That is excellent news. It illustrates just how domestically aligned (horizontally) to the rolling US war machine the previous bunch of ruling politicians had become. Shame on them! They really did trash the Labour Party and Britain. Now the same cardboard cutouts - Balls, Millibands Mark I and II et al - want to continue in the same vein, using the same, deliberately vacuous language that bespeaks a veil for power.

I suspect that while, particularly with a clever Democrat Administration in Washington (as opposed to the preceding stupid Republican one) they will be allowed some leeway domestically, their room for manoeuvre in terms of foreign policy will remain limited.

Still, credit where it is due. This is good news.

Suhayl

Yep. Maybe Diane Abbott will give them a shock!

I vowed I wouldn't get an ID card and would not go on the national ID register which meant in a few years time I would not have been able to renew my passport. I'm overjoyed that this is no longer necessary. Gary McKinnon is a great development too. But seriously, what on earth were New Labour thinking?

Its a better feeling. Maybe people are wondering when it goes bad. They have been very badly burned.

Cheers, Mr Murray.

Great news about Gary McKinnon. Great news about rolling back (some of) Labour's police-state legislation. Great news about limiting the power of hedge funds.

So much great news in the past couple of days. A cynic might think we're being softened up for a whole bunch of bad news in the not too distant future. Let's hope Osborne's emergency budget will bring yet more great news.

It does seem to be going rather well so far doesn't it? Despite the dreadful legacy they will have to cope with, I do feel that we are, at least, getting our country back.

I will never forgive Blair for his actions. Brown, on the other hand, was just a stain on the pants of history.

oh ye of little faith...

Wasp Box

well put

This is encouraging news, not just for Gary but for all of us. Any progress we can make to remove the cowboy boot that has been stamping down on our necks is a relief. I cannot understand why they have not given Gary a job at GCHQ, surely anyone who can break into the Pentagon would be more use to us there than rotting in an American prison. Bletchley Park showed us that we need unique thinkers like Gary working for us, not against us.

Good news about McKinnon, but the whole hateful and slavish bill needs to be repealed as soon as possible. Said it before, but it still beggars belief how Labour voters keep on voting for the anti-civil liberties, pro-banking, pro-war, New "Labour" bunch who drove the economy of a cliff.

The time is right for a re-run of the fifth season of "The Wire", in which the newly elected Mayor Carcetti inherits a massive budget deficit and consequently has no funds to fulfill his election promises, thanks to the corruption and incompetence of the previous incumbent.

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

You are deluding yourself Craig, and it is quite amusing to observe. I can guarantee, within the year, once the cuts start to bite and Tory dogma takes control, that you will be slagging off this so-called government in the same old way as before. In the meantime it is fun watching you make an arse of yourself. Thanks.

Eddie: What's wrong with being thankful for these definite improvements on specific areas of New "Labour" policy? I don't harbour any illusions, (and don't see any evidence that Craig does either), especially where the Tories are concerned. The coalition is better than they would have been on their own. As for New "Labour", thank God they've finally been chucked out and can't reduce civil liberties any more than they already have done.

Eddie. I think Craig is reacting to events, which is the job of a blogger. Yes of course if "Tory dogma" takes control, he will be blogging against it (apologies, if I preempt him). He is independent minded, I think.

As are you, in many ways. I really hope you Labour guys don't get Miliband, but I don't see any way out of it?

I hope you are right, Craig.

More good news today sees a new inquest granted for Jeremiah Duggan:

http://justiceforjeremiah.yolasite.com/

AlexT@10:19
As I understand it McKinnon does not possess any extraordinary computer skills. He used a simple script that searched for accounts with a default password. Effectively the doors were wide open.

He was a silly sod for going in, but he sure isn't a terrorist.

From the Guardian
"Torture claims investigation ordered by William Hague"

I think I can guess what Craig's Blog post will be about tomorrow.

I'm reminded of the man always seen carrying a paving slab around with him. When asked why he did that, he replied "'cos it makes me feel so much better when I put it down"!

There are indeed some encouraging moves by this coalition. Here's hoping, eh?

Of course Gary McKinnon needs to be made an example of. The alternative is that Microsoft admit that they have been supplying inherently insecure operating systems.

"I found out that the US military use Windows," said Mr McKinnon in that BBC interview. "And having realised this, I assumed it would probably be an easy hack if they hadn't secured it properly."

Microsoft have immense power. Government departments use Windows, a closed system - which means that only Microsoft know precisely how to control Windows. Effectively, Microsoft potentiallly control all data held on Microsoft systems - they can potentially read, erase or modify it. That's a hell of a big gun to be holding to the US government's and military's heads.

The same situation exists here; Microsoft is international. McKinnon may well be tried in Britain - M$ won't mind, so long as he is still made an example of.

Governments should use Linux. It's the only way to be sure...

Outbreak of optimism shocker!

That is very good news about the scrapping of ID cards and also that Gary McKinnon won't be extradited. I think it is rather tender-headed to think he shouldn't be prosecuted at all though. He was, after all, doing the cyber equivalent of breaking and entering which is illegal no matter how poor your security and locks are.

But I think the best news is, as Derek has pointed out, that torture allegations are going to be investigated.

http://tinyurl.com/2ezpqzy

Gary McKinnon should probably be given a token punishment, community service or something. His motivation was basically childish curiosity - and we wouldn't harshly punish a child that worked out how to open the shed because he wanted to see if the lawnmower was in there. There are US claims of damage, but we've no reason to believe that he was malicious, so any damage was again probably due to the fragility of the systems.

it's funny how the US (and others) talk of some huge threat from 'cyberterrorism', and yet the only real example of unauthorised access is this sort of thing.

In fact with all he's been through already, he should probably not be punished further at all.

I'm delighted for him. This is a farce to go along with the kid facing 20 years for hacking Sarah Palin's email.

"His motivation was basically childish curiosity - and we wouldn't harshly punish a child that worked out how to open the shed because he wanted to see if the lawnmower was in there."

That's true and if you came home from work and found me standing in your living room because I wanted to see what was in your house then I would hope not to be harshly punished.

Anyway, I am against a harsh punishment but it is silly to think he is innocent.

I just looked into him a bit more and was surprised to find he was a Truther. Surprised because he seems to be of the impression that the US's highly sophisticated air security system should never have allowed the attacks to happen and yet McKinnon is unwittingly demonstrating a more obvious point: That such systems are nowhere near as effective or foolproof as have been touted. Quite the opposite, that such things as cyber-security as well as air security and US intelligence is bumbling, incompetent and very lax.

I likewise just looked into this a little further.

This sad case is a dimwit. Certainly he shouldn't get too harsh of a sentence (of course, his fantasy of being sent to Guantanamo is just that), but a slap on the wrist is just out of the question. I just love this message he left:

"US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days? It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand-down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels."

I take it that Craig Murray and 90% of the commenters at this site have absolutely no respect for the interests of the governments of the U.S./U.K. in protecting computer systems that serve as a backbone against global threats in the West. I mean, that's just a given. Of course it follows that you don't have a problem signaling to the world that it's open season on computer security in the West.

And maybe some of you think this idiot dimwit really had a point about UFOs.

And maybe some of you think this idiot dimwit really had a point about a stand-down on September 11.

Pretty soon all of you people will have to claim some late-stage Asperger’s syndrome diagnosis.

Far more importantly, it's interesting to note that Craig Murray apparently won't dedicate blog space to foreign residents in the U.K. who have been denied asylum. Who does he go to bat for? This "I am SOLO" asshole.

How much google time will it take for me to find a poor chap who is about to be sent back from the U.K. for certain tortured imprisonment?

I'm working on 2 asylum cases, Craig. Pro bono.

Your guy is this "I am SOLO," 911-denying UFO freak who was arrested in 2002.

You're just exploiting him.

OK, I've read more about this.

This asshole will plead it out, do 12 months of non-violent federal time, and then do 6 months in the U.K. He'll be given three full meals and a place to sleep.

What the fuck is wrong with the British left that they would care about this asshole and not care about asylum seekers?

As it happens Larry, Craig Murray has done more than simply dedicate blog space to those denied asylum in the UK but has actively worked to prevent their deportation:

http://tinyurl.com/25j7x7x

"March 20, 2010
A Life Saved
The good news is that Alisher Khakimjanov was granted asylum by a judge yesterday after being refused by the Home Office and scheduled for deportation to Uzbekistan."

And...

"January 25, 2008
A Life Saved!
I can't really afford it, but I have just bought and opened a bottle of the best bubbly I can find in Shepherds Bush. Jahongir Sidikov has phoned me to say that the Home Office has just granted him asylum. You will recall that Jahongir had to physically resist deportation from Harmondsworth Detention Centre to certain torture and near certain death in Uzbekistan.

Jahongir has no doubt, and nor do I, that the actions of readers of this blog were crucial in preventing this appalling proposed deportation."

And there are many more examples of this. Your criticisms in that regard are way off base.

As for Gary McKinnon, there was talk of him being incarcerated for 70 years which is an absurd sentence for what he did.

As I have already said I don't agree with the idea that he did nothing wrong but I do agree with the idea that there are grounds for diminished responsibility and I would accept Simon Baron-Cohen's (no, not Borat!) diagnosis of autism.

I think the loopy conspiracy theory shit that grows like fungus in the comments boxes is a perfectly acceptable target but please leave Craig Murray's human rights work alone.

-and now for the truth over Dr David Kelly,

Remember him, Mr Blair?

"-and now for the truth over Dr David Kelly,

Remember him, Mr Blair?"

And let's look into reports that Elvis is still alive at the same time, shall we?

Change of government both sides of the pond and an utterly futile and potentially embarrassing trial can be quietly dropped - maybe.

It will be interesting to see if the extraditors find themselves hoist by their own petard.

Personally I was rather looking forward to the Pentagon's security experts being made to look stupid. Any trial of McKinnon has wonderful potential for comedy and ridicule and shame - which his lawyers would probably make full use of.

Extraditors - be careful what you wish for!

Angrysoba, I agree entirely that if Craig has helped people avoid possible torture and death, that's praiseworthy. Very well put.

However, I really do not think it is valid to align the very serious concerns over David Kelly's death with 'Elvis legends'.

I think though that you're right about the lack of competance of security systems, amply proven by this hacker - in general, the more complex they are, the less effective they become. I do not think that the bunch of idiots who brought us 'Iraq: Disaster Part 2: The Day of Reckoning', the dolts who were unable even to rule Iraq for more than a millisecond without the active help of Iran, would be capable of organising a village green tea-party. They had lots of power and hubris but precious little intelligence (and I use the word in both its senses). But that's for another, very long (!), thread. Colin Powell's amateur ham-act at the UN Security Council was a very bad joke and the fact that the leaders of The West bought it is more an indictment of those leaders than anything else.

Also, eddie, look I am saddened by what happened to the Labour Party, I'd like to see it get back its soul. But I don't think the present lot of mannequins have the capability of - of desire to - achieve that end. Diane Abbott is closer to the soul than any of the others but of course she's not going to be elected leader. Hope she does give 'em a kick, though!

Larry. The reason Brits of *all* political persuasions get agitated over the McKinnon affair comes down to 2 issues.

Firstly. The asymmetric nature of the extradition treaty the Blair government negotiated in which any Briton can be automatically extradited to the US simply on asking, while US citizens cannot similarly be extradited to the UK. It smells too much of the poodle to us.

Secondly the treaty was supposedly to be used to expedite the extradition of serious terrorists, yet the first case it was used for was for the extradition of this idiot McKinnon who if tried under the Computer Misuse Act in the UK would be liable to a maximum 6 month sentence. US prosecutors want to try him on seven counts with each count having a maximum 10 year sentence. To us this looks spiteful and vindictive.

As for plea bargaining. From this side of the pond plea bargaining looks like intimidation to persuade an innocent person to plead guilty.

I recall an interesting article on the subject of plea bargaining by Paul Craig Roberts, but no doubt you will dismiss him as a looney because his opinions do not match your mind set.
http://tinyurl.com/ygdx6k

How charming that the anti-troofers Larry and Angry think the fact that GM was able to hack with ease into the Pentagon computers somehow bolsters their case that the collapse of the air defences could have happened by accident. In fact, it just as plausibly demonstrates the opposite - it shows how easily the system could have been compromised from within.

I've ALSO looked into this a little further, much further methinks than Larry and Angry. For a start, the guy is anything but a dimwit, so let's leave off the cheap name-calling shall we?

More penitently there seems to be something not quite Kosher about the narrative of this case that suggests to me that the purported images of aliens were left lying around on the hard disks of unsecured computers in order to be found by some dupe. I don't believe for a second that the images were of genuine UFOs, but the whole history of UFOs dating right back to 1947 is full of what appear to be deliberately seeded disinformation.

"Those commenters on this blog who refuse to accept that this government is an improvement on the hateful New Labour crowd, increasingly sound like nuts"

I'm not crying for New Labour to return, but given that this administration has just announced it wants alleged rapists to be given anonymity, excuse me if I don't share your views that the Con-Dems are an "improvement". Yeah, glad to see the back of ID cards and a few other odds, and this turns the clock back 25 years.

Larry -

I am glad to hear that you are doing pro bono work for asylum seekers, genuinely. Apart from organising blog campaigns on deportation cases, I have also given evidence to asylum tribunals on over a dozen occasions - and I have never lost a case!

Yakoub

The anonymity for alleged rapists question is a complex issue. The important point is that it ends on conviction - alleged rapists found not guilty maintain their anonymity, convicted rapists do not.

Alleged rape victims have anonymity, of course, unlike say alleged victims of other crimes of violence. This leads to a strange situation where someone can with anonymity falsely accuse someone of rape, and that person is stigmatised beyond redemption.

A difficult question, I agree. But the proposal does not seem to me self-evidently wrong.

I should've said of course that Craig most definitely has helped people avoid torture and death. My statement, earlier, ought to have read stronger. There's no 'if' about it!

Angry -

Drugs found in Elvis at time of death in a hospital bed:

Morphine, Demerol, Chloropheniramine, Placidyl, Vailum, Codeine, Ethinamate, Quaaludes, Diazepam, Amytal, Nembutal, Carbrital, Sinutab, Elavil, Avental, and Valmid.

Drugs in Dr David Kelly on a hillside:

Non-lethal dose of Co-Promxamol

And now a Torture Inquiry too?

If the Guardian headline this morning is correct, another helpful development. (obviously how the Inquiry functions will be key, but this is one important step)

Yakoub

I talk with authority not from what I have read in a tabloid or broad sheet The reason that only a small percentage of rape allegations get convictions is because only a small percentage are true. Men and women regulary make false rape allegations for all kinds of reasons mental health,revenge,infatuation then rejection,attention seeking,Concensual sex then regrets when partner finds out,Wanting to get rehoused. In alot of these instances an innocent man has been arrested had penile intimate swabs taken had his nails scraped his clothing siezed. If he works in a notifiable occupation he may be suspended from work. He has to go into open court and face huge embarrassment and attention and when he is found guilty and the "victim" has been proved to have lied or made it up he has to put up with the whispers "no smoke without fire" comments. The police/CPS are under huge pressure to take all rape allegations to court even if they have doubts because of narrow minded people that dont believe that anyone could make such a thing up. God forbid they lower the burden of truth in rape cases as labour wanted as hundreds of innocent people would be locked up every year on the lies of some sick or wicked people. I am not for one minute making light of rape it is a terrible crime that can scar people for life. But it can also scar innocent people falsely accused of rape.

Should read "not guilty" above

That Larry bloke is pretty hostile.

I think one of the fundamental problems with the MacKinnon case is the fact that people against his extradition, regardless of how genuinely tight and reasonable the arguments at their disposal are, still seem to want to resort to that old rhetorical chestnut of trying to diminish the seriousness of the offence in order to heighten the injustice of his treatment, as if they have no faith in the primary arguments.

The lack of competancy in the security of the systems in question do not invalidate the fact that he committed a criminal offence, and he should be tried accordingly for that offence (in his own country), in exactly in the same manner as you would expect of anyone else. Similarly the 9/11 denial, the UFO-hunting, the chest puffing, remorseless grand-standing do nothing but divert attention away from the point that extradition would be a miscarriage of justice.

Do not sentimentalise the man and do not allow him to be sentimentalised; 'Childish Curiosity' is not a defence and you are doing a dis-service to him by patronisingly referring to him as if he were a child, rather than a grown man with Asberger's Syndrome.

No one has helped to highlight just how injust this treaty (and therefore how necessary its removal) is by painting this man up as a fucking modern Che Guevara.

Larry is American "say no more"
I was just watching a documentary on the US aircraft carrier stationed off Iraq during the invasion. The crew were telling the camera that after 9/11 it was important to invade Iraq and kill terrorists. Obviously a bit confusing as Iraq didnt have many terrorists during Sadams time and only got terrorists after we invaded it and fucked up the post invasion.

Yakoub -

"I'm not crying for New Labour to return, but given that this administration has just announced it wants alleged rapists to be given anonymity, excuse me if I don't share your views that the Con-Dems are an "improvement". Yeah, glad to see the back of ID cards and a few other odds, and this turns the clock back 25 years"

How do you square up a rejection of Identification Cards with your belief that an allegation of rape should remove a person's anonymity?

Steve, with respect one cannot really be serious when one says that about 'Americans', just because of one persistently aggressive and irrational blogger.

It also lays one open to the sort of comeback in which such disruptive bloggers enjoy engaging.

I don't know whether or not you're in the UK, but here in the UK we get a very distorted view of American people, a mixture of comic-strip and Hollywood stereotype.

It's not like that in the real world.

This does not have anything to do with an ongoing critique of American state power in the world, an aspect of their country with which I know lots of Americans are totally disgusted.

Suhayl

I am in the UK and Americans do tend to have a very narrow and ignorant perspective on international affairs. I think this is mostly due to the fact they dont need to travel outside the US they have everything at home Skiing deserts beaches mountains lakes etc etc. The example I gave from the documentary backs up my sterotyping. I also believe that the double edged sword of pride in the nation and one nation attitude also makes them very defensive. Pick on any American and you pick on all Americans. The view you get from Hollywood is an exageration cariacature of the american personality but like all cariacatures it has a basis in truth. Larry is a perfect storm of americanism. You could stereotype and say Scottish people drink alot and eat deep fried mars bars. And they do not all of them but alot of them do. To deny stereotypes and differences takes peoples and nations identities away then you are a short step from doing away with nations altogether. People dont complain when they say Italians are good lovers or the Welsh are good singers. So people should accept critical stereotyping aswell. I am sick of people trying to strip nations of their identities. What a boring place this world would be if we were all bland politicaly correct nobodies with no differences.And on a different note the Olympics and football would be pretty boring aswell.

Whilst I will obviously be classed as a nut I must say this case should be dealt with by the British Courts and extradition should not have even been entertained. However the idea that because security on the sites was poor does not mean an offence did not take place. If you accidentally left your keys in your front door and were robbed would you agree with a defense which said you didn't secure your property so it's your fault. Also as to the claim of expert medical advice who remembers Ernest Saunders, the only man ever to recover from Alzheimer's ?

Paul

Steve, Suhayl

The USA can be regarded as 50 countries in federation - which in many ways it is, with many laws State-based rather than Federal, local taxes, speed limits etc.

51 if you count N and S California as two States, 52 if you regard the Navaho Nation as independent...they work on different time from Arizona.

And "Americans" are as different from each other as English, Welsh, Scots, Irish, Geordies, Scousers, Cornish, whoever.

300 million people rose up and with one voice shouted "I am an individual"...

Larry from St Louis,

you've finally made me laugh. *Aggression is a response to threat*, remember? Are you a Windows user, perchance? Feeling a bit threatened, maybe? You wrote "Of course it follows that you don't have a problem signaling to the world that it's open season on computer security in the West" as if we all need to conspire to keep Microsoft's 'Open Secret' of the insecurity of Windows! I assure you that this is common knowledge. Last time I looked, Norton Anti Virus was scanning for over two million *automated, mechanical* threats. Not live, thinking people. Was it the lack of discression of people like me that led to all these viruses being written?

You're really not that bright, are you?

If our governmennts have a glaring, ongoing, easilly corrected insecurity, is it not in the public interest that it be pointed out?

You wrote "I take it that [you] have absolutely no respect for the interests of the governments of the U.S./U.K. in protecting computer systems that serve as a backbone against global threats in the West".

So you're the sort of person who feels more secure if you leave loaded guns lying around just out of sight on all the work surfaces of your home, because you're sure that you could pick one up quicker than any intruder or guest who might turn nasty?

Still, good on you for your pro bono work. For the sake of your clients, I hope you make more sense in court than you do here.

Angrysoba,

if I find you in my living room I will not call for your punishment; make yourself a cup of tea. But if you bring Larry, please make sure he leaves his weapons in the shed and try to keep him away from anything fragile. When I get home I'll show him how to install Linux.

sean,

I do not disagree. In fact I don't think anything I have blogged suggests he should avoid all punishment, or accepts his mental illness plea. Quite happy for all thi to be properly tried and tested here.

Sean,

my opinions about Gary McKinnon were just that - personal opinions, not intended to form any part of a legal argument. He just doesn't seem very threatening to me, and he's had extradition hanging over his head for years.

There's something sick, scary and ironic about the worlds most powerful military nation so eager to get such a person under its total control. The whole US military machine, bristling with nukes, drones and spy satellites, killing and torturing routinely in multiple countries, but quaking in a fearful rage, pointing at a lone, unarmed, apprehended man with mental health problems and saying "Look, see? There's the threat! Give him to us!"

Steve, I know what you're saying and I'm not trying to argue for a kind of 'Cranfield Man' or worse still, a 'Brussels Man'. I'm smply pointing out that, as John D. Monkey suggests, it's all too easy to apply simplistic notions, with no development of those notions (though I accept that you have developed it somwhat in your response), to entire peoples and it doesn't really advance the stream of your otherwise rational argumentation.

However, what it might do is inadvertantly allow some people to come back at one and say, "See - there's someone who is simply anti-American, who despises all Americans becasue they are American, so why should we take someone like that seriously in any aspect of what they might say?". Thereby, it attenuates the power of one's rational argument as applied in situations and thematic vistas which really matter.

In other words, when travelling through the jungle, don't shoot yourself in the foot!

Clark, if Angrysoba found himself in your auspicious abode, it may be that he would be bringing ceremonial tea all the way from Japan.

I'd never realised that Labour never talked of freedom. I suppose I had become immune to the word (and 'liberty') because of its horrid overuse by the US. I visited DC a few years ago and I was genuinely sick of the use of those words without any feeling behind them. My only hope if that when Nick says freedom, he really pulls it off.

Craig - I was referring more to comments rather than your actual post (you're right); but I thought it was worthwhile to stress the point in general.

Clark - I understand, and you're perfectly entitled to your opinions, but even considering your last post - this is the kind of hyperbole about this case that I mean -

"...quaking in a fearful rage, pointing at a lone unarmed, apprehended man with mental health problems and saying "Look, see? There's the threat! Give him to us!"

I don't think that kind of caricaturing helps - he represents an international breach of security and the US reaction has been a textbook example of what you would expect.

Suhayl and King of Welsh Noir:

"However, I really do not think it is valid to align the very serious concerns over David Kelly's death with 'Elvis legends'."

Well, as you know my opinion on this is that Dr Kelly committed suicide which doesn't diminish the fact that there are serious concerns over his death. I think that the Labour government bears responsibility for this even if not in the way that you perhaps think it does.

It certainly was responsible for having him dragged through a media trial which obviously led to him killing himself.

Now, you can say that it is very strange that his medical records were locked away for seventy years or that he didn't seem the type to commit suicide etc... but don't you think that unless his family - his wife or his daughters - come forward to question the manner in which he died then it is probably something that they don't want dragged back into the public realm?

Angrysoba,

if Dr Kelly was murdered, his family may be speaking (or remaining silent) under duress. Their feelings, statements or silence should not be used as an argument; to do so sets a precedent making such duress more likely. Such a case should be dealt with in public view.

"Their feelings, statements or silence should not be used as an argument; to do so sets a precedent making such duress more likely."

No it doesn't unless you are presupposing the existence of duress in which case your argument is question-begging.

What evidence is there that David Kelly was murdered?

Sean,

WINDOWS presents a far greater "international breach of security" than Gary McKinnon. What I'm worried about is that Microsoft's power is (1) maintaining that state of insecurity, (2) far too influential on multiple governments and organisations and (3) likely to influence McKinnon's trial and sentence.

Angrysoba?

You're not making sense. I'm not going to argue about the cause of Dr Kelly's death. I'm not presupposing duress; I'm presupposing the *possibility* of duress. Note my use of the word "may"!

@angrysoba - there is a book's worth of analysis on the death of David Kelly from Norman Baker MP. It does not conclude that he was definitely murdered, but it asks enough questions to make an independent investigation essential. I think Norman Baker is a reasonable person and an excellent researcher, and I am inclined to the view that Kelly was murdered.

I would add that I don't view the varying theories surrounding Kelly's death in the same vein as 9/11 discussion, as some blog-disrupters would contend. I would suggest that the idea he was killed by the state is quite a mainstream view, and should be treated as such by opponents.

"@angrysoba - there is a book's worth of analysis on the death of David Kelly from Norman Baker MP."

I know. I have read it.

"It does not conclude that he was definitely murdered"

Oh yes it does.

"I think Norman Baker is a reasonable person and an excellent researcher, and I am inclined to the view that Kelly was murdered."

I thought he was a reasonable person until I read his book but as I read it I thought it became more and more obvious that Dr Kelly wasn't murdered at all and he based his "theory" on wild speculation.

I had a career in which I had quite a lot of experience dealing with the families of those who died suspiciously, including in Uzbekitsan and in Africa. Sometimes the family campaign tenaciously. Sometimes they just want to mourn, draw a veil and move on and feel that "digging up the past" does no good. They don't want further sorrow or mental disturbance.

All of which is intuitive. Unless you know them well, you can't say what is happening. And it is often wrong - and I suspect it is wrong in this case - to imagine that the family actually know the truth. Or, necessarily, want to.

Angrysoba,

shall I take it that you're unconcerned that national governments and militaries use an insecure operating system, that a 'trade secret' takes priority over multiple national interests, and that a software company can hold immense power over multiple national governments?

Craig,

good point; another reason that the family's opinion should not affect the extent of investigation.

David Kelly I am sure did not kill himself. The facts dont add up to link conspiracy nuts who saw elvis at the local chip shop with the scepticism of a number of highly qualified coroners and pathologists, the paramedics that first attended and a number of police officers is plain stupid. Men mostly dont cut wrists as a method of suicide they sit in cars with hosepipes to exhausts they jump in front of trains. the people most likely to cut wrists are females with no real intent to die but to seak attention and help. The blood loss mentioned by the paramedics was small. I have seen someone bleed out we are talking huge pools of blood imagine 3 to 4 milk bottles full! I dont know who killed him but he didnt kill himself that I am certain of.

Craig,

I'll defer to your experience here but it goes beyond simply whether or not they have said they suspect foul play. Norman Baker also says in his book that Dr Kelly's wife said he had been very depressed or down after the public grilling he received and yet dismisses her as being too sick to know what she was talking about.

Instead he seems to turn to a few acquaintances of his at his local pub who said, "He didn't seem the type to commit suicide."

I thought this seemed quite callous.

But, as far as I know, Lord Hutton did say that the medical records would be available for those doctors who want to see them. His ruling that they be otherwise sealed for 70 years is NOT as had been said before unusual or weird but probably the best thing to do as it is a certainty that pictures of his autopsy, if released, would end up on the Internet so that amateur pathologists who moonlight as amateur structural engineers in their spare time can construct ingenious arguments over the manner in which he may have died.

I submit that this is not something his family would want.

"shall I take it that you're unconcerned that national governments and militaries use an insecure operating system, that a 'trade secret' takes priority over multiple national interests, and that a software company can hold immense power over multiple national governments?"

I don't know what this is in relation to.

Clark, could you please explain what you mean here...

Angrysoba,

you seem to have diverted this thread from Gary McKinnon onto Dr Kelly.

I'm pointing out possible commercial interest in the McKinnon case - commercial influence overriding national security.

I'm saying that the attention on Gary McKinnon is diverting us from the insecurity of these computer systems. The US claim to be concerned about 'cyberterrorism'. To protect themselves from this, they wish to impose harsh punishment upon someone who got caught.

But terrorist attacks show that some adversaries are prepared to sacrifice their very lives; making an example of McKinnon is therefore futile. The problem must be tackled at source, and you can't do that if you insist upon using Windows.

"you seem to have diverted this thread from Gary McKinnon onto Dr Kelly.

I'm pointing out possible commercial interest in the McKinnon case - commercial influence overriding national security."

No, I didn't initiaally raise the subject of Dr Kelly and I haven't addressed "commercial interests" re:Mckinnon either so I remain perplexed.

Angrysoba,

you didn't light the Kelly torch, but you did pick it up and run with it. Like you tend to.

@angrysoba - we must have been reading different books. I thought the conclusions Baker came to were not conclusive, but perhaps I need to pull it out of the bookshelf again and re-read! :-)

I am appreciative as anyone of the need to respect the family's need to grieve. But the public interest case in finding out what happened, given the various doubts, is significantly more powerful.

I see you are conflating theories about the death of Kelly with 9/11 theories, which is why I pre-empted that by saying they are not comparable. It does the official story no credit to suggest holders of certain views are as "mad" as "truthers".

Angrysoba, do you have any thoughts on Robert "Roy" Greig's "suicide"?

"@angrysoba - we must have been reading different books. I thought the conclusions Baker came to were not conclusive, but perhaps I need to pull it out of the bookshelf again and re-read! :-)"

He I am pretty sure concludes it was murder. The book I read states:

p.208: "I had concluded in my mind, after analysing the facts and available information as carefully and objectively as I could, that David Kelly's death could not have been suicide and therefore must have been murder."

But doesn't firmly say who did it. He lists a number of possible culprits and tentatively rules some of those in and some of those out. His scenario involving a group of disgruntled Iraqis is, I think, deliberately disingenuous and his suggestion that Tony Blair, Janice Kelly and Lord Hutton knew the truth but covered it up out of a warped sense of patriotism/national security is bizarre at best.

But, I think we'd better not pursue this much longer or I'll be accused of derailing the thread.

Actually, I agree, Angrysoba, that the hypothesis about disgruntled Iraqis is bizarre and really quite unbelievable - though Baker makes it clear in the book that it is simply one hypothesis and that he is not asserting it the definitive theory.

The whole thing seems murky - in particular the grainy yet exotic figure of Mai Pederson (a real life Mata Hari), who seems to pop up from time-to-time and issue statements that simply tantalise - and tantalising, it seems, may be her forte.

Baker seems to have been misled, I felt, by a number of odd people who seem to pop into the narrative and direct him in various directions. I mean, it's going to be very difficult to be 'Poirot' in such situations.

So obviously, given that everyone is agreed that Kelly did not die of natural causes, either the official version is correct or Kelly was murdered. And if the latter, then someone somewhere is not telling the truth.

I, and many others, including those not given to 'conspiracy theories' really do have serious doubts that it was suicide, not least from the impossibility of killing oneself by the transverse section of one's ulnar artery.

I don't think Blair or anyone in the Government would've ordered his killing - as with the death of Benazir Bhutto, it doesn't usually work like that.

But the killing - if it was that - seems to have been made to look very clumsy. I think - for what it's worth - he was killed by lethal injection and then the 'incision' was made either immediately post-mortem or, more likely, while unconscious just ante-mortem.

Who dunnit? The usual suspects? Dunno.

Furthermore, it really is extremely unusual for such information to be sealed for 30 years (information not aired during the Hutton Inquiry), or 70 years (post-mortem info.). It really is not acceptable in any case, but certainly is such a politically important case. And then Hutton didn't even tell the public that he had done this so that it's come out only now! The whole dynamic leads one to the suspicion - even if unfounded - that it has nothing to do with family sensibilities and everything to do with someone somewhere needing to continue to lie.

Angrysoba,

I take it back; you didn't derail the thread. Murkrosoft pwn'd our governments and no one even wants to think about it, 'cos they're all reading this on Windows.

And McKinnon can't get a fair trial whichever side of the pond he lands on, for the same reason. Such is the market penetration of Windows that no one even realises that a reasonably secure system can be built, so they think that the only defence from hacking is by harsh punishment for hackers.

When Dr Kelly said he'd be found dead in the woods, he wasn't expressing his intention to kill himself, was he?

And wasn't Hutton instrumental in keeping to the official line on the Bloody Sunday massacre for a couple of decades?

Nick Clegg has stood by Janis and I appreciate that - thanks Nick.

"Furthermore, it really is extremely unusual for such information to be sealed for 30 years (information not aired during the Hutton Inquiry), or 70 years (post-mortem info.)"

I'm not sure about that. Given that this was a government enquiry, wouldn't such records automatically fall under the "30-year rule"?

http://www.30yearrulereview.org.uk/background.htm

"Is everything released to the public at 30 years?
Not everything does get released when transferred to The National Archives. The Freedom of Information Act has reduced the number of records that can stay closed, but a very small proportion of material remains closed for a defined period. Examples include murder files, which remain closed until the children of the victim are 100 years old, in order to protect them from exposure to distressing personal information. Other records which remain closed relate to current defence or security, foreign relations etc.."

If you did want to know more it might be worth trying to make an FOIA request. (I'm sure Norman Baker and Rowena Thursby have been doing that already). Otherwise it would be worth talking to those witnesses whose statements have been sealed or those medical personnel who were involved in the autopsy etc...

Also, wasn't Mata Hari a real-life Mata Hari? (except she was probably innocent)

Yes, Mata Hari was real - though as you say whether the woman was a spy is debatable. She's become such a legend that one thinks of her as not being real any more, but of course she was!

Yes, one could try leveraging some of the detail and I'm sure someone will have tried the FOI route; I don't know the rules on that though, presumably they'll have thought of that possibility already. But as Clark says, it's really not good - if there's nothing to hide, then why hide anything? The act of sealing information itself raises suspicions. And yes, Hutton does not exactly have the best reputation in this area.

And anyway, this - according to the state - 'was not a murder'. They can't have it both ways. One senses that the 'case' is most definitely not closed as far as the public is concerned. There should have been an 'Open' verdict.

Yes, I thought someone might raise that. But the rules are not meant to be used exlusively for murder but murders are examples in which the details of the case may be upsetting for the family.

Hutton certainly has cited concerns for the family in his concealing the photographs and other autopsy information. Whether you believe him on that is another issue.

Clark - "Such is the market penetration of Windows that no one even realises that a reasonably secure system can be built, so they think that the only defence from hacking is by harsh punishment for hackers."

shorter - I think the basic problem there is that computer OSes are marketed as commodities.

longer - I used to get junk email from people I know, and I used to warn them that somebody/thing's got into their machine and is using their data; and then I used to get wound up by the (as I learnt) depressingly predictable reaction - "But what can I do ? It's a /virus/ !", like it's just caught a cold, these things happen, no-one can do anything about it, maybe it'll get better. Final conclusion, I'm an impossible nerdy bore for having some idea they ought to f&*(^"! /fix/ the thing. People don't want to think about how the system works, is what I mean, they just want it to do what they want, work on what they bought it for. They were sold a product, they expect it to work. And they have a point; except, it doesn't. Hence the botnet industry etc.

Though, one ought to expect higher standards of big organisations, of course. In particular, "no-one even realises" - can this be right ? I mean, the case in question was a big important US govt. department; is it even possible that they could have hired an entire set of highly trained stunt admins and techies without including anyone who knows better ? I could find them several who know at least more than that, and I'm just a self-taught amateur.

(I switched from W3.1 to linux around the beginning of '95, "and since then I have used no other", to borrow a phrase)

Nameless,

hmmm, what are the chances that they have competent IT people, who tell them to use a secure system, but due to the corporatisation of politics in the US they are told that they *have* to use M$; after all, M$ is a big US success story, isn't it, and we have to show some loyalty, it'd hurt M$ image internationally if the US government and military were seen to chose a different system.

So the IT people get pissed off, and say "it's far more difficult to secure a system when you can't read or modify the source code, and to be secure all users must do XYZ", and they're told "M$ is the best software company in the world; YOU make it secure, that's what you're paid for, so that I don't have to think"!

So McKinnon gets in easilly, and leaves pictures of aliens on their servers. McKinnon gets locked up, the IT people get repremanded or worse, and the people who give them the unfollowable orders continue to look important and get promotions, like after 9/11. And M$ continues to make lotsa cash.

Thank god it was just McKinnon.

But tell me, Angrysoba, man, do you really, in your heart-of-hearts, believe the official tale about David Kelly? Ulnar artery fatal haemorrhage, no fingerprints at all on the knife...

I mean if this was Italy, we'd be saying, oh right, the N'Drangheta-in-collusion-with-the-state have been at it again! Or Russia, no question. It's because it's jolly old toytown Britain where no-one ever gets assassinated except by those nasty (once)-Red Bulgarians and Russians and well, organised crime in general. But the state...?

Are we not naive about this type of thing? I'm not one to jump at the drop of a hat and yell: "Murder, Polis!" but really. There is a limit. The behaviour of the UK state over the death of Kelly was and remains questionable. One can make excuses - I'm not suggesting you're doing this, btw, I realise you being rational and attempting to examine each aspect and that's good - about/ for the state but then there are situations where one just has to throw one hands up and say: I smell a rat.

Suhayl,

Yes, I had my doubts before so I read Norman Baker's book but as I read it I was surprised to see he made a far better case for suicide than I had heard until then.

Of course he tries to dismiss all the evidence for suicide out of hand and all kinds of mystery in to the mix where there doesn't really appear to be any.

The stuff that bugged me was the bit about Robin Cook dying suddenly on a mountain top soon after damaging the government's claims to WMD.

This is all just ludicrous. Within months of the Iraq invasion it became clear that there were no WMDs. The idea that they were going to go round whacking people who pointed this out seems daft to me.

I agree with those who say there is no comparison between 9/11 and David Kelly's death as the idea of state complicity in anyone's death is not a loony tunes position even if that state is jolly old toytown Britain rather than Lubyanka Russia.

My honest belief is that David Kelly was terribly humiliated and publicly shamed and that he therefore committed suicide in a similar manner to his mother (with pills) and with a knife he had had from childhood and in a similar manner to that he had alluded to (in the woods).

This is bad enough, I think, and the desire for so many to say, "It's not enough to go to war on faulty intelligence or a lie we need to short-circuit the argument so that it's unequivocal. Tony Blair killed David Kelly and Dick Cheney flew the planes into the Twin Towers!!!" shows that they themselves seem to want to "sex-up" their case against the US and UK governments which is, in the end, counterproductive.

If none of the information he allegedly found was true why would the Americans go after him so badly?

I don't think he is a nut job at all just an ordinary British citizen that deserves to be protected from the insanity of US 'justice'.

To those that have read and researched Anti gravity UFO's and hidden technologies you will know what he allegedly found should be of great importance to the whole population not just the secretive agencies who work out of the public domain and don't want us normal civilians to know anything we shouldn't.

Chris S,

the US are trying to get McKinnon because he showed them up for corrupt fools. They're making out he's a great danger rather than admit that (1) they use an insecure operating system, Microsoft Windows, for critical applications, and (2) that they didn't even bother to use strong passwords.

I'm fascinated by physics, and questions like Fermi's paradox. I don't discount anti-gravity. But I've been looking for such an experiment as I could actually try for over a decade, and found nothing so far. If you have anything I can actually use, please tell me.

Angrysoba,

the following is condensed from Norman Baker's article in the Daily Mail. Is his account in his book significantly different? If not, why did you not mention it?

**************************

After writing a newspaper article outlining my early concerns, I found myself on a train speeding towards Exeter to see a man who had agreed to meet me only on condition of anonymity and after some rather circuitous arrangements [...] to minimise the chance that his contact with me could be traced. [...] He told me that he had recently retired but had connections to both the police and the security services, a claim which I subsequently verified through careful checks.

Like me, he had many doubts about the true circumstances surrounding Dr Kelly's death and he had begun making his own surreptitious inquiries around Southmoor, the Oxfordshire village which was Dr Kelly's home. Posing as a freelance journalist, he had attempted to contact the key policemen involved in investigating the case. In this he was unsuccessful but within an hour he received an unexpected return call. The person on the other end of the line did not bother with formalities, but instead cut to the quick. How would my contact welcome a full tax inspection of his business, VAT, national insurance, the lot? Life could be made very difficult, he was told. How did he fancy having no money?

[...] there he left matters until, at a wedding, he chanced upon an old friend whom he described to me initially as a very senior civil servant, but later as a "spook" from MI6. He told his friend of his interest in the Kelly affair and also of the threatening phone call he had received. His friend's reply was a serious one: he should be careful, particularly when using his phone or his computer. Moreover, he should let the Kelly matter drop.

But my contact did not do so. Two weeks later he met his friend again, this time in a pub, and pressed him on the matter. His friend took him outside, and [...] told him Dr Kelly's death had been "a wet operation, a wet disposal" [ie assassination]. He also warned him in very strong terms to leave the matter well alone. This time he decided to heed the warning. [...]

A few months later [... my contact...] told me that three weeks after our meeting in Exeter, his house had been broken into and his laptop - containing all his material on Kelly - had been stolen. Other valuable goods, including a camera and an LCD television, had been left untouched.

Hi Clark,

I think that episode does indeed appear in Norman Baker's book.

But what is anyone to make of this episode?

Norman Baker met a guy who said he knows many people in the police and in the secret services. Er...okay!

He says he heard it from someone else that it was a "wetjob"! Er...okay!

He says he was robbed but no one took anything except all the incriminating evidence he had! Er....okay!

Sounds like bullshit to me. Does it not sound like bullshit to you?

I mean, maybe not on Norman Baker's part. Maybe he believed everything this guy was saying.

But really! By this point it was obviously common knowledge that David Kelly was dead and that many people had suspicions about it. Do you think it beyond belief that weirdos and freaks would be contacting Norman Baker to tell them what some bloke in a pub told them about Dr Kelly's death?

Obviously not. Norman Baker himself talks about some of the really obvious nutters who wrote letters to him (He does reproduce parts of their letters in his book).

But anyway. Now Norman Baker is part of a coalition government so I am guessing he is in a far better place now to make his case. Shouldn't we get scribbling to him to tell him to push this investigation along a bit? I might even write to him myself.

Not a paper I usually read but!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1281423/Nick-Clegg-admits-I-power-stop-Gary-McKinnons-extradition.html

Angrysoba,

no, it does not sound like bullshit to me. It sounds like it *may or may not* be true, unverifiable, unless this person is prepared to come forward.

Now. Don't you think it's a scandal that governments use commercial software to store critical information? That a 'trade secret' (Microsoft's source code) is permitted to take priority over national security? And that they choose this system despite its well known security flaws, when there are better, cheaper alternatives?

Paul Johnston,

thanks for that link. My guess is that it's Microsoft who want McKinnon tried in the 'states, as he'll get less sympathetic treatment there.

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