Given that Goldman Sachs and the finance ministry of greece fudged the figures to get membership of the EU, don’t the citizens of the EU have the right to sue them for money recieved under false pretences ie Membership by Fraud?

TFS

I agree

“Are Obama and NATO plotting a military coup in Greece?”
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/pers-n03.shtml

I agree its a disaster of epic proportions just waiting to happen. Which ever way it went it was always going to end badly for Greece. Italy next. Then Spain. The Euro is dead in the water, all they are doing now is pouring good money after bad.
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Its time the Euro countrys woke up and smelled the coffee.
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Greece is now run by Germany, a lot of Greeks died preventing that from happening during the 40′s.
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I do feel for them, but then if you dont pay your taxes, and make a national sport of it, but still want a bloated benefits system, then to some degree you sow what you reap.

*edit*
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That should have been reap what you sow !

This could get interesting, or bloody.

Doesn’t democracy mean that the people should decide the most important things, such as the Greeks are being asked to agree to? Democracy seems to be a dirty word in the EU. I think they should have a referendum but do it in 2 or 3 weeks, not 2 months. If they vote against the “rescue package” then they would be out of the euro and in a terrible mess, but it still should be their decision, not that of foreign technocrats.

“Its time the Euro countrys woke up and smelled the coffee.”
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Its time Europe woke up and seized the banks and investment corporations and currency traders and all their assets – these vermin are the ones responsible for the whole gigantic bailout clusterfuk, and its time they got theirs. To quote Jack Burton – son of a bitch must pay!

http://numero57.net/2011/11/01/more-news-from-greece/

Let’s hear it for Mike Cobley, who is right on the money. But the bankers are undoubedly going to get theirs. They might be running all the ministries, but they can’t stop the Euros walking out of the banks and right into Switzerland. I agree it is utterly undemocratic, what they are doing to Greece. But Greece is not the problem, as has been relentlessly pointed out by Nouriel Roubini. The problem is the mad lending of banks. The people of Greece are being punished, but they didn’t do all the mad lending. The bankers did. What will happen now, if I can look into the crystal balls of several forecasters I follow, is a banking crisis. I would be amazed if it is not already happening, frankly. I read this morning that 200 billion Euro has already been taken out of Greek banks by governmental fiat. When do you think the average Northern Rock investor would have been queuing outside the banks in the High Street in Athens? Last week? Last month? Last year? No wonder the cost of borrowing is beginning to squeeze Italy in a way that is already familiar to several European countries. It’ll be Italy shortly, and it’ll be virtually every southern European bank thereafter. I’d appreciate anyone’s guidance on the knock-on effect on British banks, especially as quite a few of them are part-owned by continental interests.

“I’d appreciate anyone’s guidance on the knock-on effect on British banks”
http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-58-is-available-Global-systemic-crisis-First-half-of-2012-Decimation-of-the-Western-banks_a7904.html
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I think the article above (in the long run) is playing it down. Its all about taken ownership of people/nations.

Note that the Bank of England have a ‘court’ but no jesters are named here. Did not know that the trades unions were represented.
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http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/about/people/court.htm#photo
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I was attempting to discover the lending banks’ current leverage compared to that in 2008 but got waylaid. This is a response from the FT to a speech given by Andy Haldane, the BoE’s current executive director for financial stability. There’s a title to conjure with.

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The threat of the “volatility junkie”
http://blogs.ft.com/martin-wolf-exchange/2011/10/24/the-threat-of-the-volatility-junkie/?infernofullcomment=1&infernooffset=11&SID=google

What do you call Papandreou, if he’s not a backstabbing sod and crook? How can you blackmail a black hole with a direct connectiopn to a swiss bank account?

utterly daft idea, Greece should have never been in Europe, if bwankers would not have fingered the books.

‘Greece is now run by Germany, a lot of Greeks died preventing that from happening during the 40′s.’

David, all before the coma might just be right. Truth is, as already mentioned above, Greece’s economy was never healthy, not even before it joined the EU.
It had an awefull tax system that allowed the upper echelon, the political class, the ship owners, etc. to extradite money out of the country. private personal wealth in swiss and other bank accounts approx. amounts to 600 billion Euro’s, a third of what would tie Greece over.

These hardline nationalists must hate their country if they can’t help it out when its needed. The normal person in grweece dispairs, they are at their wits end. If they get to know about how these big families, who ruled Greece for some time, could siphon off all these vast sums, they’ll go spare.

The ruling classes in Greece’s kleptocracy have ruined the country and some are connected to intrigue and murder, maybe they should be arrested and their private wealth confiscated just as done with Ghaddaffi, one way of getting greece its moneyb back, it has its spine sucked out by these crooks.

Craig, you fail to mention that this bailout was never ment to be part of a referendum, never discussed, an aborition of papandreou’s mind on the way back to Athens, poor sod is probably on Osborne’s best catnip, he could not have slept very much during the last two weeks. He and his family have held their claws over Greece for decades and I think this will come to an end now.

Now to your second part of the sentence, David, many Greeks died for trying to prevent Germany ruling them during the 40′s.
Thats a very cheap shot, because since then a hell of a lot has changed, new generations are changing Germany for the better, it does not waste money on silly wars, it invests it in trust, always renewing and modernising its economy, you should try it here one day. Much positive change has happened due to the proportional representative electoral system introduced by the then Allies, thank you.

Bad mouthing Germany and making inappropriate comparrissons to the 1940′s, because it is giving it all, trying to sort out the problems, guaranteeing the debt of other countries? get a life.
How many of these ‘advisors and bankers’ are British? and if not why not? Oh, why are there not enough Brits at the centre of the EU decision making process that it has come to such calamity?

Cheap sniping from the sidelines, whilst benefitting from a 350 Million Plus consumer market, by some old boy network who bummed each other in boarding schools, all genetically reduced for that extra strenght little Englander trait, such pettyness just does not cut the mustard at all, meshugge.

To start finding blame in those who supported Greece, whilst not even looking at what the likes of Goldman Sachs or their own Government are doing to this country, never mind Greece, is finger pointing is like asking someone else to wipe their nose, whilst one’s own is streaming with snot.

Germany has invested all in Europe, all the UK has done for Europe was divisive bickering over this that and the other, special veto’s for bag swinging Primadonnas, vetoing this that and the other, rather than putting their full weight behind it and being constructive from the start.

This all looks very much like a construct, a planned event that makes Europe focus inward, busy, whilst the UK and US fool their people and go to war.

Whatever the people of Greece want they should get, and that includes a pension age of over 65, not 59. And if it means that Greece’s public service is not corrupt anymore, does not lord it over its people or exceeds its pensions rights, so be it, they need help with getting rid of their ripp off merchants.

Just to repeat my question, how many of these 372 advisers are British?

If there aren’t any, why? can’t they be trusted? Is it because Briatin has refused to take any responsibility for its partner Greece? what a partner indeed.
A European partner that loves itself, Israel and a murderous, hopelessly inhumane and indebted US.

Phew, that had to be said.

The end of sovereignty!

The end of sovereignity….indeed, goddamn drones are everywhere!

“new generations are changing Germany for the better”
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They are in Afghanistan, and explain their role in supplying weapons to Iraq, submarines to Israel, CIA secret prisons in Frankfurt, Germany participated in the Libya war.

Bet these 372 “advisors” are charging for their services at no more than the previous administrators’ rates. And I bet they’ll get the best deal for Greece when they flog off state assets to their mates. Of course.
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There will be very little by way of local accountability, particularly when they clear off once it’s all sewn up. Private security enforcement and bank fees will be at the top of their spending list, no doubt. Greece first… take a look at the future, boys and girls.
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Curiously enough, this very thing – parachuting in “Emergency Financial Managers” (EFMs) to take over entire towns has already started happening in America, notably Wisconsin and Michigan. They don’t care about protestors either, because they’re not and never will be answerable to them.

With any luck the Athenians will give them what they gave the Thirty Tyrants.

Presumably, even if they did have a referendum they would only have to have another one if the people got the answer wrong.

Currently state broadcasting channel one doing a hit piece on “!benefit cheats” do they really miss the irony of who is really doing the stealing from us? Panorama was upon a time a serious documentary programme examining important issues and the bbc was a credible broadcaster. what a shower they are now!

Its worked in Scotland for over 300 years, just got to hope the Greeks are not as stupid as the Scots.

“The elite still can’t face up to it: Europe’s model has failed”
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‘These bailouts are for the banks, not Greece – and they’re deepening the crisis of democracy at the heart of the EU’
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Seumas Milne
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/02/elite-europe-model-failed

‎”We have suffered a total and unmitigated defeat…you will find that in a period of time which may be measured by years, but may be measured by months,. We are in the presence of a disaster of the first magnitude…we have sustained a defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far with us along our road…we have passed an awful milestone in our history, when the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged, and that the terrible words have for the time being been pronounced against the Western democracies” W. Churchill 1938

Samaras is gunning for Papandreou saying he is blackmailing the Greek people and Parliament. Scrapping the referendum will further the malaise of the Greek economy and put the EU on the brink of collapse. So be it!

KingofWelshNoir: Ireland, exactly.

Crikey, what a post. Have copied last part to facebook, so that should sort things.

I thought Papandreou was making the right (and democratic) decision in calling a referendum – but he should have done it a long time ago – and if calling it now scheduled it for 1 month from now.

Unfortunately everyone from the right wing main opposition party to the right of his own PASOK party, the left of his PASOK party and the Communists were all condemning the referendum plan.

I heard one Greek Communist MP interviewed on Channel 4 News condemning the referendum plan as “undemocratic” and saying it was “blackmail” before she’d even heard the question that would be in it.

Polls show the majority of Greeks want to remain in the Euro – and that the majority of Greeks reject the bail-out conditions.

Unfortunately they can’t do both. They have to choose one or the other.

I think the bail-out conditions are far too harsh and will ensure Greece stays in recession if they’re enforced, which will mean Greece’s creditors never get a penny, as a country in massive debt and a recession can never pay off even part of the debt.

I’ve read a couple of different economists’ blogs saying that a free trade area between countries with economies of such different strengths as Greece and Germany is bound to lead to the weaker economy (Greece’s) running a trade deficit and so going into debt, unless there are mechanisms to redistribute some of the trade deficit back to the weaker economy – e.g regional growth and development funds.

The funny thing is, the Greeks have a very good claim on Germany to pay off their debt, because Germany took a ‘loan’ from Greece and never paid it back…

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056400/Greece-debt-crisis-Greeks-believe-Germans-owe-60bn.html

They should really make an issue of this. Perhaps they could team up with Haiti who have a large claim on the French.

The one good thing is that we have, in real time, evidence as to how it all works. Market ‘panics’, EU\IMF bullying, and military coups, are all used in concert to force a ‘Government’ to toe the line. It’s not hidden, nor subtle. This constitutes authoritarianism, by any measure. Perhaps not Fascism, but a new variant on authoritarianism, for which we don’t yet have a word. I’ll start with Bureaucratzism.

The term may not catch on. But the concept is clear: the people do not have a say. It’s really as clear as it can be, and, whilst dismal in itself, at least we know the truth.

“For the euro’s architects, the currency was to be the catalyst for the deeper integration they always regarded as essential for European corporations to grow large enough to compete on a global scale. Now they see the eurozone crisis as a springboard to create the fiscal union and economic government they have long wanted, among a smaller group of countries.
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“But the loss of credibility created by the crisis goes beyond the eurozone to the economic ideology that has shaped the whole European Union for decades: of deregulation, privatisation and the privileging of corporate power, regardless of the modest employment rights introduced to limit social dumping.
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“That is exactly the model that is now in deep crisis across the western world.”
–Seumas Milne
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For about 2-3 weeks after the initial bust in the US, there was a lot of talk about the American version of capitalism being dead in the water, and economic textbooks having to be rewritten. Anyone remember that? And then all the talk drifted away, out of the mainstream discourse. Major efforts were underway to prop up the old system, at enormous cost to taxpayers on both sides of the pond.
Nobody is propping up Greece and Ireland. The taxpayers of Greece and Ireland (and elsewhere) are being raided to prop up French and German (and other) banks that gambled and lost.
And meanwhile I’m watching Sky presenters talking about Sarkozy and Merkel “summoning” the Greek PM, and debating in their smug Sky way “whether the Greek people should be allowed to have a referendum or not”. Kay bloody Burley is going to lecture us on THAT too?
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Personally, I hope the whole Eurozone project goes to the wall. America is a corporatocracy. I have no desire to live in a European version of the same.

Meanwhile, two ships are on the way to Gaza and are being shadowed by the Israelis.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4143821,00.html
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And Ireland is closing its embassy at the Vatican.

Thanks Nuid. Remember how Greece colluded with Israel in wrecking the sailing of the last flotilla to Gaza?
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I put the link to the GPS tracking of the latest two boats on Craig’s post about Burnes.

Here come the Vultures and the Hyenas, blood sucking Libya to death.
IMF will meet with Libyan leaders ‘shortly’
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The International Monetary Fund said Thursday it was planning to meet with Libya’s new leaders soon to determine the financing needs of the war-torn country.
“There will be a meeting with the authorities shortly. I don’t have a specific date but it will be soon,” IMF spokesman David Hawley said at a regularly scheduled news conference.
The spokesman did not say where the meeting would take place.
“The areas that we’re discussing with the authorities are preparation of a macroeconomic framework, assessment of the public financial management capacity, estimation of financing needs, and assistance we might provide in restoring the central bank’s payment system and operations,” he said.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8860684/Libya-revolutionaries-turn-on-each-other-as-fears-grow-for-law-and-order.html
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Note the comments – first the best. And this in a ‘right wing’ paper.

The link to the IMF visit to Libya.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/2011/11/03/imf-will-meet-with-libyan-leaders-shortly
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Did you spot Cameron announcing in Cannes that the UK were considering ‘boosting’ their contribution to the IMF? This is spite of his earlier promise that we would not be bailing out the Eurozone. What a tosser he is. I saw him seeing a photo op at the Cannes preliminaries. He sidled up to Obomber and Merkel who were talking together and did some glad handing and kissing (Merkel not Obomber. I got the impression they resented the interruption.

Thanks Mary. They tweeted about 30 mins ago:
“Both the #Saoirse and #Tahrir were in contact with each other minutes ago, no problems. No contact yet from Israeli army/navy.”
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They’re about 75 nautical miles from Gaza. Fishing boats are taking to sea to meet them.

I have heard nothing substantive on Radio 4 News for 24 hours. They have been filling and padding. Something nasty’s up, I think.

It looks to me as if we’re on our way to a new World Government – of the banks, by the banks, for the banks.

Democracy – what’s that? Oh yes, something they dreamed up in Greece – well, that(a sharp right hook)’s for democracy

Off topic.

This is the page which was deleted from the Guardian site on Tuesday, and is still down.
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Why?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1Q3NqBhknLkJ:www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/01/legal-battle-liam-fox-adam-werritty-friendship%3Fnewsfeed%3Dtrue+boulter+werritty+court&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=opera

I have saved it.

Firstly, germany has had many coalition Governments in the past who had to make allegiances with the allies, as much as it went against the grain of Adenauer and Brandt, many of these Governments were with the CDU/ CSU rightwingers. Germany had chancellors Kohl and Merkel for some time with one bout of red green Government inbetween, so the surrent drive is distinctly to the right, pro NATO, something I’m not happy about, but thats how it is, another election might see this cabal removed.

Guest all valid points, except, Germany discussed its entry into Afghanistan in arduous debates, in public and in Parliament, before they made a decision to help its NATO partners, something that can not be said about this country, who is debating going to war with Iran? All we get is tough talking Cl;egg ( wretch, how he has changed, must be preparing for his enrty into the Conservative partry). Germany also contributed to Saddams weaponry and built vast bunkers for him, it helped built up his chemical industry, whilst the Brits sold them arms manufacturing capabilities and many arms, the Us sold the precursors to make mustard gas and VX and and and, it was not a German thing, was it?

There is no Friends of Greece contingent running our foreign policy, embedded in our party structure like a cuckoo in the wrong nest, otherwise we might even respect that Greece is a fellow NATO member and EU partner and help them when needs arise.

Thanks for the update Nuid and Mary, looks like Turkey will not interfere in Israels piratry at all, becasue they said that there wetre sailing to Rhodes… doooh, how else to leave a Turkish harbour.

Well done Komodo for getting that Guardian page. Wonder who is objecting and to what?
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Yes agree on ZBC output. Yesterday it was the endless Pakistani cricket trial and even a live link to the home of the mother of one of those convicted.
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I think those strutting the stage in Cannes are like headless chickens. They haven’t got the remotest idea of how to fix it this time. Need Jimmy Savile back from the dead perhaps?

Komodo (or someone)
Could you summarise or paste the deleted article somewhere? I can’t open it. Thx

Rest assured whatever austerity measures are put in place in Greece, the great Greeks will find a way to get out of it, and good on them..the problem I can see is that 70% Greek still want to be in single currency (euro), and they better realize they cannot have it both ways, if they get the bail out money they will get the money and lose their sovereignty. Now will that solve the problems of Greece in the long run?? or get out of euro , have an orderly default.

they will get the money and lose their sovereignty
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better than the Libyans who lose both

Anon, you do not know the Greeks! believe me, they will find a way, too proud, too independant to bow to the likes of France or Germany.

@ingo…. Its not a cheap shot at Germany. Wether you like it or not the Greeks are very nationalistic, they do remember the 40′s. Is German the same country now.. no of course not.
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As to German European perfection… sorry but thats just rubbish. Germany is as war and resource hungry as any other western nation. The british position is not good on that front either, but if you believe that Germany is a nation run by peace loving fair minded individuals you really are delisional. Germans are no better and no worse than any other industrialised nation.
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Why wont Britain help Europe fully ? Simple… its not our problem. We do not want to be a part of a federal Europe, especially one that lose’s billion of pounds every year, one that can instruct a nation not to have a referendum. Europe hates the people having a voice in any of their matters. Until that changes I cant ever see the UK joining fully.
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Lets not also forget that the UK is the 2nd largest contributor to the European pot. We used to be the largest per capita but that may have changed now.
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Germany was prevented from having any sort of a military up until the 1st gulf war. Once that was lifted Germany has been steadily increasing its military power and has engaged in the same stupid wars that the UK and USA has been involved in. After all you wouldnt want to miss out on your slice of the pie.
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So much for your image of an altruistic peaceful Germany.
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As for cheap shots, what I wrote was not a cheap shot. Its a very simple and correct statement. This is a cheap shot……
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Two world wars and one world cup Now thats supposed to be a joke, but I doubt you’ll see the humour

Re the Guardian page: leading par here:
“The legal battle that exposed Adam Werritty’s role at the heart of government will be settled today, the Guardian has learned.

The high-profile court battle pitted the Ministry of Defence and Dubai businessman Harvey Boulter against US Post-it note maker 3M and led to Liam Fox, the former defence secretary, being forced to reveal his reliance on Werritty, his best man and firm friend of 13 years.

It is understood that a US court will today rule in favour of the MoD and Boulter, but will only grant the pair about $1.3m (£800,000) in damages. The MoD and Boulter, who jointly developed MRSA-fighting technology called Baclite that was sold to 3M, had sued for up to £41m.”

Turns out that the case isn’t sewn up after all, and the Grauniad had jumped the gun. 3M is now fighting something called an anti-SLAPP measure introduced by Lanny Davis, representing Boulter and the MOD, which alleges that the case was brought in order to suppress free speech. So no damages have yet been awarded, as far as I can tell.

Craig, what’s your source for the 372 advisors? I don’t doubt it’s true, but I can’t find the details reported anywhere. Thanks!

According to my sources the British Banking system has been ‘interrupted’ pm today forcing home the importance of banks. It wiil be reported as a ‘computer system malfunction.’

‘All HSBC ATMs and First Direct and HSBC online banking services are not available.’
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A frightener as you imply Mark? They must think we are not as green as we are cabbage looking.

Mary/Mark, don`t worry I am sure it is just a ‘computer system malfunction.’ When the banks do go under it will be just after peoples monthly salaries are paid in, just before people go to withdraw it, the banks will want to get their grubby little hands on our very last penny.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/03/us-poverty-data-poorest-poor

A coup in Greece, and the world refuses to notice. Serious times.

There was only one thing on Silvio’s mind
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http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/04/article-2057651-0EA7A3BA00000578-101_468x618.jpg
Having a lira: Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi appears to be looking at Argentina’s President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, left, during a group photo at the G20 summit yesterday

The NatWest banking website is down this morning.

Still down at noon.

This is a quote from the Rev. Giles Fraser (from the BBC website)

“St Paul’s Cathedral is built on a deep theological fault line. On the one hand it’s set within the boiler room of global capitalism, and on the other it proclaims a theological story that has some pretty fierce things to say about money and wealth.

“These two powerful tectonic plates, God and mammon, meet right under Wren’s magnificent baroque masterpiece.

“It’s little wonder that St Paul’s can be one of the most challenging and uncomfortable places in which to do theology.”

Considering that the baroque was exactly about that faultline, and trying to integrate the two plates, perhaps a bit behind the times?

Thanks David, I never claimed that germany is better or was not involved in NATO’s ZioUS controlled agendas.
Whjat I’m sayin is that there was no British involvement at the heart of the EU, that they had the chance to be fully part of the EU and could have shaped it differently.

This concerted attack on the Euro is the last gasp attempt at eradicating a more stabile, less manipulated currency to the dollar.
I agree with Craig that this will not make an iota of difference, but you want to blame it all on germany, obvious target to make for an indoctrinated Brit who’s learned ideas of contemporay history are about WW2, maybe american history and not much esle, very understandable, but wrong.

The EU is not just a German cash cow everyone can milk and then slagg off for not giving enough of it, it has been shaped by bankers and unaccountable appointed commissioners, some 30.000 permanent lobbyists and the steering agenda’s of large international conglomerates, nothing to do with you or me, so how cvan you have the audacity to blame the Germans for it all.

I worked in Glivkourissy and Sparta, Athens and on Crete, very hard work that cleared my head of all the militaristic nonsense I had to deal with for 8 years, it was q1982 one year aftyer Greece joined, not a single person I spoke to was positive about the move of their Government, these small farmers and hauliers of fruits did not believed the level of prosperity that was assumed by their Government, Greece joined under false pretences rweached by bankers and accountants, ther was no referendum to join and greece did not adopt the Euro until 2002.

You bemoan the fact that the EU is loosing billions through fraud, so did I when standing on this issues as a EU election candidate, what have you done to change the situation? Secondly this country is loosing approx. 900 billion/annum through tax evasion via off shore havens, many still under the british protectorate, so please don’t lecture us on fraud.

To your sabre rattlin, alluring assumption that the ‘German war machine’ is steadily getting bigger since the second Gulf war.
Germany’s Bunderwher was established in 1955 and Germany was prohibited from developing nuclear weapons, not conventional forces,. With the un controlled spread of nuclear materials by the principled holders of Nukes, controlled or not, I could make a good case for germany developing its own capability, but, we do not have to why? its expensive and risky, once you got it, other s will want it, secondly, Germany is a member of NATO and does not need such dangerous attire, it already has one of the largest concentrations of US nuclear weapons stored on its soil, a legacy of the cold war that should have diminished since 1989, bu hasn’t, just as the UK still has beermat agreements for US bases on its soil, without having control over them.

Then you talk of ‘German perfection’, a metaphor in your head I never mentioned, nor did I use the word peace loving, mein kleiner Hippy, but they have a law that stipulates debate and discussion as to whats going to happen, in public and Parliament. There is a constitunional law for debate without it there is no going to war. Whilst here, in the smelliest, most unreformed democracy around, its totalitarinism galore, no hint of debate, just sabre rattlin ala Clegg, plus an order from the FoI and your’re off to die.

I did not remind you of the US/british massakers, because its borderline genocide, but you tell me where over 300.000 soldiers disappear to in 1945/46 after returning from all over Europe after the war, emaciated they had to dug their own holes in the ground and then were put on starvation rations in the field of Flanders and Northern France, most of them died and nobody ever heard of them. What better than to destroy all evidence of it, only the red cross archive in Geneva holds copies of their internment and treatment, al other papers have been destroyed by the allies. A bit of WW2 histroy they darenot tell you about at school.

being the second largest contributor to the EU reflects the immense trade this country has with Europe, not its obstinacy towards change.

I hope this will be educational and inspirational, maybe you will want to do something now, not just have a cheap shot at your b/pet(e) noire Germany.

@ David,
You sai, “That should have been reap what you sow”. Why not – sow what you reap, because the “banksters” do sow what they reap – money.
Funny ol’ world when the cradle of Western democracy finds that it is no longer afforded true democratic expression from the other Western democratic nations – because a people faced with a choice of a future of penury once the banks are paid, instead of attention to social welfare, jobs, wages, housing – then the opportunity cost is that of payment and poverty – versus – non-payment and survival. The referendum result would not have been one for payment to the banks with poverty.
As someone said, Greece might well make a claim for reparations and tell the Germans to stuff it for reason of what the Nazis owe and Germany never paid. The Jews got their reparations for similar atrocities – so – why not the Greeks at this critical time? Trade off the debt and survive.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056400/Greece-debt-crisis-Greeks-believe-Germans-owe-60bn.html

@ All,

Italy paid Libya reparations for war atrocities – so – I am not arguing in the abstract, when I suggest that the Greeks have a valid argument with precedents to establish that the Germans should absorb the Greek debt.

“plundering Iraq’s oil wealth”
http://www.inthesetimes.com/working/entry/12232/labor_drawing_new_battle_lines_in_iraq_and_iran/

Do South Africans and kenians, Indians who suffered during the Boer wars and Mau Mau attrocities or under colonial yoch also be liable to pay reparations for their attrocities?

What if there was an attrocity that has been hushed up, such as the treatment of POW’s right after the war?

Why should this matter now and has never mattered before could also be a point in question.

Germany for decades paid reparations to Israel, of its own back, it has paid all sorts of reparations.
What the Allies failed to do is to get rid of the top Nazi’s in industry and commerce, they were more interested in getting Germany back on its feet, they could not afford to feed an emaciated Europe, they needed them helping themselves, hence their leniancy, it was a crucial period when Britain itself was digging school grounds over for more veg.
I remember some harrowing tales from those times, remembered and told to me by my Granny and aunties, nobody had enough of anything and bartering was king.

“What if there was an attrocity that has been hushed up, such as the treatment of POW’s right after the war?”
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“‘History will judge us kindly’, Churchill told Roosevelt and Stalin at the Tehran Conference in 1943; when asked how he could be so sure, he responded: ‘because I shall write the history’.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/churchill_gathering_storm_01.shtml

“What if there was an attrocity that has been hushed up”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15554323

Off course its rather academic anyway, being a groups of nations that follows the law, then we only have to follow the EU constitution.

http://www.ukcolumn.org/blogs/proposed-eurozone-bailout-illegal

This documentary sums up the Greek and global debt problem – “Debtocracy”…

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/debtocracy/

“There has been little reporting or understanding of what happened on the ground in Greece”

This sounds about par for our wonderful news media.

See this image for the global financial scenario:
http://tinyurl.com/cv6g74k

Absolutely right Edward, our media is to blame for keeping us dumm and stumm over Europe. It is frightening what people understand of Europe.
Contrast this with our coverage of US affairs, already we are being informed about Obama’s plans, what Michelle Bachmann, sic, is arguing the toss with senator Caine over, etc. Not one of our European partners elections are covered in this way as if we are ankered of the New Foundland coast.
the lack of interest in our bigest market and its politics is frightening and I cannot see this improving under the sniping ConDems.

I get a daily email book extract, often on a topical subject, from delanceyplace.com . Today’s (with the introduction) is below. It highlights a worrying dimension to Greece’s economic woes – which also applies to the UK – the use of public sector jobs as an electoral resource for political parties. That said, excessive pay levels for most senior bankers, CEOs, senior civil servants and industrial oligarchs contribute to a public climate of amorality underlying the anecdotal abuses described below. I could live with a system in which (as with drug-dealers) excessive total assets – apart from the family home – were regarded as prima facie evidence of criminality. Documentation should be required to show that none of the income was based on tax-avoidance, employing people at under the minimum wage or foreclosing on assets missold to purchasers.

.
Extract begins:

.
In today’s excerpt – Greece is a country at the heart of the current European financial crisis. The country had entered the European Union under the administration by manipulating its financial data so that it appeared to conform to the European Union’s exacting financial requirements. It had then kept the truth about its debt and deficits from the EU until a scandal brought down the administration of Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis in 2009 and incoming prime minister George Papandreou and his administration quickly discovered the catastrophic depths of their country’s financial problems:

.
“The long-term picture was … bleak. In addition to its roughly $400 billion (and growing) of outstanding government debt, the Greek number crunch­ers had just figured out that their government owed another $800 billion or more in pensions. Add it all up and you got about $1.2 trillion, or more than a quarter-million dollars for every working Greek. Against $1.2 trillion in debts, a $145 billion bailout was clearly more of a gesture than a solution. And those were just the official numbers; the truth is surely worse. ‘Our people went in and couldn’t believe what they found,’ a senior IMF official told me, not long after he’d returned from the IMF’s first Greek mission. ‘The way they were keeping track of their finances – they knew how much they had agreed to spend, but no one was keeping track of what he had actually spent. It wasn’t even what you would call an emerging economy. It was a third world country.’…

.

“In just the past twelve years the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled, in real terms – and that number doesn’t take into account the bribes collected by public officials. The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national rail­road has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful business­man turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs: it’s still true. ‘We have a railroad company which is bankrupt beyond comprehension,’ Manos put it to me. ‘And yet there isn’t a single private com­pany in Greece with that kind of average pay.’ The Greek public-school system is the site of breathtaking inefficiency: one of the lowest-ranked systems in Europe, it nonetheless employs four times as many teachers per pupil as the highest-ranked, Finland’s. Greeks who send their children to pub­lic schools simply assume that they will need to hire private tutors to make sure they actually learn something.

.

“There are three government-owned defense companies: together they have billions of euros in debts, and mounting losses. The retirement age for Greek jobs classified as ‘arduous’ is as early as fifty-five for men and fifty for women. As this is also the moment when the state begins to shovel out generous pensions, more than six hundred Greek professions some­how managed to get themselves classified as arduous: hair­dressers, radio announcers, waiters, musicians, and on and on and on. The Greek public health-care system spends far more on supplies than the European average – and it is not uncommon, several Greeks tell me, to see nurses and doctors leaving the job with their arms filled with paper towels and diapers and whatever else they can plunder from the supply closets.”
Michael Lewis “Boomerang – Travels in the New Third World”, Norton 2011 pp43-45
Extract ends

The Greeks had already ‘given up all effective sovereignty over their economy’ long before joining the euro. You’re falling foul of the mainstream media’s ridiculous terminology – the oxymoronic phrase ‘sovereign debt crisis’. A sovereign nation CANNOT have a national debt – it WILL have a sovereign money supply with which even the idea of having to borrow money just does not make sense.

The UK gave up our national sovereignty in 1694 when we allowed the then private bank of England to create money out of nothing and loan it at interest to the government. At that time, the BoE had a reserve ratio of 50% – effectively allowing them to loan twice what they actually held on deposit.

Since those early days two things have happened; private banks have consistently sought to reduce the reserve requirements to the point that last year, Mervin King actually called for reserve requirements to be entirely. The other worrying trend is that government created, debt-free money, in the form of cash has been dwindling as a percentage of our money supply – from 40% in the 1960’s to a mere 3% today. This means 97%, the lions share of the UK money supply, in fact this is true of most economies around the world, is created as an interest bearing debt.

The notion of paying down the deficit in this current financial system obviously means we’ll be taking money out of circulation, causing a depression as far as the eye can see. What people are failing to ask is if our entire money supply is debt and must be paid back with interest, just where exactly does the money to cover the interest payments come from? It can only come from more debt. There is a constant demand for the money supply to grow, i.e. the level of indebtedness to increase. We’re never going to get out of this mess until we through the economists and financial pundits out of the temple.

As Michael Rowbotham wrote in his book ‘Grip of Death’, “When a profession fails to deliver, people inevitably suffer. When that profession happens to be the study and practice of economics, the entire world suffers. The deluge of social and environmental problems brought on by humanity’s endeavours to be ‘economic’ suggest that the economics profession is not just failing – its advice is proving mind-bogglingly destructive.”

The Greeks are suffering from Stockholm syndrome – when it became known that the Greek government in 2002 had colluded with the giant hydra-headed spider, the mighty Goldman Sachs, to falsifying financial data and hide billions of debt using a currency swap, the Greek government sent in their intelligence service to investigate but the team was headed up by a former Goldman Sachs banker. Conflict of interest doesn’t even come close to describing the level of fraud and cover up employed. What amazes me is people who should be in jail for such crime are still receiving mega bonuses every year – welcome to the age of the plutocracy / corporatocracy.

It would surprise me if blackmail of Papandreou was the only method employed – death threats by economic hitmen or even assassinations by their jackals are the norm in such circumstances, as is shown in Bill Still’s documentaries ‘Money Masters’ and ‘The Secret of Oz’, both available here – http://bsnews.info/_MoneyandFinance.html

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