Who Funded Breivik?

by craig on July 29, 2011 1:54 pm in Uncategorized

There is an extremely important article here on Breivik’s funding, by Justin Raimondo.

It also makes plain that not only did Pamela Geller post a string of virulent anti Norwegian-Muslim articles on her website, not only did she travel to Norway to address a hate rally, not only did Brehvik post to her website and quote it as an influence. She actively supported and encouraged those planning to use terrorism.

This is an excerpt from an email she says she received and posted on her blog:

“I am running an email I received from an Atlas reader in Norway. It is devastating in its matter-of-factness.

“Well, yes, the situation is worsening. Stepping up from 29 000 immigrants every year, in 2007 we will be getting a total of 35 000 immigrants from somalia, iran, iraq and afghanistan. The nations capital is already 50% muslim, and they ALL go there after entering Norway. Adding the 1.2 births per woman per year from muslim women, there will be 300 000+ muslims out of the then 480 000 inhabitants of that city.

“Orders from Libya and Iran say that Oslo will be known as Medina at the latest in 2010, although I consider this a PR-stunt nevertheless it is their plan.

“From Israel the hordes clawing at the walls of Jerusalem proclaim cheerfully that next year there will be no more Israel, and I know Israel shrugs this off as do I, and will mount a strike during the summer against all of its enemies in the middle east. This will make the muslims worldwide go into a frenzy, attacking everyone around them.

“We are stockpiling and caching weapons, ammunition and equipment. This is going to happen fast.

As Raimondo says, Geller goes on to say that she is protecting the proto-terrorist’s identity so he won’t be arrested. We do not know how this wannabe terrorist in Norway relates to Breivik or his other “cells”. Geller may know but the police are not asking her.

There can be no doubt at all that, were Geller a Muslim, this amount of evidence and connection would have her in jail by now. Do not hold your breath.

Tweet this post

343 Comments

  1. If he were being funded, would he still need to move back in with his mother, as he did, in order to conserve money?
    .
    Bring in the accountants.

  2. Thanks Craig for bringing this information to light. Geller seems to be a nasty piece of work.

  3. Anti-Muslim law enforcement trainer cited by Norway killer rakes in U.S. taxpayer cash

    http://alexbkane.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/anti-muslim-law-enforcement-trainer-cited-by-norway-killer-rakes-in-u-s-taxpayer-cash/

  4. The quote from someone in Norway (via Geller) sounds disturbingly similar to the bilge and diatribes we’ve had ad nauseam over the past year or more on this blog from the likes of Alfred (‘Can Speccy’), eg. wrt ‘Leicester’. A pathological obsession with fertility rates, the contant rattling-off of completely inaccurate statistics, the use of utterly inappropriate, inciteful language.
    .
    Just to remind people, Oslo is NOT “50% Muslim”, what utter tripe that is. Oslo has a Muslim population amounting to 7.5% of the total Oslo population. That’s seven-and-a half-percent. And Oslo has the highest percentage of any city/town/area in the country.
    .
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway
    .
    Yes indeed, it would be most interesting to know where this mass murdering racist got his funding. Courtenay, you’re a lawyer in the Caribbean, right? Was he funded via shell companies? If so, who provided the shelll companies wiht funding? Could it some or other intelligence service…? They use such offshore-registered shell companies a lot, as does organised crime, the two sometimes being virtually synonymous. What d’you think? Are you familiar with these names?

  5. From the atlasshrugs link above:

    “magnus andersson said…
    .
    “A wonderful letter I agree!
    .
    “Some facts (just naturally) exaggerated though. Not half the population in Oslo is muslims. About 22 percent of the population is immmigrants. Foreign born people mostly immigrated since early 90th (children not counted) and to 90 percent from the countries mentioned in the letter. So some less than 20 percent of Oslo citizen should be muslims. And that’s many! In Malmoe Sweden every 25 percent are muslims, and there’s real tension! (No more pork, probably only halal, in many public schools is only one consequence.)”

  6. An interesting post that seems to contradict Norway’s Chief of Intelligence that Breivik acted alone (BBC Report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14303363)
    *
    Since this is an emotionally charged subject, it would be good if the moderators would restrict hate speech, as exemplified by Suhayl Saadi’s last comment.
    *
    Also, commenters should, I suggest, try to be accurate in what they say and should give references where relevant. Since SS brings up what I have said about Leicester being a majority ethnic city, I shall be glad if I may be allowed to provide a reference that appears to verify my contention:
    *
    http://www.ccsr.ac.uk/research/documents/EthnicPopulationForecastsforLeicester.pdf
    *
    Ethnic population forecasts for Leicester using POPGROUP by James Danielis, September 2007 Cathie Marsh Centre for census and survey research. A dissertation submitted to the University of Manchester for the degree of MSc. in Social Research Methods and Statistics, in the Faculty of Humanities.
    *
    Year 2011, Total population of Leicester 279933, Ethnic population 143,963 (51.43%).
    *
    This fact has no relevance so far as I am aware in the context of discussion of the Breivik atrocity, but is presented simply to correct a misrepresentation on this thread by SS.

  7. An interesting post that seems to contradict Norway’s Chief of Intelligence that Breivik acted alone (BBC).
    *
    Since this is an emotionally charged subject, it would be good if the moderators would restrict hate speech, as exemplified by Suhayl Saadi’s last comment.
    *
    Also, commenters should, I suggest, try to be accurate in what they say and should give references where relevant. Since SS brings up what I have said about Leicester being a majority ethnic city, I shall be glad if I may be allowed to provide a reference that appears to verify my contention:
    *
    http://www.ccsr.ac.uk/research/documents/EthnicPopulationForecastsforLeicester.pdf
    *
    Ethnic population forecasts for Leicester using POPGROUP by James Danielis, September 2007 Cathie Marsh Centre for census and survey research. A dissertation submitted to the University of Manchester for the degree of MSc. in Social Research Methods and Statistics, in the Faculty of Humanities.
    *
    Year 2011, Total population of Leicester 279933, Ethnic population 143,963 (51.43%).
    *
    This fact has no relevance so far as I am aware in the context of discussion of the Breivik atrocity, but is presented simply to correct a misrepresentation on this thread by SS.

  8. Thanks, Levantine, for providing a quote from that same blog which illustrates yet more of the dangerous idiocy of these epople. Okay, as for that, there are 300,000 people in Malmo. See here for stats.
    .
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Malmo
    .
    As you can see, the percentage in the quote above is also a hugely inaccurate exaggeration. When one googles, ‘Malmo, Muslims’, mostly one gets mostly utterly hysterical rants.
    .

    Excuse me, but a Far Right racist has just murdered almost 100 people, many of whom were children. Should any criticism not be being directed right now primarily and squarely at the Far Right? Instead, some people seem to be supporting his garbage inaccuracies and actually almost gleeful that this massacre has happened. I think that attitude says it all.

  9. “Genocide in Leicester” was a phrase used by Alfred (can Speccy) on this blog in the recent past. Hate speech…?

  10. Good link Joan – Walid Shoebat or is it Shu’aybat has made a fortune on books and DVD’s to boot here:
    .
    http://www.shoebat.com/index2.php
    .
    I seem to recall from my information a deal go down with Alan Lake during Rabbi Nachum Shifren‘s address to the EDL in London last year.
    .
    Alan Lake, a purported millionaire is keen to keep his dealings offshore, for now that is.

  11. Stephen Morgan

    29 Jul, 2011 - 5:31 pm

    Apparently he was renting a farm formerly used for drug manufacture, if he inherited it and used it for the same purpose it could have provided some funds.

    There have always been “acceptable” terrorists, who get ignored or supported. Certainly if this was a Muslim attack then a gang of supporters and funders and other supporters would be rounded up straight away, maybe released later. We’ve seen it happen all too often. There was a suicide bomber in Oklahoma after 9/11, more people don’t know about it because he wasn’t a Muslim, but a right winger.

  12. Furthermore, ought Geller not be prosecuted for complicity? She had been informed that someone in Norway was ‘stockpiling weapons and equipment’ and that ‘something was going to happen fast’ and she chose to maintain the anonymity of the poster. Even in the most sensitive areas, eg. medical practice, there is a civic duty to break confidentiality where there is imminent public danger. If someone came into me and told me (or e-mailed me, or wrote to me, etc.) that they were ‘stockpiling weapons and equipment’ and that ‘something was going to happen fast’, even if the situation were one of medical confidentiality, I most certainly would telephone the police at once. And I would be able to stand up in court and justify doing so.
    .
    Now, Geller was in no such clinical relationship, yet it would appear possible, allegedly, that she chose not to take action in relation to the message, nor even to ignore the message, but rather, apparently, allegedly, to express her support of it and apparently, allegedly, to collude in covering-up its source. Is that not a potentially criminal act? Should Interpol not be considering issuing a warrant for her arrest? Should she not be arrested by the FBI as allegedly abetting international terrorism?

  13. ““Genocide in Leicester” was a phrase used by Alfred (can Speccy) on this blog in the recent past. Hate speech…?”
    *
    To call the process whereby the indigenous English of a major city are made a minority in a their own home genocide, as genocide was defined by Raphael Lemkin, the man who coined the term, is not hate speech, merely a statement of fact.
    *
    To call those who oppose genocide and those who speak about it as “racists” is a brilliant inversion of reality.
    *
    As with my previous comment, this statement has no direct relevance to the discussion of the Breivik atrocity, but is made to correct a gratuitous and irrelevant misrepresentation about me on this thread by SS.

  14. YugoStiglitz

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:02 pm

    No, Suhayl, we don’t jail people for receiving e-mails and not reporting to the FBI every single potential indication of someone out in cyberspace doing something wrong. Perhaps the fantasy world that you want to live in has such a law, but this is not how the Western world operates.

    Your analogy to medical practice is a fail. There’s a reason we compel doctors, and generally only doctors, to provide disclosure under certain circumstances. And even that is heavily contextual.

  15. Richard Gadsden

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:03 pm

    Has she edited the letter?

    The line “We are stockpiling and caching weapons, ammunition and equipment. This is going to happen fast.” does not appear on that page.

  16. YugoStiglitz

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:04 pm

    “There can be no doubt at all that, were Geller a Muslim, this amount of evidence and connection would have her in jail by now. Do not hold your breath.”

    Name me one Muslim who is in jail for merely receiving an e-mail message.

  17. Couldn’t agree more Suhayl, she ought to be prosecuted for complicity. Who is she? I wouldn’t want to pick her up on the bottom of my shoe.

  18. Roderick Russell

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:17 pm

    I’m a strong believer in freedom of speech – even where one doesn’t like the message. But freedom of speech does not give one the right to promote criminal acts. Brievic seems to have been planning (fantasizing) these horrible murders for some time, and I do think that the Norwegian authorities need to look careful at all Breivik’s connections to see if any were encouraging illegal and criminal acts. Like Suhayl Saadi I would hope that if there is anyone who encouraged Brievic, or withheld knowledge of the impending tragedy, that they would be prosecuted. Of course we should prosecute those who promote violence, or fail to report on planned crimes.

  19. Breivik’s manifesto apart from ‘cut& paste’ internet garbage appears to be the ideal hand-book for a terrorist. It contains detailed and viable step by step instructions to make the explosive, picric acid from crushed aspirin albeit in extremely small text that needs zooming to 300%. Not the sort of information a mischievous or vexatious teenager should read. I have not seen such detail in any jihad or terrorist manuals online.

  20. Richard Gadsden: “Has she edited the letter?”
    .
    Yes, she did! I saved her webpage on my HD… minutes before she has taken the “weapons” sentence out!

  21. YugoStiglitz

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:25 pm

    So you folks seem to want to throw people (that is, your political enemies) in jail when they receive any e-mail by someone claiming to be stockpiling weapons.

    Wow.

  22. Richard Gadsden

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:27 pm

    The answer to my question is “yes”, she has edited the letter. Now.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20071230055957/http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/06/email-from-norw.html has the original as it stood in 2007.

    The new version, with that line removed, is on her website now.

  23. @ Craig and Suhayl,
    I don’t want to go down a “conspiracy theory” route but there are some troubling and questionable aspects to this terror attack in Norway. Just some:-
    1. Surely incitement to commit a crime ( especially one of this magnitude) is an offence. At the very least those who supported or encouraged Breivik in killing, should all be persons of interest to the police.
    2. I watched his video and I note this. It is technically well produced, so I ask myself did he simply focus a camera on himself, produce the video himself and make all those technically smooth insertions into the video? I don’t think so, for either he is an expert in producing videos or he got technical help.
    3. I am not an expert in explosives, but applied common sense suggests a few things. The magnitude of the Oslo explosion suggests a huge amount of explosives. The type of explosive and/or the quantity used would suggest that one man simply did not set out, purchase, plant and explode to do this much damage. I see a deadly attack but don’t believe that it was simply the doing of one man.
    4. There is coordination with the second terror attack against the youngsters; his quick movement from Oslo to the second location also suggests technical planning and assistance.
    Adding this much of it together – there are questions to be asked which do need answers.
    Suhayl,
    The truth about offshore company formations is that these structures are permitted to exist because the powers that be want this facility in place. In a certain sense, “ offshore” is a misnomer. Each bank of substance offshore has an onshore parent or principal within the banking community to facilitate transactions. There are points of clearance for wire transfers and the entire banking world is an interlink whole.

    Some users of offshore facilities are motivated by tax-saving considerations and many people set out to hold on to as much of their money as they can. Another level is the transnational corporations. A service entity that actually functions in London, doing oil business in Saudi Arabia, being pay via a company that is offshore and a part of the money is declared for tax purposes in London. There will be political accounts, such as for the access by political parties or entities that need privacy for the source and application of the money. Another layer is the military and intelligence community. That is the reality of the world within which we live.
    To answer your specific question – was he funded via an offshore shell company. I cannot specifically say. Of course, it is perfectly within the realms of probability that the organization or interests that supported him would want a buffer between itself/themselves and the target terrorist. Offshore is, in that sense, one way to go.
    Let us hope that some hate-mongers do not go out and try some copy-cat attacks in Europe or anywhere else in the world. The total picture on this man, I do not have, but seen through my eyes so far, leads me strongly to believe that this was not a one man operation.

  24. I knew the Tea Party were nuts, but conspiring to hide the identity of terrorists? If it wasn’t for the crazy assumption that white people involved in terrorism must all be “lone nuts” they would be in so much trouble

  25. Richard G, yes that was my first thought. Thanks for the archive.org link – very instructive. It is one thing to have ignored it, but quite another to hide that she did so.
    .
    I agree she looks complicit, but in a non-professional capacity, I don’t know how much responsibility one ought to have to report such concerns. Doctors yes, as explained by Suhayl – public servants generally, I should think. But Geller is not in a position of such responsibility (and good thing too!).
    .
    But perhaps the wider problem is the use of gun imagery and rhetoric in American political discourse (and it is not solely a hard-right phenomenon). I suspect she has gotten inured to it to such a degree that the mental alarm bells had simply been disabled.

  26. YugoStiglitz

    29 Jul, 2011 - 7:13 pm

    Duncan McFarlane: “I knew the Tea Party were nuts, but conspiring to hide the identity of terrorists?”

    Yes, the Tea Party people are mostly quite nutty. Tea Party folks believe some nutty things. Do you know who started the Tea Party?

    However, we’re just talking one person here. I don’t see what this one person has to do with the Tea Party.

  27. “I don’t want to go down a “conspiracy theory” route”
    *
    Why not?
    *
    We’re supposed to consider the evidence that points to conspiracy, the money trail, for example, but then not consider conspiracy?
    *
    When totalitarianism returns to Europe it will surely come as liberalism. Then everyone will have to wear blinkers, maybe in the form of a brain implant that prevents anyone thinking bad thoughts.

  28. Scouse Billy

    29 Jul, 2011 - 8:12 pm

  29. technicolour

    29 Jul, 2011 - 8:31 pm

    Well saved, Levantine.

    As for Alfred/CanSpeccy: yes, he lied about ‘genocide in Leicester’ (Muslim population around 3 percent); he can quote whoever he likes on the definition of genocide: we all know that it is, as the OED says, ‘extermination’ and that no-one in Leicester or anywhere in Europe is exterminating (def: ‘destroy utterly’) anyone. I would like to condemn him to a lifetime re-reading his blog posts, myself.

    Hurrah for the majority, to whom these aberrants are mere aberrations. Down with the killers, and their supporters, and any idiots, of whichever persuasion (Jon is sadly right) who think violence is cool, and killing sounds clever. Of course they have been driven insane by the wars around them, and for that the responsibility must lie with our ‘leaders’. But, yugostigglits (larry was easier to spell) Gellar had a responsibility as a human being to at least try and argue against this murderer’s ideas, or to condemn them: seems she did neither, rather, encouraged them.

  30. technicolour

    29 Jul, 2011 - 8:36 pm

    Suhayl: “If someone came into me and told me (or e-mailed me, or wrote to me, etc.) that they were ‘stockpiling weapons and equipment’ and that ‘something was going to happen fast’, even if the situation were one of medical confidentiality, I most certainly would telephone the police at once.”

    Yep, me too. Larry apparently not??

  31. Techy:

    You provide a wonderful example of how the politically correct try to screw there opponents by changing the meaning of words. If the OED does not cite Raphael Lemkin as the author of the word “genocide”, then that is so much the worse for foolish people who rely on such an untrustworthy source. And the rest of what you say is equally ill-informed if you are not simply lying.
    *
    I gave the reference to the ethnic composition of the City of Leicester above. There’s no basis for a debate about it — of if there is you haven’t given it. The fact is, that most of the people of Leicester are not indigenously British. Likewise, most of the children now born in a number of London boroughs are born to foreign-born mothers.
    *
    When you and Suhayl call me a liar and a racist and so on, all you are doing is fighting for your own selfish race interest, and doing it in the dirtiest way possible. At least when I speak for the perpetuation of the 9000-year-old British race, I try to do it in a civilized way, justifying my points with logic and documented facts. But that is not a standard that seems to be maintained here.

  32. Just to join the almost consensus, I would report them too.

  33. Friday, 20 April, 2001, 17:31 GMT 18:31 UK
    Are the British a race?
    .
    Is there such a race as the British? With 2,000 years of immigration behind us, we are a well and truly mixed bunch, writes Jonathan Duffy.
    .
    If the challenge had been to expunge racism from the general election hustings, then it has not been a good start.
    .
    Even before official campaigning has begun, the thorny subject of race is all over the front pages.
    .
    /….http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1288231.stm

  34. technicolour

    29 Jul, 2011 - 9:12 pm

    blah blah “most of the people of Leicester are not indigenously British. Likewise, most of the children now born in a number of London boroughs are born to foreign-born mothers”.

    Which would make them – oh yes – indigenously British. Kaboom. Hoist with your own petard. Again. It’s a bad road, Alfred, and it ends in a cell of your own misery. Give it up.

  35. technicolour

    29 Jul, 2011 - 9:30 pm

    NB And if anyone is setting out along the road towards extermination, it is, of course, the far right. I would point towards France’s expulsion and harassment of gypsies; Italy, ditto; and now Dale Farm; the UK’s largest (Irish) traveller settlement which nevertheless resembles a very small, peaceful Irish village and which Basildon council are shortly proposing to spend £10 million plus of taxpayers’ money on violently bulldozing, despite the fact that the people there have offered to move peacefully and land has been offered to them by the HCA (at a total cost of around £1 million and a half).

  36. Hey Techie,
    *
    “And if anyone is setting out along the road towards extermination”
    *
    Good smear that.
    *
    Got any other crap to get off your chest.
    *
    But your arguments are so grotesque and ill-informed, I have to wonder whether you are just a figment of someone’s imagination. You know, one of those fake id’s driven by someone with a multi-id software package.

  37. “Is there such a race as the British? With 2,000 years of immigration behind us, we are a well and truly mixed bunch, writes Jonathan Duffy.”
    *
    Oh, well, if the BBC says there’s no British race, then there’s no British race, obviously. And no racists and no far-right wing extremists opposed to the immigration of other races, since there are no other races, since we’re all one human race without a trace of difference among us.
    *
    Mary, Are you trying to be funny?
    *
    If not, try reading Bryan Sykes Oxford Profess of human genetics (Blood of the Isles, etc.). There you’ll find that the British remain largely a Celtic race only marginally influenced by the Roman, Saxon and Norman invasions. The largest immigration to Britain before modern times being that of the Vikings who account now for about 20% of the genes in some areas, including the northeast of England and some coastal areas of Scotland and Ireland.

  38. technicolour

    29 Jul, 2011 - 9:57 pm

    Gosh, so you’d class yourself as ‘far right’ would you, Alfred? What a surprise.

    Not a smear, Irish traveller men in the UK already have an average life expectancy of 47 (beating, however, the Afghans, who are now at 43). Grandmothers and children, who form the majority of people at Dale Farm, are set to join the 4000 or so UK travellers who literally now have nowhere to go, thanks to legislation by Michael Howard and the councils which enforce it. What joy it gives to people to persecute a vulnerable minority further, I don’t know. Perhaps you could explain.

    I have no high hopes, just as I don’t expect you’ll address my previous comment:

    “blah blah “most of the people of Leicester are not indigenously British. Likewise, most of the children now born in a number of London boroughs are born to foreign-born mothers”.

    Which would make them – oh yes – indigenously British. Kaboom. Hoist with your own petard. Again. It’s a bad road, Alfred, and it ends in a cell of your own misery. Give it up.”

    So I am away to put the chickens to bed, much more productive. Your punctuation, syntax and vocabulary, by the way, are getting rather erratic. Are you sure you’re an academic?

  39. Ha! more squid ink when needed from Techie the robot.
    *
    Nah, there never were and indigenous Brits in Leicester, not even my grandfather, in fact there’s no British race and never has been, just like there never were any Amerindians in North America.
    *
    But I’m outta here before, Richard in his sheet, Jon the Mod, and the rest of the gang of muggers show up.

  40. “Ethnic population forecasts for Leicester using POPGROUP by James Danielis, September 2007 Cathie Marsh Centre for census and survey research. A dissertation submitted to the University of Manchester for the degree of MSc. in Social Research Methods and Statistics, in the Faculty of Humanities.
    *
    Year 2011, Total population of Leicester 279933, Ethnic population 143,963 (51.43%).
    *”
    .
    .
    .
    why would anyone worry about ethnicity, or color or anything else when we all understand that people are people, some good some bad , i dont know of any one single ethnicity that is any better than another .
    .
    why does population matter if 90% of the country is uninhabited, when 5% own 70% of it?
    .
    the problem is inequality of wealth not the color of skin , faith or ethnicity.
    .
    the wealthy are laughing at the likes of the edl, and breivik , whilst the have nots kill one another whilst the wealthy are cheerleaders from behind the frontline.

  41. “If not, try reading Bryan Sykes Oxford Profess of human genetics (Blood of the Isles, etc.). There you’ll find that the British remain largely a Celtic race only marginally influenced by the Roman, Saxon and Norman invasions. The largest immigration to Britain before modern times being that of the Vikings who account now for about 20% of the genes in some areas, including the northeast of England and some coastal areas of Scotland and Ireland.”
    .
    .
    no such thing as race as ive pointed out before, the genetics and science re-affirm this fact.
    .
    you are mistaking parentage with race, just as your family can be differentiated from your neighbours , in the same way genetic markers (mutations) can separate people of a different region, environment. however these markers do not mean the people are related just that they have lived in an environment that is comparable since that environment can exist across the planet.

  42. Realism it is Scouse Billy ~ JFK – HE CHOSE PEACE. THEY MARKED HIM FOR DEATH.
    .
    Obama knows the bastards are still breathing, waiting in the wings. They want their ‘head of the snake’ in the fall, in the same way as they wanted Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Will Obama have the guts like John F Kennedy to say ‘No’ to the ‘unspeakable? Will another massacre of children occur? Read Sen. Lieberman’s media contact, Jennifer Rubin today in WaPo and know the answer.

  43. Wendy, spot on, on all counts. Yes, precisely. Excellent twin posts.
    .
    Technicolour – SLAM! BAM! WHAM! Pop Art – go for it!
    .
    Dr ab slinks away, again, sniffling. Now when will cd appear, one wonders, to instruct me on proper, Edwardian decorum: “My dear, on no account must you permit even the slightest sliver of skin to show ‘twixt cuff and wrist. Please be nice to the tree man – don’t chase him off!”
    .

    Ian Smith’s infamous ‘Rhodesia’ speech: “Let me say it again. I don’t believe in black majority rule ever in Rhodesia, not in a thousand years.”
    .

    Deep in the night of the Chinook arch, imagined echolalic incantation:
    .

    “We’ve been here – I mean, there, over there – for nine thousand years. Yes, for nine thousand years did we reside ‘pon that hallowed soil across the ocean whence I did come. Now, I dream of sleeping with the sleeping knights of the hollow instead of inhabiting this fathomless New World. And yet, and yet, there are consolations. Gazing though an electron microscope at mitochondria – see, there, Cyril, the British Mitochondrion! Be speedy! Be nimble! Catch it before it runs away and sleeps with a woman from an inner borough of London! Cup it in your feral palm and hold it close to your bosom. The British Mitochondrion. O, woe is me!
    .
    And yet, and yet, there are consolations…
    .
    I’m a lumberjack and and I’m okay,
    Playing Elgar, watching ethnic girls all day!”

  44. “No, Suhayl, we don’t jail people for receiving e-mails and not reporting to the FBI every single potential indication of someone out in cyberspace doing something wrong. Perhaps the fantasy world that you want to live in has such a law, but this is not how the Western world operates.” Yugostiglitz
    .
    Uhm… yes, you do, Larry. Often on the slightest pretext. Drive past a power station, looking rather brown, end up in a black site; have the same name as a baddy, end up in Guantanamo; get on a ‘plane, slip a hood over your head and play with electricity and dogs, systemic, deliberate, top-level-condoned abuse and torture at Abu Ghraib (had you forgotten?); Belmarsh, write a silly poem and go to jail. Hmn. Really, how can you make such a claim? Have you been asleep (?with Alfred and the sleeping knights of the hollow) for the past decade? Why so protective of the Far Right in the USA? I thought you were a rational, pragmatic imperialist a la Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon, rather than a lunatic one a la Pat Robertson.
    .
    Oh, if I’m a “fail”, are you a “pass”? Hmn. Now there’s a thought.

  45. If they have a competition for moving the goalposts at the 2012 Olympics Technicolour would win it by a mile.

    In the space of one paragraph the residents of Dale Farm are transformed from ‘Irish travellers’ one minute to ‘UK travellers’ the next. In his mutterings on the ethnic composition of Leicester the second generation South Asians of Belgrave Road, and the second generation Afro-Caribbeans of Highfields, are magically transmogrified into indigenous Britons.

    Humpty-Dumpty is a rank amateur when compared to this charlatan.

  46. YugoStiglitz

    30 Jul, 2011 - 6:47 am

    Still wanting to hear of an example of a Muslim who was jailed for receiving an e-mail message.

  47. @Canspeccy.
    .
    What does the term ‘indigenous’ mean How do YOU define it? I ask because surely many so-called indigenous Brits are not actually indigenous at all, even more so when you consider people of ‘mixed’ race origin.
    .
    Is it not the case that what you really mean, is white people who engage in activities associated with the British stereotype? Perhaps you would extend that to some non-white skinned people who engage in those same stereotypical activities?
    .
    Really, what demarcates an indigenous Brit and a non-indigenous Brit? It seems like you could well be entrenched inside something that is build upon ‘hazy’ ideas, and therefore not really worthy perhaps of such a solidified stance.
    .
    And what if the white people of the UK decide not to move to Leicester… so what?
    .
    I’m sorry but I can’t help but get the feeling you are like that woman in Little Britain who quite happily eats the cakes and only when she realises it’s made by a non-white, suddenly things there is something wring with it and vomits it out.

  48. YugoStiglitz

    30 Jul, 2011 - 7:34 am

    This “indigenous” “British” debate is hilarious. Thankfully we don’t entertain such debates in the U.S., save those rare Tea Party events (so I’m told).

    You people are immensely fucked up.

  49. My ancestry is Scottish/Italian/English/Irish/Dutch. That is why I am so extremely good-looking.

  50. Have you heard of ‘the lyrical terrorist’, Yugostiglitz? Do you deny the existence of CIA black sites in, eg. Poland? Do you deny that torture and abuse occurred at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and that many innocent people were swept up and tossed arbitrarily into jail?
    .

    I was not suggesting that this obnoxious woman, Geller, be “thrown into jail”. I was suggesting that she be investigated by the law enforcement authorities in the USA and that if enough evidence is amassed to make a prosecution viable, then prosecution most definitely should be considered. If high-profile public figures are seen NOT to be held to account, arguably it gives the green light for further atrocities.
    .
    The “indigenous” claims are indeed hilarious. But, as you well know, such supremacist ideation is not restricted to Europe. It just manifests differently in North America, since most people there cannot claim to have had their mitochondria on the soil of the ‘homeland’ for nine thousand years. The racist Far Right in the USA has a very long history in systemic Confederate ‘Jim Crow’, in de facto economic segregation (look at Washington DC; if you stroll through the city, you wouldn’t know it was black-majority, because all the African-Americans live in the slums of Anacostia, etc. – not exactly a showcase for the American Dream, is it?), the Evangelical Right and in right-wing militias. Ever read James Baldwin or Alice Walker? And so, the arguments that have occurred in the USA have had a different frame, but were in essence derived from the same old, same old white supremacist source.
    .
    Anyway, since when were you a supporter and/or apologist for the racist Far Right in the USA? They’re not your friends, you know.
    .
    I thought you were a ‘Blue Dog’?
    .
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dog_Coalition
    .
    Woof-woof. Down, boy, down! Heel!

  51. As Bunyan might’ve said, had he been blogging on this site, Craig, may the beauty of thy visage be reflected in the oceans of the Empyrean! Indeed, thou art ‘everyman’.

  52. ‘This “indigenous” “British” debate is hilarious. Thankfully we don’t entertain such debates in the U.S.’

    We know that Yugo. Given the success of your government’s policy in the nineteenth century, enunciated by the likes of ‘Old Hickory’ Andrew Jackson, that is hardly surprising.

    When it comes to ‘ethnic cleansing’ ‘Old Hickory’ could certainly teach Radovan Karadic a thing or two.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson

  53. ‘Really, what demarcates an indigenous Brit and a non-indigenous Brit?’

    FWIW I am ‘indigenous Brit’ and my wife is ‘a non indigenous Brit’. If you were to meet us in person I doubt if you would have a problem in deciding how to demarcate the difference.

  54. Stephen Morgan

    30 Jul, 2011 - 9:14 am

    Some think of England ’twas our Saviour meant,
    The Gospel should to all the world be sent:
    Since, when the blessed sound did hither reach,
    They to all nations might be said to preach.

    ‘Tis well that virtue gives nobility,
    How shall we else the want of birth and blood supply?
    Since scarce one family is left alive,
    Which does not from some foreigner derive.

  55. However did he find the time to write Stephen? And what tumultuous times he lived in.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Defoe

  56. “I was not suggesting that this obnoxious woman, Geller, be “thrown into jail”. I was suggesting that she be investigated by the law enforcement authorities in the USA and that if enough evidence is amassed to make a prosecution viable, then prosecution most definitely should be considered. If high-profile public figures are seen NOT to be held to account, arguably it gives the green light for further atrocities.”

    Wow, Suhayl. You played doctor for a while, and now you’re playing lawyer.

  57. Right, Suhayl and OldMark, a perfect response to calling into question this thread is to bring up the 19th century.

    The best you can do is to bring up the 19th century. Like me walking up to a German and blaming him for the Holocaust.

  58. No, I’m bringing up now, Yugostiglitz. The African-American population of Washington DC is NOW largely living in peripheral slums. In the C21st. In the South, Jim Crow was overtly alive and until the early 1970s. James Baldwin was late C20th and Alice Walker is now.
    .
    But why so sensitive? Don’t you align yourself with progressive forces in your own country?
    .
    Are you, or are you not, a Blue Dog?

  59. OldMark, technicolour can speak for themselves, but I would like to say that technicolour most certainly is not a “charlatan”. You may not know, possibly having only recently started commenting here, but technicolour has been commenting on this blog for years and is one of the most astute, lucid, rational and communicative commentators on the blog. One can agree or disagree with specific points. But they are not a charlatan – I would like to make that very clear.
    .
    I think technicolour’s point may have been that people in general gradually become ‘indigenised’ in relation to where they live. This would apply regardless of the way they look.
    .
    This necessitates a different understanding of the word and of the relationship b/w people and place, a move definitively away from ‘blood and soil’ (please understand that I’m not suggesting that you subscribe to that sort of concept, btw) and towards an acceptance of, and open-ness to, of our common humanity, of the problems and joys we experience in a specific setting.
    .
    And so, it is entirely possible that a Traveller, say, (and not just Travellers) might well see themselves as both Irish and British in a single sentence. Indeed, many people of Irish origin living in the UK see themselves in that way. As do people from many other groups. I am simultaneously Scottish, English and British (and, in different ways, Pakistani and Afghan and maybe also Indian). And actually many other things as well, not to do with specific nation-states, etc. This is common. I see no conflict in this dynamic.

  60. I’m sure Amy Winehouse (not a fan – know little about her) would be thrilled to see her video on Pamela Geller’s blog site, currently top of the front page:

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/

  61. OK, I’ll type this very slowly: the travellers have an I-r-i-s-h heritage but they live and work and travel and own homes in the U-K where their children were born. Hence the conflation between the descriptions ‘Irish’ and ‘UK’ travellers. Nice to see you’ve really concentrated on the serious issues OldMark – persecution and life expectancy, for example. Says a lot about you.

    For anyone else hard of understanding:in·dig·e·nous ( n-d j -n s). adj. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. Children who are born in the UK are therefore indigenous to it.

  62. de Quincy's Ghost

    30 Jul, 2011 - 11:50 am

    “Children who are born in the UK are therefore indigenous to it.”
    .
    Yes. Thank you for that, technicolour, it’s a good and useful point to be reminded of.
    .
    “Of course, he’s not really local, his great-grandmother was born 10 miles up the road”. I say this merely because I feel that “contrarianism” is an idea that deserves more respect than repetitive trolling earns for it.

  63. OldMark. As you’ve used the term also, let me ask the same kind of Q to you. and the Q isn’t ‘what doesn’t make an indigenous Brit?’ but rather, what does make an indigenous Brit what categories do you have to draw the line?

  64. “Wow, Suhayl. You played doctor for a while, and now you’re playing lawyer.” Yugostiglitz.
    .
    No. I’m playing citizen.
    .
    What are you playing, Larry?

  65. “Still wanting to hear of an example of a Muslim who was jailed for receiving an e-mail message.”
    .
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/29/radical-muslim-bilal-ahmad-jailed
    .
    .
    Suhayl – thanks.

  66. This piece by Richard Cottrell from his Progressive Press blog should interest commentators.

  67. You are playing into the racists’ hand with that Wendy.

  68. I’ve posted copies of Geller’s Atlas Shrugs pages at the link below, for easy reference:
    .
    http://www.killick1.plus.com/geller/explanation.html

  69. ‘Really, what demarcates an indigenous Brit and a non-indigenous Brit?’
    .
    .
    as far as im aware there is no british gene or chromosome, no english gene or chromosome that confers all the attributes of belief , values etc. there is nothing that confers britishness /englishness other than what is learnt through the education system, that which is contained in the environment: politics, advertising, laws .. through parents .. etc that is its something that anyone can learn to be.
    .
    so all that demarcates the two is whether youve learned the rules to be ‘british’ which in itself has a wide spectrum of inclusive “values” such as a love for chicken jalfrezi , haggis or spotted dick

  70. Being adopted, I have no idea what my “ethnicity” is. But I’m White and I’m lucky enough to have a house to live in, so I get an easy time.

  71. “You are playing into the racists’ hand with that Wendy.”
    .
    .
    i understand but its not a racist or religious issue its an issue of criminality, the fact remains that for a similar act far right activists are rarely convicted . that is there are double standards and that justice is not equal nor based on criminality alone just as reporting is not equal or free of religious/color bigotry
    .
    .
    the difference between those seeking justice and the racist/anti islam/muslim is that the latter is looking to blame and scapegoat on the basis of faith or ‘race’ and seek ‘justice’ on that basis whilst the former seek justice on the basis of the crime and the law as it stands.

  72. Wikispooks, thanks for the linked artucle, where Richard Cottrell (journalist) says:
    .
    “The horrors in Norway are straight out of the Gladio manual of false flag terror designed to push public opinion in a selected direction, in this case away from the anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian, NATO-wavering policies practiced by the Norwegian government.”
    .
    A week after the massacre, does such a change of Norway’s foreign policies look more likely? Not to me.

  73. Levantine, yes, Norway has responded with more democracy and respect, not less:
    .
    http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/07/24
    .
    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/07/28-3

  74. She did edit the letter. Compare the letter on the blog now:

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/06/email-from-norw.html

    With the copy stored in the Wayback machine (http://www.archive.org):

    http://web.archive.org/web/20071230055957/http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/06/email-from-norw.html

    The quote was there, so it must have been edited in the last couple of hours.

  75. Clark: Levantine, yes, Norway has responded with more democracy and respect, not less

    Indeed it has; in the form of what appears to be a solid political elite consensus – so far. I just wonder who may have been keeping their heads waiting for such an opportunity to demand the required AS/UK/NATO/EU policy adjustments be implemented. That or its as crude as the article suggests (which I have to say would not surprise me).

    It’s early days though. This be THE major influence in Norwegian foreign policy and gobalisation issues henceforth. It will be interesting to see how long the current government can hold that line. My rueful and reluctant guess is that it will be measured in months.

  76. On googling Borghezios name and links with Gladio, this interesting little website popped up, fasciniating and long winded, it is the definate answer to the question,
    ‘who has most bomb making/ conspiracy experience in Europe’

    What comes up is a clear link between Gladio, the P2 masonics of Berslusconi and Fini, as well as the machinations of the northern liga, Umberto Bossi’s lot, as well as the MEP, who now retracted his support for Anders Breivig, Mario Borghezio.

    Was Borghezio bragging? did he speak out of order?

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/59931990/Strategy-of-Tension—The-Case-of-Italy—_US-secret-service_-massacres_-P2-masonry_-Aldo-Moro_-Left-brigades_-Gladio-masonic-politics-fascism-Berlusconi_

  77. Damn! – can’t get used to formatting and checking stuff on here before posting. Last post should read as follows. Sorry:

    Clark: Levantine, yes, Norway has responded with more democracy and respect, not less
    .
    Indeed it has; in the form of what appears to be a solid political elite consensus – so far. I just wonder who may have been keeping their heads down waiting for such an opportunity to demand the required AS/UK/NATO/EU policy adjustments be implemented. That or its as crude as the article suggests (which I have to say would not surprise me).
    .
    It’s early days though. This be THE major influence in Norwegian foreign policy and gobalisation issues henceforth. It will be interesting to see how long the current government can hold that line. My rueful and reluctant guess is that it will be measured in months.

  78. The funding trail would be intriguing. Perhaps, then, with many of these events, the question likely to yield the most solid answers is not ‘Who benefits?’, but rather, ‘Who paid?’

  79. …. which, of course, is exactly what our Argonautical host was asking.

  80. “Are you, or are you not, a Blue Dog?”
    “Woof-woof. Down, boy, down! Heel!”
    Suhayl, sometimes you act just like the little brat who taunts the school bully from behind the steel wire mesh, safe in the knowledge he can run back to his bigger mates for protection. You use name-calling, mockery and insinuations.
    By playing the cheeky child, you make it impossible to transact at the level of adult to adult. This provokes frustration, and that’s your chief weapon, but it doesn’t create a good impression of you or the blog. It’s lucky this time there were adults like Technicolour and Mary around to step in to tackle the propaganda rationally; otherwise the cited ‘facts’ would go unchecked.
    I sense that there is an archetype of this schoolyard scenario buried deep in your psyche (quite possibly imprinted by early life experiences with racist bullies). I’m sorry if that’s what happened, but it’s time to respond as an adult now.
    I see you’ve just lampooned my earlier appeal for rational debate as “Edwardian decorum”, with a silly, mocking caricature. Previously, you tried to slur me as a racist-by-association simply because I was defending the right to free expression. I can imagine a host more childish rebukes from you in the same vein. Your first instinct will be to attack my identity. Irrelevant. I do occasionally post here under a different tag, and would contribute more if your childish provocations weren’t so off-putting. To my mind, they are a scourge on open debate, and inconsistent with a liberal philosophy.
    If your objective is to keep strangers out of your own gang’s patch, you may succeed. However, I worry about the impression this conveys to Craig’s casual readers. No more does this website seem like a liberal resource for rational exchange of opposing views: it simply becomes a territorial playground for a clique of permitted regulars.
    I notice that when you get into these moods, Suhayl, you feel you have to comment on just about everything (including your own impression of how your cyberpals are doing, and speculations about the motives outside your circle), and your associations become increasingly eccentric (you probably regard them as ‘poetic’). The tide ebbs and flows, just like Opmoc’s meanderings, but on a shorter cycle.

  81. Foobar, Craig made his post on July 29, 2011 at 1:54 pm. Richard Gadsden submitted his comment “Has she edited the letter?” at 6:03 pm the same day. The Google cache version is from the end of June.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/07/who-funded-breivik/#comment-317191

  82. SenorSwiffer

    30 Jul, 2011 - 7:01 pm

    Just this May Gellar also posted a quote (apparently approvingly) from a reader of her blog who called for the politicians and “elite” of Norway to meet the same fate as Quisling.

    She has now altered that quote as well, without any disclosure of the edit. Shameful dishonesty, especially from someone who just a few days ago was indignantly and angrily lashing out against anyone who dared suggest that her blog might have condoned hate or violence.

    A cached version of the page from 7/26 is here: http://bit.ly/q9kIOA

    The version as it exists today is: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/05/norway-all-rapes-in-past-5-years-committed-by-muslimsnon-western-immigrants.html (the original full comment from “Madelina” can still be seen in the comments list timestamped Saturday, May 28, 2011 at 04:38 PM)

    By the way, take a look at the other comments on these posts. Many, many hateful sentiments, against both Muslims and the leaders/politicians of Europe, and explicit calls for violence. Much of it using very similar language to Breivik’s trash. And they’re really trying to deny that there’s ANY connection between the ideas spread on their blogs and Breivik’s beliefs/actions?

  83. As everyone will have noticed, and as someone hereabouts predicted, there is a flood of ‘information’ and revelation about supposed ‘links’ across the web; I’m sure some of it is disinfomration, some, simply speculation (the latter of which which I suppose is what we’re engaged in here). There are stories supposedly emanating from the FSB in Russia – it seems rather convenient, though, for the FSB supposedly to release this info. into the public sphere. And of course, the FSB themselves are no strangers to false-flag terrorism. The fact that an organisation releases disinformation need not imply that they had anything to do with a specific incident, merely that thyey may be attempting to take advantage of it in the power-games these “dark actors” play. . All very murky.

  84. Proud Norwegian

    30 Jul, 2011 - 9:17 pm

    So much lie I am Norwegian and Oslo is not 50%Muslim.believe me this thing which happend last week has made us stronger and closer to each other. Yesterday the PM had speech at Mosque for muslims Friday prayer. Extremist are in every country and religion!

  85. Thank you for that Proud Norwegian. I am sure we all send our condolences to those of your contrymen and women who have been bereaved in this horrible way.
    .
    Thanks too Wendy for clarifying that. I am sure I thanked you earlier but cannot see the comment. It is shocking that a sentence of 12 years has been given and just as shocking as the jail sentences for the young mainly Muslims who protested in London during Cast Lead and when they were kettled.
    .
    CD I did not like your ad hominem about Suhayl.
    .
    [Mod: Mary, your reply to Wendy is on another thread.]

  86. Brilliant, I’m now a ‘rational adult’ for the purposes of attacking Suhayl when before I was – can’t be bothered to check up on the name calling. And this from someone who admits to using false identities (no admission necessary, really – people’s identity is all too curiously visible in their prose). Incidentally, if Suhayl’s sane and wittily eclectic contributions are ‘inconsistent with a liberal philosophy’ then you should surely approve of them, Alfred; given your much expressed views on ‘liberals’. Suhayl, thumbs up all round then. Sing to the man (and his sock puppets)!

  87. ps Suhayl; seems you may have touched a nerve with the accurate reminder that a) anyone sane would have reported Gellar and b) one should look to who paid for this murderer.

  88. I reported this information to the NYC and NY State Police. FYI to all. It should be investigated especially if it can give any lead to finding some who may be in league with Breivik (or indeed if the message was from Breivik himself).

  89. Der Spiegel article on growing links between the European far right and the Israeli Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu parties:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,777175,00.html

    Individuals in the Israeli Government seem to be calculating that the anti-Islamic far right are the future of Europe.

  90. Thanks, Technicolour, much appreciated. It seems that ‘cd’ has never heard of ‘Blue Dog Democrats’. Well, well. I agree with your (rational, adult) analysis. It’s fascinating and also amusing that I summon-up ‘CD’ in jest and rather like the genie of the Ring (or a puppet in a Javanese show), ‘CD’ appears in rigid, po-faced defence, it would seem, of both Alfred (Can Speccy) and Larry (Yugostiglitz), commentators whom one might have supposed would not nornally sit in the same corner of the (boxing) ring. Well, well, how intriguing.
    .
    But really, you know, I would prefer to meet the Genie of the Lamp. As as sort of Urdu-Italian version (indigenous British) Cinderella (freshly-bruised from playground bullying) might say:
    .

    “Arey yaar, bhen-chaud, don’t send me these frog footmen! Send me the British Mitochondrion. Gimme Prince Charming! Gimme the capo di capo re!”
    .
    I sense that you are correct: I have touched a raw nerve in those two statements, that:
    .
    a) anyone sane would have reported Gellar/ the poster on her blog, and
    .
    b) one should look to who paid for this murderer.
    .
    On which note, good on you, too, Craig B, for reporting the info. to the NYC and NY State police.
    .
    Now, where was that bone? I hear the Blue Dog approaching. Or might that be, the bulldog? Ruff-Rrrrrrufff!!! Aoooooo!!
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WBelmO65J4

  91. I think also that the very fact that Geller appears to have removed the sentence from her blog after the event illustrates that she is running scared of being associated with this atrocity. I would argue that that in itself is an admission of guilt – guilt, that is, in the ethical, moral, rather than the strictly criminal law, sense. If she didn’t think it was of any importance, why remove it? As often is the case, wrt Geller, it’s not so much the act, it’s the cover-up that pins them. Gellar is hoist on her own petard. Now, let’s hoist them all! Time to plough the easily accessible and also the deep web. Time for ‘indecent exposure’! Go for it. We have dogs, too. Grrrrrr!

  92. ‘Proud Norwegian’, I would like to echo the comments by others here in relation to our sympathies to those who have been touched by this dreadful atrocity.
    .

    Thank you also for providing us with confirmation that the claims about percentages of Muslims in Oslo frequently made by the Far Right – including, allegedly, the perpetrator of this atrocity – are utterly, 100%, completely bogus.
    .
    So, big lies and mass murder, that’s what the Far Right stands – that is what the Far Right always stood for. But who might be standing behind them? Who is in the shadows?

  93. SS: “Now, where was that bone? I hear the Blue Dog approaching. Or might that be, the bulldog? Ruff-Rrrrrrufff!!! Aoooooo!!”
    CD: “I can imagine a host more childish rebukes from you in the same vein. …
    “You use name-calling, mockery and insinuations. it’s time to respond as an adult now. …
    “If your objective is to keep strangers out of your own gang’s patch, you may succeed. …
    “No more does this website seem like a liberal resource for rational exchange of opposing views: it simply becomes a territorial playground for a clique of permitted regulars.”
    Sad.

  94. ‘For anyone else hard of understanding:in·dig·e·nous ( n-d j -n s). adj. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. Children who are born in the UK are therefore indigenous to it.’

    Thanks for that clarification Techie. Useful to get that learnt.
    I now know that in future, according to your humpty dumpty definition, I should refer to the children of £10 Poms in Australia as ‘indigenous Australians’.

  95. Thanks to proud morwegian for visiting us here in times of national grieve, there are many who feel with you. Please do inform your Norwegian friends of what we have found.
    Maybe your police force will soon explain what they have found on that mans computer, what his fellow freemasons, have to say and to what extend he has travelled abroad.

    Also Craig B, thanks for reporting this to the police, the more US citizens point to their ‘homeland security act’ and the lack of attention give to rightwing terrorist outrages and follow your example, report her blatant encouragement and conspiracy to deceit, the better.

    Thanks senor swiffer, very helpfull, I hope you realise that you have to start the ball rolling over the pond, she has a terrible influence on young minds and the tea party is seemingly out to wreck, here, there and everywhere.

  96. “I should refer to the children of £10 Poms in Australia as ‘indigenous Australians’.” Old Mark
    .
    Interesting. A attempt to relate the situation in the UK re. inherent, historical polyvalency with that in Australia. Alfred tried that one, too, before. Tried to make White British people appear as though on the verge of extinction, ‘just like Aboriginals’. Hence his silly “genocide” usage. OldMark, don’t fall into that one. It’s a no-hoper.

  97. Thanks, Mary – just saw your sturdy riposte to mp3, I mean, lp, I mean, shellac, I mean wax cylinder, I mean cd! But what’s his serial number, eh? You can tell where a wax cylinder was made by its serial number. Is he ‘brown’ or ‘black’?

  98. Suhayl- the point I’m attempting to make is that technicolour’s use of the term ‘indigenous’ is fundamentally dishonest- not that the native population of England is threatened by genocide, as Alfred/Can Speccy has (cantankerously ?) suggested.

    BTW I think you’ll find most of the south Asian residents of Leicester know that one generation’s residence in a specific place doesn’t qualify you as ‘indigenous’. Most of them are south Asian by way of East Africa, where they were resident for 2/3 generations before they were brutally excluded from their role as ‘market dominant minorities’ by the indigenous Africans.

  99. “I should refer to the children of £10 Poms in Australia as ‘indigenous Australians’.” Old Mark

    Yes, I guess you should. Or simply ‘Australians’ in fact: most people do.

  100. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 1:25 pm

    “I think you’ll find most of the south Asian residents of Leicester know..”

    Amazing, your insight into the minds of ‘most of the residents’ of anywhere; all the way from Canada too. Honestly, it’s like someone inserting a dead slug (I don’t object to live ones) into the board.

  101. Personally, I’m an indigenous earthling.

  102. ‘For anyone else hard of understanding:in·dig·e·nous ( n-d j -n s). adj. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. Children who are born in the UK are therefore indigenous to it.’
    .
    Tech, where did that definition come from?

  103. OldMark is in Canada?

  104. “Personally, I’m an indigenous earthling”.
    .
    Me too. According to the research of the human genome project, we are all descendants of only a few thousand individuals who were around 10-15 thousand years ago, survivors perhaps of some global catastrophe. There’s more genetic variation between, say, two colonies of monkeys living 50 miles apsrt in the African bush than there is between an Icelander and an “indigenous” Australian. We’re all so closely related it;s verging on the distasteful.
    .
    Love your fellow man, we are indeed all family.

  105. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 2:17 pm

    dreoilin: free online (am away from my copy of the OED)> Merriam-Webster has: “produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment”

  106. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 2:25 pm

    ps OldMark/CanSpeccy/Alfred, no?

    pps of course we are all indigenous earthlings :)

  107. “We’re all so closely related it’s verging on the distasteful”
    .
    :)
    .
    Tech, thanks about the definition. Was just wondering. Never occurred to me about OldMark. Is CD Albert too? I thought it was established otherwise, a while ago. But maybe I’m just not paying enough attention.

  108. By the way, I’ll be spending at least one night in Leicester soon. The coincidence is tickling me … I’ll bring back a first hand report.
    .
    (I’m kidding)

  109. “According to the research of the human genome project, we are all descendants of only a few thousand individuals who were around 10-15 thousand years ago, survivors perhaps of some global catastrophe.”
    .
    Is this the group from whom a smaller group set out and travelled north and east from the area of the equator? Fascinating stuff. And we were all black/brown skinned back then. Of course some idiots will deny this – say God created us all different or some such nonsense. (And then spend money on a spray-tan to make themselves as dark as possible. This always tickles me pink … No pun intended. Cf Steve Biko and the judge.)

  110. “Is this the group from whom a smaller group set out and travelled north and east from the area of the equator?”
    .
    Dunno. Haven’t seen any concerted effort to reconcile the genetic evidence with our understanding of human history. The dating is interesting; there are a few areas where the archaeology suggests that civilisations arose around the 10,000 BC mark: the Indus valley, Tigris/Euphrates and Lake Titicaca for instance. Definite clusters. Don’t know how our ancestors got there though, or whether they were there already.

  111. “And then spend money on a spray-tan to make themselves as dark as possible. This always tickles me pink” Dreoilin.
    .
    Ha! Good one! Yes, it amuses me, too. And then those who have natural tan spend money on skin-whitening creams to make themselves look pinker.
    .
    Humanity is hilarious, a true theatre of the absurd.
    .

    Of course, they do these things for rather different reasons, historico-culturally. The spray-tan brigade relates largely to a post-WW1 1920s association of tan with wealthy traveller (later, celebrity) to the Mediterranean just like in the new glossy magazines and consequent changing concepts of beauty.
    .
    The skin-whitening relates to imperial hangover (in the UK/Europe), the ahistorical (largely capitalist) lie that we are in a ‘post-racial society’ (and so, according to this theory, such acts now are equivalent and also ‘neutral’ vis a vis signification and history) and possibly, in the USA, to the plantation hierarchy in the southern states of the USA/ colour hierarchies more generally in the USA. Interestingly, the fondness for fair (though not necessarily ‘White’ with a capital W) skin also exists in South Asian culture, partly because of the impact of the caste system (intensified by British Imperial input) re. Brahminical Hinduism/ ‘Aryanism’. And also in Arabia to some extent, possibly because of the desert sun(=poverty=nomad) and the proximity, historically, of Byzantine and Sassanid (Persian) Empires; water and fairness were likely to be signs of wealth, cultural sophistication and luxury.
    .
    Enjoy yourself in Leicester, Dreoilin! Don’t do anything I wouldn’t (!)
    .
    What was the thing about Steven Biko and the judge? Please enlighten. Thanks.

  112. Holy fuck! The digressions from the initial argument here between me & technicolour are amazing.

    To summarize-
    1.Technicolour seems to think (at least when trying to argue with Can Speccy) that it is accurate to refer to second generation immigrants as ‘indigenous’ to the country where they now live
    2.I rejoindered that, using this eccentric definition, the children of £10 Poms qualify as ‘indigenous Australians’.
    3.Suhahl found this comparison, for whatever reason, distasteful.
    4.My oblique reference to the fact that a large percentage of the forebears of Leicester’s present day population lived in Gujerat 150 years ago, East Africa 50 years ago, and England today, caused some commenters to wander off into discussions about the pre history of homo sapiens- as if that has any relevance to the initial argument.

    Get a grip & calm down.

    PS- I am not Canadian; that is Alfred/Can Speccy !

  113. “…discussions about the pre history of homo sapiens- as if that has any relevance to the initial argument”
    .
    The initial argument was about Breivik, his funding and his connections with the Geller woman. The “wandering off” occurred when discussions of race and indigenous populations started up. Since you mention it however ancient human history is key to our understanding of what makes an “indigenous” population. How could it possibly be otherwise?

  114. Well, it’s just the way webversations occur, Old Mark. It’s no criticism of you specifically or whatever, it’s the nature of thought association, a little like being simultaneously in a room full of people and also, to some small extent, inside their heads. It’s not always linear.
    .
    Btw, to clarify, I didn’t find your comparison “distateful”, I just thought it decontextualised and perhaps naive and simplistic. You see, the whole debate about ‘indigenousness’ has been raised by the Rabid Right; as so often before, they’ve appropriated a term from a specific other thematic area and then used it to apply to wholly different circumstances. And that, if I may suggest, if what is fundamentally dishonest. Once again, I want to make it clear that I not suggesting that you are being in any way dishonest. I just think that before using/ bestowing respectability upon such signifiers, we would do well to think about their provenance; they do not exist in a ‘neutral vacuum’. They have been introduced into the public discourse for a distinct political purpose.

  115. Here’s a little something that I found interesting. On the Friday that the attack in Norway was taking place, and information was just beginning to trickle out about the blondness of the shooter, the following comment appeared on Geller’s website under the post about there being a “Jihad” in Norway (I’ve added emphasis):

    “Its Not a bad idea at all. If you have a country that welcomes >islamo facists
 who rape and abuse your community and countrymen and govt of libtards 
looks the other way…..someone has to take the battle to the enemies 
of the people.

    No point just sitting and blogging away. Its one way to Put fear back on 
libtards and the islamo-fascists. The message is clear – We can hit back.

    In times of crusades he would be a hero. First martyr / soldier to the
anti-jihad cause.

    If he speaks against islamo fascists , he will have done more
for anti-jihad cause than pamela and her band of bloggers could 
do in 10 years of blogging.

    Of course Geller does more than blog , but Andersbreivik knew
 this won’t work in the land of libtard loonies.”

    At the time what I found interesting was that the comment had been up long enough for several other comments to follow it, but none of Geller’s other commenters had seen fit to argue with someone who was plainly justifying Breivik’s attack.

    Now, more than a week later I find it especially interesting that A: The language of this comment seems to echo things from Breivik’s manifesto — crusader images, Islamic rape, etc. — and B: the commenter refers to Breivki “speak(ing) up against islamo fascists” well before we all learned of his desire to make his hearing a platform for his views.

    The comment has since disappeared, and alas, I did not get a screenshot of it, but I copied it. I saw it and, since it was removed, at least one other person also saw it.

  116. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 4:54 pm

    That’s all right, ‘OldMark’: Alfred/CanSpeccy isn’t Canadian either. Perhaps you missed him saying that he emigrated there? I don’t believe he’s taken out naturalisation papers, either.

    As for an argument: you don’t have one. As I said, you are welcome to refer to the children of people who emigrated to Australia as ‘indigenous Australians’, according to the dictionary definition. Otherwise, just refer to them as ‘Australians’, why don’t you?

    Hardly an ‘oblique’ reference to people in Leicester’s ancestral origins, by the way: you suggested that in some way it didn’t qualify them as ‘indigenous’. In fact, it not only qualifies them as ‘indigenous’, it qualifies them as ‘native British’.

  117. ALL people in the world have the SAME gene that gives them the colour of their skin. The gene is 100% the same. Why we have white (which by the way it is not!, its a light brown/pink colour), is because people who have lived in a cooler climate need more sunshine and the gene has powered itself down to try and give them it. Black/brown people need to repel the damage that too much sunshine would do to their skins. Swap white/brown people and black/brown people around from where they live and come back in about 10,000 years and you would find white people in the cooler climate, and black/brown people in the hot climate. Science has known about this for years!, it was discovered by two scientists in USA. By the way, they said, the TRUE colour of EVERYONE on the planet is BLACK, we are all the same, one race, the…human race.

  118. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 5:05 pm

    MJ: certainly a key to unlocking this nonsense, I do agree. But once you remove all the weasel words about race and origin, the weasels are left naked and exposed…

  119. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 5:08 pm

    Guest: exactly, it’s about the melanin, a pigment ‘ubiquitous in nature’ according to wiki, found in just about everything – with the exception of spiders. Perhaps these strange, fanatical, divisive pink people are aiming for spiderdom, not weaseldom, after all.

  120. Amazing that it all comes down to the amount of melanin within our bodies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin
    .
    Earlier I was thinking how terrific it is that Nadira who did not speak English as a first language, can take on the role of Medea. Not many of us could go out to Uzbekistan, learn the language and start using it on the stage. |
    .
    PS Does Karimov allow theatre in Uzbekistan?
    {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbek_language}

  121. Guest: absolutely, but it probably wouldn’t take as long as 10,000 years.
    .
    I remember watching an anthropological film about an African tribe whose name I forget. In this tribe, girls who were going through puberty were totally confined for six months. They were put in a windowless hut that they were not permitted leave until the time was up. When they eventually emerged they were white!

  122. technicolour, we DIDN`T really need those two scientists in USA to tell us what was staring us in the face!!!. Anyone can see the black going to pink the further north you traveled from the equator!. By the way, those two scientists in USA were advocating doing research into powering up the gene in white people in preparation for climate change, they said a lot of pink people were going to suffer from skin cancer. Makes you think about doing more on the climate change front.

  123. “Guest: absolutely, but it probably wouldn’t take as long as 10,000 years.”
    .
    MJ, I just put that in as a figure. You are very probably right, a lot less then 10,000 years.

  124. ‘the whole debate about ‘indigenousness’ has been raised by the Rabid Right; as so often before, they’ve appropriated a term from a specific other thematic area and then used it to apply to wholly different circumstances.’

    I’m not sure by what you mean by ‘different circumstances ‘ here Suhayl.

    My take on this is that some people are quite happy to insist on the correct usage of ‘indigenous’ when applying it to any human population outside of western Europe, but deny the applicability of the correct usage of the word in this particular part of the world.

    Furthermore, resentment of incomers, about whose presence the ‘indigenous’ haven’t been consulted, is widespread in all continents, but only in the case of western Europe is express opposition to this process deemed to be completely unacceptable and beyond the pale. Hence the attempts, by Technicolour & others (including, apparently, Yugo/Larry), to muddy the meaning of the term ‘indigenous’.

    Now, back to the thrilling developments at Trent Bridge- please !

  125. “indigenousness”
    .
    That word can only be used in relation to this planet!, NOT country, “country” is a manmade conception!.

  126. ‘Hardly an ‘oblique’ reference to people in Leicester’s ancestral origins, by the way: you suggested that in some way it didn’t qualify them as ‘indigenous’. In fact, it not only qualifies them as ‘indigenous’, it qualifies them as ‘native British’’.

    Lets try to cut away the outrage & the squid ink here, shall we Techie ?

    You seem to be saying here, in your characteristically incoherent way, that Leicester’s Gujerati population are ‘native British’.

    OK- fifty years ago, most of the ancestors of the Leicester Gujeratis lived in East Africa, not England.(Don’t just take my word for it, read Dr. Gurharpal Singh’s book on multi-racial Leicester).When they were resident (in some case for three generations)in East Africa in 1960, would it have been correct to refer to them as ‘native Africans ? If not, why not ?

    Pull the other one, you deluded ignoramus.

  127. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 6:18 pm

    ooh, didn’t take long for you to resort to insults, did it, ‘OldMark’. No, I am saying that anyone born in the UK is ‘indigenous’ to it, and ‘native’. Those are the definitions. Sorry.

    I appreciate that anyone who lives in a country for a number of years might feel part of it to the point that they would feel either, and that indeed the definitions would also at points cover that (see: growing/living in – Webster Mariam, above). I would never argue with that. I also see Guest’s wider point and heartily concur: indeed, it is my main rationale, too.

    But, ‘OldMark’ why don’t you just have a conversation with your doppelgangers? Sounds like you would enjoy it far more.

  128. Old Mark, might I request that you please stop addressing technicolour in that way? We can disagree, but no need for calling a person “a deluded ignoramus”, a “charlatan” and so on. I am beginning to conclude, I’m afraid, that you are neither naive nor simplistic. You’re really endorsing the same material that the web-based Far Right of which Alfred/Can Speccy is emblematic, endorses. That now seems very clear. Thank you for making it clear.
    .
    Paft, now that is a rather significant find wrt Geller/Breivik, do spread it around the web. Thank you or sharing it with us all here.
    .
    Guest, that was a wonderfully powerful post – really, a statement of common humanity.
    .
    MJ, Mary, good research and info., as always!
    .
    The focus here, I would suggest, needs to stay on Breivik/Geller/Far Right blogs/and most importantly, funding. Who gave Breivik the dosh? Who might have been behind him?

  129. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 6:28 pm

    ‘OldMark’: “resentment of incomers, about whose presence the ‘indigenous’ haven’t been consulted, is widespread in all continents”

    bleurgh. and you’d like to foster that, wouldn’t you?

  130. The Far Right is trying to focus the debate on immigration/the presence of black, brown and yellow people in ‘Europe’, etc., i.e. the same-auld, same-auld reekie material. Actually, the debate ought to be the role of the Far Right in the promotion of violent, organised acts of terrorism and and exploration of the possible role of state/ transnational corporate actors and organisations in that process. What are these offshore companies in the Caribbean? How might thye relate to Far Right bodies such as the EDL (and their equivalents across Europe), what about the mass blog presence of Far Right exponents of which, it seems, Breivik was just one. And so on.
    .
    So let’s turn it around. We, the humans who live in these parts of the world, i.e. ‘Europe’ – have absolutely no need to justify our presence/existence/ our identity/our loyalty, etc. Those on the Far Right, on the other hand, have much to explain about, not their beliefs – we know all about those – but their actions. For whom, specifically, might they be working?

  131. Technicolour- you’ve posted here twice since I asked you whether, using the definition you insist I adhere to, it is appropriate to refer to Gujeratis born & resident in East Africa 50 years ago as ‘native Africans ? You clearly don’t wish to answer the question. Like I said in my first post on this thread, you really are one for moving the goalposts when you feel like it.

    ‘and you’d like to foster that, wouldn’t you?’- since I’m married to an ‘incomer’ I certainly wouldn’t. The fact that you accuse me of such incitement says a hell of a lot about you, rather than me.

  132. The history of the terrorist Far Right in mainland Europe, post-WW2, would tend to suggest that they were largely funded by either a state or else a national intelligence service. Why, then, would one not make this assumption, at least as a thought-experiment, in the case of Breivik?
    .
    So, there’s the question of the overt plan and act, matters of materiel. And then, there is the question, raised in this post, of the coalescence of a public support network for individuals with these beliefs and the extent to which that support network might be deemed responsible for ramping-up and egging-on, networking, such individuals and organisations across national frontiers. Within this point is the issue of several strands of reactionary thought and strategy coming together; the union, or at least confederation, of the Zionist Far Right with the Neo-Nazi Far Right, which, I would suggest, is an entirely logical, not altogther new, but extremely dangerous, confluence, and so on. Also, there is the ongoing question of the broader discourse of hate in which the ruling elites of the USA/UK et al and their amplifiers in the MSM have engaged for some years now, largely in the context of the promotion of imperialist wars. And finally, there is the issue of what impact this massacre will have on politics and the political space in Europe.

  133. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 7:24 pm

    Classic tactics: is it “appropriate to refer to Gujeratis born & resident in East Africa 50 years ago as ‘native Africans”. The non-stupid answer is that certainly one should refer to someone born and living in Kenya , say, as ‘Kenyan’: unless, in fact, they did not wish to be referred to as Kenyan. Toujours la politesse. On which note, you are very welcome to this guide to international manners, ‘Old Mark’, as well as to geo-political realities. Similarly, one refers to someone born in the UK as British (or Scottish or Welsh, or English, or Northern Irish, if they prefer). If they have dual nationality, they can also choose.

    But, Suhayl, you are quite right: it is also a diversionary tactic which only serves to expose tedious truisms about the Far Right. Questions about the funding of the EDL and other groups, and their links to terrorists, are far more interesting. I can quite see it would be in their interests to sweep this under the carpet; certainly a wing of the BNP wanted to oust Griffin because his links to violence were open (in the case of his Nazi past) and unearthed (his links to the KKK). Research and destroy…

  134. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 7:56 pm

    “or at least confederation, of the Zionist Far Right with the Neo-Nazi Far Right, which, I would suggest, is an entirely logical, not altogther new, but extremely dangerous, confluence”

    Also mentioned elsewhere on this blog links between the extreme left and the extreme right in Norway. In the meantime our ‘mainstream’ (corporate) government are still bombing Libya, aren’t they? Sometimes I feel that Superman’s message in the much underrated Superman IV is the best note to end on before supper:
    “There will be peace when the people of the world, want it so badly, that their governments will have no choice but to give it to them.”

    Not sure about that extra comma, mind you.

  135. ‘Similarly, one refers to someone born in the UK as British’

    So, Technicolour, you’ve never met anyone from Andersonstown or Crossmaglen then ? What a sheltered life you’ve led.

  136. “What was the thing about Steven Biko and the judge?” — Suhayl
    .
    A line from the film Cry Freedom, where Steve Biko is in court and the judge asks him, “Why do you call yourself black when you’re brown?” and Steve Biko replies, “Why do you call yourself white when you’re pink?” My sons (who were watching it with me) thought this was an hilarious smack-down of the judge. (They were at an age where pink = “sissy”, but they understood the race issue very well.)
    .
    MJ, this is the report about origins that I was talking about (2007):
    .
    “The skulls that prove we all came from Africa”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-skulls-that-prove-we-all-came-from-africa-457844.html
    .
    “The human population arose from a single migration out of Africa 55,000 years ago, which replaced all other humans in Europe and Asia, a study shows.
    .
    “Scientists have confirmed the “out-of-Africa” model of human origins with a study that combines genetic evidence with physical data from more than 6,000 skulls around the world …
    .
    “Studies of DNA and the physical differences between skulls show that human variation diminishes the greater the distance from Africa. This confirms the view that after originating in Africa about 200,000 years ago, anatomically modern Homo sapiens lived on the continent for about 150,000 years before beginning the long trek to Asia, Australia, Europe and finally the Americas …”
    .
    I remember posting about it on far-right sites at the time, hoping to give some nasty white supremacist a stroke. Heh.

  137. “they said a lot of pink people were going to suffer from skin cancer. Makes you think about doing more on the climate change front.”
    .
    I assumed white people were more susceptible to melanoma, and then I discovered that Bob Marley died of melanoma. Meant to follow it up but got distracted by something else, as usual …

  138. Dreoilin: what I was talking about is much more recent than that, 10-15k years ago, practically yesterday. The genetic evidence points to a distinct bottleneck around that time. There were only a few thousand people left. Everyone on the planet today is descended from them. It looks like homo sapiens almost became extinct around that time, but there were enough survivors to enable recovery and repopulation.

  139. dreoilin, in the sad case Bob Marley there could have been other factors ?. Skin cancer kills many around the world. It is a fact that the darker the skin the less chance of skin cancer from the Sun. I think a lot of cancers are caused by what we eat, and the amount of man-made chemicals we eat/inhale and are exposed too!, the amount of chemicals in our clothes is just one example. It is said man was made a vegetarian and not a meat eater!, there may be something in that!, after all, our second stomach (appendix) has withered away due to us not using/needing it anymore, all due to man`s eating habits changing over so many thousands Of years.

  140. Technicolour, wrt our corporate govts and wars, yes, precisely. Also, “Research and destroy” – I like it!! And yes, I know of lot of East African Asians who loved Kenya, Uganda, etc., who were not necessarily racist wrt black Africans and who and still mourn what was/is a very deep loss to them. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is one. It was their home. They usually feel more connection with East Africa than they do with South Asia. They often also now feel British/English. These matters are complex, and that is good, they ought to be. To try to boil everone down to a single, monolithic identity (though nothing wrong if someone sees themselves that way, or if someone wants/needs to emphasise one aspect, or whatever for whatever reasons), but to impose it on others as a sort of condition of existence, is both daft and dangerous. Not daft, actually, just wrong.
    .

    Dreoilin, thanks, that’s a wonderful quote from Steve Biko.
    .
    And good on you for posting such intelligent material on Far Right sites – and injecting some light into what is a rather profound darkness.
    .
    And yes, you’re quite right, brown and black people do get melanoma and other such skin tumours – basal cell and squamous cell carcinomas, for example, though much less often than pinker cousins. It happens, though, eg. in Pakistan, etc. I think there may be some genetic vulnerability – as with many tumours, actually, so some people will simply be more vulnerable to aberrant mutation of certain cells, or rather, to the body being unable to search and destroy mutated cells (as all our bodies do, many times every day; in fact, the systems are so complex, I’ve often thought that it’s a wonder anything at all works!). Billions of years of evolution impart strength, I guess. This elegance and complexity is a marvel, in the sort of ‘Carl Sagan’ (one of my heroes!) sense, and makes all the narrow, tribal stuff seem so very pathetic.
    .
    Someone like Breivik is pathetic, a loser, a nothing. that’s not to say that there were not forces behind him, etc. as I’ve suggested. But he’s not a hero or a villain. he’s like the taxi-driver in Cumbria, or the murderers of Hungerford/Dunblane, etc. He’s a nobody who wanted to become somebody and who had no specific talent. He’s simply another product of the society of the spectacle (or of the icon, as Mark Golding would have it).

  141. “Someone like Breivik is pathetic”
    .
    He is not pathetic, he is insane, like (sadly) so many in this world, but, we are where we are, we have to deal with it as best we can. Always remember Pandora`s box, what else have we ?.

  142. I’m not so sure, Guest, that he is insane. I think he knew precisely what he was doing. If he were insane, one might be able to say, “Well, he was ill”. From what I’ve heard so far, there does not seem to be any evidence the Breivik was ill. In other words, he is likely to be bad, rather than mad.
    .
    I would say, “I spit on him”. But I wouldn’t waste even my spit on such a man. He was the instrument. Who was the conductor?

  143. Jaysus, Pamela Geller is “Clarifying the Edit” and “explaining” why, “We are stockpiling and caching weapons, ammunition and equipment. This is going to happen fast”, was removed:
    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/clarifying-email-from-norway-edit.html
    .
    and then ranting again about Norway:
    “Summer Camp? Antisemitic Indoctrination Training Center”, (thereby taking the same line as Glenn Beck, the moronic asshole who likened the camp to Hitler Youth)
    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/summer-camp-indoctrination-training-center.html
    .
    Sorry folks, got to fly, back later …

  144. Now, here’s an interesting compliation relating to both Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer. It makes fascinating reading.

    .
    http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/robert_spencer_pamela_geller_and/0018701

  145. Suhayl, there’s an Irish expression, “I wouldn’t give him the steam off my piss”.
    I did another comment and I was just about to go “Where? what?? {splutter}” until I realised it has two links in it. I assume it’ll appear later. À bientôt

  146. “Who was the conductor?”
    .
    Would be worth finding out more about his parents background!, his father…”Breivik’s father worked as a diplomat for the Royal Norwegian Embassy in London (and later Paris).” Must have made many foreign contacts from all around the world, but who were they ?, “Royal Norwegian Embassy” would have involved many in international intelligence, how many knew his son ?. Somewhere in there I think is the answer, but…who knows, there may have been no conductor ?.

  147. ‘dreoilin, in the sad case Bob Marley there could have been other factors ?’

    Like, umm, the fact that Marley’s dad was a white Englishman ?

  148. Wayne,
    What I find disturbing is that nobody in Norway or the UK or Europe for that matter can voice against immigration. For example, if you say something against immigration then you are labelled a racist or a faccist or whatever. There are many countries that control immigration tightly including: Switzerland, Japan, Korea, China, UAE, Qatar, Taiwan, etc. It would seem to me that there is absolutely no reason for Norway to have such numbers of non-european immigrants? They had no colonies etc.
    The subject of racism is another taboo. I am not Norwegian but if I were a young Norwegian male then I would not want foreigners competing for the girls in my country. Everyone I ever met wants to score with a scandinavian girl. Women in Spain for instance, spend huge sums of money to dye their hair blonde to please Spanish men! this is universal and the scandinavians throughout history (read any saga, history book, Irish tale whatever) are known to be pleasant to the eye. Imagine some woman wanted a foreign man, eventually she might desist and marry a local, but if now you bring in foreign men into your oil rich country and give them equal opportunity to the locals, then a percentage (hard to know how many) will marry the foreign man. So why should a Scandinavian person not be by definition racist? Besides these “white elephant” topics that nobody can discuss without being lynched, is the reality that the Norwegian Labour party must be run by a bunch of left wing Marxists after votes for why would they take on so many refugees. I did visit Oslo in 1994 and I did not see hardly a single immigrant! I went back in 2001 and the place looked as diverse as London. This is a country with no colonies! I asked some ethnic norwegian lady in the street how come there were so many people of race and she said to me quietly “a series of left wing governments have allowed them in”. While we cannot accept what this killer has done, I honestly believe that the Labour party has some responsibility for this. They bought votes with immigrants so they cannot be removed, and they do not allow discussion on immigration and label everyone a bigot who contradicts their policty. So how is that a democracy? you cannot protest against them and you cannot vote them out, and they are fundamentally changing the demographics and the culture of Norway?

  149. Re: Technicolor:
    *
    “yes, he lied about ‘genocide in Leicester’ (Muslim population around 3 percent); he can quote whoever he likes on the definition of genocide: we all know that it is, as the OED says, ‘extermination’”
    *
    For the record, it was Techie who lied — twice:

    FIRST: I said nothing about the Muslim population of Leicester. I said (see above) that the ethnic population of Leicester is estimated at 51.43%, in support of which I cited:

    ETHNIC POPULATION FORECASTS FOR LEICESTER USING POPGROUP
    *
    by James Danielis, September 2007
    *
    Cathie Marsh Centre for census and survey research. A dissertation submitted to the University of Manchester for the degree of MSc. in Social Research Methods and Statistics, in the Faculty of Humanities.
    *
    Year 2011, Total population of Leicester 279933, Ethnic population 143,963 (51.43%).
    *
    http://www.ccsr.ac.uk/research/documents/EthnicPopulationForecastsforLeicester.pdf
    *
    SECOND: The Oxford English Dictionary does NOT define “genocide” primarily in terms of “extermination.”

    It defines genocide as “the deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group” and cites the first usage of the term as R. Lemkin, Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, (1944) p. 79: “By ‘genocide’ we mean the destruction of a nation or an ethnic group.” Source: www2.iath.virginia.edu/holocaust/genocide.html.
    *
    More explicitly, Lemkin stated:
    *
    “The crime of the [German Nazi] Reich in wantonly and deliberately wiping out whole peoples is not utterly new in the world. …
    *
    It is for this reason that I took the liberty of inventing the word, “genocide.” The term is from the Greek word genes meaning tribe or race and the Latin cide meaning killing. Genocide tragically enough must take its place in the dictionary of the future beside other tragic words like homicide and infanticide. As Von Rundstedt has suggested the term does not necessarily signify mass killings although it may mean that.
    *
    More often it refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.”

  150. Re: Technicolor:
    *
    “yes, he lied about ‘genocide in Leicester’ (Muslim population around 3 percent); he can quote whoever he likes on the

    definition of genocide: we all know that it is, as the OED says, ‘extermination’”
    *
    For the record, it was Techie who lied — twice:

    FIRST: I said nothing about the Muslim population of Leicester. I said (see above) that the ethnic population of

    Leicester is estimated at 51.43%, in support of which I cited:

    ETHNIC POPULATION FORECASTS FOR LEICESTER USING POPGROUP
    *
    by James Danielis, September 2007
    *
    Cathie Marsh Centre for census and survey research. A dissertation submitted to the University of Manchester for the

    degree of MSc. in Social Research Methods and Statistics, in the Faculty of Humanities.
    *
    Year 2011, Total population of Leicester 279933, Ethnic population 143,963 (51.43%).

  151. Re: Techie’s lies
    *
    SECOND: The Oxford English Dictionary does NOT define “genocide” primarily in terms of “extermination.”
    *
    It defines genocide as “the deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group” and cites the first
    *
    usage of the term as R. Lemkin, Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, (1944) p. 79: “By ‘genocide’ we mean the destruction of a nation or an ethnic group.” Source: www2.iath.virginia.edu/holocaust/genocide.html.
    *
    More explicitly, Lemkin stated:
    *
    “The crime of the [German Nazi] Reich in wantonly and deliberately wiping out whole peoples is not utterly new in the world. …
    *
    It is for this reason that I took the liberty of inventing the word, “genocide.” The term is from the Greek word genes meaning tribe or race and the Latin cide meaning killing. Genocide tragically enough must take its place in the dictionary of the future beside other tragic words like homicide and infanticide. As Von Rundstedt has suggested the term does not necessarily signify mass killings although it may mean that.
    *
    More often it refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.”

  152. Suhayl:
    .
    Living in S.E.A I have seen a lot of issues surrounding skin colour and the desire to be light skinned. I’m no expert on the matter, but my impressions are that the desire to have light skin over here is not really connected to western influence. It’s seen as an indicator of wealth and location. Living in a city you are more likely to be pale, working in a field you are more likely to be dark. I’m constantly amazed when I see construction workers covered head to toe in heavy clothing, their face wrapped up leaving only a slit for the eyes working in 35+ degree heat when I’m almost dying from heat exhaustion sitting in the shade with a t-shirt and shorts. It’s funny to see but in virtually every foreign/local relationship I have seen, the foreigner wants to be darker, the local wants to be fairer and neither can convince the other of what is more attractive.
    .
    All:
    .
    I love multiculturalism and laugh at how quaint my parents were when they talk of sweet and sour chicken being exotic when they were at university. According to the Australian census more than one fifth of the population were born overseas. Furthermore, almost 50% of the population were either:
    born overseas; or had one or both parents born overseas.
    In terms of net migration per capita, Australia is ranked 18th (2008 Data) ahead of Canada, the USA and most of Europe.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism_in_Australia
    While there are some race issues in Australia (where aren’t there?), I do think it is a very successful example of multiculturalism making a country stronger and a hell of a lot more interesting to live in.
    .
    All that said, I am going against the grain and agreeing with Oldmarks definition of indigenous. I’m Australian and identify as such, but I wouldn’t call myself indigenous Australian, and I think many many Aborigines would be quite upset with me if I did. I was taught that scientifically indigenous refered to biology that evolved it’s characteristics based on the local environment, I don’t think you can say that of people living only a few generations in a location.
    .
    Alfred:
    .
    Your use of the word genocide is ridiculous at best. Your are being obtuse when you pretend your use of the word is in line with the spirit of the word as it is used by most people today. While there is dispute over the precise definition of genocide, it is legally defined as;
    .
    “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
    .
    (a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”
    .
    Furthermore go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history and look at the many many examples of genocide over the ages. None of them really strike a resemblance with what is happening in the UK today. Your definition is so broad that it can be used at almost any time society changes/evolves. There is no pure ‘golden age’ as you seem to imply. Nothing is constant, in order to evolve, old ways must end.

  153. Dreoilin, brilliant maxim! I must store that one up!
    .
    CheebaCow, fascinating post and thanks for sharing it with us. Forgive my ignorance, but what does S.E.A. stand for? Is that ‘South-Eastern Australia’?
    .
    I think we need to be careful, as risk pandering to the racist Right’s agenda and discussing matters with which only they are obsessed.
    .
    As an example of a purveyor of Far Right ideology on the web (though why specifically on this website, one wonders?), Has Alfred/ Can Speccy forcefully and clearly condemned Breivik actions on this blog? Instead, he seems to spend most of his time providing gleeful apologia for them. He seems more concerned with “miscegenation” than with one of those who share his political outlook shooting nearly 100 children dead. I think that says it all.
    .
    And so, through the words of Alfred and Larry, both of whom seem antitherical to much of what seem to me to be the central theses of CM’s blog, we are witnessing the de facto union of two forms of violent extremism, a union exemplified by the words of (the likes of ) Pamela Geller/Robert Spencer and the actions of Anders Breivik.
    .
    We must thank both of them for allowing to witness this fascinating spectacle.

  154. CheebaCow, this is why I said that the racist Far Right’s importation of the word, ‘indigenous’ was appropriating a word from an entirely different context (the historical decimation, apartheid, etc. imposed on Australian Aboriginals, American Indians, etc.) with immigration of black, yellow and brown people (because that’s what it’s about) into Western Europe from the 1940s onwards. By using the term, they want to pose as victims. Hence also the “genocide” mis-usage. They are providing justification – in the current context – for the actions of Breivik; for that is what this ‘philosophy’ leads to. Words do not exist in a vacuum. They are used to oppress black, brown and yellow people living in Europe. That is the basic intention.
    .
    This ought not to be about justifying the presence of brown, black and yellow people in Europe. But that is what the racist Far Right want to form the central discussion. Here, on this blog, they are attempting to amplify and capitalise on Brievik’s words and actions. I think we should be aware of this.

  155. There is no doubt that terrorism is being used by the global elites to create a manageable chaos. During the last decades there were no major terrorist attacks that would not enhance the rule of Western secret services, global oligarchy and competency of TNCs at the expense of civil rights and freedoms.

    The most phantasmagoric example was 9/11. Once the propagandistic effect of the war against Al-Qaeda that resulted in occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq and establishment of the US military infrastructure by Chinese and Russian borders in Central Asia has faded away, a body resembling bin Laden was buried in abyss. Ironically now al-Qaeda fighters are fulfilling NATO’s mission in Libya terrorizing local population in a hunt for Gaddafi. Another factor for ‘priority shift’ was the conclusion of a clandestine deal between Taliban and the US envoys on the conditions of the US military presence in Afghanistan (American non-interference in gradual take-over of power in Kabul by Taliban was guaranteed). We can only speculate on other clauses of the deal, but logically it should include the share of drug-trade-originated profits and the US blessing for Talib advance deeper to Central Asia. Objectively now the radical political forces in Central Asia and Arab countries subject to ‘green revolutions’ earlier this year are fully complying with the chaotization agenda of the global elites.

    So for elite strategists ‘Islamic terrorism’ can no longer serve as an effective tool for achieving their global goals. This card is already played off. They needed to create another chimerical doctrine hostile to both their own project and boiling Islamic pot. A neo-fascist movement abundantly stuffed with Christian symbolism would be an ideal option to arrange a big show.

    READ MORE: http://orientalreview.org/2011/07/29/blond-beast-and-the-future-of-terror/

  156. Thanks for that Link Thomas, also thanks for illuminating those who make out/believe they resemble somekind of divine genetic disposition.

    For the umptieth time I have come across this debate and its becoming boring to see these sterotypists wrap themselves in knots.
    Ah well back to the subject shall we after this enlightening interlude. Should we bother to write on Pam Gellers site?
    I looked at it and on reading the comments of gun touting knuckle draggers and zionsists, who are well inflamed with having their queen bee sullied by her own past liabilities, they just don’t like it up them, I have decided that its really not necessarry.

    Unless we can view his carribean off shore accounts and follow the money, a hard task because our radical fundamentalist capitalists have made sure that these havens do not have to answer to tax laws or any other for that matter, a bit like blackbearts treasure island.
    This action smells of P2 and that he got the support of Borghezio, who then retracted his vague support for Breivig days later, is a good lead.
    Was Borghezio told to retract it by his Northern league brethren?

  157. Guardian readers’ editor on the paper’s reporting of the killings in Norway
    .
    Remember the initial reporting that Islamic terrorists were behind the bombing and shooting in Norway?
    .
    Peter Beaumont and his editors are called to account, and the Guardian readers’ editor Chris Elliott doesn’t pull his punches. Er, not exactly.
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/31/open-door-norway-massacre-coverage

  158. Suhayl:
    .
    Sorry I should have been more clear. By S.E.A. I mean South East Asia.
    .
    It’s interesting this talk to indigenous, and what definitions mean to people. In the Australian context I think the scientific definition I spoke of has had a positive effect on racism in Australia. Most Australians understand that they are not indigenous, and it is therefore somewhat hypocritical to get upset about ‘foreigners’ coming here. I would also argue that it has allowed Australians to have a wider concept of what it means to be Australian. Everyone I know in Australia considers a person Australian simply if that person has decided to spend the rest of their life living in Australia. While my friends are definitely on the more liberal end of the spectrum, I think that attitude is generally held by most Australians.
    .
    Where I’m currently living there is a large Scandinavian population of travellers and expats. In almost every respect, the most chilled group of people I have met. Polite, kind and generally good people, I have been shocked at the amazing levels of xenophobia expressed by these same people when it comes to immigrants in Scandinavia. It’s weird, I would say these same people are exemplary travellers in general and show great amounts of respect to all the locals they meet while abroad, but when it comes to people moving to Scandinavia all bets are off. In the Scaninavian context, the elite, the majority are still indigenous, so the same scientific definition of the word ‘indigenous’ can have quite different implications.
    .
    Nevertheless I think denying the scientific definition of the terms adds fuel to the racist fire. It gives racists an easy rhetorical point to complain about why liberals can’t accept simple facts. Kind of live passing laws against holocaust denial. It gives the crazies an easy propaganda victory when they can claim the government is not prepared to argue the case and instead makes it illegal to even discuss the issue. In my opinion nothing hurts David Irving’s case more than when you actually see David Irving make his case, the guy is clearly a fool and more people should see that.
    .
    I agree with what you say about Alfred. A couple of days after the Norway events I posted a link to Breivik’s propaganda video after having already watched it. I nearly added a comment to the effect of ‘This video remind you of any posters philosophy?’, but then thought to myself, nah that’s a low blow I won’t go there. A few days later I come back and read Alfred talking about a ‘genuine (true?) crusader’. I couldn’t believe he had the audacity to post a public comment like that. He has no shame or credibility.
    .
    *phew* that turned into a much longer post than expected.

  159. Thanks for that link to peter’s article Mary, have left my guist, Cheebacows report of Scvandianvians abroad is marked, it is a very European, not just Scandidnavian notion that they manage to behave in forweign climes, but become rabid when others like their own home country.
    Globalisation always favoured large multinational corporations, their regulative frameworks and rights, that of the working populations or multicultural pressures that surround their ideas of global governance.

  160. BTW here is an example of the best of Australian multiculturalism. A white guy, playing a Chinese immigrant, playing an Aborigine. Very funny, playing with stereotypes while at the same time being sensitive and honest.
    youtube.com/watch?v=051noekdjtU
    .
    The same guy playing a private (public for you Brits) school girl but showing a side of Australian racism. Still very funny, but much darker.
    youtube.com/watch?v=cWpan7ZjSI8

  161. Ingo:
    .
    I have experienced similar attitudes from other Europeans. However I have found this attitude to be more common with Scandinavians and also more extreme. I have always assumed that previously people migrated to Scandinavia far less than other parts of Europe, is this wrong? This could explain the relative vehemence of the Scandinavian xenophobia, they are ethnically more homogeneous. But you know, being ethnically pure and isolated isn’t exactly a good recipe for success, just ask the dodo.

  162. Sorry I dropped a thought.

    This could explain the relative vehemence of the Scandinavian xenophobia, they are ethnically more homogeneous and this is more tied into their sense of national identity. However these things can change. Only 50 years ago racism in Australia was so bad they we were famous for it. I think Australia still has that reputation to some degree, but the reality is that in terms of race issues Australia is now unrecognisable from what it once was.

  163. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 11:27 am

    Yeah but Suhayl, Cheeba Cow; if my mother and father were both French, and had moved permanently to Oxfordshire, and I was born in Oxfordshire, and lived in Oxfordshire, and went to school in Oxfordshire, I think I would be native British/English, by definition, wouldn’t I? And the term ‘indigenous’ is quite straightforward: I would be indigenous to the country, and also a native of the country, much as I might prefer to be French. I would, I guess, have dual nationality also: these points are, as Suhayl says, complex.

    With reference to the Australian situation: everyone knows that the British descended with force and imprisoned and tortured the local population; their descendants then proceeded to brutalise, marginalise and discriminate against the Aborigines in the most racist, cruel and vicious fashion possible. The same attitude persists in the current treatment of asylum seekers, held for years in desert prisons with no hope of freedom. And we see that attitude in the Far Right all over the world. How people think and behave is of course far more important than arguing the toss about definitions: I’m just trying to show that the Right’s argument is redundant on every level. They might bring in the parlous treatment of the Aborigines but this is rank hypocrisy, not a debating sword thrust to be avoided. Unless, of course, they are suggesting that all pink Australians be ‘repatriated’: I don’t think they are, you know.

    Guest: yes, I realised this about skin pigmentation all on my own – no need for scientists! It is quite quite obvious that skin pigmentation is simply a response to sunlight or lack of it (though, rather sweetly, in the Just So Stories, Kipling has the previously sandy-coloured Nubian turn himself into ‘the most beautiful blue black’ as a camouflage in order to be able to hunt, since the animals had moved from the sandy desert into the dark forest in attempt to avoid him) What is tragic is the lack of celebration of the different cultures which have sprung up around the world – the Arabic greeting ‘the morning is scented with jasmine’ instead of ‘hello’ for example – because in Arabic countries it so often is. The writings of Rumi, the paintings, the different musical scales. I could go on..

  164. Of course, the Sami people (‘Lapps’) living in nothern Scandinavia (‘Sapmi’) – Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia – would be able to tell us all about the arrogance of some aspects of Scandinavian officialdom over the years. It – this relates to institutionalised problems – belies the general (usually, wrt individuals, true) impression of ‘tolerant Scandinavians’ one gets elsewhere in the world. So, there may be an interesting nexus there.
    .

    If anyone’s interestd, the traditional song/chant of the Sami people is the ‘joik’ (pronounced ‘yoik’), a wordless communing with nature, a little like the Andalaucian ‘cante quejio’ (sorry, can’t put accents on the letters here!). I can’t post a sound link right now, but if you search for ‘Marie Boine’ or ‘Wimme’, you’ll be able to hear some modern joiking. It’s very powerful and reminds one a little of American Indian chants (a la Buffy Saint-Marie) and more obviously of trans-Arctic Shamanism of which Sami culture is really a part. The reindeer an the drum are central. The Vikings et al were seen as sort of crass southerners.
    .

    I once was honoured to be interviewed, live, from Bridgeton, Glasgow on my mobile ‘phone by a radio station based in northern Norway about a play I’d written, based on Sami folk-tales and music for the Theatre Workshop in Edinburgh (‘Saame Sita’), when the interviewer started to sing/chant a joik, live on-air. It was cosmic.
    .

    theatre-workshop.com/events/2003/december/saame_sita.html
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimme_Saari
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_Boine

  165. Technicolour, do go on, please. It’s so enriching and positive. Go ahead and joik!

  166. Furthermore, CheebaCow, if you look at Finns, for example, they do not appear entirely ethnically homogeneous. There are quite a few swarthy Finns, many of whom look a little Saami (‘Lapp’). And I’m not just talking about northern Finland.
    .

    Norway is a sea-faring nation, which means that, as with, say, Orkandians and Shetlanders, many people will have worked abroad, all over the world, in the oil an fishing industries.
    .
    The Kingdom of Sweden was a major player in Europe at one time and indeed, with its larger population/size, etc., Sweden was/is regarded as the regional power. Swedish troops fought in many of the major engagemnets of European history.
    .

    In the late ‘Dark Ages’ and early Middle Ages, The Vikings developed major trade routes with the various Arabic (and thence African) Empires, down through the Volga, Black Sea and so on. Many Russians and Ukrainians are descendants of the Varangians, i.e the Vikings. And we know that the Vikings established settlements in Greenland and North America.
    .

    So it’s not as though Scandinavia has been somehow isolated until recently. And where trade goes, so do genes.

  167. … not to mention the Irish and British connections, the Normans (who went to Sicily, etc.), the Byzantine Empire… and more recently, think of Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam), who is part-Swedish, part-Greek, very obvious Londoner, etc. That’s just one story. These things go both ways and in all directions. Europe generally, and (even) Scandinavia specifically, are simply not as homogenous as might appear at first sight.

  168. Tech:
    .
    I understand your argument in regards to indigenous, I just think you are failing to acknowledge the real scientific meaning the term also has. Cane Toads can be found all over Australia, have been there for countless generations yet they are not an indigenous animal of Australia. I’m Australian, but because I am not indigenous to Australia I burn in the sun much more easily that indigenous Australians.
    .
    I am not trying to downplay what happened the Australia’s Aborigines, it was almost a complete genocide. So effective that today Aborigines are almost unseen in the large cities. However the situation in Australia now is incomparable to what it was in the past. 60 years ago it was considered multicultural for an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scot to sit around the table together. Now when I take the train into the city white faces are often the minority. Inter-racial relationships used to be scandalous, now no one bats an eye. Per head of population Australia has 3 times the net migration of the UK, over twice as many as the US, but I would argue there is less racial tension in Australia than the US or UK. Like I said before, Australia still has it’s issues, but to compare what happened to the Aborigines with the political and social climate of today or with the asylum seekers issue, you are severely downplaying the significant steps taken by Australian society as a whole.
    .
    BTW you know why the refugee prisons are in the desert and on remote islands? It’s because people protested against them too much and repeatedly helped refugees escape and offered them shelter. The government was forced to move them into places where protesters literally couldn’t get to.

  169. Suhayl:
    .
    I am aware that Scandinavia wasn’t completely isolated. I was just speaking in relative terms. Am I wrong in thinking that relative to much of western Europe, Scandinavia is more isolated? I’ll admit on this issue my thinking is very simple, Scandinavia is cold and less attractive to migrants and secondly I find it much easier to spot a Swede in a crowd than perhaps a Brit or Spaniard.

  170. de Quincy's Ghost

    1 Aug, 2011 - 1:03 pm

    “60 years ago it was considered multicultural for an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scot to sit around the table together”
    .
    These days the barman just says “Is this some kind of joke ?”

  171. ‘All that said, I am going against the grain and agreeing with Oldmarks definition of indigenous’ – thanks for that CheebaCow

    ‘Living in S.E.A I have seen a lot of issues surrounding skin colour and the desire to be light skinned. I’m no expert on the matter, but my impressions are that the desire to have light skin over here is not really connected to western influence’

    Your impressions are absolutely correct Cheeba. The mongol invasions that followed in the wake of Ghengis Khan had a profound effect on the ethnography of most of Eurasia. Most historically literate Europeans (ie not the likes of Technicolour) know of the Golden Horde, their occupation for more than 2 centuries of the area now comprising Belarus, Ukraine & eastern Poland, and the genetic legacy left by this event. In your part of the world, the mongol invasions had the effect of shifting what now comprises the Thai & Lao peoples south and east of the Golden Triangle, away from their original homeland in the eastern foothills of the Himalaya, and into SE Asia & Indo China. There they encountered black skinned Australoids (probably very similar to the present day Andaman Islanders) who were no match for them militarily or culturally, and who were largely slaughtered en masse. Only a few such tribes remain on the SE Asian mainland, as a pathetic ethnic remnant, in the forests close to the Thai/Malasia border.

    The distant, collective memory of this event undoubtedly affects present day attitudes in SE Asia to skin colour (the wealth & success of the Chinese minority there, who are generally lighter skinned that the now indigenous Malays, Thais & especially Khmers, is also, of course, a factor).

    ‘Where I’m currently living there is a large Scandinavian population of travellers and expats.

    Sounds like Phuket or Pattaya ? If it is,Cheeba, it is possible you may have shared a beer with Breivik’s step father, who, like thousands of his fellow copuntrymen, winters there each year- a fact Breivik recounts in his rambling ‘manifesto’ for European UDI.

  172. ‘So it’s not as though Scandinavia has been somehow isolated until recently. And where trade goes, so do genes.’

    Agreed Suhayl, but in the case of seafarers the genes are exported, not imported, a pretty basic distiction. How many of these Vikings returned home from their wanderings with a local wife a la Pocahontas ? Very few, I would think.

  173. Wayne – right on. But I see you have been politely ignored, so far. An interesting dynamic as Suhayl would say ;)
    .
    These ideological debates are rather tedious, with definitions of words being disputed violently whilst as you say, there are white elephants in the room that do not fit with either ideology and so they remain un-discussible.
    .
    These would-be philosopher-kings like to imagine that the truth with regard to immigration is a universal constant, independent of the people. To them, politics is not about preferences, it is about politically correct truths that can be arrived at by experts, with expert knowledge. They dare not suggest that the people should be asked what they want, because they fear that the people would disagree with their cherished beliefs. No, they say, we cannot allow this because the people cannot be trusted not to be racist, or hypocritical, or selfish.
    .
    There has been enough empirical research to establish that feeling in control of one’s living environment is a primary pre-requisite to feeling happy with one’s life. Conversely, discontent is universally the result of centralised unaccountable politics, be it in Norway, Egypt, Libya, the UK etc. Nobody asked the Norwegian people – how much immigration and how fast is OK? When one is told what to do and what to believe, the inevitable resentment can be rationalised in different ways. The more thoughtful of us will realise that the source of the resentment is the frustration of not being in control. Others will build up irrational bias against immigrants and will find ‘facts’ in support of such bias, ignoring contrary evidence.
    .
    The immigration-is-bad ideologues are hopeful that the people would continue to express anti-immigration voting patterns if the questions were put to vote directly. They do not realise that a large part of the anti-immigrant feeling is born of frustration of not being asked. But perhaps they do not care anyway, imagining that this is their only realistic chance of some sort of success. The immigration-is-great proponents are pushed into authoritarianism by their distrust of the people. It is an embarrassing admission for them so they prefer not to talk about it.
    .
    But both sides are fundamentally mistaken about human nature. People are generous, they are magnanimous, they understand justice intuitively. No society is completely homogenous and people for the most part can identify with minorities and sympathise. If only the Norwegian people had been asked, perhaps murderous nuts would not have found the negative public sentiment to feed on.

  174. I prefer to take John Pilger’s view on Australia. He has written extensively on the situation. This is his latest.
    .
    http://www.johnpilger.com/articles/the-invasion-of-australia-official-at-last
    .
    btw Australia is a Zionist stronghold as you will see if you visit the Australians for Palestine website.

  175. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 2:02 pm

    Evgueni: I would propound a third theory: ‘immigration’ *is*. One can of course try and live in a fortress: otherwise, as Suhayl points out, people have always moved. It is also part of human nature. I asked a BNP man I talked to, who had been railing against ‘them’ coming over here (in much the way that Wayne describes) whether he had never lived or worked abroad. It turned out, after a pause, that he had, in Europe and Australia, and thoroughly enjoyed it: far more than living in the UK in fact (part of his problem was the rotten life someone on low wages with a family in a council block leads here). His eyes, afterwards, were marginally less fanatical than before.

    Asking questions is therefore good. ‘Asking’ the Norwegians would also be good, but there is so much propaganda and untruth directed at the general population these days that you might have to ask several questions, and give several answers, in order to arrive at any real conclusion. Think of the people who have swallowed the ‘Oslo is fifty percent Muslim’ canard. Their response to your question would, I predict, often be very different to their response if they knew the facts. To suggest anything else, while I share your view of untrammeled human nature, is, I think, naive. Even with otherwise decent people who have swallowed the lies and propaganda against gypsies here, it takes a good fifteen minutes of fact sharing before they come out from behind their artificially generated barricade of fear (and/or alchohol. Without that, as far as they are concerned, the gypsies are ‘different’, ‘not like us’ and, in essence, can lump it.

    CheebaCow, I’m sorry, but I find an attempted parallel between cane toads and people somewhat stupid. Cane toads do not work, pay taxes, or send children to school and cannot speak up for themselves (though they have certainly been made to suffer). Otherwise, I tan very easily; would I be ‘more Australian’ than you if I were born there?

  176. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 2:13 pm

    ‘OldMark’ trying to slip it in again (my emphasis): “There they encountered black skinned Australoids (probably very similar to the present day Andaman Islanders) who were no match for them militarily or *culturally*, and who were largely slaughtered en masse”

    You’re a tryer, aren’t you?

    By the way Evgueni: “feeling in control of one’s living environment is a primary pre-requisite to feeling happy with one’s life.”. I’d settle for not being bombed, these days, myself. Who the hell is in control of who becomes their neighbour, anyway? Who are these sad anals?

  177. Old Mark:
    .
    “Sounds like Phuket or Pattaya”
    .
    Nope, those places definitely ain’t my scene. Never been to either.

  178. “perhaps murderous nuts would not have found the negative public sentiment to feed on.” Evgueni.
    .
    No. Murderous nuts will always find reasons for acting as murderous nuts and those, like allegedly Geller, Spencer, etc., who will fuel their fantasies and their actions.
    .
    Slovakia: No Jews for 70 years. Jewish gravestones still get desecrated with Swastikas. Many Roma, who’ve been there for centuries and who have married inot the pop. but look visibly different, yet still widespread discrimination. Neither of these acts has anyhting to do with immigration. One of the worst insults there is to say “You’ve got Gypsy blood”.
    .
    The Holocaust had nothing to do with immigration.
    .
    It’s just an excuse for xenophobia. Now they’re trying to divert the focus of criticism. Apologia.
    .
    It’s got nothing to do with political correctness. What we are talking about is useful diversionary activity for those warmongers; divide-and-rule and a tradition in Europe of systemic xenophobia. We are talking about taregtting one community – Muslim – that is the group all of the Fra Right agitators have in thir sights – they’re not too worried about the Poles, etc., the white immkigrants. In other words, same old, same old.

  179. We all remember the contradictary group of countries banded together as a ‘coalition of the willing’ who supported, militarily or verbally, the 2003 invasion of Iraq and subsequent military presence in post-invasion Iraq. This ‘coalition of idiots’ was an attempt to provide legal strength to the strike in the absence of a new UNSC resolution but, within the framework of the ‘war on terror, a concept introduced by Israel after the 2001 terrorist attacks on American soil.
    .
    Having erased Pakistan’s guardianship of Bin Laden and with Drone bases in Afghanistan and boots in Iraq, America has reshuffled the war room plotting table and gathered the required funding (after the necessary show of infighting) to strike Iran and in what will be called an endevour to moderate extremist Islam. Like the Iraq strike an attempt to arrogate Iran’s nuclear infrastructure requires world support. However another false-flag using Muslim patsies is too risky, too obvious and now lacks support from Pakistan’s ISI, essential to duplicate the successes of 9/11 and 7/7.
    .
    A new approach I think takes advantage of the tie-up between fascists and far-right racists in Europe and senior Israeli politicians. I recognised this new propaganda angle when Israeli Deputy Minister Ayoob Kara broke bread with German/Swedish millionaire neo Patrik Brinkman just a few weeks before the mass murder of socialist youth by anti-Muslim racist, Anders Breivik.
    Brinkmann, who is trying to establish a far-right anti-Islamic party in Germany claims he is not an anti-Semite, however his previous close contacts with the German neo-Nazi party (NPD) and his past membership in another neo-Nazi party raise questions regarding his ideology.
    .
    Ha’aretz 29th July 2011 reminds us in an article named, ‘Unholy Alliances’ that Israeli right-wingers have applauded Breivik. Hatred of Islam is their main guiding principle and that also flows through the veins of Paul Ray, founder of EDL and millionaire funder Alan Lake. This extrordinary scheme to acheive concensus for a strike is known to the British intelligence services under pressure to watch, wait and do nothing. I suspect in the months ahead propaganda that Sharia law will creep into Europe will intensify in an attempt to create an anti-Islamic European front to justify attacking Iran or in EDL’s style, launch another crusade against a new-age Saladin.

  180. Furthermore, Evgueni, your paragrapha, apart from coming across as (uncharacteristically) a little patronising, also seems to suggest that there is an equivalence b/w those of the Far Right who are basically racist and those who criticise them. Look, the debate about immigration has raged for 60 yars constantly in the media and on the streets in the UK and in other parts of Europe. It is not that it hasn’t had room for public discourse. Quite the opposite, It has usually been used as a smokescreen for unpopular govts to diver attention from their own failings and other policies an as a means of divide-and-rule.

  181. Wayne:
    .
    The point about Norwegian men protecting their lovely womenfolk from outside attention made me smile. I suspect many Norwegian men entertain quiet yearnings for dark sensual Spanish women. So it goes.
    .
    I was startled by your suggestion that the Norwegian Labour Party “bought votes with immigrants so they cannot be removed”. How so? Do non-naturalized immigrants have the vote in Norway? Oslo may well be more “multi-cultural” than it was but that’s as likely to be a consequence of Norway’s large and growing significance as a global economic player. You’ll find that the capital cities of major countries are almost always pretty cosmopolitan. It usually becomes seen to be a good thing. It livens the place up a bit.
    .
    Your suggestion that no-one in Europe can speak up against immigration for fear of being labelled a racist is a ridiculous argument. People voice concerns about immigration all the time, including the prime minister.
    .
    Being labelled a racist or fascist is liable to happen whenever you get involved in political debates. Many on this blog for instance have been called “anti-semitic” for discussing Israel and its apologists in robust terms, but hey, who cares? It just comes with the territory.
    .
    Speaking of Israel, I see there are big demonstrations in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and elsewhere against the government. I wonder if Netanyahu will see this as a good time to strike Iran. Nothing like a good war to unite the country.

  182. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 2:47 pm

    Suhayl: “No. Murderous nuts will always find reasons for acting as murderous nuts”

    yep. A psycho is a psycho. Still doesn’t explain the sheer evil of people who prod and poke them with their nasty little sticks, though. I often wonder if the pinky prawn-like extremists are subliminally moved by the knowledge that they have, effectively, been cast out of the Garden of Eden; that adaptation to Northern climes has meant they can no longer lie on a beach and sip coconut milk and eat mangoes without factor 3000, and then only for a couple of weeks before they have to return to the lands of mist and drizzle. The Duc de La Rochfoucauld described jealousy as the most destructive of emotions?

    Still, the vast majority of pinky prawny people have got over it, and often adapt quite well to warmer parts, rather quickly, if they allow themselves (Icelandic horses can entirely change their coats in the space of three years to cope with different temperatures). I suppose a very few people just enjoy their awful sense of inadequacy by playing on the fear of inadequacy of others. Often nothing an addict likes better than seeing someone else get addicted.

  183. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 2:50 pm

    MJ: “I suspect many Norwegian men entertain quiet yearnings for dark sensual Spanish women”. A friend of mine from Sweden has just married a lovely woman from Brazil :)

  184. Technicolour,
    perhaps you do not realise the inevitable conclusion to your logic, or perhaps you prefer to ignore it because it is unpalatable. Your logic is authoritarian, because you impose a limit to what can be decided democratically. How people would vote today on immigration, given the build-up of negative feeling following decades of not being asked, is a moot point. Perhaps you imagine that full democracy differs from the castrated democracies of the NATO members in one respect only – who gets to vote on political issues. That is simplistic and incorrect – protracted public debates take place before ballot days and rules are enforced with regard to balanced media coverage and disclosure of sponsorship. Decisions that are arrived at in a full democracy are reversible by definition if the public sentiment is persuaded the other way in future. This has a calming effects on political discourse.
    .
    That you cannot empathise with people who wish to feel that their opinions on immigration matter, is a weak argument indeed. People are different, many are not like you in one way or another – this does not make their preferences any more or less valid than yours.
    .
    We do not need to engage in a hypothetical discussion btw. We can compare and contrast the track record of Switzerland where full democracy has been practiced at the state level for over 100 years, with the track record of the NATO ‘democracies’.

  185. Techni:
    .
    “I’m sorry, but I find an attempted parallel between cane toads and people somewhat stupid. Cane toads do not work, pay taxes, or send children to school and cannot speak up for themselves (though they have certainly been made to suffer).”
    .
    I’m not comparing people to Cane toads, if I were, I would be calling myself a Cane toad. I’m just saying that ‘indigenous’ has a specific meaning when categorising biology. Australia has incredibly strict controls on the importation of non-indigenous plant and animal life. Protecting indigenous plants and animals is a big environmental concern in Australia, all greenies use the term as I do. No animal or plant indigenous or non-indigenous pays taxes or sends their kids to school that I’m aware of.
    .
    Mary:
    .
    I’m a big fan of Pilger, in fact it was some of his earlier books that really started my political interest. I agree with much of the article, but what the Australian left always fails to address is how completely smashed the Aboriginal culture has been and the effects of a limbo like existence they face. Isolated communities live in semi permanent residences which provide all the negative aspects of traditional and modern lifestyles and non of the positives of either. These communities are fundamentally broken and I haven’t really heard any credible solutions from either side of the political spectrum.
    .
    To view Australia largely through the lens of the above issue greatly distorts Australian culture however. The shockingly sad reality is the Aboriginal population is so small and removed from the rest of the Australian population that it is not reflective of the average Australian experience. What the Aborigines have to deal with is not at all a similar experience to what any other minority ethnic group has to face. I would say the Aboriginal issue speaks more to the shocking past than it does to modern day Australia. Unfortunately when you destroy a peoples culture on every level, wipe out the majority of the population and steal their kids and land it takes more than 40 years to recover, especially when so isolated from the rest of the population.
    .
    Not sure of the connection with Zionists?

  186. Suhayl,
    ‘propaganda’ – please explain.
    .
    No I do not think there is an equivalence between the Far Right and their critics on this blog. Where did you get this idea from? I dislike the motives of the Far Right, but find it hard to argue against their chosen method if they propose to achieve their aims by more genuine democracy (I think I have good reasons to believe that they will not succeed). I approve of the liberal intentions of the Far Right’s critics but you know that the road to hell is paved with them (good intentions). So it all depends on how these intentions are implemented – whether they would be rammed down my throat even if I disagreed. I had a taste of the results of an ideology that was based on some rather good intentions, and so I am rather sensitive when things are left unquestioned because they do not fit with someone’s system of beliefs.
    .
    I don’t believe in this ‘you are either with us or against us’ stuff.

  187. ‘You’re a tryer, aren’t you?’ – absolutely Techie, as you’ve discovered.

    ‘I often wonder if the pinky prawn-like extremists are subliminally moved by the knowledge that they have, effectively, been cast out of the Garden of Eden; that adaptation to Northern climes has meant they can no longer lie on a beach and sip coconut milk and eat mangoes without factor 3000, and then only for a couple of weeks before they have to return to the lands of mist and drizzle. The Duc de La Rochfoucauld described jealousy as the most destructive of emotions?

    Still, the vast majority of pinky prawny people have got over it, and often adapt quite well to warmer parts’

    Are you, before holidaying in warmer climes, ‘pinkie-prawn’ yourself Techie ? The bit above which I’ve just excerpted certainly reeks of projection & self-hatred.

    ‘Ha’aretz 29th July 2011 reminds us in an article named, ‘Unholy Alliances’ that Israeli right-wingers have applauded Breivik.’

    Mark G; yes, a ‘deadly alliance’- sad but true. Israel had Baruch Goldstein in 1994, whose MO & political trajectory was very similar to Breivik’s- although of course Goldstein did not survive after executing his own murderous assault. As a result his grave has become a rallying point for Israeli extremists.

  188. ‘Nope, those places definitely ain’t my scene.’

    Agreed, Cheeba. The sun, sea & sex formula pioneered in places like Patong & Kuta beach is unfortunately getting more prevalent. Ko Chang in 2000 had only dirt roads & was paradise compared to when I visited again 4 years later, when a coast road encircled much of the island.

  189. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 3:57 pm

    Evgueni: “Your logic is authoritarian, because you impose a limit to what can be decided democratically”

    How on earth can you draw that conclusion? I have imposed no limit: instead I suggested that a dialogue, with facts, is often necessary to get at people’s real opinions after years of propaganda, instead of a question demanding ‘yes’ or ‘no’ in response. In what way is that ‘authoritarian’? In fact it seems to be what you’re saying here:
    “protracted public debates take place before ballot days and rules are enforced with regard to balanced media coverage and disclosure of sponsorship.”

    I’d say fine to that, being largely in favour of government by referenda – depending on who’s making the rules and enforcing them. Who do you suggest? You seem to feel that the Far Right might be genuine in their desire for what you see as genuine democracy – what makes you think this? Their scrupulousness when informing/dealing with the public, including its ‘minority’ groups?

    It also depends on who is framing the question and what the question is. What do you suggest?

    “That you cannot empathise with people who wish to feel that their opinions on immigration matter, is a weak argument indeed” – indeed, it is no argument at all. In fact, on the contrary, I sympathise greatly with people who have been systematically lied to (there is ‘genocide’ in Leicester; Oslo is ‘fifty percent’ Muslim) and whose fears have been systematically played on by an extremist press.

    CheebaCow: yes, indeed, environmentalists are at great pains to protect the status quo. Here we have been ‘invaded’ by the evil French ladybird. It looks not very different to the normal British ladybird, it just smells of garlic and attacks our women…

  190. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 3:59 pm

    ‘OldMark’: I love pinky-prawn like people. Its the liars and extremists I don’t have time for.

  191. Suhayl,
    I found the latter part of your post where you mention holocaust, gypsies and jews in Slovakia, apologia rather cryptic. Perhaps, you are right and Breivik would still have happened even if Norway had an advanced form of democracy. However what I suggest is that if that were the case (Norway advanced democracy), there would have been far less of the feelings of frustration in the population, which would have resulted in fewer people looking to rationalise this frustration and arriving at right wing anti-immigration views. This surely could have had a moderating effect on someone like Breivik, you cannot say categorically that it couldn’t.

  192. Evgueni, thanks. The word I used was ‘paragraph’, but I made a silly typo at the end of the word, so it appeared as ‘paragrapha’, which I think possibly you may have read as ‘propaganda’. Is that what you’re referring to?
    .
    Sorry, I didn’t mean to come across negatively with you.
    .
    Perhaps part of my response to these people who seem obessed with mitochondria and so on is because I’ve heard people banging on about the same things wrt different groups since around 1967, creating scapegoats, etc. in the UK, effective diversions, as I said, for ruling elites, a way to divide ordinary people, etc. and am aware of the rightwing media stirring it up accordingly.
    .
    I would suggest that it is these ideologies that are rammed down our throats.

    People like Geller and Spencer allegedly ave been feeding the media lies or distortions and then these lies and distortions are planted as permanent fixtures in public consciousness. These are the ideologies and the systems of which I am wary. It is their propaganda which is unremitting and which tends at any one time to be directed at a specific, easily-targettable minority group. I’m sad to say that it they who have the power and the unflinching ideology, an ideology which is, for various reasons, somewhat convenient to the ruling elites.

  193. How, cryptic, Evgueni? I am saying that these examples would suggest that such attitudes are not necessarily linked in any way to matters of immigration. In what way is that cryptic?

  194. I should say, perhaps, that I have relatives in Slovakia, who are fab; I wasn’t ‘getting at’ East Europeans in any way…

  195. Anonymous

  196. Anonymous

  197. Anonymous

  198. Anonymous

  199. Anonymous

  200. Anonymous

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. ‘Best of’ on Breivik | Captain Jul's Mission Log
  2. Craig Murray » Blog Archive » Denying and Suppressing the Truth
  3. Obama’s Whistleblower War Suffers Two Defeats | PEOPLEUNLIKEUS
  4. BlackPrideNetwork » Blog Archive » Obama’s Whistleblower War Suffers Two Defeats
  5. Obama’s whistleblower war suffers two defeats | A New Worlds in Birth
  6. If It Walks Like a Duck… | noodleepoodlee

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted by Expathos