The Killing of Mark Duggan

by craig on August 13, 2011 11:15 am in Uncategorized

The Guardian has an interesting piece today on Mark Duggan, whose death sparked the initial rioting. I want to try to approach this as objectively as possible.

The Guardian piece focuses, quite rightly, on the fact that the police yet again seem to have encouraged false information to come out in the immediate aftermath of the killing, particularly to the effect that Duggan fired first. This is part of a worrying pattern – the numerous lies about Jean Charles De Menezes, the false claim that demonstrators attacked police trying to resuscitate Ian Tomlinson.

This is extremely serious because it is part of the picture of the Met, like the rest of government, being much more interested in spin than fact when it comes to dealing with the media. This in turn comes back again to that incestuous web of bungs and consultancy contracts that characterises the Met/Murdoch relationship. The Duggan death shows the police instinct to lie and cover up is as fierce as ever.

But, on the death itself, we have to face the fact that Duggan was no Ian Tomlinson or Jean Charles De Menezes. They were both innocent and unarmed. Duggan was neither innocent nor unarmed. He was a hardened gangster carrying a loaded firearm. I understand the police believed he may have been actually on the way to carry out a “hit” and that is why they stooped him in a public street. I have no reason to disbelieve this.

From the Guardian report:

“Duggan’s family and friends have said that if he was carrying a loaded weapon, they did not believe he would have fired at police.”

That is a highly qualified statement. No doubt that he would carry a loaded weapon, or that he might fire it at somebody else.

Thankfully, being an armed gangster is not a capital offence in the UK and the circumstances described above do not give the police the right to carry out an execution. Obviously something went horribly wrong in the incident, and one possibility must be that the officers, or at least one officer, decided on just such an illegal execution.

But that is by no means the only possibility, and we must also note that this went so wrong that the police injured and could have killed one of their own. It seems most likely that the bullet which passed through Duggan’s bicep was the one that ended lodged in a police radio. How somebody came to open fire when one of his own colleagues was in harm’s way is another important question, and on the face of it would seem to indicate confusion.

The police have harmed their case, perhaps irretrievably in public opinion, by their lack of immediate honesty about whether Duggan fired. But that does not mean they have no case. Duggan was not an entirely innocent man. He is absolutely not, in that sense, in the category of De Menezes or Tomlinson.

I for one do actually want the police to arrest criminals carrying loaded firearms, and I realise that will always be a risky business.

Was this an execution, a botch, or a legitimate response to a leveled weapon? We do not know. The problem is, we can be pretty sure that the well-oiled protection mechanisms that always shield the police from genuine investigation, will kick in again.

The problem, of course, with exoneration of the police in appalling crimes like their execution of Jean Charles De Menezes, is that nobody will believe them when they are in fact in the right. There is a strong possibility they were in the right on this one. They have brought general disbelief upon themselves.

Tweet this post

112 Comments

  1. Louise Gallagher

    13 Aug, 2011 - 11:32 am

    I agree with all of the above except I’ve only heard Mark Duggan carried a gun and was becoming paranoid after the death of a cousin, but I haven’t heard specifics about his actual criminal record. Either way, an initial nervous trigger finger response from one of the police would explain the shooting – the bicep and the radio suggest that.

  2. They responded to early and people were stupid to expect answers too fast unless they wanted to fail the police or make them look stupid as it turned out.

  3. If you want to know what police are capable of, read about the Murder of Daniel Morgan, questions have been asked in the house of commons about this case, Commissioner Sir Paul Congdon said during his appearance before a select committee in dec 1997 that he knew of 100-250 corrupt detectives in the met but they cannot be sacked because they more money and hire better QC’s than the met.a book was written about this subject called “The Untouchables”

  4. I heard on the BBC that the taxi driver has not yet been interviewed by the police!

  5. correction to my above post, it should read 100-150, not 100-250

  6. ‘hardened criminal’ Where is the evidence for that?
    .
    Stirling said he had known Duggan, who was 29, all his life. “Mark Duggan as a person was a nice young man. I’m not saying he was an angel. He had his fair share of problems with the police, but he was a good father. He was the same age as my son – he was like a son to me. He was not a danger to our community.”
    .
    He said a lot of the parents who sent their children to his club were more frightened of the rising police presence than of the violence that has hit central Tottenham. “Parents are frightened of letting their child go to football, in case they come home late and are picked up by the police,” he said.
    .
    Elsewhere local residents and politicians were calling for calm and asking people to wait for the outcome of the police inquiry.
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/mark-duggan-wake-tottenham

  7. “I have no reason to disbelieve this.” – And your reason for believing it is…?

  8. Mary,

    What do you think “I’m not saying he was an angel. He had his fair share of problems with the police” actually means?

  9. Wasn’t it said that the (converted replica) gun was found in a sock? In the vicinity of the cab? Not necessarily in the cab? And if it was in a sock, it would suggest it was never leveled at anyone. In fact, it could have been planted after the event. (Just to keep all options on the table.)

  10. lwtc247

    My source.

  11. dreoilin, Mary, lwtc247,

    Just to be absolutely plain, do you believe any criminals actually exist, or do you believe that all crime is instigated or invented by the state?

  12. Thanks for writing this Craig. You appear to be one of the few left wing commentators not giving Duggan a free pass.

  13. But dreoilin, I don’t think it is an important point. I had presumed he carried the pistol wedged in his sock, rather than in a separate sock. But even if it was in a separate sock, it would most certainly be possible to fire a pistol through a sock without taking it out. But I expect what we will discover is that he carried it at his ankle and took it out from there.

  14. I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed here, especially in the last paragraph.

    However I’m mystified as to why you have only referred to the de Menezes exucution, and the fatal assault on Ian Tomlinson, as yardsticks against which to understand Duggan’s killing.

    The police killing which Duggan’s most closely resembles is that of Harry Stanley in 1999. (I accept that, if you were posted abroad at the time,you may be unfamiliar with it).

    Harry Stanley was shot dead by armed police in Hackney in 1999. Hackney, like Tottenham, is a high crime, diverse, vibrant etc. etc inner city area of London, not too dissimilar from Tottenham, where Duggan met his fate. Harry Stanley was carrying a chair-leg in a plastic bag when he was shot, not a loaded firearm. His killing however did not precipitate protest marches which in short order descended into an orgy of rioting & looting. In fact, for days there was no ‘reaction’ at all by the ‘community’ from which he hailed.

    Perhaps some of your other seasoned commenters would like to consider why the consequences flowing from these 2 police killings were so different. One explanation certainly suggests itself, at least among those of us who sometimes entertain impure thoughts that offend the righteous.

  15. @Craig if yates of the yard is to be believed only one person was ever hacked by the news of the world, he missed the 3999 others.

  16. Perhaps they should let yates of the yard do an inquiry into these riots and he will find that no riots actually took place.

  17. @Sylv
    Of course the taxi driver hasn’t been interviewed by the police, it might blow their “narrative”.
    .
    According to one witness (sorry, don’t have the link), Duggan was tied down and on the ground before she heard four shots. This was in broad daylight, and so far we’re only getting one side of the story.
    .
    I’m sorry to say this, but anything to do with police and drug dealers will always, by necessity, be murky. See:

    UK authorities drug-trafficking and money-laundering

    http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0393
    .
    Much like Afghanistan, only closer to home.

  18. Craig,

    It seems to me that you are placing too much faith in an organization that is blatantly corrupt: from the deaths of Menezes to Tomlinson and Smilie Culture; not forgetting the assaults on Jody McIntyre and Alfie Meadows; and the horrendous collusion between it and the Murdoch Empire; we are presented with the image of a force in total disarray. It therefore seems odd that you would place so much faith in their findings regarding Mark Duggan.

    Also, it is perfectly possible that the police did plant a weapon after the killing. Two reasons for making this point:1) they lied about him shooting a gun (and leaked it to the press anyway) and 2) there is a long history of police corruption (see collusion between RUC and Loyalist mobs in Belfast and note how many people have died in police custody!) This makes Dreolin’s remarks even more feasible.

  19. A talksport presenter called Mike Dicken stated on the radio that senior police control the importation and distribution of hard drugs in the UK, Mike Dicken died in an apparent car accident on a quite country road.

  20. Great link to a great website Luis

  21. Some of you write as if there are no such thing as dangerous armed career gangsters who the police might actually stop occasionally….

  22. Craig wrote: “I understand the police believed he may have been actually on the way to carry out a “hit” and that is why they stooped him in a public street”.
    .
    I’m pretty sure that read somewhere (sorry, I’ve forgotten where, it was on a link I followed, possibly from a previous thread) that Duggan had texted or ‘phoned his fiancee twice. The first time, to say he’d be home in half an hour, put the dinner on. The second, five minutes before he was shot, that he was being followed or was “cornered by the Feds” or something. If anyone can find the article, it may shed some light.

  23. Craig, you wrote,
    “Was this an execution, a botch, or a legitimate response to a leveled weapon? We do not know.”
    .
    You also wrote,
    “The Duggan death shows the police instinct to lie and cover up is as fierce as ever.”
    .
    And when I question where the gun was found and raise the possibility that it *could* have been planted, you ask me,
    “do you believe any criminals actually exist”
    .
    There’s no logic to that at all.
    .
    I was asking the questions that I would ask if I was a member of the IPCC.

  24. dreoilin, Mary, lwtc247,

    Just to be absolutely plain, do you believe any criminals actually exist, YES or do you believe that all crime is instigated or invented by the state? NO.
    .
    answers in capitals.

  25. Craig.
    Personally speaking, I certainly do believe such criminals do exist. I can’t bring myself to accept that they deserve to be shot in cold blood however. Neither do I think they deserve to have evidence planted against them and lies/spin told about their last actions to justify police doing extra-judicial executions. I’d much rather violent criminals were apprehended and IF they shot first, then fair enough, the police have just cause for firing back. That’s the way it should be yes?

    Now whether MD was such a person, I cant say.

    Please beware about your sources. But just because a source tells you something, doesn’t make it true, even if you do trust them strongly; as how can you verify the reliability of your sources’ source? Sources also have their own political slants on things, and I’ll be astounded if one or more of your sources weren’t deliberately feeding you disinformation. I’m sure you get the point.

  26. luis – “I’m sorry to say this, but anything to do with police and drug dealers will always, by necessity, be murky”
    back in the ’70s I knew someone who did sound for the met disco once a year. he said there was a room not everyone could go in with confiscated gear (drugs) laid out for police to help themselves.

  27. Lwtc -
    “Personally speaking, I certainly do believe such criminals do exist. I can’t bring myself to accept that they deserve to be shot in cold blood however.”

    Wait until one of them terrorises you and yours and see how you feel then.

  28. Not Craigs finest piece, but he is trying to play devils advocate I think…

    “I understand the police believed he may have been actually on the way to carry out a “hit” and that is why they stooped him in a public street. I have no reason to disbelieve this.”
    On the other hand I have NO REASONS to believe this!
    The PEACEFUL protest about his shooting led to an unarmed 16 year old being beaten by 15 police. The police blame criminal youths for the riots.

    “Duggan’s family and friends have said that if he was carrying a loaded weapon, they did not believe he would have fired at police.”
    There is still NO PROOF he was armed! Gangster? What proof? Maybe he was a “pot” salesman, something legal in a lot of liberal civilsed countries. therefore a criminal and gangster only in the eyes of the state! Alcohol salesmen are illegal is some “civilsed” countries!

    ” It seems most likely that the bullet which passed through Duggan’s bicep was the one that ended lodged in a police radio.”
    I suppose you believe in the “magic bullet” explaination for JFK as well!

    “There is a strong possibility they were in the right on this one”
    I disagree ,it looks more like the usual Met police covering up thier criminal actions, and thus making thier colleagues aiders and abettors. For the Ian Tomlinson and Charles de Mandeze case to have gone so far on lies takes a POLICE CULTURE OF CRIMINALITY. Not a few bad apples!

    The police force is just as corrupt as the government and the media.
    It was the police , government and media and thier conspiracy and collusions that they where all facing serious criminal trails LAST WEEK!
    Though the MSM went on about celebraties phones!!
    THIS WEEK the police are getting shoot-to-kill orders ,when it was a police shooting and beating that started the riots!!
    Cameron is calling himself the head of “the new MORAL army”?!?!?!?and blaming immigrants the youth and anarchists!! A Divide and Rule policy!!
    And the corrupt MSM is fanning the flames of social unrest ,blaming ,immigrants ,youths and anarchists …the same people the government and police are blaming!
    Coincidence?
    It all seems very convenient for the corrupt establishment!!

  29. What the Police have been doing isn’t spin. Spin is a politician, on being given news of a 50% rise in truancy, saying that the government have made great strides in lowering class sizes. Technically true, but not a fair representation of the situation.

    What the Police are doing is lying to protect one of their own from prosectution for murder, and the higher ranks from a charge of incompetancy.

    The Duggan case might be different from the Tomlinson/de Menezes cases in that Duggan seems to have been engaged in some kind of criminal endeavor where Tomlinson/de Menezes were killed whilst doing nothing wrong. That doesn’t make the Police any less guilty of lying about the Duggan case.

  30. Manual of Guidance on the Management, Command and Deployment of Armed Officers, Second Edition is worth a read:
    .
    http://www.npia.police.uk/en/docs/Firearms_06.08.10_locked.pdf
    .
    The latest version of this manual and all relevant updates are published on: www(dot)polka(dot)pnn(dot)police(dot)uk yet the site does not exist!!
    .
    Notice the manual is littered with proportional and reasonable force. Read the ECHR articles 2 and 3.
    .
    I am no lawyer but believe a strong case can be built against police action using their own manual!

  31. Stephen Morgan

    13 Aug, 2011 - 3:34 pm

    “Some of you write as if there are no such thing as dangerous armed career gangsters who the police might actually stop occasionally….”
    .
    Any decent career criminal won’t be stopped by the police because he’ll be paying them off. Only small fry get stopped.
    .
    Duggan: what we know is that his dad was a gangster, and that a gun was found “in the vicinity” of his death, one other than the massive arsenal trained on him by the fuzz. Also, he had run ins with the police which could mean being stopped and searched, even I’ve been stopped and searched, or could mean doing time for armed robbery. We don’t know. All we know is that his gun, if it was his gun, wasn’t fired, and that he still ended up filled full of lead.
    .
    Based on that sort of “evidence”, I find it rather distasteful that you would believe anything the police say while speaking ill of the dead. Who they killed. While they offer no evidence beyond their word, which is worth jack shit.

  32. “I have no reason to disbelieve this.”

    Smacks of Establishmentese like ‘there is no evidence that.. ‘ or ‘ there are no plans to..’. Surely in the wake of the Menezes/Tomlinson incidents there are at least grounds to reserve judgement. I should have thought that we all had ample precedent for treating a police claim – any police claim – with caution.
    .
    The police are a pretty bad lot. Me too, I must admit. In a risky youth spent in some risky places I had a friend arrested for assault. ‘It wasn’t me’ he said, perfectly truthfully. ‘I know, but you’ll do’ the constable said. I could multiply such examples many, many times over. I can get close to guessing what it feels like to be black in an English city.
    .
    No reason to disbelieve? Plenty reason to disbelieve.

  33. Robert Baggott

    13 Aug, 2011 - 3:48 pm

    What exactly! do we know about Mark Duggan?.You attest he was a hardened criminal,well who do you cite.The media and only the media have made this claim usually quoting the same man,a Mr Local Resident.His girlfriend does not picture him as a hardened criminal,she says he has never been charged with a crime,never been to jail,had been on remand once.Who to believe,the person that knew him the best or people that in all probability do not exist.Your next uncorroberated claim,that Mark Duggan was carrying a gun.Carrying is very specific,it means it was on Mark Duggans person.Who has ever claimed that Mark Duggan was CARRYING?.The media and only the media,AGAIN! because the IPCC have clearly only ever said,”A gun was found at the scene”.At the “scene” is EXTREMELY! vague,it does not even mean it was inside the cab or even belonged to Mark Duggan.The family have said they do not believe he owned a gun,they are talking IF’S and if’s is mere speculation.
    Jean Charles de Menezes was as much a bomb carrying,illegal immigrant, rapist as Mark Duggan is a gang affiliated,drug dealing,gun waving criminal.This is the logical standing point at this specific time.If Mark Duggan is the person the media say he is?if he led a double life that his family was not aware of? if he really was a Yardie gangster? then I want a lot more than unsubstantiated quotes from unsubstantiated people,making unsubstantiated claims based on nothing.The only fact is that we don’t know any facts,about Mark Duggan’s life or his death.The media have destroyed Mark Duggan’s character,just like they did with Jean Charles de Menezes.They damn well had better be right,because Mark Duggan was a well liked ,well respected member of the black community,not a lone man thousands of miles from home.When his brother said”Mark was a good man” he is obviously talking about the real Mark Duggan and not the cartoon character.

  34. Welcome to Los Angeles, London, where thugs do indeed roam the streets and cops can be the biggest gang of all.

    The police say Duggan did not fire at them. They also do not say he drew a gun, something they would certainly make a point of saying if he did.

    If the corruption at IPCC is at the levels that it sometimes gets at LAPD and Duggan was a serious career criminal, then this could could get seriously murky. (In Rampart, corrupt cops shot gang members without cause, planted drugs on them, framed them, sold drugs themselves, and even robbed banks.)

    LAPD Rampart scandal
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal

    Xinhuanet reports on IPPC statements
    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-08/13/c_131046460.htm

    “The IPCC’s first statement, issued at 22:49 on August 4, makes no reference to shots fired at police and our subsequent statements have set out the sequence of events based on the emerging evidence,” it added.

    “However, having reviewed the information the IPCC received and gave out during the very early hours of the unfolding incident, before any documentation had been received, it seems possible that we may have verbally led journalists to believe that shots were exchanged as this was consistent with early information we received that an officer had been shot and taken to hospital,” according to the statement.

    “Any reference to an exchange of shots was not correct and did not feature in any of our formal statements, although an officer was taken to hospital after the incident,” IPCC said.

  35. Robert,

    The truth will out, not least at the inquest. You are going to look very foolish. Of course his family and friends deny he was a gangster (though not in definitive terms – see the quote in my post above and the exchange with Mary in comments). I can find you plenty of quotes from the Kray twins’ family and friends on what decent blokes they were, too.

    My sources are not media sources. Duggan was an armed criminal. Of course that does not mean he should have been executed. There will be an inquest, with a jury. But the failure of the ideologically blinkered ever to believe anybody is a criminal is absolutely sickening.

    I am reminded why I have never accepted the term left-wing to cover my thinking. It is because many of those who do march under that banner are ever ready to deny truth for the sake of ideology.

    There have been scores of murders involving weapons in London among young black people in recent years. It is a widely acknowledged social problem among the black community.

    Are those also all carried out by the police and framed on young black men?

  36. There’s a Daily Mail hatchet piece here:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025259/London-riots-Mark-Duggans-uncle-Desmond-Dessie-Noonan-crime-lord.html
    .
    with a big splurge on Duggan’s family background, including the fact that his uncle was a big crime boss in Manchester.
    .
    Near the top of the page it says:
    .
    “And in a further indication of Duggan’s gangland links, investigators said yesterday that at the time of his death he had a fully-loaded Italian-made handgun wrapped in a sock.
    .
    “Criminals often fire their weapons from inside a sock to avoid leaving forensic evidence and to catch cartridge cases.” [As defense lawyer I'd say, "Objection! Speculation!"][The Daily Mail left no stone unturned]
    .
    “Yesterday the Independent Police Complaints Commission confirmed that Duggan’s weapon – a BBM ‘Bruni’ pistol containing live rounds – was hidden in a spare sock, not one he was wearing.”
    .
    If you scroll down to the sub head “Police watchdog admits it may have wrongly led journalists to believe Mark Duggan shot at officers before his death” you find,
    .
    “A non-police issue handgun, converted from a blank-firing pistol to one that shoots live rounds, was recovered close to the scene of his death.”
    .
    That doesn’t sound like an Italian-made BBM ‘Bruni’ pistol to me. So which was it. And notice, “was recovered close to the scene of his death”. Not recovered “on him” or “in the cab”. Had he got out of the cab? How close is “close”?
    .
    Aside from that, the Daily Mail has done a hatchet job of guilt by family association. They say he was a member of a gang, but they list no crimes, other than quoting a primary teacher who said he once brought a knife to school. Included eventually is this:
    .
    “But friends say Duggan was planning to marry 29-year-old Semone Wilson, his partner of 12 years, and move away from Tottenham to raise their two sons, aged ten and seven, and 18-month-old daughter.
    .
    “In recent months Duggan, who liked to be photographed wearing chunky jewellery and holding his fingers as if they were a pistol, is said to have become obsessed with the death of his cousin Kelvin Easton, 23, another gang member, in a row over drugs and a woman.
    .
    “Easton was stabbed through the heart with a broken champagne bottle at a nightclub in east London last March.
    .
    “Duggan is said to have become ‘paranoid’ about his own safety and carried a gun for protection.
    .
    “One source said he was planning to avenge the death.” [What source??]
    .
    And what do you know about the inquest, Craig?

  37. Robert Baggott

    13 Aug, 2011 - 4:16 pm

    Mark Duggan, the hardened criminal who knew he was being followed by Police,who knew he would get 10 years just for carrying a gun,decides to have a shoot out with a van full of police despite only having one bullet.

    Yeah that makes sense.NOT!

    Dum Dum bullets don’t ricochet do they?,so the bullet,must!,have passed through the soft tissue of Mark Duggan’s arm into a Policeman on his other side.This really is a bizarre scenario that is going to take some explaining.The shot cop should be dead,maybe he will be so pissed off as to actually want to tell the truth.

  38. de Quincy's Ghost

    13 Aug, 2011 - 4:18 pm

    “Duggan was not an entirely innocent man”
    .
    Of what, was he not innocent ? Do you mean he had previously been found guilty of specific offences, by the justice system that we use for this purpose ? And, the police may well have ‘believed’ he was this, that or the other. That doesn’t distinguish this case from one like de Menezes, where they also ‘believed’ he was a very bad man. Of course they did, they wouldn’t have shot him otherwise. Their belief was mistaken. It can happen.
    .
    I’m not arguing for or against any of the viewpoints on offer, I’m asking why such a hurry to announce our opinions as fact before we know very much ? Especially given that some of the original facts have turned out not to be so, already.

  39. Robert,

    err, if you read my article I said exactly the same thing about the bullet. On the face of it, this indicates some confusion and panic rather than a clincil execution.

  40. DeQuincy’s Ghost,

    Carrying a gun is an offence already. He did have a record but I don’t have details yet.

    Yes he was carrying a loaded gun. It was not planted on or by his body. Such things are of course not impossible, but in this case it was not. Those determined to believe he was an entirely innocent man are so blinded by ideology as to be demented.

  41. I hope that the full truth come out. I am prepared to consider that the police had targetted this individual and that the timeline of the incident will be established. But the facts do not look good nor can they be defuted by some hints from the sidelines, I would be well aware of the explosiveness of this issue.
    To discriminate what follows from the shooting incident might be possible in law, but the context of the two has to stand as they are connected.

    What led the police to beat up a 16 year old with overwhelming force, when they full well knew that there was tension, when they could have expected that the public would react to their blatancy, what was the reason for creating this diversion and what were their orders towards the rest of the community?

    How much have their action been influenced by the past Broadwater estate incident next door?
    What did they then knew immediately after shooting Mark Duggan?, Did they know that the munition came from their own guns, that they made a mistake, at the time of beating the girl?
    Was this a panic reaction by the police who needed to create a diversion from their mistake?

    because if it was not a mistake, then it was a shoot to kill event and the gun was a cover. How did it get into the bushes, if thats were the gun was found, if the police was surrounding the taxi?
    If I were a lawyer, I would have access to all the information, well, if they were prepared to part with it, but without such insight, their position does not look good.

    If they have information and or phone taps that prove otherwise, then it might be a good idea to have that inquest very soon.

    BTW. I am appalled at the actions to throw out a council tennant just because her son took part in the riots. Did we turf out Elliott Morley and cut his substantial pay whilst he was being investigated. Did Dominic Grieve whilst being investigated had to pay his own way or sleep round a friends house?

    Others are petitioning to turn these rioters into proper criminals, by taking all their benefits away, once again knee jerk reactions that has reciprocity anywhere else.

    So these youngsters are finished then, they have to turn to criminality full time, I’m sure that sort of US justice goes down nicely with the rightwing voters the ConDems are trying to attract back into the fold, almost desperate, but I find that it is merely an indication on how defunct and devoid of ideas they really are. Onwards, towards, more and more fear creating riots. I despair at the stupidity that is offered as a solution.

    When you say that the truth will out, not lest at the inquest.
    Yes if there is an inquest, what of the inquest on Azelle from 2006? will that inquest be taking place before or after the Olypmpics?

  42. Confusion and panic were what killed de Menezes. Armed police officers should not be getting confused and panicky. If that’s their bent, they should not be in an armed unit.

  43. “Those determined to believe he was an entirely innocent man are so blinded by ideology as to be demented.”
    .
    I’m not determined to believe he was innocent. And I’m not blinded by ideology because I don’t have any “ideology” to be blinded by. I’m wondering why lies were told about his death already.

  44. We don’t actually know that Duggan was carrying a gun, only that one was ‘found’ at the scene. Of course the most likely explanation is that it was his but we don’t know that is true yet.

    Also, I don’t know who your source is Craig but if it’s police, why do you believe them any more than the police who publicly claimed that Duggan shot first?

    There are gang members and gang members. A ‘gang’ may be a bunch of mates who trade in a bit of cannabis in their local area or they could be co-ordinating serious organised crime. Both would explain Duggan getting his ‘fair share’ of police attention (mind you, so would being a black person in a built up area) but if the latter were the case and he’s never been charged with an offence then it’s an inevitable conclusion that he has illicit police contacts helping him out. That’s another issue the police need to have a look at.

    And of course, even gangsters can be good fathers, apart from perhaps the moral compass bit.

  45. Background information for an investigation:-
    Duggan – general background
    Family background?
    Any previous convictions?
    Occupation?
    All know sources of income?
    Standard of living relative to known legitimate earnings and/or savings?
    Night of incident facts?
    Last known police recoding of suspicious conduct?
    Specific information as to the targeting of Duggan on day of his death:-
    i) Nature of information with police relative to the day of the fatal shooting?
    ii) Specific reason for the operation against Duggan on the day?
    Criminal associations
    Any close family involved in gansterism and/or criminal conduct?
    Any direct association with organised crime and/or gangsterism and/or criminal conduct?
    Any motive by the police to target Duggan relative to any criminal associations – if so – for specifically what?
    Any motive on the part of any police to take revenge on Duggan?
    Shooting of Duggan’s cousin
    When and where shot? – fatal or injured?
    Any criminal connections of cousin?
    Any criminal connections between Duggan and his cousin?
    Any motive flowing from the cousin’s shooting to have placed Duggan in fear of his life (i.e. did Duggan have a motive – independent of his own alleged criminal intent to be on a mission that day – or – was it possible that Duggan, while having an illegal weapon, did have it because of fear for his personal safety?)

    Presence of firearm at scene alleged to be Duggan’s firearm:-
    i) Crime scene photograph of firearm in situ.
    ii) Name of person who first spotted the firearm.
    iii) Chain of custody of firearm to lab or police station and detailed written records of dusting for fingerprints and results of DNA assessment to link weapon to Duggan – to establish whether or not the weapon had been in the possession of Duggan before the shooting ( n.b. this step assumes for credible results, that this forensic exercise is carried out with integrity).
    This is not an exhaustive list, but if the investigation is going to be thorough, then this is a starting point.
    Do I know the answers ? No – I do not. When the answers start coming in, a better picture will emerge. Still early days.

  46. Craig Murray: “I am reminded why I have never accepted the term left-wing to cover my thinking. It is because many of those who do march under that banner are ever ready to deny truth for the sake of ideology.”

    Really? Hmm, two problems with his:

    1) liberalism is an ideology – it just pretends that it is not by taking on the ascetic mantel of idealism
    2) if the left are ‘ready to deny truth for the sake of ideology’ – a comment with no evidence to back it up – then the liberal are ‘ready to deny the truth for the sake of believing the state to be a benevolent player’.

    So we are at a cross-roads, no?

    I’d call this a slur against the left. I also argue that it is completely unwarranted. The above comments are making the very much valid case that the Met is a corrupt organisation and are perfectly capable of obstructing justice – as recent events prove. Do tell me what this has to do with elementary terms like ‘the left’? A rather cheap shot, no?

  47. If it’s proven Duggan was a criminal and was carrying a gun and was on his way to shoot someone, i’ll find the police actions here more understandable and i admit it’s possible the police are telling the truth about it.

    However the Metropolitan police have lied so many times about deaths they’ve caused that i’ll wait a while to see whether any of the things the police have told the police about Duggan are true. His friends saying he was “no angel” and had been in trouble with police before does not show they’re saying he was a gangster with a gun on the way to kill someone.

  48. @ Craig

    I’d like to remind you of the well known legal statement that one is ‘innocent until proven guilty’. If one starts to analyse this case on the basis that an individual is immediately guilty – and presents no evidence that proves his conclusions – then surely one is not acting in an objective manner? Why not await further evidence until rushing to the conclusion that he is/was a thug? Does it really help your cause by saying that those who disagree with you are simply “blinded by ideology as to be demented.” I have not witnessed any ideological arguments above. What I have read are comments that have expressed a critical attitude concerning your faith that the system will sufficiently investigate itself. I have noted arguments touching on the corrupted nature of the Met and on the already obvious screw-ups made by the IPCC. I believe you are rather out of line in making the suggestion that any disagreement to your position presents itself as some form of senility to the ‘truth’. The jury as you well know is ‘still out’.

  49. I was talking on my FB to friend’s daughter who happen to be a Police officer. as far she and her friends were concerned, what police did was absolutely justified, they would do the same if they believed someone had a loaded gun!. When I suggested having a gun did not mean that it was going to be used against the police, they started throwing insults, what the F I thought? should they wait until there a bullet had lodged in their body, etc,etc.. to me that showed the mentality of police officers today.(or maybe this is how they are trained), if you think someone has a gun, then use your gun, kill him, and to hell with the consequences.

  50. The flames are being fanned here. The EDL and the right wing must be loving it.
    .
    I really think you are way off track on this Craig.
    .
    Meanwhile the bastards persecute this good woman. You will not find a mention of this arrest on the corporate media.
    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1313245412.html
    .
    and while I am at it, there is another thread on medialens which is critical about this piece.
    .
    ‘Good night and good luck’ as Ed Murrow used to say. There was a good film made by George Clooney with that title.

  51. de Quincy's Ghost

    13 Aug, 2011 - 5:25 pm

    “Those determined to believe he was an entirely innocent man are so blinded by ideology as to be demented.”
    .
    That’s pretty much a tautology, isn’t it ?
    .
    Hopefully, the inquest will give us some truth, as you say. In the meantime, some of what we’ve been told people knew has turned out to be wrong, and more of it seems confused. Gives the impression of panic, to me too. So I’ll wait to “believe” stuff until there’s a more complete view of the relevant facts.

  52. If he did have a gun i’d have little sympathy with him and a fair amount of sympathy with the police – but the police have lied so often i don’t feel i can take any of their claims as fact without waiting for an inquiry (and in the De Menezes inquiry we only found out the full truth because IPCC staff leaked information and were prosecuted for it, not due to the IPCC investigation itself)

  53. “Wait until one of them terrorises you and yours and see how you feel then.”

    If it made me feel that criminals deserved to be shoot on the spot in cold blood, then I guess that I wouldn’t be happy living in a Country that has due process, and where ex-judicial killings are illegal. So if you live in such a Country, are you going to lump it, in a democratic sort of way, or are you going to leave for somewhere else to live, more to your liking ?

  54. de Quincy's Ghost

    13 Aug, 2011 - 6:03 pm

    Macky – yes. Exactly. It’s horrifying me, to see how many people seem ready to ditch the big important stuff in favour of some smaller idea of “us against them”.

  55. There is a possible explanation as to why ex-cocaine snorter David Cameron drafted in that NY cop. Perhaps Cokeheed is firing a ‘shot’ across the bows of the Met showing them he realises they are one united seething mass of liars and incompetents who have gone beyond govt control and can’t be trusted to investigate themselves. Then again, maybe not – and the suggestion is rather kind to the old snorter, who really probably doesn’t give a toss about what met does. It was a weird thing to do though and just as weird for that other ‘top’ cop to speak out publicly about it.

  56. Excuse, a minor fit of technical curiosity. Why do some comments come alongside the name bit, and others below ? So try a shorter name & see if it’s that.

  57. Uh huh …

  58. Even if your source, Craig, is totally unimpeachable, there is something not right here. Mark Duggan, might be linked to criminal activity, and nobody as far as I can see posting on this blog is defending criminals, or criminal activity, but his character should not be assassinated by the media, (the integrity of which has taken a big hit in recent months) until all the facts are known. Saddam Hussein was a bad man, therefore a kangaroo court can have him hanged without hearing a defence. Can that be right? I should like to have heard his defence because I don’t believe in kangaroo courts, and I think he might have had something valuable to say about his dealings with the United States, and he did not have Weapons of Mass Destruction. Likewise with Osama Bin Laden. Likewise with Nicolae Ceauşescu. But dead men tell no tales. And it is difficult to offer a defence on their behalf.

  59. lwtc247 – I saw a remark somewhere (I can’t remember if it was here; if it was, it may even have been yours) suggesting bad blood between the politicians & the met over the NotW stuff, using this issue to settle scores ? (Also, I doubt if a determination to cut police funding would help, while simultaneously insisting they should have been working even harder)
    .
    I rather felt that Hugh Orde’s remarks on the simple practicality of water-cannon was worth more than all the mobs out howling for them to be used. Even if our prime minister was among the latter. He’s not showing up well, that one.

  60. we are merely reacting to some media scribes desperate to make some cash from this misery, with a few words thrown in from the sidelines.

    Why don’t we wait for the inquest and ignore these little tit bits thrown to the media to sent them this and that way?

    best is not to blog about it at all, keep these little releases to yourself, we are obviously far too leftwing to comprehend any of it.

    I shall now go and pick two Aubergines, grab a garlic and the Mouli and then go to Mother in laws annual birthday bash.
    leave you with Norwich latest invention rivalling sliced bread, she is able to say everything she heard from above, poor little thing will become PM one day if she’s not carefull.

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/time_to_evict_anti_social_families_in_norwich_says_city_mp_1_993379

  61. “The truth will out, not least at the inquest.” – Craig you didn’t just say that did you???
    .
    1) 7/7 Inquests: The 7 July Inquest Verdict : http://77inquests.blogspot.com/2011/05/77-inquests-7-july-inquest-verdict.html

    2) Attorney general rules against Dr David Kelly inquest h_ttp://w_ww.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13709515
    .
    3)…
    .
    .
    You haven’t been eating ‘fringe haggis’ lately by any chance have you?

  62. “You are going to look very foolish.”

    Maybe he will, but what isn’t a maybe, Mr Murray, is that by posting the following comments;

    “If the odd looter gets killed by the police by accident by a baton round, I would view that as very sad but something they brought upon themselves”

    “the failure of the ideologically blinkered ever to believe anybody is a criminal is absolutely sickening. “

    “so blinded by ideology as to be demented.”

    “I am reminded why I have never accepted the term left-wing to cover my thinking. It is because many of those who do march under that banner are ever ready to deny truth for the sake of ideology.”

    You have succeeded in coming across as having a very worrying nervous breakdown, a la Christopher Hitchens over 9/11, or George Monbiot over Nuclear Power (following Fukushima), Juan Cole over Libya, etc; so shall we now also expect that your moral compass, not to mention your normally rational common-sense will undergo a polar reversal ?

    It seems that the recent riots have triggered into overdrive your innate loathing of what you termed the “contemptible urban sub-culture driven by a detestation of education and an avid materialism”, to such an extent that it has overridden & defiled your self-defined “Human Rights Activist” persona; it may come as a surprise to you, that many of whom you accuse of being blinkered & demented, also may share your detestation for a certain urban sub-culture, but at the same time recognised that the Rioters are also Humans, and as such also have Rights, like the right not to be executed for stealing a pair of trainers; In the Middle Ages, people were executed for stealing bread etc, so as it really seems that you want us to go back to the barbaric Medieval Ages, here’s a little rhyme that just seems so appropriate;

    They hang the man and flog the woman
    That steals the goose from off the common.
    But let the greater villain loose
    That steals the common from the goose.

  63. Reasonable post, Macky.

  64. Some interesting high quality images of pissed-off people all over the world:
    .
    http://cryptome.org/protest-series.htm

  65. YugoStiglitz

    13 Aug, 2011 - 8:34 pm

    “You have succeeded in coming across as having a very worrying nervous breakdown, a la Christopher Hitchens over 9/11″

    Macky, in a strong field, that is quite a fantasy.

  66. You sense an underlying current Mary, which of course there is. A smokescreen for what? The answer is easy of course, communication the message is hard.

  67. People are worried folks. OK – Brits are resilient and the move to action ‘overdrive’takes time, yet the shift is moving. A Facebook group given advice on self-sufficiency in case of economic crash has gone from 50 to nearly 500 members in two days. I have received at least 700 post emails from this group over 24hrs.

  68. @HERBIE,

    “White is the new black…”

    And more importantly – ” Lies are the new truth”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself.
    CB

  69. Macky, as far as one is aware, Craig is not having a “nervous breakdown”. I must emphasise that point. He just has views and like the rest of us, is trying to ascertain the truth from the currently limited information available.
    .
    Duncan, De Quincey’s Ghost, yes, exactly. Good points.
    .
    I’m not sure why ‘the Left’ constantly comes in for such bashing hereabouts. ‘Marxist!’ is hurled as insult (not by Craig, I hasten to add) at anyone who expresses a view to the left of Attila the Hun on almost any matter.
    .
    I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that there are no gangsters or that the state commits all crimes. I know what you mean, Craig, about knee-jerk responses; these responses irritate me too. But perhaps such responses are, as you suggest, because the police have lied so many times, so it’s hard to believe them in relation to such dynamics even if they did tell the truth. And in this case, it seems clear that what you call their spin machine – systemic lying apparatus – almost automatically came into operation. If that is the case, then something major must be done to address it.
    .

    Larry Levin’s fascinating point about corruption in the Met is poignant. How many officers are involved in the drug trade, and might want to shut someone up for reasons unconnected with law enforcement? Are we talking a ‘Colombia’ effect? I think these questions need to be asked. After all, if some officers are willing to take bribes from News International, once that particular Rubicon has been crossed, why wouldn’t they take payments from drug overlords as well? This needs to be looked into in a systemic manner, just as it was in the 1970s, when many detectives, eg. in the vice squad and the drug squad, were found to be corrupt; some were jailed as a result.
    .

  70. Organised crime also has close links with the intelligence and security services. Look at Arthur Thompson Senior in Glasgow, for example He allegedly (according to his biographer, Reg MacKay) was spying for MI5 wrt Northern Ireland arms trading and he allegedly continued to shipping arms – with MI5′s full knowledge – to the Unionist Paramilitaries in Northern Ireland where the arms where the arms were sued to kill Catholic citizens – mainly civilians – of the United Kingdom. Sometimes these murders – and those engineered by the British Army through their own paramilitary Force Research Unit, then often would be blamed on the IRA. Special Branch – part of the police – also were intimately involved with all of this in Northern Ireland.
    .
    Usual prefixes, http:// but no www reqd.
    .
    britisharmykillings.org.uk/product/422-21/Brigadier-Gordon-Kerr
    .
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_Research_Unit
    .
    I write about this here, simply to illustrate the depth of systemic evil to which the state has already descended domestically and internationally and to illustrate some of the links b/w the two theatres of operation.
    .
    In view of all this, I think we are right to have a high index of suspicion. It may not be as simple as ‘botched operation versus extra-judicial execution’ – important as that is. It is what may lie beneath that should concern us.

  71. Robert Baggott first writes, correctly-

    ‘What exactly! do we know about Mark Duggan?’

    As Courtenay Barrett also correctly states, there are many things about him we don’t yet know conclusively, including-

    1. His sources of income
    2. His police record, if any
    3. Whether he even co-habited with the mother of most of his children (we know that, in accordance with the inner city norm, he wasn’t interested in marrying her)

    given this, why does Baggott then write, in knee jerk leftie indignation mode-

    ‘The media have destroyed Mark Duggan’s character,just like they did with Jean Charles de Menezes.They damn well had better be right,because Mark Duggan was a well liked ,well respected member of the black community.’

    On what basis, other than quotes from his principal girlfriend, does Baggott know that Duggan was a ‘well respected member of the black community.’ ?

  72. Old Mark, the nuanced presentation of your views, when asked by me to expound them, on the other thread seems not to accord with your seemingly unremitting sloganeering elsewhere. Your constant attempts to distill what are very complex situations into single simplistic, dualistic narrative belies the avowed thoughtfulness of your stance. Virtually every single post you make on almost all subjects seems to evince your prepossession with what used to be called ‘race relations’.
    .
    The case of the gentleman shot holding a table-leg received an enormous amount of publicity, as did (in Scotland), the Kris Donald murder. As did Ian Tomlinson’s killing. As did Madeline McCann’s disappearance.
    .
    Yet you persist in attempting to suggest that black and brown people somehow are treated preferentially over white people. I wonder whether you might have had some or other unfortunate experience in this regard, yourself, to make to so fixated on what call “the affirmative action” movement?

  73. Robert Baggott

    14 Aug, 2011 - 11:47 am

    On what basis, other than quotes from his principal girlfriend, does Baggott know that Duggan was a ‘well respected member of the black community.’ ?

    There have been many quotes to the same effect,including by community leaders but I will concede to your point.Maybe the girlfriend,various friends and community leaders have all sat around and conspired to re-invent Mark Duggan.I don’t know these people so yes! I am making assumptions.On the opposite side of that coin there are things that I do know for a fact.I know that there are groups of people who sit around conspiring amongst themselves.They have been caught out conspiring,and planting,and feeding untruth’s.I am talking about the Police themselves and I am talking about the media and Politicians who make up a three headed hydra for whom the word truth has no meaning.I will not feel foolish if Mark Duggan turns out to be the flaming antichrist,I will not feel foolish if the girlfriend,and others,who say he is not a gangster turn out to be full of crap.I would ,however, feel foolish,if I put my trust in the media narrative of Mark Duggan,only to find out,later in the line,that most of it was bullshit,because I have gone down that road before.
    Maybe! Mark Duggan was carrying a gun,or maybe it was a bomb,or could it have been a table leg? who the hell knows in this Orwellian,Straussian,let’s kill civilian’s to protect civilian’s,up is down and down is up world.

  74. “(we know that, in accordance with the inner city norm, he wasn’t interested in marrying her)”
    .
    And how would you or anyone else know that? Were you inside his head?
    .
    “Whether he even co-habited with the mother of most of his children”
    .
    According to Clark he texted her to say he’d be “home” in half an hour or so. And what are you implying when you say “most” of his children? Do you know for a fact that he had others?
    .
    Did you know Mark Duggan personally and otherwise how could you write what you wrote above?

  75. Duggans Family: IPCC Untrustworthy…”The family of Mark Duggan, whose death triggered the unrest that rocked Britain over the past days, said they doubt the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) can probe his fatal shooting away from outside pressure.

    The police in north London Tottenham area shot dead the 29-year-old on Thursday August 4 in a pre-planned operation when officers stopped the minicab carrying him.

    Media reports said immediately after his death that the incident had been an exchange of fire and that Duggan had first fired at officers but the IPCC admitted on Friday their statement may have “misled” media into such a perception stressing Duggan had not fired at all.

    “We put our faith in the IPCC but they have let us down. How can we now trust that they are independent of the police as they say they are?” said Duggan’s fiancée Symone Wilson at an event to celebrate his life at Broadwater Farm Community Centre.

    “We want to know the truth about how Mark died and will not rest until that information is given to us,” she added.

    Meanwhile, Wilson’s sister, Michelle, said the IPCC were playing with the dead man’s family.

    “The IPCC person told us one thing behind closed doors, once she eventually spoke with us days after the shooting, and then said something completely different in public. We have been treated appallingly by the IPCC,” she said.

    Duggna’s family said they want an independent inquiry into the links between the police watchdog and the Scotland Yard.

    This comes as a family friend said that people believe the IPCC has scheduled its investigations into the incident for December so that media and the public lose track of the events saying Duggans want an independent inquest as they do not trust the official one.

    Duggan’s family also rejected accusations hurled at the dead man saying the authorities are keeping the public in the dark allowing the media to tar his face.

    “He was not a gang member and he had no criminal record. He was from a tightly knit group of friends who did separate things during the week and met up like childhood friends do, and yet some people are trying to describe that as a gang,” said the friend”. …. http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193858.html

  76. It’s an odd argument. Most people here seem to be in agreement with most of the original posting, the sticking point is over the question of prejudgement – whether or not we know if he was a gangster (or whatever) or not, and if we do want to make up our minds at this stage, whether we go for “yes” or “no”.
    .
    Craig remarked in another thread that he does know this, from Sources He Cannot Reveal Or He’d Have To Kill Us. The corollary of this is, that we who he can’t explain it to, don’t know. Of our own knowledge, all we know is that an unnamed authority tells us this and isn’t showing their reasoning or evidence. And this seems to be the sticking point, people are remarking that many other statements have been made, on this occasion and others, in much the same way, by various other unnamed sources; some of them have turned out to be correct, others have not. And some people are insisting that they do know this or that or whatever, and other people (myself included) are saying well, no, we don’t.
    .
    So, how does it come about that anybody who won’t accept Craig’s reasoning, sight unseen, is defined as a “lefty” ? What does this have to do with Left or Right ? Nothing. It’s an argument about attitudes towards authority, and empiricism. (I’m tempted to suggest that an insistence that everything can be explained by assigning people a position along a single axis having something to do with a theory of economics is itself a rather odd attempt to constrain unruly facts into a pre-chosen ideology).
    .
    If anything, it could be argued as small-c conservative, in the sense of nostalgia for the good old days of the presumption of innocence and the idea that justice must not only be done, but must also be seen to be done.
    .
    “I for one do actually want the police to arrest criminals carrying loaded firearms” – me too. I also want them to be able to admit it when they fuck up.

  77. ‘Your constant attempts to distill what are very complex situations into single simplistic, dualistic narrative belies the avowed thoughtfulness of your stance.’

    Suhayl- I’m not attempting to pin the riots down to a single, race -related cause. As you rightly say, it is more complex than that. I am however aware of the fact that, as I’m going against the flow here, I tend to play devil’s advocate- perhaps too much for my own good.

    ‘Virtually every single post you make on almost all subjects seems to evince your prepossession with what used to be called ‘race relations’.’

    I accept that most, but not all, of my posts here since the Brevik atrocity could be loosely termed as being connected to ‘race relations’.However prior to that event I rarely touched the subject. I started posting here several years ago, firstly just as ‘Mark’, but latterly (to forestall confusion between me & Mark Golding) as ‘OldMark’. If you check back on old threads where I posted as ‘Mark’ you’ll see that I rarely commented about race or ‘community relations’. Also, on most of these threads, I wasn’t going ‘against the flow’ – so I didn’t have to keep clarifying my position against those who disagreed with me.

  78. ‘According to Clark he texted her to say he’d be “home” in half an hour or so.’

    I don’t accept that Duggan’s use of the term ‘home’ in a text message to his girlfriend is conclusive evidence that they were actually co-habitees.

    ‘And what are you implying when you say “most” of his children? Do you know for a fact that he had others?’

    No I don’t- however the media don’t seem agreed on number of children he actually had. It therefore seems likely to me that the girlfriend who has featured widely in media interviews since the killing isn’t the only woman with whom he has fathered children.

  79. Craig wrote: “I understand the police believed he may have been actually on the way to carry out a “hit” and that is why they stooped him in a public street”

    Now let me see! I’m on my way to carry out a “hit” and according to the Standard,
    Duggan’s deceased uncle had an “armoury of weapons greater than the police;” the implicatuion being, no doubt, that Duggan knew guns! So what amongst this arsenal of firearms does he choose? Obvious, the modified replica and just to be absolutely sure of success, we’ll load it with just one round!! Guess that make sense!

  80. “Duggan’s deceased uncle had an “armoury of weapons greater than the police;””
    .
    I’ve seen this statement somewhere, too. But this is the first reference to it in this thread (I think. Search for “armoury” finds nothing except the above). So, where does it come from ? How do we know this ? Who is it that’s being quoted ? Google has nothing.
    .
    (In conversation elsewhere a few weeks ago, someone suggested I should look for work as a Consultant Epistomologist).

  81. Up the Junction.
    .
    Nev tells it like it is, part I:
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldFWC1pxBsQ&feature=related
    .
    Another in our occasional series, Pissed-Off People.

  82. Ghost,
    Lots about his deceased uncle at the Daily Mail link I gave above. I think the “armoury” thing was a boast the uncle made himself.
    .
    “So, how does it come about that anybody who won’t accept Craig’s reasoning, sight unseen, is defined as a “lefty”?”
    .
    That allegation stunned me, I have to say.

  83. “It therefore seems likely to me that the girlfriend who has featured widely in media interviews since the killing isn’t the only woman with whom he has fathered children.”
    –OldMark
    .
    “It seems likely” … and you “don’t accept” that when he said “home” he meant home or that they were “cohabiting”. And you also knew that he wasn’t planning on marrying his partner, although the Daily Mail says the opposite? So are your sources better than the Daily Mail’s? Apparently you even know more than his friends:
    .
    “But friends say Duggan was planning to marry 29-year-old Semone Wilson, his partner of 12 years, and move away from Tottenham to raise their two sons, aged ten and seven, and 18-month-old daughter”.
    .
    The Daily Mail published a whole article about his extended family and any associated criminality they could find. But they listed no criminal record for Duggan – yet one would imagine that if there was such a thing, they would have found it and printed it.

  84. Craig, the branch that carried out this execution was CO19, the same branch involved in the execution of Jonh Charles de Menezes, where he was pinned to the floor and shot 7 times in the head at point blank range. Have you considered the eyewitness testimony to Duggan’s murder?

    ‘I saw about six unmarked police cars cornering a people carrier near a bus stop right outside Tottenham Hale station.

    ‘It looked like they had been chasing the car. I heard the police shout something like, “Don’t move” and I saw them drag the driver out of the car. I don’t know if they dragged the guy out in the passenger seat – he was the one who got shot.

    ‘About three or four police officers had both men pinned on the ground at gunpoint. They were really big guns and then I heard four loud shots.’

    Sounds like an unlawful execution to me. In which case, why would you believe that a bullet got lodged in the officer’s radio by accident when, given the circumstances, it is more plausible that the officers deliberately fired a bullet into their radio in order to justify their murder of Duggan with the claim that he fired at them? Also, the gun they claim was found on Duggan (or near him) was a ‘Bruni BBM’, which means it was either an air gun or a blank starter pistol.

    Interestingly enough, last year, the WestMidlands police issued an amnesty on just this make of gun which previously did not need a license. Assuming their amnesty drive was successful, there are probably quite a few of these guns floating around UK police stations… I’m sure one or two wouldn’t be missed if some element of the Met wanted one to ‘seed’ a crime scene.

  85. Thanks, Dreoilin. Yes, I see it now – “more guns than the police” was the quote. from the uncle, yes. I feel fairly sure that a more detailed look would reveal a somewhat qualified use of the word “police”, meaning a particular bunch of them at a particular place and time, rather than everything available to all of them … if there was ever any real substance to it, of course.
    .
    This “lefty” noise is very derailing. I had to go back and re-read the original posting, to remind myself that actually we’re most of us mostly in agreement with most of what he said … (and, yes, that there are people round and about who do seem to derive all their conclusions from a single theory, though I still insist on seeing ‘left’ as a subset of the total problem).
    .
    But, I seem to be converging on my usual rant – “People, this is not a football match, nor any other kind of zero-sum game. You’re allowed to see more than two teams, support any combination of them, start your own, boo them all, or invent new scales to compare them on. You may wish to consider the idea that competition is not the only possible relationship, or investigate the chance that there’s something happening outside the stadium”.

  86. Okay, Old Mark, I don’t remember you from before over the past several years as plain old ‘Mark’, as opposed to ‘Old Mark’, apart from the time a couple of weeks ago when you changed the monicker – my apologies for that. You’re right, playing devil’s advocate is fine as a tactic (we all do it from time-to-time and it can be healthy for thought, self-questioning and discourse), but as you suggest, playing it consistently about one specific subject to some extent regardless of the thread’s topic tends to paint oneself into a corner and just make it look as though one is either obsessed or else that one is trying to act as an irritant. I accept, given the information you’ve provided, that taken as a whole, you’re posts are likely to be broader than that.

  87. “But friends say Duggan was planning to marry 29-year-old Semone Wilson, his partner of 12 years, and move away from Tottenham to raise their two sons, aged ten and seven, and 18-month-old daughter”.

    Duggan’s friends are probably applying the maxim (excuse the cod Latin) De Mortuis nil nisi bonum, here. And is the conclusion quoted above, from anonymous ‘friends’, to be given greater weight that that this assessment of his nature, from a named source-

    ‘One of his primary school teachers recalled him a few years later as a boy who carried a knife and beat up other pupils.
    Boyan Yordanov, 46, said Duggan was one of the most disruptive children he had ever taught.
    ‘He was often attacking other children in the playground – they were all afraid of him,’ he said.
    ‘Once he brought a knife into school. Luckily one of the teachers discovered he had it and nothing happened – but he had to be suspended.’

    Furthermore,the fact that, as you deduce from the article, the DPP have either never charged him with an offence, or got one to stick, proves nothing. That actually fits the profile of quite a few successful career criminals.

  88. Suhayl- Here is an article that seems to pinpoint with some accuracy many of the factors behind the riots, without dwelling on any racial elements-

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/thisweek/7157318/web-exclusive-these-rioters-are-tony-blairs-children.thtml

    The headline is, of course, what you’d expect from an essentially Tory organ- but the article itself appears thoroughly well researched, and worth sharing with a wider audience.

  89. Lateral thinkin’ Joe but firing a bullet into a radio with a 9mm Glock is not plausible.
    .
    We have a more serious problem.
    .
    Instead of a policy of consent and a close relationship between our police and the British public which HAS resulted in many looters and criminals being arrested after numerous home searches, agent Cameron wants ‘zero tolerance’ and American style policing much to the concern of police commissioners.
    .
    This is the ‘thin edge of the wedge’ towards a British police state and a British armed police force. I believe it is time for the British public to get tough, get writing and if nothing happens, get marching in numbers.
    .
    Police brutality has increased ten-fold since September 11th 2001(1) and many American teenagers have been brutalised, injured and shot dead (google ‘america police brutality statistics’)
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ljYNgLnpxM
    .
    GO HOME SUPERCOP BRATTON YOU ARE NOT WANTED!

    .
    (1)www2(dot)ohchr(dot)org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/ngos/usa/USHRN15(dot)pdf

  90. OldMark,
    .
    There is no connection whatsoever between you deciding he had no intention of marrying his partner and the fact that some primary teacher said he once brought a knife to school.
    (I had quoted the knife story way up this page.)
    And I have no idea what you’re trying to say about Duggan with all these *opinions* about whether he was going to marry or not, and whether he had other children. What do those matters have to do with anything?
    .
    “You’re allowed to see more than two teams, support any combination of them, start your own, boo them all, or invent new scales to compare them on …”
    .
    With you there, Ghost.

  91. Interesting to note that an event which took at most, from intial engagement by the police of the suspect to firing of the fatal shot(s say, maximum 3 minutes, maybe 5? This, we are led to believe, requires a period of SIX MONTHS to investigate? Much time to muddy the waters and indulge in some creative verbal gymnastics. Justice delayed is justice denied!

  92. I still want to know why, in so many cases, police in riot gear stood by while looting (and arson?) proceeded within their sight, and did not intervene. There are multiple reports of this from all across the country. It is almost as if the riots were deliberately permitted to escalate. “Nip it in the bud” would have been a far better approach.

  93. Thanks, Old Mark, that’s a very good article from someone who sounds like they know what they’re talking about. The truth is, the systemic decay into effective illiteracy to which the writer refers has been setting in for several decades under both Labour and Conservative Govts. Blair’s corrupt shower accelerated and intensified it. Some of the ‘new’ experiments under New Labour in education had already been tried, and failed, in the 1980s. New Labour was not ‘left-wing’ – where has the writer been living if they think that they were? New Labour are Centre Right. But in truth, this isn’t a Left or Right thing. I mean, both capitalist Britain (once) and Eastern European Communist countries had very high levels of education; freedom in the latter, of course, was another thing. It’s about messing around with (several generations of) kids’ futures. The old methods worked, because they’d been worked-out over many years and were not subject to transient ideologies – once, we had a highly literate population who could compete anywhere in the job market. The writer is correct also in saying that all of these factors – teenage pregnancy rates, etc. – link together and perpetuate the cycle. Once the rot sets in, it’s very difficult to reverse it.

  94. Clark, the nature of the protest that escalated to riot meant that police commanders instructed their people to ‘contain’ rather than ‘confront’ – they believed at the time (before the arson began) that ‘contain’ equated to broken shop-fronts and stolen goods; confront could have ended with injury and death. It was a wise decision that somehow got exploited and became mob rule and reign of terror.
    .
    I have information that SIS were on scene in London – why? – infiltrating to gain intelligence or infiltrating to stoke a fire? If the former, there was no need because the public provided the tips, if the later then perhaps a catalyst for further control of our liberties by a government serving its peerage masters who know a slow shift in consciousness is taking place, right here, right know, in your minds and many more.

  95. Naturally, though, the Spectator writer shows their partisanship and I think that detracts a little from the power of their article. After all, while there are systemic problems with teachers and state education the way they are today in the UK – I agree with that part of the analysis – let’s not forget whose policies destroyed those jobs in industry to which the writer refers, let’s not forget who deliberately turned Britain into a service ‘industry’/ City of London banana monarchy (as it were), let’s not forget who told us that “there is no such thing as society”. And let’s not forget whose policies post-1980s successive Conservative and Labour Govts have been following ideologically blindly. We now are reaping the whirlwind from that social engineering.

  96. ““You have succeeded in coming across as having a very worrying nervous breakdown, a la Christopher Hitchens over 9/11″
    Macky, in a strong field, that is quite a fantasy.”

    @YugoStiglitz/Larry you mean in Craig going off the rails on this, or Hitchens going loopy after 911 ? Anyhow don’t worry, you’re still way ahead as top fantasist/true believer, in that mother of all crackpot conspiracies theories, known as the official 9/11 narrative.

    “Macky, as far as one is aware, Craig is not having a “nervous breakdown”. I must emphasise that point. He just has views and like the rest of us, is trying to ascertain the truth from the currently limited information available.”
    .
    @Suhayl, touching as your protective loyalty is, you would be helping Craig more, by being honest & telling him plainly that he has gone off the rails over the riots, instead of cowardly (“not by Craig, I hasten to add”) & indirectly rebuking him for throwing juvenile & petulantly hysterical tantrums; behaviour which you try to cover as “he just has views and like the rest of us”.

    Of course if you have such medical or mystical abilities as to ascertain to a reasonable certainty that Craig is not having a nervous type breakdown over this, then please state so, so that I can be reassured that despite the riots, his up to now, latent hatred for a certain urban sub-culture, does not permanently unhinged him, like 9/11 did for Hitchens, who could no longer contain & control his latent Islamophobia any longer.

  97. Clark said:
    “I still want to know why, in so many cases, police in riot gear stood by while looting (and arson?) proceeded within their sight, and did not intervene. There are multiple reports of this from all across the country. It is almost as if the riots were deliberately permitted to escalate. “Nip it in the bud” would have been a far better approach.”

    I agree, check out the Youtube videos on this post to see the lack of police/fire brigade & how the Croydon fire was allowed to escalate without any intervention from the police/fire service. (Note the riot police standing doing nothing & note how there was no fire response to the burning bus, in advance of the Reeves furniture store fire – the start of which can be seen with a burning sofa in the shop window).

    ‘deliberately permitted to escalate’ describes it exactly!

  98. Macky you talking about me?

  99. “Once the rot sets in, it’s very difficult to reverse it.”
    .
    It might be worth reminding ourselves that we’ve done it before. None of this would be here to fall apart if we hadn’t built it once already.

  100. Okay, Macky, take it easy. I’m perhaps a bit sensitive about dissidents being labelled ‘mad’, or about mental instability being insinuated in political dissidents. I’ve seen it happen too often as a prelude to a symphony, or else as an ongoing melody. I realise that that’s not what you were doing in this case. Hence my response. I didn’t intend any annoyance to you. I don’t think the Hitchens parallel is fair, though, to be honest. I do sometimes disgree with what Craig writes, and say so – see ‘Cartoon’ thread from 15th August 2011, for a recent example; also some of the stuff about feminism. But to put it in perspective, here is a guy who gave up his career and social standing and put his life very much on the line for what he believed in, to try to save people from torture and death and the machinations of a malevolent (sorry, Nextus, more alliteration!) empire. And who continues to do all of that. So if I disagree with him on this or that, I say so, wihtout having to insinuate lunacy.

  101. @Larry Levin, No, unless you are yet another false persona for that tedious Shill who has been plaguing this Site for years mostly under “Larry from St Louis” moniker, but now under “YugoStiglitz”.

    @Suhayl, I am glad that you realise that I was not trying to label Craig as insane or mentally unstable, otherwise your “I’m perhaps a bit sensitive” should read “I’m totally paranoid” ! The fact remains however, that his recent display of hardcore reactionary rhetoric & logic, is what you would normally expect from some Right Wing Shock-Jock, and it has, well, shocked me !. In fact, add in his obvious straw-men points, his heaps of infantile abuse & illogical generalisations, and you would think you’ve stumbled onto the Blog of some student activist member of the Young Conservatives.

    I am well aware of Craig honourable record, which in why I visit this Site, and which is why I despair to witness him thrashing his own reputation, with his bizarre & blinkered take on the recent riots; there is one small glimmer of hope, and that is his quite backtracking from parroting the Cameron & May mantra of this being “”simple criminality” without any cause, to now being a product of “”Gangsta culture”; mind you isn’t that what David Starkey said the other night ? Not much of an improvement really then !

  102. http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-race-played-a-part-but-not-as-starkey-imagines-it-2337672.html

    Macky, thanks. Here’s a good piece on the subject.
    .
    And as far as one can tell from their often excellent and constructive posts, Larry Levin is NOT Larry from St Louis/Yugostiglitz.

  103. Funny enough I recently read a critical piece about the last YAB article (see here; http://www.counterpunch.org/maciel08122011.html).

    This one is not too bad, but still quite shallow, in that like Craig she doesn’t seek to address root causes, instead she floats around telling us what the riots were not about, as if the cause was something that fell out of the sky, a bit like Craig’s ”Gangsta culture”, modern day miraclous Virgin Births that came into existence because just because they did !

    Two other pieces worth reading, but the second only for the reader comments;

    http://www.counterpunch.org/dawson08112011.html

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/dominic-lawson/dominic-lawson-blame-poverty-and-gangs-but-its-really-about-cultures-2338237.html

  104. “I am well aware of Craig honourable record, which in why I visit this Site, and which is why I despair to witness him thrashing his own reputation”
    .
    Hear hear.
    .
    I’m sure he’s a very busy man, and often has more urgent/interesting things to do than pay attention to the comments here. But, to ignore much of what’s said, leap in and cherrypick some bits while ignoring others, and then favour us all with a front-page announcement along the lines of Larry’s old “the posters here are all swivel-eyed loons who believe [caricature]” doesn’t exactly encourage worthwhile debate, it seems more to turn us all into clowns posturing for his occasional amusement.
    .
    Plus – someone who can ask “Who cares what happens in Cardiff ?” (in the “It’s an English problem” thread) has, in my view, undermined his position to lecture us on proper responses. Hurtful, pointless, weakening, destructive for the short-term fun of it, and only a swivel-eyed loon would defend it as some sort of noble clas[contd. on p94]

  105. Good links, Macky. Thanks.
    .
    Since we are all loons, let us don some purple velvet loon-pants like those sported by Twink (of the Pink Fairies et al), whom that trendy interior decorator clearly models himself on.
    .
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twink_%28musician%29

  106. advertising

  107. “Duggan was an armed criminal”, followed by, “He did have a record but I don’t have details yet”. Pure speculation then.

  108. Hi my friend! I wish to say that this article is amazing, great written and come with almost all important infos. I would like to see extra posts like this .

  109. I feel this is one of the so much significant info for me. And i am glad studying your article. However should remark on some common things, The site taste is wonderful, the articles is in point of fact great : D. Good process, cheers

  110. Very nice post. I just stumbled upon your blog and wished to say that I’ve really enjoyed browsing your weblog posts. After all I will be subscribing on your feed and I am hoping you write again soon!

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. The killing of Mark Duggan | Politics in the Zeros

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted by Expathos