The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
For reference as background:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/14/with-espionage-at-cold-war-levels-csis-warns-travelling-spies-not-to-fall-for-sexual-honey-traps/
So, the world is back to Cold War spy games. It seems likely that if a state agency/ies were involved at Chevaline, they would have known exactly which family members crossed the pond, and where they were staying. We have not heard if the al-Hillis’ belongings were pillaged in the campground, or if that is why they relocated.
Could it be that something on the phones/laptops was of interest to certain parties, such as emails, contacts and documents? Maybe someone wanted an organizational chart. Would that be enough to warrant multiple murders?
@all
For those interested, MZT blog has been reopened – in honor of bastille day.
@Tim V
On lonely nights – you silly….See, when BB gets going on Gladio and neo-Nazis, those of us not very germanic (if at all) are kind of out to lunch. Sorry. Plus, busy days all around – you know, ‘real life” calling and all that. I was going to respond our comments on 3:06PM with which i can’t disagree much, but must postpone till later.
For now, i’ll say this much – people can get tied up in knots over the “motivation” for the killings, especially if both SM and SAH (possibly + some family) were targeted. I don’t obsess over that too much because (1) I accept that I’m in no position to know, and if I were, i wouldn’t be any safer than the victims were (obviously), and (2) I’m still not entirely convinced there were killings (of some or all).
@Mochyn69 4:18AM
As you can see, I share that lingering suspicion that these killings were not what they appeared to be and possibly not at all. As said here many times before, we have so far not found a good enough reason to eliminate this possibility, though many doubts were raised, making itseem less probable. Like you say, if
“extracted” or “rendered”, it could be simply opportune that the deed be done for more than one party at once. saves funds. That reason has some appeal. Alas, doesn’t make the “how” all that much easier.
As stated before by several, we must always bear in mind that the act of ‘disappearing’ people on European soil is never easy or uncomplicated. Therefore, by definition, the reason must be a mighty good one. If “extracted”, that raises the question of ‘disappeared from whom” -and if ‘renditioned’, the question is “to whom” and “what on earth for..
To me, the concept of ‘extraction” remains at least as credible or as far-fetched as, say, a “local” police related or forestry authority related crime, or Zaid sending Romanian assassin (for a fistful of Euros), or, for that matter ‘gladio” style false flag ops. All of these scenarios lead to even more difficult questions than we had to start with.
And always, in any scenario, any theory, it comes down to the children. They remain a mystery, from Zainab’s seemingly rapid, near-miraculous recovery, to Zeena’s being “hidden” for 8 hours, to neither being allowed free from the ‘clutches” of the Social services, that even now, 10 months later. From the first minute of whatever happened at Chevaline the children were protected from harm (at least physically) and so they are, to this day, one way or another. One might be compelled to conclude that they are ‘hidden” because they have to be. Whatever anyone says or thinks about the “situation”. Whatever one’s favorite “piste” is. Unless one is willing to believe in complete arbitrariness, wanton cruelty by the ‘authorities” and/or dark malfeasance stretching all the way to kingdom come.
Tim v.
We never heard about what exactly SM had done at Cezus. Metal work? Sabbatical?
S&P rather points towards metal workers union.
Metal worker sabbatical is rather unusual.
Metal worker union representative sabbatical is not unusual.
Metal worker unions are powerful. Their top representatives usually do NOT work as metal workers, particularly when this is such a big company.
They are free of all regular work in that company, representing union agenda only, negotiating with government representatives and union members. Particularly in Haute Savoie, unions are not socialist dominated and neither communist dominated but far right wing dominates those unions, like Le Pen’s FL and the more extremist neo nazi party MNR whose Haute Savoie leader was now arrested Christian Mollier.
Metal worker … sabbatical …. metal worker union representative. Makes sense.
We know as a matter of fact that Saddam Hussein did finance far right wing MNR party by using the French metal worker union as a kind of money laundring machine.
We know as a matter of fact, that German BND knows more than anybody else would know regarding financials and financing of extreme right wing parties in Europe.
We know as a matter of fact that German BND tipped off the media that the Geneve money could be linked to Saddam Hussein.
So we got an account in Geneve that belonged to Saad’s father, we got Saad who did insist that this was his own money, we supposingly got a french metal worker union representative who did not receive money for his relatives’ far right wing neonazi party for quite a long time because that account was locked due to inheritance paperwork and who perhaps already previously worked as a kind of cashier and money launderer for those Saddam monies.
Then we have a (kind of) meeting between the guy who insisted that this was his money and the (kind of) cashier for the metal workers union who supposingly worked as a money launderer for Saddams funds given to neonazi party MNR.
Why that meeting? Handing over money? Unlikely because of what we know there was no money taken from the geneva account that day.
Having had a deal (remember, SM was in need of money, too), to deceive the union and the neonazi party and making 50:50?
Or was it more different that e.g. SM was sent by the union to meet Saad to force him giving out the account access?
I am trying to think about Zaid’s and Saad’s conversation regarding the Swiss money.
Zaid: That isnt our money.
Saad: Saddam is dead, nobody knows.
Zaid: Saddams people know, they could tipp off the union
Saad: F*ck them
Zaid: that could get dangerous
Saad: They won’t know. The money will ve gone and my Iraqi friends wouldnt tipp me off.
Zaid: i warned you. This is going to become a mess.
Btw. Bönhardt and Mundlos never killed alone. They were always a team of two. One of them was the shooter, the other one was his backup.
Once something went wrong, they were ready to die.
And they received their funds from government/union representatives, too.
Marlin
That isnt about german neonazi parties but about french neonazi parties who received funds by saddam hussein in the past and who have deep links to “molliers” in their leader positions.
I mentioned the german neonazi killers only because they way they had killed, the false witnesses, fake cyclists and fake speeding cars as well as the intelligence representative always present at the locations of the killings before and while the victims were killed, looks like a carbon copy of the Chevaline murders, including the gun used by them (7.65 mm with a silencer, having been purchased in Switzerland/Solothurn), including the clean shots into the head, regardless whether or not their victims were Turkish shop owners or German police guys.
Tim v.
Bönhardt and Mundlos always used ONE gun ONLY although they were always two at the scene. One of them was the shooter, the other guy was his backup.
Some links regarding to what i had said, in case that you had missed those links in nov 2012.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Republican_Movement
On March 6, 2008, Jean-Marie Le Pen claimed that the MNR was funded illegally by the UIMM, the steel industry branch of the Medef. Bruno Mégret denied these accusations, and counter-claimed that it was foolish for Jean Marie Le Pen to make such claims, as he has been already alleged to be funded by Saddam Husseinand the Unification Church of Sun Myung Moon. In an interview to France 2 on the same day, Le Pen precised that he had not claimed Bruno Mégret was personally receiving funds from UIMM.[4][5]Later in 2008, Bruno Mégret stepped down from party leadership and retired from political life.
http://mapyourinfo.com/wiki/en.wikipedia.org/Mouvement%20national%20r%C3%A9publicain/
http://fr.sci.philo.narkive.com/bdWtK2iU/le-pen-ment
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/politique/20080306.OBS3707/megret-s-interroge-sur-la-lucidite-de-le-pen.html
http://www.uimm.fr/
This is the UIMM, the french metallurgist union, who allegedly was a “money key” between Saddam’s funds given to french far right politics, far extremist MNR party (christian mollier) and Le Pen’s far right FN party.
UIMM,(french metallurgy union) millions of gold and hidden monies in Geneva. Coincidence?
http://archives-lepost.huffingtonpost.fr/article/2009/04/07/1487029_une-filiale-de-l-uimm-disposait-d-un-compte-secret-a-geneve.html
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2009/04/07/01016-20090407ARTFIG00373-une-filiale-de-l-uimm-avait-un-compte-secret-en-suisse-.php
Probably just coincidence but we have had already so much data here that we should add up each little piece of rice we would be able to find.
Phillippe Brun (!!),
The honorable president of UIMM ( metallurgy workers union), now located in Geneve, Switzerland (see swiss geneva gold and black money links above!).
Education, work and links to aerospace and microelectronics.
ch.linkedin.com/pub/philippe-brun/15/29b/870/
Wrote a “piece” with regard to Blue’s posts.
But it got “scrubbed” somehow.
Anyway, the gist of it was…..if you replace the term “Neo Nazi” with the term “Nationalist” and it begins to “make sense”.
France after all isn’t “France”. It’s a collection of “regions” (or prefecture or department etc).
And “nationalism” isn’t only the reserve of a “country” don’t forget.
Seeing how small the 2 holes are in Saad’s own window (from Max’s excellent photo, my colour blindness means some benefits are unfortunately lost to me) where exactly would BM need to reach to to turn off the ignition.
Max’s link:-
http://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/112636811_fr_333658y_proc4_e_2x.jpg
Not the most slender of arms:-
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/13/article-2202635-14FFAC69000005DC-665_306x605.jpg
Do you agree that in the original photos of the BMW the hole in that window is much larger:-
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02535/AlHilli_murder_2535313b.jpg
Straw
I dont know whether or not the holes in the first photo were photoshopped. At least they look like being photoshopped. Did Martin have a diamond or better a professional glass cutter? How was he able to produce those squares and those straight cuts? That is physically impossible if you use brute force to smash a window. The marks cannot be straight then, the cuts would be randow, splittered and much more circled.
Either that picture was photoshopped or somebody used a professional glass cutter. I guess for photoshop …
Straw, Blue.
Not sure about the “hole”.
It may just be different angles of the photographs.
It’s the white mark on the roof that I was looking at.
Due to the changing angles of the pictures, that white mark can not be a “reflection”.
Can it be a “misplaced” shot ?
The answer to the missing “roof rail” problem ?
If it is….if that is an explanation, then it throws up some “issues” …but solves some other questions.
BB
I hadnt noticed the straight lines of the holes in the car windows.
How does the BMW get transported without the broken laminated glass falling out of the windows on route?
I wonder if they put some kind of framework maybe a laminated one over the windows. It might be the edges of these that have the straight edge.
I have done a small google search for forensic work on broken windows but no joy, I did however find this site that may be of use later:-
http://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/english/centre_forensic/InformationforInvestigatorsSubmitters/HandbookofForensicEvidencefortheInvestigator/CFS_handbook.html#vehicles
Blue.
The President of the union.
“Its current president is Frédéric Saint-Geours, who was elected the 20 December 2007”.
So I am not getting “Brun’s” entry on LinkedIn ?
Clearly “UIMM 13 04” is a sub district of the main branch.
http://www.uimmprovence.fr/
But clearly (?) he’s alive and well and still at “ST Microelectronics” ?
Straw
That is what i saw in your link:
Comparison Samples
Collect several full-thickness pieces of glass from each source of broken glass (e.g.,from each broken window of a vehicle), package and label separately.Broken glass should be collected from the window frame (avoid picking up glass from the ground).If possible, include samples from different areas of the broken window and from the area close to the point of breakage.For laminated glass, submit samples of glass from both sides of the laminate and label them as outside/inside.Where a physical match may be possible, submit all available broken glass and protect fractured edges by wrapping in soft tissue or Styrofoam.When determining whether a window was broken from the inside or outside, secure any glass remaining in the frame with tape and mark the sides of the glass as inside or outside;Submit all of the glass at the scene and the entire frame.Handle and package comparison samples separately from questioned samples;If possible, have one person collect and package the comparison sample and another individual collect and package questioned samples.
James
It seems difficult to believe that the white roof mark could be a shot from above.
For a long time we discussed it being the point of leverage to remove that side of the roof rack, but FB didnt see anything untoward about the roof rack.
I notice that FB didnt see Saad’s body at the funeral and dont intend to be insensitive about you, FB losing your friend Saad but if the families bodies were unable to be ID’d facially then I have a real hope that they are still alive.
No access to the girls or being able to the happy photo taken on that afternoon see a ‘replacement family’
Also just why would Sylvain Mollier only be allowed to be buried temporarily and not cremated if 10 months later a final resting place is still not allowed.
Ooops I didnt finish my thought:-
No access to the girls or being able to the happy photo taken on that afternoon see a ‘replacement family’ only enhances that.
James
I believe that he is alive and well and still both a president of a district of the french metallurgy workers union and he still is working in geneve for ST.
It is cozy for UIMM to know that there is one of them in geneve who could care for their secret swiss monies and for their gold. Isnt it?
I guess that the name “Brun” is just coincidence, but who knows?
Curious about his aerospace links, though.
James, probably totally unrelated but out of curiosity:
UIMM Philippe Brun is linked to that company in his linkedin profile:
http://mobile.zodiacaerospace.com/en
Could this company have relations to Saad’s work? Could they have had contacts through Saad’s work? And what about ST Microelectronics? SSTL?
I sadly believe that you have to be a logged in as a linkedin member in order to open his profile.
BB 8.23am
I like your theory very much. It feels right.
I have never lost sight of the fact that SM’s son mysteriously stopped tweeting one whole day before the events at Chevaline. Perhaps SM knew he was heading into a ‘situation’ and wanted to be with his son that day in case he never saw him again.
Worth to read (and translate) the below french text:
http://www.humanite.fr/m/node/422579
Memorable collection of names of french nationalists:
http://www.france-petitions.com/petition/114/contre-le-droit-de-vote-des-etrangers-defendons-notre-identite-defendons-notre-nationalite/toutes
Mochyn69
15 Jul, 2013 – 4:18 am I think you might have slightly misunderstood my point. I hadn’t forgotten S&P. What I was trying to illustrate was the mismatch between the claims and reality which is why i put in quotation marks. Both Mollier and Martin have been presented as innocents who were just unlucky to be there. I don’t think we believe that for a moment. The suggestion is indicative of subtle information manipulation.
Bluebird
15 Jul, 2013 – 1:30 am when State secret organisations get involved in exercises to “neutralise” targeted individuals – there are a number of options: use government military employees kept and trained for that purpose; use ex-military private companies; or plug into criminal networks or individuals. The latter was very evident in the JFK assassination for example but it carries risks. It was also the set-up employed during the post war period and later in the 80’s to which you refer. The former was part of the “Cold War” stand-off and fears that western Europe would slide into Soviet influence and control. I am not sure what the 80’s outrages were designed to do other than kill Turks and generate vaguely anti-soviet fear.
I made the point many months ago, that the approach of those behind such things is often formulaic. You will remember the fuss when a disgruntled member of MI6 spilled the beans about a tunnel/flashlight plan to kill Milošević, that had inconvenient parallels with Diana’s accident in 1997. “Training Exercises” crop up in 9/11, 7/7 and Boston. “False flag” and quite complicated cover stories that despite glaringly obvious impossibilities remain incredibly hard to challenge in the public consciousness. This is the world we live in and it is naive to think that Chevaline is not part of it.
Perhaps it is worth noting that Grenoble, where SAH visited and a stash of cash resides, was during the cold war, a recognised centre for Soviet espionage operations. It was also a chosen base for Sadaam’s European contacts and his brother was in residence there. Nor should we overlook the fact that all agencies paid their spies often into separate accounts as a sort of insurance should they flee and to avoid flashy spending that may draw attention to them. The £800000 could be such but there is no guarantee the source was SH. Indeed it might have been a Western power and the BDN story just another bit of misinformation to protect itself or others.
I meant to also include outrages specifically designed to provide the necessary shift in public opinion to allow significant changes in public opinion as for example the passing of the Patriot Act in America and attacking both Afghanistan and Iraq following 9/11.
I say we should be very cautious whenever politicians demand new measures on the back of the latest outrage, and subject the event itself to scrupulous critical examination for tell tale signs of the black arts. This is not conspiracy mania. It is justified and necessary scepticism in action.
Tim v.
Many options are possible.
I do believe nothing what they reveal to the media. Neither the french nor the british side. In that case i believe the BND because they arent involved. And i believe the facts that we have collected: family links, history, old media reports, jobs.
I dont think zhat Eric is a liar. He is just left alone. He should hear what the german chief of investigation had to say at court last week:
“I was left alone. False witnesses who lied, fake cyclists and wrong car types that were invented by witnesses who werent even there. Government protected people whom we knew but whom we arent allowed to interview. For years we did investigate into the wrong directions. We werent blind on our right eye, but we had no evidence to investigate into that direction.”
I believe that Eric is left in the very same situation. Nobody talks, no family members. He isnt even allowed to interview Zaid. Fake witnesses, fake cars, fake cyclists and 100 wrong theories. Time consuming, isnt it? Eric isnt blind on his right eye, but he has no reason to investigate there. And if he would, new witnesses would immediately reveal a new suspect, stopping and turning his correct investigation.
When i read that interview of the german police officer who led the Bosphorus murder investigation, then i suddenly knew that Chevaline is a carbon copy. We just have to exchange their names. Even the guns are similar.
If one were to be asked “What is the over-riding policy objective of America and Israel and perhaps Europe?” one would be hard pressed not to answer “Preventing Iran the technological capacity to make and deliver nuclear weapons”. It has been helped along that road by Pakistan and China, but much of the actual equipment has been obtained from European companies no doubt at a premium with generous kick backs along the way, taking circuitous routes including India and Dubai.
Gordon Carera in his book “MI6 – Life and death in the British Secret Service” makes the point that the clandestine fight against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan using the Taliban and Northern Alliance which required Pakistan co-operation, allowed it to develop its nuclear capability and via A Q Khan to Iran – a truly sobering thought. The irony of the Taliban of course need not be referred to.
He also makes the point as regards the relationship between CIA and MI6 is that the latter had much stronger human assets and intelligence because of its pre-colonial links that the former wish to utilize and did so after 9/11 welded the two together. So what could be more obvious than a British inspired plan to use respected Iraqi assets of the highest quality to get inside any European network that had or was supplying the Iranian nuclear and/or weapons programme?
I don’t believe the British had intended or envisaged a massacre and certainly weren’t behind it. They were however to a certain extent protected and WBM was off target. Someone wanted to nip this enterprise in the bud and was desperate to stop it. Did the killers misunderstand the nature of the meeting or did they act because they knew its true nature? Had it been a ploy all along just to get the parties together and make a very public statement to those in the know? “If you try this sort of thing, this is what will happen to you.” Within the incestuous world of espionage it would be a very public humiliation. There are people in MI5/MI6 who I am sure are still smarting and explains to some extent the extraordinary measures taken to guard both Zaid and the daughters from both “friends” and foes.
You may be right Bluebird
15 Jul, 2013 – 3:05 pm
Mr. Wilfling, the police chief investigator also said in an interview:
“We immediately knew that they were professional killers because it looked like a professional assassination. 2 Shots right into the heads of the victims from a very close distance. No amateur could do that. We knew that they were professional killers. That is the trademark of pro killers.” Do the germen learn different things at police school than the french?
The first two are in english. Hardly anything to find in english. Pity!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j8Jl8L3kms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbuR0VNFHrg
The next ones are in german, demonstrating the involvement of BND and Gladio/CIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SfTEwrspKg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIRUsvw69Qo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8bSj04xiI
Bb
In that link below please watch at least 24:50 to 26:10
Even then if you do not understand the text.
This is how the killers came as mountain bikers and how their bikes disappeared.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8bSj04xiIBb
Is there a “dejavu”?
Here is a better and longer report in english:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78VOlAt3oM
Dd
In that link (same as above) watch at least 13:40 – 15:26 about what the woman says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78VOlAt3oM
“Dejavu” ?
And the silence of the people in the area ?
Maquisards ?
Almost becomes a tradition.
Straw,
That mark. That shot. It’s from a “distance”.
It is merely a glancing shot hitting the roof and the roof bar.
It shows (could show) a shot fired from a “distance” and likely at the height of a person “stood upright”.
That IS significant.
The car was at a “distance” when it was attacked.
Maybe not when “first attacked”, but it’s possible that it was during the “first attack” on it.
NOTE
Why “The Martinet” ?
Cat o’ Nine Tails. Military discipline