more than 1,800 attacks against Palestinian communities since January 1, 2024.
Mr Lammy said Israel’s renewed offensive in Gaza and threats to relocate the population was “repellent”.
“We are now entering a dark new phase in this conflict, [the] Netanyahu government is planning to drive Gazans from their homes into a corner of the strip to the south and permit a fraction of the aid that they need,” he said.
In a statement to Parliament, he also set to announce the formal pause of Free Trade Agreement negotiations with Israel. “While the UK government remains committed to the existing trade agreement in force, it is not possible to advance discussions on a new, upgraded FTA with a Netanyahu government that is pursuing egregious policies in the West Bank and Gaza,” he said.
Israeli ambassador to the UK Tzipi Hotovely has also been summoned to the UK Foreign Office.’
All theatrics to fool the public. The UK has done absolutely nothing to stop the genocide or curb it’s very active participation in it. The spy flights and supply flights out of Cyprus continue even while the charade in Westminster plays out. Special forces on the ground and multiple contracts for the murderous technologies the IDF use continues. Blair helped murder millions, Starmer intends to out do that. Save us from these murderous pretend socialists.
Let’s not forget the case of Roman Abramovich, the mafia boss from Russia.
Britain chose not to renew his visa when he applied on a Russian passport.
Guess what he did then. He applied on an Israeli passport instead. And the British government responded by saying you jolly good fellow, come right on in, you are very welcome, Sir. As if he had been a dangerous criminal when carrying one passport but had turned into a valued upstanding visitor as soon as he brandished a passport issued by a notorious gang of land thieves and killers.
Just imagine being in such a publicly known bumsniffer position as the one that British ministers and officials were in. Would the regime in even a tinpot country accept that kind of humiliation? (And how do you keep a straight back and a stiff upper lip when you’re on your knees, you’re carrying an envelope containing a big bribe, and your tongue’s hanging out at the thought of your promised holiday in Tel Aviv?)
I am not sure what his current status is. It’s possible the British gang’s position changed again and he was told he was unwelcome. Anyway later he got Portuguese and therefore EU citizenship. But there has been an issue in Portugal about the genuineness or otherwise of his Sephardic ancestry, which may well have been completely made up before a rabbi “verified” it – a rabbi who himself is now under criminal investigation.
Issues of sanctions against individuals run up against this kind of thing, because mostly they are about money – and large amounts of it.
What I would like to see is a freeze on the Israeli state’s assets held in London and elsewhere.
Just a heads up but I see wing’s pet hasbara troll is now calling CM a “ham as supporter” BTL in his latest piece.
Interestingly there does not seem to be any problem from SC with ‘wanking on about Palestine’ or banning them for ‘filter evasion’ in this instance (the comment has been up for days and the same tosser is still posting his smears) or indeed any instance when it comes to silencing comment on the glaring and disgusting genocide in Palestine.
It is also interesting to note the the person most delighted with the banning of discussion of the genocide BTL is the same hasbara wank.
Gosh it is almost like a pattern is emerging there…
I watch most of his interviews but Professor John Mearsheimer on Judge Nap the other day was outstanding in his analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoOd7RkgIzE&ab_channel=JudgeNapolitano-JudgingFreedom
It is something of a relief for me to hear this great man express his profound shock at seeing the genocide unfold but also at the total silence (until very recently) from the ‘leaders’ of the West.
I am sure many of us feel exactly the same… surrounded by silence… while a monster murders hundreds of thousands of mostly women and children in front of our eyes.
I think it is the silence that disgusts me the most. All the dogs who never barked…
I certainly find two tiers recent criticism 100% insincere. The UK like the US is an active participant in it. The key role of the British spy planes flying out of Cyprus (flying more missions than the Israelis themselves) is according to a recent guest on George Galloway’s show ‘target acquisition’.
Two tier is a complete fraud. He is like Blair but much, much worse. Look at the damage done already in just a few months.
Still taking us for fools:
“British spies are investigating whether Russia was behind a series of arson attacks on Keir Starmer’s property,
… Western spies say they have recently uncovered Russian plots to bomb aeroplanes, torch public buildings and assassinate high-profile figures who back Ukraine.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14746459/Putin-Keir-Starmer-arson-attacks-Russia.html
Galloway was ripping the pish out of Starmer for this also… according to him it was allegedly three different “Ukrainian male models” who did the attacks. They have all been charged and will have their day(s) in court. Be very interesting to see what they say.
Which begs the obvious question, how did they know where his property was?
Some people are suggesting that ‘male model’ here might be a euphemism for another two word description. And / or that two tier is somehow compromised (kompromat) and this was a warning… So many questions… being studiously ignored by the media.
It does sort of put, the cutting of pensioners winter fuel allowances / and of disability allowances to effectively send to Ukraine instead, into a new and interesting context. And that bizarre 100 year pledge… 2T does seem A LOT more interested in stripping Britain bare to send to Ukraine… than anything remotely that he promised or said prior to winning the election. I wonder why.
Hmmm and now this series of strange attacks from allegedly three separate Ukrainian male models… yeah seems totally legit.
It wouldn’t have been difficult to find out where Starmer’s property was, or at least the one that the wretch used to live in:
2020:
https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/keir-starmer-emerges-his-kentish-town-home-10603357a
2024:
https://www.alamy.com/countess-road-nw5-in-kentish-town-in-north-london-home-of-labour-party-leader-sir-keir-starmer-for-17-years-before-he-became-the-uk-prime-minister-image612607149.html
The big question is why would anybody want to do this kind of thing? It’s absolutely not in the same ballpark as doing a Luigi.
According to Galloway it was two different houses/properties and a car that used to belong to Twin Tier…
As I said, how did they know. All three of them.
Three separate (ineffectual) attacks by allegedly three separate Ukrainian male models. It is totally bizarre.
IMHO someone is sending two tier a very big (coded) message there (and it ain’t Russia).
Very curious indeed.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/crime/russia-denies-links-to-keir-starmer-arson-attacks-after-three-men-charged
All three have connections with a high-profile public figure, according to the police. Lord Two Beards Lebedev? Just a guess.
“Be very interesting to see what they say.”
Don’t hold your breath. They won’t say one interesting word, unless they are desperate to be banged up for 20 years.
Are we insinuating here that 2T Keir has had some, err, shall we say, “unconventional” relations with these Eastern European “aspiring” models, and that these so-called models are part of a honey-pot scheme cooked up by the same folks who very likely funded Jeffrey Epstein’s blackmailing ooerations? And that British intel and media are now frantically trying to throw shade over this honey-pot blackmailing scheme in order to divert attention away from who might really be employing these young men and giving them information and instructions to burn Starmer’s former properties?
Stevie Boy.
Yes, why would three-Eastern European male models – burn down properties linked to Starmer the Zionist – what has Starmer been up to, or with whom – that we don’t yet know.
Well Epstein may have gone to that great glorious zionist reich in the sky, but his spirit remains in the UK with the pedo and grooming apologists in westminster …
To be fair, Pears on this very blog anticipated such a possible narrative of ‘Putin’s agents’ yesterday. Maybe that encouraged MI5 to feed the line to the Daily Mail.
The General Secretary of the Labour party, has said that Labour will no longer be releasing figures on membership numbers – that tells me, the Labour party is losing members at an alarming rate, which should be happening – to a party that supports a genocide by Zionists, and a Neo-Nazi dictatorship in Ukraine.
Oh well forget the fake disgust and mild condemnation of Israel by UK and others
Forget the 50 to 100 thousand dead and wounded in Gaza
Two Israel embassy aides were killed. According to Netanyahu it’s UK’s fault.
Yet another conveniently time birthday present for Netanyahu.
Maybe Mossad have been busy. Yes its a tragedy for those two killed and there families. But do we know the names of all those killed n Gaza will they get the same
world wide coverage . Will there murderers be arrested or even identified.
According to the BBC it’s all the fault of Hamas using human shields .
Yes every one killed in Gaza was a Human shield including the ones in hospital or who travelled to evacuation area’s at the direction of Israel.
“According to the BBC it’s all the fault of Hamas using human shields.”
* Abuse and terrorise someone, or a group
* Get a response.
* Use their response as justification for continuing to abuse and terrorise them.
There’s a f***ing lot of this about, right now.
Of course it’s long been the attitude of those with a bit of money and status where most working class people are concerned. But it’s intensifying.
Perhaps we can say that contemporary capitalist ideology is institutionally gaslightist? It certainly seems that way. See in Britain the way Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were subjected to horrendous state abuse for years, until the only way they could have a baby and protect the baby was to go underground, and then the baby died and the authorities are whooping it up saying it proves what inhuman scum they are. Apparently they only went on the run out of wickedness – a notion that obviously doesn’t stand up in the mind of any sane person. They are being portrayed as extreme nutters, the opposite of what we should all be, as nutters who suffer from having some kind of “problem” with the state, a sign of their feeling they’re “entitled” to think they know better than officials and professionals acting as officials.
Meanwhile hardly anybody notices that Mark Gordon is typically referred to in headlines as “Aristocrat Constance Marten’s boyfriend” rather than as a man in his own right (and actually he’s her husband BTW) – in an obvious echo of Lady Chatterley’s Lover, whose name was Oliver Mellors but you won’t spot it in very many places.
Well it’s no secret what Israel is doing and has been doing, so anyone who decides to work for Israel is making a conscious decision to support their genocidal agenda. No sympathy required.
Does anyone still believe that there is such a thing as an innocent or nice Israeli ?
“A new poll conducted by Penn State University found that 82 percent of Israelis support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, coinciding with an ongoing effort by Tel Aviv to forcibly displace and relocate the strip’s population. ”
https://thecradle.co/articles/over-80-percent-of-israelis-endorse-forced-expulsion-of-gazas-population-poll
The Israel story is one of the best illustrations of narrative manipulation and management by zionists. But the underlying racist settler principles behind it are really very simple. This interview by an Israeli psychotherapist who gave up her citizenship and moved to Australia a then to Scotland summarises this beautifully. I wonder whether Mr Murray knows her?
https://archive.org/details/APsychotherapistLooksAtIsrael
“Does anyone still believe that there is such a thing as an innocent or nice Israeli ?”
I do because that still leaves the other 18%, though I expect they will be deserting.
400,000 marched in Tel Aviv to object to the attacks on Gaza before October 7th. The Jewish and Palestinian mothers stood together in the press and communities. October 7th silenced dissent.
But it is so easy to get one group of people to hate another group. You get them to think of them as the enemy as animals. What did the American settlers think of the natives of the land the Savages as they were called.
My late mother helped make bombs to drop on German heads. Yet not two decades later we lived amongst them. My mums twin sister marrying a German. What are the Israel children taught as they get ready for compulsory service in the military. Maybe they believe that Hamas uses everyone as a human shield or that all Palestinians are plotting to kill all Israelis in there bed. There all terrorists. What do you do with vermin you have to kill them or drive them away. They need a buffer zone to keep them safe. All lies but do they know that.
“Does anyone still believe that there is such a thing as an innocent or nice Israeli ?”
Which reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9dmoT9AfoI
Of course, the objects of the satire were white Caucasian, the only ethnicity it is OK to hate. Spitting Image would never have got away with writing such a song about Israelis.
“False flags in the U.K. go back a long way as Annie Machon MI5 whistleblower long ago revealed the fake car bomb outside the embassy which was clearly identified by MI5 as a Mossad job
That was also the event that led to David Shayler leaving MI5 … and look what the secret state did to this courageous and once strong man. Last I heard, he was saying he was a woman and the Messiah.
Don’t underestimate the secret police.
See right now in British “politics” – the way that developments in the Labour and Conservative parties are being run according to order, to whip up support for the Reform Party in the population, with the key ideas being “Reform are on the up” and “voting for them can bring the real changes I want”.
Here’s a prediction based on that hypothesis…
… The story of the release of Tommy Robinson from jail will be juxtaposed and associated in the media-political spectacle with the idea that the Labour government, and also the Tory “opposition”, are neither capable nor credible on immigration – and on a specific policy or legislative matter concerning immigration that will be linked to specific dramatic goings-on – far more specific than “small boats”. I will not be surprised if Genocide Starmer himself, having wiped his fat mouth after his latest meeting with Zionists, gets involved in the story. Let’s say within 24 hours of Tommy Robinson coming through the prison gates. I’m talking about a story that plays to the idea that wimps have been letting foreigners in for years and it’s gotta stop, rape rape, woke woke, great replacement, wicked parasites, they’re taking our women, send ’em back, etc.
Both the main parties are being run deliberately to help Reform, in my opinion. There can’t exactly be an absence of involvement by the secret state in that.
Sometimes it’s very clear the lady doth protest too much, innit?
That’s our ‘media and academia’.
Let’s all jump up and down and squizzle point at our clowns as we deliberately turn our eyes from our bloody hands in Palestine and Ukraine.
Let’s divert the public attention away from the rearming of Germany and proxy Nazis again.
Let’s not see the deliberate coke snorting, rent boy exploitation, girl’s prostituting as a career choice! A million ukropians dead, 6 millions more migrated – for what? For who?
The shapeshifters! As they aim to preserve their foot in the door of the EurAsian steppes and expand in West Asia.
Don’t look there – a family of 9 brothers and sisters killed together in Gaza to join dozens more every single day. A Ho dates stops them? Not those they are backed by – yup not even the Turks wholly owned since being dismantled a century ago from their ‘caliphate’ the shapeshifters taking over. Running their natzio milltary and industry. Happily feeding from their roles as gatekeepers of Europe. Guard Dogs who must live in their kennel not be European themselves!
Turks and India! L
Apparently it’s more important to cry tears over our own media and academia excusing austerity.
Oh look the Fartrage is calling the shots again at the inevitable reversal of Brexshit freedom restrictions – I said at the time it was a con.
A fix, a postal voter fraud.
Now that the City is freed of any legal obligations and the Freeport’s are ready to divide the British isles into fiefdoms that will claim to be outside of regulation and taxes!
Our media and academia whores rabble rouse against Russia and China. Don’t look at our own shitty doorstep and house.
Crying wolf as the POLYCENTRIC world order destroys their masters comforts of centuries of exploitation of the Global South’s peoples and resources.
With the interweb and AI it’s going to be impossible to hide who was on the wrong side in the future – shapeshifters will not so easily escape the justice of posterity. As they did during the last centuries. No matter how many books they burn.
I’ll retry my miss typed injunction of above
Come friendly drones and pick off with deadly accuracy the murderous dynasties and their war forges.
The internet is centralised.
What is your point about artificial intelligence? Surely you don’t believe in AI for the people??
Methinks the people for AI is a more likely future development/constructive and disruptive virtual reality.
Thank you for your post, DunGroanin.
I was thinking about philosophical topics, namely about people’s motives that make them support one side or another in a conflict, finding reasons to justify certain actions.
The
sponsortrigger for my mental worries was the discussions of the last few days on this site, where the historical relations between Russia and Finland were mentioned, and also the words of Mr. Murray in the previous blog, where he used the “Chechen War for Independence”.I noted that I don’t even have anything to start with to say how painfully these formulations resonate in the heart of a Russian. Because for us, Finland and the WW2 are the siege of Leningrad. And Chechen “independence” is Beslan and Dubrovka, not counting other terrorist attacks that were less “fruitful in victims toll”.
Then an idea came to me, simple on the surface:
people see independence as a value, and justify the actions of a group of people to achieve independence.
But there are other values, such as the right of a human being to live.Values constitute a paradigm, like a system of tenses or cases in Grammar. So, it’s wrong to argue one’s point of view by appealing to only one element of the system. It would be equivalent to saying that the Genitive is more valuable than the Nominative, or the Future Simple is more valuable than the Future Continuous.
Having that in mind, I confess that in my personal value system, human life is an Absolute. I believe that the most important is that we are alive, and everything else can be negotiated.
And therefore, people who value independence above human lives seem to me radicals and fools driven by emotions.
The right to live may be not written somewhere in the UN Charter. And perhaps that’s why people think that someone has the right to kill to achieve what they want.
I don’t think people value independence above human life because of ignorance. It would be impossible in our Internet era.
I could, of course, enter into discussions about Finland, telling how the lands of the Finns were long the subject of wars of monarchist wars between Sweden and Russia. How in the WW1 Finland fought for Germany, how after the overthrow of the monarchy in Russia society went over to a civil war between Monarchists and Bolsheviks, which happened in Finland too, but the Monarchists won there. And their parliament chose a descendant of the German king as their ruler. And how the USSR approached the newly independent Finland with an offer to exchange strategically important places for territory twice as large. And how Finland refused, and then united with the Germans in the WW2 to support the nazi genocide of Russians.
They saw living Russians as a threat to their independence. Just like today’s Ukrainian regime sees living Russians as a threat, so much so that one can get prosecuted by the National Security Service if one is asked to sing a song in Ukrainian and one rolles their eyes up.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/ukraine-date-nov-2023/page/46/#post-104084
I mention this because (*sorry Shibboleth) if we want to eradicate hatred, before we start shaking hands I’d like to know their hierarchy of values. I mean, that Ukrainian friend of yours, who sings beautifully and is a pleasure to accompany, do they include “my father Bandera” in their repertoire? Do they consider him a national hero? Because to me he is a Nazi collaborator who wants to see his patch of land cleansed of all other ethnicities.
I also won’t shake hands with Netanyahu and anyone who supports his methods of achieving Israel’s “exclusive right to live on that patch of land”.
I saw this terrifying news today about a female doctor in Palestine whose 9 children were killed in one israeli strike. Can someone tell me for what high purpose these innocents were killed?
Thank you hugely, Mods!
And I’d also add that I’m not a supporter of any of the religions that humanity has invented to date. My worldview is based on simple rational earthly humanity. That is, we exist and I’d like we continue to exist as a species, and not exterminate each other.
But hearing that a woman lost 9!!! of her children!!! in one day!!! I really wish that Evolution would give us all a gift and manifest itself as a real higher power.
Like, people in whose brains these deaths are justified for the sake of exclusive rights to territory – such a neural connection in their brains would be evolutionarily combined with the self-destruction program of the carrier organism.
It would be the best confirmation of many religious dogmas too, imo.
Did you know that certain circles that consider themselves liberal are testing the limits of tolerance? These limits are extremely flexible in new growing people without experience (the young).
Get ready
“80 years ago, a bloody communist dictator drove the leader of the United Europe to suicide”
How do you like it? They bring it as humor, but I assure you, there’s a number of people who perceive this at the face value, due to their mental abilities or their nationalistic beliefs.
Moreover, with the totalitarian control of the Internet and the becoming of card indexes with printed information more and more obsolete, this statement above may well become the accepted norm, after you and I are dead and there’s no one left to testify to the truth.
Tatyana
You said that “And how Finland refused, and then united with the Germans in the WW2 to support the nazi genocide of Russians.”
You omit mention of the Soviet invasion of Finland, the “Winter War” which was a defensive war fought by Finland against the brutal but incompetent Stalin regime.
In that war, Finland had no allies and in particular was not allied with Nazi Germany.
Ironically, at that time the USSR had undertaken the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact which (secretly ) placed Finland in the Soviet “sphere of influence”. So the USSR was far closer to being an ally of the Nazi regime than was Finland.
Finland did later in WW2 cooperate with the Nazi regime in attempt to retrieve the lands stolen by the USSR, they were under pressure from the Nazis and saw them understandably but mistakenly as the lesser of two evils.
Perhaps you believe that Finland should have allied with their invader, the USSR?
”Finland did later in WW2 cooperate with the Nazi regime in attempt to retrieve the lands stolen by the USSR, they were under pressure from the Nazis and saw them understandably but mistakenly as the lesser of two evils.”
The word ‘cooperate’ does not really cover it. Some German divisions were fighting under Finnish command. Thousands of Russian POWs died in Finnish concentration camps. Western historians scratch their chins debating the degree of Finnish involvement in the Siege of Leningrad but the Russian people are not so confused.
Finnish talk of ‘merely retrieving lands stolen by Russia’ was very loud when their axis allies were on the front foot. They were after a bit more than that. After Stalingrad and Kursk they changed their tune and started calling for a cease fire with the USSR. It all sounds depressingly familiar. Maybe Zelinsky knows his history better than I thought.
The notion that Finland only fought alongside Nazis in order to achieve its territorial integrity is absurd: the project for Germania had been outlined by Hitler years in advance and Finnish independence was no more on the agenda than a united Ireland would have been had the IRA thrown in their lot along with the Nazis.
I recall I was once told here on this site that studying history “on your side” is like memorizing a list of kings and their wars.
It’s not like that with us. We study how human societies and their ideas changed during this or that historical period.
In between the first and second world wars, the Russian Empire ceased to exist, and the Bolsheviks took power. The idea was to remove monarchy, the power of the elite minority, and give power to the majority, that is, the workers and peasants. To make education accessible to everyone, to make the state social.
In Finland, the supporters of this idea lost to the monarchists.
Thus, the form of government was already sufficient ground for conflict with the USSR. But not the only one.
As usual, upon gaining independence, a human community strives to reserve a piece of land for its genetic line. Nationalism, a modern form of tribal and even animal territorial instinct, something that the Soviet Union tried to remove from people’s consciousness, promoting the Internationalism, the Brotherhood of peoples.
The Finnish society of that era went the opposite way, choosing nationalism, choosing the Kaiser’s Germany as an ally, and then Nazi Germany. In 1918 they already had concentration camps for the “Reds”, and in 1941 they put people of “incomprehensible” nationality, that is, not related to the Finno-Ugrians, in the camps. Finland then occupied Russian Karelia and organized 13 camps there.
Back then, in the beginning of the 20 century, with WW1 still going and with the overthrow of the monarchy in Russia, newly independent Georgia created a concentration camp in Kutaisi and simply placed all Armenian men between the ages of 18 and 45 there. Have you ever heard about that?
You know, some people don’t like the word “concentration camp”, they prefer softer descriptions, like “internment”. You know, like the USA “interned” 120 thousand Americans of Japanese descent after Pearl Harbor.
You should have a separate word for democratic concentration camp to distinguish it from the terrible camps of the USSR, right? I wonder, what’s the word for the camps of Strzałków, Wadowice, Tuchol, Szczypiorno, Dąbie, Brest-Litovsk in Poland? Those were created for the “Reds” somewhere in the 1920s.
Tatyana
May 26, 2025 at 07:05
Tatyana, you didn’t respond to my observation that you ignored the Winter War, the Stalin regime’s war of aggression on Finland.
How about your observation that Joe Biden is “a decent man” at a time when you knew he was butchering the world’s most vulnerable women and children? Do you think that in any way undermines your posturing as a liberal moralist?
zoot
May 26, 2025 at 08:34
Zoot
I’ll wait for Tatyana’s reply before addressing your interesting post in detail but for the avoidance of doubt I despise the Netanyahu regime, strongly oppose its genocide in Gaza and Palestine generally and regard Biden’s uncritical support for Israel as his greatest mistake.
Avoidance of doubt yeah? Literally nobody who opposes the genocide would have said that at the height of it last summer.
Not possible.
zoot
May 26, 2025 at 10:29
Zoot
No offense but I’m more interested to see Tatyana’s reply to my observation.
I’m authorized to state that Tatyana has lost her desire to communicate with you after your latest toxic behavior.
Tatyana
May 26, 2025 at 15:07
Tatyana.
“Toxic”? Really?
Nevermind, the history of the interaction of the USSR with its neighbours is an unhappy one.
Bayard
May 26, 2025 at 21:15
Bayard, you don’t believe that the WW was an attack by the USSR on Finland?
There was (as before the Nazi attack on Poland) a staged casus belli by the USSR .
Is that what you believe justified the invasion?
Otherwise I’m at a loss to understand why you (if I interpret your post correctly) deny that the WW was an attack by the USSR on Finland.
Or perhaps you accept that it was an attack by the USSR on Finland but believe that it was justified?
“Otherwise I’m at a loss to understand why you (if I interpret your post correctly) deny that the WW was an attack by the USSR on Finland.”
You don’t. Like the last time, you completely miss my point. I said then that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was not a straightforward example of a country being invaded by a larger neighbour and you appeared to understand from that that I thought it was not an invasion, rather than I thought it was an invasion, but not a straightforward example of one of that kind. This time I say that the history of the Winter War was not straightforward and you ask whether I am denying that that war was an attack of the USSR on Finland. Yes there are invasions that are straightforward cases of aggression, usually when one country has resources that the other country covets. These days it’s usually oil, but sometimes other minerals, even water. However that doesn’t mean that all such wars fall into this category.
“You omit mention of the Soviet invasion of Finland, the “Winter War” which was a defensive war fought by Finland against the brutal but incompetent Stalin regime.”
How history repeats itself! Before your return under a pseudonym, Craig wrote a post on the Winter War. Perhaps it was while you were away. It was very much like the Russo-Ukraine War: the UK and Germany were helping the Finns fight the “brutal” Russians, whilst not being formally allies. (The Russians are always “brutal”, are they not? so perhaps that word is a bit otiose in this context.) Also no account is taken of the lead-up to the war. Stalin, like Putin later, is supposed to have invaded on a whim.
Bayard
May 26, 2025 at 18:22
Bayard, apart from Craig most (all?) posters here use pseudonyms.
I’ll check CM’s archives for his post on the WW. However the history is straightforward.
The Winter War was an invasion of Finland by the incompetent but (yes) brutal Red Army.
Incompetent because Great Stalin had murdered so many of its officer corps.
Brutal because the conscripts were used by leaders indifferent to their deaths.
The individual soldiers were just men like soldiers of any country.
Their leaders were incompetent and brutal, fearing (with good reason) for their lives at the hands of the Red Tsar.
You say “How history repeats itself! ” I can only agree.
“Bayard, apart from Craig most (all?) posters here use pseudonyms.”
but very few first post under their own name and make a big thing of doing so, then change and return under a pseudonym.
“However the history is straightforward.”
Once again, only from where you stand. Sadly, most history is written by people with agendas to advance, even if it is to prove that other authors are biased and wrong. It is only this that gives the impetus to put pen to paper in the first place. This has been the case for hundreds of years. It is very rarely “straightforward” and almost always the result of careful cherrypicking. Official documents can be accurate, but such things are very boring to read. A historian wants people to read their work and cannot include all the facts, although I have read historical works where more than half the book is taken up with footnotes, but such things are rare.
JK Redux
It is very simplistic to say that the WW was unprovoked aggression by the Soviet Union. The period preceding this was characterised by the Soviet Union trying to form an alliance with France and Britain but this was turned down. The Soviet Union had felt vulnerable and tried to negotiate a land swap with Finland because of the proximity of the Finish border to Leningrad. In fact they were justified by the events that followed when the Finns allied with the Germans in the seige of Leningrad which led to the death of over a million civilians.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/?s=finland+winter+war
“Then an idea came to me, simple on the surface: people see independence as a value, and justify the actions of a group of people to achieve independence.”
As well as Chechenya, Kosovo’s independence was seen as a good thing, but Scotland’s and Catalunya’s not so much, except, of course, amongst Scots and Catalans. Germany’s reunification was also seen as beneficial, Ireland’s and Cyprus’s less so. Are we beginning to see a pattern here?
“the words of Mr. Murray in the previous blog, where he used the “Chechen War for Independence”.”
Craig is still on a journey from Liberalism to the left. It’s difficult to reverse all your long held views all at once. I’m sure he’ll get there in his own time.
Agree with Tatyana, the most important and overarching right is the Human Rights act applying to all humans on earth, regardless of their beliefs and or religion.
It is the most precious right we all have and well worth defending from the current fascist tendencies, which are negating, ignoring and kicking all we adhered to and were ruled by, into the mud of history.
Those who call themselves lawyers are now bending the laws they created out of shape, replacing them with hamhanded short term decisions they have no mandate for.
Thanks for bringing it up.
Two tier has made himself the most loathed PM in living memory, doing things that even Thatcher would never have done, betraying every single Labour voter within an incredibly short period of time since getting elected. That after getting elected with a ‘landslide’ (although it wasn’t really given the turnout).
And why has he done this? Why destroy all your political capital so quickly doing what he did.
Everything that Starmer has done that has destroyed him and the Labour party (at the next election) can be summed as ‘cutting core services to the most vulnerable people in the UK so he can reroute that money to Zelensky / Ukraine’.
And that is exactly what he has done. Completely fucked over everyone who voted for him to send the money to Ukraine. To cut the winter fuel allowance after the energy prices had gone up so much is psychotic, homicidal, no other words for it. Totally depraved.
2T seems highly compromised. He does not seem to be working for ‘us’ at all. The clamp down on free speech was all very obviously planned in advance to accompany the total betrayal that was also clearly planned well in advance.
It is all sinister as fuck as is Starmer himself.
He has also increased military aid to Israel fourfold since taking office, knowing they are committing the most depraved crimes against humanity since WW2.
https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-blood-will-never-wash-from-keir-starmers-hands/
If you are consumer of the BBC or Guardian however he remains the very best of us and a moral guide to the world.
Well, Starmer is actually a true zionist and their agenda is transparently obvious: funding wars against their enemies, using proxy nations to fight their wars and undermining nations cohesiveness by pushing immigration and agendas of perverse minority groups. Starmer is excelling in the destruction of the UK for zion. He married into genocide and his kids are being brought up as genociders. And, that’s not mentioning his nefarious ties with security services.
Starmer is one of the biggest threats to the UK, he is the enemy.
“And why has he done this?”
Supporting Ukraine means that he gets to ponce around with the likes of Macron, Merz and Tusk as part of the “Coalition of the Willing” and feel a great international statesman. Looking after the poor and vulnerable doesn’t.
Well Mac, I have to say that this has been a consistent pattern of behaviour in the so-called ‘Labour’ Party for a long time. In my opinion it goes back to their origins partly with the ‘gradualist’ Fabian Society. To be fair, they never claimed (except on the far outskirts) to be a revolutionary party, but it beats me why anyone with a brain would ever bother to vote for them.
Labour parties do not have to be socialist and often are not. This is all explained by George Bernard Shaw in ‘The intelligent Woman’s guide to socialism’. The trade union movement is co-opted within the capitalist system to manage labour for the mutual benefit of the capitalist class and the workers. This explains why the Labour Party has always considered any socialist members as entryists and fought against them. Currently you may notice that all labour politicians keep emphasising that they are on the side of the hard working people with little consideration for those who are retired or unemployed or sick or disabled. In a way Labour has not abandoned its ideals, we have misunderstood them.
What the actual fuck is Farage by the way. He goes on a ‘planned’ holiday in the week that Two Tier essentially reverses BREXIT. I don’t believe that was just a coincidence. He’ll ‘reform’ fuck all is my bet.
It really is starting to feel that the UK/EU is a sinking ship here. It is eating itself. Death by psychotic Spookocracy. Look what they have inflicted upon us over the last 30 years… all that woke shit has originated with them for sure. This is an accumulation of deep structural damage that can’t be fixed quickly.
Galloway made a point the other day that sticks with me. BREXIT was never implemented, we never took advantage of it to save the steel industry for example by implementing any form of ‘economic nationalism’. This is essentially what Russia has done after the (disastrous) sanctions. That was a gift to them (Putin even said so beforehand). It was a huge strategic mistake, massive.
But all our ‘leaders’ are globalist weirdo drones who sing from same shitty hymn sheet. And I do mean weirdo.
Farage is a trojan horse, at best. If he is the answer what was the question ?
” If he is the answer what was the question ?”
I expect it was, “Who is the next oligarchs’ puppet the UK is going to be saddled with?”
The rise of the professional MP is a sign of the corporatisation of British politics and every corporation has directors and owners.
It is not about industrial or economic nationalism iInstead of taking care of our core industries and infrastructure because of the false dogma that state run industries and services are inefficient when run by our government, they are instead privatised to state run companies from China and France and to corporations. The reasons behind all this go back to the enduring deep seated hatred of socialism in this society that claims to be democratic but strongly believes in hereditary rights of monarchy, a glaring anachronism.
This hatred for socialism endures in the west and has led to the complete decline of socialist parties in Europe. A disease that was once centred on the US is now pan European.
Brexit could have worked but has no hope of working now but neither can the EU which has lost its meaning by becoming political with no tolerance for alternative views . Any ideals have completely been abandoned in favour of rampant corporate neoliberalism which is an insidious form of fascism complete with state control and surveillance. As someone said “1984 was meant to be a warning and not a blueprint for Britain “.
I have heard several clued up folk say that behind the scenes it is the UK that is most rabid for war with Russia. I always found it hard to believe as I could never make sense of it but it is true. It is now especially obvious with Trump in office as he wants out but who is leading the charge to escalate the war instead even if the Yanks bail… you guessed it. Two Tier Kier.
No one can understand where Britain’s mad Russia-phobia comes from. It apparently goes back two hundred years and no one seems to understand exactly why it started. The best explanation seems to be ‘we were a great power then, they were a great power too, so let’s hate them for the next 200+ years’. It does not make a lot of sense. And even more perplexing is why has it now continued to this day, it is baffling, and it has become insane enough to actually want to get into a hot war with Russia. I don’t care how clever they think they are, they are clearly insane. And I think we are seeing evidence for it in their callousness to the most vulnerable people in the UK, people they are supposed to be ‘protecting’.
If Europe no longer has access to cheap energy then Europe can no longer compete and is going to deindustrialize, it is already happening.
That makes cutting ourselves off from cheap Russian gas and the bombing of nordstream the biggest act of economic suicide in world history. The USA will be fine selling us their overpriced energy and Russia is doing great by all accounts post sanctions, it is going to us, Europe who are royally fucked over.
The solution is pretty obvious, reverse course, but instead we have a wierdo PM who is absolutely intent on war with a nuclear superpower and no one can really understand why. All of this was so completely unnecessary.
Mac, as to the reason why the UK, and particularly some elements within “the City” are so rabidly anti-Russian, one possible reason imho, is revenge for Czar Alexander iirc sending warships to assist the erstwhile separatist during the American War of Independence. I’m not sure if that is true, just something i saw on a youtube. Nevertheless, if it is true, talk about holding grudge !
Probably the faux hatred can be traced back to the imperialist propaganda fed to the ‘trainee leaders’ at places like Harrow, Eton and the other public/private schools that the establishment send their brats to. Comes back to the problems caused by having professional politicians chosen by money rather than merit and experience. Time to flush all the sh*te into the Thames !
Also, more recently, the USSR posed a threat to something dear to the City of Londons heart, and incidentally, Washington’s – the Capitalist system. And Russia is still the biggest country, with the deepest and most desirable resources, on the Eurasian continent.
American War of Independence coincided with the reign of the Russian Empress Catherine, who founded the city where I live.
The British approached her with a request to create a military alliance and send 20 thousand soldiers to America. She declined. A second request came a couple of years later, when Spain entered the war, but Catherine again declined.
This woman created the “first league of armed neutrality”, supported by Europe, but inconvenient for Britain, since it didn’t allow blockading American ports.
Towards the end of the war, Britain made Catherine an offer to give the island of Menorca to Russia, in exchange for military aid, but she not only declined, but also made it public. So Britain has many reasons to dislike the Russians.
The reign of Alexander II coincided with the Civil War in the USA. I’m not sure if he sent any warships, but it was exactly he who sold Russian Alaska to the USA.
In between, there was the Anglo-American War, and Alexander I was ruling in Russia, but I don’t think he could send ships, since we ourselves were a bit busy with Napoleon.
Late to the discussion but Tsar Alexander II did indeed send a warship, maybe two warships, to San Francisco during the US Civil War to stop the British from seizing California.
” Russia is doing great by all accounts ”
If you think 10% inflation and 21% interest rate constitutes ‘doing great’; food prices have risen even more and the fall in oil prices has made a massive ‘black hole’ in the economy. Russia has had to raid its sovereign wealth fund to keep the war gong and some economists are warning that it will run out of reserves by the end of the year.
The core reason for ‘Russophobia’ as you put it isn’t anything to do with what some long dead Tsar did 250 years ago (which few people are aware of and which has been heavily exaggerated anyway) but fear of that megalomaniac in the Kremlin. Even Trump has woken up to the fact that he’s ‘crazy’, something most of us have been aware of for years. Putin has been the best recruiting sergeant NATO could’ve wished for as former Warpac nations and neutrals sought protection. The invasion of Ukraine proves that their fears were not unfounded.
Ukrainian propaganda reports that things are so bad in Russia that we catch hedgehogs for food and take electronic components out of washing machines for military purposes.
Tatyana, I appreciate your comments, information (e.g. facts about Russian history unknown to most of us here in the US´s soft power grip) and your down-to-earth opinions very much. Thank you. – A bit off, maybe: Rheinmetall (1933 – 1945 “Reichswerke Hermann Göring” ) intend to build a major production facility in GB, and may already have started construction works in Ukraine .
Thank you, Svea. Modesty is a virtue, but it’s not my case 🙂 I think my comments liven up the discussion quite a bit 🙂 I wrote one with historical and linguistic information. I’ll post it below if you don’t mind a long read.
“Even Trump has woken up to the fact that he’s ‘crazy’, ”
Low bar indeed if we quote Trump to prove a point.
Even so was trump told that preceding the ‘crazy’ retaliation Ukraine on the previous night, Ukraine launched over 1000 drones to hit Russian civilians?
Also Pears, isn’t Russophobia, however it originated, a form of racism where a whole nation is tarred by the action of leaders and by stereotyping. Just do this thought experiment, would you be able to make a justification for a well known ant-******** by quoting bad historical deeds of the victims?
“but fear of that megalomaniac in the Kremlin. ”
Funny how the British have never feared any of the megalomaniacs in the White House who have unleashed an unending series of wars on the world resulting in millions of deaths. In most cases they have joined in, which suggests that there is very little in the way of fear for war. Even a brief study of history shows that the British government has always had to have an enemy. For hundreds of years their enemies were the French and the Muslims, then it was the Spanish, then it was the French again, then the Russians, then the Germans, then the Russians again and the Germans again. Now it’s the Muslims and the Russians again. There’s only a handful of countries in the world that they haven’t had as their enemies.
If you got out of your straitjacket a bit more, Pears, you might get to know what is really happening, but I suppose they won’t let you.
“and the fall in oil prices has made a massive ‘black hole’ in the economy.”
Has it also made massive “black holes” in the economies of all the other oil-producing nations and if not, why not?
“No one can understand where Britain’s mad Russia-phobia comes from. It apparently goes back two hundred years and no one seems to understand exactly why it started. The best explanation seems to be ‘we were a great power then, they were a great power too, so let’s hate them for the next 200+ years’.
Every state needs an enemy to distract the population from its rulers’ incompetencies. Russia makes a good enemy for the UK. Occasionally we have had to U-turn and ally with them, but such periods have been mercifully brief and always when we had another enemy to hand anyway. I think firstly it was imperial rivalry, then it was hatred of the communists, now it’s just that need for an enemy and a large chunk of the population haven’t recovered from the anti-soviet conditioning of their youth and middle age. I have, this year been called a Commie for pointing out that a piece of anti-Russian propaganda was a lie.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with being called a ‘commie’. I quite often boast of it. Other times I’m a ‘Trotskyist’ which for some incomprehensible reason drives some people mad.
I note too that President Putin has West Ukrainian male models in his intelligence services who set fire to some properties connected to our Prime Minister. Clearly Russian Intelligence are struggling as the car being set fire to hadn’t been owed by the PM for some years. The question is how many West Ukrainian male models does it take to change a light bulb? Answers to MI5.
Our world is really small and everything in it is connected.
At the time of 25-20 thousand years ago (starting from such a distance makes me smile and remember the amazed face of Tucker Carlson when Putin started from afar with his interview) our planet was going through the Last Glacial Maximum. Around this time, somewhere on the planet, in warmer place, a baby boy with a certain set of genes was born. The place known today as the East European Plain was a glacier.
A few thousand years later, when this part of our continent from the North to the Black Sea, and from the Ural and Caucasus Mountains to the Sudetenland and the Vistula River lost its ice, and the post-glacial swamps dried up, then the descendants of that boy populated this land.
Those people spoke the language they learned from their fathers, and those from their fathers, and so on and so on until very ancient times, when this was a small tribe of closely related people. Simply this is the way humans learn a language. We get it from our parents as well as genes.
The toponyms of this region will tell you that people often used D and N to name rivers. The Dnieper, Don and Dvina rivers flow here. And a little further in Europe, the Dniester and Danube run, which undoubtedly arouses linguistic interest and may indicate the dispersal of the proto-language speakers.
So, people populated the region, founding new settlements further and further away in free places, and each separate group acquired new genetic mutations and their language also acquired differences.
Today, some curious linguists will discover the most ancient roots of our once common proto-language in Sanskrit and Lithuanian. Just imagine the breadth of geography and the depth of centuries! Did you know that they used the word “kaka” for excrement? This word is used unchanged with the same meaning in modern Russian. And we can ask LaGuerre whether it has remained in Persian.
Well. Curious linguists are sometimes born in curious places. The Don River flows in the Voronezh region, where there’s a village where my mother and I were born (I translated its name as SparrowHills, because the Russian original only mentions sparrows, and I would also like to note the wonderful white chalk hills, indicating that the area was the bottom of an ancient ocean).
A couple of hours’ drive from this wonderful in every sense village there’s Golubaya Krinitsa place (Blue Well). Here, archaeologists have excavated a burial site dating back about 7,500 years. Geneticists have found the very same ancient genes in the remains, this is the earliest known confirmed sample.
And so in 2015, Marija Gimbutas’ theory was confirmed: it was from this region of the Black Sea steppes that our ancestors populated Europe and Asia, carrying haplogroups R1a and R1b, approximately 4,000 years before Jesus Christ died (and presumably resurrected after).
Genetic studies show that these people traveled far into Europe, that the late Neolithic population of Germany had ¾ of their genes, that modern Scots, Welsh, Irish, Scandinavians and Baltic people are the closest genetically, and that genetic markers are ubiquitous in present-day Europeans.
—
However, one day an Austrian artist will decide that he belongs to a very special genetic line, and the rest are genetically inferior and should be enslaved or exterminated. This charismatic leader will lead his army to his own ancestral homeland to make these lands Liebensraum for the Germans.
80 years after his suicide, another German fool will say that Germany will never recognize Russia’s sovereignty over the Voronezh region.
She will say this in support of another group of people who believe that they are special and have the exclusive right to establish their own laws on this piece of land: to change toponyms, dictate to people what language they should speak and how to pray to God, and will bomb those who do not agree to obey.
This is how the Crimeans bitterly joke:
“Kiev said that those who disagree with their policies can pack their belongings and leave the country. We simply did it. We left the country with our belongings, including our land.”
Today Germany will lift restrictions on the range of weapons that they supply to Ukraine. Germany supports the idea that it’s this government that should establish these rules on this piece of land. And with a straight face they call it democracy
Know your history, guys. You can look at the map – this is the homeland of our ancestors, the place where I live, the place that some American dude with too many fingers pointed out for long-range missiles.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Yamna-en.svg#/media/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Yamna-en.svg
The peace talks in Istanbul have been restarted, the 1000 for 1000 prisoner exchange has been completed, the parties are preparing their notes on how they see a possible peace. Why is Germany now deciding on an open escalation? What if this is because the national hero of the Kiev regime was an admirer of the ideas of an Austrian artist?
“Liebensraum for the Germans.”
Would that it had been! A space for Germans to love it was not, more a space for them to hate the people that they found already there.
Sorry. Must be Lebensraum. Some linguists get too carried away instead of checking spelling 🙂
some literal translations for you: the artists you´re referring to was born in a place called ” flooded brown plains ” frequently (flooded by the nearby alpine river) ; later on he took residence in BERL…. (old Polabian) meaning “swamp”. The upright black bear in this city´s coat of arms has its back turned to the east, stretching its arms and paws westward. – thx for long history lesson – loved reading it.
I’m not sure where on the forums to post this obituary to John Young, founder and maintainer of the original leaks site Cryptome.
Given how Cryptome had significant bearing on the Assange case I thought people here might like to know he has passed away.
The link to the obituary is:
https://www.theregister.com/2025/05/24/john_young_obituary/?td=rt-3a
Joseph Neumayer is a Zionist – a false-flag event.
“Joining our partners, I can confirm that today FBI agents arrested Joseph Neumayer, a dual U.S. and German citizen, on allegations of planning to firebomb the United States Embassy in Tel Aviv, Israel — as well as threats made against President Trump’s life on social media.
Neumayer was arrested earlier this week in Israel — when Embassy officials discovered a backpack carrying multiple explosive devices and a social media account allegedly linked to Neumayer detailing intent to attack the Embassy and threatening President Trump.
Israel returned him to the U.S. as of this morning, where our special agents arrested him at John F. Kennedy airport.
He will now face justice.
Thank you to our agents, intelligence teams, and partners both at home and around the world for your work in this case.”
Said FBI Director Kash Patel.
The Irish bottled it.
“Ireland has become the first EU member state to declare the building of Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories as de facto annexation, after the Dáil on Wednesday night passed a motion tabled by Sinn Fein.
The Dáil rejected, however, a proposal to expel the Israeli ambassador to the Republic and impose comprehensive sanctions against Israel by 87 votes to 46, with no abstentions.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/ireland-becomes-first-eu-country-to-declare-israel-is-involved-in-de-facto-annexation-1.4576250
RoS, that Irish Times article you link is from 2021. I think it’s a little past its sell by date.
More recently, Simon Harris, now deputy PM has said the following:
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/simon-harris-says-world-not-35269114
I apologise for the link to the Irish mirror and I had a better link earlier but can’t find it again.
The actual bill is here:
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/6/
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2018/6/eng/initiated/b0618s.pdf
“Bill entitled an Act to give effect to the State’s obligations arising under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and under customary international humanitarian law; and for that purpose to make it an offence for a person to import or sell goods or services originating in an occupied territory or to extract resources from an occupied territory in certain circumstances; and to provide for related matters”
“Extra-territorial application of this Act
5. (1) This section applies to—
(a) a person who is an Irish citizen or ordinarily resident in the State,
(b) a company incorporated under the Companies Act 2014, and
(c) an unincorporated body whose centre of control is exercised in Ireland”
The company that comes to mind is Google.
Note: this is the bill that’s currently before the Irish parliament even if it’s dated 2018.
Google’s European, Middle East, and Africa (EMEA) headquarters is based in Dublin.
Google provides services to the Occupation’s military (as also do Amazon and Microsoft). They also send lots of money to the Occupation – “match donations”. They are part of ZOG in all but name.
Shut them down.
Tiocfaidh ár lá.
Take their patents and money first then Shut them down.
Tiocfaidh ár lá.
Thank ET, my mistake.
In a normal world, the “international community” facing such thing as an obvious genocide and blatant and repeated crimes against humanity, would:
– Demand an immediate end to the genocide, immediate entry of massive aid to Palestinians victims of this genocide
– Enact massive sanctions against the genocidal entity called “Israel”
– Enact an ultimatum to this entity with clear demands as stated above, after which:
-The “international community” will gather a coalition with or without the corrupt UN approval
– This coalition will bomb “Israel” out of Gaza and the West Bank and keep striking it until the zionist entity leaves Gaza entirely, leaves the West Bank and ends the genocide.
Then,
– An international tribunal will be setup to try all the criminals involved in this genocide, not only two or three of them but the all chain of command and decision makers
– Enact reparations to be paid by the entity called “Israel” to its victims for the wrong done to them since 1948
– Oblige the entity called “Israel” to leave all Palestinian occupied territories
– Officially create the nation of Palestine within its approved borders (1948 or 1967 to negotiate)
– Allow and facilitate the return of all Palestinian whose land and homes have been stolen since 1948
– Leave an occupation force from several countries to make sure no new aggression will take place and to enforce the establishment of the peace settlement, reparations and the Palestinian state.
That would be a fair settlement.
Isn’t what the so-called western ‘democracies’ have done in Serbia and other places, using the alibi of human rights, genocide and ‘democracy’ ‘?
So let’s apply the same rules to “Israel”.
I agree with you fischertemplinhoffmann, however this 800 Lawyers letter will cause the Labour government no end of trouble.
The UK government is under pressure from 800 Lawyers to impose sanctions on Israel, not just to just talk about it. It must be remembered that the UK’s obligations are not that Genocide is taking place, but merely that there is a risk that it might take place, that bar was reached in the first weeks of the massacre, complete with the Genocidal statements from many Israeli cabinet ministers.
“The UK must impose sanctions on the Israeli government and its ministers and also consider suspending it from the UN to meet its “fundamental international legal obligations”, more than 800 lawyers, academics and retired senior judges, including former supreme court justices, have said.
There is mounting evidence of genocide, which is either being perpetrated or at a minimum at serious risk of occurring, the letter states, highlighting recent comments by the Israeli finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, who said Israel’s army would “wipe out” what remains of Palestinian Gaza”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/27/uk-must-impose-sanctions-on-israel-to-meet-legal-obligations-say-more-than-800-lawyers
“In a normal world, the “international community” facing such thing as an obvious genocide and blatant and repeated crimes against humanity, ….”
I’m not sure what you mean by “normal”. History shows us that what is happening now is pretty normal. Not good, but normal. Good is abnormal.
More from George Galloway on the three separate “Ukrainian male models, massage artists and (ahem) aspiring actors”. (They’ve had an upgrade by Galloway lol).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9cbABULIcY&ab_channel=GeorgeGalloway
He is confidently predicting that two tier will not be PM by year end.
I am starting to think this is exactly the purpose of these three separate ‘attacks’. Why three? Well you can’t suicide all three or call them mad can you! Safety in numbers when it comes to Ukrainian male models, massage artists and aspiring actors it seems.
Clearly the attacks were designed to garner maximum publicity without being any kind of serious attempt to harm two tier, the attacks seem more to embarrass him. And raise all sorts of very awkward and difficult questions just as George Galloway is doing to his enormous audience…
The fact the media and the ‘opposition’ are not barking tells us a lot IMHO. I am just not sure what at this point.
And then they will all get their day in court. Who knows what they will say. It does seem though that this is all designed to get precisely that… a day in court with the world’s media in attendance.
The whole thing looks like an op of some description. It is starting to get Skripal’esque already. Craig is going to busy on this one. lol.
I haven’t read or watched any of the Galloway stuff, so apologies if it’s been covered. But, apparently …
2TK has been renting out his London properties at next to nothing to family members whilst claiming expenses for them at full market rates. Don’t know the full story on this and I’m assuming it is ‘people’ from the wife’s side.
Of course, this may be complete bollox !
Trump is proving spectacularly ignorant, not stupid just lacking knowledge.
He genuinely does not seem to understand that this is a proxy war between the US/NATO and Russia. That he is not a mediator for peace but the main belligerent in terms of money and weapons supply but also in ‘running the war’ (out of a base in Germany according to Col. Doug MacGregor). It is laughable that he evidently perceives himself as ‘not involved’, ‘not his war’ and as a mediator. During his first term he escalated things dramatically in terms of militarizing Ukraine. He genuinely does not seem to understand any of this…
They guy seems increasing schizophrenic lurching between Dr Donald and Mr Trump. That business of ambushing the SA president with accusations of genocide in the oval office while a few weeks earlier he sat there with Netanyahu and said fuck all… it is incredible really.
Trump is also evidently one of those people who is most influenced by the last person he talks with. He oscillates so much because he has no knowledge of his own, on Russia, Russians, Putin, the middle east, economics, you name it other than real estates deals. He never reads books. One his whole life or something like that. Gets his world view from Fox News and the like. Look at the nutcases he has largely surrounded himself with YET AGAIN!
I would laugh but this is a dangerous man to have in charge. He is much weaker than I thought, very easily swayed it seems.
Trump is apparently a very nice guy in person and has ‘good instincts’ (i.e. he is not stupid) but he is just not equipped with the knowledge and skills to execute what he wants to achieve. It is tragic to witness (at least so far).
His ego is the real danger however.
I agree Mac, especially the part about his ego, that’s probably why he accepted the gift of that 747 from Qatar, he needed the extra plane to transport his ego.
As George Orwell said in ‘Notes on Nationalism’ “Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage – torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians – which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side”.
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/
Therefore….
South African President Ramaphosa was treated disgracefully in a meeting with that POS Trump in the Oval office tn front of the worlds press, he ran a video of a group of black Nationalists calling for the murder of white Africaans. To which Ramaphosa said “that is not South African government policy”. Just think of the hypocrisy here, The Israeli government has a policy of Ethnic cleansing and Genocide, this has been meticulously documented and, more importantly is put into practice on a daily basis. The Prime Minister, President and many Ministers order the extermination of 2 million Palestinians, all with the backing of Trump, who supplies the bombs and aircraft to achieve the Genocide in a timely fashion, so that the world is not offended enough to demand an immediate halt to the open murder of hundreds of thousands of men women and children. I assume the South African case at the ICJ had no small part to play in Trumps diabolical diatribe. The man is a psychopath and a man with no moral compass.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/leftist-plantation-south-african-officials-say-white-refugees-are-committing-treason
“lurching between Dr Donald and Mr Trump” and ‘Mr Bean’ I would say.
I think George Galloway is right to ask the obvious questions about the three Ukeranians [sic] I do however think it is a stretch with the straight laced Qweir Starmer. I hope I am wrong. I am reminded of that staff Sergeant in the film ‘the Hill’ . In this case Starmer could be regaled by his wife thus.. What’s this you cad, can’t make your mind up whether you are a boy or a girl? EYES FRONT. Then gives him the Macron treatment.
https://x.com/zeeman_rob/status/1926956109434175919
Maybe it is all another piece of theatre that’s why they had to use actors? Just saying.
I understand that Jeremy is intending to introduce a Bill before Parliament requiring that Arrest Warrants be issued against leading UK politicians for enabling genocide. He is a very brave and moral human being. Every morning he speaks with his Palestinian friend in Gaza to be told the numbers and the personal stories of the victims of Israeli atrocities over the previous 24 hours.
Peter Beaumont in Kyiv and Pjotr Sauer (the Guardian) published a fairly long article on the wave of missile strikes on Ukraine and Trumps hysterical response to them, Trump said “he [Putin] had “gone absolutely CRAZY” not one word of this being a retaliation for the almost equal number of drowns raining down on Russian airports, closing many. Putin was nearly assassinated when his helicopter was caught in a storm of drowns on his visit to Kursk. The fact that this was not reported in this article is itself proof positive that the western media is not fit for purpose. The western media have from the get go failed to tell the truth on this conflict. In many cases this is no big deal. In this case Russia and the tactics used against it, with the acquiescence of the west will have dire consequences.
Harry Law
May 27, 2025 at 14:42
Harry, what do you expect the “dire consequences” to be and when do you expect them to transpire?
Let me Guess. The UK/US use satellite tracking to target Russian targets airfields etc, they also use long range missiles supplied by US/UK such as storm shadow, they are in effect co belligerents. Did you know Russia has over 6,000 nuclear weapons or are you saying, they are only bluffing? Your question is ridiculous.
So far the RF has limited its attacks on NATO materiel to what is transported into Ukraine. In the event of Russian cities being targetted by NATO missiles the first option has already been outlined: the RF will attack NATO bases inside Europe which supply the missiles.
This probably explains NATO’s enthusiasm for building munition factories within what remains of Ukraine. It avoids the tricky problem of admitting to their citizenry that they are now at war with Russia.
Harry Law
May 27, 2025 at 17:10
Harry, you mean that Russia might use nukes to retaliate against the USA for its support for Ukraine?
That would be suicide for Russia.
Or perhaps Russia might use nukes to retaliate against Britain or France for its support for Ukraine?
That would be suicide for Russia as both countries have nukes.
Perhaps nuke Poland or Germany? At the very least a general conventional attack by the Zapad on Russia would follow, resulting in the the destruction of Russian forces in Ukraine at the very least.
No, Putin’s nuclear threats are empty.
by the same reasoning Iran and N Korea are cobelligerents with Russia.
In the very unlikely event that Russian conventional weaponry was being defeated by a combination of EU and US forces, and Russian positions were about to be over run putting the survival of the Russian Federation at risk, then yes tactical nuclear weapons might be used. Not on NATO countries, but against those forces in and assisting Ukraine. The US would do the same when faced with an existential threat. As things stand the US can see the writing on the wall and are leaving the Ukrainian tragedy for the Europeans to clean up. In this case the US are no fools. The EU are borrowing 1000 billion euros to build up its defences to confront Russia since they do not have the finances nor the military means to confront Russia now or in the near future. This arms build up will impoverish Europe and will only occur if all social services, pensions and NHS are gutted. It may enrich some UK arms manufacturers however most weapons, aircraft etc are bought from US suppliers since the US insisted on interoperability for all NATO standards, clever bastards.
The Ukraine war has been lost, get over it and encourage the Ukies to negotiate the best deal possible. Trump was correct when he sad this war [Biden’s war] should never have been started.
Harry Law
May 27, 2025 at 19:30
Harry, at least we can agree on “Trump was correct when he sad this war [Biden’s war] should never have been started.”
Though to call it Biden’s war is absurd.
Putin’s war is an even greater abomination than Netanyahu’s war. And that is saying something.
Netanyahu has devised the deaths of tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Palestinians while incurring negligible Israeli losses. In Zionist terms, a win.
On the other hand, Russian casualties alone are in the 100’s of thousands, nevermind the “Ukies” whose deaths do not concern Putin.
But he has betrayed his oath of office:
“I swear in exercising the powers of the President of the Russian Federation to respect and protect the rights and freedoms of man and citizen, to respect and defend the Constitution of the Russian Federation, to protect the sovereignty and independence, security and integrity of the state, to faithfully serve the people.”
by recklessly consuming the lives of hundreds of thousands of young Russians.
And for what?
“Harry, you mean that Russia might use nukes to retaliate against the USA for its support for Ukraine?”
Far more likely would be for them to take out the satellites that the UK and US use against them. Why should Russia use nukes when it possesses non-nuclear missiles of comparable range and power? It would be naive to expect that Russia does not have the coordinates of every military installation in the UK, some of which are conveniently far from centres of human population.
The Brzezinski Doctrine (Carters Nat Security advisor) saw the key to US hegemony in subjugating Russia through Ukraine and although Brzezinski is dead, his work is very much alive; the Biden administration followed Brzezinski’s geostrategic blueprint, which supports Ukraine militarily, logistically, diplomatically, and politically.
Mackinder the founding father of geopolitics, considered Eastern Europe to be the key to control Russia and Brzezinski, along with others, agreed. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) expansion rolled American power eastwards and Ukraine has become the center of the struggle. If the US takes Ukraine, Russia is imperiled so this is where confrontation is most intense, and where war has broken out (Beal 2022). However, US strategy not merely seeks to destroy Russian power, and utilize Europe in doing so, it also needs to control and disempower Europe, deindustrializing it so it loses economic autonomy and becomes an appendage of the American economy (Horstmann 2022). This being, so far, a proxy war, the US has employed two weapons; military assistance to Kyiv and sanctions. Richard Haass, for one, has argued that the key to regime change in Russia, removing Putin in favor of a more compliant government, is “draconian sanctions on all Russian energy exports—above all, a ban on natural gas exports to Europe” (Haass 2022). Indeed, the main instrument of sanctions has been Europe and, although there has been pressure, European governments and institutions such as the EU (European Union) have freely, and often enthusiastically imposed them. The only EU leader to challenge the Washington/Brussels diktat has been Hungary’s Viktor Orban, who is much pilloried in the Atlanticist media (Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty 2022). The results have been disastrous for Europe which has suffered more than Russia. Despite the propaganda, the energy crisis and the increasingly calamitous erosion of the European economy has not been the result of Russian actions (Swiss Policy Research 2022). Russia has continued to supply gas, even via Ukraine, in order to retain its reputation as a dependable business partner (TASS [Information Telegraphic Agency of Russia] 2022).
file:///C:/Users/hp/Downloads/WeaponizingEuropeCounteringEurasiaMackinderBrzezinskiNulandandtheRoadtotheUkraineWar-1.pdfBiden when in Poland said Putin could not stay in power.
Also it must also be said that Lord Ismay who was the first NATO Gen Sec said the purpose of NATO was to keep Germany down, Russia out and the US in.
“Putin’s war is an even greater abomination than Netanyahu’s war. And that is saying something.”
So do you think the first and second world wars were abominations, too, on the part of the then British government? Both were wars that Britain could have easily kept out of, but didn’t.
“by recklessly consuming the lives of hundreds of thousands of young Russians.”
Once again, only reckless from where you stand. I suppose you still think that the Russian army is 100% conscripts.
Johnny Boy.
“Many who define themselves as being on the political ‘Left’ are vocal supporters of both Palestine and Ukraine in their respective wars against Israel and Russia.
They frame both conflicts as freedom-loving peoples struggling against expansionist Imperial powers led by dictatorial strongmen in the form of Putin in Russia and Netanyahu in Israel.
What these people fail to appreciate is that Israel and Ukraine are deeply and inextricably linked with each other. Ukraine is the source of the Zionist beliefs that drive Israeli imperialism. In many ways, they are a united ideological, political, theological, and militaristic force, with connections of blood and ambition going back centuries.
This means that large swathes of Western populations, through their support for both Ukraine and Palestine, are, without realising it, both supporting and opposing the same side, at the same time.”
https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/ukraine-and-israel-a-united-force
Stevie Boy
May 27, 2025 at 23:27
Stevie.
“What these people fail to appreciate is that Israel and Ukraine are deeply and inextricably linked with each other. Ukraine is the source of the Zionist beliefs that drive Israeli imperialism.”
Get a grip Stevie.
Somewhere a shark is in danger of being jumped over.
Zionist Banderites are on the march.
FFS.
“ recklessly consuming the lives of hundreds of thousands of young Russians.”
” Once again, only reckless from where you stand. ”
Are you suggesting that these young men are dying for a just cause?
” Ukraine is the source of the Zionist beliefs that drive Israeli imperialism. ”
Oh dear. That is desperate. You can see what they’re trying to do but it is really pathetic.
“Are you suggesting that these young men are dying for a just cause?”
I think you need to buy yourself a dictionary and look up the word “reckless”.
“No, Putin’s nuclear threats are empty.”
JK Retread,
You state that with such great confidence yet why did I immediately think of General John Sedgwick when I read it?
Are you talking about the same Vladimir Putin that you routinely describe as a ruthless, bloodthirsty megalomaniac of Hitlerian wickedness? Surely a monster Like Vladimir Vladimirovich wouldn’t bat an eyelid over such a trivial matter?
Anyway, why not ask him? Ater all, he’s living rent-free inside your head.
Hyperbole aside though, the thing is that neither you nor I nor anybody else in this world except Putin himself knows whether his “nuclear threats” (when did he make them by the way? I don’t recall any) are empty or not.
So I don’t know about you, but when the time comes for me to shuffle off this mortal coil, I’d rather die in my bed than end up as an integral part of a smouldering mound of radioactive obsidian off the coast of North-West Europe formerly known as Uncle Sam’s unsinkable aircraft carrier. And “John Bull’s Other Island”, which I believe is your home, would not exactly emerge as a paradise on Earth from any nuclear exchange. In fact, ending up as an integral part of a smouldering mound of radioactive obsidian would probably be preferable to surviving. Best not to put your theory to the test, eh?
Some good news – for a change.
“Incredible news. Judges have ruled the dawn raid on @AsaWinstanley by counter-terror cops in which all his digital devices were seized last October as part of a wider “operation” was completely illegal and they have to hand all his property back.”
https://nitter.poast.org/KitKlarenberg/status/1927398075502297416#m
Unfortunately, doesn’t change the fact that they did it, they’ll get away with it and they’ll do it again. Plus they have very likely copied all his data onto their ‘terror’ databases.
If their actions were illegal then let’s see some real prosecutions.
That is very good news. I hope that Asa Winstanley’s photojournalism of the events following 7th October will become more widely known. The charcoal statues of festival goers sitting in the steel skeletons of their burnt out cars left an indelible impression. The use of plasma flame throwing tanks and helicopter gunships against Israeli citizens, days after the hostages had been snatched and taken back to relative safety in Gaza, was an escalation by the IDF that might not have been anticipated.
The armed police who broke into Asa’s London flat and broke up all his computer hardware before arresting him, wore no marks of identification, so now we know they are deemed to have been British anti terrorist officers, and not agents of a foreign state.
“so now we know they are deemed to have been British anti terrorist officers, and not agents of a foreign state.”
These days, is there a meaningful difference between the two?
Here’s an intriguing article on Britain’s role in Syria, rise of Jolani and a security cut-out NGO called Inter-Mediate. Worth a, long, read.
https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/the-blair-bush-project-in-syria-that-brought-al-qaeda-to-power
I’ve never seen Alistair Crooke get angry but he is visibly pissed off with Trump’s ignorance in this interview with Judge Nap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeeE1qavSg0
But more importantly they show a clip of a reporter asking Trump about the attempted drone attack on Putin’s helicopter and Trump did not know about it! Hadn’t a clue. (Did not know about the mass drone attacks either leading up to it.)
This was after he had called Putin totally insane. Trump had no clue why the Russians ramped it up in response. Trump clearly was not told. Me, a nobody on the internet, knew about it days ago (as did the reporter obviously) yet Trump still did not know when asked.
Crooke makes the point that Trump is clearly being kept in an information bubble because they realize that is how to control him. Without good information he is screwed as he personally is very ignorant of world affairs and history.
The US is so dysfunctional at this point it is mind blowing. And I don’t see a way out of the downward spiral. It is like a runaway train.
Absolutely extraordinary that Trump never knew about the assassination attempt. Another very bad sign. He is like a blind man fumbling about. This is grim.
Mac
May 28, 2025 at 08:26
Mac, other than the Russian military source quoted by Tass:
” Putin’s helicopter was “at the epicenter” of a “large-scale” Ukrainian drone attack on May 20, Yury Dashkin, commander of a Russian air defense division, said, according to Kremlin newswire Tass.”,
are there any other sources for this alleged attempted assassination of Putin?
Hmmm…. Other than the commander of the Russian Air Defence system who exactly are you expecting would be able to ‘confirm’ the attempted attack happened?
Are you thinking maybe an ‘independent western journalist’ (oxymoron overload right there) was out over the Kursk region for his daily hot air balloon trip and just happened to witness the whole thing?
To address what you are really implying. Do I think the Russians are lying in this instance. No I do not. In fact I find them a lot more sincere in what they say than you to take just just one example.