test

Everyone must be out shopping Craig.

"The ticking bomb scenario is a Hollywood myth"

Given that many detainees are held for months - and in the case of Guantanemo, years - any of these mythical time bombs would have exploded ages ago.

Does this indicate the leadership has decided to shift the attention away from direct torture by MI5 and MI6 to accepting it from the CIA, and legitimising that part now ?

Not far-fetched after targeted extrajudicial killings of citizens by the UK police have been accepted (Menezes and Canary Wharf cases).

Craig

Thanks to Binyamin Mohamed's legal team, yourself and others it's all starting to unravel.

Today's Indie is headling the story broken by the Telgraph:

"Intelligence services reveal concern on 15 'torture' cases"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/intelligence-services-reveal-concern-on-15-torture-cases-1656167.html

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5063053/Torture-inquiry-reveals-15-new-cases.html

Watch out for people distancing themselves from Jack Straw, Scarlett et. al. over the coming weeks...

You may get a more serious hearing than we were fearing!

Craig

"by accepting torture material for "Careful evaluation" we create a market for it"

This is I think a telling observation. The existence of a "market" for torture material is something we have heard little about. Yet it clearly exists, and it may be an idea worth pursuing.

I wonder, has anyone has researched how many of the people rendered to Guantanamo or elsewhere were "sold" for a bounty? The temptation for an Afghani taxi driver or Pakistani shopkeeper or whoever to sell the name of someone for $10,000 must have been very great...

Duly posted to Indymedia UK.

I have a sneaky and somewhat optimistic feeling that you might have these bastards on the run now, Craig. Very well done!

Craig -

There are some libellous comments about you on Guido Fawkes' blog which you may not have seen. The thread is "Political Class Starting to Feel Public's Anger.

By their subtleties shall you know them.

By the way, Jack Straw is now in the cross-hairs of his UK:FCO and Crown Dependency responsibilities. Surely a good fix and hopefully with predictable results.

well done Craig and watch yourself in London, they might just want to stop this story from developing, the ill winds of poltical intrigue.

Thank you for holding a light up in the darkness, Craig.

It sounds trite, but it really is the case: 'An injustice to one is an injustice to all.'

This psychopathically callous and duplicitous approach to torture that's employed by our government is the same psychopathy that permits and encourages the needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of third world children from malnutrition, the conning of decent good citizens into supporting illegal wars, the depleted uranium bombing of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children, the deaths of scores if not hundreds of thousands of decent UK citizens at the hands of those they really ought to be able to trust above all. RIP NHS victims in Mid Staffs, Nottingham, Liverpool, Bristol, London, Medway, Newcastle, Edinburgh and so on. We hear only the very smear of the tip of the iceberg because the sick NHS spends more on spin than it does on finding cures.

RIP all who die at the hands of this institutionalised insanity.

May the rest of us enjoy sufficient good health and safety to keep burning those lights.

Well Craig, I guess they had better give you your career back now before you sue the crap out of them!

It is clear to anyone that by using a product (whatever it may be) the user is creating and sustaining the incentives for production. Our government has been doing that for torture derived intelligence for some years.

Complicity is clearly proven. The government have been acting illegally. Does the law count for anything in the UK - lets wait and see.

I don't know why you are so obsessed with this Craig. We didn't torture anyone but we may have had information from other governments from people who had been tortured. So what. That's probably been happening since the dawn of time. If my family had been blown up on 9/11 or 7/7 it wouldn't bother me if some jihadists had a taste of their own medicine. Get off your high horse. There are far worse things happening in homes up and down the country - Baby P is just one recent example.

erica lays out the probable government blueprint i pointed to earlier.
The propaganda is based on fears for personal safety,
used to justify the most horrific attacks on people's safety
by creating confused divisions with false flag operations.

Thanks, ruth, for sharing your knowledge about secret (inter-)state operations.

I agree with erica that there are very bad things happening up and down the country; one of which is imprisonment of entirely innocent people to hide state crime This can be defined as psycholgical torture.

erica: I suggest you read some of Craig's earlier posts on this matter. They may help you understand its full significance and why Craig is on his 'high horse'.

Most people agree that torture is valueless as a form of genuine intelligence gathering. People will say anything to make the torture stop.

This however can be the very point of torture. As Craig can demonstrate, false confessions obtained through torture are being used to add substance to this notion of evil jihadists, so helping to justify, prolong and intensify the phoney 'War on Terror'.

It's perhaps a little more significant than you think.

Erica evidently belongs to the 'all's fair in love and war' brigade. I really don't see how anyone can condone torture whilst proclaiming that they stand for freedom, democracy and human dignity.

And Erica certainly isn't entitled to speak for the victims or the survivors of 7/7 or 9/11 - one very articulate survivor of the former, Rachel North, would vehemently disagree with her.

There is no equivalence between torture and cases like Baby P [whether the latter is "far worse" or not]. Torture, and collusion with it, is perpetrated whether legally or illegally by agents of the State, acting on behalf of us all. Child abuse is the personal responsibility of those who do it, and is not endorsed by society.

I for one am heartily ashamed if the UK has participated in, or even tacitly colluded with, torture. Erica would do well to take an elementary course in ethics before bothering to post here again.

An encouraging piece of news:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/29/guantanamo-bay-torture-inquiry

Who cares? As far as I am concerned, if there is a remotest chance or suspicion that any person is involved in any terrorist organisation or activity, then they are fair game. I personally would go further and they would never be seen again!

"Who cares?" You obviously don't! "If there is the remotest chance or suspicion...they are fair game [and] would never be seen again".

What a charming society you aspire to live in. Argentina under the colonels, or Chile under Pinochet, sound just your cup of tea. There are still plenty such places. Why don't you find one and go there?

erica/Steve

By saying the things you have said...You become that which you say you detest.

anticant

Do you not find it strange that two posters suddenly appear trying to appease torture,trying to defend the indefensible.

@erica - your support for state-sanctioned torture of suspected jihadists would only be consistent if you are prepared to agree that, should your parents or your siblings be accused of political extremism, that they should be tortured too.

Ditto @Steve, who doesn't even insist on probable cause - just add them to the "disappeared". For you it seems that the cold reality of having relatives vanish, and not know for decades which unmarked grave they ended up in, is (a) abstract and (b) would only happen to someone else.

@anticant picks a good illustration of Pinochet's regime in Chile. Having ousted the previously democratically elected leader, the murderous dictator was installed with American support and complicity. Steve, you should read up on the numbers, and the manner of the executions, of the ordinary people like you who were taken en masse to the main football stadium and tortured, or shot in the back of the head.

People like erica and Steve lack the imagination to see themselves in the shoes of victims of injustice, false accusations and torture.

The Rule of Law has been slowly evolved over centuries to minimise such injustices, and to ensure that no-one is treated as guilty until their guilt has been proved in open court. Even so, it was still far from adequate even before this cowardly government drove a coach and horses through it after 9/11 - not to mention inciting everyone to snoop and snitch on their neighbours.

Whether or not erica and Steve wish to live in an East German Stasi-style State, I most certainly don't.

Yes, there ARE terrorist threats but these need tackling in an entirely different and more focused way.

From George Dutton.
"Do you not find it strange that two posters suddenly appear trying to appease torture,trying to defend the indefensible."
Absolutely, I would say it's government interference. If they can't bring Craig's blog site down, they manipulate it.
The two commenters' tone is very similar to Eddie's.

Let's not get too paranoid. This still is a free country [just about], and champions of liberal democracy and free speech should welcome opposing views - especially when they are so puerile and easy to refute.

If these two really are government plants, they certainly show up the threadbare nature of the official line on terrorism.

To confirm Craig's point about the pointlessness of torture, I heard this true story:
Two victims of torture both confessed to the murder of a third party. but when they were confronted with eachother, face to face, by their torturers, they both said they had never met the other man. So they started to fight eachother about who was the real murderer, which was the point on which their release from torture had come to depend.

Witnesses have proved that the U.S. have planted many market-place bombs in Iraq to sow the seeds for civil war. Questions remain over the involvement of the U.S. in 9/11. Steve and Erica use context to justify torture, without showing any evidence of the context. What a waste of time. There are many aspects of the context which a fair judge could bear in mind, if we could bring the perpetrators of all these crimes to court.

In the real world we progress from bankcruptcy to grand bargain, from a few nuclear arsenals to a multiplicity of them, from secret lies to open lies. The JCHR know that the game is up and Craig's testimony is dynamite for their public condemnation of torture.

What is coming up New Labour is a deal: If you the public refrain from dissent against us your trusted leaders, we will promise to give up dirty tricks and genocide and torture.

Yes , like we always let our children blackmail us into buying them sweets instead of good food. New Labour doesn't own this country and its good reputation. We, the British people will tell them what the deal is, and it doesn't include torture.

The truth is slow to come out isn't it. But the revelations are nothing more than what most of us suspected all along. It is surely time that the bliars are truly revealed for all of their mandacity in telling "big ones" for the sake of some notion they have of protecting "freedom" and "democracy". Where to next for Jack Straw? And, by the way, that was no mean feat Craig. Well done and thank you Craig from all of us.

Craig I go along with what Sam wrote:

Thank you Craig for holding a light up in the darkness!

You know what I think? I think that they WANT people to know that they torture. Yep. Of course they know that the 'evidence' is not credible. They wanna be known as badass. I realised this when I watched that disgusting piece of propaganda 'Taxi To The Dark Side'. That movie had nothing in it that had not been in the New York Times or whatever. And it was very slick. A little too slick. Had no soul if you know what I mean. And they miraculously managed to get John Woo on it and then proceeded to interview him with a feather duster. There were other examples but those ones should do it. That's what's happening. Helps to subdue the masses in times of civil unrest y'know. This has been comin' for years.

Steve wrote:
"Who cares? As far as I am concerned, if there is a remotest chance or suspicion that any person is involved in any terrorist organisation or activity, then they are fair game. I personally would go further and they would never be seen again!"

Sounds suspiciously like the decoy words of a pre-emptive strike of a terrorist jihadist to me; ok book him Dano (or what ever the equivalent for Cuba is).

With your logic Steve, you will only be as safe as your enemies are weak.

I know someone who says Erica-things like "We didn't torture anyone but we may have had information from other governments from people who had been tortured. So what. That's probably been happening since the dawn of time".

The person I know is ex civil service and for them the problem is that this is the simple, unvarnished truth. "Yes, it really is like that. This happens. So?".

The person I know is nice enough to always explain that, although he's saying this kind of thing, he doesn't himself agree with it. I suppose it's hard, when it has been one's accepted reality.

"Erica", on the other hand, is obviously trying to be gung-ho about it, like an episode of 24.

Erica! Throw off your mental chains! I expect it has only happened *periodically* since the dawn of time, and then only in certain societies. I doubt the Swedes go much in for this kind of thing, for example.

As for the other guy, he sounds like a joker.

PS As far as I can see, among many other reasons, this kind of thing's happening because the UK needs to keep its reputation as the USA's second-in-command and its seat on the Security Council.

What are we scared of? What would happen if we did without either?.

Good perspective from anticant, thank you.

I sense a change - a turning point away from the ocean of depravity that our culture has become. Corruption is being exposed and Good People are standing up against it. Its easy to walk away and just accept the slide into evil. People from all political persuasions are demanding change. We really do not like living in a world where our leaders are so disgusting that they embrace torture. I am astonished that we have sunk so low. Things may get considerably worse before they get better. But we must support men of courage such as Craig Murray - who stand up against the tide of filth.

Torture happens in the UK too. My 15 year old daughter was subjected to it. She was walking home with her friends after an end of summer party in the local park. The police turned up with their meat wagons. All her friends ran for it. She had done absolutely nothing wrong and stood firm as she was smashed to the ground and had a knee in her back whilst being handcuffed and taken to the police cells to be interrogated until 3:00am.

She refused to give her real name and address. The police tortured her for 5 hours trying to obtain it. But she refused to tell them.

They wouldn't let me see her for over 4 hours. I of course did all the wrong things - and signed all the papers they put in front of me - just to get my daughter out of hell. We went to the official warning - and sucked up to the police - telling them what a brilliant job they were doing. We felt ashamed - until we discussed our experience with other parents - and found exactly the same thing had happenned to their teenage children. All in the name of Blair's war on terror and collecting eveyone's DNA.

Should we Protest - or should we allow such depravity to continue?

opmoc

http://tinyurl.com/dy23rx

"My 15 year old daughter was subjected to it. "

Opmoc, that is outrageous! I'm lost for words - almost...how shocking for your daughter, I hope she's recovered?

I hope you're speaking with IPCC?

But to erica, and all those shoulder-shruggers: THIS is why Craig needs to take a stand, this is why we need to support him.

Those who sanction the torture of foreigners in far off countries, are the same people who licence the police to torture our own good people in our own neighbourhoods. It's all part of a very sick piece.

Again, injustice for one is injustice for all.

Duly posted on 'Afghanistan War' and 'Wolves In The City'.

Sam,

This was over 3 years ago. My daughter wasn't the slightest intimidated - in fact it made her much more emotionally stronger. She has been offered a place at a brilliant university - and I am almost certain she will get the grades to get in.

I am old and soft. I can't be bothered to fight for it.

But I do want the DNA records resulting from my daughter's arrest deleted

My daughter is now classed as a Criminal - although no charges were ever brought against her.

She cannot just go to America on a tourist visa

Because unless she confesses the truth about her arrest - and applies in advance for a visa to America - which can take months to get approved...

If she just arrives in an American airport - they already have her on file.

They are likely to either arrest her - like they did my nephew - who was just visiting his sister who was a Maths Professor at an American Universtity - and after interrogation be sent back home at his own expense

Or - if she gets Mouthy and Tells The Cunts To Go And Stick Their Gun Up Their Fucking Arse - be rendered to Guantanamo Bay for Torture and Interrogation

You might assume I am White, English and Working Class

Cos I am White, English and Working Class

But what if I had actually married one of my first proper Girlfriends?

She Is Black, English and Working Class. Her Parents were born in Pakistan

And so if my Children were BLACK and Looked Like Muslim Terrorists.....

I mean - do you understand what I am trying to Say?

We are all humans on this planet

And I Will Not Take Fascism From Any Cunt

And Neither Will My Daughter

She Will Stand Up For Her Human Rights

As Should We All Regardless Of Our Race and Colour

Tony

Personally I think Jack Straw is a piece of Excrement

And Blair is Completely INSANE - but very clever - I try and dismiss him because he comes from over the border

But I have to deal with The piece of shit Jack Straw - because He Represents The Lovely People of Blackburn

Look I can take the Southern Tossers No Problem

But I do Not Expect Fascists To Come From Lancashire

Tony

In the 1980s Mrs T said society didn't exist. That means us, southern tossers and northern tossers. Today society has come back with a vengeance to tell these politicians who think democracy means that we hand over power to them to do what they like without any accountability, that we, society, hold the power in this country, and we choose to delegate the day to day running of things to professionals so that we can get on with our lives in peace.
We choose to put our money in the banks so that we can get on with creating wealth, not so that the financial institutions can eat every piece of flesh out of our earnings.
From now on we will tell them what the deal is. From now on there is no such thing as government. It doesn't exist.

"It is clear to anyone that by using a product (whatever it may be) the user is creating and sustaining the incentives for production. Our government has been doing that for torture derived intelligence for some years."

This is the perfect line to pursue. After all, exactly the same logic is employed in the government rhetoric on The War on Drugs and The War on Child Porn, etc. Is the UK government to become a customer of regimes that torture? Are we to form partnership with the most heinous regimes on the planet in order to battle... the bad guys? How much will this habit cost, both in financial and diplomatic terms and who will watch the torture? Will Jack Straw be sent videos? Maybe Jacqui Smith's husband can try a drop o' the hard stuff after his blue movies...

And are we also going to explain to the British public that they too are now 'fair game' (in the words of Steve/Eddie) and may be drafted into this industry at a moment's notice, to do their duty, while walking down the wrong street in Prague, Gdansk, Milan, etc, wherever the goon squad falls upon you and whisks you to the nearest base for your waiting flight to Syria or wherever.

Very well done indeed Craig!

Many watch your progress with great interest and wish you all the best.

Well done as always, Craig and Andrew, for keeping this issue in the light.