"It was quite simply true that vastly more of the huge amount of public money which underpins the economy of Blackburn, ended up benefiting the immigant rather than the poor white community."

This is only part of the story, Craig. As well as the immigrant community the white middle class community benefitted from the public money.

Think of health, education and other public services. Think of who gets paid for providing these services.

Can somebody explain to me how Labour have only abandoned the white working class, as opposed to the whole working class?

One step at a time. The immediate need is to get rid of this despicable government and replace it with a government of national salvation which transcends party and is pledged to restore honest, transparent government. Under our biased electoral system, the next party in office most likely the Conservatives - will almost certainly have an inflated majority, but this could be kept within bounds by tactical voting.

What is needed is a national tactical voting campaign which will advise which opposition candidate has the most chance of ousting New Labour in every constituency throughout the country, and will then mount a high profile publicity campaign urging everyone who wants rid of New Labour to abandon political tribalism and vote for that person. This can and should be organised primarily through the internet.

The next step would be to campaign for proportional representation to be enacted during the lifetime of the next parliament. If the LibDems were to make it crystal clear that they would only join in a coalition government which pledged to enact PR without delay, a hung parliament and a Tory/LibDem coalition might be the best short-term solution.

Craig is right; he can only wade out into the politically incorrect waters of inner city politics on the soft sand of the decency of the British working class. He is surrounded by dangerous rocks covered by slimy seaweedy politicians like Blears and Straw. There is a feeling in the Muslim community that New Labour has gone too far, both because of immigration restrictions and also the violence in Pakistan. The Tories do not represent the interests of business, although that propaganda has attracted Asians to them. They represent the racist prejudices of the propertied classes.

I remember being mortified as a child by the expensiveness of my father's firm car. He was a director of an engineering company. Today's children would probably just like to have a father in the post feminist world.
An expensive car is not a substitute for a family at all. The decency of Muslim family life and the decency of the working class, combined together would be a serious threat to the scumbags of New Labour and Tory spin.

As backup to draconian laws and enforcement methods and electoral fraud, the BNP and UKIP will be promoted by the powers that be, like scary dogs. However we all now know that the New Labour and Tory parties are going to give us 20% tax rises in the very near future, so we may as well vote for a party with integrity even though it will have to tax us the same. At least some of the army of overpaid government jobs will be axed to reduce our taxes a little.

The white working and middle classes watch whats happening. They are not stupid.

Try to get an appointment at your Doctors and you´ll be told unless it´s an emergency you can´t have one for three days. When you finally walk into the waiting room, it´s full of foreigners. Same with A&E.

We spend our whole lives living in one area. Our family and friends have always been there and one by one they begin to move away.

Finally you have to move away too, as you are the only white face for miles and it´s you that are getting the dirty looks and the racist abuse (except we can´t say anything because we are white).

Not that moving is a total tragedy in the end as the crime rate has risen so significantly that we become afraid to go out at night and the schools have all become "unchristian".

Infact, many of them are now wholly Islamic and it would be unfair for an English child to be the only white kid.

The dole office is the final straw. Overheard conversations of Poles claiming for their kids in Poland and Asians with 6 or 7 children expecting the state to keep and house them even though they´ve never done a jots work.

We have become the worlds dumping ground and the white working and middle class are sick of paying for it. We didn´t get asked if it was OK or we would have said NO!

We are not racist but feel as though our wishes are the last on the list.

I think it´s unfair. Most have worked all their lives to make this country what it was (before Labour destroyed it). We paid into the system, just as our fathers and grandfathers did and get nothing back from it.

Do you know how hard it is as a white person to get anything back out of the system when you need help? Practically impossible, we are the wrong colour!

The only people gaining from the middle and working classes are the bankers, politicians and the immigrants.

The government have let far too many in, far too quickly. They were not prepared for the amount of EU citizens that would want to enter the UK and we already had more than enough non-EU people in and they still haven´t stopped.

Talk about globing warming, too many people and we will never get our carbon footprint down.

Added to that we allow terrorists to walk around free sponging on benefits. We have nearly a million illegals which the government won´t deport and too many asylum seekers wanting to come here rather than stay in the first country that they are safe in (which I believe is the rule).

That´s why they all wait at Calais, because we are only happen to give them taxpayers money for doing sod all while we get up for work in a country that has been bankrupted!

The other crucial policy the BNP have is to leave the EU. I happen to think we have given too much power to the EU and should become self governing again.

Sharia Law is not a favourite of ordinary folk either, so that should be confined to Islamic countries and those who choose to live amongst us, should abide by our laws.

We want our traditions and customs encouraged and nurtured. Immigrants should have to learn about them and respect them. Hijabs should be banned, they are regarded with suspicion by the British and have also now been used for criminal activities such as holding up shops.

That´s why I and many of my friends are voting BNP and stuff the main parties who don´t have the balls to address the real issues that worry the WHITE INDIGENOUS BRITON (that´s right, I´m not afraid to say it, I´m proud of my heritage).

Racism is such an ugly thing.

The pot calling the kettle un-white.

Fascism isn't what you believe in, fascism is what you impose upon others to believe.

If you call a spade a spade, then you may be racist, but you are not a fascist. To be a fascist you would have to make it the law to call a spade a spade.

Chris,

I don't think Rachel is an instinctive racist. But she has been pushed into adopting positions that are racist from a feeling that her interests have been excluded (sorry, Rachel, I realise that sounds patronising).

So a number of complaints that are perfectly genuine about her own access to healthcare and services, lead into urban myth about robbers disguised in hijab, etc.

Simply dismissing people like Rachel as racist, implying there is no justice behind any of their complaints, is wrong.

There is more information to add which may affect her attitudes - for example asylum seekers are stupidly forbidden to work, which most of them would much prefer to do.

But the stress for public services of added demand from recent immigrants is not mythical. And the racial ghettoisation of areas and schools is very true indeed in Blackburn and many of the post-industrial towns of the North. That has involved displacement of people, and consequent unhappiness.

In four months living in Blackburn, I never once saw a mixed group of Asian and white friends socially in town. Mixed in workplaces, yes a bit. Socially - never. There are real problems to address. A curt dismissal of the complainers as racist doesn't help.

The BNP has nothing to offer. I believe Rachel is right to say that there are at least a million illegal immigrants. But it is practically impossible without introducing a Nazi state to deport a million people.

More radical approaches are needed than currently on offer. My number one priority would be to make faith schools of all faiths illegal, and to mix state schools forcibly, as bussing did in the US.

OK, I'm politically quite naive, but the neatest solution would seem to be to create a new party in the style of the original labour ethos, to bring democracy back to the country.

Obviously to start from scratch would take a few parliamentary terms at the least to get established to the point of being a contender, and that's assuming that the established power base didn't do it's best to nip it in the bud, which they undoubtedly would do, were it to register on their radar. Absence of proportional representation, lack of media access, lack of funding etc would pose challenges probably too great to overcome.

However, how realistic would it be to utilise an existing organisation to shortcut the process? An organisation like the BNP already registers with the public (negative or not, it's well known). It has a small but significant base of support already built in.

The big problem is that they are characterised by attitudes that attract odious views like that of the previous poster 'Rachel'.

Is their membership base so large that a concerted membership drive amongst people who were not aligned with those views couldn't force a realignment of their more unpleasant views?

The establishment would still try to squash it, I assume, but it would be difficult for the media not to cover a deliberate, and genuine move of the underlying attitude of the party, giving the oxygen of publicity no matter how it was distorted, and an existing party machine would be readily in place.

Although I assume (not for certain) that the BNP as it stands would not welcome Muslims and other ethnic groups with open arms, would/could they actually refuse membership? Would it not be tremendous, were it possible to get significant Muslim leaders and other minority groups to sign up? This would force a change within the BNP and would starve NuLab of much of their voter base.

I don't entirely agree with Rachel, but most of the points she makes aren't "racist", are they? She raises problems unadressed by the mainstream parties - more fool they.

Brave of you to post on this subject Craig. I did this week too with the result that one of my commenters emailed me (twice) with the accusation I was a writer of neo-racism amongst other things. All because I commented on the story in the Courier about the Chinese 22 year old woman.

It's so easy to shout racism when discussing various community problems and many good people have become too frightened to speak out about their fears.

Why is it "brave" to speak out against twaddle? Do we really already live in such a culture of fear that people are afraid to say what they honestly think in case some thug beats them up? If so, we are far along the road to fascism, because ultimatly fascists of all stripes seek to control through violence and the threat of violence.

The thing is, it is racist to march about the place spreading ill informed negative stereotyping about non whites with no evidence to back them up. Here's a few from Rachel's post -

"Try to get an appointment at your Doctors and you´ll be told unless it´s an emergency you can´t have one for three days. When you finally walk into the waiting room, it´s full of foreigners. Same with A&E."

Well, I happen to live in a majority white working class area and it still takes me 3 days to get an appointment. How do you know all those people in the waiting room are 'foreigners"? Because they have brown skin? If you don't like immigration I suggest that you have a look at where your doctor or nurse is from.

"...and it´s you that are getting the dirty looks and the racist abuse (except we can´t say anything because we are white)."

Of course this is rubbish and its a standard BNP meme that racial equality and anti hate crime only helps the brown skins and white people 'can't say anything'. Its rubbish, racist abuse is racist abuse whether its white on black or black on white.

"Asians with 6 or 7 children expecting the state to keep and house them even though they´ve never done a jots work."

This is one of those 'no evidence' claims. I suspect at the same time the white working class can't get jobs because all the Asians have been given them.

"Most have worked all their lives to make this country what it was (before Labour destroyed it). We paid into the system, just as our fathers and grandfathers did and get nothing back from it."

Lets get one thing straight. This country got rich and fat off colonialism. This colonialism caused misery across the world yet people are very quick to deny being to blame for that (not unreasonably) yet are quick to claim their entitlement to the consequent advantages of being a citizen of a rich country.

"Do you know how hard it is as a white person to get anything back out of the system when you need help? Practically impossible, we are the wrong colour!"

I know a lot about how hard it is to 'get something back' out of the system as I used to work as welfare rights worker and now unfortunately am in the position of having to claim benefits myself. This is what I know about. I can tell you that it is no easier for a black or Asian person to make a claim than it is for a white person.

Anyway, as always when faced with this type of post I'm losing the will to live.

I don't see much point in pretending that 'Rachel' is not a racist. Most likely she's a seasoned BNP campaigner rather than a member of the 'abandoned white working class' who has been 'forced' by NuLab to reluctantly vote BNP. This is how the BNP campaign, carpet bombing message boards with evidence free claims, its all explained on their website.

Like the Taliban, the blogger named 'Rachel' has delivered a critique of the impact of fundamentalist capitalism on the nation state which is not wholly inaccurate, but like the Taliban her solution is monstrous and she targets entirely the wrong people.

Like so many, she has been a willing dupe.

Does she know that her name is Semitic and comes from a land of brown people?

Perhaps she should join the Taliban.

In fact, the BNP and the Taliban desrve each other. Anyone with a sane mind - of whatever social class - should have no time for either.

I read a lot about BNP fascism.

BNP are to the LEFT of politics - it's all on their website. They believe in even bigger Government. That's the left wing, not the right.

And the biggest fascists around currently sit on the Government benches of the UK Parliament. I fear them a whole lot more than the BNP.

Of course I know the origins of my name! You are under the misapprehension that all BNP supporters are thick of course, stereotyping?

I am also trying hard to hang on to my history, traditions, customs and way of life. A way of life I have known for more than 50 years which has slowly been snatched away from me bit by bit. I had more freedom of speech when I was a teenager than I do in these "progressive" times.

I might also add that as I imagined, I'd get called all sorts of names for just speaking my mind, for just writing what I see and hear.

You are making the mistake of assuming I am a racist. I'm not a racist, I can assure you but what I see and feel subsequently is what thousands of people see and feel.. therein lies your problem and calling people racist will drive them further to the BNP. If I'm being labelled a racist anyway, why not just go and join a racist party!

The sad truth is, we were not prepared for so many immigrants to come to Britain so quickly and it's caused chaos and animosity.

It might not have been so bad if immigrants had made more of an effort to integrate but quite honestly many of them are not interested in becoming British. They create a copy version of their homeland in an area and then expect us to live by their customs if we still have houses that impinge on their "copy homeland".

There are stirrings of racial hatred on the streets (luton in particular) and the more you deny there is a problem, the worse it's going to get.

I'm sick of it all to be honest and none of the three major parties are brave enough to do anything.. but the rise of the BNP will make them think!

Andy,

It is complete rubbish that this country got rich off colnialism. This country got rich off industrialisation.

Imperialism was a net cost to our economy. What it did brilliantly, however, was to redistribute wealth from the ordinary people to the "Imperial class" of colonialists, military officers, arms manufacturers and others.

You can see precisely the same thing happening now in Iraq. There is a huge cost to the average American and Briton, but a huge profit for arms and oil companies etc.

The best exposition is Imperialism by J A Hobson.

The truth about immigration is that over 200, 100, 50 or 20 years, more people have emigrated from this country than into it. We don't have net immigration.

But it is also true that multi-cultural integration has not gone as well as it should. There is ghettoisation, there are separate schools, and well-meaning (sometimes) initiatives to help minoroties leave those at the economic bottom of the white community feeling comparatively unprovided for.

Andy, if you think I'm going to write a thesis with references to back up some of my claims, you're very much mistaken. I could give you figures but you are obviously a labour supporter and are used to their imaginery bookkeeping.

I do have experience myself of some of the things I have mentioned. I have no reason to lie, you don't know me from Eve.... and I have nothing to gain.

My Doctor is a white female by the way, so don't jump to conclusions. They were all foreigners. They either dressed differently to make sure everyone knew or spoke loudly in their own languages. I had plenty of time to listen, I waited almost an hour!

The point I'd like to make is, you can argue with people till you are blue in the face with your holier than thou attitude about how great you think multiculturalism or immigration is, but you won't convince anyone who has already been affected or suffered because of it.

You notice, the more Labour insult the BNP and call them racists, the more popular they become.

We are sick of being called racist. I am a Patriot!

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Craig,

you make an assumption that my comment was directed at Rachel. It could just as easily describe my personal view (which it does) rather than be an attack on anyone in particular :-)

Rachel's new post went up as I was writing the last comment. Rachel, as I was saying, we have net emigration not immigration. But by and large the people leaving are ethnically Anglo-Saxon or Celtic and the people coming are not, so your objection is in fact racist rather than to do with numbers.

Yes, I accept that it is very foolish to pretend no social tensions arise from melding people of different cultures together. And it has not been well handled. But people of different races are just as nice people as any others. We are all the same under the skin. The problems can be solved.

And to vote for a fascist party is really not going to make anything at all get better for anyone, except the leaders of that party who are even worse than the politicians we have already.

However, Rachel must surely know that 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.

That in no way diminishes her right to her views. After all - to badly plagiarise Noam Chomsky - "If I don't believe in freedom of speech for those I despise, I don't believe in it at all."

I've heard the same things for 45 years, the same puerile arguments, no analysis, no historical knowledge, no critique of economics/ imperialism, no contextualisation, just a longing for the simple dualities of good and evil. Goodies and baddies.

"They don't eat our food, they don't dress like us, they smell, they look funny, they don't have our values, they take our jobs, they take the food out of our mouths (but they don't eat it), they steal our women, they didn't fight in the War, you walk into a doctor's surgery and it's all foreigners, they speak more than one language..." blah blah blah. Same old, same old. Variations on a theme. It is impossible to stereotype such people, because they are already parodies.

"Let's go off to Sicily and live in ex-pat condo heaven!"

Those people always say, "I'm not racist, but..."

Yes, you are. Go join a racist party. Blood and soil.

Meanwhile, those with real power and wealth just sit back and laugh. Make people fight one another, that's always what those in power want to achieve. Divide and rule. It's the imperial way.

Culturism is conflated within racism too much and not always identified. They are completely separate concepts. I suspect Rachel is more culturist than racist, as are many people deemed racist. Slightly more understandable than racism, in my view at least, but still pretty unhealthy.

Craig, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that multicultural integration has not gone "as well as it should". How do you think it "should" have gone? How do you think it should have been handled differently? How much assimilation do you think there ahould be, and how much is possible, given the different characteristics and mind-sets of the various groups involved?

I have no difficulty whatsoever with immigration in general. This country has a long and proud history of giving refuge and hospitality to immigrants who have come here to seek a better life - Huguenots, Jews, Chinese,West Indians, Sikhs, Hindus and others. They have enriched the texture of our national life, and contributed notably to our welfare, even though not always welcome (I was a child in the 1930s and remember the almost unconscious antisemitism of those days.)

It cannot realistically be denied, however, that the Muslim immigration of the past thirty years does not fit easily into this pattern. There is undoubtedly less willingness on their part then on that of most other immigrants to blend into traditional British society. This is not a racist issue, even if it suits some of those on both sides of the discussion to distort it as being so; it is about culture, and above all religion.

I certainly don't expect Muslims to abandon their faith or to reject their own customs (where these don't conflict with the law of the land). But unless they are prepared to acknowledge that the great majority of non-Muslims in this country would prefer them to be less stridently self-righteous and to cease their endless pushing for special privileges whilst portraying themselves as 'victims', we really do have a problem which will only get worse unless new attitudes and policies emerge on all sides to deal with it.

And you yah-boo tribalists out there, don't bother with the brickbats. The most sensible thing for us all to do would be to stop the name-calling and address each other's concerns and misconceptions.

Both Mr Murray and anticant have made very valid points. I've addressed the Wahhabi-Salafist-Deobandi infiltration of some parts of Muslim communities in the UK (and globally) elsewhere on this site and elsewhere in my journalistic pieces and it is a real phenomenon and I spend half my time arguing with people who don't recognise its risks to our communities. This particular issue does not really have much to do immigration though. It does need new policies, I absolutely agree.

As I see it, the main way that colonialisation benefitted this country was the cheap availability of raw materials, and then obliging the Empire to buy the goods then made from them in Britain. In Ireland, as one Irishman told me 17 years ago, the rulers stripped the minerals out of the land. Weavers in Bengal had their hands chopped off by the East India company.

A report by Panorama in 2007 shed light on the 'segregation' in Blackburn, pointing out that 'refusal to integrate' was not necessarily always the problem. Rejection or 'flight' by others could also contribute to the situation:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6631541.stm
While social contacts among adults cannot be compelled, in my view the encouraging of contacts between communities, and the promotion of a sympathetic understanding of the different cultures in Britain (including the predominant Western one) is a good thing as a part of education, as part of the solution.

Troublemaking in any shape or form should be discouraged. The BNP is a racist troublemaking organisation. Britain is no longer racially and culturally homogeneous. But it is misleading to use the term 'apartheid', which was legally institutionalized and compulsory segregation that deprived whole races of their legitimate rights. If people are afraid to exercise their rights as citizens in a certain area, that is a problem of law and order and should be treated as such, even if contact with members or leaders of local communities may well be part of the answer.

Rachel – If you step back a bit, the idea of “white” or “black” or “Asian” etc. might be viewed historically. “They” are here – because “we” were there. By way of a single example, the Kikuyu we forced off their land by white settlers and the arable high lands were commandeered by the whites. When the blacks rebelled against the injustice, they were corralled and placed in concentration camps. About 50,000 of them were slaughtered. Barack Obama’s grandfather was one of those who had been tortured.

If one looked at India or the Caribbean the historical narrative is no less harsh. Colonialism brought those people to England, because England did not leave economic opportunities in the lands in which British colonialism had thrived. That the harsh truth.

Fast forward. By setting up some concepts in your mind about white exceptionalism or exclusiveness, does not begin to address the underlying economic realities – which are not going to solved anytime soon by retreat into some imaginary “white country” or white world”. This modern round of globalisation is forcing harsher challenges not merely on the white working class in Britain, but is presenting challenges to everyone across the world – which problem racism will not solve.Think about it.

Oh, I see, we start talking about immigration and end up talking Muslims.

I agree with Andy. Rachel does not sound quite like a worker whose fears and resentments are being tapped into and fed to monstrous proportions by the propagandists of the BNP. Rachel, although knowing how to sound like a brainwashed victim, comes across as an organiser. And won't she show those loud-speaking, differently-dressed foreign people who made her wait for an hour what's what, when she's in charge. Everyone to wear blue nylon dresses! Everyone to speak quietly! No-one to speak a foreign language in public at all, in fact, or - actually, what would your punishment be, Rachel?

Perhaps you really do believe that St George was 'white', Rachel. But I think, more sinisterly, you know full well that he wasn't, just as you know that Muslim people make up under four percent of this country, and that the 60 million of us are in no danger from immigrants, or anyone else.

Tut tut. Be ashamed of yourself, young lady.

Anticant: "It cannot realistically be denied that Muslim immigration does not fit easily into this pattern". Well, let me take you by the hand and lead you through my streets, where you will find "Muslim immigrants" (people) laughing and joking about life in the city right along with the rest of us, near the remnants of flower beds started by the Huegenots. A bas with your "patterns".

PS Well said, Andy.

Oh, I see, we start talking about immigration and end up talking Muslims.

I agree with Andy. Rachel does not sound quite like a worker whose fears and resentments are being tapped into and fed to monstrous proportions by the propagandists of the BNP. Rachel, although knowing how to sound like a brainwashed victim, comes across as an organiser. And won't she show those loud-speaking, differently-dressed foreign people who made her wait for an hour what's what, when she's in charge. Everyone to wear blue nylon dresses! Everyone to speak quietly! No-one to speak a foreign language in public at all, in fact, or - actually, what would your punishment be, Rachel?

Perhaps you really do believe that St George was 'white', Rachel. But I think, more sinisterly, you know full well that he wasn't, just as you know that Muslim people make up under four percent of this country, and that the 60 million of us are in no danger from immigrants, or anyone else.

Tut tut. Be ashamed of yourself, young lady.

Anticant: "It cannot realistically be denied that Muslim immigration does not fit easily into this pattern". Well, let me take you by the hand and lead you through my streets, where you will find "Muslim immigrants" (people) laughing and joking about life in the city right along with the rest of us, near the remnants of flower beds started by the Huegenots. A bas with your "patterns".

PS Well said, Andy.

So you are saying that the only problem about Muslims in Britain is the people who see them (or, rather, their attitudes) as a problem?

sorry for double posting, above.

anticant, have you thought how you sound?

"unless they are prepared to acknowledge that the great majority of non-Muslims in this country would prefer them to be less stridently self-righteous". Who is being stridently self-righteous? Who is "they"? Do you mean the bloke who fixes my car? What?

"And to cease their endless pushing for special privileges". What "special privileges"? Do you mean the special privilege of being disproportionately stopped and searched, or arrested in dawn swoops, or deported, or what? And what "endless pushing"?

"whilst portraying themselves as 'victims'" - see above. And of course, we're only bombing their relatives.

"we really do have a problem which will only get worse unless new attitudes and policies emerge on all sides to deal with it". Mmm. What happened to the old-fashioned attitudes and policies of tolerance and interest in, rather than fear of, and dissection of, other cultures?

I fear the BNP are laughing up their sleeves at Mr Murray's "I believe Rachel is right to say that there are at least a million illegal immigrants. But it is practically impossible without introducing a Nazi state to deport a million people."

Dear Anticant, have just seen your recent comment. It almost baffles me. To say there is a problem with "Muslims" is like saying there is a problem with "Christians". To speak of "their" attitudes is as limiting and meaningless as speaking of the "attitudes" of Christians, or Jewish people. There is a spectrum of beliefs, attitudes, practices and opinions in both these groups, and yet apparently you see at least one of them as homogenous. Why?

You know perfectly well who I mean: Iqbal Sacranie, Inayat Bunglawala and their MCB lot to start with. And there are plenty of others.

And tell me how many of the Musalims you know are genuinely interested in, and tolerant of, indigenous British culture? Their self-appointed spokesmen are mostly decrying its decadence, saying "No" to free speech, and threatening violence if anyone thwarts them. What about the dangerous driver Lord Ahmed, and his pledge to bring 10,000 Muslims to protest if Geert Wilders was allowed into the country?

Do you really think this type of "community politics" is helpful? Of course I agree with you about "stop and search". Unfortunately, it has always been used disproportionately against non-white people, and I'm no fan of our police force. I've nothing against Muslims as human beings but they really do need to reconsider how to improve their public image if they wish to reduce the growing hostility - some of it ignorant and prejudiced, I agree - which they arouse. And most hostility, you know, arises out of fear, whether realistic or not.

I'm not phobic about Muslims, by the way: I know some very nice ones. But I'm much less positive about their religion and wonder whether it is compatible with an open, tolerant society.

Anticant: I see, you mean the UK's Muslim 'leaders'. Well, there's not much point judging an entire group of people by their UK leaders, especially since you say they're "self-appointed". Unless you wish me to judge you by (the minority elected) Tony Blair et al? I thought not.

In any case, threating to bring 10,000 people to a protest is pretty small beer. A million people for Stop the War, and hundreds of thousands for the G8, remember?

In fact, if you do a quick web search, other Muslim leaders, feminists and academics, as well as the imam at my local mosque, are condemning just about everything bad, from intolerance to war to forced marriage to violence of any kind. But they don't get heard in our press.

You ask how many Muslims I know are genuinely interested in British culture. I presume you mean society, since I've not heard any 'Muslims' slagging off Shakespeare. The answer is all of them. They live here. As for being tolerant of it: I try to be, myself.

But the BNP, and this unwitting (?) stooge of a government don't care. If all Muslims started skipping around in morris costumes saying "we love everyone", they still wouldn't care. The BNP, certainly, have studied Nazi Germany. They know they need a useful scapegoat. One hopes they read the end of that story, too.

Still, how annoying that someone trying to defend an open, tolerant society sould end up referring to the scapegoats as though they are the other. Why, if we're talking potentially dodgy religions (all of them) would you care more about Islam than Catholicism? Why would you ever be phobic about four percent of a country's population?

Pavlov rang his bell to get a response out of his dogs, neo labour banshees cry; BNP, to summon the faithful to gather and leaflet, and or douse down the flames of controversy licking the stinking carcass of the expense scrounging, people criminalizing, ballot box stuffing crooks posing as the defenders of the poor, and the up holders of justice.

Forever the neo labour has been screaming;BNP, in fact, given any; by-election, election, and or tight spot that needed forbearance, and proved to be a distraction from the long party they have been busy with, ever since their access to the seats of power, out goes the cry; BNP!.

These kinds of banshee politics are not new, yea olde Roman crooks and emperors used to proclaim that the Barbarians were at the gates of Rome. McCarthy in cahoots with J. Edgar Hoover was busy hunting down communists, etc. Hence to find neo labour sounding general quarters alarms with cries of; BNP, is an elegant adherence to the traditions of crooks, and liars, and ought not come as any surprise, or be taken as a serious proposition.

However, the cries of keep away the extremists form the “Politics” has been the license for inception and implementation of misanthropic polices which at times have bordered racism, all in the way of stopping the other bunch of racists in their tracks, and out of parliament!

Furthermore, neo labour, and their entanglement with the Zionists, and sponsors thereof, conveniently can draw comfort from the fact that their divisive and racist policies will be spun in the relevant media as the necessary steps for keeping our country to ourselves. With the additional benefits enjoying the Zionist supremacists' Keyboard Hoards, whose handy cut and paste interjections are copiously abound in the blogosphere.

Therefore to find “Rachel” posting the unconscious drivel (replete with inaccuracies) whilst posing as an “aggrieved white” person just takes the cake. Deception to what end?. Deception to what depth? Deception to what degree?

Noting the expression of “Dole Office”, a long forgotten concept, these days the private entity “Job Centrer Plus” deals with the “job seekers” (same term as the communist China). The foreigners in the health centre as referred to by “Rachel”, are the staff , without whom the place will be pulled down and made into a block of flats, and or Spearmint Rhino. Finally, judging by the Pound's performance, and its weakness and constant slide towards zero, Pollacks are better off to stay out of UK, and earn their Euros elsewhere. As for the six seven children “Asians”, “Rachel” is mixing the Gaza Arab Hostages as the “Brown” residents in UK, the story line of myths, and prejudices spewed as the views of the “ordinary” “real” folks, are in the lines of the photo posters of Blair with Jewish couple in the back ground, which are further helped by the fact that not many of the debaters are on benefits, seeing as those real benefit recipients are not in a position to afford the exorbitant costs of pay as you go electricity, never mind affording the costs of a telephone line, and or cable for accessing the internet. Hence the campaign of disinformation among the “voting” populace, going unchallenged, further covering up for the fact that evidently researchers are finding out that dog/pet food is as good as pate for human consumption.

So far as Craig's experience in elections goes, he has not come across the disenfranchised, whom could not register, and or did not know how to vote, and or did not have any ideas about where to vote! I have, and I can tell you, not many racists or bigots are among the people out there, in fact the trouble makers are the “unreal people” in the “political class” whom have no fecking clue about the people, or the country, hence their pusillanimous attempts in trying to relate to the wider world through the use of “real”, as in; “real world”, “real people”, “real economy”, “real etc.”.

Finally the notions of a major party decrying the potential influence of a bunch of wacky, nut job, none entities, is in fact indicative of the depths of ineptitude, and break down of our political system, that can only exist based on rule of fear, and trepidation. However, whom ought to fear whom has not been as yet clarified, and in due course of the fullness of time it will all become apparent.

Gosh, no offence, but I nearly understood Happy Clappy's post there.

Rates of integration vary widely depending what ethnic / racial group you are discussing. Afro-Caribs at one end of the scale and Muslims at the other.

What does assimilate require: wear suits, drink in bars, socialise in mixed race groups? Is it reasonable to ask someone who comes to the UK from outside or who grows in an ethnically dense neighbourhood to turn their back on their background / ancestry etc. It’s a fundamental of who you are and also a support network too (Indian Hindus good example of the latter).

There’s a good case thats sometimes made that the growth of interest in fundamental Muslim groups in this county is actually due to third generation kids turning against the host culture they were brought up in, freq very successfully so perhaps more social engineering style assimilation measures might have unexpected and more alienating effects.

People can (and do)give lip service to multi-culturalism and yet their behaviours usually contradict their avowed values.

There are a lot of reports too of how multicultural societies make people more insular in their outward ‘social’ behaviour and less trusting generally. For one example, Prospect Magazine ran a series of articles on how homogenous societies were more inclined to support welfare and redistributive measures whereas more diverse societies were less so.

It’s also fact that white birth rates are not enough to keep replacement levels whilst many ethnic minority groups are well above this level and certainly well above the white levels.

So an interesting thought experiment is to imagine what the political situation will be like in this country when the white population is itself the ethnic minority and various groups are vying for their place at the table. The Jack Straw postal vote patriarchy situation will be a lot further down the road and the political /legal heritage and liberal higher values espoused now might not get the sort of allegiance that they get today.

Then imagine your children (or your children's children) inhabiting that world.

BDG " Then imagine your children (or your children's children) inhabiting that world."

And if Mom is White English - Dad is Asian - and the kids down the road are Afro-Caribbean - then?

BDG " Then imagine your children (or your children's children) inhabiting that world."

And if Mom is White English - Dad is Asian - and the kids down the road are Afro-Caribbean - then?

BDG " Then imagine your children (or your children's children) inhabiting that world."

And if Mom is White English - Dad is Asian - and the kids down the road are Afro-Caribbean - then?

Then, what Courtenay Barnett? For me on the micro (personal)level continuing that thought experiment, if that white mother was one of my daughters I would feel sad and appalled.

BDG - must apologise to Craig - and to you BDG - I only intended to post you one part Asian grandchild - but the button went off three times. So - you now have 3 part Asian grandchildren - instead of one. Be happy - your genes continue...

BDG - Muslims are not an ethnic/racial group.

BGD,

Fundamentalist Muslims in the UK are indeed often not first generation, but they do arise out of communities which have become physically and socially separated from surrounding white communities. I have spent a lot of time talking to such people, not only in Blackburn.

I think social mixing is na essential part of integration. I don't care what people where. But as I continually say, we must start by integrating the schools.

Communities who want 'faith schools' should fund them out of their own resources. They should not receive a penny of public funds. And they should be rigorously inspected to ensure that they are giving their pupils an adequate general education, and not merely indoctrinating them with religious dogma.

Courtenay, sorry that is risible logic.

Anticant good point but in the UK the most significant Muslim population and that to which I was referring is of Pakistani origin. Therefore 'Muslim' is a (sloppy) shorthand for that ethnic group.

Craig yes think you are right but also understand that many of the radical Muslim groups are making many of their converts at one end at University and at the other in prisons.

No it isn't. Ask them which is more important - their country (whether Britain or Pakistan), or Islam.

Don't forget, Pakistan was founded as an Islamic state because the worshippers of Allah weren't willing to live in a majority Hindu united India.

And more than a million died in the communal religious riots resulting from partition. The haste of that scuttle and the resulting deaths is one of the blots on British imperial history.

Why is everyone having a witch hunt for Rachel. Sounds like the NuLabour Jackboot Jackie gang out for her head.

Lets remember that NuLabour have set the agenda for the past 12 horrendous years and have by social policy, propaganda and legislation caused the Muslims to be the scapegoat for societies ills.

Before 1997 we hardly ever heard of Islam and Muslims in the news. They have become a convenient peg to split the nation.

Hopefully we are seeing the spontaneous combustion of this evil political party before our very eyes to be swept into the ash-can of political history for ever. NUL RIP.

BDG: "if that white mother was one of my daughters I would feel sad and appalled."

Oh well. Then your daughter would hate you, your wife would (probably secretly) hate you and you would never get to see your grandchildren. I guess you would deserve it.

I really don't understand this thing of downplaying the threat of the BNP just because the government are trying to capitalise on it - why can't we fight the government AND the fascists? The BNP and the far right ARE on the rise and when the shite hits the fan the state will look to the far-right to smash us and keep us in our place.

I have nothing but the highest praise for those dedicated anti-racist groups that have continually exposed, challenged and organised against the far-right wherever they have raised their ugly heads. After all, if it was left up to the BBC, the BNP would be portrayed as a harmless group just concerned about immigration levels, rather than the hardened, violent fascists that they are.

It is not impossible to fight on two fronts and there's no point pretending the far-right do not exist or that Muslims and Asians in general are not suffering an increase in racism and intimidation - that increase is a direct result of the government's actions and it is those actions that have emboldened the BNP. We must fight both.

Please can some people stop objectifying persons who happen to be Muslim and referring to us all as if we were one single organism and that. too, a caricature. You have to see that this is a big part of the problem and is a tactic designed to split communities.

Btw, I'm against faith schools as a principle though I'm aware it's a complex issue, esp. here in Scotland where there are many Catholic schools. Did you know that there is a Jewish school in Glasgow where many of the pupils are Muslims - and from that most despised of groups, those bogey-men and women (and since "they have lots of babies", children, no doubt, eh?) the Pakistani group (and many of their parents are from poor backgrounds originally in rural Pakistan)? Does anyone know that over the past five decades, one of the biggest film-stars in Pakistan has been a Jewish Pakistan woman called Barbara Sharif? Did you know that there are Jewish Pakistani people in Karachi? Did you know that there is a thriving camp-vampire genre film-cycle made in Pushtu in the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan with a female as the lead protagonist? Do you know of the excellent visual art there? How do you square that with the bipolar world of your preconceptions? Does this kind of thing - this type of interaction actually is the norm in this country, btw - ever get into the news? Don't define your reality by what you see/ hear/ read in the news. There's more to life.

Good lord some of these comments on here are simply appalling.

"The BNP and the far right ARE on the rise and when the shite hits the fan the state will look to the far-right to smash us and keep us in our place."

Just realise I made the mistake of thinking this was a left-wing site which it clearly is not. I take back that 'us' on reading through these comments.

I think what happens, AM, is that while 'the site is alright', indeed much of what is originally posted by Mr Murray is intelligent, timely and thought-provoking - that is, for those who wish to think - and Mr Murray's views are refreshingly broad-minded, undogmatic etc., some of the people latch onto such sites and try to rubbish intelligent discourse and divert people away from the original issues.

It's possibly the same sorts of people who send daily abusive e-mails and death threats to journalists like Yasmin Alibahi-Brown. People write stuff on the web which they would think twice about writing in a letter or saying face-to-face. It can bring out the worst in people - partly because of its anonymity and the instantaneous nature of its medium.

My problem is, I try to think the best of people, and maybe that's naive. My and others' (including your excellent) attempts to present the complexities of the world and bring the discourse back from atavism to some kind of sanity sometimes fall on deaf ears. Nothing new there. But do keep on...!!

AM: I'm not sure whether it's that these extreme opinons seem to be taken seriously on this board, or the absence of fact, or the tolerance of misinformation, or the overall line of "yes, this is (these Muslims are) a problem, which we need to discuss like reasonable people and find solutions for".

All are worrying.

Suhayl, I'll youtube for that camp-vampire genre film cycle! And thanks for the other sane information too.

BDG - you say: " Courtenay, sorry that is risible logic." But, Technicolour makes the point for me, in saying: " Then your daughter would hate you, your wife would (probably secretly) hate you and you would never get to see your grandchildren. I guess you would deserve it."

Actually, checked on your family’s progress and found everyone to be doing quite well. Your Asian son-in-law is actually a nationally respected Harley Street doctor. Your three grandchildren all graduated with first class honours from university, thanks in large measure to their dad's attention to their academic advancement. And, the eldest became a politician, and became party leader and is slated to be the first "coloured" Prime Minister of Britain.

BDG, you have a lot to be proud of, thanks to your daughter’s excellent choice for a husband. Now, don't forget to kiss the grandchildren when next you see them.

P.S. The final thing I might add BDG, is that I am so pleased that racism is not something that can be genetically transmitted. It seems that with a bit of education and some worldly exposure the sick condition has a tendency of disappearing. Not to worry BDG – be assured - you can be cured.

Anticant, the majority of Muslims in the UK come from Pakistan, most from Kashmir. These are the people to whom I refer. When many of the young men among the poorer communities here want to take a wife they look to their ancestral village as their heritage is important to them, not the village down the road. Taking a partner from any ethnic group provided they are 'Muslim' (which itself has many many sub faiths) is a non starter– do you really think they would marry a Turk for instance even if they were of good family? To ask the question is to answer it. Therefore their ethnicity is extremely important to them.

Technicolour, firstly a few of the people commenting on my comments must be dyslexic as its BGD. Secondly that is why for many the situation ends as a tragedy. For my part one holds fast to the principles one has come to believe in and not take the path of least resistance and easy emotion.

AM there is a difference between a militant ‘far right’ or ‘fascists’ as you categorise it and the natural individual’s desire for continuity.It can be that simple, doesn't have to involve "hatred" or "racism" any the rest of the leftist thought-crime vocabulary.

Courtenay Barnett: yawn. I can see why your personality type and cheap sneers and absence of arguments made you choose the legal profession along with the Blairs and Howards of this world. 'Asians' are an extremely broad category. If we take the Pakistani element to which I referred then those are not the usual life expectations of that community. They have higher than average unemployment, their educational achievements are very poor for males etc. Other Asian groups though do remarkable well. And of course for balance's sake poor white children, esp boys are currently hovering near the bottom.

BDG: so you want argument.

Britain has a number of people in it who are non-white citizens.
They have rights as do the rest of the population.
Either the country accepts them and devises methods of integration, or like you, seek to ostracise and mariginalise, which leads to great social unrest, riots and on-going resentments.
So, you do have choices.
Trying to ostracise ‘them’ or, ensuring that they are further marginalised compliments of exclusionary attitudes, is not doing anything on your part to help heal divisive wounds.
But, with due regard for your racist attitudes, that’s a choice you have made.
On another aspect of your comment, placing me in the same category as “the Blairs and Howards” ( because of the shared profession) reeks of the same ad hominem that you are accusing me of indulging in. I believe on this one you really have cast the generic net far too wide – really can’t see myself being a bit like Blair ( not in the consistency of my personal conduct or my opposition to the war in Iraq at any rate).
So, far as my responses to your posts are concerned - I am simply saying that I see no sense in racism, when humankind has greater challenges on hand.
Actually, now I can be truly risible to conclude.
I plan for your next birthday to present a gift of a car called the “Universal”. On it will be placed a note:-

“BDG - thought I would deliver something truly global for your birthday. Parts from Africa; pre-fab done in Korea; engine made in Germany with a specially installed carburetor from Poland; made by a company headquarted in Japan; and, the shareholders are from 60 countries from across the globe”. Happy driving of your “Universal” BDG.

It does seem to me that the parochialism of ‘my little Blighty’ attitudes has no space in this new era of gloablisation. Your attitude seems to me, outdated, and quite frankly, given the realities of Britain’s expansionary push into the West Indies from the days of the expeditions of Penn and Venables in 1655, really, BDG – isn’t it about time that you got accustomed to “them”? But, give me my due when you say: “Other Asian groups though do remarkable well. And of course for balance's sake poor white children, esp boys are currently hovering near the bottom.” – I did make the introduction of your daughter to an achiever Asian.

Maybe you are just baiting me, and I am the stupid one for biting bait. BDG – you seem deep down to be capable of reason and reasonable people aren’t racist - now – are they?

Thanks for replying.

OK Courtenay, perhaps there was an (unwarranted?) element of flame in my previous response and I’ll avoid that here and attempt a final response to you.

Britain does have a number of non-European citizens agreed. They do certainly have rights (hence my interest in Craig’s site, torture allegations etc) agreed.

My issue (and I’ll reign myself in here because I responded to some off-topic comments in this thread and now it seems we’re yet further out again) is that the multi-racial / multi cultural situation has been delivered to the host population as a fait accompli.

Not just that but a strong element of compulsion comes with it. Laws on regulating behaviour, societal engineering via education, media and the creation of certain taboos etc. Craig’s bussing suggestion is another step in this coercive line for me that I personally don’t agree with.

Additionally, the non-European population groups are growing at a much faster rate than the host population. This does not bode well for a cohesive society and for the future of liberal (in the JS Mill sense) values and historically evolved political norms.

Our political system needs a lot of house cleaning but in comparison to some other nations is still a remarkable thing.

I don’t agree that the current situation now as we have it should be accepted because of what some of my countrymen did in the 17th Century on behalf of elites and before my direct ancestors were even allowed to even vote.

The globalisation example you made above does not infer the free movement of people. Elements can be processed in one place and others elsewhere.

Anyway I’ve just responded to a few points made against my original post and will happily ‘let it lie’

BDG – finally I believe that we are debating. Do you mind if I use your first name and call you “B”? Fine, mine’s Courtenay. Not trying to score any points here, and really rising to you because you make valid and worthy observations. So, we can now remain nice and friendly and analytical.

There are two things that you said that I want to respond to:-

1. “the multi-racial / multi cultural situation has been delivered to the host population as a fait accompli.”
2. “The globalisation example you made above does not infer the free movement of people. Elements can be processed in one place and others elsewhere.”

Multi- racialism

We live in a multi-racial world, and when people move from their traditional borders into new territory, we have to devise ways to accommodate each other in peace (i.e. I posit that as a moral choice). This observation is as true for England, as it has to be for every other nation on earth – if that morality is to be given societal meaning. England has an inheritance of historical economic advantage, so the Eastern Europeans gravitate here to seek a better life in this corner of the EU. The people from the Caribbean, or India or Pakistan, have direct and long associations with England, precisely because England gained historical advantage, and now those same descendants are here to eek out a living wage. There has to be a humane way of accommodating those who come, is what I say. The process of integrating the persons into a viable and peaceful British society is a challenge. But, the fact is that we live in a multi-racial world, and in consequence we find ourselves in multi-racial societies. We can live in such societies in peace, or we can live in belligerent states. The challenge is to find viable public policy strategies to make the peace.

Globalisation

Actually, the example I used deliberately inferred the movement of capital, and that is how this process of modern globalisation is initially unfolding. If you reflect on Columbus’s move into the “New World” that process involved the movement of people and the accumulation of capital, involving Portugal, Spain, France, Britain etc. Britain’s engagement in this process makes an interesting contrast with America. The Euro-American population had plantations in the South, that country industrialised in the North, then production from slave labour became “history” so to speak. Point – the Africans who were slaves were throughout living in the United States. Britain’s plantations, be these sugar plantations or tea plantations were elsewhere – overseas. Howevdr, the economic processes of accumulation, whether in the US or Britain, were in economic terms essentially the same. The labour provided the wealth and families like Barings and Barclays ( both names of British banking fame) grew enormously wealthy. The people remained outside Britain during the period of that wealth accumulation, and now some of the descendants of those people are in Britain.

Your observation:-

“The globalisation example you made above does not infer the free movement of people.”

I agree – my example did not. But, now I have put people in the picture. The capital moved into Britain, the people initially stayed in their impoverished countries, then fast forward. Recall, it was no less a person than Enoch Powell, who had been involved in inviting immigrants over to do the work post World War 11 that the whites did not want.

Powell made a speech in parliament, in part about British treatment of the Africans in Kenya, in which he said:-

"Nor can we ourselves pick and choose where and in what parts of the world we shall use this or that kind of standard. We cannot say, 'We will have African standards in Africa, Asian standards in Asia and perhaps British standards here at home'. We have not that choice to make. We must be consistent with ourselves everywhere. All Government, all influence of man upon man, rests upon opinion. What we can do in Africa, where we still govern and where we no longer govern, depends upon the opinion which is entertained of the way in which this country acts and the way in which Englishmen act. We cannot, we dare not, in Africa of all places, fall below our own highest standards in the acceptance of responsibility".

While Powell, and his views on many things are not mine, I merely throw his words out there, with due regard for our line of discussion, and with especial regard for his known controversial views on immigration. Powell denied being a racialist on the lines of ever defining a racialist as a person who despises another on the assumptions of inherent capabilities he was quite clear and said that by applying that measure, he was not.

Interesting now, how we arrive at the same challenges, because it is not just the raw capital coming here, but now the people have followed to where the money went.

I say all that to say this. The previous globalisation did not bring the people here to Britain, and now, what capital did in the past by way of colonialist and imperially imposed global divisions, have now in this round presented the issues here on the streets to be addressed with the distances that separated when Britannia ruled the waves being compressed into issues of daily existence living beside “them”. So, to answer, now I have given and shared my views and special interpretation of elements, to twist your words a considerable amount, elements which I have tried to process historically to give new meaning to your sentence – “Elements can be processed in one place and others elsewhere.”

Courtenay, certainly you can but first as mentioned above it’s BGD not BDG. First name Ben.

CB: “The people from the Caribbean, or India or Pakistan, have direct and long associations with England, precisely because England gained historical advantage...”

I find it interesting to attempt to untangle what is explicit and implicit within your statements. “Historical advantage” seems to imply that Britain was a key beneficiary from colonialism / Empire does it not?

Is this some recently developed term beloved of sociologists? If I was putting my cynical Worzel Gummidge head on I’d say it sounded like latte-Marxism, except that it’s meaning is somewhat shrouded and no doubt one has to plough through the conceptual baggage to try to prise the meaning out of the shell.

The assumption of British net benefits is actually not the case. Cecil Rhodes, the Barings, Sassoons and Jardines and their ilk may have benefitted, so may some slavers, tea merchants and the like but as is now argued widely the colonial era actually cost Britain (and therefore her taxpaying population) more than she benefitted from it. This is not surprising as the elites have always used the common population as pawns in their nest building. Perhaps in my clawing at your meaning here I am squinting too much between the lines.

You next attempt to segue from this point into “and now those same descendants are here to eek out a living wage.”

One doesn’t have to follow the other. As I said a fait accompli was delivered and there is absolutely no inevitability about it. It happened due to politics and via politics it could have been arrested.

The empire may have accounted for a good proportion of the early immigrants but many have also come following the UN Convention of Refugees and our judicial classes interpretation of that treaty and via economic migrancy from nations where we weren’t involved colonially.

All Western nations now have significant minority populations and this is for many not directly associated with colonial past or “historical advantage.”

I think because of your interest in globalisation you think that like the weather this is inevitable. That like King Croesus it’s futile to fight the tide, just accept it, fling the borders open. It would appear you invest the concept of globalisation with some almost supernatural qualities, like Adam Smith’s invisible hand. Obviously from my statements I wholly disagree and given any chance to express their opinions so consistently have the populations of most Western states.

I’m not sure what Powell adds to the conversation and he is an easy fall back for some. I have to say there are no posters of Enoch on my wall. EP did have something to do with small numbers of immigrants coming to this country, particularly around the NHS. We’ve probably all seen the “Till Death Us Do Part” tirades of Alf Garnett on this fact. He was a free trader, Austrian school etc. Then he decided in some important ways he’d been wrong and tried to honestly reverse the prevailing consensus of the political class on this. But the immigration levels were minor in comparison to today.

I have to say sorry, but I cannot understand your final paragraph at all even after reading it four times.

In sum, yes, the current situation is a fact. There is though the possibility of difficult decisions ahead. The political class are somewhat in agreement with immigration reform but not reversal which means just a change of degree.

The immigrants that are here illegally it is suggested may well be given leave to remain (no doubt Cameron will come round to this view once in government). The proportion of immigrants that settled here now have children that still live lives not as wholly British so much as one foot here and one foot still having a strong adherence to their ancestral roots (interestingly in the US they seem to have overcome this and to some limited degree in France too).

The laws of the country have been changed to coerce the acceptance of the host population; the media and the education system are used to inculcate the ‘right’ attitudes to continue the process and certain professions demand you give your allegiance to this process on pain of dismissal. The laws of this country are being slowly amended to give consideration to Sharia elements. The electoral system is being corrupted in some important ways which is where the post from Craig started this discussion.

That’s your globalisation for you. Unfortunately in between are ordinary men and women and their families on all ethnic sides living their daily lives but on the macro level there are powerful demographic and cultural changes afoot.

Please go away, Mr Griffin. I'm sure you are a lovely soul underneath it all, and I appreciate how miserable it must be in your position, but your misinformation, insinuations and racism are spoiling my supper. We all know that the BNP are in favour of mass forced deportations and stuff. Can't you take six months off and go travelling and have adventures and like yourself again, or something?

Technicolour you need to see all the shades of an argument not just the monochrome ones, like man.

It's a post about the BNP and allied issues and I'm not a member.

I have periodically (albeit infrequently) posted here never touching on this issue because that wasn't the discussion at hand.

I am civilly putting a point of view in response to criticism that's made of things I have said that relates to this topic and might interest some. If you don't like it you know this is the internet super highway why not just walk on by.

Your kindergarten psychobabble and your belief that I may be concerned over your supper are somewhat misplaced.

Ben: Where this has reached is that I have to convince you of what actually is fact, and I shall try:-

"Cecil Rhodes, the Barings, Sassoons and Jardines and their ilk may have benefitted, so may some slavers, tea merchants and the like..."

That is a pretty big slice of colonialists you have there referenced - who we then must assume, on your line of reasoning, benefited themselves exclusively but not Britain from whence they came?

"... but as is now argued widely the colonial era actually cost Britain."?

In one way, I can agree – if you completed the sentence – “Actually cost Britain what otherwise might have been a good name”. Argued by whom Ben? Supported by what facts? I suggest that there are a lot of revisionists around who would rather mask and hide the evils of the British Empire. Odd thing to have built an Empire and then profess great losses while having extracted - people and resources out of Africa; labour and resources out of the West Indies; advancing slavery and racism as cornerstones of empire building; further impoverishing an already impoverished India to bleed benefits for Britain; the Amristar massacre by Dwyer added for good measure; British theft of Kenyan lands, rounding up of Kenyans in their own land in the mass concentration camps and subjecting them to torture ( a subject that my earlier quote from Enoch Powell was making reference to); and - what Britain did to the Irish during the famine and the partition of Ireland could be thrown in as additional spice for the "evil stew of Empire".

So Ben, all of this was done over a period of over three hundred years or more while Britain consistently lost money ( maybe after you finish reading Jeremy Paxman you should have a read of Eric Williams " Capitalism and Slavery" a well researched world best seller on the subject to which the title refers). On your account, slavery and indentured labour presumably were not pursued because profits were being made? And, so I must assume, on your account, notwithstanding that no profits accrued to Britain over considerably long periods, the processes nevertheless continued over the centuries for reasons, presumably motivated by altruism?

Post-Empire you find the thought of your daughter marrying an Indian doctor appalling. And you remain either ungrateful or unappreciative of the point I sought to make earlier when I gave you the "Universal" car for your birthday present.

Ah...well....I give up....all together now, after three, "Rule Britannia...!"

PS. I am not a Marxist – but I do have a conscience, an honest mind about the facts, and some fairy tales about the niceness of the British Empire, which did in fact exploit quite extensively. Ultimately, at this stage of post-empire British history – I leave you comfortably believing what you want to about the great “humanitarian enterprise” that was the “British Empire”.

PPS. Why do you bother posting on this blog Ben? With your mind-set, frankly, wouldn’t you be more at home on a BNP blog or web site?

Courtenay : Actually I do not support the British Empire or the colonial period proper.

Where those people broadly defined as Anglo-Celts settled (Australia, NZ, US, Canada) I do take some pride in their achievements (while not overlooking the harsh ways they treated the domestic populations.)

Save your sneers, I’ve not got out my squeeze box and won’t be bashing out Rule Britannia (interestingly with its allusions to Barbary slave raids on British coastal villages: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,994562,00.html )

No White Man’s Burden from here. I find Quigley quite interesting on some of that guff (The Anglo-American Establishment) and see it as political sloganeering, cover for power politics which of course it is. Also on this period I read with interest Corelli Barnett's The Collapse of British Power.

I read (and occasionally post) here because it troubles me that our government (and all western governments) not just allows but is actually complicit in appalling things happening to their citizens and other nationals. That behind the fluff in the daily MSM who acts like a conductor orchestrating our populations base emotions of outrage, sentimentality and titillation naked power politics continues.

I am horrified that my government is complicit and how they use the threat of Islam to subvert our shaky ‘constitution’ such as it is.

How generally the country is degrading rather than evolving. I read the site because I find it of interest once in a while to see the curtain lifted and glimpse the actors backstage.

I read it like I read other sites to see perspectives on how we are used as fodder to fight (and pay in perpetuity) for unjust wars, prop up international financiers and pollute our world.

I also have a suspicion that this globalism of which you speak and the entrenched nature of multi-racial societies in all of the West has been a fundamental part of this process and unanchors us from any common basis which otherwise might give us some high ground to do battle with it...

Just a small point Craig.Corus is on Teeside,not Tyneside.

Quite a mouthful Ben. With the words,
"That behind the fluff in the daily MSM who acts like a conductor orchestrating our populations base emotions of outrage, sentimentality and titillation naked power politics continues." It's you sounding a bit of the Marxist to me there.

Anyway, not much more I can add, save and except:-

A. Be appreciative that I introduced your daughter to the wonderful Indian doctor.
B. Remember to kiss your three coloured grandchildren and show them love ( you have it in you if you try a bit);and
C. Don't forget to change the oil in the "Universal" car that I gave you for your birthday.

Try to be a lot more accepting and understanding - and - I sense that you have that potential.

"Rule humana - humanity ought to rule the waves" - or something like that...cheers.

Courtenay, that will never happen.

You try and be a bit more understanding that the engine of your monstrous 'Universal' vehicle is overheating and that many of the passengers are looking at ways to get off and already are shopping around for something else. That because it's the only car in your garage does not mean that it's the only one that has ever been built or will be built. 'Cheers'

Ben - I agree with you. Ronald Reagan, George Bush et. al. gave the monstrous “Universal” to me. I did not want to let you know, but the secret seems to be out. I admit it, that since I value my Sunday morning exercise – I gave it away to you as your birthday present. Actually, I do agree totally with you on your point, and I admire your sharp come back as well – touché!

One thing that does give me comfort is that racist shits like BGD would never dare spew their bile in public or they'd get carted away. Hopefully their bitterness and resentment will eat them alive.

While one doesn’t as a rule, like to discomfit the weak of mind I have to tell JB that concerns over immigration and its impact on demography, culture, economics and environment is actually very much the order of the day among the general population.

If you were to actually break out of the Islingtonesque mindset you seem to inhabit and visit more places than your local Narcotics Anonymous and SWP meetings you might encounter it a lot more. No doubt you long for the day when people expressing views to which you disagree will be carted off. Such is always the way with neo-bolsheviks.

None of the preceding means that one cannot both be concerned by the political system that has created this situation and also be concerned about how it has fought unjust wars, used international law as its personal plaything, taxed the poorest in the population to have its way and generally impacted upon people of all races and faiths globally in an wholly unsatisfactory fashion.

It's OK when you meet ordinary racists down the pub, because then you can talk like human beings and find out what's underneath the evil rubbish they've been fed (generally it's fear of the bully boys, fear of debt, or fear of having failed).

But then you get someone online, and not only that, but someone who thinks they're a thinker, with a vocabulary which includes "macrocosm" and "JS Mill". And it's a puzzle, isn't it? Leave this academic racist to bang away; insinuating, lying, digressing, attacking and cajoling, on a site for which one feels a certain amount of reponsibility?

Or deal with this mindset? A mindset which, as a friend pointed out, is so alien to the vast majority of the population, and so incoherent in its justifications, and so destructive in its desires, and so blinkered about its motives, that it's like dealing with a paedophiliac. There are people who do the latter, but a) they get paid for it and b) they get counselling afterwards.

To be in even the same board space as someone thoughtfully advocating mass forced deportation is like finding a verruca in your soup: after the initial surprise wears off it becomes distressing. Just a couple of small factual points, in case anyone missed them:
1. To ask a question is not to answer it.
2. The central lie of this platform - that we are in danger of being overwhelmed by virile, dark-skinned others - may be an old one, but it is no less of a lie for that. The "non-European" population are not "growing at a much faster rate" than the "host" population.

Astonishing how the last was left to stand, complete with its suggestion that "non Europeans" are parasites. I guess people have been feeling as disinclined to deal with this as I now am.

BGD,

You are right that Imperialism did not benefit ordinary British people. But what it did assiat was mass emigration. If all the British people who left here just since the second world war came back, with their families and descendants, and all the people who immigrated here in the same period left, plus their families and descendants, we would have a net increase in population og over 30 million.

So it's not about population levels. It's just bout your not liking black people. Well, that's your personal psychological problem.

Craig it's a matter of degree not kind. Whether you file this under special pleading or not I frequently go out drinking sociably with a black guy who is a personal friend (and who is aware of my perspective). Living in the UK near any major city (south east London for me) you can't exist without interacting with people from the ethnic majorities. As anyone decent would you deal with them as individuals on a case by case basis. Some you like others you don't like an race of person. It's the country wide (and Western wide)macro level that concerns and how the culture etc is impacted.

Leftists are such intriguing and amusing creatures to study up close.

Case study of a leftist:

STAGE 1: Use psychobabble to impute an underlying mental problem. I doubt Technicolor sat at the feet of Theodore Adorno so I guess he just absorbed the technique from reading “Debating for Dummies” or whatever they are giving out at SWP meetings these days.

Technicolor says: Usual ‘racists’ views are because of “fear of the bully boys, fear of debt, or fear of having failed” or how about this gem of an example “so incoherent in its justifications, and so destructive in its desires, and so blinkered about its motives, that it's like dealing with a paedophiliac”

STAGE 2: If it doesn’t fit in with their theories they deny the sun rises in the morning.

Technicolor says: The "non-European" population are not "growing at a much faster rate" than the "host" population. Astonishing how the last was left to stand.

Firstly let’s have some statistics on those coming to this country:

Birth rates of the non British born:

ONS Report covered by Telegraph: More than one in five births in Britain last year was to a woman from overseas. 154,000 of the 749,000 births in 2006 - 21 per cent - were to immigrants. 70 per cent of the 10 million rise in population over the next 25 years would be down to immigration - either directly or via higher birth rates. Over the past five years alone, immigration has added more than one million to the population. The Pakistani rate of 4.7 children per mother is almost three times the British-born rate of 1.7.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1572262/One-in-five-babies-born-to-migrants-in-UK.html

British born ethnic minorities:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1556901.stm

Britain's ethnic minorities are growing at 15 times the rate of the white population. Data collected by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) between 1992-1994 and 1997-1999 showed that the number of people from minority ethnic groups grew by 15% compared to 1% for white people. If it was that much over that period then it much be far more now.

STAGE 3: Set up a few straw men for good measure:

Technicolor says: “Someone thoughtfully advocating mass forced deportation”... “suggestion that "non Europeans" are parasites”

Not in any of my posts here have I suggested either of those two things. Show me?

So Technicolor is the UK indigenous population’s birthrate under that of the ethnic minorities or not?

Which brings us to the next stage for these creatures:

STAGE 4: Move the Goal Posts

....

Enjoy your soup

BGD - you seriously need some help with the state of your mental health. You sound like someone on the point of cracking up. Do you have a lot of personal issues?

@ AM

Thank you for your professional opinion. I refer you to Stage 1 in the debating techniques of the left that I made in regard to Technicolor and say thanks for underlining my point:

STAGE 1: Use psychobabble to impute an underlying mental problem.

If it wasn’t all so tiresomely predictable I’d manage to crack a smile.

As if this wasn’t proof enough of your left-leaning twaddle your earlier comments that the BNP are on the rise and “when the shite hits the fan the state will look to the far-right to smash us and keep us in our place” is the usual low rent sixth form Marxist analysis that one can’t help but sigh upon reading.

You know in all good faith I thought it would be interesting to debate a few points regarding this post with the readers on the site but unfortunately the responses have been quite laughably bad.

Silly analogies, puerile sneers, what-ifs, straw men and playing the man instead of the ball is your benchmark..

I have looked in - mid packing - to see if Technicolor would have the cohones to say OK I made an argument, it was shown to have no substance but XYZ... Nope. Pitiful man.

In the absence of any substantive arguments I think it’s time to stop trying to make closed minded people engage with other perspectives and find more productive uses of my time.

C'est la vie.

Any one serious thinking about voting for the BNP should read this book, it is extremely details and further and describes the history of the BNP (and related organizations, its leaders and some of its candidates).

I defy any reasonably rational person, having read this, and maybe done some brief investigation of their own, to come to any conclusion but that the BNP
is a (renamed) British Nazi Party in suites and ties.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Contemporary-British-Fascism-National-Legitimacy/dp/0230574378/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1244133031&sr=8-2

For further exposure of the reality of the BNP, try:

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/