Craig, the image in your first link isn't displaying. Probably a filenmae issue.

MJ

Fixed now.

Mmm. I got back to the UK this week and was hanging my head in shame. What the hell? Why is this still going on: Afghanistan, torture, kidnap, murder?

My brother's voting New Labour. He went on all the peace marches. He cares. In his area the Tories are currently close runners-up with the Lib Dems nowhere. The Tory vote is growing. He can't bear the idea of Cameron.

STW should have had a pre-election demo. Dammit, someone should. We're all paralysed; everyone's repeating themselves, it's Nietzsche's idea of hell.

THanks, Mr Murray, for keeping this up, and keeping the focus. How are your Lib Dems responding?

"We're all paralysed"

Yes. Reports today of huge numbers of postal ballots being stuffed into key marginals. Expect Labour to do better than expected.

I think Nick Clegg (as reported in the Daily Mail) handled the 'retired establishment figures' very well. One more reason to vote Lib Dem!

What is "TUR" in part 1?

Why should people reading this feel shame, other than the relevant participants?

The UK government has chosen to simply no longer be responsive, neither to the electorate nor to the rule of law.

I don't see anything that will make a difference, and as the three main parties have closed ranks on Afghanistan, there is no way to make this election a referendum on the war and make Labour understand that they are being punished specifically for particular decisions.

Instead, we will see on Thursday night that amazing phenomenon of all the parties claiming victory. Tories with their slim majority (but not a majority of the votes cast), Lib Dems with their increased representation, and Labour, well, that such an unpopular government received any votes at all will be greeted as some sort of vindication.

And will the Tories investigate Labour's abuses? No. And will the Tories continue the policy of accepting evidence acquired under torture? Don't bet on it.

The UK govt has simply parted company with the charade of representing the electorate, just as people in Israel are doomed to their fanatics, just as the US voters are.

That's not to say that I do not admire the tenacity you have shown over this and how much of the facts have emerged because of your personal sacrifice. It's just that nothing will make these facts a live issue, they're not even coming out during the heat of an election campaign.

The FoI request has finally dug up the gold! I wonder is there any prospect that the next administration might emulate Obama and release the redacted information (perhaps with an immunity clause, if need be)?

This evidence speaks for itself. So I think it's important to keep a very cool head here. Too many rhetorical phrases like "beyond doubt" can spoil the impact, because people sense they are being dissuaded from exercising their own judgement and reaching their own conclusions. (Ironically, such rhetorical argumentation is usually counter-productive because it tends to evoke doubt and suspicion - I think that may be why the JCHR committee expressed reservations in their report last year, even though they could not discredit your claims.)

Simple statements of the significance of the evidence allow people reach their own conclusions and 'own' them without becoming defensive against indoctrination. That's the best way to retain a sceptical audience. If they then express their doubts, you can highlight the contradictions and pick those off sequentially.

Your persistence is paying off. All credit for hanging in there - one day you will be vindicated. I'll raise a glass; this could be a significant landmark in the resurgence of ethical government.

Maybe Clegg is saving the "we will pull our troops out as soon as possible" announcement until the day before the election. You know, since it would swing the 45 percent who are currently undecided.

Why doesn't he do that?

Your account of torture dished out by 'that' regime is truly horrific. Now, why would anyone want to hype up a threat when they don't need to. Are the Curious Individual Actums, paid by the very same people who supply the methods to deal with these very bad people?

Sorry, just realised that saying 'The Lib Dems are nowhere' in my brother's area is purely based on the turnout at the last election. Does not take account of surge once voters were actually allowed to see Clegg & hear policies. I think we can assume from (real) polls that the three are currently neck & neck, no?

kingfelix, I didn't expect to feel ashamed, just did.

"Every British person should read this telegram and hang their head in the deepest of shame." - Craig

@technicolour

It's not about you

@kingfelix

Er, quite. It's about the impact of our government's decisions on a) the direct victims and b) on our national psyche.

And actually, as far as our national psyche goes, it is 'about me' just as much as it's 'about' anyone.

Any comment on not dismissing the Lib Dem surge? The press are in full pro Cameron throttle, I see.

Clegg mentioned Britain's complicity in torture with disgust in his opening statement of the second debate.

There is no doubt that the Bush/Blair combination represented a nadir in western morality, and that New Labour were deeply implicated. It is simply a lie that Liberals, Conservatives and New Labour are equally uncaring on human rights. And to use that line as an excuse for supporting New Labour is sick.

Craig,

you wrote: "...I view those thinking of voting New Labour as endorsing the most vile practices know to mankind".

please make an exception and forgive those who will vote tactically for Labour. Given the way votes are counted, it's essential to all (especially the lib Dems) to prevent a Tory overall majority. I'm very lucky to live in a constituency where such a vote is unnecessary, but in a Labour / Tory marginal, I'd have to put the actual numbers ahead of the message I'd like to send, and, with disgust, vote for the Labour candidate.

In my opinion, sadly, this type of human rights abuse, government, manipulation and overt corruption will not vanish even if the Lib Dems rolled home with an outright majority. Their policies and position are only degrees away from both Labour and Conservative.

The truth seems to be that since the first world war when, as I understand it, income tax was introduced at 10% or so to fund the war effort, income tax was conveniently retained and our government embarked on finding ways to spend it.

Although I agree with the NHS and the welfare system I agree more that they should be safety nets and not hammocks. I value my personal freedom which has been systematically violated since even before new labour and although not wealthy, I support the free market system rather than the state system we has been growing like a cancer for the last 90 years.

If we care about the issues and are interested in a foreign policy change then have a look at the Libertarian Party. Other than a fairly non electable leader they are the only party proposing a radical government change, but not into the unknown, rather, adapting the system we used to have to modern day use; "UK Government - Lite"

I'm no politician, nor senior civil servant, and my knowledge of politics is limited but I can't see human rights abuses, that you have exposed so comprehensively, being addressed any more effectively by Lib Dems when they propose running the country with only a few tweaks. It always reminds me of an engineers solution to a problem, solve it with more technology which ultimately masks it but doesn't eliminate it.

"we has been growing"????

Sorry, that has been growing

The rallying cry of 'they haven't been given a chance to screw it up for ages' may seem a feeble one, but it works for me. 'Vote Lib Dem (unless your candiate is awful)' works for me, too.

Clark, how do you know it's still a Labour/Tory marginal? That's what I was thinking about my bro's area, but realise he/I have no real idea.

Clark,

Sorry, I don't make an exception for voting tactically. You are still endorsing war criminals - unless your Labour man was one of the very small minority of Labour rebels on these issues. Keep war criminals in to keep the Tories out? Don't bother.

Redders,

fair point. there is a strong proudhonist tendency in the lib dems, you know! I find the so-called liberatrians often to be just right wingers with no concern for civil liberties (a la Guido Fawkes).

New Labour has been the most evil administration I've seen in my lifetime, and I've seen them all way back to the 1960s.

Blair and Mandelson are of course at the heart of this evil. That's now obvious.

The important question for our democracy is how these evil men took total control of the Labour party and used it to inflict their evil upon our country.

How do we that ensure that evil men like these never abuse us again?

Concur with Tim.

After Labor's 13 Years
No Hope for Britain
By AFSHIN RATTANSI

I can think of no better context in which to view the run-up to Election Day here, on May 6, May than Brian de Palma’s film, “Redacted.” That film, ignored by the Oscars but a winner in Venice, tells the story of the gang-raping and killing of a young girl in Iraq. Her mother, father, and 5-year-old sister were also killed.

http://www.counterpunch.org/rattansi05042010.html

Craig,

the Torys (nearly?) all voted for the illegal Iraq war. It was a matter of coincidence that Labour were in power following 9/11 rather than the Tories. There was a significant Labour rebellion over the Iraq vote, whittled down by the whip. The Tories are only any better by default. Where they would have stood on torture has not been tested. They didn't support you much when you were stiched up, did they?

Our votes are only secondarily "endorsement". I want to see the Lib Dems with as much real power as possible, so that they can change the voting system, and our endorsements can align with who we actually give power to when we vote. And that requires trading Tory off against Labour, not "Keep(ing) war criminals in".

Tim

"New Labour" was about trying to make Labour electable. This began with setting aside socialist principles, which led to the so-called public-private partnerships and the internal market in the NHS. It was accompanied by a creeping authoritarianism and the creation of an obsession with targets which the former head of MI5 correctly predicted would create a culture of dishonesty. This authoritarianism has also manifested itself in "control orders". The wish of Blair to gain kudos with the Americans led to the history of the past two governments. What a mess!

Technicolour,

sorry, I only just noticed your question. Well, we just have to take the best guess, based on previous elections and the most relevant opinion polls we can find. That is one of the things that is so frustrating about the current electoral system; you can't tell what effect your vote has until *after* the election! That seems very undemocratic to me...

Redders,

that's not an "engineer's solution"; it's the solution the costing department insist the engineers adopt!

Clark, no, it's just about not being Jesuitical. The means does not justify the ends. You have to vote for what you believe in.

Discuss?

"there is a strong proudhonist tendency in the lib dems, you know"

They've got a problem with proper tea ? Is this the real meaning of 'teabagger' ?

Sorry ...

@Clark - I agree that the Tories may not have been better in practise on war and torture, but I've made this issue a vote loser. Admittedly I'm in an easier area where it's 52% Lab, 32% LD and 10% Con.

But before I checked the past results, I promised myself I would use this formulation: I'm not voting for war criminals, so I'm not voting for Labour. I'm not voting for regressive policies generally, so I'm not voting Tory. If this formulation would let in the Tories, it's Labour's fault, not mine. (Not likely to in my area, but I would recommend this approach to anyone who has opposition to war high on their voting priorities). Labour needs to be hurt by the electoral response to Iraq - if the electorate has one to offer!

And in case any Labour activists are lurking about, no, this is not a joke.

"How do we that ensure that evil men like these never abuse us again?"

I had a young Labour person bang on my door a few days ago, and asked him pretty much exactly that, saying there was no possibility of my voting for them until they got to grips with how it could have been done, and offered a good reassurance that Never Again.

He wasn't even prepared to be asked such a thing, he had no line ready. He looked as though he may have been too young to even remember it; not that's that's an excuse, even the police seemed to be grinning with pride as they escorted the outraged schoolkids' demo along the main road, back 7 years ago.

"The press are in full pro Cameron throttle, I see."
technicolour

Told you. It's 'Britain's Got Talent' and he's Susan Boyle - except Susan Boyle really does have talent.

David Cameron is Jedward.

Oh, damn, 18 years of warmongering, lying Tory rule followed by a lying, torturing, warmongering regime of Atlanticist 'Labour' betrayal, then another x years of warmongering, lying Tory rule.

Arghhhhhh!!!!

As I said somewhere, earlier, on election night, I will need to play 'The House at Pooneil Corners' very loudly, backwards.

Richard -

Yes, one of my favourite jokes too. Got it on a mug somewhere.

Clark, tories may have voted for the war and deserve disdain for doing so, but I don't think they voted to collude in torture. Anyway - no excuse for voting for murderers and torturers.

For precisely the same reasons to the ones to which Craig alludes in this post, the Tories right now seem to be targeting Norman Baker's constituency, Lewes, Sussex with massive amounts of money.

Anyone in Lewes with any kind of a conscience ought to vote for Baker. We need people like him in Parliament so that such matters are raised and so that cover-ups do not proceed smoothly.

Lewes is where Tom Paine wrote some of his most important works. There seems a peculiar poignancy and irony in that.

I, for one, would not like to see people like Baker ejected and a brace of ex-SIS officers elected to Parliament.

A crucial matter:

http://www.normanbaker.org.uk/pr/2010/100305_kelly.htm

And here's a small example of his doggedness and attention to legal detail:

"Norman has encouraged the government to issue further guidance to police forces to ensure that anti-terror laws relating to photography in public places are applied with common sense. Mr Baker's appeal came after a local journalist was last week told to stop filming outside Worthing station. Under anti-terror laws, the police are allowed to stop a member of the public, including journalists, and confiscate articles they believe may be evidence of terrorism."

I think that people like Craig Murray and Norman Baker both deserve the fullest support from all those who deplore torture, warmongering and the willful despoilation of our legal systems and ancient rights, from all those actually - whether they call themselves conservative or radical - who care about this country and its people.

In the last nine years Britain has engaged in two illegal wars, created a soft totalitarian state, expended vast resources on the military, and has been complicit in rendition and torture.

It is good to see a fight being made against any one of these evils. But why not attack the root cause:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25365.htm

And here:

http://911.lege.net/ABS53N62010/

Suhayl: 'David Cameron is Jedward'

I admire Jed Bartlet, so it looks like Cameron is taking a step in the right direction. Now all we need is for Craig to convince him to defect to the Lib Dems...

Abe, is it the hair? Ha!!

Suhayl: he wouldn't be getting into my hair, I haven't got enough of it left! Are you a West Wing fan yourself?

What do you make of Manish Sood, the Labour candidate who's been denouncing Brown:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8659399.stm

Technicolour, sorry, I had to go out.

Our votes are deemed to serve two purposes: (1) to elect our representatives and (2) to "send a message" to the parties. So I suppose the discussion is about which of these functions should take priority. I would argue that the answer depends upon the prevailing mood of the voters of the given time and constituency.

If the constituency result is essentially a foregone conclusion, then send a message with your vote. But in a marginal constituency, in an election poised as this one is, we should not waste the chance to elect a house that gives power to neither of the two big parties, that gives us the chance to change the political landscape for ever.

There are other ways to send a message to your representatives, such as letters, e-mails, or writing to the press. Voting is the only method available of influencing the complexion of the House of Commons.

As for "having to vote for what you believe in", I think that it is no coincidence that the two big parties favour a system such that if you do vote by conviction your vote is marginalised into insignificance. Let's vote to change that system while we have this rare opportunity.

Brian,

the Tories were useless in opposition on this issue. Just imagine the political stink they could have kicked up over the framing of a British ambassador for his opposition to torture. But they chose not to. For me, that makes them complicit too.

And I'm not looking for an "excuse", Brian, or being "Jesuitical", Technicolour; I'm not hoping for a Labour government. I'm arguing for something I find repellent, but necessary.

Does anyone really believe that a Tory government would hold anyone, especially the SIS, to account for complicity in torture?

Interesting link. Sounds like he may be trying to position himself for the post-Brown era in the Labour Party - a publicity hound: woof! woof! It's probably based on Marketing/ PR theory or something - the Situationists were right. I would be a West Wing fan, it looks great - but I just never had the time to watch it regularly and you know with these things, unless you watch them regularly, you lose the plot of who's who. I like Martin Sheen, though, I think he's been consistently against oppression. Great in Apocalypse Now! too.

Sorry, that last one was for Abe re. the link he posted. I wasn't calling Clark a hound!

Tcah. My man who I love says tactical voting is bollocks. No-one should do something repellent 'for the greater good'.

clark, be yourself.=

Suhayl: Norfolk NW looks like a very safe Tory seat, so I wondered about Sood's motives.

I myself never saw the West Wing while it was being screened. It was only after the complete series had become available on DVD that I saw it going at a bargain price and grabbed it (it's even cheaper now). Once I began to see it, it was addictive. I've been though the whole lot twice and am on my thjird time!

Technicolour,

I'll vote with my heart under a voting system that uses that vote as my heart would have wished. Until then, my conscience requires me to use my head.

"Bollocks" - appropriate really - a pair of rather ugly necessities.

Bollocks are sweet small relatively furry things - are you arguing against them?

"Bollocks are sweet small relatively furry things - are you arguing against them?"

Speak for yourself....

All ways, way off the point. Are we going to vote for these sickos or not?

Alfred

Please try to keep up - we're not allowed to discuss that stuff here. The Angrylarry team appears to have other engagements, so in its absence I'll deputise and tell you that you're a moron, a loon, a silly goose, a conspiraloon, a foaming, swivel-eyed ...oh, I can't remember all the script - check it out over on the quarantined thread at
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/the_911_post.html

I completely agree with Suhayl. MPs like Norman Baker are no longer wanted; they'll disturb the new parliament made up of so many intelligence agents posing as MPs. Presumably the reason for letting rip the expenses scandal was to out a number of MPs to make further room.

Vronsky: a brief aside. A few weeks ago you posted an interesting link about Zenden, or Zersten, or something, thinking. I've just formatted my hard drive and forgot to back up my favourites folder, so am trying to repopulate it. Any chance of the link again? Thanks.

Just watched Jenny Something, boss of the Electoral Commission, on Newsnight.

My impression is that she's totally completly useless.

I expect that's why New Labour and their friends employed her.

Same as that useless cow who runs the IPCC.

Things are bad, very, very bad...

I have to agree with you Clark, the Conservatives voted to smash Iraq and would themselves be implicit in torture if in power, this beyond doubt. I cannot condemn a person for voting tactically to keep the Conservatives from gaining power.

Please, please people remember this:

Gove, together with Ed Vaizey MP (a Cameron ally), is a supporter to the Henry Jackson Society – a UK based think tank that shares neocon principles, and whose other supporters also include Michael Ancram MP (a former Conservative frontbencher), David Willetts MP (part of Cameron’s Shadow Cabinet team), David Trimble (who sits on the Conservative benches in the House of Lords), as well as Sir Richard Dearlove — former head of the British Secret Intelligence Service. Other supporters for this Society include the American economist Irwin Stelzer – known to be close to media magnate Rupert Murdoch – a Cameron supporter – and Richard Perle and William Kristol two of the signatories to the Project for the New American Century.

Mr Osborne, who is Shadow Chancellor and a school friend of Cameron’s, once hailed the ‘excellent neo-conservative case’ for action against Iraq and that he was a ’signed-up, card-carrying Bush fan’!

Mr Osborne switched his second home from London to Cheshire in 2003, taking out a £450,000 mortgage on the property and claiming the interest payments.

Multi-millionaire wallpaper heir Mr Osborne is also facing calls to "pay back" tax on the £1.45million sale of the London home.

There is nothing worse than a corrupt war-monger!!

Ruth: yes. Another good'un going is Bob Marshall-Andrews. Referring to the recent Mossad hit in Dubai, he said:

"...this action was not aberrant-it was a measure of the impunity and illegality with which Israel acts. At this very moment, as we speak, 1.5 million Palestinians are illegally trapped, blockaded and destitute in Gaza, and in the west bank their land and their water are stolen daily and defenceless children are shot. When are we going to take this forward on a greater level and condemn more actively than we do the wider actions of an ally that is rapidly becoming a rogue and pariah state?"

I wonder how many of the new lot will have the inclination to say something like that in parliament.

I heard today Paul Flynn was going too.

I wonder how many of the new lot will have the inclination to say something like that in parliament.

Very, very few. Stuffing parliament with intellegence officers will give the semblance of a democracy and this democratically elected parliament will bit by bit strangle the people.

I think it'll be really important for the people of Lewes to watch very, very carefully how their votes are counted. A massive Conservative presence before the election would add credence to a Conservative win and cover up electoral fraud which may be specifically carried out to oust Norman Baker who's honest and speaks his mind, the kind of man no longer wanted in MI5 infiltrated parliament.

Suhayl, Ruth,

Lewes has its own very strong radical tradition. No matter how much the Tories spend, they won't oust Norman Baker. Relax!

Vronsky,

Thanks for the 9/11 update. Certainly, we don't need the official theory shills on our case.

Mark Golding,

I'm glad someone agrees with me! Thanks.

Technicolour,

sweet? Well there's only one way you could know. Who is the unlucky (former) man?

Yes, I know Lewes has its own radical tradition but what I'm saying is that to get rid of Norman Baker fraud could come into play though if he doesn't win I'm sure the townspeople would raise hell.

-> Freedom of speech for deliberately insulting Muhammad(saw) cartoons

-> Redactions for incriminating memos and illegal evil govt acts.

-> Redaction/censorship/prosecution for expressions of anti-Zionism.

Tomorrows vote will change all that.

/Hahahahaah hahah haha/

"Multi-millionaire wallpaper heir Mr Osborne..." Mark Golding

Re. George Osborne and in a fit of historical resonance, it occurred to me that the moral might be: Beware paper-hangers! And those who paper over the cracks made by paper-hangers.

Thanks, Craig, I do hope you're right. I know that under the green wellies, Lewes is really Revolution City...

I once had coffee in the place where Tom Paine lived in Lewes - amazing vibe. I didn't know it was Paine's house and I found myself discussing politics and really getting into gear and I could feel the radicalism leach off the wood paneling, seriously, it was a cosmic thing. Then I noticed a bronze plaque and realised I was at the epicentre of radicalism.

There are a lot of 'White Witches' (Wiccans) around Sussex, too.

Yes, Abe, you're right, perhaps Sood is a Tory plant (?aspidistra). Or maybe - knowing the seat is unwinnable and hoping for a better seat next time around (though it's an odd way to go about it; who in the party now would trust him? If he's disloyal to one...) - he just wants to dissociate himself from Brown and give himself 'a name' - after all, non-one would've heard of him otherwise? I see that even his mum - a longtime Labour worker - seems mystified and is condemning him - and it takes a lot for an Asian mother to condemn her son in public! This could become a piece of Bollywood bathos. Prodigals, and all that. Perhaps Sood ought to throw a good bash, invite the High Tories to High Tea, be recalaimed as an aspidistra. But then, perhaps he would be sued. [sorry]

Off topic but pleased I never went to see 'Avatar' (for the reason that he might make some cents from my ticket).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10097624.stm

I'm having trouble, trouble relaxing Craig knowing MI5 is backing Cameron and this:

"More than 30 allegations of postal vote irregularities have been reported to police forces in England."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8659864.stm

7 million postal votes can make a difference in a 'hung' scenario.

Norman has always taken the time to answer my questions.

New figures released by the election watchdog show the Conservatives accepted £123,464 from Lord Ashcroft, the deputy chairman of the party, who is spearheading the battle for the key marginal seats.

The Tories have raised about £17 million according to the Electoral Commission. A large portion of which is being used to capture marginal seats and 'paper over the cracks' - thanks Suhayl.

Have just watched a very depressing segment on BBC News 24 where three 'pundits' (inc Lance Price ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Price ) predicted a small Con majority with Cameroon as PM on Friday.

This is a good article on Redress on an omission from all of the campaigns.

"UK general election: Shhh... don’t mention the Israeli
occupation"

http://www.redress.cc/global/slittlewood20100505

SYNOPSIS - Stuart Littlewood views the conspicuous absence of any mention of
the Israeli occupation in the British general election campaign, against the
background of the paralysing influence of the Israel lobby on the three main
political parties and the silent complicity of the mainstream media, including the BBC, and the Church in Israeli crimes.

This omission too -

Johann Hari's article on the STWC website -

The shameful, bloody silence at the heart of the election

Johann Hari says we are sending young people to kill and die in order to prop up a President who (like his people) opposes almost all our actions and is threatening to defect to The Enemy. You might think that is worth discussing. Yet when Afghanistan comes up in this election, the sole subject of complaint is that our helicopters don't work as well as they should.....

http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/1839/268/

@MJ

Perhaps 'Zetetic Scholar'? A sceptical but non-dogmatic magazine. About a dozen issues were produced by Marcello Truzzi in the 70s/early 80s, intended as an antidote to the mindless dogmatism of such as James Randi. More could be said of Randi (his admirers are people like Larry from St Louis) but he is notoriusly litigious. I once asked him (by email) if a claim made by Uri Geller that he had won a lawsuit against him was true (it seemed to me unlikely). He replied (denying it) but I also got a reply from his lawyer. Truzzi's analysis of What Really Happened is here, if you're interested:

http://66.221.71.68/psir.htm

ZS is worth reading (though often not an easy read) for its extended psychological and mathematical examination of what constitutes evidence. Many interesting debates spread across the issues - in fact Randi is a contributor!

http://www.tricksterbook.com/truzzi/ZeteticScholars.html

Well said Mary - thanks, yes I also read residents from Nablus in the West Bank and Ramallah have witnessed Israeli bulldozers backed up by the Israeli army crushing and burning places of worship.

The 'Emperor of drones' Obama has authorised Deputy Director for Resources and Acquisition for the Pentagon's Joint Staff, Marine Corps Brig. Gen. Glenn Walters to supply 6,500 of these spatially aware, networked and waypoint programmed flying killers from above, to Afghanistan. The 'drone wars' are escalating with a target of 8,000 by 2011 and destined to attack nuclear installations in Pakistan and Iran.

I sincerely believe Hague has been tasked by the elites to 'change British thinking' towards a strike on Pakistan and Iran and prompted Hague's allegation that Britain was becoming a "foreign land" which to me cemented the popular view that the Tories are the 'nasty party' hell bent on domination in the Middle East.

But Shhhh mention no more before the election!! "We can deal with a 'hung' parliament" are the whispers - by stealth and deception - Conservatives have the right backing - or do they?

Think twice folks before you commit a cross in the 'nasty' box!

"The final codes are significant. it means that this was considered so hot that only a single copy was made in the FCO - very unusual indeed - and given to the Director General Defence and Intelligence."

As usual, Craig, you overegg the pudding in a way blatantly misleading to readers.

In this case you sent this telegram to a named individual, NOT to the FCO.

It was in effect an FCO Teleletter. Did you classify it as SECRET which meant that it could not go as teleletter but had to go as an E-Gram instead?

One way or the other, the codes are NOT significant. They show the FCO Communications Centre doing its job: YOU directed it to William Ehrman only, and that is whom it reached. You also cc'd it to other posts and not to named individuals at those posts, so there it would have had a pretty wide distribution.

And why did you send such a telegram ROUTINE? Not exactly much urgency/importance there?

Not very convincing evidence of ... anything?

Charles

Just one question to the ex Ambassador.

Was Bliar called 'Miranda' when you were fellow undergraduates at St John's College Oxford or was it afterwards when he was a pupil barrister?

Now with added posting:

http://charlescrawford.biz/blog/craig-murray-more-mashed-potatoes

I should have said that I was addressing this ex Ambassador

'HM Ambassador: in Sarajevo (1996-1998); in Belgrade (2001-2003) and most recently in Poland (2003-2007).'

http://www.charlescrawford.biz/blog/labour-s-love-lost

And a snide piece about Craig this morning.

http://www.charlescrawford.biz/blog/craig-murray-more-mashed-potatoes

Jealous because he is twice the man you are CC?

Vronsky: yes,'Zetetic Scholar', that's it. Good job I remembered it began with Z otherwise you wouldn't have known what on earth I was talking about. Many thanks indeed for the links.

"Jealous because he is twice the man you are CC?"

Or because the commonest phrase found on his blog is "comments (0)"?

Bullshit Charles and you know it. It's a telegram not a teleletter, and it's "for" not "personal for".

"Routine", as Charles knows, means in practice it will be seen the next morning. Standard priority for a policy question.

All that won't mean anything to anyone outside the FCO, but anyone in the FCO will know Charles is talking crap.

As usual Charles completely fails to even mention the reality of of people having their fingernails ripped out and being boiled alive. A real paperclip department mind.

Thanks, Mary and Vronsky - I need to feed my head and will check-out the links.

Perhaps His Ex-Excellency Charles Crawford drinks the wrong kind of tea.

Mary, re. the election result, I predicted some weeks ago on this website that the Tories would win with a 25-seat overall majority and that by the end the majority of the media would be purring in unison about David Cameron's leadeship qualities.

What will happen is that the Lib Dems and Tories will take seats from labur in northern Britain. while in the south, the Lib Dems will not take (enough) seats from the Tories to make a difference overall. The Tories will end-up with the biggest number of seats; the Lib dems will increase their share but not enough to make a difference to the arithmetic in Parliament and Labour will retreat to its historical heartlands.

We shall see how my prediction pans out. I will not be watching, it's too dispiriting. I will be playing psychedelic music very loudly. No, actually, I will be studying for an exam and so will consume nothing but comfort food.

I agree entirely about the lack of discourse on ("don't mention") THE WAR and DEATH.

It is all - all - deeply depressing.

Keep on pushing though. Keep on pushing.

That bloody paperclip!

MJ, Mary, Suhayl, Mark Golding,

thanks from me, too. With these dispiriting predictions of a small Tory majorty, I'm repeating my call for tactical voting. I know, I don't like it either. I don't like cleaning up vomit, but the alternative is worse.

Come on Mary, Jon, Ruth, Brian, Technicolour, and Craig. Lets try to HANG THE PARLIAMENT!

Yep, I agree, Clark. Oh, hang it all! Hanging chads, anyone...?

Users of MS Word may find Paperclips link at 12:12 amusing.

I meant Office Assistant at 12:12.

Hopefully, if the Conservative candidate wins by fraud in Lewes the townspeople will know what appropriate action to take.

In 2007 the Independent ran an article on some of the people's reaction to the new parking meters.

'Since new parking restrictions were introduced - some say imposed - in Lewes in September 2004, there has been a remarkable backlash in which a group of vigilantes and vandals have been blowing up the newly installed meters.

So far there have been more than 200 attacks in which 35 of the town's 96 meters have been written off, while repairs have been needed on a further 170 machines at a total cost of £300,000. The covert bombers have used a variety of devices ranging from simple bangers and powerful crow scarers, to a mix of firework explosives that have scrambled the innards of the meters.'

So no doubt banning firewoks and crow scarers will be a priority for the new government.

@Charles - many of us here are interested in the other side of the coin, so long as it's not died-in-the-wool neocon (we have a couple of regulars that might be described as such). But aren't you criticising the arrangement of deckchairs on the Titanic?

You want Craig to admit he is wrong - when he is asserting that the British government under its current masters have been accepting torture material, and he is also asserting that such acceptance creates a market for torture. Are either of these fundamental points incorrect? I find it hard to see that they are, though I might agree that the second one is hard to prove.

What is comes down to, I think, is you appear to be in favour of British responsibility for torture. At least Bruce Anderson tells us straight that he is in favour (women and children included, in his case). I wonder if the shame of such a position was suspended, that you would own up to agreeing with it too?

Jon: I believe Mr. Crawford did publish an apologia for torture on his blog quite a few months back, saying in effect what a jolly good thing it was. Nothing interesting, just the usual set of excuses.

I wouldn't have noticed it, of course, nor would anyone else had Mr. Murray not mentioned it here.

Clark, thanks, I do see & appreciate your point. And I'm out there. I just feel very stupid for not having done more earlier.

Yes the labor followed the policies of supporting war in Iraq as the Torries would do. Lib Democrats are getting the revenge votes or in other way masses are trying to find an alternative to two leading parties. But is it not indicative of the greater change in democracy or voters thinking? May be democracy has failed to deliver as a system? May be for humans controlled democracy looks after more the interest of the nation than the present form of democracy? May be Vladimir Putin is right at least he has delivered to his nation. And May be President Islam Karimov is also right? Tashkent is progressing city and I am sure if Andhijan plan would have succeeded then Tashkent could have become another Kabul?

Re your memo to William Ehrman (Director General (Defence & Intelligence) at the FCO):

Ehrman was the one who wrote:
"Dealing with Islamist extremism, the messages are more complex, the constituencies we would aim at are more difficult to identify, and greater damage could be done to the overall effort _if links back to UK or US sources were revealed_."

Source: http://preview.tinyurl.com/pktev

Now what did he mean by that? That the UK or US are behind the manifestations of the war of terror?

Passing through...

You might want to correct "I have et victims and their families"...

More of the above from the excellent Cryptome:

http://cryptome.org/fco-muslims.htm

Craig, this may be of considerable interest, given your former career and its premature demise at the hands of Nu-Lab:

http://www.ashleymote.co.uk/?p=3036

Such is our 'democracy' that we might be seeing this tomfoolery and these shenanigans post May 7th.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/04/david-cameron-queen-impartiality-hung-parliament

I heard something this morning to the effect that the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Gus O'Donnell and the Queen's Private Secretary have been engaged in role playing exercises. What tripe!

Suhayl: Yes, Sood might just be trying to get publicity for himself, but the question is to what end. I didn't mean that he had become a Tory, or he could just have publicly defected. But this way he's alienating his party, even his mother (gasp), and not declaring himself as an Independent either. So goodness knows what he is up to.

I notice that this column was not graced with any reply or further comment from Crawford.

On his 'blogoir' (pretentious whatnot) he seems to talk mostly to himself. Only his snide stuff on Craig received any input from his 'readers'.

Still a problem with the download links on the first 2 files - maybe filename needs no gaps?

The Lib Dems should have taken an anti-war stand as they did last election, and re-inforced that with an anti-torture stand.

As it is, when bull elephants of the establishment grunted that the Lib Dems were wobbly on and would endanger national security, the gullible British public backed off the Lib Dems.

The British public are right to be worried about our inevitable humiliation in Afghanistan, but instead of tackling these fears head-on, the Lib Dems hovered instead of bovvered the establishment lie that we can " win ".

The Fucking Brits always go for the cpmfortable lie. They like the Milibands sweeping the uncomfortable truths under the carpet. If the weather holds off we might even get a few hours golf over the weekend. We might hang our heads in shame if it turned out to be rain.

Anno,

I agree, and I've just finished writing to my (defeated) Lib Dem candidate saying so.

As I was on my way to the polling station I got into a conversation with a neighbour who didn't "want the Lib Dems getting in", as it would leave the UK defenceless if "some country tried to invade us"! Delusion! But you know, that's what the papers keep telling everyone; what a sad climate of fear.

Ambassador Dude

really, you care about torture?

When a man is murdered in South Africa, you cheer on, because you don't like his skin colour and opinions.

Only fools will believe you have the slightest interest in human rights.

Here is a good article to read, from a smart Jewish woman.
http://praag.co.uk/columns/ilana-mercer/487-war-on-white-south-africa.html

Ugly: What Craig said: "I am not actually in favour of hacking people to death as a form of political action. But I am unrepentant at failing to be moved by the death of an out and out Nazi, who thrived in apartheid times in a system in which he was able to put his ideas of racial dominance into practice over his staff and black neighbours."

Doesn't sound like cheering on to me.

And who are you to preach about human rights when you cite a fan piece for this piece of Nazi filth from a Zionist website? Or do you think human rights only apply to people with big boots and guns who like to kick the shit out of Untermenschen, whether black African or Palestinian?

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