Policing Criminality

by craig on August 9, 2011 1:47 pm in Uncategorized

I don’t think that I have seen anything like the widespread criminality sweeping England, in my lifetime. It may happen in LA or the Paris bainlieus, but not England. Watching it from the sanity of Scotland enhances the feeling of it happening somewhere I don’t know.

It is necessary to be plain about one thing. This is not, in any sense, a legitimate political protest. Nor is it a revolt of the deprived, homeless and starving. Few of those arrested are coming to the attention of the police for a first time. What is happening is that the burgeoning criminal underclass is realising that it is now large enough to defy society if it can concentrate its forces quickly in specific localities.

This is not a race issue. This is the social mileu from which Jade Goody, Amy Winehouse and Wayne Rooney (all of whom have had close associations with people imprisoned for violence) emerged just as much as it is gangs of Somalis and Nigerians – and it is indeed that too. It is a product of a contemptible urban sub-culture driven by a detestation of education and an avid materialism. That its devotees can argue that the corrupt bankers and politicians are morally no better is a perfectly valid point, but no justification.

They are not destroying the homes and livelihoods of politicians and bankers, but of ordinary decent people.

The policing does raise vital questions. The Met has 30,000 officers. Tonight it will have 16,000 out on the street, including reinforcement from elsewhere. Why on earth did it only have 6,000 out last night across the whole of London, when everyone knew what would happen? And why then did they simply watch looters? Senior officers had decreed that the “containment” tactics used to control political demonstrations should be used here. What arrant nonsense. You don’t just cordon off areas in which looters are allowed to loot.

There are root problems in society which have caused this, but the immediate cause is impunity. The criminally minded witnessed that they could loot what they wanted, while the police would merely stand and watch. As a result, more and more joined in and the situation has gone from bad to worse. One thing which has been under-reported is the amount of personal violence that has been used, with people mugged in the streets, cab and bus drivers attacked and people stoned as they ran from burning flats.

I have no problem at all with calling for the deployment of baton rounds, tear gas and water cannon. If nobody has been burnt to death so far, it is a miracle. If the odd looter gets killed by the police by accident by a baton round, I would view that as very sad but something they brought upon themselves. I would not bring in the army at the moment, but the force of society should be brought to bear by the immediate enlistment of any volunteer with no criminal record as a temporary special constable. They should look to enlist tens of thousands.

The resources of civilisation are not exhausted.

200 Comments

  1. Azra

    9 Aug, 2011 - 1:56 pm

    Well you heard what that Stupid woman T May said ” we do not policw with water cannon in this Braintain”! Let’s offer them drinks and negotiate with them..
    Anyhow, it was used in Northen Irland, so why not here??

  2. Azra

    9 Aug, 2011 - 1:57 pm

    sory Police with Water …

  3. Azra

    9 Aug, 2011 - 1:57 pm

    Must be my anger, my typos are getting gradually worse.

  4. Kit Green

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:02 pm

    And why then did they simply watch looters?

    Am I too cynical when thinking that there is now going to be a push to preserve or increase budgets, to ensure adequate manpower?

  5. kathz

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:09 pm

    It seems to me that one thing we need to learn is why people riot and what it takes to stop them from doing this. If Dave Cameron, Boris Johnson and George Osborne were to reflect honestly on their Bullingdon Club experience – and that of their friends – they might just have something useful to say. This isn’t political point-scoring but a serious suggestion. The Bullingdon Club has a reputation for destructiveness and its members have caused plenty of fear and distress. If none of the three I’ve mentioned took part in the Bullingdon’s planned expeditions of drunkenness and destructions, they could teach others how to resist peer pressure. And if they were once involved in its terrifying riotous behaviour, perhaps they could explain what led them to give up such activities.

    Incidentally, the Bullingdon Club’s practices suggest that the activities of rioters are more to do with the exercise of power than anything else. I heard Guardian journalist Paul Lewis (on TV in the early hours) say in tones which suggested puzzled amazement that what the rioters demonstrated more than anything else was an empowerment (he sounded bewildered by the word) albeit an empowerment that would not last. I think that a longer-term analysis which is needed for a longer-term solution would do well to take this into account.

    I’m not going to go on about how bad it is or how tragic – please take for granted that I am worried about many people I know (and people I don’t know) as I assume you and various commentators are. I’m now planning to head out briefly into the nearest area that had a riot because I think the presence of non-rioters going about their lives in an everyday manner is needed.

  6. Jaded.

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:11 pm

    Does anyone else think this story of a police bullet being lodged in a police radio is complete fantasy? Well, in the sense that it happened accidentally.

  7. Alex

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:16 pm

    I would caution greatly against employing the army, or water cannon. Public sympathy is fickle, and the riots to come would be infused with a far greater importance than what is, for the moment, criminal and opportunistic materialism.

    A time for cool heads. Those who don’t have them are easily spotted right now. They’re the ones no-one should ever vote for again.

    However, to dismiss this phenomenon as *purely* criminal is somewhat naive. We live in a country where the last government showed no respect for international law and blitzed the population of a sovereign state with heavy artillery. We have a media which shows respect for neither decency or the inland revenue. And we now have a government whose Conservative members wants to cut taxes for the bonus wallahs of Canary Wharf while simultaneously employing private companies to target the pitiful benefits given to the seriously disabled and chronically ill. Meanwhile the political elite were last year hoisted by their own mucky snouts in the expenses trough. If those in charge are incapable of showing society any respect, surely they are hypocritical in the extreme not to expect the most disenfranchised, uneducated and febrile strands of society to behave like this?

    The UK Government should take a long hard look at itself in the wake of recent events. They’re largely responsible after all.

  8. Old Trot

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:24 pm

    This really is about more than common-or-garden criminality. There is a massive amount of anger, frustration and outright hatred of the Police. The nature of the riots is complex, as are the people taking part, and the answers are not simple, not simplistic. One thing is certain; dealing with the palpable hatred of the police will not be answered by strong-arming, merely strengthen and exacerbate the problem.

    Similarly the enlistment of specials as described would be a field-day for EDL thugs, who have already been calling for anti-rioter action. Frankly the thought of uniformed EDL on the streets scares me far more than the riots. Have you been listening to your inner Jeremy Clarkson or something?

  9. Alf

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:33 pm

    Respected economic commentators have said for years that the consequences of the bursting of the mother of all economic bubbles, the hyper-mega-credit card debt of western rampant consumerism, would be widespread rioting. Now, coinciding with the beginning of the fallout of collapsing economies, we see widespread rioting and politicians of all stripes and anybody with a mouth for hire are falling over each other to say that it has nothing to do with the economy!

    Get Real!

    As one economic repeatedly has said, ‘when people lose everything, they lose it!’

    Do you think these youths would have been up all night rioting if they had to get up for work?

    I am not in any way condoning the violence and destruction, but if you genuinely want to fix the situation, there is no point is looking the other way when the reality invades your comfort zone.

    I moved out of an English city and into a remote part of Scotland almost two years ago precisely because I expected this to happen. I’m not a politician, an economist, a sociologist or an expert of any kind with regard to what we are seeing but if I could feel the pulse of a population being marketed into oblivion because there was no way of stopping the raging appetite for profit and growth in a finite space, and so could many other lay folk, why the hell could those who are paid handsomely for their expertise not see the consequences of the idiocy of infinite growth?

    I suspect the answer to that question is that they were doing too well out of it to want to say anything.

    Well, nobody took any notice of the likes of Gerald Celente and I doubt anybody will take any notice now. But the foreseeable future is bleak. Keep in mind that supermarkets only stock about three days worth of food. Don’t wait until people are panic buying, get a good supply of non-perishable food and an independent means of cooking it.

    Do you really believe that the global economy is too big to fail?

  10. wendy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:33 pm

    “Similarly the enlistment of specials as described would be a field-day for EDL thugs, who have already been calling for anti-rioter action. Frankly the thought of uniformed EDL on the streets scares me far more than the riots. ”
    .
    lets not forget that the edl (combat18 et al) have been seeking a response from the muslim community to their provocations for the last 2 or so years (they are upping the stakes with attacks on mosques), this mixed with media demonisation and to consider camerons berlin speech (lets not forget former communities sec. hazel blears whilst in office she almost encourage edl to riot claiming a hot summer of violence) .. this was not the civil unrest they were expecting.
    .
    neither did they expect breivik.

  11. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:38 pm

    I wish I were in a position to say that I blame them.
    .
    Our whole civilised culture screams at them daily, hourly, that success is measured in what you consume.
    .
    If you’ve no money, job nor prospects, what are you to do.
    .
    They’ve chosen to rob and steal, often with menacing violence.
    .
    Our civilisation was based on such a choice.
    .
    There was a time, from WWII until Thatcher, when the political consenus across the board understood that excluding people would be bad for society as a whole.
    .
    Many are now beginning, just beginning mind, to see just how bad that can be.
    .
    Once they realised just how easy robbery by steaming could be, it was only a matter of time before they ratcheted it up a notch.

  12. JimmyGiro

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:38 pm

    The chickens are coming home to roost. I predicted the consequence of BBC feminist propaganda back in October 2008:
    .
    http://jimmygiro.blogspot.com/2008/10/hang-bbc.html
    .
    “A community is held together by the nuances of decency, the social norms that help us identify with the sense of right and wrong we all share. Divisive propaganda, that splits society into saints and sinners, works upon those nuances, undermining cohesion and morale in the process. The lowering of morale would typically be the prime aim of an enemy to aid invasion; indeed, Lord Haw-Haw was hung for less. When contentious factions are mischievously rewritten into the identity of a community, then the social instinct will retract toward the intimate and familiar. We will see the formation of cliques and gangs in reaction to the perceived threat of the greater community; and those that hold the male pariah in contempt, will retract further into the insularity of the single parent home.”
    .
    It’s what you get when you disenfranchise boys at school; they don’t disappear, they form their own society, the chavs. And when society blames them for existing, treating them as enemy, they become enemy to society in natural reflexive response.

  13. Osama bin Laden

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:43 pm

    I completely agree with your blog, JimmyGiro. Hang all those who wantonly promote homosexuality!

  14. wendy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:45 pm

    “I moved out of an English city and into a remote part of Scotland almost two years ago precisely because I expected this to happen.”
    .
    .
    appears more have sought refuge in france, spain, italy for when it gets difficult here .. so the wealthy like our politicians can do business from afar (we’ve been told by both sky and the bbc). liam fox appears to be running the libyan war from spain (daily mail), and cameron, boris and may have all returned to compare their sun tans. before undoubtedly seeking refuge elsewhere again.
    .
    blair left a legacy of laws that were enacted by 2008 that prepares the way for some heavy handed rule in the uk , so its not unreasonable that this civil unrest was foreseen if not created by politicians via the financial/economic management in favour of transferring wealth from the not so wealthy to the very wealthy.
    .

  15. Matt

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:49 pm

    ” That its devotees can argue that the corrupt bankers and politicians are morally no better is a perfectly valid point, but no justification”

    But could it be a reason? Expecting moral behaviour in this situation is like asking the fox to fill out an application form for some of your chickens. Avid materialism is the stuff of society, we are constantly assailed by advertising offering a way of life just out of reach. The sickness is in a culture which elevates materialism beyond sharing.

  16. angrysoba

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:53 pm

    Good post Mr Murray, I agree with most of it. Although I think “Jane Goody” was actually “Jade”. You might be confusing her with Jane Goodall.
    .
    I see Jimmy Giro is another example of the confirmation bias I was talking about on the other thread. For Jimmy Giro this is just another example of how feminism has destroyed the world. Funny bloke that Jimmy Giro if you know what I mean.

  17. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:54 pm

    Guildford High Street, a temple to consumerism in the 20th and 21st centuries (shoes, phones, clothes, furniture, cosmetics, jewellery, banks and building societies), was a place in which to riot in the 19th century.
    .
    http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/bonfire-night/features/the-guildford-guy-riots
    .
    Mayor Jacob brought in the Lancers and introduced more police with cutlasses to restore calm. A man after some of the ConDems’ hearts.
    Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

  18. wendy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:55 pm

    of course these people had no real grievance.
    .
    i love the media blaming the blackberry … nothing to do with poor half hearted policing , politicians sunning themselves whilst the country is going down the gutter .. a £250 million in a war against libya an £18 billion in afghanistan … a £100 billion in tax avoidance/evasion , the rich income rise by 18% last year as the poor have an effective 10% tax increase — and the bankers walk away with subsidies and bonuses all nicely put away in the shadow banking system .. whilst boris asks the question that demands the lowering of the 50% tax threshold .. and camerons dream of the big society.
    .
    well at least cameron got his wish.
    .
    and the govt gets its wish to monitor all forms of encrypted communication.
    .
    and the police well they can continue with their heavy handed targeting of muslims, blacks encouraged by government directives and media demonisations.

  19. Alf

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:55 pm

    I don’t think any economy in Europe will come out particularly well.Nor Northern Americas or parts of Asia.

    It’s about attaining some means of self sufficiency and being somewhere away from urban areas.

    Many forecasters are advising pulling out of investments – not that I have ever had any – but the markets are already in decline. I’ve been keeping an eye on eBay’s shares for completely different reasons and it has been going downhill for two weeks. If folk start ditching shares for hard cash or PMs and SPMs, we will see a total collapse.

    We are living in interesting times :-(

  20. angrysoba

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:57 pm

    Avid materialism is the stuff of society, we are constantly assailed by advertising offering a way of life just out of reach.
    .
    Let’s get this right. Most of the time we see advertising offering a way of life completely within reach: “mmm Chicken McNuggets!”, “Hobnobs!”, “Let’s have some Coca Cola!”. In fact, the advertisers would probably be very bad at their job if they were always appealing to a target market that couldn’t afford their products. You’ll have to re-think your particular brand of right-on theorising I’m afraid.

  21. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:57 pm

    Bet Boris wishes he had stayed in British Columbia.
    1448: One resident demanded of Mr Johnson: “What are you going to do tonight.” Another woman, stuck in her hairdressing salon overnight, asked “Where were the police”.
    1446: Mr Johnson – who flew back early from his summer holidays – faced an angry reaction from people who complained that last night’s police was far from adequate.
    1444: Mr Johnson adds: “I just want to say to the people that instigated the riots, to those who have been robbing and stealing that they will be caught, they will be apprehended and they will face punishments that they will bitterly regret.”
    1444: London Mayor Boris Johnson thanks volunteers in Clapham Junction for cleaning up the damage, saying their work represents “the spirit of London”. He says he is very sorry for the loss and damage business openers have suffered.

  22. JimmyGiro

    9 Aug, 2011 - 2:59 pm

    @Angrysoba,
    .
    It was the intention of Marxist-Feminism to change society; they have succeeded via the schools, and the BBC.
    .
    Yes, I’m suffering from confirmation bias, because those aims of feminism are being confirmed!

  23. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:00 pm

    Oh dearie, dearie, me:
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456050
    .
    The magic spell is broken. We are many. They are few. The delicious empowerment of it all.

  24. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:01 pm

    Mods Can Yugo/Larry be taken off? I thought he was banned anyway. He is stirring things up on the previous thread – 9/11, Holocaust etc in his usual style. It is tedious to scroll through it.

  25. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:03 pm

    Guildford High Street, a temple to consumerism in the 20th and 21st centuries (shoes, phones, clothes, furniture, cosmetics, jewellery, banks and building societies), was a place in which to riot in the 19th century.
    .
    http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/bonfire-night/features/the-guildford-guy-riots
    .
    Mayor Jacob brought in the Lancers and introduced more police with cutlasses to restore calm. A man after some of the ConDems’ hearts.

  26. larry Levin

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:04 pm

    What exactly have I done?, Mary I will check what i wrote and apologize if something should not have been said.

  27. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:07 pm

    Larry I am referring to Larry from St Louis who now posts as Yugo Stiglitz.

  28. larry Levin

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:08 pm

    Dear Mary I have been through all my posts and I do not see anything to do with the holocaust? what thing did I stir up? can you post it so I can at least know how you are offended.

  29. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:08 pm

    For many young people in Britain, even Hobnobs, Coke and MaccyDs are out of reach!
    .
    It’s this austerity thing you see, Angry. Benefit cuts, sanctions etc., to pay the banksters’ bonuses.
    .
    Angrysoba – complacent and out of touch as ever.

  30. Jon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:08 pm

    Larry Levin – Mary means another poster. You’re fine as you are :)

  31. danj

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:09 pm

    Completely agree with your words and analysis.

  32. Tom Welsh

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:09 pm

    I was struck by the eye-witness account of looters emerging from the Sony warehouse laden with games consoles (one of them hit him in passing, more or less because he was there). Minutes later, the whole place went up in flames. That is exactly the way the Vikings behaved on their raids. They went in quick and hard, raping and killing – then they grabbed all the loot they could carry, and burned the place to the ground on the way out.

    Some things don’t change, and it will always be true that (as Robert Heinlein repeatedly observed) man is the most dangerous animal in the known universe. Violence is repressed by a thin veneer of morality, custom, social pressure, and law. Incrasingly we have seen the first three of those being scraped away by advanced thinkers who regard them as antiquated relics. Law, alone, cannot do the job. After all, the have-nots reason, who makes the law? The haves, of course. Hence the sudden widespread appeal of anarchy. If society, civilisation, culture, all lead to the situation we have today – well, they can’t be much use, can they?

  33. Af

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:10 pm

    ‘There is no justification’?

    How can there be justification when there is no visible justice?

    You cannot pass judgement on the actions of anybody who has lived, nay, existed, in institutional injustice.

    And don’ expect rational behaviour from people who’s lives have no sense or purpose.

    I worked with young people below the bottom rung in society who were homeless, addicted to drugs and alcohol, living on benefits with no prospects of work to whom shoplifting and blagging was a career. I worked with them and experienced with them the impossibility of crawling out of the situation.

    Privileged people often say that we live in a society of opportunity and there are no excuses for people not to prosper. Quite simply, those people are idiots because for the inequity of a society with disproportionate wealth at the top to flourish, there has to be a disproportionate level of poverty at the bottom. It’s a simple matter of mathematical balance.

  34. wendy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:14 pm

    “2.44pm: Boris Johnson says he does not want to hear social and economic justifications for the rioting.

    2.43pm: Boris Johnson is speaking in Clapham Junction. His message to the rioters is: “They will face punishments they will bitterly regret.”

    The mayor of London is facing a lot of heckling. People are asking where the police were yesterday.”
    .
    guardian

  35. Jon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:17 pm

    On the topic of the post: Sky News is at present looping a video from YouTube in which an injured man is tended to by a passer-by, the latter of whom then proceeds to steal items out of his back-pack. It is really is a disgrace. But I find that the underclass to which Craig refers have had very good teachers. I agree with him, but he might also have added:
    .
    > There are root problems in society which have caused this, but the immediate cause is
    > impunity. The Members of Parliament and the corporations witnessed that they could
    > loot what they wanted, while the police would merely stand and watch. As a result,
    > more and more capitalist elements joined in and the situation has gone from bad to
    > worse.
    .
    Confirmation bias? No; too many concurring examples of systematic dishonesty for that to be likely, in my view at least.

  36. Jonangus Mackay

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:18 pm

    Easy to forget that our present Prime Minister & London Mayor stand as a burning example, one might say, to both would-be rioters & arsonists:
    .
    ‘Things got out of hand and we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.’ .
    .
    — David Cameron speaking in 1986.

  37. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:22 pm

    “Privileged people often say that we live in a society of opportunity and there are no excuses for people not to prosper. Quite simply, those people are idiots because for the inequity of a society with disproportionate wealth at the top to flourish, there has to be a disproportionate level of poverty at the bottom. It’s a simple matter of mathematical balance.”
    .
    This is true.
    .
    We used to have a far more equal distribution of wealth until the wicked witch arrived upon the scene.
    .
    Under New Labour things got even worse. In their wisdom our leaders chose even more inequality.
    .
    In economic terms this kind of violence we’ve seen is part of the cost of the choices we’ve made in politics.
    .
    Simples.

  38. Af

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:23 pm

    “2.44pm: Boris Johnson says he does not want to hear social and economic justifications for the rioting”

    What did I say earlier?

  39. larry Levin

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:23 pm

    Dear Mary. To find out who has power in a society find out which group cannot be criticised.

    Mary if Larry from St Louis says stuff that is antisemitic do you think the fellow readers/bloggers are intelligent enough to recognize this for themselves do they need a nanny?

  40. Keith

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:28 pm

    Er, have you been living in the same country as me? This is chickenfeed compared to the gangsterism and terrorism of your former employer. Offer us unemployed people 35 hours a week at a decent hourly rate and most crime would disappear. Mot because the white-collar crime of the banksters and the FO torture colluders would remain.

    Stop being so middle class.

  41. Jon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:29 pm

    Incidentally, has anyone seen any journalists asking Cameron et al whether they would consider the disenfranchisement of the burgeoning underclass as a contributing factor to the violence? No surprises that Boris has his fingers in his ears, of course. Anyway, it would be good to see this question asked until a satisfactory response is obtained.

  42. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:31 pm

    “The policing does raise vital questions. The Met has 30,000 officers. Tonight it will have 16,000 out on the street, including reinforcement from elsewhere. Why on earth did it only have 6,000 out last night across the whole of London, when everyone knew what would happen? And why then did they simply watch looters? Senior officers had decreed that the “containment” tactics used to control political demonstrations should be used here. What arrant nonsense. You don’t just cordon off areas in which looters are allowed to loot.”
    Cowardice.
    I still can’t come to terms with why they watched while a building was razed to the ground, until other buildings had come into play. There is more to this than meets the eye, especially with knowledge that the second bullet, alledgedly lodging in a police radio, was not from mini-cab as was originally assumed, but from the police weapon that killed the young man.

  43. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:33 pm

    “A police chief today accused rioters of targeting Birmingham city centre out of greed.”
    .
    “This was not an angry crowd, this was a greedy crowd.”
    .
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/birmingham-rioters-a-greedy-crowd-2334278.html
    .
    Perhaps someone ought to explain to this dimwit that greed and self-interest are fundamental to our system. They’re not bad things. They’re good things.
    .
    Ask the Thatch, if you don’t believe me.
    .
    The other amusing thing is that these clowns, police and politicians etc still seem to think they have any credibility left.

  44. Dr Paul

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:42 pm

    Below is part of an e-mail I sent to various pals about recent events. One thing I have not looked at is whether one vital factor in the riots 30 years back — the systematic harassment of black youth by the police — is still a factor or a major factor today. Darcus Howe reckons it is, but is it?

    Please note that these are only preliminary thoughts, and I may well revise them as more information comes in and as I discuss them with other people.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    The fact that a small protest about the police’s killing of a black man (possibly a crook) in Tottenham leads to riots on a scale we have not seen in London for 25 years shows that something has been occurring that is very deep-running and the shooting and protest are only a trigger for the unleashing of this torrent.

    Below I’ve outlined some of the factors that I think lurk behind these events, if indirectly or in a mediated way.

    Distrust of authority: this is part of the disaggregation of society (I think that this is inevitable in today’s form of capitalism), very little holds society together, old agencies and institutions have declined and rotted with nothing to replace them, many youth see nothing positive in their lives beyond instant gratification and shallow cultural norms and manifestations. A sense of society going nowhere (not sensed in a theoretical or political way, but an almost unconscious feeling of an empty, aimless life). Lumpenisation of many youth, especially the unemployed, poorly-educated: replacement of old social networks by pseudo-solidarity of gangs. Distrust of state authorities and politicians — often justified, but also often takes a negative, anti-social form.

    A generalised culture of getting what one wants: the recent celebrity culture in which no-talent types get rich merely by being on the telly. Logic: anyone can have what he or she wants without doing anything.

    A generalised culture of disobeying rules and laws: MPs’ expenses, the Murdoch phone-tapping scandal with its involvement of the police and press, and the arrogance of those involved. Logic: they don’t even obey they own laws, so why should I?

    Bankers’ bonus culture: people in the finance world getting huge bonuses even when their firms are doing badly and getting bailed out by the state. Logic: you can get what you want regardless of what you do; so if you can’t afford it, you can still nick it.

    A culture of violence: British governments (and others too) blithely attack other countries that are not a threat, using all manner of lies to justify their actions. Logic: you can act violently, you can do what you like against other people.

    I think that these are some of the factors that have seeped into society, not always consciously, but have made their way deep into people’s consciousness. It’s not exactly that someone looks at, say, British military action in Iraq then later says to himself: ‘Oh, I think I’ll loot the local shops and half-inch a nice telly and some trainers.’ It’s a lot more mediated and indirect than that, but is nonetheless there.

  45. JimmyGiro

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:43 pm

    @Tome Welsh,
    .
    Is this Anarchy, or is it chaos?
    .
    I believe as Mr Murray, that these riots lack the coherence of political purpose; therefore it must be chaos.
    .
    The chaos brought about by the micromanagement of decades of left wing pseudo-science, from all avenues of social bureaucracy, from the government, the public media, and social services. The lesson being that you can’t push string; evolution is a damned sight more effective at moulding the human condition, than a bunch of superannuated sixth-formers in positions of power, under the influence of the Frankfurt School of Marxist-Feminism.

  46. habermas

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:50 pm

    How can Craig, a former ambassador for bourgeois criminal ruling class make write such tripe, if those jackbooted thugs who started all this shoot a single rebel on the streets of London this mayhem will spread to your front door. And when it does I will view it as sad but inevitable because you wished it upon yourself.

  47. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 3:51 pm

    Larry Levin Id you are suggesting that I am a nanny I would refute that. We are just tired of your namesake. He derails and diverts the discussion and we have had him here for years.

  48. Jon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 4:23 pm

    Yeah, Larry L – we have a few special cases here, where permitting free speech on every topic but the one in hand tends to reduce free speech for the majority. The former instance of free speech is usually aggressive, spiteful and lacking in both engagement and good faith. Moderation has cleared up this problem enormously.

  49. MJ

    9 Aug, 2011 - 4:29 pm

    “I have no problem at all with calling for the deployment of baton rounds, tear gas and water cannon”
    .
    I do and I’m relieved that Theresa May is speaking in more temperate tones than Craig. These are certainly not legitimate political protests but we surely don’t need the precedent of tear gas and water cannon to be established before the legitimate political protests start in earnest, as they surely will.

  50. John Gossj

    9 Aug, 2011 - 4:47 pm

    Many of the rioters are wearing masks to hide their identity. But there are more sophisticated wearers of masks. I apologise to Percy Bysshe Shelley for this line paraphrase of one of his great poems.

    “I met Murdoch on the stair, he wore a masque like Tony Blair.”

  51. Canspeccy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 4:47 pm

    “This is not a race issue.”
    *
    So the fact that the press images show an overwhelming majority of the looters, rioters and arsonists as non-white is just a racist slur against the victimized-by-society immigrant community, is it?

  52. ingo

    9 Aug, 2011 - 4:49 pm

    Unless the ConDem Government comes up with some serious ideas that re addresses the balance of opportunities, talks about jobs for those who have none in those areas, there will be no Olypmics.

    If the IOC should take the position of asking France to ready its stadia and prepare a plan B, at the last possible moment, so be it. This kettle is boiling over and they can’t just advance with the cavalry, they also must come up with some noises for society, address the mistrust and hate of the police force.
    Still think that the Met is too big, too comfortable with itself, it has lost peoples trust and is seen as immune to the law.
    Add to that the bullying and mega million deals, financed by gamblers hoping for Godot by playing the lottery, deals that have made Lord Coe and his friends day, and night.

    Tonight we will see some brave people defending properties and lives, let us see whether the police will be able to dfistinguish between those defending their property and those who want to cause mayhem and steal.
    There are many communities who will soon take this approach, last night saw some Turkish Cypriots defending their restaurant, good on them.

    Just out on BBC radio 5: Trouble in West Bromwich 200 youth on the rampage.

  53. angrysoba

    9 Aug, 2011 - 4:50 pm

    “So the fact that the press images show an overwhelming majority of the looters, rioters and arsonists as non-white is just a racist slur against the victimized-by-society immigrant community, is it?”
    .
    Here we go again.
    .
    Oh, and here we go again. This time, West Bromwich apparently.

  54. OldMark

    9 Aug, 2011 - 4:55 pm

    ‘Watching it from the sanity of Scotland enhances the feeling of it happening somewhere I don’t know.’

    Your humility does you credit Craig- your last 2 posts on the riots were piss poor but this one is an improvement. Hitherto your writing about the urban riots expressed a bafflement one would expect from Anglo Scot, raised in rural Norfolk, who has spent most of his working life out of the country. I’ll always respect your views on foreign policy Craig, but on matters closer to home your judgment is less sure footed.

    ‘Frankly the thought of uniformed EDL on the streets scares me far more than the riots’

    Where exactly do you live, Old Twat ? This was the scene last night 2 miles away from where I’m writing this-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrHKpjHNpZg&NR=1

    The sight of ANY effective uniformed presence round where I live would be welcome at the moment, Old Twat- even if it includes those who sympathize with the EDL when when off duty.

  55. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:14 pm

    Even Sky News understands what the economic numbers mean:
    .
    http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16046645
    .
    “Can Economic Factors Explain The Riots?”
    .
    “London is Britain’s most unequal region by far, in terms of the income gap.”
    .
    “they underline the fact that in economic and social terms, London has been a tinderbox for some time.”

  56. angrysoba

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:26 pm

    Herbie: For many young people in Britain, even Hobnobs, Coke and MaccyDs are out of reach!
    .
    It’s this austerity thing you see, Angry. Benefit cuts, sanctions etc., to pay the banksters’ bonuses.

    .
    Don’t be such a moron, Herbie. The people doing the looting and rioting were people in *gangs*. This wasn’t the “sigh of the oppressed”. Male and female from the ages of 13 or so and up and using Blackberries and iPhones to contact each other. Stealing PSPs out of random people’s backpacks and going into book-keepers to trash the flatscreen monitors.
    .
    Oh, and they didn’t touch Waterstones, for some reason.

  57. martin nichols

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:35 pm

    Craig:”One thing which has been under-reported is the amount of personal violence that has been used, with people mugged in the streets, cab and bus drivers attacked and people stoned as they ran from burning flats.”

    You can’t know if it’s been under-reported. Because your only evidence for it happening at all are reports, which may not be reliable in the first place.

  58. wendy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:35 pm

    who said muslims dont have a sense of humour?
    .
    the iranians have said that the british police should act with restraint.
    .
    500 now arrested
    .
    makes you think as to how the iranian protests were covered in the uk ..

  59. Jon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:36 pm

    Alright, please keep it civil, AngrySoba and Herbie. Our shouting at each other doesn’t much help with advancing our respective perspectives!

  60. wendy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:37 pm

    “Oh, and they didn’t touch Waterstones, for some reason.”
    .
    obvious economics, what can turn a ‘profit’ quickly.
    .
    just because they are thieving, doesnt mean they dont have sound business sense.

  61. wendy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:52 pm

    “So the fact that the press images show an overwhelming majority of the looters, rioters and arsonists as non-white is just a racist slur against the victimized-by-society immigrant community, is it?”
    .
    it just means that the people rioting are from a predominently black population. now is that a wealthy area or a deprived area?
    .
    .
    “These are certainly not legitimate political protests but we surely don’t need the precedent of tear gas and water cannon to be established before the legitimate political protests start in earnest, as they surely will.”
    .
    too late. the pretext for these has already been made.
    .
    .
    “The chaos brought about by the micromanagement of decades of left wing pseudo-science, from all avenues of social bureaucracy, from the government, the public media, and social services. The lesson being that you can’t push string; evolution is a damned sight more effective at moulding the human condition, than a bunch of superannuated sixth-formers in positions of power, under the influence of the Frankfurt School of Marxist-Feminism.”
    .
    we should recall that we have for the last 30 or so years had neo liberal, neo con right wing economics and politics in the uk. that has sought to disenfranchise rather than empower, that has sought enrich a few rather than distribute. that has latterly sought to save the bankers not the nation.
    .
    .
    “Why on earth did it only have 6,000 out last night across the whole of London, when everyone knew what would happen? And why then did they simply watch looters?”
    .
    same old rhetoric from the politcians, what is striking is that they are so relaxed about what has happened. they hardly appear to have any real concern, no michael heseltine moment to be certain. so they will introduce more policing powers. and thats about all.
    .
    the media has carefully constructed a no blame firewall with respect to ideological economic strategy being employed , and the govt has distanced itself from that claim. so its just thugs, and an establishment that has allowed it fester for 3 days.

  62. MJ

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:56 pm

    For those who can envisage themselves taking part in political protests in the not-too-distant future there may be lessons to be learned from what we have seen so far.
    .
    For instance, it seems that it is far better to have several smaller protests happening simultaneously in different locations than it is to have one mass protest. The latter is much easier to police and makes you a sitting target for heavy handed tactics. Keep things as close to home as possible, there are clear benefits from having local knowledge. If you know the streets you’re protesting in better than the police then you have an immediate advantage.
    .
    Also it’s important to take into account how the news is reported these days. It appears to me that the live rolling news coverage of the Tottenham riot, on Sky and the BBC, contributed to the rapid spread of copycat riots elsewhere the following day (this didn’t happen in 1985 because there were far fewer channels then). The footage of the bus going up in flames – and of policemen cowering behind their lines while rioters ran amock – was potent, dramatic and endlessly replayed. So if you want the media around, set fire to something, preferably at night. If you want the media to ignore you, protest peacefully.

  63. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:57 pm

    Jody McIntyre is the young disabled man who was yanked out of his wheelchair at the student protests and dragged across the street. He was also interviewed very aggressively by Ben Brown of the BBC afterwards.
    .
    He writes of his experience at the riot here.
    http://jodymcintyre.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/from-brixton-to-tottenham-the-inequality-at-the-heart-of-the-riots/
    .
    A video on You Tube that he made previously about police protests has been removed by Google.
    .
    Also Google has admitted complying with requests from US intelligence agencies for data stored in its European data centers, most likely in violation of European Union data protection laws.
    {http://news.softpedia.com/news/Google-Admits-Handing-over-European-User-Data-to-US-Intelligence-Agencies-215740.shtml}

  64. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 5:59 pm

    Angrysoba
    .
    If even Sky News understands what the underlying problems are, in their business section, then I fail to see what contribution someone thousands of miles away has to make to the underlying social problems in London today.
    .
    You’ve nothing to go on but headline media reports from afar and anecdotal videos.
    .
    The reason it’s in their business section is because it’s important their business readers get facts about what’s likely to happen!! Chomsky said something about that. Go look it up.
    .
    http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16046645
    .
    Jon
    .
    If you can’t distinguish between calling someone a moron, as he did me, and my suggesting that Angrysoba is complacent, then you really need to ask yourself ought you to be moderating this blog.
    .
    Your last effort smacks of what the BBC like to convince themselves is “balance” but everyone else knows is nothing of the sort.

  65. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:06 pm

    Angry – we refer to betting shops as bookies. I suppose that is a short form of book keepers.
    ~~~~~

    Cameron has visited Gold Command at Scotland Yard. That is the operation controlled by Cressida Dick at the time who oversaw the assassination of Jean Charles de Menezes.
    .
    Preliminary findings of the IPCC on the death of Mark Duggan.
    Independent Police Complaints Commission’s initial ballistics results on the shooting of Mark Duggan, which triggered Saturday’s initial riots in Tottenham.
    .
    The results show:
    .
    • The bullet lodged in the police radio is a “jacketed round”. This is a police issue bullet and, while it is still subject to DNA analysis, it is consistent with having been fired from a Metropolitan police Heckler and Koch MP5 submachine gun.
    .
    • The firearm found at the scene was a converted BBM “Bruni” self-loading pistol. This is not a replica; the scientist considers it to be a firearm for the purposes of the Firearms Act and a prohibited weapon and is therefore illegal.
    .
    • The handgun was found to have a “bulleted cartridge” in the magazine, which is being subject to further tests.
    .
    • At this stage there is no evidence that the handgun found at the scene was fired during the incident. The FSS has told the IPCC that it may not be possible to say for certain; however further tests are being carried out in an attempt to establish this.
    .

  66. Steve

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:11 pm

    I agree with pretty much every Craig has said on his last 2 posts.

    The general demographic of the public-facing police force has changed considerably over the past 10 years . Observe the number of female PCSOs, observe the fresh-faced young constables, observe the abundance of female officers on the front line these past few nights (not having a go at the ladies here, after all, they were on the line) and you’ll see what I mean. They hardly instill fear into criminals or confidence into the public they serve. If you’ve spent any time in the States you’ll know what I mean.

    Successive governments have reduced our public services to a bare minimum and the chickens are coming home to roost. I’m not having a go at the officers but at the politicians who set the budgets.

    The police have been all about easy targets and statistics for ages now. As Craig states, you often see them getting stuck into crusty students etc. but faced with a real foe they’re nowhere to be seen.

    The buck has to stop with the government! I wish the officers on the streets tonight the very best of luck.

  67. YugoStiglitz

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:11 pm

    [Mod/Jon, deleted as disruptive]

  68. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:11 pm

    Jody McIntyre loses his blog at The Independent, for corrupting the young and not believing in the city’s gods.
    .
    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/08/08/jody-mcintyre/
    .
    Laurie Penny is the last activist blogger left.
    .
    May God help us all.

  69. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:15 pm

    .
    Some silly woman at the BBC insults Darcus Howe.
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o
    .
    Memories of Jody and Ben Brogan of the BBC.
    .
    For Jon
    .
    Both instances are what the BBC call balance. By way of a clue, they’re not!!
    .
    They’re designed to instill in the viewer a negative view of the interviewee. An altogether loathsome tactic I’m sure you’ll agree.

  70. angrysoba

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:16 pm

  71. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:27 pm

    Angrysoba
    .
    Now reduced to posting boastful tweets to support his case.
    .
    Delighted though we are that you take such an interest in London affairs, I think it’s fairly safe to asume you don’t know anything about what’s going on here.
    .
    Again, if you’re really interested, here are some facts:
    .
    http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16046645
    .
    If you want to comment on the facts, then well and good, but readers are certainly entitled to draw their own conclusions should you continue to ignore them as you have been doing.

  72. Canspeccy

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:33 pm

    Angy said “Here we go again.”

    But apparently not. All those seemingly non-indigenously British people, looting and burning is something the lib-left cannot bear to even think about. How sad that the dominant political movement in Europe is so ossified in its thinking that it is no longer capable of dealing with reality.

  73. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:33 pm

    Herbie – it was Ben Brown of the BBC.
    ~~~
    The trouble extended into Kent yesterday I see. There are already reports of trouble in Manchester this afternoon.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-14465585
    ~~~~
    The Cameron effect is apparent at the stock exchange which was up today. Lots of lolly for his pals in the City for doing all that selling off and buying back, I think they are called ‘trades’.

  74. angrysoba

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:33 pm

  75. A Sad Jester

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:35 pm

    This is not revolution, social or class struggle, economic deprivation. What this is called is FUN. These kids are having fun at the expense of others. There is a movement of criminality or some form of distraction behind it, but most of the kids think this is FUN and they don’t think or care about anything or anyone else.

    How do I know?
    I have lived in Belfast, Northern Ireland for nearly 50 years and have seen it all before and much worse.

    “RECREATIONAL RIOTING”, is what it’s called here.

    I know what happened in Northern Ireland was awful and about the lives lost but the young people who went out onto the streets to riot, especially in the later stages, went for the fun and excitement.
    You can try and analyse all you like but that is how many of my friends seen it at the time.
    I never got involved myself, as I was horrified by what I had seen as a child during the early days of the troubles.

    What we see happening in britain is nothing new, it has happened before and it will happen again. I just hope it stops before anyone else get hurt or killed.

  76. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:39 pm

    Herbiw The woman talking over Darcus Howe is Lady Gregor Charles MacGregor in real life when she is not operating for the state broadcaster. She should have stuck to fishing and clan history.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiona_Armstrong

  77. Nextus

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:43 pm

    These riots aren’t a sudden outburst of latent “criminality”. They are generated and sustained by a feeling – feeling that the youth have not been able to express in any other way. It is (roughly) this:
    .
    ++ Disaffection with state control and media manipulation ++
    .
    It has many facets, many nuances and some exceptions. But that’s the core current driving this phenomenon.

  78. Parky

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:55 pm

    A certain irony that the rioters are using the technological tools of capitalism, the Blackberry and social media Twit-ter and Fascist-book, to co-ordinate their activties. And as strong encryption has been incorporated into the former, makes it hard to trace.
    +
    Many are savvy enough to use generic fashion clothing and cover their faces from the prying eyes of CCTV and media cameras. Surely unless summary justice will be used, making a case at court with strong evidence is not going to be easy. There is likely to be a lawyer fest when the legal aid comes in following this.
    +
    As for the furniture store that went up last night, I thought modern furniture had to be fairly fire resistant going back to regulations of the 1980′s. Of course this was before globalisation took hold and maybe the foreign imports do not meet the requirements as they should. Odd though that it was left to go up when Sky news helicopter relayed the whole event. Surely they must have had fire alarms?

  79. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 6:55 pm

    A Sad Jester
    .
    You’re quite right about that. Fun indeed.
    .
    The issue however is that it was the culture of alienation produced by the bigoted statelet of NI that enabled such fun.
    .
    So alienated were people that they had nothing but total and utter contempt and disrespect for the state that their fun enabled its downfall in that form.
    .
    It’s that kind of alienation that we’re witnessing here. These people just don’t care anymore because the state just doesn’t care about them. They may aswell have some fun with it.
    .
    That’s the price you pay for neoliberal policies.
    .
    I suspect the banksters will be thinking they can rely on the army and tanks and so on to protect them when the shtf, but as we saw in NI that’s not quite what happens.

  80. Herbie

    9 Aug, 2011 - 7:16 pm

    Oopsie doopsie doo
    .
    Police to blame, again!
    .
    “Mark Duggan did not shoot at police, says IPCC”
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/mark-duggan-police-ipcc
    .
    How long will it be I wonder before the Police are brought under some sort of democratic control. They’re responsible for more breaches of the peace than all the criminals in the country added together.
    .
    How many have they killed in police custody since 1998?
    .
    That would be about 330.
    .
    Any police convicted?
    .
    Of course not!

  81. Sam

    9 Aug, 2011 - 7:29 pm

    I usually agree with Craig, but I find the suggestion of volunteer police officers and rubber bullets pretty chilling, and probably the easiest way to inflame the situation further. Do you think the volunteer police wouldn’t be brought out to bash a few heads next time there was a general strike?
    .
    There are no quick fixes to this, it’s the end result of thirty years of ignoring inner city communities, ignoring the polarisation of wealth, and letting myriad social problems compound over generations, while at the same time bombarding people with advertising designed to encourage selfish greed. I’m not condoning violence, or excusing the individuals of responsibility, but we have to accept it happened in our society and its a societal problem. The immediate reaction may need more (genuine) police on the streets. But the real problem needs thirty years of dedicated resources to turn if around.

  82. technicolour

    9 Aug, 2011 - 8:09 pm

    Bloody hell, I didn’t realise it was Amy Winehouse’s fault.

  83. technicolour

    9 Aug, 2011 - 8:31 pm

    “Meanwhile, as former England cricket captain Alec Stewart began assembling a posse of vigilante test heroes, seismologists reported a sudden lurch to the right as people who own tagines found themselves calling for the immediate deployment of the Parachute Regiment and a couple of RAF Tornadoes.”

    I do love the Daily Mash on these occasions.

  84. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 8:31 pm

    The police could have come clean about what happened right from the start. Officers who were there when Mark Duggan was shot would have known he never fired a shot. It cannot have taken 5 days to debrief them. Or even 1 day. This fills me with disgust. What the Police did instead was lead the public to believe he shot at police at the scene and that a bullet lodged in a policeman’s radio. It’s Jean Charles de Menezes all over again. A police cover up.

  85. Dave Hansell

    9 Aug, 2011 - 8:42 pm

    Seems like Corporal Jones got put in charge whilst I was away on holiday. I know it’s the silly season but water cannon and baton rounds? I think you’ll find the senior command structure of the Police Service will be rolling their eyes at that one.

    Why?

    Practical reasons for a start. Water cannon is a device for dispersing large groups of people gathered in one place. It’s certainly not a useful or tool or practical option in situations where shopping malls and high streets are being rolled over by mobile groups moving rapidly from place to place. Moreover, using them to target small groups of people looting shops and setting fire to things before they move on will end up causing more damage to shops and the stock that’s left.

    What was that I heard in the background there? Don’t panic! don’t panic!

    Similarly with baton rounds which the professionals will only use as a last resort in situations where there is risk of injury or death to members of the public or the police. In situations where there are non-participants in the immediate vicinity of what is taking place or poor light you risk injuring or killing innocent people if you start using them indiscriminantly.

    Just as an aside Craig, you haven’t moved to Tunbridge Wells have you?

    I blame the mainstream media for a lot of the hot air that’s been blown about here. I’m also with the author Terry Pratchett’s observation that a lie can be twice round the world before the truth has got its boots on. The level of lazy journalism taking place is staggering. Instead of going out and doing some basic leg work much of the media spends its time in the imeediate aftermath of situations like this pinning politicians up against a wall for an instant soundbite or using a small coterie of “instant experts” rather than actually finding out what going on in different places.

    So you end up with empty platitudes, fear, and panic and an absence of clear heads as everyone starts following the agenda set by the media, the politicians, the studio experts and the rest of the insular Westminster village.

    Seriously, how many people actually know what is going on? Is the situation and events in Ealing the same as that in Campden or Hackney, or Croydon? What about the different parts of the country? Is Liverpool the same as Kent. Nottingham the same as Bristol? and we have not even started on motivation. Are they all the same? Are the groups involved the same? Are they ALL white? black? Working class? Middle Class? Underclass? or is there differentiation taking place?

    The only answers people have are driven by the prism of what they hear and see in the media – which is a key problem here. Not only do you have peoples views and opinions affected by instant observation and comment but also interpretation. And to be frank the record is not good.

    It was less than two weeks ago that we saw the same phenomenon at work with the tragic events in Norway. Where within hours we saw a plethora of “experts” stoking up the image of “Islamic Terrorism” with instant interprtation to be fed to the masses when the full facts were not known. In the course of a weekend, and without missing a beat, the “Islamist Threat” line was dropped and the edl was suddenly part of the framework of explanation. And no one, apart from Charlie Booker in the Guardian, batted an eyelid. it was like a scene from Orwells’ 1984 the way the majority of people seemed to take it in their stride as though no contradictions had occurred.

    You could go through the Barroom Darts scene from the film Roxanne (Starring Steve Martin)as many times as you like with as many darts and still struggle to run out of examples of cases where the initial and official line of interpretation being fed out turns out to be load of baloney. From the Gulf of Tonkin incident; used as pretext for an escalation of US involvement in SE Asia; through to the events of Orgreave; the fatal shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes; the death of Ian Tomlinson and so on.

    So you end up with a stoking up of the fear factor – which not only sells newspapers it also acts as a powerful means of controlling the agenda. At work today I thought I’d died and been banished to Daily Heil Land listening to some of the comments which seemed to be indistinguishable from whet you get in an op-ed peice in that kind of publication.

    Someone in the MSM has commented about the use of social media and suddenly I’m hearing words like “they (meaning the authorities) need to to control it; but you’ll get the civil libertarians opposing that” and so on and so on.

    And it then becomes difficult not to think about the contents of these observations:

    http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

    and starting to make comparisons.

    No one has a clue what is really going on because the only source is so contaminated that any sensible person needs to keep their heads and not get paniced into knee jerk reactions based on incomplete nfacts and instant interpretations.

    It’s not that long ago that a major trial – which cost shed loads of public money, not to mention the police costs involved – collapsed due to the fact that those arrested had been infiltrated by an Agent Provocetuer working for the state security services and that it is public knowledge that he was not alone. Anyone who has been around long enough also learns that the majority of “left” groups and protest groups are infiltrated and many even compromised and led by such people. How does anyone know for sure whether or not some of these events are being stoked up in similar fashion?

    The answer is we dont know one way or the other. All we have is instant interpretation affecting our view which most sensible people should treat with a hefty dose of scepticism because experience has demonstrated it to be suspect at best. We need to keep a clear head, a sense of perspective (150 youths smashing windows in Manchester City Centre reported tonight. That might have made the papers back in the 60′s and 70′s as a relatively small event on a Saturday during the days of footbal hooliganism), and a mindset which seeks to improve the situation.

    This latter objective can only be achieved by analysing things properly using evidence based approaches. At the momeent this is not possible because the dominant discourse is shouting very loudly in a knee jerk way like a Borg on Steroids that “context is futile” and not an option.

    If the Colonal Blinks, and you know who you are becuase you wear it like a badge of pride like the dumb dog in the fables, want to be taken seriously as part of the solution rather than remaining part of the problem, I’m afraid you are going to have to start living in the real world and drop such a nonsensical position. Consideration and study of the context is not a method of excusing something it’s a method of analysis and synthesis vital for tackling the issues raised here.

  86. technicolour

    9 Aug, 2011 - 8:46 pm

    More police violence to end something that began with police violence, I say!

  87. A Sad Jester

    9 Aug, 2011 - 8:47 pm

    Sam,
    At the start of the NI troubles the local self-appointed volunteer police force became one of the top paramilitary organisations causing more damage to the community it was supposed to protect than its so called enemies. So this idea of Craig’s to empower the community does not always work for the good.
    Plastic baton rounds are deadly weapons and should not be used however; water cannon with a dye so that rioters can be identified later would be good.
    Herbie,
    The young man who was sadly killed, had a gun, WHY?
    Most police officers do not go out every day to kill they are there to protect. The PSNI (RUC) is constantly blamed for acts that are carried out by groups or individuals. The Omagh bomb is only one example.
    The police do not plant bombs or murder people in cold blood, in some cases shadowy groups connected to government may or may not , a misguided individual or an infiltrator or by mistake but not the Bobby on the beat. The organisation as a whole (apart from the top brass taking a bung from News Corp) is doing a pretty good job. The police needs are support and this includes keeping them in check and within the law.
    It is time the blame was put back where it belongs not on the police, the government or the greedy rich but people. Those who loot and destroy the property of others are breaking the law, are law they are not revolutionary freedom fighters seeking social justice or heroic outlaws just bored, selfish brats behaving like spoilt children.

  88. writeon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 8:48 pm

    Craig’s piece is very naive and superficial. Expecting teenagers to target the homes of bankers and the super-rich for arson, is asking a lot of them isn’t it?

    As I believe bourgeois democracy is dead and we’re heading for a kind of ‘fuedal’ dictatorship, the return of the famous London ‘Mob’ was only to be expected, after all, Cameron and Osbourne seem like figures from the eighteenth century, fabulously wealthy aristocrats lecturing the peasantry about the Big Society.

    Cameron’s latest drivel, that a massive social explosion, is really and simply criminal activity, shows that he knows about as much about sociology as he does about economics, which is close to nothing.

    Revolutions… have to start somewhere, don’t they? They are rarely pretty and don’t follow a neat plan. Is this the start of a revolution? Unfortunately, probably not, but it is another step along the road to revolution.

    Somehow, we have to remove the ruling elite from power, typified by Cameron and Osbourne. What kind of society allows shits like them to accumulate a £100,000,000 between them? Basically, with people like them re-emerging to claim their natural birthright to rule over the common people… we are doomed.

    Craig is also totally wrong about ‘education’ and the anti-education stance of young people. They are right to reject the bullshit fed to them in crap schools, for what it is, pure propaganda, designed to make them conform and serve the state, the corporate state.

    In fact the youngsters are reacting ‘rationally’ and ‘normally’ in a society that’s sick, depraved, degenerate, undemocratic, corrupt and doomed.

    It’s not the kids who are a threat to ‘civilisation’, but Cameron and the ruling elite, people who are destroying civilsation with extraordinary speed.

    These kids are our children, we created the world they grew up in, we created the ideas and values they see all around them, and then we are shocked when they react to a world gone mad?

    And what do the vicious, imperialist attacks on Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya teach our young people? That we take, with ultra-violence, what we want, by any means necessary.

    These are the lessons our young people learn, and they’ve learned them well. This is how we ‘educate’ them. They are not blind and they are not stupid.

    Even in ancient Rome there were periodic uprisings by the slave-class. These were usually, nasty, brutish and short. But do we blame the slaves for their slavery and their spontaneous and violent reaction to their inhuman treatment?

  89. writeon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:04 pm

    And if young people are ignorant and uneducated, why is that? Did it just happen by magic? No, it’s a direct result of government policy, educate them a little, but not too much. Enough to work and serve, but not enough to question and think, not enough to become a threat to the established social order.

    And this crap about ‘materialism’ is annoying too. We are subjected to what can only really be described as brainwashing by society, specifically movies, the media, and commercials and advertizing; a veritable ministry of capitalist, consumerism and ideology… and then we wonder in dumb surpise that our youth are ‘materialists.’

    Are children are corrupted by materialist propaganda from birth, isn’t their reaction to their ‘education’ perfectly normal? Are they supposed to calmly sit back and not want all they’ve been promised just because we’ve entered the Age of Austerity? Are they supposed to accept growing inequality and their pauperisation just because the cunt Cameron tells them to?

  90. A Sad Jester

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:06 pm

    Writeon,
    Sorry to disagree with you Cameron and Osbourne are not the issue here; half these rioters have never heard their drivel, unless Cameron and Osbourne are on their Facebook or Twitter friends list.
    Neither do most of them suffer real inhuman treatment they may be less will of than the elite but that is no excuse for such behaviour.
    As for revolution the only change it brings is a to the ruling elite who somehow always end up very rich, stupid or tyrannical and sometime all three.

  91. Jaded.

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:12 pm

    So, it’s looking like the kid got shot, without opening fire first, and then someone fired a bullet into a police radio after that. Am I summing this all up correctly? It all sounds very odd to me. Why would someone do that? Like it wasn’t all going to come out in the ballistics report? A firearms officer would know procedure and it just doesn’t make much sense.

  92. writeon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:22 pm

    Over the last thirty years the traditional working-class, for a variety of reasons, has almost vanished. Unfornately, for some, they kept having children, children who are, in reality, and excessive burden on society.

    The traditional bourgeois route to social advancement, at least for the gifted few, was through education; now that’s over. Crucially, it’s now the turn of the middle-class to feel the cuts and follow the working-class into oblivion. The question is, will they just passively accept their fate?

    Obviously the state is scared stiff that disaffected elements among the educated middle-class, like students, who see their hopes of a lifestyle comparable to their parents vanishing, will ally themselves with the ‘Mob’ as the nation’s economic decline begins to really squeeze the middle class. This is when things become very dangerous. Peasants revolts are rarely successful… but when the masses have an educated and ambitious leadership that could potentially become a rival or new ruling elite… then things become very interesting.

  93. A Sad (sleepy) Jester

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:26 pm

    Night Night

  94. Courtenay Barnett

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:29 pm

    @ Craig,

    Think you just found the answer for timely and effective change:-

    ” They are not destroying the homes and livelihoods of politicians and bankers,…”

    And when they start doing that…( shit – they may have me on an incitement charge here)

  95. Azra

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:35 pm

    32 people have appeared in court charged with offences such as burglary and criminal damage during the previous riots.Among them were a graphic designer, college students, a youth worker, a university graduate and a man signed up to join the army.
    A significant number of those charged were said in court to be of previously good character and had simply been drawn in to the offending.
    In one defendant’s case, a lawyer described his client as offending in “a moment of madness”.

    I demand to see my lawyer. Sorry Pal, he has been banged up too..

    So not all deprived, unemployed, down and out.. what this tell us about our society??

  96. Jack

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:35 pm

    ”That its devotees can argue that the corrupt bankers and politicians are morally no better is a perfectly valid point, but no justification…”

    There’s no justification for mugging, but if you walk down a dark alley with £1000 in a plastic bag, you can’t avoid your own share of blame for the probable consequences.

    This violence has been brewing for a very long time. Anyone who expresses surprise just hasn’t been paying attention. We do need to have a very strong line taken with people who are no more than cynically criminal looters. But to then forget why this is all happening is to invite it again. This country is as cynically divided – albeit by different factors – as it was when Victoria was on the throne. The criminality of a rich man may not justify the criminality of the man in the street, but one is a culpable mirror image of the other.

    My late father used to say “What do you call a man who steals £5?” – the answer was, of course – a thief. “And what do you call a man who steals millions?” The answer was – you probably call him Sir.

    In between all the crocodile tears from politicians and senior police officers – there’s little doubt this violence fits in very well indeed with their own cynical agenda.

  97. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:44 pm

    It’s more understandable now why the police have been holding back when they should have been protecting people and property because it’s quite obvious they knew what had actually happened when Mark Duggan was shot. Does anybody know anything about the circumstances of the shooting of a 26 year old man in Croydon last night, who has just died in hospital from his wounds?

  98. Jack

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:46 pm

    @A Sad Jester – “As for revolution the only change it brings is a to the ruling elite who somehow always end up very rich, stupid or tyrannical and sometime all three.”

    Some wise soul once said (accurately IMHO) – When people fight for their liberty, they seldom achieve more than a new master.

  99. Chancellor Mosley

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:49 pm

    What do they expect when they allow rioters to organise their activities on the internet.

    http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7554/fupstreet.jpg

  100. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 9:51 pm

    Jaded. Mark Duggan was shot twice, once in the chest and once in the biceps. He died at the scene. Reading between the lines it is feasible that the bullet which pierced his biceps rebounded, or ricocheted, and lodged in another policeman’s radio, though this is speculation. What is known is that the bullet lodged in the police radio was from a police-issue weapon. Hope that clarifies things a little. You’ll get more information on blogs than you will from the police.

  101. Jaded.

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:19 pm

    John, it just doesn’t sound very feasible to me and we probably won’t get the whole truth.

  102. Ruth

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:19 pm

    Writeon,
    I agree with everything you’ve just said and in particular,
    ‘In fact the youngsters are reacting ‘rationally’ and ‘normally’ in a society that’s sick, depraved, degenerate, undemocratic, corrupt and doomed.’

  103. Ruth

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:28 pm

    I see the Iranian government is concerned about human rights in the UK.

    ‘Iran has called on the British police to exercise restraint against people protesting over the killing of a Black man in London.

    Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast urged the British government to order the police to stop their violent confrontation with the people, IRNA reported in the early hours of Tuesday.

    Mehmanparast asked the British government to start dialogue with the protesters and to listen to their demands in order to calm the situation down.

    The Iranian official also asked independent human rights organizations to investigate the killing in order to protect the civil rights and civil liberties.’ PressTV

  104. conjunction

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:31 pm

    John Goss, good point about the police.
    .
    However it also occurs to me that another reason the police may be holding back somuch is that they have had a great deal of criticism in the last two or three years regarding corruption and also causing unneccessary deaths. It may be that on occasion these deaths were deliberate, or caused by stupidity, but sometimes by error, ie some copper having a bad day. The police are also said to be in bad odour with the government who like to blame them for doing what they do, ie be corrupt.
    .
    Therefore the police are likely to be extremely sensitive about wanting to avoid being seen as making mistakes.

    I believe that doctors probably often avoid performing operations which patients need because they are risky. They are scared of being sued, so they go for a risk-free but for the patient unhelpful option.

  105. Jaded.

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:46 pm

    How about some of you come up with some solutions to the root cause? Namely, that we don’t live in much of a democracy. We aren’t going to get any meaningful solutions from this system.

  106. Azra

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:46 pm

    @Ruth , Iranian government is better tell their friend Bashir to restrain his forces and not to kill peaceful demonstrators! They are just taking the opportunity to tell British government that Iranian are not the only one who abuse Human Rights.. Basically what they are saying is if you keep talking about our human right abuses , then we will talk about your..

  107. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:51 pm

    It’s a good point, Conjunction. However I’ve spent the last few days commenting against the rioters (I am still against the rioters) and therefore I place myself in favour of the authorities. I accept that individual coppers make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. We’re human. It took five days to rectify these mistakes. That’s the tragedy.
    I’m glad to see that since there has been a measured release of information that Mark Duggan did not open fire on the police, London is calming down a bit. Perhaps if that information had been released at the beginning these riots could have been averted. That we will never know.

  108. Jack D.

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:53 pm

    This problem can be dealt with by two words: “open fire”.

  109. Jaded.

    9 Aug, 2011 - 10:57 pm

    http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/duggan-did-not-fire-at-officers-1

    This little titbit that I just read on an msn article made me chuckle:

    ‘The IPCC said investigations into the circumstances of the shooting are continuing with a CCTV trawl of the area.’

    Alrighty!

  110. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:03 pm

    Ruth, that’s classic the Iranian government criticising Britain about human rights’ abuse.

  111. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:09 pm

    Yes, Jaded, but this was news to me. “A non-police issue handgun, converted from a blank-firing pistol to one that shoots live rounds, was recovered close to the scene of Mr Duggan’s death.” I thought the weapon was recovered from the minicab.

  112. JT

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:16 pm

    “I have no problem at all with calling for the deployment of baton rounds, tear gas and water cannon. If nobody has been burnt to death so far, it is a miracle. If the odd looter gets killed by the police by accident by a baton round, I would view that as very sad but something they brought upon themselves. I would not bring in the army at the moment, but the force of society should be brought to bear by the immediate enlistment of any volunteer with no criminal record as a temporary special constable. They should look to enlist tens of thousands.”

    Whatever else we need, we do not need more stupid comments like this. We have had enough threats of “we’re going to send in the police to do you in” – we do not need more of it.

  113. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:18 pm

    Craig, I think JT is right. This is over-reaction.

  114. Jon

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:21 pm

    @angrysoba – thanks for the correction to Jade Goody – fixed.

  115. tony_opmoc

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:27 pm

    I just posted this on Alternet

    As ugly as it is – and its mainly under 16 year olds doing this…its a kind of karma.

    The UK is Bombing the Fuck out of Tripoli Every Fucking Night.

    I am completely disgusted at both events.

    You can’t bomb for peace.

    Its now hit Manchester – close to where we currently are.

    This is not political in the conventional sense and neither is it racist.

    Its the very young dispossessed who have had their hope and future ripped away by us Older Greedy Bastards.

    There’s no difference between a kid in Libya, London, Baghdad or New York, except the kid in Libya is probably better educated and has a higher standard of living or did have until WE started dropping bombs on him to steal his oil.

    We need to stop doing this or the entire world will catch fire as we descend into hell.

    We need to give Children all over the world some hope of a future that gets better rather than worse.

    It is us adults who have failed our Children

    Incidentally, My Daughter was working till 1:00 am in the morning last night whilst this mayhem was going on. She is trying to earn some money for her final year at University. Her brother brought her home through a partial curfew.

    We could see the flames.

    Tony

  116. ray vison

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:34 pm

    It’s all over-blown and easily dealt with. Media-hype, police-hype. Meanwhile a generation of neglect smoulders.

  117. John Goss

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:34 pm

    ‘Courtenay, it’s so complex. I’m quite sure a lot of these kids have jumped on the wave so as not to be seen as outside of the circle. I’m sure a lot of them come from good homes and their parents would (will) be appalled if (when) they find out what they (have been) are up to. I’ve been young. I’m supportive of these kids, like you, I would fight for their rights, like you.’ Last night I made this observation. Tonight I learn that of those caught looting one is a university under-graduate, another an armed forces recruit.

  118. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:42 pm

    3.41pm: Computer hackers have defaced the official website of BlackBerry owner Research In Motion, in a retaliatory attack over the company’s pledge to assist the police investigation into the London riots.
    .
    Our colleague Josh Halliday has more details:
    .
    The Inside BlackBerry blog was hacked into on Tuesday afternoon by a group calling themselves TeamPoison. In a statement posted on the BlackBerry website, the hackers said:
    .
    Dear RIM;
    .
    You Will _NOT_ assist the UK Police because if u do innocent members of the public who were at the wrong place at the wrong time and owned a blackberry will get charged for no reason at all, the Police are looking to arrest as many people as possible to save themselves from embarrassment … if you do assist the police by giving them chat logs, gps locations, customer information & access to peoples BlackBerryMessengers you will regret it, we have access to your database which includes your employees information; e.g – Addresses, Names, Phone Numbers etc. – now if u assist the police, we _WILL_ make this information public and pass it onto rioters…. do you really want a bunch of angry youths on your employees doorsteps? Think about it…. and don’t think that the police will protect your employees, the police can’t protect themselves let alone protect others….. if you make the wrong choice your database will be made public, save yourself the embarrassment and make the right choice. don’t be a puppet..
    .
    p.s – we do not condone in innocent people being attacked in these riots nor do we condone in small businesses being looted, but we are all for the rioters that are engaging in attacks on the police and government…. and before anyone says “the blackberry employees are innocent” no they are not! They are the ones that would be assisting the police.
    .
    The hackers said they defaced the website “in response” to this statement made by RIM on Monday: “We feel for those impacted by the riots in London. We have engaged with the authorities to assist in any way we can.”
    .
    A spokesman for RIM said the firm was looking into the apparent website hack.
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/09/london-riots-day-four-live-blog#block-30
    (ex anton medialens)

  119. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:46 pm

    I like the euphenism contained within this Blackberry press release.
    Headcount reduction = the sack
    http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/research-in-motion-reports-first-quarter-fiscal-2012-results-revises-full-year-guidance-nasdaq-rimm-1527993.htm

  120. Jaded.

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:53 pm

    All of these data leaks and hacks the last few months are, for the most part, security service operations. That’s one thing I don’t doubt at all.

  121. mary

    9 Aug, 2011 - 11:59 pm

    s/be euphemism.
    .
    Reading that Hague, Cameron and Fox have claimed another 85 Libyan lives.
    .
    Video: Bloody NATO Massacre Kills 85 Civilians Incl. Children (August 8-9, 2011) near Zlitan/Majer, Libya
    Libya State TV
    http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m80335&hd=&size=1&l=e

  122. Jon

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:06 am

    +1 to JT and John Goss. Any suggestion that one or two of the rioters should `unfortunately die’ is a severe lurch to the right, and extremely illiberal. Whilst I have my differences with the institution of the police, individual officers seem to be doing a fairly good job, in the main – certainly here in Birmingham. I am not opposed to increasing numbers of arrests where criminality has been witnessed by officers, and I should think that might work well to attenuate the trouble in the short term.
    .
    But if we are willing to acknowledge the limited opportunities and severe disenfranchisement of an enlarged underclass, and to assert that there is a connection between these things and the rioting, we should be arguing in favour of ‘the alternative’ that people have been campaigning, marching and demonstrating for these past years. That is, a society that reaches out to its most disadvantaged people, and helps them with as much free education and healthcare as they need, without any attendant judgementalism or condescension.

  123. tony_opmoc

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:17 am

    We all need to take a step back and forget about the detail and withdraw and take an objective view of the real picture of Our World.

    As Craig says “The resources of civilisation are not exhausted.”

    The World is NOT Poorer than it was last year, 10 years ago, or even 100 years ago.

    We are NOT short of any Resources.

    We have sufficient, food, energy and mineral resources – in fact we have so much mineral resources that we build and design e.g. cameras to fail after 18 months in order to maintain “the profitability” of companies producing them.

    Its the economic and political system that is wrong.

    Almost anything can be designed and built to last for far more than 10 times its current lifetime, but the economic system we currently operate under on, does not support this practice.

    Our economic system is no longer fit for purpose. It is corrupt and virus ridden – like an ancient operating system.

    Our entire culture is not sustainable and the KIDS have just shown us we are about to CRASH.

    But there is no shortage of Wealth – or even Intelligence.

    We Can Overcome all these Problems but only by being completely honest.

    We have totally lost faith, because we know that everyone in authority is either completely stupid, corrupt or a blatantly Deceptive for personal gain.

    We need to start telling the truth

    We need to start caring about our fellow human beings wherever they live in the world and whatever the colour of their skin is and whatever god they believe in.

    And we need to start Prosecuting The Most Blatant War Criminals, starting with the Politicians – because under Cross-Examination, they will Reveal The Real Criminals in Control at The Highest Level. This has to go straight to the Top of The Pyramid of Criminality.

    Us Ordinary Adults Need To Assert Ourselves and Demand Justice, such that our Children Do Not Embarrass Us.

    I am inspired by the ordinary people of London and Manchester getting out in the mornings to clean up this mess.

    Tony

  124. Parky

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:19 am

    So now we find the mystery gun wasn’t fired and wasn’t even in the taxi cab when found !? Just how did it get there then? I wonder what the cab driver has to say about all of this. I doubt that we’re going to hear his version of events. When I heard that CO19 was responsible it told me all I needed to know as they were the ones who executed Jean Charles de Menezes.
    +
    And all Cameron can go on about is putting the crims behind bars, strewth !

  125. Jamal Kadad

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:27 am

    Reading this post, I had to make sure it was Craig Murray and not some Telegraph or Daily Mail journo. Myopic, deplorable rubbish. In tandem with Toryist demonization of all protesters and rioters so far, with heir baying for blood and calls for marshal law and water canons. I wonder what else Craig Murray’s barely concealed hatred for the ‘underclass’ (or should that be untermensch?) would have to offer us – dare he came out with it.

  126. John Goss

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:33 am

    Jon, I couldn’t agree more with most of what you say. We need to reach out to the disadvantaged, the majority “enlarged underclass” (I’m not a Bolshevik) and protect others too (I am not a Menschevik). But I know a bit about the history of change.
    If I was young and planning for the future I might consider an English restaurant in China. I know this would mean learning Mandarin (or one of the other many languages) but the truth is we are all in hock to China. In a way things have gone full circle. China gave us many commodities, paper, silk, gunpowder, to name but three. We owe them. I wish them well – providing they observe human rights. Craig should know a bit about China, since many of their commodities were introduced into the west via the silk road, through Samarkand.

  127. OldMark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:43 am

    ‘This is not a race issue.’

    A half truth at best; someone rather better acquainted than Craig with the realities of urban England also recognises there is a racial element to the latest disturbances-

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099936/in-brixton-last-night-hooded-smiling-boys-hung-around-waiting-for-something-to-happen/

    ‘There are no quick fixes to this, it’s the end result of thirty years of ignoring inner city communities’

    Inner city communities like North Peckham & Broadwater Farm have been lavished with public money for decades, a fact that anyone not living on Alpha Centauri, or not possessing a lobotomy scar, can learn with a few clicks of a mouse. These same inner city communities have however had the benefit of Scarman style policing for the last 30 years, the fruits of which were clearly visible over the past few nights.

    ‘It’s Jean Charles de Menezes all over again.’

    Duggan was in possession of an illegal firearm when he was taken out, de Menezes,like Tomlinson, and Harry Stanley (taken out merely for carrying a chair leg)were not so equipped.

  128. mark_golding

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:44 am

    A Sad Jester,

    You said, “half these rioters have never heard their drivel” which is correct and assumes the other half have heard. In the ‘other half’ are tribal leaders who listen, learn and organise through Twitter, Facebook groups and SMS. ‘Writeon’ is quite correct when he says, ‘..Cameron’s latest drivel, that a massive social explosion, is really and simply criminal activity, shows that he knows about as much about sociology as he does about economics, which is close to nothing…’
    .
    I have a problem with using tear gas, batons and water canons on these kids, this is not Bahrain or Yemen and this is not Iraq or Afghanistan where children are killed every day by excessive force. We are not yet a police state like America; yet the move is clearly in that direction exposed by the increased interception of social sites, intercepted voice communications, increasing use of miniature drones with high definition cameras and escalating drawing of firearms.
    .
    There are those who will say ‘bring it on’ just like the bent copper, Peter Power, on BBC News recently. It is to those I say, think carefully about the deception and lies from governments, their pressure groups and their intelligence services – so called leaders with false tongues and full pockets we have experienced in the last ten years.
    .
    Even now I have intelligence knowledge that plans exist for an ‘event’ to divert attention from the tenth anniversary of the greatest lie this century. Powerful groups of scientists and qualified engineers are intent on what amounts to recovering, restoring and rebuilding faith in their expertise lost by an unscientific government body whose members were subverted and poisoned by their corrupt paying masters. Their time has now come, their atonement overdue. They are the demolition of future generations.
    .
    These ‘gangs’ of young people are our children – do you want them to become slaves to a corrupt profit focused war-mongering machine? or do you want them to think, question and try to make the changes to a better, holistic life for their children?
    .
    This I believe is the year of redemption and the power of intention to change rests with a few compared to the many. With very little effort you can join in.

  129. Clark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:46 am

    Lucky police – they finally shot someone who might have had a gun.
    .
    Is there more rioting tonight or less?

  130. Clark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:52 am

    Guardian: “Use of plastic bullets authorised on British mainland as 16,000 officers flood capital”

  131. Jonangus Mackay

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:56 am

    The Police Complaints Commission’s provisional statement on Tuesday regarding the exact circumstances of Duggan’s death has prompted at least one commentator to say: ‘‘This, to me, suggests that his death was an execution .’
    .
    Though for obvious reasons never mentioned, police training is designed to ensure, in effect, nothing less. Specialist firearms units such as CO19 have long operated a de facto shoot-to-kill policy, the logic being that anything less (i.e. a merely wounded target) needlessly endangers the lives of officers.
    .
    This consideration is the key aspect of the Menezes killing & not infrequent similar such cases.
    .
    A directly-related & further, rarely if ever mentioned, aspect of such operations is the use of dumdum (expanding) bullets & their devastating effect on the human body.
    .
    The Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits their use in warfare. Their use remains legal, however, in hunting, for example, where it’s found desirable to stop an animal quickly; to ensure humane death of vermin . . . or in law enforcement.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet
    .
    Following documentary clip 1.20 mins in provides a graphic indication of likely physical circumstances seconds before Duggan’s death:
    http://bit.ly/nePowD 
    .

  132. Courtenay Barnett

    10 Aug, 2011 - 1:26 am

    @ Craig,

    Let’s get real:-

    A. Trillions paid back to the “bangsters” ( taxpayers – the people’s money)
    B. Cuts to punish the people after having repaid the “banksters”.
    C. Riots as an expression of pent up resentment, frustration, upset, disaffection,allienation, disillusionment – or simply – don’t care let’s grab the TV, Trainers and Mobiles while we can attitude.

    The riots are linked to loss of hope and the loss of a vision for a viable future. The people are doubtful about – the media – police – and authority itself.

    Welcome to a rapidly changing world – brace yourselves!

  133. Tony_opmoc

    10 Aug, 2011 - 1:27 am

    I kind of realised that despite the mayhem, she was determined to travel up to Lancashire to see her Mum who was going through a personal Crisis because her Dad is having some kind of nervous breakdown or suddenly gone geriatric because of the drugs his doctors are giving him…

    I was going to take her to the train station, as for 24 hours I was determined to stay home.

    She said book the ticket – I am going.

    So the credit card was there and she was due to travel very early in the morning.

    I relented and said I will take you.

    As we were leaving we saw the policeman’s bedroom – who lives across the road – with his curtains still drawn in the afternoon…

    The fireman lives next door but one to him..

    Both these guys went through one hell of a lot of shit the previous night…

    As did many of our Friends who they were trying to protect…

    Its easy to slag off the Police, but they are just ordinary people just like us…

    Some of my Son’s friends (as some of mine did when I was younger) volunteer themselves to be Specials. They don’t even get paid. Typically they just help the main police deal with drunks on a saturday night.

    Sure I know that some of them are ……..

    But most Coppers are just trying to do a decent job..much the same as a Nurse.

    PEOPLE GENARILISE TOO MUCH and highlight events that go completely wrong.

    If you think you can do a better job – then volunteer and do it.

    Tony

  134. Courtenay Barnett

    10 Aug, 2011 - 1:31 am

    @ John,
    ” Last night I made this observation. Tonight I learn that of those caught looting one is a university under-graduate, another an armed forces recruit.”

    Just my point John – they are all that I said above – doesnt’t that kind of background beg some rational explanation? Surely!

  135. lwtc247

    10 Aug, 2011 - 4:45 am

    I have to ‘side’ with those that are pointing to Craig’s privileged background (which once supported a very dirty establishment, although his ‘conversion’ is of course wonderful) and his detachment from people who are now (if they weren’t before) permanently trapped in an underclass, where once enveloped, are despised by people who live in comfort. It reminds me of White occupiers of Australia who despise the indigenous people because they are a permanent reminder of the White Crime against those very people. I feel some wealthy people look down on poorer people because they remind them that their wealth was gained in a questionable manner and that people better can be better than than despite of (or maybe because of) having less money. Poor people give away more as a proportion of their income than wealthy people.
    .
    What some, perhaps the majority, of looters are doing is wrong, but Craig’s solution smacks of mid-to-upper class war against those of lower class standing and is too much for comfort. Hardly ‘Liberal’ Craig.
    .
    May I propose you spend some time living as they do Craig to give you insight into their plight, so tht you can feel their desperation?
    .
    Deploy rubber bullets against the scum in Westminster and the Metropolitan police and the horrendous ‘royal’ family.

  136. lwtc247

    10 Aug, 2011 - 5:25 am

    Am I wrong in thinking that so called “Liberalism” is something which is afforded?

  137. A Sad Jester

    10 Aug, 2011 - 6:22 am

    Don’t worry folks the rioting will soon be stopped by a dose of the good old British summer weather. Those Primark hoodies are not waterproof.

  138. mary

    10 Aug, 2011 - 7:06 am

    How absolutely terrible.This was on medialens
    .
    Don’t worry, the EDL are ‘protecting’ the streets!!
    Posted by Anton on August 10, 2011, 5:30 am
    .
    I’m trembling writing this. Where the f#ck is Antifa or someone?!
    .
    “Someone posted this on Facebook “Just got back from Eltham with my man and zoey, Backing up the E.D.L lads. Watched some black guy get trampled on and battered by about 50 of them and then some dude got attacked by police dogs right in front of us, as well as a huge fight on the top deck of a bus between some chavs and police! It’s total madness out there but well chuffed the EDL are protecting the streets” Just wrong, this is the problem with these vigilante groups”

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/c9mnsq

  139. Andy

    10 Aug, 2011 - 7:38 am

    ”the force of society should be brought to bear by the immediate enlistment of any volunteer with no criminal record as a temporary special constable. ”
    .
    It takes a couple of weeks for a Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) check.
    .
    Really a nonsense idea. Sorry.
    .
    Volunteer special constables sounds like something a mad Tory would come up with.
    .
    I’m a very tolerant person but if one of these special constables tried to stop or question me I would tell them to get lost. Then what? Would they have the right to club me over the head?
    .

  140. mary

    10 Aug, 2011 - 7:59 am

    Watch out.There’s going to be a ConDem about! Just heard from the state broadcaster that the ConDems have an iniative to get leading politicians out on the streets to give out a strong message. This is presumably an example of Newton’s third law being put in practice – For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction – etc etc.
    .
    Have just heard the Bishop of Manchester mouthing the most right wing rhetoric about the rioters. No love in the heart of this man of God and little understanding of the social problems. I remember him very well responding in a flirtatious way to Rebekah Brooks in a parliamentary committee when she said that she had heard that Bishops liked the Page Three feature in the Sun. Vile and disgusting creatures both.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_McCulloch#Bishop Note the membership of the Council of Christians and Jews. He is not a very good advert unless they hold to the eye for an eye mantra.

  141. ingo

    10 Aug, 2011 - 8:07 am

    The EDL being the Eltham defense league? or is it the newly formed 350 strong Enfield defense league?

    These vigilante groups spring up, led by hotheads and bullies, they do not think of cooperating their action’s and they walk around looking for trouble, they are no different to the looters.

    That said if the residents of a street defend their homes and shops, that is un derstandable, I would do the same.

  142. John Goss

    10 Aug, 2011 - 8:09 am

    @ Courtenay
    Unfortunately, rational people don’t always behave rationally. Peer -group pressure (like a drug) is strong medicine. If kids don’t take it they have to get themselves another quack (or pusher). There is no quick fix. Leading by example seems to be the way forward. But who can look up to politicians, bankers, stock-brokers, insurance brokers, lawyers, military leaders or the police? There is a wonderful quote from Mario Puzo’s “The Godfather” though I’m probably paraphrasing. “A lawyer with his brief-case can steal more than a hundred men with guns”. These are our exemplars – what chance society?

  143. John Goss

    10 Aug, 2011 - 8:11 am

    It’s early(ish) but how did I leave media moguls from my above list?

  144. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 8:50 am

    People making excuses for these retards really gets on my tits and is the main reason we are where we are. Do you really believe that even if we piled in a whole load of resources over the next 20 to 30 years it’s going to make any difference? The problem starts with parents not willing or being able to discipline their fxxx-witted offspring. Just ask any school teacher in a deprived area about the culture and attitude that a minority of black kids have; and they think they’re being super-cool!

    They like to blame the third-rate resources they’ve been given, but this doesn’t appear to hinder immigrants from Nigeria, Asia or Turkey (plus plenty of other places), their kids WANT to learn and want to work at improving their families living standards. But what do the retards do; bully these kids incessantly and in a growing number of cases they think it’s a laugh murdering them.

    Look at where we’re heading, it’s time to wake up and get real. We really have to start thinking about what kind of society we want and how we’re going to go about achieving it.

    Never mind rubber bullets, it should be made perfectly clear that if you’re looting someone’s shop you stand a good chance of being shot by a real gun.

    My main concern is that all this is going to make any kind uprising against the political establishment and banksters far more difficult.

  145. mary

    10 Aug, 2011 - 9:10 am

    Is Arthuritis some new disease I haven’t heard of? Take a look at this. http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m80335&hd=&size=1&l=e
    .
    As the majority call the looters and rioters – thugs, opportunistic, criminal – they cannot see the greater evil in themselves or that they are condoning the violence being carried on by NATO in their name. Cameron, Hague, Fox et al and all their pals will make sure this film will not be shown on ZBC. One department store is worth a fraction of a tiny child but the population in this benighted country does not think like that.

  146. mary

    10 Aug, 2011 - 9:38 am

    This revolting ad keeps popping up on my BT e-mail home page. The APR of 34.9& must be of great interest to the unteruntermenschen in our BIG society.
    .
    GRANITE
    The card for people with poor credit
    Easy to manage credit limit of up to £500
    You could get a credit increase on your 4th statement*
    Further increases possible every 4 months, up to £3,000*
    Thousands of great discounts with granite rewards
    .
    Apply Now Representative 34.9% APR (variable
    ~~~~
    Granite is part of Northern Rock which we, the taxpayers, bailed out at the cost of £billions. A greater looting than the present ones?
    https://www.granitecard.co.uk/default.aspx
    Wikipedia
    Granite (Northern Rock vehicle)
    .
    Granite is a securitisation vehicle created by the British bank Northern Rock, based in Guernsey.
    ,
    The purpose of Granite is to parcel up the mortgages provided by the bank and sell the value to investors. Granite has a value of around £45 billion.[1]
    .
    Northern Rock, advised by Credit Suisse, have decided to let Granite go into run-off, meaning that Northern Rock the bank will no longer supply it with fresh mortgages and bondholders will be repaid as old mortgages expire.[2]
    .
    In plans made public on 8 December 2009 certain wholesale deposits are to be held by the renamed assets company, Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc, on behalf of Granite.[3]
    .
    References

    1.^ Aldrick, Philip; Griffiths, Katherine (2008-02-20). “The state of Northern Rock: anything but usual”. London: The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 2008-02-22.
    2.^ “Northern Rock calls it a day on Granite vehicle”. The Financial Times. 2008-11-21. Retrieved 2008-11-22.
    3.^ “Government guarantee arrangements for Northern Rock plc” (PDF). HM Treasury. 2009-12-08. Retrieved 2009-12-09.

  147. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 9:43 am

    @ Mary, not a new disease but an old band of the late seventies.
    .
    See there you go making excuses for the retards as that’s what they are.
    .
    It’s a matter of right and wrong. The retards are wrong in rioting and looting, there’s no excuse it’s simply wrong. When you say ‘et al’ I hope you’re including pretty much the whole of the Labour party in this? Yes war is wrong and I believe that in their hearts most of the UK population would agree that it’s wrong.
    .
    Our political establishment(and this includes most parties) is wrong and is all about greed and keeping the masses in their place. But what are we prepared to do about it?

  148. Frazer

    10 Aug, 2011 - 9:58 am

    Shoot a load of them…see what happens then.. Fucking scum.

  149. Andy

    10 Aug, 2011 - 10:23 am

    Frazer ”Shoot a load of them…see what happens then.. Fucking scum.”
    .

    I would say give the bankers a fair trial before shooting them.

  150. Andy

    10 Aug, 2011 - 10:26 am

    Using tear gas to disperse rioters might be a nice idea in theory but above the streets where much of the rioting was happening people live in flats. They would also get gassed.

  151. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 10:35 am

    So Frazer’s right, shoot the scum.
    .
    I’ve been saying for a long time that the bankers need to be shot but no one’s taking me seriously.
    .
    This country (in fact the West in general) is in desperate need of some real leaders who are taken seriously

  152. technicolour

    10 Aug, 2011 - 10:43 am

    “The problem starts with parents not willing or being able to discipline their fxxx-witted offspring. Just ask any school teacher in a deprived area about the culture and attitude that a minority of black kids have; and they think they’re being super-cool!”

    Funnily enough, in case you’re interested in facts, very good teachers I know in inner city boroughs will say that the African boys are often the most boisterous at school precisely because their parents are so strict with them at home. None of them have any serious problems with the children they teach.

    “This country (in fact the West in general) is in desperate need of some real leaders who are taken seriously”

    How about “this country is in desperate need of some elected representatives who take the job they’re paid to do seriously, instead of either being or pandering to right wing knee jerk egoists”?

    Reading Frazer talking about ‘shooting the scum’ by which he presumably means children, makes me sick and sad. But of course, he is being funny. Ho ho, what a joker.

  153. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 10:59 am

    @ Technicolour. Sounds like more excuses. What’s your deterent then: Asbo, two weeks in jail?

  154. mary

    10 Aug, 2011 - 11:00 am

    Fox takes the biscuit and the mickey out of the taxpayers.
    .
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023900/Libya-Liam-Fox-directs-conflict-Spanish-hotel-taxpayers-expense.html
    .
    Sorry Arthur I had not heard of that 70s group.
    .
    Frazer Wash your mouth out.

  155. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 11:17 am

    What you’ve never heard of Arthur Itis and the geriatrics? You should get out more.
    .
    Re: Fox, as I said previously, we need leaders who we can take seriously.

  156. cuthulan

    10 Aug, 2011 - 11:23 am

    This riot was preditable.BUT I am not condoning it!
    Its a universal law , Cause and Effect. Its also the 2nd law of thermodynamics in action.The more you impose law the more you accelerate chaos!!
    The bankers and our Con-Dem government are just as guilty of mindless destruction and EVEN MORE DEATH!!
    Maybe Gaddaffi should declare the rioters the legitimate UK government and the African Union start a “humanitarian democratic” bombing campaign and send in some military advisors?
    If only Cameron could count on the support of the local people like Gaddaffi could,and hand out a million guns to the local citizens, I bet London would becaome as calm as Tripoli is today(DESPITE THE NATO BOMBINGS)
    Blame ethnic youth criominality if you want, I believe these are just opportunist crimes! The real riot started thanks to more police corruption and brutality.With 400 police custody deaths and 0 charges ,it could be called self-defence ,because the police and state onviously will not defend you!!
    Switzerland has 20% immigration , and “ANARCHIST” Direct democracy style government and its youths ALL HAVE GUNS!! BUT it has the least crime and corruption and the highest European living standards, which tends to suggest its not immigration ,anarchism or the youth that is the REAL PROBLEM!!
    IMHO its corrupt “representative democracy” style government aka “elected dictatorship” that is the root cause of all this predictable rioting!
    This would never happen in a TRUE direct demoracy!!

  157. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 11:27 am

    Nicely put Cuthulan.
    .
    C’mon Muammar!

  158. cuthulan

    10 Aug, 2011 - 11:53 am

    Thank you Arthur Itis… are you any relation to an old Edinburgh folk singer that used to play under the name
    “Arthur Itis and his crippling joints” ;-)

  159. technicolour

    10 Aug, 2011 - 11:57 am

    “What’s your deterent then: Asbo, two weeks in jail?”

    No; look at the facts. Youth unemployment in Tottenham was running at 55 percent. The JSA is derisory. There are no jobs. The EMA has been scrapped. Young people cannot afford to go on to education. My ‘deterent’ (sic) would be to give them a society which encourages and supports them.

  160. Guest

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:12 pm

    “My ‘deterent’ (sic) would be to give them a society which encourages and supports them.”
    .
    But that takes time. A lot of time. What would you do in the meantime? How would you clear the streets? How would you ensure the safety of others and their property?

  161. mary

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:23 pm

    Further to Fox’s sunbed lounging -
    .
    Leak of a 70 page Criminal NATO Plan to Occupy Libya
    UAE Would Occupy Tripoli in Post-Gadhafi Libya
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25947
    .
    West Prepares New State Radio, Mass Arrest of ‘Fifth Column’ Opponents of Rebel Regime….
    .
    A 70-page plan detailing Western designs for the occupation of post-Gadhafi Libya, and apparently signed off on by the political leadership of the rebel Transitional Council in East Libya has been leaked, and paints a grim picture of the new regime NATO is planning on installing after the war.
    .
    The plan includes keeping large portions of the Gadhafian security apparatus intact, with a number of the leaders of the brutal regime’s crackdown left in position on condition of loyalty to the new, pro-West regime.
    .
    Even more controversial will be the “Tripoli task force,” a 15,000-man force operated by the United Arab Emirates which will, after Gadhafi is out of power, occupy the capital city of Tripoli and conduct mass arrests of Gadhafi’s top supporters.
    The arrests won’t stop there, as of course they never do for a regime looking to stifle dissent.
    .
    Indeed the plan also includes discussion of a new state radio network that will broadcast orders to the public to support the new government, and warning anti-Gadhafi factions that haven’t endorsed the new regime to stand down. The assumption in the report is that these factions, termed a “fifth column,” would also be arrested. The new state media will of course be necessitated all the more by the NATO attacks on the existing media.
    .
    The Transitional Council confirmed the authenticity of the report, and while the rebel ambassador to the UAE expressed “regret” that the truth had come out he said it was “important that the general public knows there is an advance plan.” It is a plan that likely won’t sit well with the protesters who were demanding democratic reform, nor those NATO members who acquiesced to the war on the assumption that it was doing something other than swapping brutal regimes in Libya.

  162. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:24 pm

    @ Cuthulan No, it’s that old Bavarian Alts Heimer.
    .
    @ Technicolour (shouldn’t that be color?)‘Deterent’ yes I was waiting for someone to spot that, but was obviously too late when I did!
    .
    Again all just excuses I’m afraid (just like Harriet Harman on Newsnight last night) and I along with most people am bored with excuses.
    .
    I agree that we need a society which encourages and supports everyone, not just them. Are we saying that we need a society just like Switzerland (or Germany)?

  163. JT

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:24 pm

    Is Craig Murray suggesting that we do to our youth, what China did to theirs at Tianamen Square in 1989? Shame on him if he is. I thought he knew better than to give a hysterical, knee jerk reaction to these distressing events that we have seen from the mainstream media.

  164. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:29 pm

    Maybe Alts was more Jewish than Bavarian!

  165. Clark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:29 pm

    This argument is getting polarised, which is just another kind of fight.
    .
    YES, the problem is caused by systemic corruption, dishonesty as a way of life and widespread materialism, at ALL levels of society.
    .
    YES, the rioting needs to be forcefully stopped.
    .
    It should never have come to this. Now it has, short-term options are limited, and require force. An announcement of sweeping democratic reform with a commitment to root out corporate/political/media/police collusion and corruption is also needed, but it wouldn’t help fast enough. Of course, only the first of these options will be suggested by the politicians and the corporate media, because only the powerful have a voice.

  166. Jon

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:30 pm

    @Guest – shouldn’t we asking why it hasn’t been done already? The progressive left has been saying this quite consistently since the cuts programme was launched, and of course right throughout the last thirty years.
    .
    Admittedly, we can’t very well say “we told you so”, since progressives in general – imo at any rate – had no idea it was as bad as it now appears. Hopefully the situation will result in some cross-spectrum consensus on the need for decent, publicly delivered education and welfare services.

  167. technicolour

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:30 pm

    OK: reinstate the EMA. Cut class sizes. Re-open youth clubs. Provide free bus travel for under 18′s. Stop turning schools into prisons (CCTV cameras, fingerprinting). Provide more time for exercise. Talk to the children. Scrap university fees. Invest in green technology, which provides more jobs. Give these children a chance.

    That could all be done pretty quickly. In the meantime, a heavy police presence on the streets where locals and families could be hit seems to be doing the trick.

  168. technicolour

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:36 pm

    “Again all just excuses I’m afraid (just like Harriet Harman on Newsnight last night) and I along with most people am bored with excuses.”

    You’re bored of excuses but you can’t be bothered to look at the facts. I’d say you were plain bored, like all these older people who seem to take some kind of feral pleasure in turning on the young. I’m afraid, when they’re running the place, that this will come back to bite you.

  169. OldMark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:38 pm

    ‘I’m trembling writing this. Where the f#ck is Antifa or someone?!’

    Probably drowning in the drivel of their inherent contradictions, Mary.

    1.Dalson Turks & Southall Sikhs standing up to marauding looters- good, very good

    2.The White working class in Eltham & Enfield standing up to maurading looters- bad, very bad

    Meanwhile, up in Brum, the low intensity war between its black & south asian populations that kicked off in Handsworth in 1985, appears to have taken a new turn-

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14471405

    Never mind though- at least the mobs looting in Manchester are doing their bit for the multicultral dream, with Anglo Celt scrotes from Harpurhey & Wythenshaw joining up with the black & mixed race wannabe gangstas from Moss Side. Oh the joys, the joys of our vibrant, diverse, at-ease with itself country!

  170. technicolour

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:44 pm

    “Oh the joys, the joys of our vibrant, diverse, at-ease with itself country!” – so keenly encouraged and promoted by you, dear Oldmark.

    Still, if you don’t know the difference between a group of organised EDL vigilantes and an impromptu alliance of shopkeepers then you are clearly blind. In fact, it’s amazing you can see to type. But how lucky we are that you do.

  171. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:47 pm

    @ Clark and OldMark – At last some people talking sense!

  172. Herbie

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:51 pm

  173. OldMark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:53 pm

    Technicolour- your demented double standards (and those of the Met) are here for all to see in these pictures, and in the differing police response- warnings against ‘vigilantism’ when English people defend their turf, police silence when Sikhs (who are clearedly armed, unlike the EDL badboys of your puerile imagination) do the same.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024358/UK-RIOTS-2011-Sikhs-defend-temple-locals-protect-pubs-Britons-defy-rioters.html

  174. John Goss

    10 Aug, 2011 - 12:59 pm

    I agree Herbie. A good moral story of reform by investing in those normally neglected or banged up.

  175. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 1:06 pm

    I came to this site in the hope of finding political enlightenment only to discover what our politicians are really up against.

  176. technicolour

    10 Aug, 2011 - 1:57 pm

    “demented double standards” – calm down, dear, and try and read what I wrote, instead of what you think I wrote. As for EDl vigilantes; take a look at what my imagination has managed to photoshop: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/

  177. Jaded.

    10 Aug, 2011 - 2:08 pm

    Clark – ‘Of course, only the first of these options will be suggested by the politicians and the corporate media, because only the powerful have a voice.’

    Sure, they will use force rather than change things for the better and lose power. We don’t live in a representative democracy of high standard. In a nutshell, that’s where all our problems stem from. Our M.P.’s don’t represent us at the national level at all. Things are just too bent at the top. How about we all push for a democracy of high standard, then see what problems exist after that? Utopia no, but I bet things will be a lot more rosy! Ideas please?

  178. mark_golding

    10 Aug, 2011 - 2:10 pm

    Well then ‘Arthur Itis’ you have found enlightenment especially in the words of Technicolour – no ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ there.

  179. OldMark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 2:30 pm

    Technicolour

    Your link to Nick Lowles’ website says nothing about last night’s events in Enfield & Eltham, so what point are you trying to make exactly ?

    As I’ve said several times before on other threads, you are a one for moving the goalposts when it suits.

  180. ingo

    10 Aug, 2011 - 2:44 pm

    If the sole response to these riots can be more repression, than the IOC should seriously look at moving or cancelling the Olympics.

    To assume that the upward trend of tution fees, the lack of EMA money and the increasing failure of Osborne’s plans have nothign to do with the overall feeling of society is living in isolation.

    If the Government want to run a peacefull Olypmpics, they best start getting some serious apprenticeship schemes going, I’m sure SONY will see the positve points behind such a strategy.

    Nobody should expect this to be all over now. For example, yesterdays provocative policing in areas that saw no riots, in canning Town, police en masse, one officer shown ‘moving on’ a by prodding him with his baton, again and again, what was going on in this policemans mind?

    Its not possible to keep the peace with a force that is hated for its duplicity, the argument that comes up again and again and it does not wash anymore. If the police is not subject to the law then we will see more of these actions, killing people is illegal and should be prosecuted, examples set, whether you are a public servant or a member of the public.

    The establ;ishment notion of some being better than others for their standing, so often reflected by our law benders and their soldiers, thats what has got them off their charges in the past, complicity by a self serving establishment, with or without the help of working class members. Next years Olympics are in the hands of those who failed to police in the past, does that fill anybody with confidence?

    Today its tank buster training, just seen a couple fly their low level attack routines. yesterday was high altitude flying, could hardly hear them through the low level clouds, but they must have flown above 15.000, it was faint.

  181. Clark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 2:55 pm

    Arthur Itis has supported my suggestion along with OldMark’s. I do not support OldMark’s racial analysis of these riots. What I know of the EDL is that they are violent, provocative racist white young males and include plenty of football hooligans.

  182. technicolour

    10 Aug, 2011 - 2:57 pm

    OldMark, who I can’t be bothered to address, suggested that I had made up EDL vigilantes from my ‘puerile imagination’. I posted a link to a piece revealing that the EDL were organising groups of vigilantes. End.

  183. OldMark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 3:11 pm

    ‘I posted a link to a piece revealing that the EDL were organising groups of vigilantes’.

    The link doesn’t verify, or support your contention, that the anti-looter vigilantes on the streets of Eltham & Enfield last night were EDL activists- as anyone with basic comprehension skills can work out.End.

  184. Arthur Itis

    10 Aug, 2011 - 3:13 pm

    Oh no, the Sally Army had better watch out the New Moral Army is about to march!

  185. OldMark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 3:15 pm

    ‘What I know of the EDL is that they are violent, provocative racist white young males and include plenty of football hooligans.’

    I only agree in part with that description Clark, but, FWIW, I would support a ban on the proposed EDL march thru Tower Hamlets in the current, volatile climate.

  186. technicolour

    10 Aug, 2011 - 3:40 pm

    EDL Vigilantes in Eltham Video
    .
    The EDL have responded to the riots and looting by calling upon members in some locations to prepare to defend their neighbourhoods, homes and families. More information will be posted here this evening. The video below shows EDL vigilantes on the streets of Eltham who will make sure that the looters don’t trash their community.
    .
    http://durotrigan.blogspot.com/2011/08/edl-vigilantes-in-eltham-video.html
    .
    “A far-right wing political party have claimed that they took to the streets of Eltham to “guide” the residents because the police were “unable to control the streets.”
    .
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692872/London-riots-far-right-political-party-protect-Eltham-residents.html

  187. Clark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 4:15 pm

    OldMark, I’m always careful because I don’t trust the corporate media. However, I’ve seen the EDL on YouTube. Their main theme seems to be anti-Muslim. I therefore oppose any EDL march, in any climate, volatile or not, and especially through areas of high Muslim population.

  188. OldMark

    10 Aug, 2011 - 4:32 pm

    So Technicolour, the black kids on the Lewisham bound 321 bus, who made provocative gestures to the white kids, who then threw stones, were returning fron bible classes eh ?

    The text of the Telegraph article BTW merely verifies that the EDL are attempting to join a bandwagon- not that they instigated anything. Your comprehension skills are again a bit lacking.

    You obviously haven’t twigged from my earlier posting, when I left links to the much more violent events in Woolwich the night before (and which received less attention from the Telegraph than the playground spat you link to), that I live in this area. I know full well that there is one pub off the High Street frequented by EDL types- and I avoid it like the plague. The idea however that these guys could ‘orchestrate’ the very minor disturbances in SE9 last night is laughable.

    If Suhahl is reading this, he may like to know that I’ve personally directed Japanese tourists to the marble slab in Well Hall Road erected in memory of Stephen Lawrence. I wonder when he’ll get a similar opportunity to direct tourists to a marble slab built into the pavement close to the spot in Glasgow where Kris Donald was abducted, then beaten, & murdered ?

  189. Suhayl Saadi

    10 Aug, 2011 - 8:51 pm

    Old Mark, I could take you to that spot, or I could take you to the spot where my wife’s pal was raped and strangled to death, or to where Arthur Thomson Junior was gunned-down, or to where a man’s body was discovered, probably murdered by the Triads, or to where last year an old lady was murdered in her flat, or to where a popular, middle-aged radio DJ was stabbed and killed by her family’s friend…
    .
    There are many such spots. Glasgow is the ‘murder capital’ of the UK.
    .
    No slabs anywhere, for black, white or yellow, except in the boneyard.
    .
    For its statuary, I would recommend the Eastern Necropolis. It used to a grove where, in the time before St Kentigern (Mungo), child sacrifice was thought to have been practised by the Celtic High Priests. The blood used to run into the burn. Fertility cult, see.
    .
    Gosh, these riots have given the Far Right their second orgasm in as many weeks: first, their ‘wondrous hero-crusader’, the smiling, Nordic archetype, Breivik and now, across Mata Inglistan, Land of the Raven, this ‘creative destruction’! Golly gosh. What an opportunity to get in on the act! How will the racist Far Right cope with this double climax?
    .
    Ah! What blissful pornography, in the mind of the Fourth Reich!
    .
    One thought, one heartbeat, one song.
    .
    Watch out for the blackshirts-under-the-beds! And on the web.
    .
    A love-song, perchance, amidst the slabs and blood and soil: ‘All Roads Lead to the Vauxhall’.
    .
    Aye.
    .
    Kris Donald’s mother told Nick Griffin to fuck off back to where he came from and not to use her son’s death as any sort of political capital.
    .
    See, here in Scotland, Old Mark, we’re not interested in the Fourth Reich. It’s just another ‘Raven’ delusion. We have Golden Eagles aplenty.
    .
    But if ever Glasgow does take to fire, with most of the most deprived areas in Western Europe within its city boundaries and the worst stats in Western Europe for most parameters, one suspects that it would make the English stuff look like a tea-party.

  190. OldMark

    11 Aug, 2011 - 5:20 am

    ‘No slabs anywhere, for black, white or yellow, except in the boneyard.’

    My point exactly. I can see Suhahl that my drawing attention to how the authorities in Glasgow wish to deal with the Kris Donald murder (ie forget it ever happened & ‘move on’) with how the PTB in London deal with the Stephen Lawrence murder (memorialisation in marble), has clearly hit a nerve with you. The red mist has descended, and you make insinuations about my wanting to establish a fourth Reich ! Pathetic stuff.

    There have been quite a few murders in south London over the years as well Suhahl, in case you hadn’t noticed. I could take you to the offie in Kennington that used to be owned by the brother of one of the Great Train robbers, until he was gunned down by a guy on a scooter outside his home around the corner. Or the pub in Woolwich where thirty years an old school friend of mine was was stabbed to death. We can both recite our lists of atrocious crimes with which we are personally acquainted… not that that’ll achieve anything.

  191. Suhayl Saadi

    11 Aug, 2011 - 3:27 pm

    Madeleine McCann’s case got the most publicity of all. Lots of reasons for that, too. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has written in the Independent about the McCann case, as had Craig Murray on this site, comparing it with the lack of publicity in cases in which other children (inc. black and brown ones) have gone missing. The MSM is after copy which sells bigtime. The Kriss Donald case was solved quickly and efficiently, with the help of the community, the police, the politicians and so on. One Glsgow MP went to Pakistan to help ensure the extradition process of the suspects who had fled there. They were convicted to racially-motivated murder, and rightly so. There was no attempt to seek apologia. No-one has forgotten about it. Communities worked very hard, unsung, unreported, before, dring and since. I know this from personal contacts. Kriss Donald’s mother told Nick Griffin to go back to where he came from and not make political capital out of her son’s murder. The BNP was utterly shameless, descending like vultures.
    .
    You see, Old Mark, you are exhibiting two features, it seems to me:
    .
    1) The MSM, based in London, tend to report what happens within a 100-mile radius of the capital as though it were international news but tends relaively-speaking to be less keen on reporting to the same extent on events from places as far away as Scoland.
    .
    2) I have made the points about the Donald murer before recently on this site, yet you continually bring up the Lawrence murder as though you have a special bugbear wrt this case. The Lawrence murder became a cause celebre because:
    .
    a) No-one has been convitecd of the murder.
    .
    b) Ongoing systemic problems within the Metropolitan Police were identified as the MacPherson report confirmed. These problems contributed significantly to the fact that no-one has been convicted of the murder.
    .
    Hence, possibly, the marble plaque to which you so intensely and persistently object. One wonders exactly why you might object.
    .
    You – like Alfred before you – seem to put forward what ound, at first reading to be ‘reasonable’ arguments, all the while enying allegiance to the BNP/EDL et al. Yet – again, as with Alfred – just about all of the argumentation you have advanbced since starting to contribute to this website has been in line with the policies and views piut forward by the Far Right in general and those organisations in particular.
    .
    I think this is disingenuous. I much prefer the openly Far Right views of someone like ‘Jamie’ (who made some posts on a previous thread, with a sun symbol as their monicker). I would much rather someone come out and say: “I support the BNP nd/or EDL”. But of course then they would have zero credibility, wouldn;t they? And everyone knows this. So, Old Mark, a simple question:
    .
    If there were a general election, or a by-election, tomorrow, and the BNP/EDL were standing, would you vote for them? A simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ would suffice. Thank you.

  192. OldMark

    11 Aug, 2011 - 4:58 pm

    Suhahl- my answer to your question is ‘no’.

    And I don’t object to the marble slab put there in memory- I just resent the fact that the unsolved Lawrence murder has become such a cause celebre, and that by remaining unsolved, it gave birth to the tendentious rubbish extruded in the MacPherson Report, which you so revere.

    More on that report here FYI-
    http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_2_otbie-racism.html

  193. Suhayl Saadi

    11 Aug, 2011 - 7:00 pm

    Thank you, Old Mark, for responding. And may I ask why you would not vote for the BNP/EDL? Is it because you fundamentally disagree with their core ideologies and find these ideologies abhorrent and absurd, or because you agree with their core ideologies but think they that are ineffective political vehicles for these ideologies? Thank you, again.

  194. OldMark

    11 Aug, 2011 - 11:41 pm

    Suhahl- my view is that it is possible to critique the tenets of multiculturalism (as expressed, for instance, in the MacPherson Report) without at the same time subscribing to the ideology expressed by the BNP or Anders Brevik. You, evidently, believe otherwise- hence your line of questioning.

  195. Suhayl Saadi

    12 Aug, 2011 - 8:09 am

    No, Old Mark, I do not believe otherwise. It is possible to critique anything. But I simply asked you this:

    .
    “And may I ask why you would not vote for the BNP/EDL? Is it because you fundamentally disagree with their core ideologies and find these ideologies abhorrent and absurd, or because you agree with their core ideologies but think they that are ineffective political vehicles for these ideologies?”
    .
    You did not render a direct answer, Old Mark.
    .
    I would wager that 99% of the bloggers here would have no difficulty in providing a direct answer to that question if it were posed to them.
    .
    Any chance of a direct answer from you?
    .
    Thank you.

  196. cuthulan

    13 Aug, 2011 - 11:19 am

    @ arthur Itis
    “No, it’s that old Bavarian Alts Heimer.”
    LOL…..oh I forgot about him ;-)

    YES I do think Switzerland is a good model to follow!!!

    IMHO The solution to stopping the riots is easy.
    CALL AN AMNESTY!!
    Announce independent investigations into ALL police custody deaths ,with maximum sentences to follow.It was police brutality and corruption that sparked these riots.
    Announce a stopping of bank bailouts and illegal wars and the start of independent investigations into bank and political fraud ,conspiracy,war crimes and blackmail.With maximum sentences to follow.It is obvious from the mass demonstrations that this is the peoples will
    Announce a direct democracy constitution and hold a vote on the austerity measures(Iceland style,they even arrested thier Prime Minister for financial fraud) We could ALL be debt free tomorrow,its our politions,aka elected dictators, that sell us as debtor slaves!
    The debt is ODIOUS ,the taxpayer has no reason to pay for it!!
    In international law, odious debt is a legal theory that holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, should not be enforceable. Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odious_debt
    ITS THE BANKS AND THE UK REGIMES DEBT NOT OURS!!
    I would also disband the standing army, which just invades other peoples countries and steals thier resourses for big business, all paid for by the taxpayer!!!It makes us LESS SAFE and costs a fortune,in this time of global terrorism and austerity measures!
    A milita army is much cheaper and unbeatable compared to a standing army.Its why Switzerland was never invaded and why Stalingrad wipped out hitlers finest.MILITA ARMIES KICK ASS!!(but they are useless at invading other peoples countries)
    But of course none of this will happen. David “Fawlty” Cameron will continue to blame criminal youths ,immigrants and anarchists and continue to give the brutal police more brutal powers and start cencorship of the REAL FREE PRESS(the internet)and claiming this is democracy!! and will continue his humanitarian wars spreading mindless mayhem and death.
    The rioters have not killed or beheaded anyone yet! I cannot say the same about David Cameron and those he supports!!

  197. cuthulan

    13 Aug, 2011 - 11:58 am

    Another thing…..
    These “riots” all seem very convenient for the police ,MSM and the Cameron government.
    LAST WEEK WE WHERE ALL READING ABOUT MURDOCHS MSM ,CAMERONS CABINET AND THE METROPOLITAIN POLICE FORCE IN COLLUSION ,COMMITTING CONSPIRACY ,TREASON ,BLACKMAIL ,EXTORSION ,MURDER!! Of course murdoch MSM spun on about celebraties phones or something just as irrelevant!!
    TODAY the police are getting shoot to kill powers , maybe they need to do some “house keeping” to stop more beans being spilt!
    the Cameron governemt is getting the population behind them and using youths ,anarchists and immigrants as a scapegoat to point fingers at!!The rest of the world sees oppression and police brutality as the cause!
    And now the MSM has something to print that takes our mind off thier treason and illegalities
    But it could all be coincidence just like Sean Hare deciding to commit suicide just after all his claims are proven true and he anounces there is a lot more to disclose!…and of course the Met Police did not find this suspiscious!?!?!?!? I wonder why?
    THIS ALL SEEMS VERY CONVENIENTLY TIMED FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT

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