The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Thanks again Bluebird(9.08)
With respect Straw that is a silly & bizarre question…… Of course I’d prefer them all to be alive !
The thought of those children not having their parents anymore is heartbreaking enough.
However, as we do not have all the information I still prefer to believe there is a genuine reason for the authorities decision not to hand them over to the family.
SS have made some very bad moves in recent years I just hope this is not one, they also know the people in this case……..we do not.
BTW, Straw, I disagree ‘two governments are complicit in murder’.
I don’t think for one minute they thought this was going to happen, I’ve seen nothing to make me think AH was an enemy of the state.
On that I’ve been consistent throughout.
BB 21/11/12 12.17 AM
I founf a le dauphine pdf with a picture of roger mollier. This is a nationalist celebration for 3 ugine people who served in the first french army 1944/45.
He is there being honoured by the community together with a Mr Brun who is as old as him. I shall post the pdf tomorrow.
Also I have found roger mollier signing an anti gay marriage petition.
He looks like to be a french nationalist. There are so many molliers politically active on the right wing side in that french departement.
————–
But didnt find the posted pdf and went to 24/11
Straw
The extraction theory looks to complicated. There are too many leaks possible and the way they did it required too much organisation and was too dangerous for being uncovert.
An airplane crash during a private alps tour or the family rowing in the dawn and suddenly drowning during bad weather or simply a car accident like Brun’s would have been much easier. If there were a car accident, the local media would have taken notice only on page 6 for a period of max 3 days.
For an extraction this thing was too complicated organised.
++++
So he was out for 30 minutes 5 times a day? That would mean that he was driving 10 km maximum. We wpuld have to search the whereabouts within a circle of 10 km.
Could it be that he was in an internet cafe for being anonymous when chatting or skyping? I would suggest that as being logic. Where are the next internet cages close to the camping site? Did they move simply because there was no anonymously run internet cafe close to the first camping site?
It isnt logic to meet somebody 5 times a day. It isnt logic to go shopping 5 times a day. However, i need the internet 5 times a day for anonymous communication. His phone and laptop could not connect anonymously to the internet.
Katie
I wasnt suggesting you would prefer them dead, its just that you are looking for dead bodies and that would put the matter to rest(but not the identity of the perpetrators) I would prefer to be looking at people as they pass me to see if its SAH.
I used to do the same thing playing golf, I hit the ball into a copse of trees where do I spend my time looking? In the gaps between the trees so that I have a next shot. I used to find my ball more often than not.
When I first thought extraction was a possibility I thought that in a few days it would be ruled out with something discovered. We cant say that and though it may not be any more likely than murders its possibility certainly hasnt been diminished by 100 or so police officers investigating, which you would expect to happen.
No internet cafes in St Jorioz google says in Annecy 14 mins each way by car.
Does that rule that out?
BB this is where a satellite phone wins, of course agents would be using them too:
“Senior officials from security agencies, including BSF and CRPF, are learnt to have mentioned this as a key factor when asked as to why it has become so difficult to trace the terrorists’ gameplan despite the fact that the agencies have their own dedicated intelligence wing.
Security agencies subsequently told the senior ministry officials that almost all the major outfits, including Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad, have started using satellite phones in a big way.”
“Though it can also be intercepted, you need very sophisticated equipment to do so.” The security agencies involved in monitoring terrorist activities do not right now have such equipment.
Security agencies believed that the use of satellite phones has substantially upgraded the terrorists’ communication network in the country.
They said the Thuraya had become a mainstay of the militants’ communication network as it is the only mobile satellite service in the global market capable of providing voice, messaging, SMSes and e-mail from a mobile.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1513093/posts
But Straw, you need to explain logically, why, if your theory is right, were the girls sent to England & are not with their parents ?
@ straw44berry 3 Dec, 2012 – 8:04 am
“NR (12.00 am) When the hunter SM was posted on here I said maybe this is him. Mochyn (not sure may have been someone else sorry if I am mistaken) then said maybe not because of the distance to the north.”
Don’t misunderstand, I am not complaining about any of us making mistakes on CM or MZT. I think I was the one who said when the DM used the “wrong” pic of SM, they would not make a mistake, because of copyright and libel laws. But I checked back to what we had said here and also checked the “hunters” page again and found the DM was wrong, so told them to double check, and they pulled the page quickly.
The point is the MSM is under such pressure for speed, plus budget problems, and have a few reporters working many stories, they make mistakes now they would not have before the Internet. At one time they always insisted on two sources to verify a story. Now, especially with the Middle East, they say “We can not verify the authenticity of this photo or video” that one side or the other has supplied to them, but they use it anyway.
In the US, ABC TV news, in the Colorado theater shootings, found someone of the same name on FaceBook and announced wrongly he was the killer. It fit their agenda ’cause he was a member of the Tea Party. They’d done something similar previously on a big story. I mentioned how CNN used video from a previous Gaza war to represent the recent one ’cause the scene agreed with their political bias.
James rabbiting on about beacons & mgz last night obviously had no idea about these phones.
“Satellite Phones Are The Perfect Solution To Connect With World
By: satellitephonerentals | – Today, with the advent of global connectivity, every corner on earth is accessible. No matter you are on the top of Mt. Everest or in the vast icy landscape of Antarctica, global technology makes civilization just a phone call away.
Read more: http://www.articlesnatch.com/topic/satellite+phones#.ULx8PRzTd4J#ixzz2Dz04OliY
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution No Derivatives
Security and Sat Phones in Syria
“By now, nearly everyone has heard of Marie Colvin’s death while covering the Syrian uprising. Speculation, which will probably never be proven one way or the other, has it that the reporter and her crew were targeted by the government through use of their satellite phone (sat phone) which they used to communicate their stories out of the country.
When the story broke, my boss contacted me to do research on sat phones, specifically in respect to their use in the past to target journalists or others and security.
Apparently many journalists use the phones presuming that since they aren’t using a country’s infrastructure they are untraceable, but that isn’t the case.
My research uncovered that not only are sat phones traceable with the right equipment, but they have also been used in the past by Russia and other countries to track their political opponents and others.
Hopefully the word gets out on the insecurity sat phones present to journalists and situation’s like that of Marie Colvin will be isolated.”
http://intern.blogs.american.edu/2012/03/30/security-and-sat-phones-in-syria/
…………and guess who owns a share in such technology ?
Awarded one of the biggest contracts in Iraq:
“Cell phone service for central Iraq, including Baghdad, was awarded to a consortium headed by Orascom Telecom, a huge company based in Egypt.
An Auchi spokesman tells NBC News the billionaire’s company owns 6.5 million shares in Orascom, which amounts to about 6 percent of the company.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3476025/ns/nbcnightlynews/t/iraqi-contract-may-benefit-controversial-businessman/
Katie
This was not about saad’s whereabouts even his friends knew that he was in annecy. No secret there. This was about anonymous chatting and skyping. you cannot do that with a sat phone at all. TOR and VPN isnt possible with SAT phones. They can trcae and track all your communication when you are using your SAT phone. Saad knew that.
He had to find an internet cafe providing TOR. There are not all internet cafes providing the possibility to use Tor/vpn.
I think we have to search for an internet cafe close to the second camping site run by an Arab name.
Katie
I havent answered about Mollier……..
Lots of thoughts but none fitting into place as yet.
My latest:-
If there was a meet and he had seen Saad before they couldnt expect to be able to get away replacing him in the meet. However if this was their first rendezvous it is possible they thought they could make the exchange and leave happily. Something goes wrong, SM doesnt believe the agent or wants more money or they never wanted SM to leave alive.
The rest of the story about family is pure fairytale. Why complicate it.
The 2 builders and BM create the family going to the car park scenario.
@ Katie 3 Dec, 2012 – 9:03 am
“I don’t believe the extraction theory because it would be such an elaborate,expensive, nightmare of a plan involving hundreds .
It simply impossible to get so many ‘reliable’ ducks in a row……….and keep them there & all for what ?”
I don’t think it was supposed to be an extraction via murder, but maybe an extraction gone horribly wrong – the SAHs to swap with PD and his two women. The SAH’s minus the girls, take off in PD’s car for ?? and the PD group plus two girls pick up caravan and return to England. Maybe they could not take girls along because of danger crossing borders, and they’d move them later. It’s a pretty extreme theory.
In the Chevaline case they’d have a hard time keeping so many people quiet, but look at the whole Jimmy Savile biz in England. They kept thousands of people quiet for forty some years, bits of bribery, blackmail, some murders, the police and SIS complicit along with the press.
They continue to do so. A few more dead persons named as Fiends & Monsters. One or two still living thrown to the wolves or under the bus. The BBC says its inquiry will be secret. A wrongly named Lord (maybe intentionally wrongly named) threatens to sue everyone and stops discussion. It seems the same things will continue another forty years.
Katie,
Perhaps the next time the family ask to see the girls they are told they cant, because it’s too heartbreaking for the girls unaware that Zainab and Zeena have already rejoined Saad and Iqbal in ………?
If these are my rants when I dont sleep much maybe I need to sleep more.
BB, sorry no can’t agree there, what you are saying is that there’s also an internet cafe owner & other users in that cafe, in on this scam & staying quiet ?
Satellite calls can only be traced with very sophisticated equipment & someone who knows how to use it, as M Maillaud is a two bit trainee lawyer in a small village in France he won’t have that, if AH was an agent then the Mi6 boys will have told the Gendarme dept, [ or whoever, who MAY have the equipment ] to say nothing.
Straw, no that won’t work either, the family are already very vocal in speaking to the press, they would create a fuss & start legal proceedings, they would have to be told the truth.
Oddly I believe this family are the only people who would stay quiet even though it would mean they had been set up & made conspirators in this ‘theoretical’ covert plot.
OK for those of us who do not believe in the extraction theory, would someone please explain why…..why would anyone want to set up this hugely elaborate plot & what is to be gained from it ?
“The Israeli ambassador to the UK Daniel Taub has been officially summoned to the Foreign Office, following Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s decision to expand West Bank settlement building, in the wake of the Palestinian Authority’s successful bid for statehood at the United Nations.
A Foreign Office spokesperson said in a statement: “We deplore the recent Israeli government decision to build 3,000 new housing units and unfreeze development in the E1 block.
“This threatens the viability of the two state solution.
“We have called on the Israeli government to reverse this decision.
“The Israeli Ambassador to London, Daniel Taub, has been formally summoned to the Foreign Office this morning by the Minister for the Middle East, Alistair Burt.
“The Minister set out the depth of the UK’s concerns.
“Any decision about any other measures the UK might take will depend on the outcome of our discussions with the Israeli government and with international partners including the US and European Union.”
Taub, who became ambassador for Israel last year, is originally British, and grew up in north west London before emigrating to Israel.” Huffpost.
More smoke signals of displeasure following Chevaline?
straw
Here is the PDF with the picture of Mr.Roger Mollier and his WW2 military friend Mr.Brun being honoured in Ugine. The picture is on page 14, left side. I thought that it was a funny coincidence that Mr.Brun Sr. and Mr.Mollier Sr. are being honoured next to each other in a Fremch nationalist ceremony in Ugine. Or else where those two families perhaps friends?
http://www.ledauphine.com/fr/images/getnc.aspx?iMedia=62585797
Pink
3 Dec, 2012 – 2:13 am Well spotted Pink. Even I am gobsmacked at that one.
“BM 411 PD” How WIERD is that? “(Brett Martin) (Time he met) (Phillipe Dididierjean)” I must be taking LSD.
Katie
Inmarsat is the company that provides internet satellite connections.
http://www.kvh.com/Pages/Inmarsat-Airtime/Inmarsat-Airtime-Activations.aspx
Of course, surfing with a SAT telephone isn’t anonymous since they know my IP. I can’t even use TOR with a SAT phone. Of course, Saad – in case that he had a SAT phone – knew that he was supervised by somebody and he knew that it would have been drop dead stupid to use his own phone for any kind of secret communication.
Either he went to a public landline phone hut nearby, or else he was using an internet cafe, for chatting and/or skyping. Using internet cafes is anonymous, at least while surfing, since nobody knows that IP of the internet cafe in advance, particularly NOT, when the internet cafe allows me to use TOR/VPN.
However, using one of my own phones for a secret internet connection would be the worst thing what I could do.
Pink
3 Dec, 2012 – 5:16 am It appears someone at the Times has picked up on me flogging the timing issue to death (much to the annoyance of Katie). So perhaps our efforts are not wasted and the message is getting through to a wider audience, even if we get no acknowledgement?
Katie
Satellite phones are the worst to use when you like to stay anononymous on the www.
http://www.fastcoexist.com/1679429/how-the-syrian-government-hunts-journalists-covering-its-atrocities
http://cpj.org/security/2012/02/caveat-utilitor-satellite-phones-can-always-be-tra.php
But perhaps he used his Inmarsat telephone and he did obey to the rules for using satellite phones in a more safe way and therefore he changed positions quite often:
-Avoid using a satellite phone (or any radio frequency based device) from the same position more than once.
-Avoid using a satellite phone or similar device from a location that cannot be easily evacuated in case of attack.
-Keep the maximum length of any transmission to 10 minutes at most, then cease transmitting and change location as soon as possible.
+++++
Whatever he had done outside 5 times a day. Whether visiting an internet cafe or else changing positions from “phone call/internet” access to the next “phone call/internet connection”, it was – my opinion(!) – simply for creating electronic, secure and secret connectivity with somebody else.
We shall have to agree to disagree BB, if terrorists are using them I believe it must be difficult to trace.
Imaarset are only one of half a dozen names, Thuraya seems to be the favoured one for illegal use or greater anonymity.
Plus, we are talking about a man who knows the satellite systems well.
Skype calls ARE now traceable too, so why go to an internet cafe when he ‘could’ do everything on a satellite phone should he want to ?
http://www.ledauphine.com/fr/images/getnc.aspx?iMedia=62585797
Re: „Armee Rhine et Danube“ – regarding that Roger Mollier and Brun Sr. picture posted above in the PDF!
From Wikipedia:
At the end of the war, the motto of the French First Army was Rhin et Danube, referring to the two great German rivers that it had reached and crossed during its combat operations.
The First Army was mainly composed of North African units (Maghrebis and French Pied-noirs soldiers = French living in North Africa before independence) from the Army of Africa which already played a major role in the liberation of Corsica (September – October 1943) and the Italian Campaign (1943–44) in which around 130,000 of their force’s men engaged.
So then, were the Molliers and the Bruns originally coming from North Africa? Only their families could ever answer that question.
katie
he will use an internet cafe simply because he can use an unknown IP address there. Both when posting into chatrooms as well as when using skype. create a new skype account and go on. Takes 1 minute.
Netx time I use a different internet cafe or else I use an internet cafe that allows me to use TOR.
With a SAT phone he has his static IP address and all his conversation is easily traceable. Or else – that’s what I said, too – he used perhaps a SAT phone but he did respect the 3 main issues for using it in a safe way: Never use it longer than 10 minutes, use it just once from the same location (they moved camping sites and he moved outside to phone?), use it from a location where you can easily evacuate yourself.
If WBM has subtly changed his story about SM “over-taking him” on the climb (I have already highlighted the way it had slipped from during the climb to the beginning of it) it now appears he may have dropped the claim that he overtook at all. The question that has to be asked: “Why lie about this point, if lie he did?” The next question: “If his testimony is unreliable about Mollier, how reliable is any of it including the green 4×4?” And even more fundamentally, how sure are we that he was even on a bike? We only have his word that he set off at 2.30. There are no independent witnesses as far as we know to his journey. The only corroboration appears to come from PD, not altogether a reliable figure either. No police have confirmed WBM’s bike and it is not clear, as one would have expected, it was taken by the police for forensic examination. Nor do we know how he got home after the police arrived. Did he cycle or was his bike seized? Is it possible he arrived at the scene by some other means? If the Laurent Fillon report is accurate there was no room in the BMW. How about the green 4×4 or even as a co’passenger in the mysterious speeding Peugeot 306? Apologies if this all appears far-fetched but when a witness lies about something important (if he has) it is reasonable to question everything isn’t it?
@ NR
3 Dec, 2012 – 2:43 am May I ask “What is MZT and where might one find it?”