This blog was defending the human rights of the Uighurs a decade before the neo-conservatives for whom they are now a fashionable cause even knew of their existence. The Uighurs are the closest linguistic and cultural cousins of the Uzbeks, and the populations are contiguous. (China is not contiguous with Uzbekistan but Osh and the eastern Ferghana Valley in Kirghizstan are Uzbek majority areas).
The dynamic spread of Islam northwards and eastwards under the Abbasids, (much less commented that the expansion of its early centuries) and the temporary patronage of Islam by the Mongol Yuan conquerors of China, left very substantial Islamic populations throughout Eurasia, which later became subsumed into non-Muslim polities, including by the expansion of the Chinese and Russian empires. The persecution of the Uighurs is a historic continuation. For decades from the mid eighteenth century they were subjected to one of history’s most sustained and organised campaigns of mass rape of the female population by Chinese occupiers. In a historical perspective, it was the period of comparative tolerance that preceded the current massive attempt at cultural genocide which was the aberration.
I do despair of those on the left who excuse the mass imprisonment of hundreds of thousands and the extrajudicial killing of thousands, because it is China doing it and not a CIA aligned power.
The Uighurs are a people with the right of self-determination. They are not Chinese; their language, culture and religion are completely different. They have a clearly defined territory they have occupied continuously for many centuries. One of the problems with the British is that as an island, we tend to only think of colonies as places you sail to. Colonies you walk to is a concept we have not grasped. That is one of the reasons the left in the UK have such difficulty recognising that China is an Empire and Kashgar is a colony. The other reason is that whole “West Bad, Opponents Good” thing.
It is excellent to recognise that the Western powers have done a huge amount of evil in the world. It is a completely illogical step to assume from this revelation that they have a monopoly on evil. All major governments do evil.
Kashmir is the other pressing issue of a Hindu minority population under pressure. Six years ago I annoyed rather a lot of people when I warned that my personal experience of living among them for some months in India was that it was changing into an an “increasingly oppressive and rabidly conservative Hindu society”. I have viewed the rise of Modi and his Hindu nationalists with great concern, while Western governments have been much more concerned with seeking to benefit from India’s economic boom.
The revocation of the autonomous status of Kashmir and Jammu was a reckless and aggressive act of centralisation that was grossly insensitive to both the population and the history of the region – and I write in full awareness that there have been not only Muslim but also many Sikh victims of intercommunal violence over the years. The incorporation of Kashmir into India was a dreadful British error, semi-apologetically enshrined in its special constitutional position, now destroyed by Modi. It is only the statesmanship of Imran Khan which has averted a hideous war.
The Supreme Court of India’s firmly anti-Muslim ruling in the Ayodhya dispute, and the new immigrant citizenship law excluding Muslims (which has outraged the remnants of liberal India), are evidence of intercommunal policy which is all pushing in an anti-Muslim direction. Modi has been portrayed in the West as a moderniser. This is a fundamental error – he is just a populist in the Trump and Johnson mode who succeeds by stirring up feelings against the “other” in the population. The situation in India is destabilising and I fear more violence against the Muslim population is bound to ensue.
The Muslim populations of Central Asia now live in autonomous republics, none of which has transitioned to effective democracy, all of which have been more or less looted by oligarchs, all have continuing serious human rights problems, and all are increasingly under the economic sway of China (which is not, in itself, a bad thing). China remains something of an enigma. Its economic success continues to be staggering, if severely pollution creating. As I frequently assert, there has never been a power in the world of such economic dominance which has shown such a comparatively tiny appetite for military dominance. If you compare China to the USA in this regard the difference is striking. China has very few military bases outside China, the USA has eight hundred.
But the Central Asian “stans” only contain a minority of the Muslim colonies in Eurasia which Russia acquired in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, simultaneous with the expansion of the British Empire. Many of these colonies, with their overwhelmingly Muslim populations, remain part of the Russian Federation which – make no mistake about it – is still an Empire.
The Tatar are the most widespread of the colonial peoples within Russia. Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, Cherkessa, Kabardino Balkaria and Karachai are all areas of Russia where I believe the original Muslim population, absorbed into the Russian Empire by conquest, will in the fulness of time achieve independence, in addition to the better-known Chechnya, Dagestan and Ingushetia. The astonishing brutality of the Russian repression of the perfectly justified Independence movements of the latter countries cannot hold back the tide of decolonisation forever. Crimea, of course, should belong to the Tatars who were deported from their land by Stalin. Not Russia, not Ukraine, but Krim Tatar.
As I said earlier, even though Russia’s colonies were colonised contemporaneously with the British ones, and even though the indigenous populations are Muslim, we in the UK have difficulty perceiving them as colonies because they are contiguous with Russia by land and have been institutionally absorbed into the metropolitan. It is also worth noting that, largely but not entirely as a result of the Soviet period of running its Empire, Russia did a much better job of providing education, health and other public services to its colonies than the British ever did.
It is important to state that these colonised peoples are not Russians but separate peoples in the sense of the UN Charter, with very distinct cultures, histories, languages and religion, and thus they do have the right of self-determination. I do not deny that at present, outside the colonies of Chechnya, Dagestan and Ingushetia, there is little evidence of separatist desire. But I expect that to change over historic time.
It is of course a personal irony that I am very often accused of being a Russian agent because I debunk ludicrous anti-Russian scares like the fake Skripal narrative, or the totally unfounded narrative that Russia has any desire to attack Western Europe. These scare stories about Russia are of course essential to the profits of the western military-industrial-security complex, and I debunk them because they are nonsense, and because of their propaganda power in controlling western populations. But while I have a deep-seated love for Russia, its culture and people, I know of no other commentator who calls for the Russian Federation to be divorced of its internalised colonies, an opinion the Kremlin would find outrageous.
The Eurasian Muslim populations were overtaken by history from around the seventeenth century and, Islam having expanded itself in Eurasia by conquest, the Muslims were generally themselves absorbed into larger Empires by conquest. In Central Asia they have in the last thirty years regained a kind of independence, but are still dominated by foreign imposed institutions and the colonial subordinate administrative and political class. In China and India the conditions of Muslims are worsening markedly. In Russia the brutal crushing of Independence attempts in some areas has led to the current position where the colonial status of the Muslim sub-polities within the Russian Federation is shunned by the entire world as a Pandora’s Box.
This is of course not in any sense a comprehensive survey. But sometimes it is useful to step back and try to see current events in a broader perspective, both historically and geographically. I do hope this gives some food for your own thoughts. I do hope that some of those thoughts are more profound than the notion that Russia and China, as diplomatic opponents of the West, are beyond criticism.
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I know I am coming in at least two days late on this comments thread but I thought I would add this piece of history about the Uyghurs in the Xinjiang Autonomous Territory in western China.
In some parts of this territory, the Uyghurs are not the original inhabitants but arrived in those areas during the 1750s and after. In the middle of the 18th century, the Qianlong Emperor (of the Qing Empire in China; and note the ruling family was ethnic Manchu, not ethnic Han Chinese) carried out a genocide of Mongol Buddhists in what was then known as Dzungaria (northern and eastern Xingjiang) using an army made up of other Mongols, Manchus and Uyghurs. About 80% of the Dzungar people (about 500,000 – 800,000) died from warfare or disease. Dzungar women and girls were given to Manchus and Uyghurs who fought in the Qianlong Emperor’s army against the Dzungars.
“… The Qing genocide against the Dzungar depopulated the land. This made the Qing-sponsored settlement of millions of ethnic Han Chinese, Hui, Turkestani Oasis people (Uyghurs) and Manchu Bannermen in Dzungaria possible … Professor Stanley W. Toops noted that today’s demographic situation is similar to that of the early Qing period in Xinjiang. In northern Xinjiang, the Qing brought in Han, Hui, Uyghur, Xibe, and Kazakh colonists after they exterminated the Dzungar Oirat Mongols in the region, with one third of Xinjiang’s total population consisting of Hui and Han in the northern area, while around two thirds were Uyghurs in southern Xinjiang’s Tarim Basin … In Dzungaria, the Qing established new cities like Ürümqi and Yining … After the Chinese defeated Jahangir Khoja in the 1820s, 12,000 Turki (Uyghur) Taranchi families were deported by China from the Tarim Basin to Dzungaria to colonize and repopulate the area … The Dzungarian basin, which used to be inhabited by Dzungars, is currently inhabited by Kazakhs …
The Qing unified Xinjiang and changed its demographics … The depopulation of northern Xinjiang led to the Qing settling Manchu, Sibo (Xibe), Daurs, Solons, Han Chinese, Hui Muslims, and Turkic Muslim Taranchis in the north, with Han Chinese and Hui migrants making up the greatest number of settlers. Since the crushing of the Buddhist Öölöd (Dzungars) by the Qing led to promotion of Islam and the empowerment of the Muslim Begs in southern Xinjiang, and migration of Muslim Taranchis to northern Xinjiang, it was proposed by Henry Schwarz that “the Qing victory was, in a certain sense, a victory for Islam” … Xinjiang, as a unified, defined geographic identity, was created and developed by the Qing. It was the Qing who led to Turkic Muslim power in the region, increasing since the Mongol power was defeated by the Qing, while Turkic Muslim culture and identity was tolerated or even promoted … The Qing gave the name Xinjiang to Dzungaria after conquering it, reshaping it from a steppe grassland into farmland cultivated by Han Chinese farmers, 1 million mu (17,000 acres) were turned from grassland to farmland from 1760-1820 by the new colonies …”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
Survivors of the massacre fled deep into the Russian Empire and resurfaced as the Kalmyks in the lower Volga River delta area around the northwest Caspian Sea. At least one of Vladimir Lenin’s grandparents on his father’s side (Anna Smirnova) had Kalmyk ancestry; she was originally from Astrakhan near where the Kalmyk people settled.
The genocide of the Dzungarian Mongols left parts of Dzungaria open for resettlement of various peoples including those Uyghurs who served the Qianlong Emperor in his campaigns against the Dzungarian Mongols and others in western China / eastern Central Asia, and including Han Chinese.
The point of this comment is to demonstrate that the Uyghurs have not been entirely innocent victims of Manchu / Qing imperial expansion and in some instances were willing servants and soldiers for that expansion. They have not always lived in the northern half of Xinjiang either and in some parts the Han Chinese can claim to have been resident for as long as the Uyghurs have been resident.
Sounds a slightly tendentious history. The Uyghurs were already there in Xinjiang in the 9th century certainly, and said to the be 7th. The boundaries certainly changed over the centuries, and the Uyghurs may have ended up with more territory later. But they had a good part early on. Wiki there looks Islamophobic, very common, it has to be said.
How can the passage I quoted be said to be Islamophobic? If anything, the actions of the Manchu rulers in NW China during the mid-1700s could be interpreted, from current viewpoints, to be anti-Buddhist, and specifically against the Lamaist form of Buddhism as traditionally practised by Mongols and Tibetans.
We also should not assume that the Uyghurs were already a separate group from Uzbeks and other Turkic groups in the 7th to 9th centuries. Most of these groups only became differentiated from one another due to later historical political developments, such as the Mongol conquests of most of Asia and parts of Europe in the 1200s, and the later spread of successor empires in western, central and eastern Asia, that encouraged Turkic groups to migrate far and wide but also helped to split them up.
Plus you have to explain how suddenly the Kalmyks decided in the mid-1700s to pull up sticks and move all the way from NW China to their current home on the NW Caspian Sea area.
Sounds like Kashmir!
Who could have guessed, peaceful Islam taking up the sword against violent Buddhists and Hindus ?
The Qing dynasty used Uyghurs and other groups (some Muslim, some not Muslim) against the Buddhist Dzungarians because they, the Qing rulers, believed they could control the people they were using to destroy Dzungarian power.
For once in your life, try to get that fact into your Islamophobic / pro-Hindutva-fascist peanut brain.
Ok, the Chinese Qing dynasty, founded in Manchuria was playing divide and rule 2,500 miles away in Kashgar: sure the Chinese were never imperialistic.
Not to start on peaceful non-imperialistic Islam from Mecca-Medina which matched that distance in all directions.
Got it in my violent Hindu-Buddhist peanut brain madam!
One of the reasons I enjoy and contribute to this site is that the author engages with his readers. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him more active than on this article.
Which makes it all the more disapponting that so many of his posts are so abusive. Particularly the one directed at Tatyana, who is one of the nicest and most loyal BTL commenters here.
It’s also disappointing that he hasn’t once engaged with any of the people who have challenged him to stand up his accusations against China (“the mass imprisonment of hundreds of thousands and the extrajudicial killing of thousands…”)
I know that Craig has access to sources that the rest of us don’t have. That’s one of the reasons his site is worth supporting. But you would think if he has reliable alternative sources for his accusations against China, then he might have said so by now. Otherwise you’re left with the conclusion that he puts on a special pair of blinkers when he writes about China, and that in this case he’s just parroting the same lying rubbish you can read in the MSM.
You demand absolute 100% proof, though you know that it is impossible with the Chinese. You simply won’t get it. I am not anti-Chinese, but let’s not pretend they are very delicate. They’re in a nationalist phase at the moment, and they have certainly done a lot of ethnic cleansing in Tibet. The Uyghurs are simply the new Tibet. Any move towards autonomy will simply be cracked down on. And the number of Uyghur jihadis frightens them.
You demand absolute 100% proof…
A blatant lie from a pitiful liar. I didn’t demand absolute 100% proof. I asked for any evidence at all that Craig was doing something more than parroting the lying rubbish I can read in the MSM every day.
Stonky 🙂 so kind of you 🙂
https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/37e06f4b8bd39b473331c049147216f8.jpg
I found a suitable definition for “BTL” in the Cambridge dictionary. Until I got to it, I came across wonderful explanations: Been Too Long, Big Tits Lover and Bible-Thumping Loony.
—
What I was thinking about today is that some Tatars in Uzbekistan don’t know about resettlement in Crimea. What if (just don’t laugh) what if this information is deliberately hidden from them?
I even thought that Russia could send tank troops to Uzbekistan, so that the military would catch the Tatars and take them home.
Some thoughts from being on the ground in China (not Xinjiang). Several times per week I eat at a muslim place, which openly identifies as a muslim place; there are many more of them closer to the local mosque. Islam is not seen as foreign to China; for instance, their greatest explorer (one of the greatest anywhere) Zheng He was a muslim eunuch. Muslims are welcome to practice their faith.
I almost wrote the cliche “worship freely”, but it’d be amiss. Let the Chinese speak for themselves, but they truly seem to see things differently: how can you regulate medicine, firearms, motor vehicles, but leave religion completely free even as it’s much more dangerous? Anyway, Chinese muslims are welcome to worship, but this is on the condition of course that you behave nicely. If you don’t, the hammer may come down, hard.
The PRC mostly inherited the current Chinese borders and they intend to defend them. The right to self-determination has to yield to China’s desire to not get balkanized a la say Syria. The Uighurs (rather some Uighurs) are not persecuted for being muslim, but for jihadist ideology and for a separatism which say the US would also never allow its own population.
Different countries make different choices. As far as I know, Belgium still lets the Saudis run the Great Mosque of Brussels even after all the misery that has caused; Sweden has a knack for paying welfare to “Swedes” who are on jihad sabbatical in Syria. When China discovers some Uighurs are being swayed to jihadist ideology (heavily promoted by the CIA and their Saudi friends), they don’t wait until they have actual jihad on their hands; no, they do something about it by re-educating the troublemakers. No doubt this is sometimes brutal, but haven’t we just seen in Syria and Libya what the alternative is?
Freedom of religion is enshrined as part of the freedom of expression in the UN Charter of Human Rights. Quote:-
“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”
If you’re going to control religion why not control people’s politics too? oh…
If China has a problem with Islamic fundamentalist then it must deal with it but deal with it in a fair and humane manner and not persecute and torture a whole people because of the actions of a minority. Aside from the morality issue this only creates martyrs and will make the situation worse, much worse, in the long run. A lesson Britain had to learn the hard way.
Indeed, China’s control of religion does not conform to the Human Rights charter. On the other hand, the West’s failure to control religion has led to a religious cult seizing something damn close to hegemony over the Western world. Maybe we have to choose between two evils; I know what my choice is, but maybe others will choose differently.
However, China does not persecute an entire people. The canard “UN says a million Uighurs in camps” is echoing throughout the MSM; if you track the story down, it turns out it was the American member of a UN committee making that claim, basically speaking for himself.
Go ahead, tell China that any further steps it takes to liberalize itself won’t be abused by the Dark Throne. After the Hong Kong riots ruining that city, see how far you get with that.
Ma Laoshi, re Hong Kong: it is quite possible that mainland China allows the destruction and will keep allowing it for some time in order to showcase to the Chinese people what a society without order looks like and what kind of destruction it will bring upon its society. As the city deteriorates the destructive forces will eventually leave or become irrelevant since they only thrive in that cycle of destruction and usually fail when it comes to contributing workable solutions or anything constructive. They will also miss the comforts of all the conveniences they have destroyed. If they try to hang on society will grow tired of them since they will simply not be able to produce. So when the time comes, those rebuilding both the city and the society will then be seen as the benefactors. China is pretty good at playing the long game. Making Hong Kong an unattractive place until all remaining contractual ties are severed may well work in China’s favor. Eventually it will become too expensive for any foreign takeover attempt and when all is done China can go in rebuild it from the ground up, in their image and return it to its glory. I don’t think they are sweating much over Hong Kong right now. If they would, they’d act. The lack of action is rather telling.
It’s an opinion that’s often heard: an object lesson for the mainland population, “See what you get with the liberal rules-based order”. Certainly, the mayhem in HK in regularly shown on mainland TV. At least as important here are social media–again not completely free for sure, but genuine and very active.
But there are other factors at work. The US is increasingly hostile to China, but it’s also their biggest customer. Beijing has a feel for the contradictions in the situation, and will rock the boat as little as possible. The way they’ve played it so far, in fact it’s just the Anglo world that’s following the anti-Chinese line, while “real Europe” thankfully for a change is more neutral in the HK issue (which of course isn’t Europe’s issue, but that seldom stops them elsewhere).
Instructive to see that the facts of Beijing’s completely hands-off approach make no difference in the reporting of Anglo state media. The way the latter tell it, Chinese are still “communist thugs”; at the hour of truth, it seems that in the eyes of our MSM superiors, orientals are simply born that way.
Bottom line, Hong Kongers can thank their lucky stars that these riots/protests have had nada traction so far in the mainland. What do mainland Chinese see: * (some) HKers expressing a wish to be colonial subjects again, property of the Crown; * (some) HKers clamoring for US sanctions against their own city; * (some) HKers hurling vile racist abuse (physical as well as verbal) against their fellow Chinese. It’s safe to say that the whole spectacle is overwhelmingly viewed with disdain.
The people of HK often seem to regard their extremely long working days as an issue of pride, but is it really working out so well when people in that city don’t spend enough time with their children.
@ Ma Laoshi December 21, 2019 at 15:51
‘..Go ahead, tell China that any further steps it takes to liberalize itself won’t be abused by the Dark Throne. After the Hong Kong riots ruining that city, see how far you get with that.’
Exactly, like Russia was told NATO wouldn’t encroach on Russia’s border.
The CIA through Turkey was sending sh*tstirrers to China via the Fettulah Gulen movement to stir up the Uighurs, just like they had with the Mujaheddin being sent to Afghanistan:
‘A “Holy War” Against China: Beijing and the Turkic Uyghur Threat’:
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2019/04/19/a-holy-war-against-china-beijing-and-the-turkic-uyghur-threat/
“The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan against the Russians. The same doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian power, and especially to counter the Chinese influence in Central Asia.”1
—Graham E. Fuller, 1999, key CIA architect of US Islam strategy’.
But what about the Falun Gong? What threat did they pose to bring down upon them the horrendous ferocity of the State, apart from their sheer number and popularity? I am sure the CIA was involved in using that movement as well, but have no evidence. Perhaps you can provide some explanation?
China has no problems with Islamic fundamentalists. It has problems with Islamic extremists with a propensity towards acts of terror. Much like the rest of the world. And while they run free in that rest of the world and keep committing heinous crimes, China has decided to try something else. Not that European countries for example are particularly enthusiastic in taking back extremist fighters or supporters either. They simply ignore the issue and thus keep outsourcing it as someone else’s problem. Not a solution for the long term. But helps keep the domestic image clean. Although concentration camps in the middle east housing Islamic Extremists will always be exactly that.
Btw, Saudi Arabia for example did not sign the UN declaration citing incompatibility with Sharia Law, which has been a topic of discussion for decades now in various Muslim countries. The discussion so far has not produced a resolution. So perhaps citing a declaration that is incompatible with Islam in order to protect those following Islam is a bit of a stretch.
But let’s stick with those Human Rights for a moment. Article 29. (1) states: Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
Which means people don’t just have rights, they actually have responsibilities too. And these include that people shall not go about terrorising others, not even while they “manifest” their religion.
If the West had been genuinely concerned about the lot of the Uighurs, it should have prevented Uighurs receiving jihad training (with weapons and religion) on NATO territory, duh; not sure if this is still ongoing. Given that the slaughter in Yemen is still a-OK, one may assume Western clamoring is all just noise.
They got their first solid training by triple dealer Pakistan next door, the all weather friend of China, major non NATO alley and Sword of Sunni Islam. The Pakistani ISI takes money from the highest bidder – could be private Islamic Jihadi groups too.
If China has a problem with Islamic fundamentalist then it must deal with it but deal with it in a fair and humane manner and not persecute and torture a whole people because of the actions of a minority…
Actually, there are about 12 million Uyghurs in Xinjiang and according to the western MSM only about 3 million of them are currently locked in concentration camps being tortured, having their organs harvested, and being subjected to extrajudicial killings. So the Chinese are not in fact “persecuting and torturing a whole people”. They’re only persecuting and torturing about a quarter of them.
So now 1 million already became 3 million? But that’s still only halfway there: good things always come in six, don’t they?
Seriously though, it may help others if they can figure out which point you are trying to make. Is there a factual claim that millions of innocent people are being organ-harvested? Given how deeply connected China now is to the rest of the world, that might leave a trail of evidence if it actually happened?
Or is the claim simply that MSM is lying like it always does? Then why the ominous language? And are we to post here grave-sounding messages as well every time the sun rises, or the tides change?
Stonky is being sarcastic.
But since Stonky brought up the organ-harvesting narrative, as far as I am aware, most sources that fixate on the organ harvesting tend to repeat one another and if you try to follow their citation back to the original source, that source nearly always turns out to be Falun Gong or a source related to Falun Gong, such as The Epoch Times newspaper which is owned and operated by Falun Gong members.
This narrative has been going for 20 years at least and in that time, one might have expected independent sources who have nothing to do with Falun Gong or any of its related enterprises (including digital video outlet New Tang Dynasty and the dance company Shen Yun) to have come forward with evidence of organ harvesting in prison hospitals or mobile execution vans.
The fact that the founder of Falun Gong, Li Hongzhi, happens to live in NYC, in Manhattan no less, might tell us something about who funds Falun Gong and its enterprises.
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/08/anti-china-cult-gets-us-government-money-runs-large-pro-trump-ad-campaign-.html
Russian media reported about China and I recall they said it is Hether Nauert from USA State Department who introduced the problem of camps in China. I do not trust anything coming from USA State Department, when they say “the source of information we cannot name”.
Also, I see reports on Ukrainians, who arrive to Hong Kong and are not allowed to enter. Because some people from Azov batallion were seen on the HK street helping protesters, and also those Ukrainian activists post the photos of ‘Chinese Maidan’ and their own contribution to it. So China’s customs simply refuse entrance for ukrainian citizens now.
It’s no secret that ukrainian radicalization started with the help of USA.
[in reply to Jen]
China still executes people, which I don’t support, but at least the number of executions is falling. I don’t think this has much to do with liberalization, but rather with a fall in crime rate: people are much better educated now, and mostly have better things to do than street thuggery and drugs. China already incarcerates fewer people per capita than the US, and may in a few years have fewer absolute numbers behind bars.
And when you win the main prize, your death sentence must now first be reviewed and confirmed centrally before the execution can proceed, to weed out the penalty’s worst abuses. One of the ways in which old Chinese cultural norms are found to be relevant and useful in the modern PRC.
If anyone would have data or details on these I’d be interested to hear it.
[still replying to Jen]
I only recently learned about Shen Yun being a Falun Gong front; I’d noticed though they are widely promoted. I can well understand China cracking down on the cult, though this seems to have been needlessly violent. Ordinary followers got a raw deal; that said, I wouldn’t take the cult’s own word for anything, and if an outfit like that ever gained power in China things would be much, much worse.
[In reply to Tatyana]
Yes I saw (that’s to say in photos, but I also go to HK from time to time) the Azov goons in HK, showing off their “White Power” tattoos to admiring blackshirt rioters. Thank goodness somebody clamped down on this, and that even when it was ongoing, the Banderovtsi couldn’t easily bring their heavy weapons with them to the Fragrant Harbour.
For personal experience, I think mainlanders (not HKers) are better informed about U Ke Lan (Ukraine) than West Europeans, and understand the relevance to their own region.
Hong Kong cares about a Western image for some reason, and it will play along quite far (too far?) to keep its special favored trade status with the US. After all, when (some) mainlanders are at least as well educated and generally with a better attitude, what else has HK going for it?
The Dark Throne tries to normalize that HK must dance to Washington’s “extraterritorial legislation”, but the Basic Law agreed with the British is clear that HK’s foreign affairs are a sovereign Chinese issue, and overseas meddling and political donations are a no-no. Had this been better enforced, Washington would have been limited in its ability to buy dubious loyalty (indeed, Maidan-style), and much misery would have been averted.
Ma Laoshi, thank you!
Maybe the reports of forced organ havesting results from the history of China being one of the largest organ trafficing nation in the world and for their role in the human organ market (for more info refer to this WHO bulletin https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/85/12/06-039370.pdf and the references, such as this China Post attempt to save face https://chinapost.nownews.com/20060817-138609).
Given the number of organs that are transplanted in China – all with no provenance – the rumours are inevitable: The Chinese readily admit harvesting the organs of execution victims, but one still has to wonder how their transplant industry manages to source so many organs.
One simple solution to this issue is for China to introduce tranparency – such as proven provenance of every organ – then these rumours will be killed dead or revealed to be true. Until then, any intelligent person has to assume that they are hiding for a reason.
Ma Laoshi, thank you for your instructive and helpful comment. I can see no reason why China should take any notice of threats and insults from Western powers and their mass media mouthpieces. Having suffered violence, exploitation and indignities from westerners in the not so distant past – I’m thinking of the Opium Wars and the Boxers’ Revolt – it is only to be expected that whoever is in charge in China intends to firmly defend its borders. That determination isn’t going to change.
I haven’t visited China, although I have lived in an overseas Chinese community in Malaysia. That’s a country where most of the population are either Muslim Malays or secular Chinese, along with numerous smaller ethnic minorities including Hindus, Christians and pagans. They all seem to manage to live together in reasonable harmony. They are all Malaysians. Let’s hope it stays that way.
I’ve also lived in an Arab country: Libya. At the time it was a stable, prosperous, secular state. Health care was free to all, with those needing treatment not available in the country being sent abroad at public expense for treatment. On account of trade sanctions some of the hospital equipment was antiquated, but still carefully maintained and functional. Education was free to all up to university level. About 50% of university students were women. Women students in the university where I worked could choose how they wished to dress – about half dressed traditionally, the others dressed in western style. Dress wasn’t an issue, any more than it is today in the European city where I now live. I saw no signs of poverty in Libya – everybody had enough to eat, although meat was often scarce. There was almost no petty crime. Even in the capital city you could leave your car unlocked on the street. Well, I was told there was some petty thieving of windscreen wiper blades. There were shortages – at the time it was hard to buy good new shoes or photographic film (that was before the time of digital cameras) or even table cutlery. There was obviously an urgent need for more local manufacturing, but it isn’t easy to start a workshop when sanctions prevent the import of machine tools. However some neighbours of mine had started a business making TV aerials. Other people were making spare parts for cars. There were occasional water shortages, which were of course nothing to do with sanctions – it’s a desert climate. The government responded with the sensible move of banning the washing of cars.
Now all that has gone, thanks to the fucking westerners, their bloody humanitarian interventions, and their barbaric Islamist friends.
Thanks again, Ma Laoshi, and thanks too to Craig, for hosting this marvellous oasis of free exchange of views.
“I do despair of those on the left who excuse the mass imprisonment of hundreds of thousands and the extrajudicial killing of thousands, because it is China doing it and not a CIA aligned power.”
Nonsense, Craig. These are entirely unsupported allegations made by agencies of the US Government–and entirely contradicted by the World Muslim Council’s twelve inspectors, not to mention the 1,000+ others who have taken the time to visit the re-education centers.
The EU, with which you are so keen to reunite, twice refused requests to send inspectors as did NATO member Turkey. Both of them repeated the US atrocity story that is completely out of character with China’s observed treatment of her 35 minorities.
There is a simple solution to this problem: China could open up Xinjiang and Tibet to normal tourists. Why do they not do this? One has to wonder why they would defend the west’s “propaganda” by preventing freedom to travel the very areas in dispute.
I fear you have a romantic view of China. When you state “the US atrocity story is completely out of character with China’s observed treatment of her 35 minorities” then I know you don’t know what you are talking about. For a start, China is still a closed environment where the operations of the government are not even slightly transparent. Areas of the country are off limits to westerners and even to non-resident Chinese, yet you know how China treats their minorities? Give us a break.
Interesting. I would only add: Let’s not leave out of our discussion of righteous China it employment of a terrifying social credit system.
The Grayzone examines the claim that China has detained millions of ethnic Uyghurs, and discovers two absurdly shoddy “studies”, one by a US-backed NGO, and the other by of far-right Christian ! ;
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/
Ah those right-wing Christians; also in Bolivia, it didn’t hurt Washington having a few of them on their side. Today’s liberal establishment loves itself some guilt-by-association attacks to enforce its orthodoxy, but it is in fact quite vulnerable to those same attacks given the company it keeps in Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Hong Kong–well basically anywhere the Dark Throne goes about its business.
Indeed. That needs to be read.
“Crimea, of course, should belong to the Tatars who were deported from their land by Stalin. Not Russia, not Ukraine, but Krim Tatar.”
With all due respect Crimean Tatars are invaders that occupied Crimea after 13th century and their status as “indigenous peoples of Ukraine” is nothing but Ukrainian post-2014 anti-Russian propaganda. Let’s not ignore numerous archeological sites and hostorical artefacts of Scythian, Greek, Russian and Byzanthian origin scattered all over the peninsular that predate Tatar artefacts by centuries. Following the same logic Crimea does not belong to Tatars but to Scythians and Byzanthians and … Russians.
While we are “divorcing the empires of their internalized colonies” should we perhaps take a look at the Americas or British Isles? I am sure in time the indigenous people could be persuaded to take their lands back.
“Crimean Tatars are invaders that occupied Crimea after 13th century…” Thanks for this, Uncle Zapf.
Modern Crimean Tatars are 3 major sub-ethnic groups:
1. Southern coast of Crimea – derived from Greeks, Goths, Turks and Circassians;
2. Highlands -Tats, the mixture of almost all peoples and tribes that have ever lived in Crimea;
3. Flatland – Nogay aka Polovtsy.
This last ethnos Polovtsy, who called themselves Kypchak, and later Tatars .
Their ancestors Sars wandered between the Mongolian Altai and the eastern Tien Shan and some sources say they were one of Uighur tribes. Their Khaganate was defeated by Uighurs and Chinese, and the rest of the tribe spread itself to Kazakhstan and Siberia. Since XI century they were constantly attacking the Russians. In XII they were driven out by the Russians to the Caucasus, beyond the Volga and the Don. After the Khan Batu’s European campaign of 1236–1242, the Polovtsy ceased to exist as an independent political unit, but made up the bulk of the Turkic population of the Golden Horde.
It is under Golden Horde period of time that they got the chance to dominate over other ethoses. I must also say, that islamizattion of the population was done by force.
By XV Crimean Khanate and the Ottoman Empire were political dominants, and Turkic languages (Polovtsian-Kypchak in the territory of the Khanate and Ottoman in the Ottoman possessions) became dominant, and Islam acquired the status of a state religion throughout the peninsula.
—-
DNA study shows that mountain and southern coastal Crimean Tatars genes are similar to the populations of the Eastern Mediterranean. The flatland sub-ethnos of Crimean Tatars is genetically close to the Turkic and Mongoloid population of Eurasia
This indicates that genetically Crimean Tatars formed of two “layers”: the “Mediterranean” component introduced into Crimea as a result of ancient migrations and the “Eurasian” component introduced by medieval migrations.
Logics says that Ancient is somewhat earlier than Medieval.
So, not, they are not indigenous islamic population.
Just another invader who got their chance to make their language and their religion dominate.
From the 1400s to the 1750s, the Crimean Tatar khanate was a subsidiary state to the Ottomans. This meant that in return for protection, the Crimean Tatars had to pay tribute and perform certain other duties. One of these other duties was to supply soldiers, transport animals and various people to cook food, water horses and perform other tasks for the Ottoman army whenever it was on the march.
Tribute that the Crimean Tatars had to pay to the Ottomans included slaves, especially female slaves. Crimean Tatar slave raiders used to range as far north as Moscow and as far west as Poland to find and capture young girls and women for the slave markets in Istanbul. Particularly attractive women might end up in the Ottoman sultan’s harem. The wife of Suleyman the Magnificent (reigned 1520 – 1566), known as Roxelana aka Hurrem Sultan was originally a slave captured by Crimean Tatars in central Europe; depending on what sources are consulted, Roxelana was either from an area now part of Ukraine or the daughter of a Polish priest.
Paradoxically people captured as slaves by Crimean Tatars and other slave raiders operating on the outskirts of Ottoman territory (including the Mediterranean Sea) sometimes, but not always, achieved high status and wealth in Ottoman society of a kind they might never have experienced if they had never been captured. Once married to Suleyman the Magnificent, Roxelana exercised a fair amount of influence over her husband and schemed to get one of her sons (she had a number of sons and one daughter) to be Crown Prince; this meant that the sultan’s eldest son by a concubine ended up the victim of various schemes that alienated him from his father and which ultimately led to his strangulation death. By hoping to get her son on the throne, Roxelana may have intended to rule the empire indirectly through him. The irony is that one of her sons did become Sultan after Suleyman, but by then Roxelana herself was dead (she died in 1558).
From 1566 to the late 1600s, a series of weak Sultans sat on the throne: during this period, the effective ruler of the Ottoman empire was the Haseki Sultan (the wife of the Sultan) or the Valide Sultan (the queen mother). One of these women, Turhan Hatice Sultan, who dominated Ottoman politics from the 1650s to the early 1680s, had been captured as a child in a slave raid by Crimean Tatar raiders.
Wikipedia article on Sultanate of Women
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Women#Powerful_sultanas_during_the_period
Other people captured as slaves or drafted as slaves for the Ottoman army became janissaries (elite soldiers in the army) and could later become public servants. The famous architect Sinan was originally a slave drafted into the Ottoman army.
Jen, there’s a turkish series ‘Muhteşem Yüzyıl’ describing Roxolana. It was translated into russian and became extremely popular in my country. Me myself watched it twice and even learned a bit of Turkish language 🙂
I agree that slaves could achieve great goals. A distinctive feature of almost any empire is that the ethnicity of a person does not matter for a successful career, but only loyalness to the emperor. Needless to say that people changed their religion too.
I have not seen this series myself – it has yet to arrive in the English-speaking countries – and I don’t usually have time for watching TV historical dramas but from what I have heard about it and some bits I have seen on YouTube, it certainly could teach the BBC more than a thing or two about staging such historical dramas on the terms of the period in which the dramas are set, without having to inject current social fads and fashions into the plot or the portrayal of characters.
I believe there was a second series made about the life of Kosem Sultan who preceded Turhan Hatice Sultan and was probably even done away with by her successor daughter-in-law.
Jen, I’ve heard turkish people criticised the film for the lack of historical truth, because women were ‘too naked’ in the film and Sultan Suleiman spent too much time with his women, also they didn’t like that the actress who performed Roxolana was German. The last complaint I can understand. They have that wonderful lady to perform Valida Sultana, and Hatige Sultana, and Suleiman’s first wife … so Roxolana didn’t fit in that gorgeous garden. The side story of Ibrahim Pasha was touching 🙁
An Andre Vltchek piece was referenced earlier, and here’s is another one by him spelling out how the Uyghur issue is being manipulated against China;
https://off-guardian.org/2019/07/23/march-of-the-uyghurs/
An excellent piece of writing. Pity there are so many idiots commenting.
Yes, Britain colonised whatever they could. Yes, Russia colonised its neighbourhood. Yes, China colonised Xinjang, parts of Mongolia and Tibet, exactly as Craig wrote. Yes, India is treating Kashmir and the North East as colonies. The indigenous populations there were and are oppressed. See, patriotism is a good thing, it’s okay to be a patriotic British/Russian/Chinese/Indian. But please, commenters, stop peddling nationalist cryminal bullshit of the type “the victims deserve it”.
Kashmiri, first of all I’d like to clarify that I am responding, not commenting. Besides that I have to agree with you of course, migration and colonization has been common practice throughout the human experience. Which means that due to that constant flow and exchange of people there are no true indigenous populations. Holding people to their responsibility to live peacefully amongst each other is not oppression. Although you might be surprised how many populations feel oppressed and want to secede, even in Europe. Never mind Brexit or Scotland, the list is rather large for such a small area: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2017/oct/27/beyond-catalonia-pro-independence-movements-in-europe-map . Not all that surprising given the territorial history of Europe…
Contrary to your belief it is not “okay to be a patriotic British/Russian/Chinese/Indian”. Allow me to explain: In the US a quarter of the population wants their state to secede, in Texas some areas reach up to 34%, but US law forbids secession of any state. That is oppression, anchored into the law. So while it is indeed ok to be a patriotic American, it is not ok to be a patriotic Texan. Quebec has long had a strong separatists movement although two votes have not settled the issue yet. Before the second referendum Bill Clinton, US president at the time, let Canada know that the US will not accept an outcome resulting in the independence of Quebec. Now we have oppression of a whole country by a different country. Meaning it is certainly not okay to be a patriotic Québécois, or Canadian. Just like the recent US law on the “protection” of European energy security (cute how they worded it), where the US creates a law that dictates how a whole set of countries, such as the EU has to conduct itself, otherwise there will be economic punishment – even if EU companies don’t even conduct business in the US, but inside the EU and in full accordance with EU laws! Now that is oppression by any standard. Alas the media, whether commercial or social turns a blind eye. So no, it is certainly not ok to be a patriotic European. These days the world pretty much has to agree with the decrees of the US hegemony. Ask the average Russian if it is ok to be a patriotic Russian, at the world stage level, and while many of them are, they will also tell you that it is no ok in the eyes of others. Same goes for the Chinese. So in other words, these days the definition of oppression is mostly defined in the US, accepted by the likes of you and then stoked at the local level. Any attempt at the reverse runs the risk of being assanged. I am sure Julian feels rather oppressed. Or all the others who would like to follow in his footsteps but are now afraid to do so. Or if not afraid then they can expect to be silenced in other ways. Oppression is closer than you expect. Even you took it upon yourself to dictate the behavior of others here. The use of please doesn’t make it any less of an imposition when you follow with ‘stop doing xyz’.
Btw, there is hardly anything more nationalistic than insisting a certain stretch of land “belongs” to people x rather than people y. In this case the author has set the tone, revealing some deep and personal leanings at the same time, and thus hardly deserves the grade of excellent. For this piece anyway. Especially considering the other flaws in it.
In closing I’d like to congratulate you on your level of self-reflection at the very top of your comment.
“I do despair of those on the left who excuse the mass imprisonment of hundreds of thousands and the extrajudicial killing of thousands, because it is China doing it and not a CIA aligned power.”
The romantic view of China is a very peculiar British trait. When I first moved to China I wrote off my UK friends’ ignorance as “the grass is always greener” or “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” sort of nonsense, but I am now convinced that it is an emotional, romantic view, helping to sustain their belief that the world can be a better place because Nirvana, China, exists as an example to us all.
I guess it persists partially due to the absense of true western journalism in China: the belief that no news is good news. The voluntary blindness continues even today, many years later, and some friends still refuse to believe that China is anything other than a land of wise men/women, with a huge culture of wise books, more clever and stable than the west, who have a happy equitable society, etc etc. Of course, China is devoid of any culture these days, and never had anything much in the first place – as evidenced by the museums in Taipei – but the delusion continues.
Good to see that Craig Murray is not suffering the same ignorance.
Craig,
Your call for independent Crimea under Tatars is rather silly. If they ever were majority there, it was in 15th century by conquest and slaughter of locals. Stalin deported from Crimea also Germans, Armrnians, Poles, Bulgarians and Greeks. By your logic most of England should be returned to Italian descendants of Romans.
Eric Zuesse who made comments here on page 1, has a Post on this here;
https://thesaker.is/which-are-more-important-ethnic-or-class-differences/
Another article addressing the issues;
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/52751.htm
Mr. Murray writes “I do hope this gives some food for your own thoughts.” Ok, my own thoughts are published in the next thread, I copy it here:
… I’m damn against violence. And I will never support the “victory at any cost”. I hate conflicts, any sorts of them, but I am not afraid of and do not avoid these situations. If there’s a chance to settle everything peacefully, then this is my choice. I will not hit first, but be sure I’ll hit back for defense.
Here and there in the comments I meet examples that are not relevant for the Russian reader. e.g. Chechnya. Do you know that many deaths preceding real military events are now simply hushed up, for the sake of peace and national tolerance? Mr. Murray casually hinted at this in his previous article.
Btw, I will step aside a little. A rather emotional comment about the prospects for relations with Chechnya upset me. I know that a couple of generations should change, and maybe then the children will be able to sincerely say “please forgive me” to each other.
Something like this is happening now between the Russian and Crimean Tatars. People want to live and develop, and not kill each other.
But there is sure to be some old man who lacks wisdom, but remembers that he didn’t take revenge. And a historian who will dig up petrified piece of shit (missing a piece of someone else’s petrified shit lying nearby) and on this incomplete evidence, the cauldron of negativity and violence will again begin to stir.
I wholeheartedly wish the old generations to solve their problems during their own lives and not drag the blood feud of Montague and Capulet into young children…”
I researched the web to know more about Crimean Tatars in Uzbekistan, and found this:
Mr. Nusret Dzhemilev, the Chairman of the National Cultural Center of the Crimean Tatars of Tashkent, interviewed in 2014:
(*the facts Mr. Dzhemilev tells in this interview*)
– How many Crimean Tatars remain in Uzbekistan today?
– I suppose, since there is no exact data, from 80 to 100 thousand, and this number is constantly decreasing as people leave. Although no one helps us with the move, they promised to help.
– Who promised?
– Ukraine undertook such obligations, but due to very poor economic environment in the country, they did not solve this issue.
– Is there any data on how many Tatars returned to Crimea during the years of independence of Uzbekistan?
– At present, about 300 thousand Tatars live in Crimea, and, as I think, most of them have moved from Uzbekistan.
– And, as I understand it, no one interfered with this?
– At first, in the late 80s and early 90s, the Uzbek authorities hindered, because many of those who left were strong, competent specialists, many held high posts. And now in Uzbekistan there is a sea of its own personnel…
(*the opinions Mr. Dzhemilev tells in this interview*)
– How do you personally feel about the fact that Crimea has become Russian?
– I’ve lived all my life in Uzbekistan, but many of my friends and relatives lived in Ukraine, and suddenly, in a short period of time, they are forced to live in another state – it’s clear that this is difficult to perceive as a normal situation.
But, nevertheless, what has happened that must be recognized as a fact. Although the leaders of our Mejlis (executive-representative body of the Crimean Tatars – Author’s note) say that they perceive this very negatively, now more and more Crimean Tatars are inclined to believe that it’s necessary to go and work with Russia.
Otherwise, if we start confrontation, if we resist what we have been forced upon, this will be perceived negatively, and our small people may be prevented from developing, from living normally.
– So you are inclined to submission?
– Not submission, we tend to live in accordance with this situation. But we, a small nation, which is on the verge of survival, cannot resist such a large state as Russia.
– In your opinion, how friendly are the Crimean Tatars living in Uzbekistan? Do you personally feel that we have such a solid, friendly diaspora?
– This friendship, this unity is manifested when a difficult situation arises. For example, when the annexation of Crimea began, the Crimean Tatars stood together and supported our Majlis in its attitude to this annexation. Because people are wise in the Mejlis by experience, they know that the Russians, no matter how offensive to this people, always deceived the Crimean Tatars and never kept their promises.
I think it all depends on the leader. Now there seems to be a normal head of the Mejlis there, and as he puts it, he will prove himself, it will be so.
– What, in your opinion, is Putin’s attitude towards the Crimean Tatars?
– Judging by the steps he voiced, the attitude is positive, because he approved the Crimean Tatar language to be the third state language, after Russian and Ukrainian, in the territory of Crimea. But the fact that he prevents the creation of our autonomy on a national basis, this negatively affects people. Our people deserve their autonomy.
But I hope that in the future they will give permission to create at least the Crimean Tatar Autonomous Okrug with our priority mentality.
the source in russian language
http://www.asiaterra.info/natsionalnye-menshinstva/v-uzbekistane-zamolchali-70-letie-deportatsii-krymskikh-tatar
The interview of Mr. Dzhemilev fully confirms my thoughts.
He has excuses for Ukraine and Uzbekistan, but Russia. His complaints about evil fate of his small suffering people provoked someone to write the commentary under the article, in a rather crude form:
“As always, the un-respectable Mr. forgot the CENTURIES when his ancestors existed due to the robbery of Slavic lands and the trade in Slavic slaves; forgot to mention how they greeted Wehrmacht officers with trays full of documents of the Red Army soldiers killed by them, how they fed the pigs with the bodies of captured partisans (documented fact ), as in a huge number (according to the calculations of historians – an absolute majority) they joyfully served the Third Reich. It does not gets to their understanding that if, given the sum of all factors, if the Russians proceeded with them in fairness, then there wouldn’t be any “Crimean Tatars” now, and only legends about them would survive, just like the Mayans or the Aztecs…”
You see? It never ends. Someone must be clever enough to stop. Russia made the first step. And the second.
I don’t see problems with autonomy either, we are a federation, we have 85 subjects, 4 of them are National Autonomous Districts (Okrug) and also 1 Jewish Autonomous Region (Oblast).
“I do despair of those on the left who excuse the mass imprisonment of hundreds of thousands and the extrajudicial killing of thousands, because it is China doing it and not a CIA aligned power.” Such a thing should be despaired of. But first things first. Look at ‘who’ is making the claim that a million (the numbers cited by some sketchy sources keeps rising) Uighars are being kept in re-education camps. I just want to know the facts. I have no special power to be able to do that. So I ‘have to’ listen to those (sticking to alt media, even if this or that source therein is problematic in some ways) who are claiming to ‘know’ what’s going on there, whatever they say. I have no choice but to simply go on my own sense of who is most trustworthy and which info is most likely correct.
Incidentally, After a lot of vocal protests about the treatment of the Rohingya (including here), virtually nothing has been said in the alt media. I don’t follow corporate media and don’t own a tv set, so I can’t speak to that source of info. I really wish there were people investigating all of that. I know one thing for sure, It is NOT a simple case of evil Burmese army persecuting poor ‘ethnic’ minority Rohingya.
“China detaining millions of Uyghurs? Serious problems with claims by US-backed NGO and far-right researcher ‘led by God’ against Beijing” by Ajit Singh and Max Blumenthal (The Grayzone) / https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/
I have a problem, myself, with the way some on the Left report on China. (No one is honest.) A good example would be Andre Viltchek. Andre’s a good guy, but in order to strengthen his narrative about the evil American empire, he reports on China as though it was perfect and its ruling class is benevolent. That just doesn’t work for me. In fact, Why is being so unbalanced (and dishonest) about the state of China necessary in order to make the case that the US, which sees China as a potential rival for supreme leader of the world, is evil? I don’t get it. Unless that kind of reportage is a deliberate act of sowing confusion and chaos. Nothing would surprise me. The guy who was once touted as a possible replacement for Julian Assange turned out to be a sex-offending, paid government asset proselytizing the – non existent – privacy power of Tor.
‘Uiyghur “Activist” Quickly Exposed As CIA Asset Slandering China@:
https://alethonews.com/2020/01/01/uiyghur-activist-quickly-exposed-as-cia-asset-slandering-china/
‘Also plugging a narrative that China is some kind of Nazi Germany. This kind of atrocity propaganda being a staple of US regime change. We need not forget the faked Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify the Vietnam war. Hilary Clinton claiming Ghaddaffi handed out Viagra to soldiers to rape to justify destroying the most successful country on the continent of Africa (Libya).
Anyone else remember WMDs in Iraq and 45 seconds to launch?
Incubator babies in Iraq? (to justify the first invasion in the 1990s).
She also bandies about “3 million Uyghurs in camps”.
The original number was “1 million” which has since been disproved by the excellent Grayzone.
This seems to be a staple of shitlibs. To just say an outlandish ridiculous and easily disprovable claim but hope it sticks. However the fake news media (from WaPo to NYTimes ) are more than happy to run with it. Just a coincidence a trade war between US and China is on, right?
However using the Archive.org website which holds archives of other websites someone discovered a page with a Rushan Abbas on it. And what we learn there is she’s essentially a US intelligence asset….’
Who’d have guessed? The CIA stirring up terrorist insurgents by effecting their influx to other countries, as they did in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, and Libya.
The persecution of the Uighurs is a historic continuation. For decades from the mid eighteenth century they were subjected to one of history’s most sustained and organised campaigns of mass rape of the female population by Chinese occupiers.
This is the stupidest word I’ve ever seen.First of all, the continued rape of Uighur women, if any, were Mongolians, exterminated Zhungeer Mongolia, and they kept asking Uighurs to tribute wine and women.The Uyghurs themselves are a nation formed by rape.They look different.Resembling Europe, they were raped by the Uighurs.The ancient Uighurs in history lived in the current Mongolian country, and they looked similar to today’s Mongolians.After they were defeated by the Kyrgyz people, some came to China’s Gansu Province and formed the Yugu people. They retained their original appearance and were no different from the East Asians.In addition, some Uighurs entered the oasis of Xinjiang and raped the local Tuhulu people to form the current Uyghurs.You are also a politician, but you lack basic historical knowledge.