Ukraine (Date: Nov. 2023)

Latest News Forums Discussion Forum Ukraine (Date: Nov. 2023)

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  • #99418 Reply

      NATO is enormous system, just imagine the scale – plants and factories, camps and seaports, space programs and research institutes – so many jobs, so many properties, and every citizen chips in for this spending.
      Anybody really expects Stoltenberg may gather them big bosses for a meeting and say: “Gentlemen, we decided we need peace, not war, so you better go home and find another job, like a teacher, or a seller. We convert our facilities into something peaceful, and we sell our property for civil use, and our money will go for something good from now on”.

      #99456 Reply


        NATO has to be fought by all kinds of people on all levels all over the world.
        (including us here and RU MoD and Medea Benjamin in D.C. or investigative reporters in Indonesia or local NGOs in the Philippines.)

        NATO is cancer. It always was.

        * * *

        “Jonathan McCormick – Nicolai Petro on Ukraine’s prospects: If something happens in Kiev, it will be sudden and dramatic”

        (Cross-posted from Štandard (Slovakia) May 12, 2024″

        End of interview:

        Isn’t it more in Russia’s interest not to subsume Ukraine, but rather to keep it as a separate state that can serve as a buffer between Russia and NATO?

        Well the interesting thing about that is that Ukraine is being offered a curious combination of security and economic prosperity: security by Russia agreeing to the current borders – guaranteed also by a number of other countries – and prosperity by membership in the EU.

        Which Russia will not object to?

        Will not object to, right. That was part of the Istanbul accords as well. It’s an interesting strategy, because what it ultimately does, oddly enough, is to reconstitute Ukraine in what I have been arguing for, for more than a decade. Actually sixteen years ago – in 2008, my first trip to Ukraine – I gave a talk at Kharkiv University, which was later published. And I said: Ukraine needs to be a bridge between Russia and the West. And by linking the essential security and economic interests of Russia and Europe in Ukraine, it effectively constitutes Ukraine as that bridge.

        #99457 Reply

          “No to NATO” event in D.C.

          German MP Sevim Dagdelen from there with a text – also as speech – see in the embedded video below at TC 4:00
          The entire embedded video 2 hours long, including a panel + lectures

          “75 Years of NATO = 75 Years of Denial”
          German parliamentarian Sevim Dagdelen says for NATO, denial of its true nature is part of the essence of the organization.

          #99472 Reply


            I assume most germans support Nato but is the support in decline or viewed more critically?

            In other news:

            Ukrainian forces depleted – NYT

            US officials privately believe it will be impossible for Kiev to win back its lost territories, according to the outlet


            Not really news though, that is what people like us have said for months, year but then we were only called putin-apologists, Putinversteher etc.

            #99476 Reply

              As every day go by, the EU project turning more and more authoritaian and irrational

              EU could ‘end’ Hungary’s presidency – Politico

              The European Union could revoke Hungary’s presidency of the bloc over Prime Minister Viktor Orban’s trip to Moscow, Politico EU has reported, citing diplomatic sources.


              This is something akin to what the Soviet union leadership might do, imagine a Soviet union rep. reaching out to the west trying to create better relationship and then this representative is then shamed, condemned and stripped from any rights by the soviet ledership. But SOviet union is no more but today EU use the same disgusting tactics to silence, slam, curb any effort to create peace between east/west.

              #99479 Reply

                2. Confidence in Zelenskyy and support for Ukraine

                The share of people with confidence in Zelenskyy differs considerably across countries in Europe and North America. Confidence is highest in Sweden, where eight-in-ten have confidence in him. About two-thirds or more in Canada, the Netherlands and the UK also express confidence. However, six-in-ten or more in Greece, Hungary and Italy do not have confidence in Ukraine’s president.


                Of course my country is worse, haha, 8 in 10 here apparently have confidence in Zelensky!? Senseless. But then you understand the type of hysterical propaganda going on here daily for Ukraine, it is insane.
                This small poll also show the difference between the North and Global South attitude towards Ukraine.

                #99480 Reply


                  I really don´t know and it is not possible to make a genuine assessment of what Germans think about NATO. Most surveys made available as such I don´t take seriously. They are conducted with expected results as a PR tool. Second since people are constantly lied to by 90% of MSM their views are highly manipulated. What we probably do know: In general since 2022 NATO is viewed more favourably by more people than before, when dismantling of NATO was not an uncommon view. However the population is highly split on this issue in the light of the Ukraine War. And this split of course is complementary with NATO PR and how people view this PR. If they are against it they are against NATO.If they are in favour of the PR they are in favour of NATO. So these are opinions not built on structural independently acquired knowledge and serious questions of geopolitics.

                  German MP Sevim Dagdelen´s new book about NATO is pretty popular, the public libraries have it in high numbers most issues in use constantly. The shift of how public looks at NATO has been in the works for 20 years as a “counter-revolution” to the anti-war movement. If one looks at it in such a broad term it might become more mundane a phenomenon and less puzzling – and is easier to contend with. This is simply a battle over hearts and minds.
                  If you told people 24/7 that NATO is a lying war-mongering fascist brute and has always been, not just between 2001 and 2021 and then “suddenly” over night changed, of course 90% of Germans would be against NATO.

                  #99488 Reply

                    These 50 seconds of utter hypocrisy and genocidal dishonesty of Madame Kallas are enough to see what we are dealing with when its about EU and NATO.


                    A few comments there even appeared to be surprisingly sane (I have seen worse especially by diplomats who like to spend time on Twitter).

                    This is the idea: Create a complete fiction, a total falsification of the major historical picture – one where there is only good v. evil. And then push the lie. 365.
                    (What is Kallas actually complaining about? She does the same!)

                    With other words, practice the absolutism of fascist thinking which only knows one answer: WE ARE RIGHT. AND IF YOU DO NOT FOLLOW ORDERS YOU WILL DIE.
                    Of course it has to be properly packaged for the public.

                    This is actually horrifying because you realize there is no talking to these people.
                    They are out for your scalp.

                    And that´s why folks like Craig, or Hans von Sponeck, or Craig Mokhiber, or the records of Wikileaks, or Clare Daley, or Sevim Dagdelen and many others are so important and thus under attack. They lend major authority to the cause questioning this pseudo legitimacy.

                    #99489 Reply

                      I don’t know where this war will drive us, what kind of escalation will happen next, or will we all as humans be exterminated in global super-duper nukes explosion in the end.
                      Just want to share my small personal observation from here:
                      This time I travelled to Moscow by train. Had a lot of talk with random fellow travelers, including military.
                      People here are calm and determined and decisive.
                      They know what is going on, they know the background, they know what to do.
                      It’s also pretty allright with our morals, re. ukrainians, I highly value this informed and humane attitude. Informed part makes people sad and angry, humane part makes people react decently to what is going on. I mean nobody celebrates deaths or makes ugly as-if-funny remarks.
                      Much releived to see this with my own eyes. Hope the war ends soon.

                      #99495 Reply

                        thx for that.
                        I might oversimplify but we are “safe” due to, alas, RU WMDs.
                        I am saying this as a staunch supporter of getting rid of any WMDs.
                        But yes, what can you do, if the other “guy” wants to take you out and there is no way of talking it over.

                        #99499 Reply


                          Thanks for the link to Kallas.
                          Sigh, she is like a copy of the equally awful von Der Leyen: totally cocksure of herself, arrogant, dangerous and obviously full of conspiracy theories. I assume Margareth Thatcher is the idol for these ladies.
                          I tried to google that alleged evil Gryomko tactics and found nothing isntead I found quite good reviews of Gromyko’s diplpmatic skills.

                          In the end of the day Kallas is just a brainwashed estonian taking all the horror stories she heard since a child by her parents about the evil russians and now use it in her childish crusade against the “moscovite”. One wonder what more warmongering, senseleess, conspiracy-laden views she have on Russia but do not dare to voice in public.

                          #99504 Reply


                            There were a few more comments on Kallas argueing that she in fact quoted correctly.
                            Eventually see:

                            But that is beside the point.

                            The true nature of what she said without of course pronouncing it: To Kallas/EU negotiations mean simply one thing and one thing only: We inform Russia about our terms and Russia accepts. THAT is her understanding of negotiation!

                            That´s not diplomacy. She demands subjugation under EU/NATO rule. It´s neo-imperialism of the most primitive kind plain and simple. And in the light of military realities it is even incompetent and dumb as hell.

                            Because what Gromyko simple described was the substance of negotiations in general. There is nothing new about that. It´s what Mearsheimer said a million times, it´s what Sachs said a million times, what Petro said a million times.

                            Even more so that Gromyko was dealing with a superior adversary during a period not known as “Cozy Peace” but “Cold War”.

                            I am not even getting into the legalities here, which are completely left out of any of this fake discussion of hers, that NATO with its actions is violating the Paris Charta to resolve problems peacefully, or that sanctions decided upon outside UN-GA are illegal. Or, as we all heard ad nauseam by now, how NATO broke promises and deals of non-expansion again and again. There is new evidence on this published by NSA btw (the NGO not the “NSA”)

                            p.s. WHITE HOUSE yesterday:

                            Following discussions ahead of the NATO Summit, the governments of the United States and Germany released the following joint statement:

                            The United States will begin episodic deployments of the long-range fires capabilities of its Multi-Domain Task Force in Germany in 2026, as part of planning for enduring stationing of these capabilities in the future. When fully developed, these conventional long-range fires units will include SM-6, Tomahawk, and developmental hypersonic weapons, which have significantly longer range than current land-based fires in Europe. Exercising these advanced capabilities will demonstrate the United States’ commitment to NATO and its contributions to European integrated deterrence.

                            Someone pinch me please.

                            What on earth are “developmental hypersonic weapons”? After NATO admitted a few weeks ago after the Paris Air Show that the US is decades away from hypersonics:

                            “Elusive hypersonic arms need Western teamwork, NATO researcher says”
                            PARIS — Hypersonic weapons are likely still decades away from fielding, and the requisite research is best carried out collaboratively among Western nations, according to Kerstin Huber, executive officer for applied vehicle technology at NATO’s Science and Technology Organization.

                            #99506 Reply

                              This concures with Tatyana´s line basically, from Larry Johnson´s blog, mainly quoting John Helmer (who however I am often skeptical). But here he does make clear it is intended – as of now – as a provocation *only*

                              John Helmer, a Western correspondent living in Moscow, aptly captures the Russian mood:

                              American, British and Canadian troops in NATO’s forward bases in Poland, Latvia, and Lithuania are being told to prepare for deployment to the Ukraine next year. They are also being warned to expect to fight under heavy Russian artillery, missile, guided bomb, and drone strikes.

                              This message is also intended to slip into the hands of Russian military intelligence and find its way to the Kremlin. There, Moscow sources believe, the intelligence is interpreted as provocation — part of the US and NATO scheme to escalate NATO attacks in the Black Sea and deep into Russian territory, in order to encourage Russian counter-attacks against NATO targets, triggering thereby Article Five of the NATO Treaty and collective NATO force intervention to follow.

                              Additionally, Russian sources interpret the intelligence as confirming that the US will not allow capitulation and replacement of Vladimir Zelensky and his regime in Kiev — so no denazification, which is one of the two main objectives of the Special Military Operation. Also, no peace terms will be countenanced short of Russian withdrawal from Crimea and the four regions of Novorossiya, and the military defeat of the Russian Army. So, no demilitarization, the second of Russia’s long-term security objectives.

                              Most of the NATO crowd, at least outwardly, is unconcerned with Russia’s capacity to escalate and NATO’s corresponding impotence to respond. The final message of this summit is already baked and ready to be delivered. NATO is not altering course and is not disposed to seek any peaceful resolution with Russia. The Russians understand that and are ramping up accordingly.

                              #99517 Reply

                                The baltics again…
                                When Russia jail whoever it is all over the western MSM, condemnations etc but when a woman in Latvia comes out as supporter of Russia – right or wrong, she is sent to jail and no one in the west will know about it:

                                The Riga City Court in Latvia has sentenced pro-Russian activist Elena Kreile to three years in prison on charges of publicly displaying support for Moscow and its military operation in Ukraine.


                                #99521 Reply

                                  It is is disturbing that the obviously cognitively decrepit Mr Biden hold the key to end both Israel’s massacre in Gaza and the war in Ukraine. Or have some military command taken over? Biden reminds me of the often too old rulers of Soviet, now the Americans become the same laughing stock:

                                  Biden confuses Zelensky with Putin (VIDEO)

                                  During a press conference later that evening, Biden mixed up his vice president, Kamala Harris, with his 2024 election rival and Republican frontrunner, former President Donald Trump. “Look I wouldn’t have picked Vice President Trump to be vice president if she was not qualified to be president,” he told reporters.


                                  Biden’s handlers guiding him with flash cards – media

                                  The 81-year-old president reportedly needs detailed illustrated instructions to enter and exit rooms


                                  Russia claimed earlier that they rather see Biden as president than Trump because Biden is more “predictable”.
                                  I do not know about that…

                                  #99549 Reply

                                    The socialdemocratic opposition here in Sweden now demand that Hungary is stripped from their EU council presidency. Why? Because Orban traveled to China and Russia for diplomacy:

                                    This the socialdemocrats that just like Germany took a stance against US invasion of Iraq in 2003. Today, they would along Germany, I bet, be the first to aid americans in another illegal US invasion.

                                    Why is that socialdemocrats/labour/German SPD, even some mainstream leftists parties, have becaome so warmongering past couple of years? When I hear/see politicians from this crowd there is lkike no difference when they speak on Gaza, Ukraine, Iran, Israel etc and it is the left/socialdemocrats/labour that have turned Right, not the other way around.

                                    In Sweden the media have become very right-wing past decades, perhaps that have a reason for the indoctrination of the soaring right-wing world-view, how is it in Germany AG? Have the media becaome more harsh, right-wing etc there too?

                                    #99552 Reply


                                      yes same here. The demise of the independence of media is slowly destroying free speech and cultured discourse and thus society itself. And of course like with everything else it all started at the economic front with papers loosing their independence economically.
                                      Of course 25 years ago – (it´s almost 25 years now, good God, it feels like yesterday) – a certain group of people was still alive. Though I do not share the belief that you need to experience a WW to be against war.
                                      (Because if that were true we wouldn´t have had the arms race e.g.)

                                      It´s about propaganda plain and simple.

                                      And keep in mind: In Afghanistan which was before Iraq Germany participated in the even more illegal war of NATO. (There was zero connection between Kabul and Bin Laden and the Taliban had no role in intern. affairs whatsoever.)
                                      So “paradise” never existed. (I am saying this as someone who participated in those post 9/11 protests.)

                                      We were “lucky” with protests over Iraq because the MSM at that point in time had no other villain big enough to report on than Bush. Had Putin already set a path for emancipation by then we might have had a different public stance even though the illegality had been the same.
                                      The mindset of European supremacy has always been in place. You just have to trigger it.

                                      #99569 Reply

                                        A remarkable small news item on Bucha:

                                        During a current trial in Prague a Czech mercenary admitted executions by a Ukrainian unit in April 2022 “punishing” “traitors” after RUs had left the area.

                                        “»We were the firing squad«
                                        When a mercenary chats: Trial in Prague sheds new light on events in the Ukrainian Bucha”

                                        Surprise, surprise that nothing of this came out during any of the preceding, huge investigations by the WaPo or the NYT or the UN.

                                        #99572 Reply


                                          Good points, the exact same thing happend here too, the more independent media vanished for a more right-wing and neoliberal world view. They have taken over like 99% of editorials here and that makes indoctrination so easy because there is no alternative for regular people so they believe everything what these people are writing.

                                          “The mindset of European supremacy has always been in place. You just have to trigger it.”

                                          Right on! And that is what is so dangerous, just like that, the European could turn to a warmongering savage.

                                          #99573 Reply


                                            Being naive I did expect Sweden to be more mature. I mean “Europe” as such is no real thing. It never was. So how come that Sweden which has so often been regarded as an honest broker has turned into the same warmongering entity as all the others.
                                            Of course in hindsight you can always argue, the writing was on the wall with the Swedish military being Russophobe and such. But there were sane traditions, too, I guess. Those just disappeared.
                                            In Germany they like to say it started with Covid “regime”. But I don´t buy that. And even if there were authoritarian tactics becoming apparent post 2020, Sweden chose an entirely different path on the issue. Which interestingly was very well covered by the correspondent of German “leftist” flagshhip, TAZ (Tageszeitung), which now has turned into a warmongering propaganda outlet, and also had been attacking Germans who were doubtful of German response to Covid (in contrast to their weighed reporting on Sweden.)
                                            Odd and frightening.

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                                          Reply To: Ukraine (Date: Nov. 2023)
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