The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Tim V 9.52 pm
Well now we know that Philippe D was made up why not Brett Martin, it worked before why not again.
Could any of the 20 Military types come on from here:-
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gAtn2_coXLoa31PlNXyRcmomr1Ww?docId=CNG.4304ab3afdb57381cf2ef4524ff21151.2c1
@ James
3 Dec, 2012 – 10:57 pm Perhaps the “new route” was on the WAY to Combe d’Ire? In any event (as I suggested before) I can’t see him riding his 5000 euro bike over the rough so I am assuming this is strong evidence that he intended to go no further than Martinet and a rendez vous. Next question: did he let his partner in on the purpose and destination? She certainly went there looking for him, but was that because she knew he was there or because she heard something on the news? Do we know what time she arrived and was sent off for a photograph? Do we know the time of the first local news broadcast?
Tim v
What coincidence with the plate of the hearse car do you mean. Sorry, perhaps i am not seeing what you meant. Pls explain.
NR
Thanks. Interesting. What did he work as his job in the UK?
However, we have to be careful. This is a very commin name. I found such a guy with the same name in Nigeria who was arrested because of a terror attack with a truck. But i didnt take notice because it just did not fit very well and i was sure that this was just another guy with the same name.
MZT is a problem for me. It crashes my browser. Perhaps because there are too many messages on one page. I simply cant open it.
re demazes @ Olifant
4 Dec, 2012 – 12:24 am I agree. He obviously goes for conflict inc the blood and gore. 51 or 2 I believe. you get the impression he’s a man with a social conscience and not likely or reliable as a government stooge. If he was the PD that met WBM on the road presumably he would at least have had the first Chevaline photos credited to him for Getty so I think unlikely.
@ James
James
3 Dec, 2012 – 11:29 pm
What does a four year old in a car for 8 hours ?
Move ? Have a wee ? Cry ? Fall asleep ?????
That is good point.prob all three…Anyone ever sit for a lonnnng time and their leg or foot fell asleep?..they say froze implying no detectable movement but even on a child I would think such a position 8 hours..without movement would cause serious circulation problem somewhere. I read one article say the child lunged when the doors opened ..later another reached out and cried wheres my mum? having come from underneath Granmas legs.
ever have a nice leg in bed just stay there on you..after a while it starts getting heavier..and heavier..:)
.
Do we have a photo of that car where we can see the windows on the drivers’ side?
Sys, james
The story with zeena not been seen for 8 hours is BS. They had to check somehow whether or not the two women were dead. Nowhere in the world a policeman would look through a window from outside telling that they were dead and that we need no doctor. Only a MD can confirm whether or not they are dead. Therefore they had to open the doors and get inside to check if they were dead. At least now (probably 5 minutes after the ambulance arrived) the doctor was inside the car and he must have seen or heard the girl because a dead body does not breath and a car is a small area where a MD will hear breathing.
@ Mochyn69
4 Dec, 2012 – 3:36 am I tend to think that the builder’s evidence IS reliable. He looks like an independent type to me but more important are the factors that make it more so
1 there were two of them
2 they had to move stuff to let it go by
3 they were working for British owners and noticed the British registration
4 the evidence is detailed as to driver and little girl in the front seat
5 they had just had lunch
6 saying 2.30 – 3.0 pm though somewhat vague leans towards voracity (primed liars are more precise)
7 this is a remote route with few passing vehicles so you tend to notice and remember
8 saying no vehicles were following is less reliable as first it is a negative and we are unclear for how long after it relates although if a killer car did follow it had to be in the next 30 mins min. and unless they went past before 3.15 (unlikely) HAD to pass Martin and probably Mollier.
@ Lizzie007
4 Dec, 2012 – 8:17 am glad you have been following our conversation about the first call. I made a thing of it from the beginning because it was the only PROOF of an official lie’ If officials lie in a murder enquiry “something stinks”. I also go along with the rest of your contribution which I suggested myself many weeks back although I didn’t have access to the verbatim conversation unlike you. Were you listening in? LOL However I find your last comment rather intriguing. “I can only hope this is a case where SAH was truly a bad guy…” Good, bad or indifferent is assassination by states ever excusible? I have little doubt he was a British asset. Was he anyone elses? To work for Britain he would probably have to pretend to work for the other side to be useful. Where did his true sympathies lie? Such is the convoluted world of espionage.
@ Lizzie007 I hope you are truly a good guy and I can call on your protection should I ever need it? lol
It would frustrate Sherlock Holmes. At least he had Dr Watson for common sense and Mycroft as a sort of supercomputer. The criag murray discussion process ia a kind of roundabout which drops off the same errors at intervals. Un peu avant 16.00 morphs into 4.01 in mangled traslation, then into 4.10 when the UK press is careless about digit order. Sylvain and MoMo are muddled and remuddled. Brett Martin said a vehicle went up the hill past him or down the hill past him or both. There was a baseball hat on the dashboard and later it was a cycle helmet.
Holmes would dive into his mess of random papers and artefacts to retrieve precisely the specific document or item he was looking for. “It is my business to know what other people don’t know.” Holmes would have known which facts were sufficiently proved to build a theory on.
But Clouseau, the bumbling inspector of the Sûreté, had a tremendous ego. Whenever someone said, “Phone call for Inspector Clouseau”, Clouseau would reply, “Ah yes, that would be for ME.” His investigations were marked with chaos and destruction – largely caused by Clouseau himself.
MZT has been given some inside info by a contact. She is unwilling to divulge exactly what (see her forum for details – about 10:30 today)
“… very complicated case as a lot of illegal things have been going on (and still are) in that border area. …
… suspected background of some of the people. …”
The immediate thing that springs to my mind is organised crime and drug or possibly people trafficking and indeed a very quick search turns up a March 2012 report of:
a “Nigerian cocaine ring bust” {http://genevalunch.com/blog/2012/10/03/drug-pair-caught-in-geneva-by-cross-border-crime-team/}
“… 12 men were arrested in March for their roles in a cocaine ring that worked out of the asylum centre in Visp.
One has been sent back to Nigeria.
The others, mainly from Nigeria but also from Niger, Erithrea, Gambia and Somalia, remain in prison …”
I find that interesting when coupled with the Nigerian guy who was charged recently with fraud involving SAH’s bank (or was it credit card? or both?).
Presumably SM and/or SAH is/are suspected of being mixed up with these people in some fashion.
Up to now I have always thought this was the work of a state agency but I find this hint from MZT very convincing.
James
4 Dec, 2012 – 10:26 am WBM wants us to believe the car was revving madly. Just because he is not wholly reliable doesn’t mean this necessarily untrue. If SAH made a mad dash under gunfire across the bonnet (supported by Zainab being outside, Mollier blood splashes on her and him from first shots, acute angle bullet wound in his back (denied by Maillaud), lined up ping marks on windscreen and leading edge of door that would line up with SAH trying to get back into driver’s seat, at least two bullet holes in driver’s door, bigger hole where WBM claims to have reached in) to get back in the car, it all works. Now as to revving engine/spinning wheels (supported by mud splash, hot rubber marks and hollow floor) it can be explained by leg spasm following the head injury pushing accelerator to the floor.
A bit further north in Haut-Rhin:
{http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/16/250-french-police-net-3-members-drug-trafficking-illegal-immigration-ring-in/}
October 2012
“Hundreds of police officers moved in early Tuesday morning to net dozens of members of a criminal gang in eastern France who were importing drugs and operating an illegal immigration ring.”
@James – perhaps the roofbox contained drugs?
Straw44berry
4 Dec, 2012 – 3:40 pm thanks straw . i shall certainly go read times article but i doubt i can take on another site like you suggest. maybe cause its bcause i m a slow reader but this one al;ready seems to take up all my time and i m always catching up from yesterday. but hey it keeps me off the streets (not to mention keepin up my multiplication addition and extraction) so wot the hell?
Straw44berry
4 Dec, 2012 – 3:40 pm I used yur link but still couldn’t find the Times article. Do u have a more direct link?
Katie
4 Dec, 2012 – 5:33 pm you never cease to amaze me. You say “You may think my suggestion of SAAD making a call ‘implausible’ I beg to differ, it is perfectly rational for a satellite engineer to have a satellite phone & perfectly plausible that his wife knew how to use it !” This after several times denying you had suggested it!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yur craaaaaaaaazy.
Now explain this: If whilst dodging bullets in the 30 seconds or so of shooting whilst engaging rear gear and reversing he managed to send a message on a sat phone device inside the locked car – WHAT HAPPENED TO IT? Oh I know WBM took it off him when he put his arm inside?
Bluebird
4 Dec, 2012 – 5:48 pm sometime on the back of the firm phographic evidence of the tyre tracks that tell a clear story I suggested that the 4×4 did an accelerated standing start in semi circle that ends at blood stains it is quite possible they struck little Zainab with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdjN7dIXRXo&feature=fvsr
There are generally three distinct phases during a vehicle-pedestrian collision (Figure 1). The first phase is the initial impact, during which the pedestrian wraps around the front end of the vehicle and/or is carried by the vehicle. The second phase is the trajectory, during which the pedestrian separates from the vehicle and is projected forward of the vehicle. The third phase is the ground contact, which involves a combination of rolling, tumbling and/or sliding on the ground until the pedestrian comes to rest. The distance from the point of initial impact to the final rest position of the pedestrian is defined as the total pedestrian throw distance. Not surprisingly, throw distances generally increase with increasing impact speed.
When the front bumper of a vehicle first contacts with the lower extremities of a pedestrian, the legs are rapidly accelerated up to the speed of the vehicle while the head and torso of the pedestrian remain relatively still (Figure 2A). As the vehicle continues to move forward, the lower extremities begin to wrap around the contour of the front end of the vehicle (Figure 2B). The pelvis and torso of the pedestrian then begin to rotate and wrap around the front end and hood of the vehicle (Figure 2C) until the head strikes the vehicle (Figure 2D). Typically, head strike occurs on the hood or windshield, but the exact impact location depends on variables such as pedestrian height, vehicle geometry, and impact speed.
Pedestrian accident studies indicate that more than half of vehicle-pedestrian collisions involved the application of brakes at some point during the initial impact phase. The extent of braking, type of driver avoidance maneuver, area of impact on the vehicle, and relative vehicle-pedestrian geometry all influence the pedestrian’s trajectory. Four general types of vehicle interactions occur as a result of the impact: forward projection, roof vault, fender vault, or dragging/run-over.
http://www.meaforensic.com/vehicle-pedestrian-collisions-accident-reconstruction-expert-witness-/
Note also the report that Mollier sustained injuries commensurate with a vehicle striking him. The French interpreted this as Al Hilli’s BMW but as I have previously described this is inexplicable. Much more likely the 4×4 vehicle that left the distinctive marks. This is yet another example of intentional official misinformation/cover-up.
Lizzie007
4 Dec, 2012 – 6:16 pm You ask “The question is why? And why did the French and British go along with the story in public? ”
Yes but significantly they didn’t in one significant respect. As I have pointed out “ad nauseum” the british KNEW the French had announced that the “ex-RAF pilot hero” (WBM) had made the initial call at 3.48 yet FIVE DAYS later they decide to parade WBM with sends an Exocit (see wot I did there?) through the official story by denying he could phone. THIS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN ACCIDENTAL as it would have been so easy for him to lie, to agree with the official line, and no one (other than the people who took the call) would have known any different.
In my opinion this was coded disapproval that the French allowed/assisted an “extreme prejudice” action against one of ours yet the secrecy of the operation precludes open dissent. I believe the hardened stance both against automatic extradition in two cases to the USA and Israeli settlements is an indication of the displeasure.
Straw44berry
4 Dec, 2012 – 8:25 pm I have much earlier drawn attention to the fact that both Al Hilli and Mollier had both lost their fathers in the months preceding the attack. The psychological and physical consequences should not be underestimated. The need to live up to aspirations or right wrongs of the parent may be present and may influence actions. For those with time or interest the following extracts some of the research findings. Could both SAH and SM have been in the process of exorcising their respective daemons?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2638056/
Most of the literature on this topic is clinically based, using small nonrepresentative samples of persons who are recruited for study only after a parent loss has occurred. The clinical literature that has examined this issue has suggested that grief reactions after a parent’s death can lead to depression, thoughts of suicide, and other psychiatric problems (Birtchnell, 1975; Horowitz et al., 1981; McHorney & Mor, 1988; Sanders, 1979–1980).
Moving beyond a clinical approach, Scharlach (1991) examined initial and residual grief reactions among a convenience sample of 220 adults, ages 36 to 60, recruited through a notice in The Los Angeles Times, who experienced the death of a parent within the past 5 years. His results suggested that bereaved adult children report a wide range of initial symptoms related to parent death, including difficulties sleeping and working and getting along with certain people; residual reactions included becoming upset when thinking about the parent, finding it painful to recall the parent’s memory, inability to avoid thinking about the parent, and crying when thinking about the parent. Sharlach did hot find differences in initial or residual grief reactions to mothers in contrast to fathers.
In terms of alcohol consumption (measured as number of drinks), Umberson and Chen (1994) found that father’s death was associated with a greater increase in alcohol consumption over a period of 3 years than not experiencing a father’s death—particularly among daughters who recalled family violence or who continued frequent contact with fathers and sons who recalled a father’s drinking problem in childhood. These scholars also found evidence that the death of either a father or mother (in contrast to not experiencing a parent death) contributed to a greater decline in ratings of physical health over time across the entire sample of men and women.
Among men, loss of both parents led to greater odds of binge drinking, a greater decline in self-esteem, a lower level of personal mastery, a lower level of psychological wellness, and a greater decline in self-rated health. Specifically, our results suggest that death of a father may have a more negative effect on sons in contrast to daughters. Death of a father led to less personal mastery for both daughters and sons. But loss of a father was also associated with a greater increase in depressive symptoms and lower psychological wellness for sons.
Both these national studies also give credence to what smaller studies with more limited samples have indicated—parent loss is associated with problematic outcomes, sometimes short term and sometimes long term, and should not be underestimated (Birtchnell, 1975; Horowitz et al., 1981; McHorney & Mor, 1988; Moss et al, 1993; Sanders, 1979–1980; Scharlach, 1991).
Although it is relatively expectable to lose parents to death during adulthood, because of the long-term attachments and linked lives associated with the mother-adult child bond and the father-adult child bond, it is not uncommon for the death of a parent to be a psychologically and physically challenging as well as a potentially transformative event (Umberson, 2003).
Straw44berry
4 Dec, 2012 – 9:56 pm Sorry Straw did i miss something. What do you have to support your statement (that PD made-up non-existant)
@ Straw44berry
4 Dec, 2012 – 10:01 pm Another PD????????
MONTPELLIER, France — The judge in charge of France’s investigation into the suspected murder of missing English expat Patricia Wilson on Tuesday joined a police search of countryside close to her home.
The presence of examining magistrate Cecile Youl-Pailhes and deputy prosecutor Patrick Desjardins alongside a group of 20 gendarmes raised hopes of an imminent breakthrough in the search for Wilson, 58.
Bluebird
4 Dec, 2012 – 10:07 pm look at the REGISTRATION NUMBER of the hearse.
It is BM 411 PD. Do I have to spell it out yet again? It is the INITIALS of
Brett Martin (BM) and Philippe Didierjean (PD) with the time they mey (4.11 pm) in between.
I am sure this must be a total COINCIDENCE but it is interesting all the same.
Hope you have it now lol.
@ Sys
4 Dec, 2012 – 10:40 pm not to mention suffocation ….?
Oh yea a middle aged man with wife, mother in law and kids engages in drug deal in remote forest spot with known criminal types Bleb
5 Dec, 2012 – 12:15 am. Not very likely eh?
Tim, yes, I think SAH may have been an “assest” recruited during the run up to the Iraq war but assets vary dramatically in importance and relevance. I don’t believe he was actively working for MI6 at the time of his death… I think it’s clear if he was indeed an asset- he turned. Who was he most against based on chat room info? Who may he have been plotting against? Therefore, who had the most to gain by his elimination? It’s quite obvious. The curious thing is all the coverup that ensues.. Think about the arrest of terrorist in France shortly after murders. Was this a quid pro quo? “Yes, we were out of line, France, but we’ll give you something in return.”
A lot of very curious things going on in the world….
@ bluebird 4 Dec, 2012 – 10:55 pm
“Do we have a photo of that car where we can see the windows on the drivers’
side?”
BMW – driver’s side view aerial – Is SM’s bike already wrapped?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/16/article-2203934-0000BB2000000CB2-974_634x431.jpg
:::::::::::::
BMW – different view – passenger side aerial – Note “porthole” lighting – tops of trees near chopper much brighter – trees in background dark – sun light on chopper? hole in clouds? lens portholing?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/29/article-2224742-14DEA43C000005DC-870_634x596.jpg
::::::::::::::
BMW – front view aerial
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02331/murder_2331563a.jpg
::::::::::::::
BMW on lorry – Rear passenger side tyre not flat
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/photographers-and-cameramen-shoot-pictures-while-a-tow-news-photo/151361738
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/tow-truck-escorted-by-french-gendarmes-on-the-combe-dire-news-photo/151361732
@ Bluebird
“MZT is a problem for me. It crashes my browser. Perhaps because there are too many messages on one page. I simply cant open it.”
Marilyn tried to enable pagination, so it would start a new page automatically like here on CM, but it did something to formatting that some people didn’t like, so she turned it off. She will need to start a new page or thread manually.
Here at CM, apparently Jon needs to turn up the big knob that allocates memory now and then, ’cause the server loads all the pages into memory at the same time. [Don’t bother correcting if I’m wrong. It’s something I read in a different discussion the last time it happened.]
@ Bluebird 4 Dec, 2012 – 10:55 pm
“Sys, james : The story with zeena not been seen for 8 hours is BS. They had to check somehow whether or not the two women were dead. Nowhere in the world a policeman would look through a window from outside telling that they were dead and that we need no doctor.”
The only possibility is that anyone who looked in the car without opening it, immediately saw the three victims heads were blown apart such that there was no possibility of life.
Yet BM says he saw “bullet holes” which by no means indicates certain death. People have survived with bullets in the brain and also arrows, metal rods, etc. But BM does not open doors to see if anyone is alive. Nor do rescue services.
From what we can see in photos it does not appear there is the mess of blood and brain matter if the victims heads were blown apart on one side.
As for the smallest girl hiding for 8 hours under bodies and luggage bags, the only possibility of that being true is if she went into shock and was unconscious.
To be graphic (close your eyes for the next few lines if you don’t want unpleasant thoughts) …
1 –
2 –
3 –
… Generally when people die, the body voids itself of fluids etc. What with the blood and possible brain matter, it seems unlikely the girl would remain there unless she was unconscious and not merely sleeping, even if she was frightened.
Tim, you are barking mad, I have told you the same thing SIX times & still you bang on incorrectly that I denied something which in fact I PROMOTED.
You need to get your wires sorted, mate & get a life instead of repeating yourself over & over going around in circles getting no where & turning into a bully….back off.