Deconstructing Putin

by craig on March 19, 2014 1:25 pm in Uncategorized

I listened live to Putin’s speech yesterday with great interest.  Here is my own analysis, for what it is worth.

Putin was strongest in his accusations of western hypocrisy.  His ironic welcoming of the West having suddenly discovered the concept of international law was very well done.  His analysis of the might is right approach the West had previously adopted, and their contempt of the UN over Iraq and Afghanistan, was spot on. Putin also was absolutely right in describing the Kosovo situation as “highly analogous” to the situation in Crimea. That is indeed true, and attempts by the West – including the Guardian - to argue the cases are different are pathetic exercises in special pleading.

The problem is that Putin blithely ignored the enormous logical inconsistency in his argument.  He stated that the Crimean and Kosovo cases were highly analogous, but then used that to justify Russia’s action in Crimea, despite the fact that Russia has always maintained the NATO Kosovo intervention was illegal(and still refuses to recognize Kosovo).  In fact of course Russia was right over Kosovo, and thus is wrong over Crimea.

I was very interested that Putin made distinct reference to the appalling crimes against the Tartars in the 1930’s, but also to the terrible suffering of Ukrainians in that period.  His references were not detailed but their meaning was clear.  I was surprised because under Putin’s rule there has been a great deal of rehabilitation of Stalin.  Archives that were opened under glasnost have frozen over again, and history in Russian schools now portrays Stalin’s foreign policy achievement much more than his crimes (and it is now again  possible to complete your Russian school education with no knowledge the Stalin-Hitler pact ever happened).  So this was both surprising and positive.  Designed to be positive was his assurance that Crimea will be trilingual.  We will see what happens; Putin’s Russia is in fact not tolerant of its ethnic populations in majority Russian areas, and in fact contains a great many more far right thugs than Ukraine –  probably about the same  percentage of the population.

The 97% referendum figure is simply unbelievable to any reasonable person and is straight out of the Soviet playbook – it was strange to see Putin going in and out of modern media friendly mode and his audience, with their Soviet en brosse haircuts and synchronized clapping – obviously liked the Soviet bits best.

The attempt to downplay Russia’s diplomatic isolation was also a bit strange.  He thanked China, though China had very pointedly failed to support Russian in the Security Council.  When you are forced to thank people for abstaining, you are not in a strong position diplomatically.  He also thanked India, which is peculiar, because the Indian PM yesterday put out a press release saying Putin had called him, but the had urged Putin to engage diplomatically with the interim government in Kiev, which certainly would not be welcome to Putin.  I concluded that Putin was merely trying to tell his domestic audience Russia has support, even when it does not.

But what I find really strange is that the parts of the speech I found most interesting have not drawn any media comment I can see.  Putin plainly said that in his discussions with Kuchma on the boundaries of Ukraine after the collapse of the Soviet Union, they hadn’t wanted to open any dispute with what they expected to be a friendly neighbor, and that therefore the boundaries of Ukraine had never been finally demarcated.  He said twice the boundaries had not been demarcated.  That seemed to indicate a very general threat to Eastern Ukraine. He also spoke of the common heritage of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine in a way that indicated that he did not accept that Ukraine might choose a political future away from Russia.

Secondly, he said that on the day the Soviet Union broke up, Russians in many places had “woken up to find themselves in a foreign country.” Again from the context in which he said it, this referred not just to Crimea, and not just even to the rest of Ukraine, but to Russian nationals all over the Former Soviet Union.  I would be worrying a lot about this part of the speech if I was Kazakh, to give just one example.  Putin seemed to be outlining a clear agenda to bring Russian speaking areas of CIS countries back in to Mother Russia – indeed, I see no other possible interpretation of his actions in Georgia and Ukraine.

I think that we should start listening much more carefully to what he says. I also think that the weakness of the EU’s response to events gives Putin a very dangerous encouragement to pursue further aggrandizement.  I posted a few days ago:

The EU I expect to do nothing.  Sanctions will target a few individuals who are not too close to Putin and don’t keep too many of their interests in the West.  I don’t think Alisher Usmanov and Roman Abramovic need lose too much sleep, that Harrods need worry or that we will see any flats seized at One Hyde Park.  (It is among my dearest wishes one day to see One Hyde Park given out for council housing.)  Neither do I expect to see the United States do anything effective; its levers are limited.

The truth is of course that the global political elite are in the pockets of the global financial elite, and while ordinary Russians are still desperately poor, the money the oligarchs rip out of Russia’s backward commodity exporting economy is parceled around the world financial system in ways that make it impossible for the western political classes to do anything.  Whose funds would the hedge fund managers look after?  Whose yacht could Mandelson and Osborne holiday on?

Personally I should like to see a complete financial freeze on the entire Russian oligarchy.  The knock on effects would only hurt a few bankers, and city types and those who depend on them (cocaine dealers, lap dancers, Porsche dealers, illegal domestic servants).  Sadly we shan’t see anything happen. They won’t let Eton go bust.


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  1. israel “retaliates”:

    19 March: CNN: Israel retaliates in Syria after roadside bomb attack against Israeli troops
    Israel has warned Syria’s government that any aggression against Israeli citizens will be met with force, as a roadside bomb attack which injured Israeli troops prompted airstrikes on Syrian targets…
    Netanyahu: “Our policy is very clear: We attack those who attack us.”…
    Israeli forces responded to the blast with artillery fire aimed at Syrian military targets across the frontier, it said. This was followed by airstrikes early Wednesday.
    “We will not tolerate any violation of our sovereignty and attacks against our soldiers and civilians, and we will act unwaveringly and with strength against all those that are acting against us, at every time and every place,” said Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon.
    “We see the Assad regime as responsible for what is going on in its territory, and if it continues to cooperate with terror organizations that are trying to attack Israel, we will continue to extract a heavy price from him, in a way which will make him regret his actions.”…

    Israel is “under siege”:

    19 March: Front Page: P. David Hornick: Israel Under Siege as Nuke Talks Open
    But if Washington was upset by Yaalon’s latest words on Iran, it could hardly take comfort from a report in Haaretz on Wednesday that Netanyahu and Yaalon had ordered the Israeli army to prepare for a possible strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities in 2014…
    Unlike the Western diplomats launching yet another round of talks in Vienna this week with a brutal regime, Israel does not have the luxury of living in a fantasy world…

    how many times has Israel bombed Syria during the current conflict? four, five, six? have they been sanctioned by the UN? the US? the EU? what if they attack Iran?

  2. some guys have all the luck –

    19 March – Reuters – Exclusive: The mysterious journey of the Libya oil tanker
    A Cypriot police source said two Israelis and a Senegalese who flew into Cyprus by Learjet and took a charter vessel toward the tanker were detained for questioning on Saturday on suspicion of attempting to buy the cargo, which Libya considers stolen.
    The source said the men, two of whom had diplomatic passports – one from Senegal and one from a central African country – were freed after a court declined to issue an arrest warrant and the men then left for Tel Aviv.

  3. Oddie Your last two posts for which thanks.

    1.Israel knows no law as we know and is never subjected to any sanctions. The Golan Heights are stolen land.

    2.The story of the Morning Glory is worthy of a film script. Noted that the two anonymous Israelis slipped back to Tel Aviv.

  4. Ben Further to the overnight discussion, here is a photo of Coolidge in a feathered headdress. 1927.

  5. New report reveals how ‘American neocons’ stage attacks against alternative media

    March 20, 2014 04:22

    One of the neocons being Kagan (PNAC), Nuland’s husband.

    See how they work.

  6. Andy,

    I liked your post at 9.32. It was also a good and interesting article that you linked to and I would recommend all to read it. It demonstrates what a mess this whole thing is, the problems caused when unitary states/countries/federations like the U.S.S.R. break up creating national borders where once merely administrative ones existed and what fools Western governments were to start messing about with it. It was all complicated enough before some bright spark decided it would be a bit of a wheeze to engage in a tug-o-war with Moscow using Ukraine as the rope.

    So, while there may be qualitative similarities between Russian hypocrisy and breaking of International Law (though I’ve never understood why the Crimean referendum was “illegal” given that it was called by the Crimean government) and that of the West, there is no quantitative comparison at all. Crimea was clearly part of Russia in all but the matter of a line on the map and now that anomaly has been corrected; big deal.

    Furthermore, the “occupation” of Crimea by Russia wasn’t preceded by the hideous bombing campaigns that N.A.T.O. is so fond of and Russia’s action was re-active, not pro-active. It was a response to a decade and a half of murderous and illegal interventions around the world by Washington and its puppets and the recent violent coup in Kiev. Was there anyone who didn’t expect it?

  7. Knobkerry

    I am not with anyone, I am just me. I like to think that’s my charm. “If you are not with us you’re against us”. Are you channeling George W Bush?

  8. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 8:57 am


    “it’s been a long, long time coming…

    13 Dec, 2013: Remarks by Victoria Nuland
    Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine…3


    Not a long time coming on this blog, though.

    I posted that verbatim extract over a week ago … and then posted it again (all you have to do is listen to the video and use pen and paper).

  9. Reminds me of what Basil was thinking about Hitler in that episode of Ponty Pyithon where he kept telling himself not to mention the war to that German visitor, only to keep doing so.

    Yes THF, its because nothing bigger has ever happened in the wirters life and one must perpetuate this feeling for its multpile uses today. How can one make a point about dastard behaviour when one can’t throw in a little Hitler spice with the porridge, well portioned, off course.

    Thanks for going through Putins speech with a toothcombe Craig. I can report that activists from the eaqstern Ukraine are gathering support on British football supporters fancine websites.

    This one, Sheva, does not like to be confronted with Yatsenyuks present evasive actions, or be challenged on the issue of fascist supporters. S/he proclaims to be middle class, well connected and being able to sample the warm winters in the UK if and when s/he likes.
    I asked what s/he thinks of your Putin translation, who knows, s/he might want to upgrade to a political blog, we shall see.

  10. Ba'al Zevul (Occam's Disposable Razor)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:30 am

  11. Tarpit at 3.43 a.m.

    Welcome. Thank you for your enlightened comments, especially about adherence to the International Bill of Human Rights. Not everybody can recite them, much less live by them, but here is a summary. I should be interested if any of the Uncle Samophiles can see any to which the US adheres. Or even the UK. I occasionally get told my opinions are shameful. This is where the real shame lies.

    A summary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

    1. Everyone is free and we should all be treated in the same way.

    2. Everyone is equal despite differences in skin colour, sex, religion, language for example.

    3. Everyone has the right to life and to live in freedom and safety.

    4. No one has the right to treat you as a slave nor should you make anyone your slave.

    5. No one has the right to hurt you or to torture you.

    6. Everyone has the right to be treated equally by the law.

    7. The law is the same for everyone, it should be applied in the same way to all.

    8. Everyone has the right to ask for legal help when their rights are not respected.

    9. No one has the right to imprison you unjustly or expel you from your own country.

    10. Everyone has the right to a fair and public trial.

    11. Everyone should be considered innocent until guilt is proved.

    12. Every one has the right to ask for help if someone tries to harm you, but no-one can enter your home, open your letters or bother you or your family without a good reason.

    13. Everyone has the right to travel as they wish.

    14. Everyone has the right to go to another country and ask for protection if they are being persecuted or are in danger of being persecuted.

    15. Everyone has the right to belong to a country. No one has the right to prevent you from belonging to another country if you wish to.

    16. Everyone has the right to marry and have a family.

    17. Everyone has the right to own property and possessions.

    18. Everyone has the right to practise and observe all aspects of their own religion and change their religion if they want to.

    19. Everyone has the right to say what they think and to give and receive information.

    20. Everyone has the right to take part in meetings and to join associations in a peaceful way.

    21. Everyone has the right to help choose and take part in the government of their country.

    22. Everyone has the right to social security and to opportunities to develop their skills.

    23. Everyone has the right to work for a fair wage in a safe environment and to join a trade union.

    24. Everyone has the right to rest and leisure.

    25. Everyone has the right to an adequate standard of living and medical help if they are ill.

    26. Everyone has the right to go to school.

    27. Everyone has the right to share in their community’s cultural life.

    28. Everyone must respect the ‘social order’ that is necessary for all these rights to be available.

    29. Everyone must respect the rights of others, the community and public property.

    30. No one has the right to take away any of the rights in this declaration.

  12. Charles Frith

    The moderators modulate. A little bit of yesterday’s post can be fried up as bubble and squeak, but no crazy Zio-bangers and mash on the front page, setting off the optical smoke alarms with vizible zio-speak.

  13. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    19 Mar, 2014 – 3:30 pm

    “Those population displacements are historical fact, Herby, which even you and your Eminent friends can’t wish away. So irony doesn’t come into it.”

    You obviously haven’t understood Habbabkuk.

    A clue: Israel

  14. Thanks John. Good reminder. I have a poster of that list on the wall here.

  15. It’s all very fascinating stuff.When I was growing up a carpenter close to where I lived referred to the hammer as an American screw driver.Many years later I began to see his point.
    The Americans do not care how they make their story/policy fit the picture.If the hole is square ,they simply thump harder till the peg goes through.They do not think for one second that they might want to remove it sometime.And I think that it is obvious with the Russian and US methods in Ukraine.
    Also obvious is that money is the driving factor behind the Western push in Ukraine.They want the resources and want to protect their newly won “riches” with their hitman NATO. Russia steals their glory and now greed is dictating the retreat.We’d better hang onto what we’ve got.
    Question is ,what have they got ? And do the Ukrainians left in Ukraine support it ?
    Thank you John.Many years since I read our rights. Does the UN still believe in its own charter I wonder ?

  16. Richard; “Furthermore, the “occupation” of Crimea by Russia wasn’t preceded by the hideous bombing campaigns that N.A.T.O. is so fond of and Russia’s action was re-active, not pro-active. It was a response to a decade and a half of murderous and illegal interventions around the world by Washington and its puppets and the recent violent coup in Kiev. Was there anyone who didn’t expect it?”

    On the contrary, many would have us believe it was a shocking unexpected, unprovoked display of aggressive hypocrisy, including a certain ex-Ambassador with real life experience of gritty Realpolitik !

    Kurtan; “Does the UN still believe in its own charter I wonder ?”

    They try to, but cannot help being used as plaything/tool of US imperialism;

    ““They act as they please: here and there, they use force against sovereign states, building coalitions based on the principle ‘If you are not with us, you are against us.’ To make this aggression look legitimate, they force the necessary resolutions from international organizations, and if for some reason this does not work, they simply ignore the UN Security Council and the UN overall.”

  17. “Thanks John. Good reminder. I have a poster of that list on the wall here.”

    I got a little booklet Mary from Amnesty International. When I campaign on behalf of people like Talha Ahsan and Babar Ahmed I think of articles 2, 3, 6, 9, 10, 11, and 15. This is what has happened to my beloved country and its so-called friends.

  18. Ba'al Zevul (Occam's Disposable Razor)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:25 am

    My link above may be to a site the excrescences find unacceptable. Apologies. The article is from Business Insider;

    “According to ExxonMobil and Ukrainian government announcements, between June and August of 2012, bids for Skifska were collected and assessed. LUKoil of Russia competed against a consortium of ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell, OMV Pet rom of Romania, and the Ukrainian state-owned entity, Nadra Ukrainy. The Russian bid was rejected, and ExxonMobil (with a 40% operating stake) was the winner.

    The ExxonMobil reports have said no more than “we are working with our co-venturers and the Ukrainian government to finalize the Production Sharing Agreement. But almost two years later, no agreement has been signed. A source close to the company says the promised payment for Skifska, a signing bonus of $325 million, won’t be paid until there is a production sharing agreement. The reason that hasn’t been signed is that Exxon and the Ukrainian government have so far been unable to agree on production, investment, tax and royalty terms. The negotiations have continued over the past twelve months, but no money has been spent drilling at sea. The only data available to Exxon so far were provided by Stavitsky and Rudko during the bidding process.

    Officially, according to an Exxon spokesman, “we remain interested in the block.”

    Unofficially, Exxon has halted its negotiations with the Ukrainians “due to the political situation, but is pressing ahead with several Russian projects, including in Russian waters close to the Crimean Peninsula.” This was told to New York analysts last week, and reported in Dallas on March 5. According to the report, ExxonMobil senior vice president Andy Swiger conceded the company has bigger fish to fry in the Russian Arctic than off the Crimean shore. According to Swiger, the Crimean block “has active oil seeps and that drilling would begin in 2015.” According to ExxonMobil chairman and chief executive, Rex Tillerson: “In terms of our view of country risk, geopolitical risk, other than things like sanctions, we don’t see any new challenges out of the current situation [in Russia].”

    Plenty there for the conspiracy theorist, I’d say.

  19. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:26 am

    Mr Murray

    It was actually Lenin who first said that who are not with us is against us. Bush that this too, but certainly author rights belong to Lenin.

  20. John Goss @ 9:58 AM

    The UK doesn’t adhere to even half of the rights in that declaration. And this is done with the collusion of both left and right political parties and that of our head of state.

  21. Exactly Gaston.

  22. Uzbek 11.26 a.m.


  23. You want your mistress-lapdancer’s assets to be frozen? You’re a hypocritical pervert!

  24. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:36 am

    John Goss and other MAD lefties

    Any comments to this from putin’s recent speech to the parliament on 18 March.

    You lefties who (supposedly) oppose tyranny how do you treat this direct threat that putin has made to the Russians who oppose his chauvinistic ideas? For your information legend of Fifth Column and national traitors have existed in Russia since inception of Russian Empire right through Soviet times to (as it is apparent) present days.

    “Obviously, we will encounter external opposition, but this is a decision that we need to make for ourselves. Are we ready to consistently defend our national interests, or will we forever give in, retreat to who knows where? Some Western politicians are already threatening us with not just sanctions but also the prospect of increasingly serious problems on the domestic front. I would like to know what it is they have in mind exactly: action by a fifth column, this disparate bunch of national traitors , or are they hoping to put us in a worsening social and economic situation so as to provoke public discontent? We consider such statements irresponsible and clearly aggressive in tone, and we will respond to them accordingly.

  25. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:40 am

    John Goss

    I take it you believe word to word of everything has written in Bible? I for instance question a LOT of quotations and description of miracles written in this and any other holly books.

    I quoted Lenin as there is documental evidence of him saying this? certainly not in Bible.

  26. John Goss@9:58am , I wonder what Frederick Lindemann
    who was Churchill’s best friend and Chief scientific adviser
    would have to say about the Human rights list.

    This is what Lindemann advocated in a lecture in the 1930`s

    “Surgery, mind control, and drug and hormone manipulations
    would one day allow humans to be fine-tuned for specific tasks.
    At the lower end of the race and class spectrum, he suggested,
    one could remove the ability to suffer or to feel ambition.
    This subclass would do all the unpleasant work and not once think
    of revolution or of voting rights. To perpetuate empires,
    he theorized, one need only remove the ability of slaves to see
    themselves as slaves.”

  27. Ba'al Zevul (Occam's Disposable Razor)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:46 am

    Don’t know if I qualify as a ‘MAD leftie’, but it occurs to me that what Putin, like any other politician, says, depends on who he is talking to. For instance, he probably doesn’t have Exxon in mind in this speech. With whom he is doing good business, and who will probably be putting as much of a brake on US sanctions as it can. Just to reiterate the choicest bit of something I’ve tried to draw attention to twice before, without apology –

    “Unofficially, Exxon has halted its negotiations with the Ukrainians “due to the political situation, but is pressing ahead with several Russian projects, including in Russian waters close to the Crimean Peninsula.” This was told to New York analysts last week, and reported in Dallas on March 5. According to the report, ExxonMobil senior vice president Andy Swiger conceded the company has bigger fish to fry in the Russian Arctic than off the Crimean shore. According to Swiger, the Crimean block “has active oil seeps and that drilling would begin in 2015.” According to ExxonMobil chairman and chief executive, Rex Tillerson: “In terms of our view of country risk, geopolitical risk, other than things like sanctions, we don’t see any new challenges out of the current situation [in Russia].””

    Exxon’s more than happy to go with a Russian Crimea, and knowing Exxon’s huge lobbying power, the US is stuck between freedom n’ democracy and congressional votes. No?

  28. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:48 am

    It looks like Putin is testing the west on declaration of purges in Russia.

    I bid MAD lefties will praise putin’s wisdom and his tough stance to the west. Who cares about Russians or others sacrificed for the name of anti-western hysteria.

    Clearly MAD western leftie’s approach.

  29. Ba'al Zevul (Occam's Disposable Razor)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:51 am

    Who cares about Russians or others sacrificed for the name of anti-western hysteria drilling rights? (fixed)

    No-one with any power to change things. Repeatedly proven in the Middle East.

  30. Dave Lawton, 20 Mar, 2014 – 11:46 am

    I wonder indeed. Your Lindemann quote comes very close to what Aaron Russo was told by Nathan Rothschild. I really believe that the increase in new high-security prisons in the US is part of that plan. Don’t want to say more just now.

  31. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:00 pm

    Ba’al Zevul (Occam’s Disposable Razor)

    You last post certainly does NOT qualify you as Mad lefties. That is what I like. Clear arguments, not brainwashed propaganda.

    I agree US/EU have a lot of financial interests in Russia. Trade with Russia makes a LOT of people in the west Rich. Not only investment bankers, but tourist industries, restaurants, fashion industries, energy companies, various industries etc.

    Your reference to Exxon reminds me support Henry Ford had for Hitler believing that it was good for business. Shall I remind that it took 50 million lives (least American) to correct this misjudgement.

  32. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:04 pm

    Ba’al Zevul (Occam’s Disposable Razor)

    MAD lefties here certainly least concerned (I hope so) with drilling rights. Or are they?

    For them anti-western hysteria is paramount. It gives them oxygen and meaning in their lives. Even when it comes at the expense of freedom or lives. Golodomor, Gulag, Great Leap forward have been unnoticed by MAD lefties for decades. But praises for very leaders who delivered these genocidal mechanisms was high amongst MAD western lefties.

  33. Uzbek in the UK, I am really surprised by your rudeness. Over the last fortnight you have called me a Mad leftie, a bible-basher because I point out your mistake (you should have thanked me), and made claims that I support the Andijan massacre. You clearly did not read my article:

    Now if you keep hounding me because I do not share your vision about western democracies I will ignore you, as I ignore those who believe in torture, and the sock-puppets. Have you signed up to MI5 or something?

  34. Still Putin bashing?
    “Personally I should like to see a complete financial freeze on the entire Russian oligarchy. The knock on effects would only hurt a few bankers, and city types and those who depend on them (cocaine dealers, lap dancers, Porsche dealers, illegal domestic servants). Sadly we shan’t see anything happen. They won’t let Eton go bust.”

    Personally I would of liked to see the banks fall in 2008 when they went bankrupt in the market place!
    I am sure a lot of venture capitalist money came from these very Russian oligrchs as well!
    so who are we actually bailing out out right now,all thanks to your local centralised authority in this case the western representative democracy,care of Osbourne and Mandelson etc?

    Craig the REAL problem is not whether tweedle dum is less evil than tweedle dee
    The problem is the political system in the East and the West!
    We complain about an endless list of corrupt rulers ,usually delusionally believing thier corrupt rulers are worse than ours!
    When in fact we should be challenging the system that produces an endless list of corrupt rulers!
    You ARE delusional if you think repeating the system will produce a different result!!
    The repeatedly used system is centralised authorities
    They usually hide under the guise of representative democracy(elected dictatorship) and state capitalism.
    State capitalism has various different meanings, but is usually described as a society wherein the productive forces are controlled and directed by the state in a capitalist manner, even if such a state calls itself socialist. Corporatized state agencies and states that own controlling shares of publicly-listed firms, and thus acting as a capitalist itself, are two examples of state capitalism
    This is not a new political idea
    Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.
    Benito Mussolini, fascist dictator of Italy (1922-1943)
    Welcome to 21st century Fascism 2.0 lite version.So its no suprise that the Western representative democraies are backing Neo-Nazis!
    We solve this issue ,we solve the roots of most of the worlds global problems.
    Direct Democracy would be a very good start.
    Unfortunately NO polition will champion this cause ,as it would mean less power and possible jail sentences for most politions!
    Imagine if the USA had pumped 5 billion dollars into the Ukraine promoting Direct Democracy instead of Neo-Nazis ,state capitalsim and elected dictatorship!
    …but Craig maybe this is your chance to shine!
    do you disagree with Direct Democracy(True Deomcracy) and prefer representative democracy(Elected Dictatorship)?
    But then YOU have to take responsibility for its actions,even when its not your choice of leader!!
    It means accepting leaders like Putin and Cameron and Obama and Bush and Blair etc etc etc
    so YOUR lambasting of Putin is a bit hypocritical and nonsensical, unless you are trying to say there is something racial or cultural in Russia that makes them vote for monsters ,while British voters vote for gentlemen!?!?!?
    I do not accept any of them as my leader!
    I would like a Direct Democracy Independent Scotland
    As I do not think representative democracy is worth the wealth theft ,police state ,paedophilia and war crimes!

  35. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 12:09 am

    “For the sake of humanity, can we please stop quoting RT as a source for at least as long as dust over Crimea sets? Is not it obvious that this is one of the major channels of official Russian propaganda to the western audience?”

    Do you think we don’t know that RT is Russian state media?

    There is nothing wrong with quoting any news outlet if what is quoted can be checked out. If posters give a link to RT it is better than not giving a link at all, which is your modus operandi.

  36. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:11 pm

    Notice how anti-Israeli comments slowly making their way to this thread.

    One left wondering what Israel has to do with Russian Anschluss of Crimea. But why would MAD western lefties care?

  37. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:23 pm

    doug scorgie

    How do you actually test the information you get from RT? Do you go to Crimea or to Kiev or Moscow and literally speak to the people? Did you ask putin if the 15.000 armed men are or not in fact on Russian Ministry of Defence payroll? Did you ask Yatcenuk if he has any sympathies to right wing Ukrainian nationalists?

    Or did you just verify RT propaganda against another source of pro-putin propaganda?

    Following your logic, next time US troops gathered somewhere outside of their military base location for any purpose, I have your blessing to quote CNN. Do I?

  38. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:38 pm

    John Goss

    You sound (read) like MAD leftie on this blog, particularly on the threads regarding recent events with Russian Occupation of Ukraine. I just said it as it is. People like you cared less for millions of dead in Soviet Union and China than about portraying false workers paradise who which they have been introduced during their short and selective visit to both Russia and China. I see something of that people in your comments. In your blind denial of evil of putinism and his promotion of Russian Chauvinism.

    With regards to Bible, you did not point to my mistake. I was aware of Jesus quotation but quoting Bible as source? Come on. Are you serious? Quotation of Lenin in contrary have documented evidence and has been said many times by the author publicly. I am sure if you google Lenin’s public speeches you will come across few.

    I am not claiming that you supporting Andijan massacre, I am claiming that by denial of freedom to people of Ukraine and right to remove corrupt and oppressive president (something we have been having for the last 25 years in Uzbekistan) you by PROXY support Karimov in his brutal suppression of Andijan massacre. Your claims of legitimacy of Yanukovich could easily be mirrored to support legitimacy of Karimov.

    And for conclusion, I DO NOT believe in Torture. How could you say this to me? I have been claiming many times in the past on this very blog why I am in the UK. You have your STUPIDITY enough to brand me torture supporter? What an insult. And I am not MI5,6,7 (or any other number) agent.

  39. O/T but Jimmy Mubenga had no human rights.

    Charge Teresa May with manslaughter too. She had been in charge since May of that year. Damian Green was her Minister for Immigration at the time. Charge him too.

    G4S should have been charged with corporate manslaughter.

    PS I see May has just launched a new cutter. I bet she enjoyed the experience.

  40. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    19 Mar, 2014 – 4:27 pm

    “…and don’t try to reply seriously to someone who’s not serious and is just fooling around.”

    More irony!

  41. Uzbek in the UK
    19 Mar, 2014 – 5:17 pm

    doug scorgie
    “Do your own reading. Nobody provided me references when I wanted to learn something.”

    Uzbek, you make statements as if they are fact without any references to back-up what you say.

    How do you think other posters here can check that what you say is true if you don’t provide links or references?

    Are we to accept that if Uzbek says something it must be true?

  42. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 12:44 am

    “Why did you call me stupid? Just because I disagree with you and do not sing God Bless Mr Putin?”

    Sometimes Uzbek you sound just like Habbabkuk.

  43. doug scorgie

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:04 pm

    Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 11:26 am

    “Mr Murray
    “It was actually Lenin who first said that who are not with us is against us.”

    Now Uzbek you have the chance to back-up what you claim by telling us where you sourced the above claim.

    References please.

  44. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:09 pm

    John Goss

    I read your article now. As I expected you used appalling Human Right record and crimes of Karimov in Uzbekistan to support your anti-Zionist and anti-western propaganda arguments.

    While it is true that after 9/11 Karimov became close ally of GWB and TB and 2 latter turned their blind eye on many of karimov’s crimes (for which I many times stated my hatred towards these 2 and also Jack Straw after what he did to Mr Murray). BUT you FAILED to even mention that in May 2005 couple days after the Andijan Massacre karimov went to Moscow and it was putin who SUPPORTED karimov this time.

    In fact I failed to mention it earlier but in addition to Lavrov’s hypocrisy (which Mr Murray mentioned in his earlier thread) I have at least ONE more. It was Lavrov who announced to the world that karimov dealt with attempt of overthrowing Uzbek government by terrorists. He was LYING that time. He knew for sure that there were MANY women and children amongst the people who were still being buried at the time of Lavro’s hypocratic speech. Russia still have excellent intelligence agenture in former soviet union. I hope that documents will come to light (may be after fall of putin’s cleptocratic regime) showing that Russian intelligence reported that karimov shot mostly unarmed people many of whom were women and children.

    Now WHY is your article SO BIASED?

  45. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:11 pm

    doug scorgie

    Use google mate. You have computer and internet, do not you? Alternative could be buying ticket to Moscow and ordering access to the Kremlin archive. Googel is still cheaper and more convenient I guess.

  46. “Uzbek in the UK, 20 Mar, 2014 – 11:26 am

    Mr Murray

    It was actually Lenin who first said that who are not with us is against us.”

    Does that sound like someone who was aware of the biblical quote?

    The one who believes in torture knows who he is. The sock-puppet(s) know who they are. I did not say you believed in torture, rather that if you continued insulting me with slurs like MAD leftie I would treat you like them by ignoring your comments. If you do not agree with my views, argue against them, using facts. If you convince me I will change my views. But do not make unsubstantiated statements based on your personal experiences of one former USSR and later satellite Russian state. You have a view of Putin and the current Russian government based on those experiences. You refer to your reading but never give a source. I’m sorry. This simply makes you look like a self-opinionated bigot.

  47. doug scorgie

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:15 pm

    Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 12:11 pm

    “Notice how anti-Israeli comments slowly making their way to this thread.”

    Direct question Uzbek: are you a Zionist?

  48. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:20 pm

    doug scorgie

    This is not university research committee. I am not publishing my dissertation or essay on this blog. I am sharing my views on the topics raised by Mr Murray. I am also annoyed and angry that many here (including you) are so limited by their cliché that they fail to see tragedies behind cheap but persistent putin propaganda.

    For the sake of proving me wrong please read about Russian/Ukrainian/Central Asian history first before making biased comments. Your MAD leftie cliché and absence of knowledge about long and troublesome history of Russia and its colonies make you sound stupid.

  49. Uzbek in the UK, 20 Mar, 2014 – 1:09 pm

    You’ve done it again. First let me say I did not know that Karimov visited (was called perhaps?) to Russia two days after the Andijan massacre, or what was said between the two. Please supply the source and perhaps I can use it in the future.

  50. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:23 pm

    doug scorgie

    “Direct question Uzbek: are you a Zionist?”

    Not at all. But after YOU white Europeans did to Jews I believe that they have right to establish their own statehood. Not at the expense of Arabs. Like Mr Murray I believe that both Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel.

  51. Deconstructing Centralised Authority
    Representative Democracy in the East or West,
    represents democracy in the same way a transvestite represents a woman!
    what sort of people are attracted to representative democracies?
    Using his law enforcement experience and data drawn from the FBI’s behavioral analysis unit, Jim Kouri has collected a series of personality traits common to a couple of professions.
    Kouri, who’s a vice president of the National Assn. of Chiefs of Police, has assembled traits such as superficial charm, an exaggerated sense of self-worth, glibness, lying, lack of remorse and manipulation of others.
    These traits, Kouri points out in his analysis, are common to psychopathic serial killers.
    But these traits are also common to politicians.
    Our elected officials often show many of the exact same character traits as criminal nut-jobs, who run from police but not for office.
    Kouri notes that these criminals are psychologically capable of committing their dirty deeds free of any concern for social, moral or legal consequences and with absolutely no remorse.
    “This allows them to do what they want, whenever they want,” he wrote. “Ironically, these same traits exist in men and women who are drawn to high-profile and powerful positions in society including political officeholders.”
    This monsters are attracted to centralised power in the East or the West!
    What are the results of centralised authorities and respresentative democracies
    Democide is a term revived and redefined by the political scientist R. J. Rummel as “the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder.” Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the inflictions of people working for governments than have died in battle
    Albert Einstein: “A Foolish Faith In Authority Is The Worst Enemy Of The Truth”
    Centralised governments lie and kill and steal!
    Anybody who SERIOUSLY studies this situation comes to the same and OBVIOUS conclusion
    Police Intelligence Analyst Fired For Saying 9/11 And 7/7 Look Like Inside Jobs
    UK Police Intel Expert: Government, Not Islam, Real Terror Threat
    Tony found that he could only conclude that the official 7/7 narrative was ‘a monstrous lie.’
    Instead of the official ‘suicide bombers’ narrative, which he and all of his colleagues had believed without question, he realised that the weight of evidence strongly points far more towards 7/7 being an event stage-managed by British intelligence than anything else.
    On July 8th he handed over a very short version of the ‘Strategic Assessment Matrix,’ which averred that the real terrorist ‘threat’ to society was almost entirely of the state-sponsored kind, and it alluded to both 9/11 and 7/7 in this context. Other threats from other ‘domains of criminality’ were, his brief report claimed, ‘insignificant’ by comparison
    By Nick Kollerstrom
    July 12, 2011
    they also cannot run an economy!
    Rank Country CAB USD, bn
    1 People’s Republic of China 371.833
    2 Germany 252.501
    3 Japan 210.967
    4 Saudi Arabia 95.762
    5 Russia 76.163
    6 Switzerland 70.797
    7 Norway 59.983
    8 Netherlands 52.522
    176 Greece -44.218
    177 Italy -52.725
    178 Australia -56.342
    179 United Kingdom -105.224
    180 Spain -145.141
    181 United States -731.214
    This is a list of countries and territories by current account balance (CAB), based on the International Monetary Fund data for 2007, obtained from the latest World Economic Outlook database (October 2008).
    its not that difficult , so you see we do not need the brightest and the best.
    1.Availability of credit allows money to flow between savers and borrowers.
    2.Resources and funds are allocated to various projects or investments during a boom phase.
    3.Eventually borrowing becomes excessive and leads to malinvestment,
    4.At this stage, adherence to free market theory would allow for an efficient cleansing period and a healthy recovery period. How? Irresponsible and unprofitable businesses fail. Bad debts get liquidated. Excess resources go on sale, flow into more stable ventures and pool together with more profitable resources controlled by healthy corporations or entities
    Belgium without a government for 2 years economically outpreformed the rest of Europe…including Switzerland!!
    The 2nd LAW of Thermodynamics clearly states the more you impose law ,the more you accelerate chaos.
    A centralised authority imposing social laws can only create social chaos!
    There is a law against murder ,how is that going?
    OR today is the centralised authority training our youth to murder without thought or consequence? (its called joining the armed forces)
    Who was responsible for starting WWII?
    “Should Germany merchandise (do business) again in the next 50 years we have led this war (WW1) in vain.” – Winston Churchill in The Times (1919)
    “We will force this war upon Hitler, if he wants it or not.” – Winston Churchill (1936 broadcast)
    “Germany becomes too powerful. We have to crush it.” – Winston Churchill (November 1936 speaking to US – General Robert E. Wood)
    “This war is an English war and its goal is the destruction of Germany.” – Winston Churchill (- Autumn 1939 broadcast)
    Enjoy your freedom peasants!!
    Remember to pay your taxes and fight thier wars!!

  52. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:37 pm

    John Goss

    You see what your LIMITED knowledge does to you. Should not you have research problem more carefully before publishing your article? Andijan Massacre may mean LITTLE to MAD lefties but it means A LOT for Uzbeks.

    Lavrov’s speech. Here is the source in Russian Published on 2nd June 2005. Use google translate.

    Karimov’s visit to Kremlin after Andijan massacre also in Russian

    Here is another Russian source

  53. Uzbek in the UK; I think what you’re seeing is a reaction. I grew up under Cold War propaganda. I didn’t take much notice of the news; as a child, I called it “the nasty old news”. But somehow it worked its magic. I knew that the Sun never shone in “Russia” (ie. the USSR). I knew that people were perpetually miserable there, everyone wore the same uniform, endlessly watched missile parades, and no one ever smiled, because there was nothing to be happy about.

    In the early ’90s I started to meet some real Russians who had come to Britain. They were just ordinary people, with stories of family life and work and love. The caricature of Russians as broken people robbed of all humanity by an overpowering system was broken, and I started to learn some surprising things. They’d gone swimming a lot, because there was no charge to use the municipal baths. They’d had to share telephones, but there were no telephone bills. No one expected to be unemployed. So it had turned out that there had been a genuinely communal side to “communism”, which for me had just been a word for intense oppression.

    Please note that I am not arguing against the USSR and Russia’s poor human rights, but the picture I’d been presented with by the media was hopelessly biased, leaving my mind with no truer image to fill the large gap left by what had been discredited. Speculation fills such voids, and the pro-capitalist propaganda continues, inciting reaction against it.

    Uzbek, I missed something on the threads. Is MAD an acronym? What does it stand for?

  54. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:45 pm

    John Goss

    I said that Lenin said it first (and I still convinced that he was the first) because I DO NOT believe that texts in Bible reflect historical facts. In fact historians nowadays argue about many of the texts in Bible that were given to the Christians as undisputable truth for centuries. Do you want links for this too? Come on do your research.

    Can you argue with the fact that someone who experienced oppression and unfair treatment from another will always (or at least for a long time) will have fear of that another? I suppose Iraqis will have for long time fear, distrust or hate towards Anglo Saxons. And would you argue with the fact that many Iraqis would now MUCH BETTER the EVIL of US/UK? Or would you still claim that John Goss whose arse is firmly on chair in (I suppose) comfortable British town knows better than Iraqis what US/UK did to them?

  55. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:47 pm

    Mr Goss’s Doctrine, neatly set out by the Tovarish himself:

    “Now if you keep hounding me because I do not share your vision about western democracies I will ignore you, as I ignore those who believe in torture, and the sock-puppets. Have you signed up to MI5 or something?”

    Characterised by

    1/. the slur (MI5)

    2/. the laughable misrepresentation (“hounding me”..because “I do not share your vision”)

    3. the cop-out (I can’t meet your arguments, therefore I will, on the basis of a trumped-up charge, no longer engage with you.


    “Life is getting better, life is getting merrier!” (J. Stalin, ca. 1932)

  56. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:50 pm


    “Notice how anti-Israeli comments slowly making their way to this thread.”

    You’re not surprised, surely? It was only a matter of time, since the two great themes of the Excellences on this blog are

    1/. anti-Westernism

    2/. anti-Israelism and a barely concealed anti-Jewishness.

  57. Uzbek in the UK, my generation in the UK was not encouraged to know very much about Russia/USSR, beyond it being a dangerous inhuman enemy poised to destroy us with nuclear weapons which would be there forever. Similarly, the media repeatedly made big efforts to convince us of the insane inhumanity of the leader(s) of whichever country our politicians were about have their next war with. That never included Russia/USSR (thank God). There has never been much consciousness of the real situation in Russia.

  58. doug scorgie

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:54 pm

    Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 1:23 pm

    “I believe that both Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel.”

    Thank you, but is your support for a two state solution or a single state solution?

  59. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:56 pm

    Doug Scorgie (to Uzbek)

    “How do you think other posters here can check that what you say is true if you don’t provide links or references?”

    Which implies that you think that everything is true provided it’s from or backed up by a link.

    Newsjunkiepost? Counterpunch?

    I give you this, you do have a sense of humour! :)

  60. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 2:03 pm


    “Uzbek in the UK, my generation in the UK was not encouraged to know very much about Russia/USSR, beyond it being a dangerous inhuman enemy poised to destroy us with nuclear weapons”

    Sounds very much like your excuse for being one of the useful idiots. It’s not my fault, boo hoo, they suppressed the information about how wonderful lofe in the Soviet Union really was!

    The Eastern Europeans can tell you all about Russia/Soviet Union.

  61. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 2:06 pm

    Mr Scorgie to Uzbek

    “Thank you, but is your support for a two state solution or a single state solution?”

    Once he’s told you, will you tell which of the two YOU support?

    Thank you.

  62. Спасибо, Mister Goss. My favorite, most subversive part of the UDHR is

    “every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms”

    because if Americans took in this web page, the US deep state would grind to a halt.

    It’s more sensitive and secret than anything Snowden took. In the US this stuff is strictly for elites, like in the USSR where only the nomenklatura could read 1984. The young US elites that manage to learn of human rights, usually in an International Baccalaureate, immediately get shipped off to Hotchkiss and Harvard or Yale or Johns Hopkins, where they’re taught it’s a stick to beat enemy nations. Lawyers are carefully indoctrinated not to think of human rights as domestic law: it’s “non-self executing” (just a runaround, it’s binding anyway); “the constitution covers all those rights” (obsolete shit dreamed up by slavers and now revoked – right, that’s all you need.)

    Putin was a rising star when the Helsinki Final Act dissolved his totalitarian state, and now it’s payback time.

  63. Habbabkuk, I do not believe that there is much anti-Jewishness in this comment sections, though I agree that there is some. There is much suspicion that Jewish connections and influence are often pro-Israeli, and thus pro Israel expansionism, pro Israeli apartheid and supportive of Israeli racist murder and human rights abuses. Undoubtedly such influence exists, but it is not explicitly displayed, thus encouraging speculation as to its extent. I have such worries myself, the extent of Murdoch’s influence being just one example.

    But subtract the problem of Israel, and I’m convinced that the vast majority of what you perceive as “anti-Jewishness” would simply evaporate.

  64. Habbabkuk, 2:03 pm: do you think that the people you argue against here are evil and/or inhuman?

  65. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 1:23 pm

    “I believe that both Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel.”

    But as the Israeli State does not practice this, you presumably must agree with the highlighting of & criticism of exactly this when it is posted here ?

    BTW how goes the Jewish myth of Jews being the superior “Chosen People” rate your assessment of the Israeli State history of military aggression against its neighbours ? It this not a sort of chauvinism that you say that is inherent with Russians ?

  66. Ignoring the bigger and more serious picture, looking at this purely from a gay sub-culture point of view, some of these uniformed shaven Ukranian lads, whether they be far right or whatever political labels they claim or are given, are quite cute. It’s a wonder ‘the West’ hasn’t found a gay angle to this with which to bash Russia or Putin.

    Mad-leftie anti-zionists of the world unite. This thread has deteriorated somewhat since the routine, ever recurring and totally spurious claims of “anti-Israeli comments” being made were made. I for one have noticed a steady onslaught of anti-anti-Zionist comments pervading these comments for a considerable time (years actually). No-one has mentioned the zionist terrorist state of Israel except for those tireless tiresome anti-anti-zionists who daily scale new heights of hypocrisy and selective memory in defending this gruesome cult. Feeling left out in the cold as they’re not centre stage the zionist troll cadre must and are introducing the subject themselves, whilst attempting to police others comments, as ever. Legitimate and deserved, even scathing and bitter criticism of Israel’s state sanctioned crimes of genocide and exposing its band of willing idiot Israel-firster drones for their breathtaking gall. Such exceptionalism, such presumption of impunity from the ghastliest bloodiest crimes as found in the Israeli case is shared by the UK and US governing oligarchical elites and unsurprisingly all three are the subject of these same noisome trolls’ mendacious ostentatious sickly devotion.

    They hang together, they’ll hang together.

  67. tarpit 20 Mar, 2014 – 2:10 pm

    Thank you too. Yes, I believe it that those exclusive universities teach that these rights (UDHR) are to make sure foreign countries toe the line. Same in the UK I’m afraid. Here it starts a lot earlier, maybe even at prep-school but certainly by Eton, Rugby or Harrow. Such privileged children are taught they are different from us, and born to rule. Unfortunately it turns out to be true.

  68. Uzbek, cannot find in your links where Karimov visited Russia and spoke to Putin on May 15 2005. Can you point me please to the exact text.

  69. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 2:57 pm


    “Habbabkuk, 2:03 pm: do you think that the people you argue against here are evil and/or inhuman?”

    To do so would be to overstate their importance, I think. I’d only start asking myself those questions about people who actually DO, or are in a position to DO rather than just foam at the mouth. As far as the mouth foamers are concerned, it’s a kinder – and more constructive – use of my time and energy to offer them a metaphorical Kleenex tissue rather than to speculate about whether they’re evil and/or inhuman.

    I do of course have my opinions about them and also about what probably makes them tick. But I’m sure you know what those opinions are from my posts.

  70. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 2:59 pm

    Tony M

    “It’s a wonder ‘the West’ hasn’t found a gay angle to this with which to bash Russia or Putin.”

    Heaven forbid, Tony! There’s enough gay-bashing going on already in rasPutin’s Russia!

  71. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:10 pm

    Macky and doug scorgie

    I realise that you are trying to subvert this thread to anti-Israeli rant. Before I go any further on Israel.

    Can I please have your opinion on whether or not you trust historical evidence to support claims of Holocaust?

  72. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:12 pm


    More concretely.

    “Habbabkuk, I do not believe that there is much anti-Jewishness in this comment sections, though I agree that there is some.”

    I’m gratified to see that you’re progressing. It will get you into trouble on here if you’re not careful (cf the stick Craig’s got over the last few threads)?

    “There is much suspicion that Jewish connections and influence are often pro-Israeli, and thus pro Israel expansionism, pro Israeli apartheid and supportive of Israeli racist murder and human rights abuses.”

    I hear what you say. Would you say that Mary recently posting a photo of Theresa May on the arm of a British Jew called Jonathan Something or other at some reception illustrates that suspicion you refer to? Or if not, what do you think its purpose was?

  73. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:13 pm

    John Goss

    I realise that in my post I said couple of days instead of couple of weeks which I meant to say. Karimov was actually recovering from after shock and getting rid of evidence of his bloody actions in the few days after the Andijan massacre.

    But does it really matter when exactly karimov visited Moscow? He did few weeks after killing hundreds of people (women and children) got full backing of putin and you HAVE NOT even mentioned this in your article.

  74. Ba'al Zevul (Such a Parcel of Rogues)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:14 pm

    ‘Habbabkuk, 2:03 pm: do you think that the people you argue against here are evil and/or inhuman?’

    But you haven’t yet noticed. He very rarely argues against anyone. His posts are blatantly designed to irritate rather than either inform or debate.

  75. Habbabkuk, in a democracy, we’re all meant to be important.

    When people’s opinions fail to reflect reality, it becomes important to consider the ways in which their informational environment affect their cognition; none of us are independent of such influences.

    We are each part of that environment ourselves. By taking such a, sorry to say it, superior and confrontational approach, you encourage people to form a “camp” in opposition to yourself and your opinions; you cause the disagreement to harden.

    Now it may be that you’re aware of that, and your strategy may be to herd the opposition into a narrow corral, provoke them to an irrational unity, and then easily discredit them. But in the long run it is self-defeating, unless there are death camps to send them to, and even governments which do that tend not to last very long.

    If you’d rather win hearts and minds, then providing gentler, more compassionate and more understanding education will prove the surer course. Remember, in a democracy, we’re all important.

  76. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:32 pm


    MAD (which I unfortunately use quite often on this blog) is not abbreviation. The word as it is described in Oxford dictionary says that “chiefly British (Of behaviour or an idea) extremely foolish; not sensible:”.

    In 21 century of internet and various books available online and various archived materials also available online, it is no excuse for someone to state that limited knowledge exists due to the Iron Curtain that had fallen over 20 years ago. Read now, enrich your knowledge.

    I was actually one who lived behind Iron Curtain. My knowledge of the west (at that time) was as limited as yours of the USSR. It did NOT prevent me from learning English, reading and having better understanding of the history, culture, economy and politics of the west. I am NOT the best expert. In fact I do not even claim to be an expert of the western history etc, but I know for sure MORE THAN YOU and MANY others on this blog about EVIL of Russian Empire, USSR and revanchism of these horrible policies by current Russian president.

  77. Habbabkuk, 3:12 pm, yes, I do think that, though I don’t see it as limited to Jews and Jewishness. I’ve commented before that Mary’s comments about the political social whirlwind serve to illustrate what a small, insular group influential people constitute, and I linked to an article about how a person’s social group primarily determines their outlook on life, by constantly reinforcing their opinions.

    This, incidentally, is why I consider this comment section so important. We get an unusually diverse range of contributors here, and I expect that the readership is also diverse. It cuts across political allegiance, social groups and economic strata, exposing people to the unfamiliar. And that is why I’d like you to participate in a more friendly, respectful and compassionate manner rather than getting people’s backs up <3

  78. Here’s a blast from the past.

    Malcolm Fraser, former Australian Liberal (Conservative) PM, tells the truth about US hegemony.

    He should know. He was involved in the palace coup against sitting Labour PM Gough Whitlam back in the 1970s, when Whitlam tried to undermine relations between Australian and US spooks, which we now know as Five Eyes.

    This was part of the early enabling measures of neoconism, which took place in Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand and the US too, of course.

    He’s not happy with how it all turned out, but then, who is.

    “US thinks it’s superior, rules only apply to inferior nations”

    Seems like Goughie was right, and remember these guys come from a time when western politicians had a bit more substance about them, not the teenagers we have today.

  79. Clark

    Why do you assume habby’s a democrat.

    Surely everything about habby’s posts suggest elitism.

  80. I think Putin is ignoring the logical inconsistency in his argument, because the US/UK have set the precedent for this. He’s kind of saying, “If it’s OK for you to play Empire then why not us?” I find this – in the context of the Geopolitical Hegemonic game Western pressure is forcing Putin to play – entirely understandable. It’s Mafia Rules, plain and simple.

    It occurs to me that Putin doesn’t care what the Western Media and leaders think, because of their hypocrisy. He knows he is going to be demonised no matter what, so he’ll do what he wants to do anyway. Moral judgement of his actions is another question, but if we’re talking about basic Russian Pragmatism here, well I think that’s the result we’ve got.

    The West have been pushing at Russia’s Borders for too long and Putin has drawn a line. Perhaps we should be thankful that the violent fanatics in Washington don’t yet appear to have direct opposite numbers running things in Moscow, or we might have a little more to worry about right now.

    It’s easy for us to sit here in our cushy Western lives and judge, but in the context of the Global Imperial Death Match that all the major powers and everyone else plays to some extent, Putin has managed to do this – so far – without a great deal of bloodshed.

  81. Uzbek in the UK; “Can I please have your opinion on whether or not you trust historical evidence to support claims of Holocaust?”

    Let’s be generous and assume that this is not a pretty low & quite a disgusting attempt to smear me as a Holocaust denier, as it’s not all relevant to what we were discussing, so anyhow the answer is I do indeed trust the historical evidence to support claims of Holocaust.

    So feel free to now proceed with our conversation.

  82. Uzbek in the UK, I’d like to send you good wishes. I haven’t been keeping up with all the conversation here, but I’ve often seen your comments, trying to convince people of Putin and Russian dominance. Good, well done, I’m glad you’re doing it. I know what it’s like to argue against many people at once in a comment section like this one; it is hard work, people falsely identify you as some kind of enemy, or a stooge spreading propaganda for some vested interest. You’re doing very well.

    But most of your opponents are not mad. They are merely ignorant, and for any individual, subjects of which we are ignorant greatly outnumber subjects about which we are not. I agree that they should learn more, and be less sure of their positions, but people’s time is always limited. I ask you to remember that Russia/USSR was presented here as “the enemy” for the wrong reasons in an unfair manner, and I wish you patience while the reaction to propaganda works its way out.

  83. Uzbek in the UK, 20 Mar, 2014 – 3:13 pm

    If I am going to put something in an article I need to have the facts. First of all the meeting was not 2 days or even 2 weeks later, it was a month and a half later. From what I understand from the Alexander Gabuyev article Karimov and Putin held their talks in camera but at the press conference Putin did not support Karimov’s claim about western and US influence, believing instead from Russia’s own intelligence that there was intervention from Afghanistan.

    “Мы очень сопереживали тому, что происходило в Узбекистане, и удовлетворены, что удалось взять ситуацию под контроль”,- многозначительно сказал Владимир Путин. Он подтвердил факт участия внешних сил, однако не стал развивать тезис Ислама Каримова о влиянии Запада и США, а пошел в другую сторону: “У нас была информация об инфильтрации боевиков из Афганистана, это наши спецслужбы подтверждают”. После этого оба президента удалились на закрытые переговоры.

    I’m afraid Uzbek you are going to have to write this article yourself. I should like to read it.

  84. Dmitry Orlov talks US collapse and Ukraine

  85. Thanks Herbie. I share practically all Dmitry Orlov’s views, about the collapse of the US economy, about the unity of the Ukrainian and Russian armies, and about the unsustainability of the thugs in government under Yatsenyuk.

  86. Putin’s recitation of blindingly obvious facts seems to have tapped a vein of seething popular resentment. Here a reformed US Cold Warrior describes the speech as a manifesto of everything (reading a bit much into it, IMO,) and gets a global chorus of acclamation in comments,

    The whole world hates the US government. People worldwide hate the US government, pity its subject population and despise its satellite states. The US population, from right to left, incoherently loathes their regime.

    As one who was there when the USSR fell flat, I was struck by the intense public happiness among Soviet insiders, their joy in treason, the great curative puke of disgust that purged a parasitic regime. Now America is ripe for that. Putin doesn’t have to lead anybody. He can just stick a quick finger down America’s throat and stand aside.

  87. doug scorgie

    20 Mar, 2014 - 5:50 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    20 Mar, 2014 – 1:56 pm

    Doug Scorgie (to Uzbek):
    “How do you think other posters here can check that what you say is true if you don’t provide links or references?”

    Habbabkuk (to Doug Scorgie):
    “Which implies that you think that everything is true provided it’s from or backed up by a link.”

    A non-sequitur Habbakuk.

    иди в жопу

  88. Moscow strikes back against US officials – Banned from Russia

    1. Caroline Atkinson
    Deputy Assistant U.S. President
    National Security

    2. Daniel Pfeiffer
    Assistant to the U.S. President

    3. Benjamin Rhodes
    Assistant to the U.S. President

    4. Harry Reid
    The leader of the majority in the Senate
    U.S. Congress

    5. John Boehner
    Speaker of the House of Representatives
    U.S. Congress

    6. Robert Menendez
    Chairman of the Senate Committee on
    Foreign Affairs

    7. Mary Landrieu

    8. John McCain

    9. Daniel Coates

  89. Here’s an interesting speech from a Ukrainian MP from the south east of the country having a go at Svoboda …

    Here is the translation …

    ” Authorities are missing the boat. All of us must concentrate and give clear answer unless we want to lose both Crimea and Ukraine. How could we let that Crimea, “Ukraine’s gem”, an outlet to the sea, a strategic territory with such huge human and natural resources is being lost by us. Why is this happening? This is happening due to, among other reasons, sound compliance of people who live there and those people had been frightened by what had been happening in Kiev. What declamations were spoken, what statements were made? Unfortunately authorities are missing the boat again. Prime-minister has begun to address to the South and the East of Ukraine humanely only since yesterday and to explain them that russian language will not be abolished, that regions will acquire bigger sovereignty and citizens of these regions will be taken into account and will be respected. You may disagree and shout but I have just returned from Kharkov – the problem is that elderly people, 60+ y.o., want to join Russia. It is our problem and we are communicating with these people and informing them. Middle-aged people want russian language to become a state language and they want federalization and independence of a region (SE Ukraine). If you do not listen to them you will disintegrate the country, not we (Party of Regions) but you (Svoboda party). Visa non-free regime must not be invoked, you can call a persona non grata but people in eastern regions do work in Russia. You will hurt people who live in these regions first of all again. Do you, my friends and colleagues from Svoboda party, how you are called in Kharkov? You are called as “stars of the Kremlin”. You all, immediately after Putin’s speech, came to Panteleymonov (chief editor of first national TV of Ukraine) and did everything to cause harm on purpose (they forced him to resign). Killers? You are the killers! Moreover if authorities continue to miss the boat they will be remembered not as the ones who took the lead over Maidan but ones who were the true destructors of Ukraine. Concentrate! You…
    Suddenly her microphone deactivates…
    Some MPs are shouting “killers” in ukrainian…
    She continues: Military personnel in Crimea of all units still do not receive any adequate orders from superiors. Not from chief-commander, not from MoD. Do not miss the boat or you(Svoboda party) will lose Ukraine, we will also lose it (Party of Regions) but we will not let you forfeit Ukraine. Listen to the South-East!!! Do not miss the boat!!!”

  90. @ Orwellian at 4.02pm.

    I’m sure you’re right about Putin not caring about Western media or politicos. After all, I don’t; why should he?

    I was gobsmacked a week or two ago when I first heard Kerry start banging on about International Law and not changing borders by force. Whaaaaatt???? I couldn’t believe it. As if that wasn’t bad enough, they’ve been on about it ever since. Who believes this bollocks?

  91. Who believes this bollocks?

    The dumbest half or third of the population, distracted by porn and Pussy Riot, who believe, or rather lack the mental energy to disbelieve, whatever the media tell them. These are the dumbocrats who give superficial credibility to the pseudodemocratic plutocracy under which we now live.

  92. Resident Dissident

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:37 pm

    Perhaps in retaliation we should take over Chelsea FC!

  93. Technicolour (19 March – 10.14pm)

    Sorry for the delay in replying. I agree with those who argue that the term “cold war” was used by the US foreign policy establishment to pull the wool over the eyes of Americans and others by portraying US actions after WWII as essentially defensive in nature, with the leader of “the free world” bravely confronting a powerful, aggressive and implacable USSR bent on world conquest and domination. The evidence shows this was hogwash.

    The US emerged from WWII as the most powerful nation the world has ever known. As returning GIs settled into comfortable post-war prosperity, Washington used the rhetoric of war against a supposed new enemy to coopt the US media and academia, brainwash the population and intimidate (or arrest) critics who questioned official accounts of events.

    In reality, US policy was aimed at maintaining and extending its economic dominance by establishing a global network of military bases, demanding access to markets and securing access to resources by fair means or foul.

    Operating in secret much of the time, and killing opponents when necessary, it pursued these goals by financing political elites around the world and undermining their opponents, dictating the policies of international bodies such as the UN, World Bank and IMF, usurping European colonial control of “third-world” countries and “containing” (large) or invading (small) countries which refused to accept US suzerainty.

    These policies didn’t end when the “cold war” ended in 1989 (with the collapse of the Soviet Union) and they continue today. Ukraine is a good example.

    (The fact that Russia and China were run by ruthless totalitarian dictators doesn’t change the basic realities of post-war international relations, in my opinion, but it certainly helped US propagandists).

  94. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:45 pm

    John Goss

    What do you want me to provide you a secret Nixonian style tape confirming what putin told karimov behind closed doors?

    Since you are being so picky on the date of the visit I ask again does it really matter? 2 days, 2 weeks or 6 weeks?

    Karimov went to Kremlin to see putin as soon as he was able to leave Uzbekistan and as soon as Kremlin confirmed his acceptance. If you read little about Uzbekistan (and in fact you mentioned it in your article) until Andijan massacre Uzbekistan was US ally in war on terror. Kremlin and China both tried few times before to force US to leave K2 but Karimov only took final after Andijan massacre. Putin bought karimov’s farce (or putin might have advised karimov on how to actually make false claims, who knows) but facts remain facts. Karimov went to Kremlin soon after Andijan massacre and got putin’s backing.

    I will give you 3 quotes below judge for yourself.


    Showing that putin accepted karimov’s death toll account and supported karimov’s version that Afghan terrorists were involved in the upraising

    “Число погибших в Андижане оценивают по-разному. Независимые источники говорят о почти тысяче человек. По данным же генпрокуратуры Узбекистана, во время массовых беспорядков погибли 176 человек. Из них 79 – террористы, 45 – мирные жители, 20 – сотрудники правоохранительных органов, 11 военнослужащих. Во время андижанских событий были ранены 295 человек. Из них 62 – террористы, 47 – сотрудники правоохранительных органов, 35 – военнослужащие, 18 – мирные жители. Теперь, когда ситуация в республике взята под контроль, и об этом Каримов сообщил Путину, сделаны первые выводы. “Произошла инфильтрация боевиков из специально подготовленных баз на территории Афганистана” – таков вердикт и российской, и узбекской сторон. Впрочем, как сказал Владимир Путин, Россия знала об опасности, исходящей с афганской границы, и даже предупреждала об этом спецслужбы соседних государств. “У нас была такая информация, наши спецслужбы это подтверждали, но не знаю, насколько эта информация была вовремя до вас доведена”, – заявил Путин Каримову.”


    This is Michael Andersen account on death toll which contradicts to what karimov sold and Putin happily accepted.

    “Ведь один из самых важных вопросов об Андижане – сколько людей тогда погибло. Согласно официальной версии, 187 человек, причем, если верить словам Каримова, погибшие – это герои-солдаты и террористы. Свои подсчеты проводили и представители международных организаций, независимые эксперты, – и тогда говорили, что погибло минимум восемьсот, а может, и тысяча человек.
    Мы искали доказательства, разговаривали с очевидцами. И они показывали: вот там мой брат умер, там – сестра… И сразу становится понятно, что цифра в 180 человек, причем большинство – солдаты, – не соответствует действительности. Погибших гораздо больше. Мы разговаривали с врачом из Андижана – и она сказала, что своими глазами видела более 500 трупов. У нас есть копии документов из андижанского морга, и согласно этим бумагам, только в один день, 14 мая 2005 года, туда поступило 300 тел. Причем даже по документам причиной смерти было пулевое ранение. И это – яркое доказательство.”


    This is what happened 1 year after the Andijan Massacre. Please read it VERY carefully. It should open up your BLIND eyes on the real reasons of why putin was so happy to support karimov and buy all bull sh..t from him regarding murdered people.

    “Слабость узбекского президента на руку Москве. В России собираются извлечь из сложного положения среднеазиатского союзника экономическую выгоду. В последнее время в Ташкент зачастили высокопоставленные российские чиновники и топ-менеджеры госмонополий. В начале года с Исламом Каримовым встречался председатель правления “Газпрома” Алексей Миллер. Затем Ташкент посетил спикер Совета федерации Сергей Миронов. Переговоры в основном касались допуска российских компаний к разработке крупнейших узбекских газовых месторождений (Урга, Куаныш и группы Акчалакских), а также урановых и золоторудных рудников. На прошлой неделе господина Каримова навестил первый вице-премьер Дмитрий Медведев. Не исключено, что его задачей было окончательное согласование российско-узбекских энергетических договоренностей с тем, чтобы они были подписаны лидерами двух стран в ходе сегодняшней встречи.”

    “Нынешние переговоры Владимира Путина и Ислама Каримова пройдут накануне годовщины жестокого подавления волнений в Андижане 13 мая прошлого года. За год после расстрела войсками андижанского восстания власти Узбекистана полностью зачистили политическое и информационное поле в стране и уничтожили остатки оппозиции.

    Этот процесс проходил в несколько этапов. Первым делом узбекские власти постарались как можно скорее покончить с “андижанским делом”. Следствие и судебные процессы над “организаторами мятежа” прошли в рекордно короткие сроки. На процессах обвиняемые один за другим признавались в том, что состояли в экстремистском течении “Акрамия”, что хотели создать исламский халифат в Ферганской долине и готовили свой мятеж на американские деньги. Еще до Нового года за решеткой оказались более 160 человек.

    Покончив с “мятежниками”, власть взялась за правозащитников. Сначала за решетку отправились узбекские борцы за права человека, чья точка зрения по поводу событий в Андижане расходилась с официальной. Потом пришла очередь зарубежных некоммерческих организаций — Узбекистан уже завершает их выдавливание из страны. Заодно было зачищено информационное пространство. Узбекский МИД лишил аккредитации журналистов радио “Свобода”. А британская служба новостей “Би-Би-Си” сама закрыла офис в Ташкенте, заявив, что ее корреспонденты подвергаются преследованиям. Независимым узбекским журналистам повезло меньше, чем их зарубежным коллегам. Два месяца назад известную в Ташкенте правозащитницу и журналистку Мутабар Таджибаеву приговорили к восьми годам тюремного заключения.”

    “До событий в Андижане господин Каримов пытался играть на противоречиях внутри треугольника Китай—Запад—Россия. Являясь членом Шанхайской организации сотрудничества (ШОС) вместе с Россией и Китаем, Узбекистан старался быть верным партнером Запада: открывал у себя натовские базы, состоял в антироссийском ГУУАМе. После Андижана треугольник лишился одной из сторон. Зато Москва и Пекин стали проявлять к Узбекистану повышенный интерес. В первую очередь Китай и Россия стремятся взять под контроль узбекские энергоресурсы. Но судя по тому, что сегодня Ислам Каримов встречается в Сочи с президентом Путиным, а не в Пекине с председателем Ху Цзиньтао, Москве удалось перехватить инициативу и втянуть Ташкент в орбиту своего влияния.

    За истекший год Россия и Узбекистан значительно сблизились. Россия дала президенту Каримову беспрецедентные гарантии безопасности, и это стало началом большой дружбы Москвы и Ташкента. В марте Ислам Каримов подписал два важнейших документа: о присоединении к Евразийскому экономическому сообществу и Договор о союзнических отношениях Узбекистана и России. Последний предусматривает, что Москва готова вмешаться в кризисную ситуацию на территории Узбекистана, если режим окажется в опасности.

    Теперь Москве осталось вовлечь господина Каримова в деятельность еще одной пророссийской организации — Организации договора о коллективной безопасности (ОДКБ). На днях в Минске генсек ОДКБ Николай Бордюжа заявил, что организация готова плотно сотрудничать с Узбекистаном: “Если уже осуществляющиеся практические шаги выведут нас на новый уровень, то не исключена возможность вступления Ташкента в ОДКБ”. По информации Ъ, на нынешних переговорах с президентом Путиным Ислам Каримов подтвердит намерение включиться в деятельность ОДКБ и взамен будет просить о военно-технической помощи. Скорее всего, он ее получит. Узбекистан стратегически важен для Москвы по нескольким причинам. Контроль над этой страной поможет усилить российское влияние в граничащих с ней Киргизии и Таджикистане. А это усилит позиции России в ШОС: сколотив собственную команду из Ташкента, Бишкека и Душанбе, Москва сможет более уверенно разговаривать с сильным Пекином.”

    Now your what is left of your MAD leftie brain and THINK using your favourite realist approach on how putin benefited from rapprochement with Karimov and ASK yourself if he as good as you try to portrait him.

  95. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:48 pm

    This is the cream of the whole putin’s/karimov newly found friendship after Andijan Massacre Россия дала президенту Каримову беспрецедентные гарантии безопасности, и это стало началом большой дружбы Москвы и Ташкента.

  96. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:51 pm

    Resident Dissident

    BAD strategy. Take over Chelsea and pay all these Torres gang hundred millions from tax payers?

    Why not take over some of the luxury russian oligarch owned properties, sell them to (lets say) Chinese oligarchs and build council houses for that money?

  97. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:03 pm


    There is no question in that Russia has been holding Ukraine by balls for the last 7 centuries.

    I agree with that MP that Russian language must be returned official language status (like Ukrainian language) and that rights of Russian minority in Ukraine must be respected.

    But recognising all this you also should understand that it will be difficult to do for some as Russia keeps gun pointed at Kiev. It took Czechs and Poles decades to start having normal relations with Germans. Even Brits and French have had troubled relations with Germans, remember Adenauer visit to Paris? Many Indians, Pakistanis and even Chinese still hate British and many Arabs still hate Turks.

    In short term no doubt Ukraine will loose economically from breaking away from Russian hegemony (and this is providing that putin does not go further rampaging in Ukraine). But in long term Ukrainian economy needs modernisation that Russia is not capable to provide. Ukraine does not have similar oil and gas reserves like Russia, so Russian economic model is not applicable to it.

  98. Resident Dissident

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:05 pm


    You’re right we should just close them down. interesting that Putin sees confiscation of assets as a suitable punishment for those he dislikes.

  99. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:08 pm

    John Goss

    If you fished reading through these long quotations and before you started your brain work I just wanted to stress yet another point from the above quotations.

    “Узбекистан стратегически важен для Москвы по нескольким причинам. Контроль над этой страной поможет усилить российское влияние в граничащих с ней Киргизии и Таджикистане. А это усилит позиции России в ШОС: сколотив собственную команду из Ташкента, Бишкека и Душанбе, Москва сможет более уверенно разговаривать с сильным Пекином.

    Pure realism is not it? Who cares about hundred dead women and children massacred in Andijan when putin needed straighten his voice when talking to China.

  100. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:21 pm

    Resident Dissident

    It has always been in putin’s blood. In fact the first thing he did, even before he became president (as acting president since Yetsin’s resignation) is started to confiscate assets from russian oligarchs whom he felt threatening him. While Yeltsin employed (theoretically) Equal Distanced (Ravnoudalennuu) strategy (meaning that ever oligarch is equaly distanced from Kremlin), putin from first few months of his kremlin tenure started employing vertical of power strategy, meaning that he is at the top and everything (and everyone) else goes down bottom.

    When he was confident enough he confiscated or submitted to his control all media resources in Russia, putting an end to the free speech and diversity of opinions. All media resources started to urinate putin propaganda on Russian people and with establishment of RT to narrow minded, cliché limited MAD western lefties.

    Those who still opposed him (like Hodoskovski) or who criticised his policies (like Politkovskaya) have been dealt with KGB style. The latter as you know (since you referenced her earlier) was brutally murdered. I am interested how many MAD lefties here read her book Putin’s Russia?

  101. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:37 pm

    John Goss

    I now realise why do you support Orlov’s points of view.

    “The EU, the USA and their blasted mother don’t recognize the referendum, yet in Kiev most people accept it and care little or nothing about it.

    It’s incredible that [the referendum] is more accepted here than in the rest of the world. Why don’t they leave these people alone, may I ask?

    Military neighbors, friends, colleagues, consider [the referendum] legit and understand it and accept it. The world that gives opinions about these people, doesn’t. Strange.]”

    Can I check with Mr Orlov how many people in Kiev he had questioned on so called “referendum” matter?

  102. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 1:23 pm

    “I believe that both Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel.”

    But as the Israeli State does not practice this, you presumably must agree with the highlighting of & criticism of exactly this when it is posted here ?

    BTW how goes the Jewish myth of Jews being the superior “Chosen People” factor into the Israeli State’s history of military aggression against its neighbours ? It this not a sort of chauvinism that you say that is inherent with Russians & explains its history ?

  103. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:49 pm

    Mark Golding

    I personally think that it would be good if all US officials are banned from travelling to Russia, as well as all US companies, all US charities, all US journalists, all US educational programmes, all US citizens (never mind that around 1 million of them of Russian/soviet origin). And the same goes with respect to EU.

    Although I will miss Bolshoi and having coffee at Bulgakov’s favourite table, I am confident that Russia will survive with no western contacts. Just like China did under Mao.

    Lets roll on Cold War paranoia. God I missed those mystery times.

  104. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:53 pm


    I and my ancestors lived for over a century under Russian and not Jewish oppression and rule.

    I am confident I have better knowledge and can recognise more fully danger of Russian Chauvinism.

    Do you mind if I continue on commenting on what I am confident I know better and stop involving me into anti-Israeli conspiracy discussion?

    Ask Mr Murray to start another anti-Israeli thread and spit your bile there, please.

  105. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:56 pm

  106. Uzbek in the UK,

    Yes, I understand that nobody likes to be caught out on their inconsistencies, and irrational prejudices; I’m certain that the more discerning people who have followed your comments here, have already reached an accurate conclusion as to the type of person you are.

  107. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:12 pm


    I prefer to comment on what I know better. Do you mind? I am asking again.

    I have several times stated my reaction to Israeli and Zionists wrong doings to Arabs (on other threads on this very blog), but I trust other people (who either originally from there or have been researching these problems objectively and not from one source) know better. I prefer to read their comments, read more from other sources where I think they might be inaccurate or prejudiced and then make up my mind. Comparing to my knowledge of Russia and its former colonies my knowledge of Middle East is unfortunately VERY limited. So for now I would prefer not to get involved in hot discussion on the matter of which I know very little and which is equally important to some people as matters of Russian Chauvinism and Hegemony to me.

  108. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:24 pm

    Sofia Kibo Noh

    Interesting but one sided. Please read below. And pay attention to the bold and then please read my comments further below.

    “But in effect Gorbachev capitulated; the USSR was dismembered and, over the course of the 1990s, Russia itself came close to being destroyed and dismembered. Although in the West, where he is still a popular figure, Gorbachev is credited with orchestrating a peaceful dissolution of the USSR, the chaotic aftermath of the collapse of the USSR was an extremely traumatic event, with massive loss of life. When Putin calls the collapse of the USSR “the largest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” he echoes the feelings of many Russians — who, by the way, like to call Gorbachev “Mishka mécheny” (“Mickey the marked”— marked by the devil, that is.)”

    Really? Saying this and not even a word of acknowledgement of massiveness of loss of lives during soviet rule? Hello? Comparing this too loss of lives during Stalin and also comparing dissolution of Yugoslavia to dissolution of USSR authors of this prejudiced publication should be very thankful to Mishka mecheny for his wisdom not to execute more people, like Slobodan did.

    The second bold text is fascinating. I have never hear of this explanation of Gorbache’s birth mark. Something new I learn every day indeed. Just like Raspuntin was blamed to be Devils agent by monarchists to save their Niki II from responsibilities of huge wrong doings, this unique explanation of Gorbachev’s birthmark is fascinating to me. And also equally nonsensed.

  109. Uzbek in the UK

    But you gave the impression that you were an expert on “Chauvinism”, and how it explains the history of a country; are you now saying that you are an expert on something but only if it exists in a very specific narrow situation, otherwise you know nothing about it ?!!

  110. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:27 pm

    Sofia Kibo Noh

    Sorry something went wrong with bolding. My second bold was referring to “marked by devil”.

    [Bolding fixed – it’s “slash b”, no spaces]

  111. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:36 pm


    Chauvinism, although have something common (superiority over others) is actually very different indeed. To comment on Chauvinism one needs to study history of particular people/nation(s) very carefully and fully. My Claim of Russian Chauvinism is in fact product of my knowledge and first hand experience of it. I have never lived in Israel and my theoretical knowledge (as I have been saying again and again) is very limited. How would you expect me to comment anything about (as you proposed) Jewish chauvinism if I know almost nothing about it.

    Do you want then to point finger at me (like I have been doing to MAD western lefties) and expose my “ignorance” on this matter?

    I have actually been calling MAD western lefties to research Russian and its colonial history more carefully and more objectively before commenting on the recent development with Russian intervention to Ukraine. And here you want me to be antithesis to my own proposed thesis.

    Thank you. I am not that mad.

  112. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:37 pm

    Orlov writes that Putin is portrayed as a fiend, and the West acts baffled and scared. The feigned shock with which the West looks on at the developments in Crimea could be seen as a tactic designed to isolate and intimidate Vladimir Putin. The fact that this tactic is not only not working but actually backfiring changes feigned shock into real shock: Western meds aren’t working any more—on itself or anyone else.

    Let’s compare Putin’s rampage in Ukraine with the humanitarian intervention in Libia.
    How many tons of high explosives detonated?
    How many bodies?
    How many traumatised orphans?

    And the aftermath.
    Rule of Law?
    Functioning social, physical and political infrastructure?

    As time passes we’ll be able to draw some conclusions from measurable indexes like infant mortality, life expectancy and literacy levels. No prizes for any genius who guesses it right.

    The “Leaders of the Free World” may mouth fine words, but the fruits of their actions consistently seem to be more human misery than before.

    Maybe the West could try leaving other nations to solve their own problems and turn their attention to solving their own?

  113. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 12:04 am


    “The “Leaders of the Free World” may mouth fine words, but the fruits of their actions consistently seem to be more human misery than before”

    Is there no one who will defend Obama.?.. :) Biden? :(

  114. Uzbek in the UK

    I’m not asking you to furnish a academic multi-volumed dissertation on “Chauvinism & The Israeli Psyche” ! Instead, given the commonly accepted general dictionary definition of the word, which I trust you are familiar with, (otherwise you could not label the Russians as “chauvinists”), and because you made a comment that “Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel”, I am merely asking you if the Jewish belief of “Chooseness”, (just like the American notion of “Manifest Destiny”), can be considered as “chauvinistic” in your view ?

  115. Sofia Kibo Noh

    21 Mar, 2014 - 12:29 am


    I forgot Samantha Power. Here she is at the UN today.

    “The world is speaking out against the use of military threats and the use of force. Ukrainians must be allowed to determine their own destiny.”

    She managed to keep a straight face through it all. That’s what I call a class act!

    Goodnight all.

  116. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 12:59 am


    Obama has been disappointing because his strategy is 150 years old. Perhaps gems can be taken from the Past, but they we can also learn from cave painting; that doesn’t mean we swallow the flounder whole. Rather we should fillet and make a stock from the rest for a soup.

    Obama’s problem is that he studied Lincoln in a myopic trance which ‘blinded’ him from the necessity of context. This is not the 19th century.

    He’s made deals with too many to achieve his ‘good’ by purloining the quest for ‘perfect’, with rhetoric to attain power, then pursuing his own agenda of “Keeping your enemy Closer than your Friends’ again, culturally and morally obsequious behavior and thusly, more of the same.

    I think Capitalism is like Lincoln; good for it’s time, but now Obama and his Capitalistic supporters have had their time. Time to try something different.

  117. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 1:20 am

    Mark; When you get a chance. I was inspired to link to the RnR Hall of Fame performance wrt to Cream induction, and I thought of yerself. Ginger is muted (btw saw doc on him, (whatta guy!. His Iconoclasm is at least the equal of Hunter S. Thompson in another media)

    i thought Clapton disinterested, Jack was the best ever on this rendition. If you are within earshot; Enjoy!

  118. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 1:37 am

    Beware Mr. Baker is the doc if you aren’t aware Mark.

  119. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 2:09 am

    When the judy Miller paper of record pronounces, I get worried….

  120. Sofia Kibo Noh

    21 Mar, 2014 - 7:42 am


    Thanks for the Cream. Great guitars!

    As for the nyt. Do they ever do any homework?

    That is the same Navalny who said in 2012 on Ukrainian TV that “Russian foreign policy should be maximally directed at integration with Ukraine and Belarus… In fact, we’re one nation. We should enhance integration.”

    What a flexible mind!


  121. They are acting like primary school kids arguing over conkers.

    Ukraine Crisis: EU Sanctions For More Russians

    Twelve more people are now the subject of travel bans and asset freezes, as EU leaders prepare to sign a trade deal with Kiev.

  122. “Can I check with Mr Orlov how many people in Kiev he had questioned on so called “referendum” matter?”

    Well, Uzbek, you would have to check with him, not me. I probably have no more idea than you, unless you have questioned opinion there.

  123. This is likely to raise a few blood pressures. Just how has the western-backed coup backfired?

  124. One rule for one, another for another. More of US hypocrisy.

    US a no-show for UN talks on covert drone wars

    THE USA is refusing to participate in UN Human Rights Council talks about greater accountability for human rights violations in covert drone wars.

    Foreign Policy reporter Colum Lynch, who broke the story Wednesday, says the U.S. is opting out of discussions about a draft Pakistani resolution aimed at the U.S. drone strikes. Lynch explains:

    The Pakistani draft, which was obtained by Foreign Policy, urges states to “ensure transparency” in record-keeping on drone strikes and to “conduct prompt, independent and impartial investigations whenever there are indications of any violations to human rights caused by their use.” It also calls for the convening of “an interactive panel discussion” on the use of drones.

    During the third round of talks on Wednesday about the resolution, the United States was notably absent. The boycott marks a shift from President Obama’s decision in 2009 to join the Human Rights Council after years of U.S. boycott at the behest of former President George W. Bush.

    Yet, the move is in keeping with the Obama administration’s diligent refusal to share public information about those U.S. drone wars and those killed in the attacks. A “modest” initiative in the U.S. Senate that would have forced the U.S. government to publicly report and identify those killed by U.S. drone strikes overseas failed last November.

    While the Obama administration has repeatedly claimed that civilian deaths in drone strikes are minimal, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism documents alarming rates of civilian deaths by covert U.S. attacks in Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Furthermore, in a 21-page report released earlier this month, UN special rapporteur on human rights Ben Emmerson identifies drone strikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Gaza in which civilians were killed, injured, or threatened in drone attacks by the U.S. and close ally Israel.

    The U.S. still has not answered for numerous high-profile attacks, including a December 2013 U.S. drone strike on a recent wedding procession in Yemen near the city of Rad’a that left 12 people dead and at least 15 wounded.

    The boycott of the talks comes as the U.S. escalates its covert drone war in Yemen, with at least seven suspected strikes in the first two weeks of March.


    PS Why has Obama surrounded himself with these warlike harpies? Rice, Power, Nuland, Jones (in Oddie’s link) or did Shillary play a large part in the placements?

    I am ashamed to be of the same sex as them.

  125. A rarity, a MSM journalist speaking sense about the Russian/Ukraine situation & exposing Neil’s warmongering nonsense;

  126. @Mary
    “One rule for one, another for another. More of US hypocrisy.
    US a no-show for UN talks on covert drone wars
    THE USA is refusing to participate in UN Human Rights Council talks about greater accountability for human rights violations in covert drone wars.”

    “Representative Democracy”(elected dictatorship) IS A SYSTEM OF HYPOCRACY
    The Tweedle Dum Tweedle Dee mudslinging muppet show!
    Centralised Authority is an IRRESPONSIBLE political system!
    It may KILL us all!!
    Politions will take NO RESPONSIBILITY for THIER actions.
    Look at the illegal and immoral wars , the illegal and immoral bailout and the paedophilia rings that continue today without any polition being arrested!
    WE voted for them ,will be thier response. They act like dictators NOT servants!
    People like Craig,who support representative democracy, will take NO RESPONSIBLITIY for the actions of leaders THEY disagree with!?
    Even though they support the political system that gave us these very leaders?..time after time after time.
    If you think repeating the action will produce a different result ,YOU ARE CLINICALLY INSANE!!
    Craig also thinks that tweedle dee is less evil than Tweedle Dum because Tweedle Dum does bad things.
    The FACT that Tweedle Dee does exactly the same bad things does not seem to matter.
    It then must be that Tweedle Dum is not Western or supports his percieved version of Westerness that is the REAL problem!
    The centralised authority,East or West, sees itself as infalible and the people it is supposed to represent,as expendable.
    Eventually ,if not held accountable for its actions, the centralised authority will feed on the very people it claimed to protect.
    The bigger they are the less democratic they become.
    I admit after the end of WWII there was a huge backlash against churchill and his cronies which saw the birth of the NHS and big improvements for the common man.
    I claim this happened DISPITE the centralised government ,it was a humanitarian movement not a government idea(it started in the Highlands)…the centralised

    government was the cause of its failure ,and it did not stop the centralised authority from carrying out alot of nasty business across the globe at this time and it

    only took the old guard a few years via the centralised authority to get back into power and to continue business as usual.
    Power Mad Politions will be the death of us! A centralised social power structure just enables them.
    Direct Democracy and holding politions accountable is the only way to stop the system repeating.
    Political parties and mudslinging will change nothing…because political parties and mudslinging is the problem!
    Political parties and mudslinging is the political system,East or West!!
    ..and it just creates chaos and ill will!!
    Humanity needs to focus on bettering itself and others and stop listening to war mongering ,mudslinging,sabre rattling ,snake oil selling politions and thier lackies.
    We are better than that

    And Craig,just in case you are reading this, may I quote you was the quote that started me commenting on this issue!
    “The problem with people like you, Cuthulan, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Bush and Blair, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to
    support. ”

    No, Craig.
    The problem with people like you, Craig, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Putin, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support.
    ……in this case Neo Nazi war criminals!”

    Do you see what I mean now? Can YOU see your hypocracy?
    OR are you going to continue claiming thier are no Neo Nazis running this armed US financed insurrection in the Ukraine?
    …and continue to take NO RESPONSIBILITY for the actions of a political system YOU support!?!
    and continue just finger pointing at Tweedle dee?
    With representative democracy as the political system in East and West WHO DO YOU THINK WILL REPLACE HIM?
    Who will replace Cameron?…some benign Buddha like leader? …or just another corrupt power mad polition?
    Do you want to put some money on it?
    Come on guys WAKE UP!!!!
    It is just irresponsible and hypocritical at best!
    Its nonsense and its bullsh1t and it threatens the WHOLE OF LIFE ON EARTH!!!



  127. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 3:10 pm

    “Can I please have your opinion on whether or not you trust historical evidence to support claims of Holocaust?”

    I have no problems with the Holocaust history.

  128. @Doug, it turns out that there was no need to answer Uzbek’s question, it was obviously just a cheap & nasty smearing attempt.

  129. Vladimir Putin mocked Western sanctions on Friday morning, as David Cameron said the EU planned to cut Russia’s strangehold on Europe’s gas supply.

    Mr Putin was reported to have claimed he will open a bank account at a sanction-hit bank and joked he will steer clear of allies on a list of people facing sanctions as they are “compromising us.”

    Soon afterwards, UK prime minister Mr Cameron revealed he was very happy with measures that EU leaders had drawn up overnight.

    Among them was a pledge to reduce dependence on gas from Russia which currently accounts for 25% of all that used in the continent.

    He said gas from US shale beds, extracted by fracking, and other so-far untapped European sources will increasingly replace Russian supplies.


    As somebody else asked, was it all about making a market for US shale gas? Trouble is there is no suitable port on the East Coast!

  130. Former U.S. Ambassador: Behind Crimea Crisis, Russia Responding to Years of “Hostile” U.S. Policy

    AMY GOODMAN: To talk more about the growing crisis in Ukraine, we’re joined by Ambassador Jack Matlock. He served as U.S. ambassador to Moscow from 1987 to 1991. He’s the author of several books, including Reagan and Gorbachev: How the Cold War Ended. He recently wrote a column for The Washington Post headlined “The U.S. Has Treated Russia Like a Loser Since the End of the Cold War.”

    Ambassador Matlock, welcome to Democracy Now! Talk about the situation right now, what has just taken place, Ukraine now pulling out of Crimea.

    JACK MATLOCK JR.: Well, I think that this rhetoric on both sides is being very unhelpful. The fact is, Russia now has returned Crimea to Russia. It has been, most of its recent history, in the last couple of centuries, been Russian. The majority of the people are Russian. They clearly would prefer to be in Russia. And the bottom line is, we can argue ’til doomsday over who did what and why and who was the legal and who was not—I’m sure historians generations from now will still be arguing it—but the fact is, Russia now is not going to give up Crimea. The fact also is, if you really look at it dispassionately, Ukraine is better off without Crimea, because Ukraine is divided enough as it is. Their big problem is internal, in putting together disparate people who have been put together in that country. The distraction of Crimea, where most of the people did not want to be in Ukraine and ended up in Ukraine as a result of really almost a bureaucratic whim, is—was, I think, a real liability for Ukraine…

    …fundamentally, it’s going to be the Ukrainians who have to put their society back together. It is seriously broken now. And it seems to me they could take a leaf from the Finns, who have been very successful ever since World War II in putting together a country with both Finns and Swedes, by treating them equally, by being very respectful and careful about their relations with Russia, never getting into—anymore into military struggles or allowing foreign bases on their land. And they’ve been extremely successful. Why can’t the Ukrainians follow a policy of that sort? I think, for them, it would work, too. But first, they have to find a way to unite the disparate elements in Ukraine; otherwise, these pressures from Russia, on the one hand, and the West, on the other, is going to simply tear them apart.


  131. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 3:30 pm

    “He said gas from US shale beds, extracted by fracking, and other so-far untapped European sources will increasingly replace Russian supplies.”

    It’s a bluff, Mary. The US has only 2 CNG ports operational. They are playing ketchup with plans for many more, but this is gonna take years.

  132. Mod Ref

    I thought that there was a moderation policy of deleting personal, ad hominem type inflammatory comments.

    [ – done. Such comments are deleted when found.]

  133. The Ukrainian US stooge sits between David ‘Smoothface’ Cameron and the EU’s Rumpy Pumpy.

    EU seals closer ties with Ukraine
    Acting Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk: “This treaty shows Ukraine shares European values”

    The EU and Ukraine have signed an agreement forging closer economic ties, in a show of support following Russia’s annexation of Crimea.

  134. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 4:30 pm

    Mad Lefties! the below is for your information.

    “Boys from another school pulled out the severed head of a classmate while fishing in a pond. His whole family had died. Had they eaten him first? Or had he survived the deaths of his parents only to be killed by a cannibal? No one knew; but such questions were commonplace for the children of Ukraine in 1933. . . . Yet cannibalism was, sometimes, a victimless crime. Some mothers and fathers killed their children and ate them. … But other parents asked their children to make use of their own bodies if they passed away. More than one Ukrainian child had to tell a brother or sister: ‘Mother says that we should eat her if she dies.’ ”

    Timothy Snyder, “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin”

  135. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 4:41 pm


    Easy mate. Unlike some, I do not live on this blog.

    I support one state solution in Israeli-Palestinian conflict. State where both Jews and Arabs have equal rights and responsibilities.

  136. This is a fascinating read

    “How Cold War-Hungry Neocons Stage Managed RT Anchor Liz Wahl’s Resignation”

  137. Oh Uzbek in the UK, you’ve changed your mind about giving us the benefit of your views on this the following then;

    “I’m not asking you to furnish a academic multi-volumed dissertation on “Chauvinism & The Israeli Psyche” ! Instead, given the commonly accepted general dictionary definition of the word, which I trust you are familiar with, (otherwise you could not label the Russians as “chauvinists”), and because you made a comment that “Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel”, I am merely asking you if the Jewish belief of “Chooseness”, (just like the American notion of “Manifest Destiny”), can be considered as “chauvinistic” in your view ?”

  138. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 5:19 pm

    Speaking of neocons, Dre…(x-posted from other thread)

    I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking ‘misdirection’.

    “Then came an unexpected turn of events calling that story deeply into question. On March 7 Americans began to drown in a deluge of headlines pointing them thousands of miles from Ukraine, to Malaysia, where Flight 370 had inexplicably vanished.

    Ever since, the mystery of 370 has at least rivaled, and more often eclipsed, Ukraine in U.S. news headlines — even in our most respected elite news sources. Ten days after it disappeared, Flight 370 still held five of the top six spots on the New York Times website’s “most viewed” list, while Ukraine limped in at numbers 8 and 9. Over at the Washington Post site, the missing flight took two of the top four spots on “Post Most” (and an impending snowstorm held the other two). No sign of Ukraine at all.”

  139. Ben, Mary

    Yes the USA is still a net importer of natural gas.

    Several companies are planning to build liquefaction capacity to export LNG from the United States. Cheniere Energy’s Sabine Pass facility is planned to be the first to liquefy natural gas produced in the Lower 48 states for export. The facility has a total liquefaction capacity of 3 Bcf/d and is scheduled to come online in stages beginning in late 2015.

    Growing domestic production over the past several years has displaced some pipeline imports from Canada, while exports to Mexico have increased. EIA expects these trends will continue through 2015. EIA projects net imports of 3.6 Bcf/d in 2014 and 2.6 Bcf/d in 2015, which would be the lowest level since 1987. Over the longer term, the EIA Annual Energy Outlook 2014 projects the United States will be a net exporter of natural gas beginning in 2018.

    So the export terminals don’t exist and the US is still a net importer of natural gas (from Canada). The US officially projects they will become a net exporter in 2018. Even if you believe that it is a lot of time for Europe to wait.

    Oh and take a look at current US natural gas stocks.

    Working gas in storage was 953 Bcf as of Friday, March 14, 2014, according to EIA estimates. This represents a net decline of 48 Bcf from the previous week. Stocks were 932 Bcf less than last year at this time and 876 Bcf below the 5-year average of 1,829 Bcf. In the East Region, stocks were 399 Bcf below the 5-year average following net withdrawals of 35 Bcf. Stocks in the Producing Region were 351 Bcf below the 5-year average of 742 Bcf after a net withdrawal of 11 Bcf. Stocks in the West Region were 126 Bcf below the 5-year average after a net drawdown of 2 Bcf. At 953 Bcf, total working gas is below the 5-year historical range.

    Check the storage chart at

    Natural gas inventories end the heating season below one trillion cubic feet for the first time since 2003

  140. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 6:03 pm

    Squonk/AA; Yeah. Two months ago my propane guy was predicting $5 per gal, but it’s held steady at less than 3. Polar vortex in the East and Midwest was the sucking sound.

  141. Ben,

    Note that propane is considered a liquid by the industry and is lumped alongside oil production in “Total Liquids and not natural gas production. The US is of course a net importer of propane as well. See

    Looks like there was a brief spike of consumer propane price to $4/gallon

    Average US consumer propane price $3.08/gallon as of 17th March according to EIA.

  142. Uzbek in the UK, I agree that Macky is quite mad. You can see what I mean in the argument linked; look further back as well if you wish, s/he’s been at it for days, possibly weeks now:

  143. “I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking ‘misdirection’.”

    Well, at least, Ben, people here can keep more than one story in their heads at the same time!

  144. Has/have the mod(s) noticed that I am being channelled again. Smutty too.

    “PS Why has Obama surrounded himself with these warlike harpies? Rice, Power, Nuland, Jones (in Oddie’s link) or did Shillary play a large part in the placements?

    I am ashamed to be of the same sex as them.”

    In that case, dear MARY, I would recommend a sex change operation. You might have to go private, though.

  145. Keith Crosby

    21 Mar, 2014 - 8:00 pm

    Are your objections to Putin that he’s a baddie or that he’s the same as mountebanks like Obama and his satraps?

  146. Resident Dissident

    21 Mar, 2014 - 9:01 pm

    Perhaps the Putinistas might wish to comment on the appearance of this neo Nazi on their favourite TV channel.

    I look forward to their invasion of the RT studios in response.

  147. Resident Dissident

    21 Mar, 2014 - 9:12 pm

    For all those who assured us that the Russians, including Putin in his recent speech, would protect the rights of the Crimean Tatars please note that their leader has now been declared persona non grata.

    Do our resident Putinistas care?

  148. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 10:05 pm


    This explains your absence from this forum. I see you have been having your own battles with one of THESE lately.

  149. Lots of wargames coming up and current, in Bulgaria, Poland, and Ukraine itself. Surely the US isn’t even thinking it. Surely not…

    Questions: How many American military bases are there around the world? How much of their profits do companies such as Pepsico (Pizza Hut) make in these bases, many of which seem to have fast food outlets? This is aside from companies such as KBR, Bechtel, Halliburton and the arms companies of course.

    Just a thought.

    I’m lovin’ it.

    I’m shootin’ it.

    I lose a leg in the process.

  150. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 10:19 pm


    I have never said that I was expert on Chauvinism but I certainly know a LOT about RUSSIAN Chauvinism. I also said that my knowledge of Middle East is very limited comparing to my knowledge of Russia and its former colonies.

    I was asked whether I was Zionist and my views on one or two state solutions in Arab-Israeli conflict. I have responded to both questions and yet despite my resistance to continue being dragged into discussion on the matter of which I know very little you are trying to provoke me further and further.

    Is this your tactic?

    This particular Thread is about Putin’s speech which derives from recent Russian intervention to Ukraine and Anschluss of Crimea. Please stick to the thread’s topic.

  151. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 10:30 pm

    It is actually fascinating to see how some MAD lefties on this forum who blame current US government (as they said White Father) for genocide against American Indians at the same time turn their blind eye on another GENOCIDED ethnogroup – Crimean Tatars.

    MAD lefties, how many of you know what happened to Crimean Tatars between 1921 and 1944?

    Providing you answer to the previous question with some sensible knowledge

    MAD lefties, who to blame for what has happened to Crimean Tatars?

    In particular I would LOVE to hear from John Goss, Macky, Doug Scorgie, Ben, Squonk and Mike.

    Mary and Sofia Kibo Noh I would be grateful to hear your opinion too.


  152. The short answer, Uzbek: A nasty, paranoid, murderous regime did that to the Tatars.

    A world away from the human sunburst that happened in 1917. That showed us, briefly, what ordinary people can achieve when they are set free from the profit motive. Then the psychopaths and bureaucrats came along and fucked it all up.

    How many deaths have America been responsible for since 1945?

  153. ‘Scuse the grammar.

    The weekend swallee is flowing.

  154. @Richard

    Yeah, I spat my tea when Kerry said “You don’t invade countries on trumped up motives in the 21st Century” or thereabouts.

    These US Global Gangster Fucktards must think we’ve all forgotten about Iraq and half a dozen other illegal Wars in the last 14 years. Putin may be a Gangster too, but at least he’s not insulting my intelligence.

  155. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 10:51 pm


    Russians have cleansed at least 100.000 Chechens in the most recent history already (since 1993). Remember that both Chechens and Crimean Tatars have been treated particularly harshly by Russians ever since Russians have taken over their lands. The last time Crimean Tatars many Crimean Tatars have been sent to certain death was between 1942 and 1944 (this is excluding forced starvation between 1921 and 1923). Chechens have been deported by Stalin in 1944.

    Following this historical parallels it is (unfortunately) time for Crimean Tatars to be cleansed again. I expect inter-ethnic provocations from Russians against Crimean Tatars and as result another wave of harsh treatment of the latter. Russians hate when any of the minority groups have true knowledge of their heritage and their history which in most cases ultimately come across harsh treatment by Russians and as result prevents these minority groups to be fed common propaganda about kind and caring Russian brothers who saved these minorities from (choose) Mongols, Chinese, Arabs, Turks, Germans, Swedish. The others so called late joiners (like Central Asians for example) were spoon fed another type of propaganda about culturally and morally more developed Russian brothers who came to these (Central Asian) lands to educate and modernise these barbarian people.

    I fear for Crimean Tatars, I fear for Ukrainians, I fear for Moldovans, I fear for Kazakhs I fear for Azerbaijanians and I ultimately fear for anyone whose lands putin has already drown into borders of New Russian Empire.

  156. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 11:01 pm


    What I POOR demonstration of knowledge of Russian/soviet history. Do you know that Stalin was Lenin’s right hand since early 1900s. Have you heard of his nickname Koba? Do you know that Stalin before he became Stalin was robbing banks and trains and putting the money into Communist Party, so that Lenin could comfortably design his future (fuck all these Russians and who else Romanov’s rule) plan?

    Have you heard about Red Terror? It was initiated by Lenin in order to consolidate his power and get rid of so called white elements. I quoted both infamous Lenin’s quotes on this blog.

    Mike, please for goodness sake read something on Russian history. It is fascinating how many of YOU write here in support of Putin NOT knowing where his policies are coming from and (most likely) where these policies are leading.

  157. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 11:04 pm


    “Putin may be a Gangster too, but at least he’s not insulting my intelligence.”

    Of course putin is not insulting your inteligence. Something that does not exist (at least when comes to knowing what putin is) cannot be insulted.

    Well Done. George Orwell (if was alive) would be proud of you.

  158. I have read about the 170,000 allied troops that invaded Russia in 1918/19 in a vain attempt to support Admiral Kolchak’s whites.

    I also know Stalin was a cunt.

    My question still stands.

    But I’ll read the answer tomorrow, if I may.

    Peace and love, Uzbek.

  159. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 11:34 pm

    John Goss

    You said “This is likely to raise a few blood pressures. Just how has the western-backed coup backfired? and then AGAIN gave link to RT

    I say, just like Hitler’s rating after Annexation of Sudetland
    By the way, do you see any methodological commonalities between these two?

    Some info on how Hitler worked

  160. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 11:39 pm


    Yet again, cruelty of one you are trying to excuse by cruelty of other.

    So called cunt Stalin was in fact one of the military leaders of Red Terror. Have you heard of Battle of Caricin and its aftermath.

  161. Uzbek in the UK, 21 Mar, 10:05 pm, indeed, and I see what you’re up against. I tried something similar myself once, arguing for the rationing of hydrocarbon extraction on a global warming denial blog. This is probably where the knives start coming out:

  162. Uzbek In The UK

    Are you falling for the infantile fallacy of two wrongs making a right ? Does what happened to the Crimean Tatars, make Western meddling decades later, in the Ukraine situation right !

    Anybody can pick out massacres from history & say “how many of you know what happened to.”

    for example, the Poles in the Volhynia Massacre, ?

    BTW Have you still nothing to say about the Chooseness” of the Jews, or the “Manifest Destiny” doctrine of the Americans, in connection with Chauvinism ?

  163. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 Mar, 2014 - 7:54 am

    Uzbek. 10 30pm

    You know as well as anyone else here “who to blame for what has happened to Crimean Tatars?”

    Mike gave you the short answer, which really says it all. “A nasty, paranoid, murderous regime did that to the Tatars.”

    You can shout as much as you like about “MAD lefties” if that helps you but it won’t alter the facts. Of course the Soviet government bears the blame for the starving of 100,000+ Tatars, the brutal killing and deportations during the collectivisations of the late 1920s, the engineered famine of 1931-33, and the final deportation of 1944. Yes, the Tatars suffered more in proportion to their total population than other persecuted minorities under the Soviet system, even the Ukrainians. There will never be any excuse.

    It is no surprise that Tatars, as a group, feel hostile to all things Russian, but do you really wish to see present day ethnic Russians collectively punished for Stalinist sins? Thank goodness present day Tatars don’t and it appears that many cast votes for integrating with Russia rather than being ruled by the Nuland’s coup thugs.

    The Tatars got their Awda. Lets hope the Palestinians get theirs before another seventy years pass.

    My heart goes out to all Uzbeks who, supported by elites both east and west, live and die under the present brutal regime. Your status as one of it’s victims, whether real or contrived, gives you some protection from the ridicule that your frequent intemperate outbursts invite.

    To label as “MAD lefties” all those who question your visceral hatred of all things Russian does you no favours. Though I don’t particularly mind being included in this group, I would respect you and your posts more if you could point me to sound sources of information to back your views.

    It’s a lovely morning here, frost covers the mountains with a hoary mantle and I’m off to make the most of the day. I know a fake adolescent MAD leftie troll is the last person you’d usually want to take advice from, but here it is anyway. Please take a walk under the beautiful sky that we all share….breath deep….take a break from all the horrors….then let’s get back to the business of making a world where humanity and respect for each other and the rule of law are the norm.

  164. The BBC: Washington’s Mouthpiece — Paul Craig Roberts

    March 16, 2014

    Paul Craig Roberts

    Once upon a time the BBC was a news organization, but that was before the organization sold out to Washington. Today the BBC is a liar for Washington. Indeed, the BBC is a despicable organization that believes that “exceptional, indispensable” Washington has the right to determine the fate of all peoples.

    The proof is everywhere. Just look here:

    The BBC says that the referendum in Crimea is disputed. But by whom? Not by the people voting. The dispute comes from the anti-democratic forces that are not voting–the Obama regime and its puppet UK government and puppet BBC ministry of propaganda.

    How far the BBC has fallen! Look as these BBC lies:

    Lie: “Many Crimeans loyal to Kiev boycotted the referendum, and the EU and US condemned it as illegal.”

    Fact: More than 80% voted and the vote was 96% against Washington. So who precisely boycotted the vote, and how could it have made any difference? The BBC doesn’t care. The BBC’s job is to lie for Washington. Let’s assume that the 20% of voters who did not turn out would all have voted against rejoining Russia. That 20% together with the 4% who did vote not to rejoin Russia could give a vote of 24% against and 76% for. So, despite the BBC’s utterly dishonest attempt to suggest that it wasn’t a majority vote, it would have made no difference whatsoever if the vote turnout had been 100% instead of 80%.

    Lie: “Pro-Russian forces took control of Crimea in February.”

    Fact: Anyone who would repeat this Washington lie at this stage is totally devoid of all integrity. Crimeans took control of their destiny. Crimeans refused to let Washington and its corrupt British puppet take control of Crimea’s destiny. Crimeans stood up to the lies and intimidation coming out of Washington and its two-bit punk NATO puppets. Crimeans gave the finger to the utterly corrupt West.


  165. I am entitled to my own opinion. I do not like being cross questioned here as if it is some court of law. Especially not in bold font.

    [ – Uzbek in the UK got the bold closing tags wrong – bold font continued to the end of the paragraph.]

  166. I normally find myself in agreement with Craig Murray ,BUT not on this occasion!
    A couple of points that I would like to make clear.
    As Craig Murray seems to believe that the Crimea is Ukrainian..WRONG!
    Its Russian.
    The vote was undemocratic/untimely WRONG ,
    it would be vote or fight I think,and voting is better than fighting!
    and Independant observers refied the vote!
    The Russian military invaded the Ukraine…A LIE!

    The Crimea has always been Russian!
    We even had a Crimean War against… not the Ukrainians ,it was the Russians!
    “the [Crimean] peninsula reverted to Russia as it was before 1954, when Communist Party leader Khrushchev passed it to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic.”

    The vote was a landslide in favour from ALL ethnic groups!
    Observers where there during the voting.
    The poll was moved up to Sunday, March 16. Even before it could take place, the Crimean Parliament declared Crimea’s independence. The poll’s results were spectacular: 96% of the votes were for joining Russia; the level of participation was unusually high – over 84%. Not only ethnic Russians, but ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars voted for reunification with Russia as well.

    There was NO RUSSIAN INVASION!!!
    The marines Russia had based in Crimea by virtue of an international agreement (just as the US has marines in Bahrain) secured Crimea’s airports and roadblocks, provided necessary support to the volunteers of the Crimean militia (called Self-Defence Forces), but remained under cover. The Crimean parliament asserted its autonomy and promised a plebiscite in a month time.

    I am NOT a Putin supportter or a “putinista” as Craig pathetically calls them, therefore Craig must be a “cameronista” or is it a “cleggonista”?
    Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee ,Can you tell the difference?
    BUT the West IS the aggressor in this case!
    ..and backing Neo-Nazis and those willing to sell Ukraines resouses for power.
    This is NOT a unique situation
    Here is the history behind this confrontation.

    BUT IF any side will START a war it will be the Western powers!
    The East is swimming in wealth and resourses
    The West is bankrupt! ..unofficially since 2010!
    The West has massive political corruptions being investigated ,bailouts ,paedophilia ,as well as anti-government demonstrations
    and all this political theft has not worked!
    BUT who would put thier money into an UNPROFITABLE AND CORRUPT BANK RUN BY FRAUDSTERS?!?!?
    Cut Benefits to Bankers, Not Public Services
    WE are trying to bring Sharia Law to the secular socialist Syria, even if we have to GAS THEM!!..we need to sell thier nationalised resourses!
    IRAN is about its Oil Bourse, it sells oil in non-dollars!!
    Look out for any excuse for a Western triggered smash and grab!
    A war will get the population behind the centralised power again, it means draconian emergency laws, it means making a lot of money!
    for a centralised authority polition ,it looks like a good and the only way out!
    and others that beat the drums of war!!

    [This comment was automatically held for moderation by the software because it contains 12 or more links.]

  167. It is also immaterial what I and others think about Ukraine and Crimea. The powers-that-be, that is the EU, the US, the UN, Russia, NATO etc will do as they decide. Just hope we don’t have any more real wars, apart from the current war of words that is.

  168. Uzbek in the UK 21 Mar, 2014 – 11:39 pm

    I can’t really add much to what Macky and Sofia Kibo Noh have said. I think, as with your support for the Timoshenko and NATO-backed illegal coup in Ukraine, you are blind to any alternative points of view becasue of your hatred for all things Russian. When I believe I caught ESLO and Resident Dissident sock-puppeting one another and questioned how this might be achieved while giving different IP addresses I was diagnosed as being ‘paranoid’ by somebody who clearly has no medical background as a slur. Being diagnosed as MAD is probably even more insulting. The truth of 9/11 is what is being covered up by the United States in its pursuit of world domination. You get it in privately-made western documentaries too. People, especially relatives, want to know what the US is covering up, but they, like their puppet ‘government’ in the Ukraine, do not believe in inquiries in case the truth gets out. This is Russia Today, one of the better news channels. I agree it has bias but then sensible questions asked should be addressed whoever asks them.

  169. I should have added too that Dr Resident Dissident also blamed my paranoia on why I hold such outrageous conspiracy theories like that linked in my last comment.

  170. Back to Ukraine. Does anyone know about OCSE whose ‘observers’ have not been given entry to Crimea? I know nothing about them. Is it another faceless EU NATO-linked organization.

    Their areas of interest.

  171. You can probably guess who’s behind it Mary.

    Participating States
    The Organization comprises 57 participating States that span the globe, encompassing three continents – North America, Europe and Asia – and more than a billion people.

  172. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 9:52 am

    Am I the only one here who finds Macky’s twisting of Uzbek’s words (which are written in his second language) and his constant bullying somewhat unseemly.

    While Macky is on the subject of massacres perhaps he might wish to acknowledge those undertaken by Milosevic’s thugs on the Kosovans well before the NATO action, which he previously glossed over/ignored in his usual one sided analysis. I also wonder if he shares the view of his hero Galloway that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest catastrophe of his life.

  173. Mary, it’s a US-led attempt to f**k up former Soviet-allied countries under the pretence of making them more secure. About as secure as the twin towers if you ask me.

  174. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:01 am

    “Back to Ukraine. Does anyone know about OCSE”

    Please read Craig’s thoughts about them and their report on Yanukovych’s election on an earlier thread.

  175. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:03 am

    “This is Russia Today, one of the better news channels.”

    That just happens to give a platform to neo Nazis

  176. Thank you Mary for the Paul Craig Roberts link, it perfectly complements this Robert Parry article;

    (h/t to glenn_uk over at Squonk)

  177. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:13 am

    John Goss

    Your latest accusation against me really is ridiculous – my comment was quite clearly about you being paranoid in relation to your claim of my having 2 computers and ISPs and inferring that I was in the pay of someone who put my handle on the computer – it was not a diagnosis of your general mental condition. There is a difference which you may or may not appreciate.

  178. Have you noticed how they always use diversionary tactics? Instead of arguing against the content of Russia Today’s demolition of the US government propaganda, RD. Do not be distracted. If you are going to engage it/them. Make it/them answer. You’ll be lucky if you get them to address. Here are three other links (western) which together show there should be an inquiry into 9/11. As ever it is the victims who are looking for answers.

    Aaron Russo’s interview with Alex Jones (not the singer/actress) is a good place to start because Aaron was Jewish (he was probably dying from cancer when he did this interview. It is short.

    Then there is General Wesley Clark’s interview. It is even shorter.

    As to the evidence. It lasts much longer but is well worth watching.

  179. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:25 am

    Perhaps Sofia and those interested in the Crimean Tatars might like to give their thoughts on the leader of the Crimean Tatars not being allowed entry into the Crimea. Or is this just another abuse of minority rights by Putin that they will wilfiully ignore?

  180. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:30 am

    Have you noticed how they always use diversionary tactics?

    I think you will find that I raised the question of neo Nazis on Russia Today last night – so it is you who is employing diversionary tactics or just being so arrogant to think that you can dictate the terms of the debate. BTW I didn’t notice that this was a 911 thread – throw a diversion and then accuse others who don’t respond of employing diversionary tactics, you’ll be accusing me of hypocrisy next.

  181. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:49 am

    Perhaps Putin should worry more about the Nazis and racists at home that seem to flourish under his regime

  182. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 – 10:30 am

    Sorry RD it is you again doing the same trick. You said it was due to my paranoia that it was no wonder I believed in conspiracy theories. ‘Conspiracy theory’ is a ridiculous term anyway when applied to an alternative argument. You would do well to get some alternative points of view instead of trotting out the same nonsense, comment after comment. Address the issue! Put up or shut up!

  183. I think everyone should pressure Resident Dissident about his views on 9/11. Considering 85% of Americans do not believe the government story. He’s so full of himself but if you try to pin him down on a particular issue he diverts.

    Resident Dissident, do you believe the official story of 9/11.

  184. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:26 am

    Orlov reposts a Ukrainian’s view here. A month old and rather long-winded, but, given what has transpired since writing, bursting with food for thought.

  185. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:33 am

    John. 11 23am

    You are very sweet and patient with RD.

    You know what it is for.

    You’d have more luck arguing with a Pepsi machine.

  186. 10.33

    Thanks Sofia, I know I’m not alone in this. How was your walk? The dogs took me for a two mile jog. I’m knackered, but getting knackered was all done under a beautiful sky, which has turned a little threatening now.

  187. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:45 am

    “You said it was due to my paranoia that it was no wonder I believed in conspiracy theories.”

    No I didn’t – I said “You really are quite paranoid – no wonder you fall for conspiracy theories so easily.” this was in response to various theories you had put forward about myself. I did not diagnose you as being medically paranoid as you are claiming somewhat ridiculously.

    Yes I believe Al Quaeda was responsible for 9/11, I also don’t believe that the Rothschilds control the world – but I am not going to debate these subjects with you yet again – now could you get back to the subject of this thread rather than playing diversionary and hypocriticalgames.

  188. Sofia 11.33 typo.

  189. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:48 am

    So Sofia what are your views on Neo Nazis being given a platform on RT, Racism within Putin’s Russia and Putin’s banning of the Crimean Tatar leader from the Crimea, despite saying he was going to respect the rights of Crimean Tatars earlier in the week. Or are you also just an object incapable of rational argument?

  190. Resident Dissident 22 Mar, 2014 – 11:45 am

    That’s not good enough just to say I believe Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11. It’s a cop out. You do not watch what you call conspiracy theories or argue against them. Anybody can make a cursory statement and say there I’ve said it, it’s true, but it does not address any of the facts found in your idea of conspiracy theory, which has the same foundation as your repetition of the global western buzz-phrase “land-grab”.

  191. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:58 am

    A question that the Putinistas would also do well to consider – especially Mr Goss who is so voluble in criticising Theresa May (yes he called her a fascist) for far less offensive behaviour, but now employs a combination of silence and diversionary tactics when it comes to Mad (rhetorical not a medical diagnosis) Vlad.

  192. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 12:02 pm

    “You do not watch what you call conspiracy theories or argue against them.”

    I do watch – and I even read Mr Aaronovich’s excellent book on them. I also argue against them as well – as you know only too well – but there becomes a time when you see enough evidence to reach a firm view as I have done with 9/11 a long time ago.

    Please stop you diversionary tactics this is not a 9/11 thread – there are other topics relevant to this thread on the table that you continue to ignore. Your behaviour at present amounts to classic trolling.

  193. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 Mar, 2014 - 12:20 pm


    I’ve seen your posts for long enough to know you are not really here to contribute. I won’t be drawn into your endless, “your fascists / massacres / etc” are worse than mine pantomime.

    If you want to know my views on these matters, for what they are worth, there are plenty there. Just look back.


    Thanks. My first walk… beautiful….so much so that I’m off too short to bury myself in the blogosphere today!

  194. Resident Dissident; “Am I the only one here who finds Macky’s twisting of Uzbek’s words (which are written in his second language) and his constant bullying somewhat unseemly”

    I do beg your pardon for only just now noticing that you have made comments about me, as opposed to being made to me !

    Re your concern for the gentle “MAD Lefties” shrieking Uzbek, here a little summary of our little discussion, in very simple language that I’m sure you can follow, and then made some enlightening thoughts about;

    Uzbek claims Russians are especially & inherently bad (chauvinistic).

    Uzbez claims Russian history proves this centuries spanning badness (national/ethnic/racial chavanism).

    Macky points out that Russians are not uniquely & inherently bad, but are exactly normal humans the same as every other people.

    Macky does this by highlighting the badness/chauvinism that is intrinsic in the openly & officially promoted creeds of both the “Chosenness” of the Jews, & the “Manifest Destiny” doctrine of the Americans.

    Uzbek fails to acknowledge these clear examples of other States actually indoctrinating badness/chauvinism in their citizens.

    Uzbek fails to acknowledge that his dubious contention that Russian identity has always been deliberate cultivated to be chauvinistic, is in stark contrast to incontestable chauvinistic official creeds of both the Jewish & American identities.

    Uzbek,s failure to acknowledge the above two points, that disprove his contention that Russians are especially & inherently bad (chauvinistic); reveals a hypocritical inconsistency that betrays his prejudice towards Russians.

    Therefore his criticism of Russia & Russians, and his take on the Ukraine events are not motivated by rational argumentation, but instead are driven by the demon of irrational racism.

    Resident Dissident; “While Macky is on the subject of massacres perhaps he might wish to acknowledge those undertaken by Milosevic’s thugs on the Kosovans well before the NATO action, which he previously glossed over/ignored in his usual one sided analysis. I also wonder if he shares the view of his hero Galloway that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest catastrophe of his life”

    I’m more than happy to address these issues, but let’s follow your hypocritical advice just given to John Goss, and try to stay on topic, so here’s a question for you given your views on the Crimean Referendum;

    Since it’s universally acknowledge that the majority pro-Russian population will always vote Yes for closer integration with Russia, why would they need the “intimidation” of Russian troops to ensure something that is a complete certainty ?

  195. “I think everyone should pressure Resident Dissident about his views on 9/11. Considering 85% of Americans do not believe the government story. He’s so full of himself but if you try to pin him down on a particular issue he diverts. ”

    The real fun comes in trying to pin down a troofer to a particular conspiracy theory. Everybody knows the hijackers were CIA patsies but they didn’t exist and the planes were flown by remote control only of course cargo planes packed with explosives were substituted for the airliners which were flown off to an unknown secret location and the twin towers rigged for demolition using nano-thermate which is an incendiary not an explosive so mini-nukes were used instead only of course there were no planes and the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition and the planes added on afterwards using CGI and nobody died because all the bereaved are hired actors only of course we now know the towers weren’t rigged with explosive at all but destroyed by a ray gun fired from a satellite and the many tons of debris everybody thought had been sent to landfill without forensic investigation had in fact been totally destroyed. The attacks were planned by the Israelis and carried out by Freemasons disguised as neo-conservative giant lizards under the direction of the Illuminati and funded by the NWO.

    There, that should clear things up.

  196. RD 11.58. Still not good enough. You need to argue why the relatives of 9/11 victims are not allowed an inquiry into what caused the demolition of the twin towers and building 7. Quite clearly al Qaeda (a US conceived organisation) never had the capability. And God help the US if they could not intercept two rogue aircraft which had changed flight paths if it ever came to intercepting nuclear missiles. Above 1,000 scientists and engineers, mostly US, believe these buildings were brought down by controlled demolition. Do the relatives of the victims not deserve an inquiry?

    By the way it is not off topic. In 2011 Putin would even have agreed with you. Don’t know what his views are after the US funded coup of the fascists in Ukraine. Russia Today again. He argues that he cannot believe US special agencies were behind it.

    Craig says: “Putin was strongest in his accusations of western hypocrisy.” Tell me why, Resident Dissident, the relatives should not have an inquiry.

  197. You’re another one Kempe (or not) who tries to put ideas into people’s heads about what ‘troofers’ believe.

    This is why I believe there should be an investigation as mentioned at 10.30 am.

    Aaron Russo’s interview with Alex Jones (not the singer/actress) is a good place to start because Aaron was Jewish (he was probably dying from cancer when he did this interview. It is short.

    Then there is General Wesley Clark’s interview. It is even shorter.

    As to the evidence. It lasts much longer but is well worth watching.

    Argue that, especially the third link. Instead of your stupid fantasies about what you would like people to believe those of us with an alternative view argue. Bet you can’t. Put up or shut up.

  198. On the subject of stupid fantasies John which of the myriad alternative explanations for 9/11 do you subscribe too? I understand each one comes with incontrovertible evidence that cannot be de-bunked and therefore must be true (blue teapot!) so you must’ve formed an opinion by now.

    If there’s any entertainment to be had from from the 9/11 “truth” movement it’s been watching them turn in on each other as factions take up ever more bizarre and fantastic theories. It’s accepted that belief in conspiracy theories makes troofers feel empowered. They believe they are in possession of knowledge not accessible or understood by the rest of us, the “sheeple”, and it seems that within the conspiracy movement troofers who believe in the latest and most improbable theory feel themselves empowered above their fellows.

    Whilst there is a tendency to regard the whole conspiracy movement as a collection of harmless loons when the bereaved of events such Sandy Hook, Boston and 9/11 are being harassed and abused by idiots trying to trick or bully a confession from people they think are crisis actors or “vicsims” (simulated victims) it stops being funny. When parents are being fed lies in attempt to dissuade them from having their children vaccinated (in my experience people who believe one conspiracy theory generally believe all conspiracy theories) we’re talking manslaughter.

  199. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    22 Mar, 2014 - 2:33 pm

    Just popping in to do a Komodo. CM has become a snakepit and I don’t like snakes, so let Craig reap what he sowed…Neocon Jubilee !

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