British Elections Neither Free Nor Fair

by craig on April 12, 2010 9:48 am in The Election

Am posting my CiF article here – with my own original heading – just to safeguard it for eternity.

I was very pleased with the comments on CiF – 73 positive and 3 negative. But less pleased with the Guardian’s treatment of the article. It was never referenced on any of the main pages. It was linked from the CiF front page for only 14 hours – 11 of which hours were between 10pm and 9am.

By contrast, for example, a rubbish right wing article from Charles Crawford claiming that David Cameron’s East European allied parties are not really objectionable, was on the front page of Cif simulatenously and for a total of over 48 hours. Until it was whisked off and hidden at 9.48am, my article was garnering comments quicker than any other.

Here is the article again:

In my diplomatic career, I spent a great deal of time assessing the democratic merit of elections in various countries abroad. That gives me a peculiar perspective in looking at elections in the UK, and wondering what a foreign observer would make of them. I can do this also with the insight of having twice run as an independent parliamentary candidate.

Against international standards, British elections leave a great deal to be desired. The first crucial failing is the lack of an independent administration of the elections. In each constituency, the election is not run by the Electoral Commission, but by the local authority. The national Electoral Commission has only an advisory role and cannot even monitor or instruct local returning officers. The returning officer is almost always the chief executive officer of the local authority.

The problem is that, de facto, those chief executives are party-political appointments. Particularly in the long-term New Labour rotten boroughs of the north, local government appointments are a New Labour nexus. Bluntly put, the New Labour council of a northern town is almost never going to appoint a Tory chief executive.

In fact, the lines between council appointments and party appointments are often blurred. Bill Taylor was Jack Straw’s agent and full-time organiser in Blackburn in 2005. His pay came as a youth organiser for a neighbouring New Labour-controlled council. It would have been illegal for him to be thus employed by Blackburn itself and to campaign in the constituency. Reciprocal agreements between New Labour councils to provide full-time party staff ?” at the council taxpayer’s expense ?” are not uncommon.

There was a time when honesty in public life was such that the party allegiance of a local authority and its staff would not affect confidence in its ability to conduct a free and fair election. The parliamentary expenses scandal has killed the myth that our politics are honest and well motivated. I do not accept local authority chief executives as genuinely independent returning officers.

I will continue to use Blackburn as an illustration, because I have an intimate knowledge, having stood there in 2005. An independent candidate standing against Jack Straw in the coming election, Bushra Irfan, has already been told by the local election office that she will not be able to exercise her right to place her own seals on the ballot boxes, as the hasp only has room for the council’s seals.

She has just erected an election banner on her own property. Within hours, council officials arrived to dismantle it on the grounds that it did not have planning permission. This ignores the fact that election advertising for a “pending election” is specifically exempted from need for planning permission. But aside from that, one wonders whether other planning issues in Blackburn draw the same instant hit-squad response from the council?

Postal voting is a further major area of concern ?” and again, that concern principally centres on the northern cities. New Labour deliberately brought in a massive expansion in the use of postal voting, which was previously available only to the infirm or to those with other legitimate reason for not making it to the polling booth.

The polling booth is the vital question here. Those bits of board that prevent anyone from seeing how you vote, are an essential element of the secret ballot. New Labour has, in effect, deliberately removed it. Any vote made at home is a vote that may be filled in under the coercive eye of an individual able to enter your home and intimidate you ?” something nobody can do in the polling booth.

I am not theorising. Particularly among some patriarchal Asian communities, community leaders and heads of extended families can and do demand to see the postal ballot of those under their sway, before it is posted. Belated “safeguards”, like having to sign the accompanying form, do nothing to stop this domestic intimidation. It is widely recognised that one result of this postal ballot system has been the effective disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of Asian women. Just as bad, it has also disenfranchised lower-status men in many Asian communities.

Again, I speak from experience, having listened to many first-hand accounts from intimidated people in Blackburn ?” and, in every case, the intimidation was to vote New Labour. In the Blackburn constituency in 2005, an incredible 12,000 postal ballots were cast: that represented 29% of the vote, compared to a national average of under 13%. What does that suggest?

But it is still more blatant than that. You will find this next fact astonishing. The regulations have been designed specifically to prevent the exposure of postal ballot fraud. By law, the postal ballots have to be mixed undetectably with the polling booth ballots before they are counted. Therefore, there is no way to prove if, as I suspect happened in Blackburn, a candidate received 25% of secret ballots but 80% of postal ballots.

It is this compulsory destruction of the voting evidence that convinces me that the motivation for extending the use of the postal ballot can only have been a self-serving act by the New Labour government.

But there is a still more fundamental point, which raises doubts about the democratic validity of Britain’s elections ?” and that is the question of whether a real choice is being presented to the voters.

International electoral monitoring bodies pay a great deal of attention to this. For example, in December’s parliamentary elections in Uzbekistan, it was the lack of real choice between five official parties, all supporting President Karimov’s programme, on which the OSCE focused its criticism.

How different is the UK, really? For example, I want to see an immediate start to withdrawal of British troops from Afghanistan; I am increasingly sceptical of the EU; and I do not want to see a replacement for the vastly expensive Trident nuclear missile system. On each one of those major policy points, I am in agreement with at least 40% of the UK population, but on none of those points is my view represented by any of the three major political parties. And remember, only those three major political parties will be represented in the televised leaders’ debates that will play such a key part in the election.

Those debates will take place between three representatives of a professional political class whose ideological differences do not span a single colour of the wider political spectrum. Voters in Wales and Scotland are luckier, but for most people, there is little really meaningful choice available.

The Lib Dems are the nearest most people have to a viable alternative. At the last election under Charles Kennedy, they reflected public opinion in opposing the Iraq war, but under Nick Clegg they have become less radical than at any point in my lifetime.

The media limitation of debate to a narrow establishment consensus is not merely a problem at the national level. When I was a candidate in both Norwich North and Blackburn, the BBC broadcast candidates’ debates, but on each occasion I was not allowed to take part ?” even though I was a candidate ?” because the BBC was terrified their audience might hear something interesting. The Electoral Commission specifically recommends that all candidates be invited to take part in all hustings and candidates’ debates ?” but the Electoral Commission is a paper tiger with no powers of enforcement.

Censorship extends far beyond that. A traditional feature of British elections is the electoral communication, under which each candidate can send out a copy of their electoral address, delivered to every voter free by Royal Mail. Under another bit of Kafka-esque New Labour legislation, the Royal Mail now vets the content of every electoral address. The text must be seen and approved by a central Post Office unit before the leaflet can be printed and prepared for delivery.

So much for freedom of speech. The New Labour rationale for this is that the Royal Mail is checking the candidates’ election address does not fall foul of Britain’s notorious libel laws ?” the harshest and most restrictive of any western country. It also has to be cleared for many other laws restricting free speech, many of them introduced by New Labour ?” for example, that it does not “glorify” terrorism, or incite racism or homophobia.

So, if a candidate were to say in their election address that they believe Tony Blair and Jack Straw are war criminals, or (to take a topical example) that Christian bed and breakfast owners ought to be allowed to refuse gay couples, then their election address would be locked by the Royal Mail.

This is crazy. The Royal Mail delivers millions of letters every day. Some of them doubtless contain libellous and even racist statements. The Royal Mail does not open them all and check they are “legal”.

Actually, whisper that softly, we don’t want to give New Labour ideas.

Furthermore, in this case, it is not a court that decides if a statement is libellous, it is the Royal Mail. This is censorship of candidates during an election and without any court injunction. It says yet more about the cosy establishment clique that governs us that none of the major parties is up in arms about this.

Now, we come to the most fundamentally undemocratic aspect of British elections: the electoral system. It delivers massively disproportionate results with minority parties virtually unrepresented in parliament. At the last election, it delivered a good majority to an unpopular Tony Blair, even though New Labour received only 36% of votes cast ?” which represented just 22% of those entitled to vote.

But it does not favour the big parties evenly. New Labour can get a working majority with 34% of votes cast, while the Tories need 39%. If New Labour and the Tories both got 36%, New Labour would probably have almost 50 more seats. The Lib Dems could get 34%, yet win under half the seats that New Labour would get with the same percentage.

On top of which, we will see the irony of politicians rejected by the electorate being given comfy, paying seats in the House of Lords.

So, there we have British elections today: an unfair electoral system, censorship of candidates’ electoral addresses, little real political choice for voters, widespread postal ballot-rigging and elections administered by partisan council officials in a corrupt political climate.

Don’t be surprised if New Labour do that little bit better, when the votes are counted, than you might expect. As Joseph Stalin said, it is not who votes that counts, but who counts the votes.

So are British elections still free and fair? If this were a foreign election I was observing, I have no doubt that my answer would be no.

92 Comments

  1. Anonymous

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:57 am

    R U standing as a lib dem?

    Any whats the news in good old blackburn?

  2. Jarvis

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:20 am

    And if you do a search for your name nothing comes up.

    Similarly if you look at the list of contributors, your name doesn’t appear:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/list/contributors

    I see that even the tiresome and irrelevant Iain Dale is there, but you’ve been airbrushed out of it.

  3. mike cobley

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:30 am

    There are two aspects of electing an MP which are seldom mentioned. Firstly, a consitutency electorate is not just electing an MP to represent their interests in the House of Commons, they are also electing someone who will deliberate and argue and debate over issues which affect the nation. Secondly, when voting for an MP and his/her party one has to make a judgement on the content of their manifesto and how useful it will be in solving our problems – AND, we also have to judge if, when in office, this same MP and their party will be swayed/constrained by the public’s stance on vital issues. New Labour repeatedly and flagrantly defied the public’s demand to withdraw from Iraq and now Afghanistan: they are a gang of anti-democratic, pro-corporate thugs who deserve to be dragged along the street by the scruffs of their necks and pelted with rotten fruit. After a free and fair election, of course.

  4. dreoilin

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:42 am

    Craig, for what it’s worth, I thought the commenters were delighted to see something fresh, that they could get involved with and vent about. (Excuse me: With which they could get involved, and about which they could vent.)

    I’ve been watching some coverage (athough it’s terribly boring) of the election run-up so far, and a couple of things have struck me:

    Cameron is running on a slogan of “Change”, like Obama, which turned out to be no change at all (as Pilger points out) and secondly, he’s even being coached for the upcoming debates by the same person who coached Obama. However, he doesn’t have the charisma to carry it off.

    Thirdly, I was watching Fareed Zakaria on CNN Global, and he had on his panel an American woman (?) who was a former Deputy Editor of the Spectator and columnist for several British newspapers. Anne Applebaum. She began her remarks by saying, “In a two party situation like you have in the UK …”

  5. Paul Johnston

    12 Apr, 2010 - 12:12 pm

  6. d

    12 Apr, 2010 - 1:00 pm

    great article thanks, such a shame that the public at large suffer from enough cognitive dissonance issues that this may not even get through to them even if they read it.

    appreciated!

  7. Duncan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 1:23 pm

    So let me understand this; there’s no choice in British Politics because of the three main parties none supports both withdrawal from Afghanistan (LibDems do), scrapping of Trident (LibDems do) and ‘scepticism’ of the EU (whatever that means) (the Tories are pretty scepticial, LibDems want to get rid of the CAP). Look, I’m sorry you can’t find a party which exactly corresponds with your own views, but that’s life. From that fact to the claim they’re all alike is a non sequitur.

    As for whether they should be ‘more radical’ they’ve got smart bunnies running their policy departments; if it were the case that ‘radical’ made you more electable then they’d be more radical. Unfortunately as you learned in Norfolk radical doesn’t win you votes. As to the claim the LibDems are ‘less radical than they were under Kennedy’ I just think that’s evidently nonsense. They’re now running on a platform which includes the legalisation of cannabis, the scrapping of low rates of income tax, the overhaul of council tax, complete change of the national election system, and post-Kennedy a return to the 50% rate of income tax (something which was dropped and may return). Your contrast with the Iraq war makes little sense; Clegg, Campbell, Huhne, Cable and the others in charge of the party all opposed the war at the time and were it to happen again and I’m sure they’re oppose it all over. The reason Kennedy was ousted as leader was in part that he wasn’t felt to be radical /enough/. He did have a higher media profile, however, and the newspapers hate reporting on anything other than Labour and the Conservatives so the reason you might not know about the other points of the platform is because no one ever writes about it. Kennedy was slightly radical, Paddy Ashdown was not radical st all (and was quite a fan of New Labour). The LibDems under Campbell and Clegg, whatever else you may think, are more ‘radical’ than they’ve been since (at least) David Steel.

    Good stuff on the postal vote system but I wish you’d posted that in isolation from the rest. The rest of the article makes you sound like a chip-on-your-shoulder tin-foil-hat-wearing failed politico, which diminishes your credibility in a way which may be detrimental in getting your message across.

  8. Richard Robinson

    12 Apr, 2010 - 2:06 pm

    dreoilin – “Cameron is running on a slogan of “Change”, like Obama”

    They have posters up – “vote for change, vote conservative”. If words have any meaning at all, this is ridiculous.

  9. dreoilin

    12 Apr, 2010 - 2:31 pm

    Haha! Exactly.

    We have a very similar election ahead of us, you know. But not immediately.

  10. Craig

    12 Apr, 2010 - 3:14 pm

    Duncan,

    err I wish the Lib Dems did support withdrawal from Afghanistan. They most definitely do not. And the position on Trident “No like for like replacement” is a deliberate fudge to keep Ming and the militarists happy that could mean anything.

    I have just come back from dleivering Lib Dem election leaflets. Best choice we have. But due to Ming and Paddy and all those young careerists on MP’s staffs far too close to the cosy establishment consensus,

  11. Arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 4:26 pm

    Tha war against afganistan is one of those Major issue in which we should not bend.

    And now that you have done their donkey work by delivering their bits of paper, what will you get in return?

    Are they prepared to become Antiwar now that you have put their leaflets through doors?

    What have they agreed to change because of your help, or is it all for free?

    Craig the war against Afghanistan is a staging post for other wars. It is a mid points which requires at least two additional wars at its ends to fulfil its objectives.

    In the south at the end of the pipe and the north at its beginning. So Craig, if the lib dems are for the next set of wars, will you leave them after helping them gain seats? Or will you help them gain some more with the excuse they are still the best of the three?

  12. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 4:34 pm

    Isn’t what matters is if that particular Lib Dem candidate had voted/would vote against it?

  13. arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 4:54 pm

    Tech would a Zionist Party like the Lib dems offer a non-Zionists like Craig Murray a safe seat, so he could vote no to a Zionist war such as the one against Afghanistan?

    It isn’t just Labour who kickout or sideline non-Zionists in their ranks, lib dems have done the same.

    What makes anyone think that they will make a special exception for Craig?

  14. Jon

    12 Apr, 2010 - 5:42 pm

    @Duncan: ah, the old “practical” argument for realpolitik. It sounds so sensible, doesn’t it: let’s not be too radical, because the public don’t want it, and anyway enough of these silly conspiracy theories! The third and the middle way, and all that!

    Except: the British public do want radical. They want someone to be a champion of public services, which is supported in theory by the big three, but to varying degrees, not supported in practise by any of them. The Tories are mixed up in some worrying healthcare privatisation crowds, New Labour have been spending on defence and ID cards to such a degree that they’ll find cuts elsewhere hard to avoid, and Clegg mentions the necessity of cuts every time he opens his mouth.

    The public would like to see more in the way of prosecutions over the expenses scandal, but we have only a handful and whether they’ll come to fruition is doubtful anyway. Proper solutions – like the renting or purchasing of permanent MP housing close to Westminster, haven’t even been discussed.

    Ditto the banks: to their credit the Tories (surprisingly) and the Lib Dems have both mentioned reserving state bailouts for domestic banking only, but the public have grown cynical that this might actually make it into law. Their ill-founded frustration that “nothing will change” will turn out to be accidentally prescient; would any commenters here think it stands a good chance, given the lobbying power of the financial industry?

    So, if “radicalism” is not a vote winner, but the public want “radical”, what are the Lib Dems playing at? Well, it was perhaps the major part missing from your post: their manifesto is calculated to be acceptable to the media elite, not the public. Few anti-Zionist MPs on the Lib Dem benches are free to speak their mind, as we’ve seen with Jenny Tonge; the media elite have a different agenda to ordinary people. And I should think that position is sensible enough, in liberal circles at least, not to be dismissed as a conspiracy theory.

    I think your post says more about your conservative perspectives than it offers a sensible critique to Craig. You are opposed to “radical”, in whatever context, and I am guessing that the muted opposition we saw from the Lib Dems on Iraq was fine with you as well. You are of course welcome to your views, but painting opposing perspectives as “tin-foil hat” just because you disagree with them is not the best basis for a reasonable discourse.

  15. Jon

    12 Apr, 2010 - 5:45 pm

    @arsalan: it’s not reasonable to continually refer to the Lib Dems as a “Zionist Party”. Sure, they bend over backwards to “befriend Israel”, against all their principles, and Craig is on record that Kennedy sacked Tonge even though he didn’t want to do it. So – I suspect it would be closer to call them a “blackmailed party” instead. And I am not given to conspiracy theories, as I’ve mentioned before.

  16. Jon

    12 Apr, 2010 - 5:46 pm

    … and the war in Afghanistan is hardly Zionist. It’s corporatist, which as an influence is much more pervasive that the Israel lobby.

  17. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 6:27 pm

    Arsalan: I think Craig does support the existence of Israel, which I think in your eyes makes him a Zionist, but I’m sure plenty of Lib Dem MP’s are anti-war. I can’t find a website for it, and I can’t think of a Lib Dem MP (apart from Lembit Opik) at the moment. But you could check.

    Jon’s right, these are corporate wars, or the military-industrial complex’s wars. Not people’s wars.

  18. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 6:28 pm

    Sorry if I’ve got Craig’s position wrong?

  19. arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 6:37 pm

    Jon, Blackmail maybe their reason for supporting Zionism above their principles.

    And others have other reasons to go against their principles by supporting Zionism, such as bribery.

    It still makes them just as Zionist, it just means they are amongst the majority who are blackmailed in to Zionism.

    As apposed to the minority who are bribed in to Zionism.

    No one really believes in silly little racist ideologies such as Zionism or Nazism.

    They all have ulterior motives for going against their principles such as bribery, threats, alliances and vendettas to name a few.

    Why use Zionism to describe the war against Afghanistan?

    Because it is the same thing. except with a different chosen people and a different inferior race.

    In this case the white man is the chosen people while the afghans are lesser races fit only to be governed by a higher chosen race.

    And the oil in central Asia is the promised land!

  20. rob

    12 Apr, 2010 - 6:59 pm

    Craig, I don’t want to divert attention from your article but it seems to me that the treatment of it is typical of a real wind of change in the Guardian. There is, I think, a significant move to the right despite some of the old lefties who are still flailing about trying to square the circle. Can it really be that they are (like the BBC) trying to lick anatomy prior to a tory win? Jeez I hope not. But in fact my feeling is worse than that: my sense is of a deterioration (with a few honourable exceptions) of intelligent comment and opinion. There seems to be poorer intellectual rigour. I feel that they are going for a new market with a more naive level of analysis. I suppose they need to make money and are dumbing down, even if they retain a few of the old hands.

  21. arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 7:02 pm

    technicolour

    I’m not sure what his position is, all I know is it isn’t my position, because he did say he doesn’t agree with my position.

    Mine is a reversal of the middle east carve up that that the British and French did after WW1 including what is now known as Israel.

    That way all the Palestinians who were kicked out of their homes in Palestine can go back to them. And Jews who may have losted their homes anywhere in the middle east can go back to them. No one would need to be expelled anywhere at anytime because all the land will belong to everyone.

    The other non-Zionist solution is the one state solution, or the South African model. This would mean the abolishing the Palestinian authority in the way the so called Black homelands were abolished in South Africa. It would result in all of the land between the river and the sea being declared one state, all the people in that land being granted full equality and full citizenship as happened in South Africa after the end of apartheid. This is popular amongst the left. It would result in no one being expelled, whether Arabs in Pre1967 or Jews in post. The reason why this would be a Non-Zionist solution is Palestinians are already the majority between the river and the sea. So if it is one man one vote, Israel will no longer be a Jewish state, less so if the Palestinians who were kicked out decided to come back. If there was full equality, they would have that right, but even if none decide to come back, Palestinians will still be the majority.

    The third solution is the two state solution. Or the South African Apartheid solution.

    This is based on the South African modal during apartheid. At its best it would require hundreds of thousands of Jews to be expelled from the west bank. It would also require Palestinians to be expelled at intervals to keep a Jewish majority because of the high Palestinian birth rate. It would allow Israel to claim to be democratic by taking away citizenship from all Palestinians it expels.

  22. Anonymous

    12 Apr, 2010 - 7:08 pm

    That was actually what south Africa did to claim to be democratic. It declared tiny camps in the worst lands as independent black countries, and expelled blacks from all over South Africa to does so called independent countries.

  23. Anonymous

    12 Apr, 2010 - 7:10 pm

    I find it strange that leftists who picketed against South African Apartheid, are now recommending that same system to the Palestinians?

  24. MJ

    12 Apr, 2010 - 8:23 pm

    technicolour/arsalan: last January Craig made it clear he did not recognise Israel’s right to exist. “Let me say it loud and clear. I do not believe in Israel’s right to exist” he wrote. See:

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/01/the_limits_of_f.html

  25. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 8:55 pm

    Oh. Cheers, MJ. I’ll read it.

  26. Arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:18 pm

    I thought as much.

  27. Toby

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:19 pm

    I’ve read that article of Craig’s and what he seems to be arguing for is the single state solution. This would involve the dismantling of the current racist Israeli state and its replacement with a state which recognised all the people within the current Israeli state and the occupied territories as equal citizens within a single state.

    In the Israelis keeness to hold onto the occupied territories they themselves are making this solution more likely. They’re just too stupid and racist to realise it.

    This is a better solution than what’s called the two state solution because the Israelis aren’t interested in two states. They’re only interested in their state and mini bantustans for Palestinians which the Israelis would control anyway.

    Israel doesn’t have any special right to exist in its present illegal and racist constitution, at least not in the minds of decent people.

  28. dreoilin

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:28 pm

    Very interesting. I had forgotten all about that. Thanks MJ.

  29. MJ

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:39 pm

    I’ve just realised that I made my very first comment to Craig’s blog on that thread. It provoked a major complaint from some leading British Zionist accusing me of being anti-semitic and, by extention, Craig too for not deleting it. Tee hee. Made my day as I recall.

  30. arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:46 pm

    Leading British Zionists call the sun antisemitic when it doesn’t come out to dry their underpants.

    They say it so much, that it has become a reflex.

  31. Leading British Zionist

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:48 pm

    I had a cup of Coffee today, and it was antisemitic because it burnt my will when I spilt it on my lap!

  32. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:49 pm

    MJ: re Israel piece; hard to revist those feelings about Gaza again. Classic polemic about Israel, though. Left me thinking (among other things) that Israel does exist, so what now?

    Have no real right to comment, beyond humanitarianism, but I like the vision of a peaceful single state too, naturally. Presumably that would mean both governments agreeing on something, to start with. Or, more simply, for the people to ignore the governments and tear the walls down themselves, of course. Hard to do.

    What would you do, I wonder, Arsalan or MJ, if you had been born in Israel? Would you leave? Where to? Arasalan, I know wants to leave the UK, but why shouldn’t all of us who recognise our government’s complicity in mass murder leave?

    Or perhaps you would join the Shminitsim? You know, the Israeli conscientious objectors?

    http://december18th.org/

    This is why, Arsalan, I object to you calling all people living in Israel ‘Zionists’ when you equate Zionism with Nazism. Shminitism aside, as I keep pointing out, and you keep ignoring, the majority of people in Israel are in favour of dialogue, not fighting.

    You saw this about white South Africans, so why not about Jewish people?

    Whatever, I don’t blame anyone for failing to describe this situation in a word, though, unless that word is ‘insane’. John Pilger’s going for ‘Americanism’ I notice, but that seems wrong too, like calling Nazism ‘Germanism’.

  33. arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:52 pm

    technicolour, have you read what I wrote, or do you just imagine what I write yourself and type a response.

    Read again:

    Posted by: arsalan at April 12, 2010 7:02 PM

  34. MJ

    12 Apr, 2010 - 9:53 pm

    It was brilliant. His name was Jonathan Hoffman. His complaint led to a excellent thread of its own. Ah, happy days.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/01/boring_boring_b.html

  35. MJ

    12 Apr, 2010 - 10:00 pm

    “if you had been born in Israel? Would you leave?”

    technicolor. Absolutely not. I’d stay and enjoy the (eventual) peace. I’ve lived in Israel – on two separate occasions for a few months each time – and it’s difficult to describe the underlying tension of the place. It is a garrison state. Soldiers use public transport. You can’t go on a bus without having a couple of rifles inadvertently pointing at you. Getting out is such a relief if you don’t like that sort of thing.

  36. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 10:00 pm

    Btw arsalan, would just like to double check. You keep saying that Zionists are not Jewish, so you are not being anti-Jewish. It is a rotten, miserable thing to be anti-Jewish, I agree, like being anti-Muslim.

    So you are just being ‘against the government of Israel and its supporters’. OK, so you go on to extend that to everyone living in Israel, but I’ve addressed that above.

    As far as I know, one is born Jewish, like being born German. Whether one is a Zionist or not has nothing to do with it. So, out of interest, when you talk to your children, or your family in general, do you use the word ‘Jewish’ either

    a) never

    b) sometimes

    c) mainly

  37. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 10:04 pm

    I meant in this kind of context, obviously. Maybe you refuse to subject your children & friends to such bitter realities, and who can blame you.

  38. MJ

    12 Apr, 2010 - 10:05 pm

    “As far as I know, one is born Jewish”

    Not necessarily. You can convert. Also, you’re only deemed Jewish by birth if your mother is. If you have a Jewish father and a gentile mother then no joy I’m afraid. Unless you convert.

  39. arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 10:22 pm

    Tech

    Zionist means Zionist and Jew means Jew.

    I don’t believe I insult Jews by insulting Zionists because I agree with Natricarter and other Jewish groups that there is no such thing as a Jewish Zionist.

    Most Zionists are Atheists, the few that aren’t are apostates and heretics.

    When I say Zionists I am referring to people who believing in that ideology, including right wing Evangelical American churches, and heretical cults that have broken away from Islam forming religions such as the Qadyanis.

    Tec I have repeated this to you enough times.

    Let this be the last.

    Zionist means someone who believes it is OK for white European Jews to go to Palestine and kick out brown Palestinians both Muslim and Christian, because of the slogan that “God gave this land to us”.

    Some people who believe this claim to be Christians, other claim to be Muslim, but most admit to being atheists.

    (Even though few if any of them believe in God.)

    So lets be clear on this, Zionism I mean Nazism.

    Hitler was a Zionist who believed Germany was his Israel, Germans were his chosen people, and the Jews were his amalikites.

  40. Craig

    12 Apr, 2010 - 10:40 pm

    I don;t support the two state solution. I support a single, race blind, secular state. I regard both the state of Israel and Hamas as weirdo theocratic aberrations.

  41. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 10:41 pm

    MJ: Thanks for reminder that reality changes. Sounds like Belfast in the 80′s.

    Arsalan, I may have missed a post while thinking, so sorry if there is any misunderstanding. I was mainly responding to your earlier post which first said that there was no ideology behind the invasion of Afghanistan, just bribery and blackmail, then that there was an ideology – racial superiority – and in summary that it was all Zionist.

    I can see a conflation of the first two, the latter pumped up by the media. But Zionism, as you know, was the search for, and creation of, a Jewish homeland.

    Whatever we’re doing in Afghanistan, the connection with Israel is not an ‘ism’. It is that both governments are prepared to be equally ruthless, and against the wishes of the electorate. It’s also that in both cases the paid aggressors are armed by the world’s largest arms dealers (the UK/USA corporations). No surprise there; so are the Indonesians, the Saudis; the Congolese etc etc etc.

    I did read your interesting comments about future possibilities. I see that arguing for a two state solution sounds strangely like arguing for apartheid, but it isn’t, is it? It’s more like the splitting of Ireland and the drawing up of the Six Counties.

    Which had its own severe price and I agree; a peaceful one state solution can only seem preferable. I suppose there will have to be stages to reaching it. In Ireland now, I was starting to forget which was which, but I see the ‘Real IRA’ have started bombing again for some reason. Protection money, probably. Think everyone’s very bored of them, though.

    It’s noticeable that Hamas are desperate enough to do it.

    Pilger’s calling it ‘Americanism’ rather than ‘Zionism’, you might be interested to know.

  42. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 10:54 pm

    Sorry; that slipped through. It’s noticeable that Hamas have been desperate enough to back the 1967 borders, I meant.

  43. dreoilin

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:10 pm

    “It’s more like the splitting of Ireland and the drawing up of the Six Counties.”

    –tech

    But after the area had been “planted” a few centuries before, with Protestant Loyalists. Which is rather like what Israel is doing in the West Bank now.

    “I see the ‘Real IRA’ have started bombing again for some reason. Protection money, probably.”

    No, they’re a splinter group who think Sinn Fein sold out on a United Ireland, and they want to start the violence all over again. But they are small in number.

    “Think everyone’s very bored of them, though.”

    No, not bored, rather worried. Because a majority both North and South do not want a return to violence. And this group could provoke a reaction from violent Loyalists.

  44. arsalan

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:16 pm

    Tec there are big difference between Ireland and Israel. When the UK ruled all of Ireland, all the Irish were British citizens.

    If an Irish person left the country he could go back anytime he wanted, and he could go and live in the UK if he wanted.

    I think who are falling for the two state solution are walking into a great big elephant trap with their eyes wide open. Israel to kick ever greater numbers of Palestinians out of their homes. And if two states are ever declared, I fear that the Palestinians in what they call Israel will be expelled in to the second state, just as the blacks in South Africa were expelled in to the Bantuistans.

    The reason why Israel has excepted the two state solution now, when it had always fought it is the Palestinians are now the majority in all the land controlled by the Zionists. They can no longer pretend to be Democratic any more. So they have to declare Gaza and the west bank as another country.

    But Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are already a quarter of the population. The change in demography had been slowed down previously by emptying the former soviet union, Ethiopia and anywhere else of any one claiming to have some Jewish ancestry. They cant do that anymore because the world is now empty, they have already taken everyone would would consider going. They have stretched the meaning of Jew that it is now impossible to stretch it anymore.

    So now the question must be answer, what will happen when the 25% of Palestinians with Israeli citizenship reach 50%?

    Will they be exterminated or expelled for Israel to be both a Jewish state and a democracy as happened when Israel was founded?

    Because I don’t believe they will through in the towel, admit it was all just a big Mistake and hand power over to the Palestinians like the South Africans did.

    Will Israel admit it was never a democracy and always an apartheid state?

  45. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:42 pm

    Arsalan, I can’t keep repeating myself either. I’d understand you more if you reserved your main ire for the governments, but from you are basically accusing every person living under every government of equal complicity in that government’s crimes. Which, unfortunately, would make just about all of us guilty of something.

    A kind of warped version of original sin, in fact. Can’t agree, I’m afraid.

  46. Suhayl Saadi

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:49 pm

    “Will they be exterminated or expelled for Israel to be both a Jewish state and a democracy as happened when Israel was founded?

    Because I don’t believe they will through in the towel, admit it was all just a big Mistake and hand power over to the Palestinians like the South Africans did.”

    Arsalan

    Absolutely. Expulsion (Nakba Mark II or III) is what will happen. They are quite open about it; it may not be official policy, but it’s spoken about widely and the flags have been up for some time. They will not tolerate losing their majority. If they do take a one state solution, they will immediately expel all Arabs, so creating their dream. They know they will get away with it. If they did it tomorrow morning, nothing would happen to Israel. Nothing ever does. Teflon. Titanium. Uranium. Plutonium. BANG.

    “Power grows out of the barrel of a gun”. Mao was right about that. Horribly, sadly, tragically.

    But Arsalan, while I would love things to go back to the way they were pre-1917 (or even pre-1947), and for people to regard all the land as everyone’s, that’s not going to happen either.

    Given the instransigence of the Israeli state and the loyal dog-like support it gets from the USA, I honestly don’t see a good solution that is realistically going to happen.

    I see only blood.

  47. technicolour

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:50 pm

    dreoilin: thanks. Yes, quite. I only belatedly found out what it meant to people who had belonged to Ireland to be effectively ripped away from their homeland.

    arsalan; I’m off to bed but will read in the morning, thanks

  48. Suhayl Saadi

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:52 pm

    Yeah, one ought to draw a distinction b/w people and the state – I realise emotionally the lines gets blurred at times, but I think it’s important for the maintenance of our own humanity, if for no other reason, that we do continue to draw that final line.

  49. Suhayl Saadi

    12 Apr, 2010 - 11:57 pm

    Dreoilin, yes, the British State has always been the most adept of all at cleverly instigating divide-and-rule and in some ways may be regarded as one of the most deeply imperialist states in the world. Planting ‘Unionist’ settlers was a typical act. As I’ve said on another thread, over the centuries, the situation regarding Ireland was/ is an ‘exemplar’ of British imperialism.

  50. arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 8:34 am

    tec I have already tried to explain it every which way.

    Zionist doesn’t mean Israeli!!!

    If it did it would include the 1/4 of the population who are Palestinian.

    Zionist means someone who believes in that Nazi Idiology.

    They may not have ever been to what you call Israel, may claim to be a Christian or even a Muslim. But if they believe in that racist idiology, that “God gave this land to us, and not the people that live their”.

    Why do you keep saying I am attacking people because they have Israeli citizenship, or people for being born there. I have never said any of that.

    I am attacking people for being racists, whereever they are born, whereever they live and what ever religion they claim to belong to.

    I don’t know where you get this idea from that it is about Jews?

    Again I repeat Hitler was a Zionist.

    in hitlers Zionism, the germans were God’s chosen people. Germany was the promised land. People like the Polish were the Palestinians.

    So when I attack Zionism I attack Hitler just as much as a attack the Zionists who believe Palestine is their promised land.

  51. arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 8:49 am

    Suhayl Saadi

    I agree things are getting worse.

    What I am saying is Israel is using the call for Pre 67 to make the lives of palestinians a lot worse. And it is clear that once final status has been reached on pre 67, things will be much worse than they are now.

    It looks like the west bank will be “given back” in gaza like strips, where life would be worse than gaza due to no access to the sea or tunnels from egypt. Things would be worse still for the hundreds of thousand of Palestinians traped between the Israeli side of the wall and the Palestinian side of the border, because Israel will want to make their lives so hard that they will move to the other side of the wall.

    And then their are the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, Israel has stated their towns and villiages would be handed over in exchange for all the land Israel will take in the westbank.

    Which means they will lose citizenship in the south african way.

  52. Arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 9:02 am

    I think Israel will not give anything unless it is made to do it. America can not make Israel do anything, because Israel is the one who makes America do things.

    The solution has to come from us, because it isn’t going to come from them.

    pre17 isn’t just about sorting out the problems in Palestine, the whole of the middle east needs fixing and everyone there knows it.

    Europe in unifying inspite of all the different languages there. It has been made clear to Turkey that it is not welcome in the new Christian club. So we need our own EU. And I believe that unified voice and action is the only way to fix Palestine.

    What I am saying is the likes of France have made it clear that the EU is a christian club where Muslims(Turkey) are not welcome.

    We need to bring back our Khilafah in which Jews(Israel) and everyone else were always welcome, and will always be welcome.

  53. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Apr, 2010 - 10:56 am

    “The solution has to come from us, because it isn’t going to come from them.

    pre17 isn’t just about sorting out the problems in Palestine, the whole of the middle east needs fixing and everyone there knows it.

    Europe in unifying in spite of all the different languages there. It has been made clear to Turkey that it is not welcome in the new Christian club. So we need our own EU. And I believe that unified voice and action is the only way to fix Palestine.” Arsalan

    I know.

  54. MJ

    13 Apr, 2010 - 11:22 am

    “Zionism was the dream of a Jewish homeland in and around Jerusalem”.

    No. Zionism was the dream of a Jewish homeland. Zionism’s founder, Herzl, at one point suggested Kenya. Although Palestine was the preferred option it was by no means a prerequisite.

  55. arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 11:28 am

    Tec firstly, Zionists lie when they state their Jewish homeland is in the Bible.

    That isn’t bending of the truth, it is a lie.

    It is a blatantly obvious lie, because the inventor of the lie, Theodor Herzl was an Atheist who did not believe in the Bible or God.

    If it was in the Bible Jews would have always attempted to gain this fatherland. But that never happened. Quite the opposite religious Jews state, that it is forbidden to attempt to create it as it has been promised that a Prophet will come who will bestow that land peacefully.

    Zionists don’t believe in God or the bible and its prophecies so they ignored the bible that forbids them to create Israel because they don’t believe in that rule in the Bible, the bible, the Prophet that is promised or God.

    Let me be clear, the Jewish fatherland is not in the bible, they lie when they say it is. The Bible actually forbids them from creating their Nazi fatherland.

    I have repeated many times that the Nazis copied the Zionists. This obviously means Zionism existed before Nazism!

    To create the Zionist fatherland in Palestine it would require the extermination or expulsion of the lesser races who were their first.

    And Hitler copied this idea to do what he did. to his own lesser races.

  56. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 11:30 am

    Well, yes MJ, and Uganda was also suggested, I believe. But the word Zionism comes from Mount Zion (and was apparently dreamed up by a publicist in 1891).

  57. arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 11:41 am

    MJ many places were suggested. Uganda by the British and Madagasca by the Germans. all would have required the extermination/expulsion of the lesser races there first.

    tec, Zionism was founded before Nazi Germany, so it wasn’t a reaction to it.

    As you mentioned Zionists and Nazis worked togeather, at least in the beginning.

    They both wanted the samething, Jews out of Europe.

    Tec you have a very strang logic. You are repeat the propagander of Zionists.

    I think you need to click on some webpages written by non-Zionist Jews, to realise Judaism and Zionism are nothing to do with each other.

    Here is a list of how Zionists helped Hitler kill Jews:

    http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust.htm

  58. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Apr, 2010 - 11:43 am

    Technicolour, I didn’t realise you are a Dr Who fan! The new one’s pretty darned good, I think. As is his assistant.

    “Let me be clear, the Jewish fatherland is not in the bible, they lie when they say it is.”

    Arsalan

    Yes, I believe there are actually some Jews who will not acknowledge Israel because of this.

    Arsalan does make a powerful point when he illumines the common late C19th European nationalism – Germanic constructs of a united ‘promised’ fatherland, etc. inhabited only by a ‘chosen’ people – out of which arose both Zionism and Nazism. The lead-lined intolerance that resides at the centre of Zionism comes from this essential irrationality.

    I think that in the absence of a strong, united Arab/Muslim ‘world’ compelling some form of real negotiated settlement, the imperial project at the centre which Zionism increasingly and very deliberately has come to position itself, will proceed apace, and that project includes, and metaphysically centres-on, the Levant.

    Till then, when one takes the long-view, the children everywhere have been betrayed.

  59. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 12:11 pm

    Arsalan, I’m not repeating anyone’s arguments. I’m thinking it through. As I said, I think a peaceful one state solution is the ideal. Meanwhile I’ve encountered Jews against Zionism on peace marches. Brave people. Interesting website. Not approporiate to the largely secular Jews I know. But I suppose you don’t acknowledge them, since they’re not religious. I, on the other hand, do.

    Hitler may have taken some ideas from Zionism. He also took and twisted ideas from Nietzsche (who would have rolled in his grave in horror and despair); the Tibetans, advertisers; blah blah blah. That does not make him a Zionist. Or a Nitzschean. Or a Buddhist.

    Suhayl; it is all very informative. I see the analogy. But the Germans already had a national homeland. They were not fleeing persecution (and Arsalan, I said that Zionism was partly a response to ‘people like Hitler’. Jewish people suffered at the hands of both sides in World War 1 again specifically because they were Jewish; the ‘other’).

    Hitler wanted, not a homeland, but an Empire; hence the Third Reich. He used the Zionist leaders. They thought they could use him. What ordinary Jewish people felt is there for people to read, in everything from Defying Hitler to Anne Frank’s diaries.

    (and yes, I thought Dr Who was rather great)

  60. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 1:32 pm

    It seems to me that while we can concentrate on the sufferings of the victims, and that ideal visions of the future can only help, we must urgently take responsibility for the country in which we live and pay taxes, and for the government which we tolerate. We need to insist on a fundamental change; and yet even here in the UK, without soldiers on our buses and checkpoints on our streets, we seem incapable of doing so. Why?

    Apaprently Eastenders has a current story line about a teenager wanting to join up and fight in Afghanistan. According to the Morning Star, his mother (Carol) is dead against this, and saying that it is a war about cheap oil and gas, not about ‘terrorism’. The arts are fighting back!

  61. arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 2:04 pm

    Tech the reason why I don’t acknowledge Atheists as Jews is when you do so things become contradictory.

    This idea is key to the Zionist’s false sense of nationalism. And this idea is also key to why religious Jews so firmly reject Zionism as a heresy and not just a sin.

    The idea can be summed up by a question:

    Is Judaism a race or a religion?

    If you consider it a race, so include people who do not believe in Judaism in to it why end the definition at Jews and Atheists?

    If a Jew who rejects Judaism and God is still a Jew, is a Jew who converts to another religion still a Jew?

    Is a Jew who converts to Christianity still a Jew?

    If so, what of Jews who convert to Islam?

    If it is about race and genetics, and not about belief what about their Children? For have many generations would they remain Jewish? Because if there is a number, then the same will apply to all the Atheist Zionists.

    And if there is no number, then it would mean the Palestinians are Jews!

    Jews with a much Purer genetic Judaism than the white ones from Europe or the black ones from Ethiopia.

    So if you want to say Judaism is a race than Zionism means the extermination and expulsion of true Jews from their homeland by European with little or no Jewish ancestry.

    It would mean Zionism is a genocide against the Jewish people, not one perpetrated by them.

    Some use this argument, but I don’t because it is silly. Palestinians even the many who have their family trees documented so know their ancestors were once Jews do not call themselves Jews, they call themselves Christians and Muslims.

    People can convert in to and out of Judaism, so it can not be a race or ethnicity in any shape or form.

    So the AntiZionist Israeli convert to Christianity Israel Shamir a Christian not a Jew, The once Israeli but now living in Mororoco convert to Islam Yusuf khattab, ex Josiph Cohn a Muslim not a Jew. So I call all Zionists atheists not Jews.

  62. Charles Crawford

    13 Apr, 2010 - 2:06 pm

    The Guardian is a fine, sensible and moderate newspaper, well able to spot ex-ambassadorial rubbish when it sees it.

    Charles

  63. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Apr, 2010 - 2:44 pm

    Who needs enemies…? Mr Crawford, the deliberately provocative tone and content of your remark, if taken without irony, is as profound an indictment of The Guardian in this regard as any I can imagine.

  64. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 2:56 pm

    Charles, you consistently fail to reply to questions, after your occasional ninja postings. I’m sure you’d like more business on your blog, but it is quite rude, like shouting at people & then running away. Otherwise I’d ask you what ‘rubbish’, specifically?

    Arsalan. This is silly, as you say. You know very well that an atheist Jewish person can still consider themselves Jewish and be perceived to be Jewish, by virtue of birth, tradition and community. The same would apply to an Aran Islander, though being an Aran Islander is neither a race nor a religion. How God would judge it, I don’t know and nor, as Suhayl has pointed out, do you.

    I appreciate that splitting hairs on this may in fact be a way to stop appalling knee-jerk bigotry. I hope it is. Would your arguments have convinced the people who beat up my friend? They were not interested in whether he was Jewish or not, remember. Never mind whether he was a Zionist atheist Jew or a Zionist Orthodox Jew, or a non-Zionist atheist Jew or a non-Zionist religious Jew. They beat him up because he *looked* Jewish.

    Do you not think that associating Zionism with just about every evil perpetrated by man might encourage this attitude?

    And, after all, why Zionism? In your book the Zionists were not really Zionists at all, in fact, but Boers (the aggressive racial/nationalist movement which came first). Was Hitler a Boer?

    And since you use it about Afghanistan, surely Crusadism is more appropriate? Or colonialism? Or, bearing Chechnya in mind, Russianism?

    As you say, silly.

  65. Arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 3:57 pm

    Tech The reason why I use the terms Zionism and Nazism interchangeably is because they are interchangeable terms for identical ideologies.

    Just as some Zionists fain a religious justification for their racist beliefs.

    Nazis do the exact something, using exactly the same words and references.

    You have heard of the CHRISTIAN IDENTITY MOVEMENT, that is the religious arm of Nazism. I wasn’t just saying what I did in earlier posts about swapping words between Nazism and Zionism.

    I was quoting.

    That is exactly the religious justification the Nazis used for what they did. Word for word, dead for dead.

    Tech people who smash up Jews or people who look like Jews are Zionists, not anti-Zionists.

    They have exactly the same objectives.

    Nazis want Jews out of Europe and in to Palestine and Zionists want Jews out of Europe and in to Palestine.

    That is why Zionists organisations helped Hitler. You say Hitler used them, while they claim they tried to use Hitler. But whoever was using who, what is in agreement is they did work together on their common objective and it hasn’t ended.

    You can see NeoNazi skin heads marching hand in hand with Israeli Zionists on the streets on England waving each others flags.

    It is not us who are smashing up Jews in the UK, it is them, the Zionists, the Nazis. And as far as I can see they are both the same.

    It isn’t us who link hands with neonazis with Jewish blood on their hands, it is the Zionists.

    They are the cause of Jews being beaten up, not us. It is part of their objective to get Jews to leave the UK, and enter Palestine, not ours.

    We want Jews to be as comfortable as possible here, because ever Jew that leaves here to go their results in a Palestinian family being expelled or exterminated.

  66. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 5:50 pm

    So now there are Zionist Neo Nazi Muslims, since they were the people who beat my friend up. Great.

    “The Nazis denounced both capitalism and communism, accusing both of being associated with Jewish influences and interests.[16] They claimed that capitalism damages nations due to international finance, the economic dominance of big business, and Jewish influences within it.”

    It’s the ‘Jewish’ bit that’s sinister. Why? Because generalised blame of ‘Big Business’ (popular among us all, hey) is suddenly switched to a specific and vulnerable minority. Now replace ‘Jewish’ with ‘Zionist’. Does it sound familiar? It’s on wiki.

    Arsalan, the Nazis were not Christians. The Nazis persecuted Christians. Read Corrie Ten Boom, or Alfred Andersch. Zionism and Nazism are not interchangeable ideologies, unless you also want to throw in the Boers, the Crusaders and the Roman Empire. Zionism is the creation of a *Jewish* homeland.

    Nazism “was a unique variety of fascism that involved biological racism and anti-Semitism” (wiki).

    I appreciate your answers, and have found them interesting, and informative, so thank you. But you’ve not addressed many of my points, although I keep trying to contemplate yours, so let’s stop now, shall we?

  67. Ethical Foreign Policy

    13 Apr, 2010 - 6:00 pm

    The likes of Charles Crawford dare not engage in debate.

    Their whole world is one of fabrication, evasions, half truths and outright lies. To engage in genuine debate would expose them the frauds..

    Ironically their only honesty is in running away from genuine debate, relying instead on smears and an occasional sniping from the periphery.

    Sadly media is today filled to overflowing with such creatures.

    Occasionally though one of them lets the mask slip and blurts out a truth. This is generally followed by shock, astonishment, much concern in media circles, followed by abject apologies until the media world is at ease again.

    Sometimes, just sometimes, there is a Craig Murray who doesn’t apologise.

    There’s an altogether different treatment for them, not unlike the one Charles prefers.

  68. Moshe

    13 Apr, 2010 - 6:09 pm

    You can quite bogged down in language and definitions of this and that.

    I suppose it’s more important to ask what the experience of Zionism has felt like to the Palestinians.

    It’s probably the decent thing to do, to allow the victims of Zionism to call it as they wish. They’ve sufferered enough to be allowed that at least.

    If they want to call it Nazism, who am I to object, especially since it does appear quite like Nazism to me too.

    If Sir Gerald Kaufman can use the term Nazism in connection with the current Israeli regime, who is anyone to obect, especially on grounds of abstract definitions.

  69. Arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 6:29 pm

    “So now there are Zionist Neo Nazi Muslims”

    They were probably just the local thugs looking to beat anyone up.

    We have them too.

    “Now replace ‘Jewish’ with ‘Zionist’”

    It is the Zionists who say attacking Zionism/Israel is attacking Judaism to silence people. And I have no problem with attacking Zionists. Attacking it is attacking people for being racist because Zionism is a racist ideology.

    Attacking Zionism has as little to do with attacking Jews as attacking Nazism has to do with Attacking German people.

    So yes, may attacking on Zionists may seem like other peoples attacks on others. But that is irrelevant. Zionism is a nasty belief, so there is nothing wrong in attacking it.

    I am against Zionism because it preaches

    extermination and expulsion of natives.

    In the past Zionists claim being against

    Zionism would make me anti Jew because NeoNazis claimed they were Anti Zionism too.

    But they can’t do that any more because now Zionists and neoNazis have formed an alliance.

    And they deserve each other.

    “Arsalan, the Nazis were not Christians”

    Tech: Zionists are not Jews.

    The Zionists persecuted Jews and helped Hitler slaughter them.

    Read the Jewish links that I keep putting up.

    ” Zionism is the creation of a *Jewish* homeland.”

    Please tell me how that would be different to creating an Arian homeland?

    Please tell me how the Hitler’s expulsion and extermination to create his homeland was any different to Zionism expulsion and extermination of lesser races?

    I think I have addressed all your points?

    at least I have tried to and think I have?

    To be honest tech I am against all nationalism, especially if it means extermination, expulsion or discrimination against the other.

    And Craig I don’t regard your friends in the SNP as nationalists, they are patriots. This is because they regard everyone living in Scotland as a Scott.

    Nationalism in SNP is referring to nation as a land, not as a people.

  70. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 6:38 pm

    “If Sir Gerald Kaufman can use the term Nazism in connection with the current Israeli regime, who is anyone to obect”

    Oh, I daresay I could object to things that Gerard Kaufman says, if I put my mind to it. But in this case, he compared the behaviour of the Israeli government and military to the behaviour of the Nazis, and I agree with him.

    He did not call all Zionists Nazis, or call the invasion of Afghanistan Zionist. He did not describe Zionism as ‘interchangeable’ with Nazism. He did not, in fact, form part of this discussion.

  71. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 6:49 pm

    I mean, I agree with Kaufman’s right to do that. I wouldn’t compare them to Nazis. Along with Pilger, I feel the term is unhelpful. It brings up such specific, historical images that the current and real suffering of the Palestinians threatens to be overwhelmed by them.

  72. Arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 7:15 pm

    Tech

    The victims of Nazism are themselves stating Zionism is Nazism.

    http://www.ercolinamilanesi.com/storici/zionism_nazi.jpg

    I had a discussion with a young Nazi once(It does happen, I’m a pale skin so it is hard for them to know whether I am a potential recruit or a lesser race), and he stated “What ever is fruitful is true”.

    That is their belief, not ours. For us whether something is useful of unhelpful is irrelevant. Truth is truth and falsehood is falsehood.

    So Zionism is Nazism, that is a statement of fact whether it is unhelpful or not.

    The might believe in a different master race, but they both have a master race.

    They might believe in a different fatherland but they both have a fatherland. They might believe in different lesser peoples, but they both believe in lesser peoples that need to be exterminated, expelled or dominated.

    I say they are the same, because they are.

    I use Zionism as an insult to describe the invasion of Afghanistan because Zionism is a horrible thing.

    Being called a Zionist is as bad as being called a Nazi, because they mean the same thing.

    True Zionist wont regard it as an insult if you call them Zionists, but Nazis don’t regard it as an insult if you call the Nazis.

    But once a Nazi did complain to me when I called a Zionist a Nazi, because he took it as an insult to Nazism.

    I don’t care, I have them both and they are both as bad as each other.

  73. Anonymous

    13 Apr, 2010 - 7:17 pm

    last sentence was meant to be “hate them both”

  74. Anonymous

    13 Apr, 2010 - 7:18 pm

  75. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 8:07 pm

    Arsalan, we seem to have covered a lot of ground. If I said ‘unhelpful’, it was because I meant that, for me, the truth of the historical images of Nazi atrocities was in danger of obliterating the truth of what is happening here and now.

    And I do not want the image of thousands upon thousands of piled up bodies of skeletal people in death pits to replace the images of a civilian population being bombed with white phosphorous. Or the queues of Palestinians standing for hours to cross the borders. Or the famers being shot at while they try to collect olives. Or the ambulance drivers being shot. Or.

  76. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 8:30 pm

    Did he really say ‘whatever is fruitful is true?’ Is that what they’re parrotting?

    ‘By their fruits shall ye know them’, I say, and I’m not even claiming to be a Christian.

  77. Arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 8:40 pm

    For the Palestinians the images that you do not want to imagine are life.

    And Israel has piled up thousands upon thousands of corpses. Sabra and Shatil for example.

    The only difference between the way Israel is doing things and the way the Nazis done things as Norman Finklestien said, is the Nazi made an attempt at hiding what they did, locating the extermination centres in places like Poland to hide their true face from their population while the Zionist do what they do in plane view.

    In Deir Yassin massacre for example, they killed everyone in the attack. The few women and children that survived were taken to West Jerusalem to be paraded, beaten spat on by cheering crowds just before they too were tortured and killed.

    Another difference is When what the Nazis did became known, the Nazis were tried and executed for their crimes, while the commanders of both the above massacres were elected prime minister.

  78. Arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 8:46 pm

    Yes, that was an exact quote.

    And that is really what Nazism and Zionism is based on.

    The people who invented it knew all that racist crap was nonsense.

    They just thought they can use it as a unifying force.

    the Nazi didn’t use the word lie for their one version though. They stated the Jews lie about their Nationalism, while we have invented a myth for ours.

    Both of them know they have identical ideologies, to the extent that both claim theirs is for a good reason while the other’s is for a bad.

  79. arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 8:51 pm

    The Jenin Refugee Camp Massacre of 2002: ‘Horrific beyond Belief’

    13/04/2010 01:30:34 PM GMT Comments (1) Add a comment Print E-mail to friend

    a??They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, BUT I GAVE NO ONE A CHANCE. I didna??t wait. I didna??t give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible, I didna??t give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didna??t just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.a?

  80. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 9:40 pm

    Arsalan, what do you suggest people here do to help?

  81. dreoilin

    13 Apr, 2010 - 10:07 pm

    “The new order makes it a criminal act for anyone to live in the West Bank without a permit. Violators can be sentenced to up to seven years in prison.”

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25195.htm

  82. Tech

    13 Apr, 2010 - 10:13 pm

    To be honest with you, I don’t know. That is one of the main reason I don’t want to be here any more. I want to be somewhere

    Where I might be able to make a difference.

    You are probably already doing everything it is possible for you to do.

    I’m not a superhero, you probably do much more than me anyway.

    I am going to contradict most people’s perceptions of me now by saying I don’t think the cause of any of this is to do with the evil of Zionism.

    Or their strength.

    I am not someone who believes the Jews are an all powerful people, with invisible hands everywhere.

    I believe all this isn’t to do with their evil, but our own failures.

    I don’t believe it is to do with their strengths, but our own weaknesses.

    I think when the Ottoman empire sickened, all of its territory was there for the taking. That was one of the major causes of ww1, bickering between the remaining powers on how to divide up its territory.

    My view is if it wasn’t the Zionists claiming Palestine, it would have been someone else.

    The something goes for Iraq and Afghanistan. If America didn’t it could have been another power, Russia has already had its turn invading Afghanistan, and Britain had a turn before them.

    At the same time I don’t think Israel is the only problem in the Middle East.

    When you have petty little defenceless, disunited countries, they are all their for the taking.

    The middle east in particular and the Muslim world in general need a heavy dose of reunification.

    And this reunification can only come from within.

    They need to want to reunify. This is easy for the poor to choose, because reunification and wealth redistribution would mean they wont be so poor any more. Not quite as easy for the rich though? But it is still to their advantage, because without reunification, maybe their nation would be next on the list for American style democratisation, and the bloodshed that comes with it.

    Without reunification things will only get worse. And things can only start getting better after reunification.

    Take a look at Gaza for example, Israel is starving them in to submission, but so is Egypt.And if the two state solution ever gets passed, no prizes for guessing that Jordan would help Israel do the same to starve the west bank.

    To free Palestine from the Zionists, the whole Middle East needs to be freed from the despots and puppets.

    And this can only come from within those

    peoples themselves.

  83. arsalan

    13 Apr, 2010 - 10:14 pm

    sorry, the last post was by me.

  84. technicolour

    13 Apr, 2010 - 10:51 pm

    Arsalan, thanks. You don’t surprise me, actually. Or I don’t think we’d have been having this discussion for so long and so informatively. Am thinking, and agreeing, but must go to bed. Sleep well.

  85. technicolour

    14 Apr, 2010 - 6:12 pm

    Arsalan, just so you know, I do ridiculously little. I haven’t joined a convoy, for example. Thanks for concluding that this is not really the time to direct hatred at any particular group of people.

    And you are right, most countries are as bad as each other. Plainly these old traditions of hate between cultures or races or classes are ridiculous. I think that’s the common theme on this blog; from Alfred to Clark.

    But until Clark’s One World Government or the Caliphate, or anarchy, or whatever, it seems we must elect better small governments which will not attack each other. We have to be involved in our own country’s politics.

    It’s a horrible thought in many ways, I agree.

  86. dreoilin

    14 Apr, 2010 - 8:05 pm

    “Plainly these old traditions of hate between cultures or races or classes are ridiculous.”

    Tech, I agree with you 100%. But somehow the notion of a One World Government worries me far more.

  87. technicolour

    14 Apr, 2010 - 8:50 pm

    dreoilin; to be fair, any form of government worries me. But yes, a One World Government, with its One World dictator, and its One World armies and its One World rules, ah. Starship Troopers, or Dune?

  88. Suhayl Saadi

    14 Apr, 2010 - 9:02 pm

    How about Tony Blair, for One-World Government Leader…?

    “I believe with every fibre of my being… that that would be…” [close-up of nystagmic shift, the vacant, Pre-Raphaelite babe-in-the-woods glazed affectation of primal innocence]

    A BAD BAD TRIP.

  89. technicolour

    14 Apr, 2010 - 9:08 pm

    Yes, thanks Suhayl. In a desperate attempt to close that image, I’ve been trying to imagine the positive (good old Kant). I suppose a OWG could be nice, if it evolved very, very slowly & peacfully, say over about 3000 years. We don’t seem to be blessed with that pace, though: quite the opposite. OWG! Yeah! Now! Whatever it takes! Bang!

    Whereas snails have probably already got one.

  90. arsalan

    14 Apr, 2010 - 10:41 pm

    Mass deportation feared after West Bank permit ruling

    News Watch

    Monday, 12 April 2010

    0diggs

    diggThe Israeli army is to enact a ruling that could leave tens of thousands of Palestinians vulnerable to deportation from the West Bank, human rights groups have claimed. A coalition of ten Israeli groups appealed to the Defence Ministry not to enact the military order, due to come into effect tomorrow, that would define anyone in the West Bank who does not hold an Israeli permit as an “infiltrator”.

    Those without a permit would be liable to seven years in prison and the cost of their deportation from the West Bank ?” most likely to the Gaza Strip.

    “Most of the people there don’t have any permit at all. It’s a question of how the permit is defined, and it’s not defined at present,” said Elad Cahana, a lawyer acting for HaMoked, one of the rights groups.

    They believe that the main target is tens of thousands of Palestinians whose original addresses are registered in the Gaza Strip, but who have lived for many years in the West Bank in areas administered by the Palestinian Authority. Others include those of Palestinian descent who have either married West Bank residents or have been reunited with families there, as well as international activists such as the International Solidarity Movement, whose members often accompany Palestinians on protests and demonstrations.

    “There’s an estimated 25,000 people in the West Bank whose homes are registered in Gaza, and tens of thousands more who don’t have ID cards at all: people of Palestinian descent who have been applying for them,” said Sari Bashi, of Gisha, another group.

    “Israel has territorial claims in the West Bank, and is implementing … draconian policies to empty the West of Palestinians,” she said. The groups said in a statement that the orders were worded so broadly that they theoretically allowed the military “to empty the West Bank of almost all its Palestinian inhabitants” because most have never been required to hold any permit.

    They also said that “despite the severe ramifications of the orders, the authorities did not publicise their existence among the Palestinian population as required, which raises grave concerns that they intended to pass them secretly without public debate or judicial review.”

    The Palestinian Authority issued a furious denunciation of the plans, which it said threatened to “turn Palestinians into criminals in their own homes”.

    “These military orders belong in an apartheid state,” said Saeb Erakat, a senior official. “Most of all, they reveal the invidious design behind Israel’s settlement policy.

    “The fewer Palestinians there are in the West Bank, including in occupied East Jerusalem, the more settlers there will be. Israel’s endgame is not peace. It is the colonisation of the West Bank.”

    The Israeli army said that the aim was the extradition of those residing illegally in Judea and Samaria [Israel's term for the West Bank]. “This is a pre-existing order, which was corrected to assure judicial oversight of the extradition process,” it said.

    But Rights groups said that the orders failed to define what constituted a valid permit, leaving it open to the interpretation of the army.

    “The vast majority of people now living in the West Bank have never been required to hold any sort of permit to be present therein,” they said.

    The Israeli army has already deported a number of Palestinians from Gaza who rights groups argue were living legally in the West Bank.

    One of them was Berlanty Azzam, a 22-year-old studying business at Bethlehem University who was picked up at an Israeli checkpoint while travelling from a job interview between two Palestinian Authority areas of the West Bank last year.

    She was immediately deported to the Gaza Strip despite military assurances to her lawyer that she would not be removed until an Israeli judge had heard her case.

    When Gisha finally managed to bring the case before the Supreme Court, Ms Azzam’s request to return to Bethlehem was denied and the army had taken away and “lost” her original 2005 permit to cross Israel and enter the West Bank, Ms Bashi said. She is still living in Gaza.

  91. Stephen Jones

    15 Apr, 2010 - 11:22 pm

    Some things aren’t clear. The Cif front page has a limited number of articles; sometimes you can disappear after a few hours; sometimes you stay a long time. Depends on how many other articles there are in the time frame.

  92. sam

    17 Apr, 2010 - 12:41 am

    Of course the UK’s elections are not free or fair.

    But then, they’re not elections either are they?

    My apologies for any offence you might perceive, none intended…but Craig I was quite amazed to read you writing about the UK’s upcoming ‘General Election’ as if it were actually serious and real.

    Isn’t it obvious now that it’s simply a handover to the rising lads on the same team?

    And they’ll be happy to handover in turn when they’ve milked the country as much as they can. Plus ca change.

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