I Vote For Shooting Bankers

by craig on October 11, 2012 7:10 am in Uncategorized

Not content with focusing public ire on those social spongers who have the temerity to be unemployed or disabled, government has scored a great populist coup, and caused great rejoicing in the land of the tabloids, by decreeing that it is quite acceptable to kill burglars with machine guns, rocket propelled grenade launchers, tactical nuclear weapons or any of the other items the British householder keeps by them for such an emergency.

But if a burglar were to strip my home of its entire contents, it would not reach a tenth in value of the money that is going to be taken from me in taxation by government for the rest of my life to fund the bank bailouts in which my cash was given to reckless and incompetent bankers to cover their gambling losses.

Not only have they taken all my money, the majority of the money I shall be paying to cover it for the rest of my life, will consist of interest to the bankers because the government borrowed at interest from the bankers the money it then gave gratis to the bankers to bail them out.

And, as doubtless you will have noticed, nothing changed. No reduction in massive salaries and bonuses, no split of casino from high street banking, no transaction tax to deter multiple speculative trades. A million more unemployed, but none of them investment bankers – they have however sacked over a hundred thousand mostly female staff from their high street branches, which were the only sensible and profitable bit of the operation. No bankers in jail, not even for LIBOR fraud. Quantitive Easing, or printed money, is given not for infrastructure projects to produce growth, but given to banks to improve their liquidity. They do not lend it on to companies but pay it to themselves, as bonuses.

Forget burglars. Shoot a banker.

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246 Comments

  1. Jim McDonald

    11 Oct, 2012 - 7:21 am

    Right On, Craig, never mind….. Come the revolution :-)

  2. Am currently in Madrid – I think I am catching the mood!

  3. You will find a similar mood in Rickmansworth

  4. Great post Craig, except for capitulating to the new spelling of gaol. Is there any chance of government demanding seats on the boards of banks that receive bailouts?

  5. Personally, I don’t think they are “worth the bullet.” Just reuse a greasy rope over and over. Oh, and create jobs by making them pay (plus transaction fees) to have their graves dug before they are dispatched.

  6. This never took off. I don’t think people trust Facebook groups.

    http://www.facebook.com/groups/wbankers/

  7. “Hush, my dear,” he said. “don`t speak so load, or you will be over-heard- and I should be ruined. I`m supposed to be a Great Wizard.”
    “and aren`t you?” she asked.
    Not a bit of it, my dear; I`m just a conman.”
    “You`re more than that,” said the Scarecrow, in a grieved tone;”you`re a humbug.”
    “Exactly so!” declared the little man, rubbing his hands together as if it pleased him. “I am a humbug.”

    The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
    “THe Magic Art of The Great Humbug”

  8. No more to be said, really. It’s just down to quality vs quantity…Lee-Enfield vs Kalashnikov. The latter is preferable if you find a lot of bankers in one place, the former if it’s personal.

  9. http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=212.0;wap2

    What a menace they are Bankers and Merchants.

    Fair play though Its a “survival of the fittest, not the honest.”

    To be fair the system is all most a level playing field. I say “almost.”

  10. I like the idea. The poor Irish and Spanish must be feeling the same. I wish I could find that figure quoted – that the bailout of the Irish banks will cost each household something like 2000 Euros per year over the next 10 years to pay off. That’s a hell of a burden on people for the Government to impose. The bankers of course walk out of it with their millions of dollars in severance and pensions, bonuses and guarantee getting another job with even more money!

  11. If these data are to be trusted, (source: http://www.greystonesguide.ie/irelands-comparative-per-capita-bailout-costs/)

    New Research shows Irish citizens are paying more than other EU citizens for bank bailout.
    · Bank bailout has cost every Irish person €13,956
    · Ten times more than every Spaniard

    Tuesday, September 4, 2012 – New Research from Stephen Donnelly, TD shows how Ireland fares compared to other EU countries that are also bailing out their banks.

    “Since the beginning of the European economic crisis, Ireland has poured €64bn into a failed banking system. That’s €13,956 for every man, woman and child. This per capita figure is more than other EU countries struggling with similar financial conditions.

    “My research shows that Ireland has paid three and a half times more than each person in Iceland, four times more than each Greek, six times more than each Cypriot, 23 times more than every Portuguese, 10 times more than every Spaniard and almost 200 times more than each Italian. This burden is unbearable.”

  12. Commesick Commesark

    11 Oct, 2012 - 8:38 am

    Those who guard and sit at the gates of the God of capitalism – CAPITAL , may be likened to small Gods. The only remedy for cutting them down to size is the magic of the marketplace. With fibre optic instantaneous communications between millions of players in the financial markets and computerised accounting, the need for Banks to achieve scale economies does not arise. The big banks may be broken up, with capital aggregating lenders in turn serving as their super bankers. Government simply cannot attract the kind of talented gamekeepers required to oversee the Enron kind of MBA crooks, only the marketplace and shareholders will reign in the bankster wannabees.

  13. Brian Spencer

    11 Oct, 2012 - 8:44 am

    @ John Goss 11 Oct, 2012 8:00 am

    John, the trouble I find with Facebook is that it tries to be all things to all people! It’s fine at a purely social level but not so good IMO for dealing with serious matters. That’s my perception anyway – suffice to say I’ve never really felt in my comfort zone when using it.

  14. Agree Brian. Not on it. Too invasive of one’s privacy.

    This is what they are up to with their British operation. Note the creep Zuckerberg’s comments at the bottom. Talk about helping people. He helped himself and went off with the money before the share price fell away.

    “Facebook has been accused of taking the British taxpayer for a ride after experts suggested the company had depressed sales figures and that the website’s average UK employee earned more last year than the whole social media network paid the exchequer.

    The British arm paid its 90 UK-based staff an average of £275,000 each in 2011 while contributing just £195,890 to the Treasury’s coffers, according to the firm’s latest accounts filed at Companies House.

    The website also reported UK revenues of £20.4m, a fraction of the £175m that media analysts estimate the firm made in the UK in 2011.

    Most of the sales are believed to have been booked in the firm’s international headquarters in Dublin, where they will attract lower corporation taxes.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/10/facebook-uk-taxes

    Note the salaries. That’s a total bill of £24.75m for the blessed 90.

  15. SOME governments are capable of holding the guilty to account -

    http://www.progress.org/2012/recovery.htm

    And it works, apparently.

  16. If not a fraud, a scam. The vultures piled in expecting a bonanza.

    The anger surrounding the sharp decline in the value of Facebook shares deepened yesterday when investors who have lost millions discovered that its founder apparently saved more than £110m by selling early.

    Mark Zuckerberg, the social network’s founder, sold shares in the company worth £720m on Friday, the day it floated on New York’s Nasdaq stock market. But the price plummeted soon afterwards, from the $38 a share (£23.95) at which Mr Zuckerberg sold his stock. The price difference meant Mr Zuckerberg saved £111m by getting out early.

    /..
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mark-zuckerberg-saved-111m-by-selling-facebook-shares-before-stock-slumped-7786269.html

    The shares are currently just over $20. Zuckerberg is thinking of going into the search engine business.

  17. Yeah, go over to the daily slog for another issue surfacing from RBS, and how he puts it ‘the raping of SME’s’

    I kinda like the feeling of getting this debt killed under ‘ODIOUS debt’. America did it in Iraq, and didn’t Chavez do it as well.

  18. The government’s only serious economic policies (out of I think, habit and quid pro quo from contributions) are directed at keeping the banks afloat; the banks don’t give a damn about anything but their survival and holding onto their right to commit the next set of crimes.

    This approach has been shown (Japan) to lead to economic stagnation with banks clinging on to ‘solvency’, so called zombie banks.

    Iceland has the right approach, if necessary let banks go to the wall and actually indict some bank CEOs; the policy is already paying dividends and, not un-importantly, feels so much better.

  19. Ginger Nuts (was: Apple Pies)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 9:27 am

    I will not be content until every lamp-post along Pall Mall has a dead politician, banker, journalist, and judge hanging by their feet. The “Royal” family can fuck off as well, bunch of freaks and perverts.

    I propose Dennis Skinner to be PM, with George Galloway as Foreign Secretary. The Chancellor will be picked by national lottery to ensure that at least 50% of decisions are correct (unlike the 0% we have had for the last 20 years.)

    [Mod/Jon: posted as Apple Pies, but has posted in the past under Ginger Nuts, so fixing]

  20. The problem with bankers, politicians, arms manufacturers etc is that they are all singing from the same hymnsheet.
    Their song is roughly, “You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours, and to hell with any stupid peasant who wants honesty and decency to count for anything.”
    The bankers back scratching consists of robbing us all blind. The politicians then change the laws so the bankers are protected. And the arms manufacturers? Afghanistan, Iraq…

  21. Ginger Nuts (was: Apple Pies)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 9:33 am

    “This never took off. I don’t think people trust Facebook groups.”

    How can people trust an outfit that was created with CIA funds, has robbed investors and pension funds of billions in a fraudulent IPO and managed to pay less that half a million tax on UK profits of £170 million?

    [Mod/Jon: posted as Apple Pies, but has posted in the past under Ginger Nuts, so fixing]

  22. Good argument, and although it’s fun to engage in a bit of hyperbole, I wouldn’t condone killing anyone, banker, burglar or otherwise. There is far too great a tendency to trivialise and normalise killing in our society.
    .
    Why not take the lead from Iceland, and bring criminal trials against them, then seize their assets and lock them up? Much more civilized.

  23. Facebook is a good example of what’s wrong. It consists – entirely – of binary digits. It has no intrinsic value whatever – what is being sold is shares in the intangible expectation of its making money from (a) buying other shares and (b)advertising revenue. Which is derived from selling the intangible expectation of making money to the advertisers. Who in turn are selling the intangible expectation to some manufacturers, who pass the costs on to the consumer, who has actually obtained nothing extra for the extra cost, or to yet more salesmen of intangible expectations like banks and insurance agents…
    There’s nothing there. It’s a vacuum. The concept of value has evaporated.

  24. Sam. Quite agree. Then shoot them?

  25. “…they have however sacked over a hundred thousand mostly female staff from their high street branches.”

    An indication that they employed mostly women in the first place:

    http://jimmygiro.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/measuring-real-bias-in-employment.html

  26. Craig: We might spare a few to put in cages and hurl filth at. Be reasonable.

  27. Keiser this week on banks -

    http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-351-max-keiser/

    Kicks off with the Guardian being all things to all readers, and you may recognise the taxi driver….

  28. Gideon should be sent on an apprenticeship to Iceland, with his preferred set of whips, enough cocaine to keep his mind numbed from the otherwise normal thinking that might break out and a bible, just in case.

    I like the idea of hanging them upside down from lamp posts, not withstanding that they need strengthening due to bankers considerable weight, it would give every child and dog in town the opportunity to show what they think of him and it would stop cars damaging lamp posts.

  29. KingofWelshNoir

    11 Oct, 2012 - 9:55 am

    ‘Great post Craig, except for capitulating to the new spelling of gaol’

    Gaol or Jail?

    Both are correct:

    The word came into English in two forms, jaiole from Old French and gayole from Anglo-Norman French gaole (surviving in the spelling gaol), originally pronounced with a hard g, as in goat

    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/jail

    The important thing is to put the bankers in one.

    Or bring back another great Old Englishe institution: the stocks.

  30. Craig – shooting is definitely tempting, but for anyone that isn’t already aware of it, I also strongly recommend checking out http://www.positivemoney.org.uk for an easy-to-grasp analysis of the roots of the banking problem, and what to do about it.

  31. Ginger Nuts (was: Apple Pies)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 9:58 am

    “I wouldn’t condone killing anyone, banker, burglar or otherwise.”

    Yeah, not now perhaps but that can soon change.

    [Mod/Jon: posted as Apple Pies, but has posted in the past under Ginger Nuts, so fixing]

  32. The LIBOR fraud, truly spectacular in scale, was perfectly legal. Yet another example of a crime committed by the well connected being considered not a crime at all. I’m afraid we might have to shoot the law makers too.

  33. And who was on watch to “protect” the nation from the spivs and charlatans who ruined the UK economy and placed us all into abject debt? None other than Howard Davies:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Davies_(economist)

    Davies was head of the FSA at exactly the time when the city was first let loose on a rampage of ponzi schemes, dodgy financial instruments, liar loans, toxic credit and awarding themselves huge salaries. Having sat on his hands until 2003 he ensured the FSA was fully primed in its utter failure to curtail city excess, and went on to head that supplier of academics in support of the bankers’ “step on everyone” charter, The LSE, where he distinguished himself by accepting donations from Libya via Gaddafi’s son after which he quietly resigned.

    His whole life has been spent wandering around the inner circle of corporate clubs whose members do the rounds of banking, then “regulation”, then banking again, then educational institutions, then a spot of banking yet again. At each stop Davies either achieved nothing or worse, screwed things up. This perpetual round robin of executive posts is something Davies has particularly excelled at. At no time in his entire career has Davies ever produced anything that any intelligent person could consider useful or of value.

    Once a member of the corporate rent-a-spiv society, it doesn’t matter whether you are a complete failure, you are in the charmed circle and your entire career is a relentless acquisition of blue chip posts, none of which are of the slightest import or use.

    In an almost kafkaesque twist, Howard Davies actually went on a lecture tour lately (including South Africa) advising institutions about financial regulation!

    Davies is just one example within the excrable cabal of failed academics and city slickers, retired judges, Lords, retired Civil Servants, advisers and a host of other quite useless hangers-on, few of whom have done an honest day’s work in their lives, who spend the autumn of their existence moving from one pointless, but highly rewarded, post to another. Here is a summary of his main “achievements”:

    Deputy Governor Bank of England 1995-1997
    Chairman Financial Services Authority 1997-2003 (or is that Freedom for Spivs Authority?)
    Director LSE 2003-2011 (resigned for accepting case from Gaddafi)
    Adviser to chancellor exchequer (Lawson)
    On the board of Paternoster consultants (Goldman Sachs owned)
    Director Morgan Stanley

    The Morgan Stanley link is of particular interest. This vast corporation is one of the most censured, most prosecuted corporations in existence in the US, having had fines in excess of 100 million dollars levied upon it while Davies was a director, for misrepresenting securities, excessive bond fees and commissions, negligence in servicing domestic mortgages, failure to disclose research in breach of disclosure regulations, multiple instances of insider trading, fictitious sales of Eurodollar and treasury futures and so on The list is long.

    And this outcome from supposed ex-financial regulator.

    There are many many more examples of “doing the rounds” of institutions by a circus of incompetent, unaccountable, highly paid and ghastly individuals. Davies is just one of them. Anymore?

  34. I have no doubt that the continued fraud by the financial institutions backed by those in Parliament is tantamount to Treason.

  35. This trouble with fat cats who do too well is endemic in our chosen (or evolved) system of free enterprise capitalism. While it is very satisfying to write of hanging people, putting them up against a wall, purging society of parasites, etc. etc., it isn’t constructive. If you did that, after the party things would in fact go right downhill as we actually need some really selfish, energetic, ruthless people to drive the economy forward. Let’s face it, most of us are far too reasonable and sane to drive progress. We rely on those who are, for whatever reason, mentally warped enough to be under a compulsion to outdo others.
    .
    Abraham Lincoln, as so often, summed things up neatly when he said that “Statesmanship is the art of exploiting individual meannesses for the general good”. In the mental picture this conjures up, bankers and captains of industry are like so many donkeys harnessed to a great wheel that moves the economy, always straining forward to reach the carrots that are forever just out of reach. Lincoln knew perfectly well that human nature is deeply flawed, and that we all have character weaknesses that make us selfish and inconsiderate. Nothing abashed, he set about finding how to align those selfish motives into a grand Newtonian vector sum whose resultant pointed upwards – for us all.
    .
    Unfortunately, statesmen in the Lincolnian sense are few and far between. People like Blair, Brown, Cameron, and Clegg cannot tweak the laws in such a way as to force bankers, willy-nilly, to contribute to the common good. Contrariwise, the bankers have infiltrated the corridors of power and are progressively reshaping the law to suit their own convenience. There they recline, amid a heap of luscious juicy carrots, gorging themselves while the wheels of the economy lie idle.
    .
    If only there were a way to divorce wealth from power. In the free, open, democratic, globalized world we have created, anyone with enough money can exert power. That power gives access to more wealth, which accretes more power… in a positive feedback loop.

  36. Not to worry. Price Waterhouse Cooper will detect any suspicious dealings and take effective action…

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/27/1136928/-Romney-s-Accounting-Firm-PwC-Has-HUGE-History-of-FRAUD

    The Big Four audit firms—Deloitte & Touche, Ernst & Young, KPMG and
    PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC)—audit all but one of the FTSE 100 companies, and
    represent 99% of audit fees in the FTSE 350.

    (Competition and choice in the UK audit market
    Prepared for Department of Trade and Industry and Financial Reporting Council, April 2006)

    arf.

  37. No, don’t shoot them or gaol them. Make them pay it back as community service on minimum wage. They’d be done in a few centuries.

    Alternatively, the entire City of London should be entombed in a concrete sarcophagus, like Chernobyl.

  38. I’m glad you’ve brought up this topic, Craig, and I predict a very lively reaction from the forum. I would only quibble with this bit:

    “….. to fund the bank bailouts in which my cash was given to reckless and incompetent bankers to cover their gambling losses.”

    I would say there was nothing reckless or incompetent about their actions, they knew exactly what they were doing, i.e. deliberately manufacturing financial crises which result in them ….
    (a) being given huge sums of money
    (b) configure the global economy to suit their long term purposes.
    (c) further their long term policy of sickening people with the actions of irresponsible national banks so that we demand a “supervised” global bank.
    These bankers don’t gamble.

  39. @Tom Welsh: “While it is very satisfying to write of hanging people, putting them up against a wall, purging society of parasites, etc. etc., it isn’t constructive. If you did that, after the party things would in fact go right downhill as we actually need some really selfish, energetic, ruthless people to drive the economy forward.”

    This is exactly the kind of twisted understanding that allows those very bankers and corporate spivs to ruin economies. Far from constructively building economies or trade that is to the benefit of the electorate, the vast majority of those “ruthless” people you speak of do not create anything, do not invent anything and do not add to a nation’s growth or GDP. In the main, these people dominate a market, monopolise, asset-strip, inflate values artificially then sell, manipulate, con, deal in questionable instruments and dodgy non-assets, hide debts, miss-sell, defraud, cook the books, reside in tax havens, and almost everything they do is nothing whatever to the common good and everything to do with their own inflated sense of entitlement.

    That is why, when the mainstream media present programmes about the economy, real people who work for a living, real engineers, real companies who actually PRODUCE things that others find useful, are never invited on. Instead they wheel on failed bankers, failed economists, share manipulators, spivs, failed regulators, columnists, city slickers and a sundry mix of charlatans who do nothing whatever in pursuit of proper growth in the economy.

    These people you apparently think are the real drivers of economies are in fact the very people who spend their whole life doing nothing more than slicing up large cake slices for themselves, and the odd thing is that you acknowledge that in your second paragraph but imply the exact opposite in your first.

    The flaw in your argument is that being reasonable and sane cannot drive progress. The opposite is the case, and that is palpable since those ruthless people you feel are regretfully necessary HAVE just ruined the economies of half the nations of Europe!

  40. How the Financial Lobbyists Carried the Day
    The Bankers vs. The People
    by MIKE WHITNEY

    Last Thursday, the Wall Street Journal ran an article titled “Burdened by Old Mortgages, Banks Are Slow to Lend Now“, in which, author Nick Timiraos said that the reason that housing has been so slow to recover is because Fannie and Freddie “have been forcing banks to take back an increasing number of loans that the banks made during the boom years.” According to Timiraos, the banks have “grown wary of making new loans” and “are ratcheting up credit and documentation standards for new mortgages.”

    From the WSJ:

    “Mortgage credit is tighter than it should be,” said Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner at a Senate hearing in July. “And the main reason for that is because banks…feel much more vulnerable now to what people call ‘put-back.’ ”

    This play-it-safe stance by banks threatens to undercut the Federal Reserve’s latest effort to push down mortgage rates by buying up mortgage-backed securities. Even if rates keep falling, many people will find it much harder to take advantage.”

    Timiraos does have a point. Certainly housing and the overall economy would be doing better if credit was expanding at a brisker pace. But does that mean the banks should ease lending standards again like they did before the meltdown? And, does that mean the banks shouldn’t be held accountable for the bad loans they made? Timiraos seems to think so. Take a look:

    /..

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/10/10/the-bankers-vs-the-people/

  41. I vote for Craig for PM

  42. Even here, there seem to be those who define ‘progress’ as ‘economic growth’.

    Anyone who believes in infinite growth on a finite planet is either an economist or insane.

  43. Did someone say “real people who work for a living, real engineers, real companies who actually PRODUCE things that others find useful,”?

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Al1Cy1H3n8gpdElTeFBTVlRfclczQnpjVWREYkN4N1E#gid=0

    I don’t think the Government knows about them.

  44. Mary: Your quote about “housing being so slow to recover” is a common one. I realise that is not perhaps your own view. But what is meant by “recovery”? Does it mean the recovery of past inflated prices? (I suspect it does). Or does it mean an increase in house sale transactions?

    Whatever it means, the conventional wisdom on the “housing market” is nearly always predicated on house prices, and specifically HIGH prices, as the yardstick of recovery. In fact the exact oppposite is the case, since as long as any economy is fundamentally reliant on the perceived value of static assets, then investment in proper growth is stalled. In fact no amount of lending, and no amount of “affordable” housing is really going to make houses truly affordable, unless the capital cost of ALL housing declines.

    All the political parties are aligned in being utterly paranoid about upsetting EXISTING house owners, and that translates to keeping interest rates absurdly low in order for those owners to continue their illusion that their houses really are worth perhaps double what they should be.

    The only way to solve this is to do the pole opposite of what is happening now, and that is to stop house price inflation for good, by raising interest rates a modest amount in order to head off any more house price inflation and make proper investment in REAL things that are worthwhile. Instead we are hung up about supporting the unsupportable – ridiculous house values.

    The huge mistake between 1997 and 2006 was to make housing almost the SOLE means of making money for many. But an already built house cannot create wealth. It can only create ARTIFICIAL wealth for those who happened to cash in on a bubble. Everyone else PAID for that bubble by having to pay a ludicrously high proportion of disposable income in order to get a roof over their heads. Thus the housing bubble was at its core a re-distribution of wealth from the house-less to the house owners. The illusion that this was a net gain in wealth was the fundamental cause of the entire meltdown of our economy, but astoundingly that illusion still persists today.

    The only way to for housing to recover in the true sense of that word, is for house prices to plunge, and the only way to make “affordable” housing is not to build isolated so-called affordable housing (which just means poky homes on cheap estates subsidised by the tax payer), but to lower the capital cost of ALL housing and stop house price speculation for good.

    There are four distinct ways to do this:

    1. Raise interest rates to encourage prices to go down and to encourage investment in REAL industry.

    2. Penalise those who persistently make a living from speculating in property.

    3. Learn from the German housing model of the 1990s and 2000s. ie: no distinction in social status between renting and “owning” (parenthesis because very few ever “own” a house since they are renting it via a mortgage from a bank). Plentiful rented sector, fairly provided at a reasonable cost and with tenancies of at least one year (not our ridiculous six months – see Thatcher). Result: very little house price inflation.

    4. Stop the diversion of investment funds away from speculative gambling and towards proper investment in infrastructure and goods and services that actually add to GDP, not steal from it.

  45. Max Keiser on BBC Daily Politics right now!

  46. The mechanism for rationalising the housing sector (and any other loan- fuelled “asset” market) is, as George mentioned above, to prevent private enterprise from creating notional money to balance its loan books.

    Again: good site, sensible and informed thinking -http://www.positivemoney.org.uk

    As opposed to the current efforts to reinflate the old bubble so that the usual suspects can continue charging rent on rent on rent on someone else’s money which never represented real value in the first place.

  47. @Pan,

    “Anyone who believes in infinite growth on a finite planet is either an economist or insane.”

    Or both?

  48. Hello craig and your readers,

    Your article `establishment darkness` was very interesting and for me shocking, thanks to all the people who posted comments and links it was an education and a revelation.
    As for the bankers, the politicians and other people in positions of power who enable and benefit from their activities they will never see a rope, or any sort of justice. i find the great majority of people in london, to be self absorbed, self obsessed and wilfully ignorant, at every level, this seems to be the new normal. it seems as though people have regressed in every sense. so many people live by the mantra of im alright jack f**k you. when disorder breaks out it will not be directed at those responsible. neighbourhoods will turn against themselves along lines of race, wealth, religion etc.
    First of all i think people need to stand back and evaluate, truthfully and ruthlessly their own complicity in the creation of the situation we find ourselves in, no one is innocent. how many of you benefitted from the housing boom trading up property and the like, how many of you gladly embrace and indulge yourselves in consumerism, how many iphone or ipad users think of the slave worker who manufactured that device while you`re using it, how many of you wonder where it goes when you`ve finished with it ie the beautiful countryside and beaches of ghana for instance.
    ie which ones of you truthfully and in a practical sense give a sh1t when viewed through a harsh lens?
    A few years ago in another capacity i met many people who work for the press, tv, plc`s government etc and generally i was not impressed, the greed, self righteousness etc of the bankers et al is reflected by the majority of people on an individual level.
    Im sorry but publications like the guardian, the independent (from what?), programmes like newsnight etc etc are of the swamp, with very little to be offered in mitigation.
    Saying that you would kill a banker i take as largely metaphorical, and sadly glib. they are just the top of a pyramid that is underpinned by a great many others, including myself and all of you.
    When the shtf it will largely be the youth who do the hands on rioting as i did when in my 20`s over the poll tax, mob disorder will solve nothing merely strengthen the hand of tptb. its the responsibility of intelligent, reasonable and truthful people to take this society in a positive direction, and that includes each and every reader of this blog, the change starts with you.
    A previous glimmer of hope in this realm was the green party back in the late 80`s-90`s but it soon became clear that right-on-ness and liberal drivel crippled it at the start line. as in life in general many people have a secret axe to grind, are dogmatic and seek to suppress truths they dont like, or are contrary to their agenda.
    I could go on but i wont i hope you get the jist of what im saying.
    Please visit these sites amongst others to inform yourself and others with ears to listen,

    RT putins propaganda channel yes, but they dont need to make it up just shout the truth loudly and repeatedly
    Max Keiser
    Marketoracle
    Bill Bonner on dailyreckoning.com.au
    Zerohedge
    Alt. market
    The Burning Platform
    Chris Hedges column on truthdig
    A very interesting documentary about history of banking – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H56FUHgqRNE
    To name but a few
    etc

  49. Meanwhile, who will shoot the Uzbeki regime henchmen? On 6th of October last weekend an 18 year old Navruz Islamov was beaten to death by uzbek police in Kashkadarya region for refusing to pick cotton due to health reasons. It was saturday and Navruz went to go to cotton fields for his mother to pick cotton for her who is a teacher and must pick certain amount of cotton(In Uzbekistan you don’t have weekend day offs). It was a hot day and after working a while Navruz felt unwell, he wanted to go home. However, uzbek police, like nazi wardens during WW2, were watching people in cotton fields. They beat up Navruz so badly for refusing to return to cotton fields he died on the way to hospital. Nobody talks about such atrocities in Uzbekistan, because Uzbeki henchmen are friends of America and Britain. Shame on anyone who is proud to be british or american!

  50. UK pays £400million/Each day in INTEREST on its debt.

    How did RBS get that £1.3 trillion hole in its balance sheet?

    10 years it went from assets on £88 billion to liabilities of £1.3 trillion. these losses belong to the tax payer.

  51. @Gary Smith – You are right.

    In a nutshell, changing the world begins with changing oneself.

  52. An interesting exercise:

    Walk down your local High Street and count the businesses which can still afford town centre rates and prestigious buildings. Total up the ones that deal in money – banks, building societies, currency exchanges, pay day loaners, insurance companies, investment brokers, pawn brokers, cheque cashers, gold buyers, cash converters, etc. Now total up all the rest.

    Hmmm.

  53. Why do government feel the need to save banks, for example northern rock had 2 billion in deposits and 110 billion in mortgages, if it went bust, 2 billion would be lost in deposits and 110 billion would get wiped out in mortgages, the government the can then ask the mortgage holders if they can repay 2% of their mortgage to clear the amount, and give that money to the depositors, problem solved, don’t see how this would require massive billion pound bailouts,

  54. In PARLIAMENT this Wednesday, the MP for Clacton, Douglas Carswell, with support from my co-director here at the Cobden Centre, Steve Baker, the Member for Wycombe, introduced a Ten Minute Rule Bill seeking dramatic reform of the UK’s banks, writes Toby Baxendale.

    The bill was brought in with no objections, and the next reading will be on the 19th of November. You can read the full text of Carswell’s speech at TheyWorkForYou. Steve Baker has been promoting its ideas on his CentreRight blog, which also carries a survey – conducted on our behalf by ICM – showing great confusion on the part of the British public concerning the legal relationship between banker and customer.

    The current state of the law? The key case is Carr v Carr 1811 (reported in Merivale (541 n) 1815 – 17). A testator in making his bequest said “whatever debts might be due to him…at the time of his death”, the key question in this case being whether “a cash balance due to him on his banker’s account” passed by this bequest. The Master of the Rolls, Sir William Grant held that it did. He reasoned that it was not a depositum; a sealed bag of money could be, but this generally deposited money could not possibly have an ‘earmark’.

  55. In judgment, the Lord Chancellor Cottenham said the following:
    “Money, when paid into a bank, ceases altogether to be the money of the principal; it is by then the money of the banker, who is bound to return an equivalent by paying a similar sum to that deposited with him when he is asked for it.

    “The money paid into a banker’s is money known by the principal to be placed there for the purpose of being under the control of the banker; it is then the banker’s money; he is known to deal with it as his own; he makes what profit of it he can, which profit he retains to himself, paying back only the principal, according to the custom of bankers in some places, or the principal and a small rate of interest, according to the custom of bankers in other places.

    “The money placed in custody of a banker is, to all intents and purposes, the money of the banker, to do with it as he pleases; he is guilty of no breach of trust in employing it; he is not answerable to the principal if he puts it into jeopardy, if he engages in a hazardous speculation; he is not bound to keep it or deal with it as the property of his principal; but he is, of course, answerable for the amount, because he has contracted, having received that money, to repay to the principal, when demanded, a sum equivalent to that paid into his hands.

    “That has been the subject of discussion in various cases, and that has been established to be the relative situation of banker and customer. That being established to be the relative situations of banker and customer, the banker is not an agent or factor, but he is a debtor.”
    Thus the settled position of the law is that when you deposit, the bank becomes the owner of the money deposited and you become a creditor to the bank.

    The Carswell Bill, in contrast, seeks to align the law with what people actually think happens: that they deposit money and it is theirs. It also seeks to allow savers to save in a term deposit, by which they knowingly and indeed willingly allow the bank to lend their money to borrowers. This relationship will then be that of a depositor lending to the bank and the bank being the debtor to the lender.

  56. Hang the bankers? Sure, go for it! (I don’t think anyone would doubt the outcome of a national referendum based on the question “Should those responsible for the ‘financial crisis’ be prosecuted?”)

    Having said that, I see evidence of the general public’s complicity in this culture of greed every time I pass a lottery ticket stall – more often than not, there is a long queue of people with a certain kind of look on their faces – a kind of suppressed but visible anxiousness (Will I win this time?).

    We have become a nation of gamblers. And most gamblers are losers (ask any casino/betting shop worker)!

    I have never bought a lottery ticket myself, not because I couldn’t use the money if I won, but because I find the whole thing repulsive and I just don’t want to participate in it. The repulsion I feel towards the national lottery (and all its spin-offs) is much stronger than the occasional frustration I feel when I can’t afford something I want/need.

    I suspect that a majority of ‘ordinary’ people, given the chance to pay themselves huge annual bonuses (like corporate CEOs) would do so. So how different would those ‘ordinary’ people then be, from the criminal bankers? And how different are they now? The only difference is one of opportunity!

  57. @LeonardYoung

    Thanks for that comment re: housing market, that strikes me as a very clear-sighted analysis.

  58. As I se it, the reason why New Labour bailed out Northern Rock was not for the sake of the bankers but to prevent millions of core Labour supporters losing their savings, and consequently the party losing a large number of seats in parliament.

    In a democracy, a ruling party that does this sort of thing should be voted ou8t of power. And so they were.

    You see, democracy in the UK works just fine. :)

  59. Gamblers?

    “Trader turned neuroscientist explores risky highs”

    LONDON | Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:29am EDT

    (Reuters) – When John Coates was on a winning streak during his days as a trader at Deutsche Bank and Goldman Sachs, the narcotic-like “high” he experienced was so powerful he was determined to find out more.

    So after 13 years on trading floors on Wall Street he moved to the neuroscience labs of Rockefeller University in New York and of Britain’s Cambridge University.

    Here, the trader turned neuroscientist has been bent on uncovering the brain biology behind that high, what it did to him, and what it’s probably doing to those he left behind.

    What he’s come up with, after several years reading up on animal studies and some interesting experiments with spit, is that risk taking is driven by a “winner effect” – a hormonal mechanism in which each competitive victory leads to more wins.

    “The narcotic high was as powerful as anything I have ever felt,” Coates said in an interview during a medical conference in London, describing the experience of making huge profits and big bonuses at some of the world’s largest banks.

    And as other experts in psychiatry and neuroscience at the conference agreed, the consequences of a winner effect gone out of control can lead some to become power-corrupted politicians, cruel military dictators and even surgeons who like to play god.

    Continues
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/us-neuroscience-risk-idUSBRE8990GR20121010

    Me, I’m interested in the “experiments with spit”. As far as I know, the figures Neil quoted about Irish citizens, up top, are correct. And it’s all to pay back French and German (and British) banks who took a gamble on the famous ‘Celtic Tiger’ and lost. But who have to be paid back anyway – according to our bendy-backed Government. Have you ever seen a more weak-willed-looking PM than Enda Kenny? (Featured recently on the cover of Time magazine with the title, ‘The Celtic Comeback’.) I call him the cardboard man.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-celtic-comeback-enda-kenny-makes-cover-of-time-magazine-3250794.html

  60. Oops, sorry, this time I put in TWO links. Entirely my own fault.

    When will they ever learn?
    When will they e–ver learn?

  61. Mary, Brian, your comments are right on the button. I just wish there was an alternative social-networking site with the pull of Facebook that was not a tool for information-gathering. I think I’m one of the few who use it for politicising. But I use it for social contact too. Most of my friends steer clear of politics. I like to thing they are boiling with disgust under their skins. But who knows?

  62. G Edward Griffin “The Creature of Jekyll Island” http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=Q93R5EQVOLI

    You don’t need more than a revolver to finish off those responsible for the fractional reserve banking system and the subsequent tyranny we are now living in.

    They are responsible for and the real owners of the European Union and Globalisation is their scheme.

  63. @Jives “You couldn’t fu**ing make it up!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/oct/10/bbc-review-liberal-bias

    - Oops, we’re off-topic here, but can’t resist commenting:

    “A Daily Mail [the paragon of even-handed political and social comment] leader column last week accused the BBC of double standards, claiming it “consistently attacks Christianity (though never Islam)”

    Excuse me, but doesn’t the BBC usually refer to Muslims as “Islamic militants” (or “Islamists” – a term inherently critical and negative) and heavily-armed far-right-wing Jewish illegal occupiers (of Palestinian territory) as “settlers” (“settlers” sounds so peaceful, doesn’t it?

    No, you couldn’t make it up, but Orwell saw it coming!

  64. The web is of course ubiquitous, wall to wall, wherever – and Facebook inherits the same reach, the same congruous birthmarks; the nature of the beast, to use or abuse.

    Thus it is negative to kick up a fuss about a 600 million user weblog called Facebook except to expose those who capitalise on that massive reach to invalidate the synergy of team glue, the marriage of a common vision, be it playing games, idle chat or eliciting support and guidance.

    That should be the spirit of the web; void of soul we are not human, deficient in kindness, mercy and compassion.

  65. Some of its reporters put awkward questions to politicians and even try to insist on straight answers. Hence, it is leftwing.

    And compared with our American mentors, this country is a hotbed of revolutionary Marxism. Even the BNP.

  66. CCTV wherever you go,whether outside or in shops/venues.

    Facebook and other so-CIA-l media data-mining everything.

    Over 700 Govt agencies able to tap/surveill you.

    Google etc tracking every click you make.

    Google street view.

    Apple/Samsung etc in your home and pocket;listening and watching through your mobile/TV/radio.

    And that’s only the stuff we know about.

    WTF is going on???

  67. Don’t have to shoot them ALL. Bankers are like boars; shoot one and the rest get the wind up.

    Here in Barcelona, a few centuries back, we had a spate of bent bankers. Laws were passed, and one banker was beheaded for fiddling the scales. Normality was immediately ressumed!
    http://antique-banks.blogspot.com.es/2012/06/banking-in-catalonia-in-fourteenth-and.html

  68. Sorry if it seems my surveillance rant seems OT but the point i was trying to make in relation to this thread was that there seems to total surveillance (Total Information Awareness) everywhere except where it’s really needed i.e.the boardrooms and Westminster.

    Of course i’m not naive enough to think this was exactly the plan…

  69. Tory backbencher Douglas Carswell introduced his Financial Services (Regulation of Deposits and Lending) Bill on 15 September 2010.
    The aim of the bill – introduced under the ten minute rule motion – is to prohibit banks and building societies lending on the basis of demand deposits without the permission of the account holder.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_commons/newsid_8995000/8995686.stm

  70. “WTF is going on???”

    Looks like someone is into control. Now who can that be? Who is paying off the politicians, who owns the media? Who makes billions on wars? Who have a megalomaniac psychopathic desire to rule the animals in human form? Not the bankers, or…?

    And what is the political ideology of those bankers? Zionism. There you go.

  71. So a blog which devotes much time to praising the sanctity of life and condeming the British and American governments of almost routine murder now calls for the murder of their fellow citizens and lynchings? I am constantly amazed at the new depths which the author and those who share his opinions can sink to. Utterly pathetic, yet quite funny for those of us with a more rational disposition.

  72. Heh, try the “liberal bias” in this recent corker:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19786929

    I keep meaning to post that to the Media Lens board – the angry bias in that one is surely worthy a complaint, even if it goes nowhere.

  73. @IK5, you think if you provided to Craig his imaginary householder arsenal, plus Fred The Shred tied to a post, that our host would pull the trigger? I don’t.

    But I do think the banking class has a lot to answer for. Try as I might, I couldn’t find anything about that in your post just now. Perhaps if I get a magnifying glass on the last full stop, something cogent about that will be written there, in very small text?

    ;)

  74. Jon – I actually thought that was pretty neutral. Which bit did you object to?

  75. “fellow citizens” implies some sort of communality of interest and behaviour, doesn’t it? And no-one was advocating lynchings. A trial under established laws regarding theft and fraud, followed by a public judicial execution would be quite sufficient.

  76. IK5

    “So a blog which devotes much time to praising the sanctity of life and condeming the British and American governments of almost routine murder now calls for the murder of their fellow citizens and lynchings? I am constantly amazed at the new depths which the author and those who share his opinions can sink to. Utterly pathetic, yet quite funny for those of us with a more rational disposition.2

    How was your sense of humour bypass? I bet you’re a hoot at a party.

  77. “I am constantly amazed at the new depths which the author and those who share his opinions can sink to.”

    Check out this infographic. It’s about laughter and how it’s good for you.

    http://www.bitrebels.com/lifestyle/health-benefits-of-laughter-infographic/

  78. The roots of many problems do appear to lie in the banking system. If you haven’t already, I heartily recommend you read Web of Debt by Ellen Brown.

  79. Very melodramatic, Craig. The final cost of the bank bailouts will not be very large, assuming of course that the government’s stakes in Lloyds and RSB are sold for a reasonable price and that the guarantees are not called upon.

  80. I am intermittently amazed at people who are constantly amazed. Requires intense concentration on object of amazement while maintaining correct uniform level of amazement. Sir, I salute you.

  81. You mean like Northern Rock, James C? The auditors reckon that the taxpayer is out of pocket by £2Bn on that one alone.

  82. Thought for The Day:
    Give a man a gun & he can rob a bank; give a man a bank & he can rob the World.

  83. Jives,

    I had a similar argument I believe with Dave Davis(pseudonym) in WebCameron, on civil liberties, that is until I read this:

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/toryleadership/files/dd_answers_to_cfi_questions.pdf

    All is not what it seems to be and Davis is struggling to grip the mettle even though he supported the civil liberties campaign group Big Brother Watch and in January 2010 he spoke with Tony Benn at the official launch.

    bigbrotherwatch.org.uk

    We are a somewhat private and cautious nation which can present difficulties when advocating a ‘One mind Won Victory’ approach to route and KO the execrable minds of the false democratic value proponents who confuse Judaism with Zionism and overlook the suffering of many past and present.

    I find transparency is key. To look the bastards in the face presents a problem to them.

    The world of the ‘others’ is waterlogged by deception, permeated by lies. They cannot survive in this world or in the next where in fact one mind, one conscious is indeed de rigeur and victory.

  84. Wow!, Craig,

    Exactly!

  85. Dragonly drollery…lol

  86. @ Mark Golding,

    Thanks for the link and your,as always,astute thoughts.

    I’ve always thought DD was a straw-man,the token Tory sop to the civil liberty issues.

  87. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 4:16 pm

    Stocks and Pillories would be more entertaining, as long as there is sufficient wilted produce for pelting, that is.

    During the Bush regime, I suggested we take all the war criminals and divest them of their ill-gotten riches from the war, and requiring each to work at minimum wage jobs flipping burgers, living in tenements for a period not less than 10 years.

    As for burglars versus bankers, the advice from a Hollywood gangster; “Never steal anything small”

  88. “How was your sense of humour bypass? I bet you’re a hoot at a party.”

    My thoughts also. But then, well they did fund Hitler’s war machine, and as a group they have probably funded both sides of many major conflicts.
    ‘Crucifixion is too good for em’ comes to mind.

    I don’t know if a punishment has been invented that could seem like justice in the face of such inhumanity perpetrated for money. And they all do it, ‘it’s just a job’. Well I’d say there a breed as bad as any fascist or other nutty groups because there the enablers, an no kind of morals come into it.

    I don’t believe in punishment but I do believe in stopping injustice. I was going to suggest the executions at Nuremberg as an example, I don’t think they needed to be killed but it’s hard to say the sentience was unjust, even if like me you believe killing is always wrong. Thinking of that example though, it was stupid to kill people who had already done the crime and I wonder if it was not more about emphasizing the ‘bad’ guys. Truth is there where many bad guys funding it, and they continue funding these things.

    It’s a mad world these people create that can only lead to more injustice and destruction. As a feeling ‘Shoot the bankers’ is spot on IMO.

    Make no mistake also. Destroying a country through fraud is not much different than war. Many thousands will still die where they otherwise would not. Malnutrition, suicide, increasing health costs for profit’s. And the bought and sold politicians will blame the victimises as they exploit them more than ever. You could not make it up, the low shitness they stoop to.

    And did anyone get was Cameron was going on about recently? ‘He is just a simple guy who whats to take care of his family’? As if he ever has to worry about money, as if he has ever had to. What a joke of a man. Did he not say a while back he wanted to be some sort of barron or duke or some such titel? What a backwards step for society to have such class ideas.

  89. @Komodo, re the Beeb article:

    “long after Marxism had been discredited in the West” – tells the reader what to think of Marxism.

    “An unrepentant Marxist” – in case we missed it the first time.

    Normally the establishment bias from Auntie is a lot more subtle, and probably mostly subconscious anyway, but here I thought it was stronger than usual. Frustrating, since the purpose is ostensibly an obituary, which are traditionally respectful.

  90. Robert Fallin

    11 Oct, 2012 - 5:02 pm

    Amen,Craig. One nice thing about it; if you pick bankers from the right companies, you do not have to worry about “collateral damage”.

  91. Should we shoot bankers? Would it not be better to take our money back off them? This one was shot.

    http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/engendering-sympathy-for-bankers.html

  92. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXhqvAbUDmg

    Bankers get thier just award.

  93. “One year on, I think the only thing that’s changed is that it’s very nice to walk past St Paul’s again. Apart from that, I don’t think Occupy has changed anything, I don’t think it achieved anything and I think most people in the City have probably forgotten about it and don’t even realise that it’s the one-year anniversary.”

    Joshua Raymond representing the City of London banking community.

    “As to the after-effects of Occupy, it’s there, it’s in the background at least. It’s still in the public consciousness. People are still doing things, making connections, meeting each other and getting projects rolling. Some of it will be called Occupy and some of it won’t.

    It is still a banner for a very broad-based group of people who are ready to talk to others they might not have met before, but have come to a shared understanding of the bankruptcy of our inherited economic model.”

    Rich Paton -Occupy movement.

    “My own perception is that the City of London as a key centre of the financial industry continues to grapple with issues of morality, integrity, financial regulation and policy. Occupy has not driven that process, but by its work has and does keep it in the public eye as a priority for policymakers.”

    Very Reverend Dr David Ison, Dean of St Paul’s Cathedral

    The additional sanctions on Iran issued by the White House October 9th 2012 contain the word ‘treasury’ i.e. ‘bank’ fourteen (14) times. It seems Craig is right in his ‘tongue in cheek’ assumption that guns i.e. ‘conflict and war’ and money are synonymous – hence ‘shoot a banker’ – very clever.

    In these recent sanctions we witness an extension to ‘goods’ and ‘property’ as a sufferance, a strong-arm tactic by America (and endorsed by Britain) towards a peaceful nation.

    Interestingly we note the clauses, ‘used to commit serious human rights abuses against the people of Iran’ – as if to negate the distress, hardship, misery and torture of the Iranian people by this additional punitive legislation.

    The prohibitions remind me of Palestine and Israel’s total lack of regard for the welfare of those imprisoned behind the shrinking concrete walls of a badland reservation, a dominion of severe poverty, disease and malnutrition.

    To me it seems America has learned to express neither remorse or compassion from it’s own bombing and confiscation of tribal lands (Pine Ridge) and the massacre of its indigenous people (Wounded Knee).

    I look you, President Obama in the face with the words of a fellow countryman:

    “I know of no other instance in history where a great nation has so shamefully violated its oath. Our country must forever bear the disgrace and suffer the retribution of its wrongdoing. Our children’s children will tell the sad story in hushed tones, and wonder how their fathers dared so to trample on justice and trifle with God.”

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/10/09/executive-order-president-regarding-authorizing-implementation-certain-s

  94. We need to fix the root causes.

    1. LIBOR etc should be based only on public, open data. Nobody ever managed to tamper with the value of the FTSE-100, because everyone can calculate it for themself.

    2. Instead of transaction tax, just rate-limit the transactions: all trades execute on the minute, every minute. Then humans can think as fast as the computers, and there is no unfair advantage from high-frequency trading (nor the problems that can result).

  95. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 5:55 pm

    ““I know of no other instance in history where a great nation has so shamefully violated its oath. Our country must forever bear the disgrace and suffer the retribution of its wrongdoing. Our children’s children will tell the sad story in hushed tones, and wonder how their fathers dared so to trample on justice and trifle with God.””

    I am part Blackfoot/Cherokee, and many Americans share a bloodline with NA’s who understand
    the History. Add to that my Scot/Irish ancestors who understand the tyranny of the Majority.

    Now, go fish.

  96. doug scorgie

    11 Oct, 2012 - 6:01 pm

    Phil 10:16
    It appears that any calls for launching a criminal investigation are being ignored while talk of fines, under civil proceedings, is the preferred option.

    However; manipulation of the Libor rate is covered adequately under Theft Act 1968 and the Fraud Act 2006 and as such is already a criminal offence. I query why this fact is not publically conceded by the government or the FSA.

    Public confidence in the rule of law will be seriously undermined if Libor manipulation; money laundering, miss-selling and other crimes are not addressed in criminal proceedings. If the criminal justice system can send people to prison for benefit fraud or stealing water why does it fail to even prosecute the ‘elite’ fraudsters?

    From the Guardian (28/09/12):
    “Martin Wheatley, a senior regulator at the Financial Services Authority recommended that the FSA should regulate the Libor system, and told the Today programme that in the extreme cases those who manipulate Libor should go jail.”
    [Why only in extreme cases? Fraud is fraud, theft is theft.]

    “Wheatley wants the law to be changed to make it an offence to make a false or misleading statement to manipulate Libor.”
    [As I have said these offences are covered under criminal law]

    Wheatley goes on:
    “This would enable the FSA to use criminal powers for the worst cases of attempted manipulation…”
    [They already have this power!]

    A press release from the Serious Fraud Office 30 July 2012 states:

    “Further to our announcement on 2 July 2012, the Director of the Serious Fraud Office, David Green QC, is satisfied that existing criminal offences are capable of covering conduct in relation to the alleged manipulation of LIBOR and related interest rates.”

    We are being misled by the government and the FSA.
    Instead of anticipating fines the bankers and others should be packing small suitcases in anticipation of prison sentences.

  97. I don’t recall ever reading such a succinct ‘on the button’ critique of the system as Murray’s piece here.

    It was totally justified for him to have made the kind of obvious parallels that the mainstream media should be making in their editorials.

    It rather reminded me of the polemic of Michael Moore in “Capitalism: A Love Story” – accurate, relevant and powerful.

    That stirred something up in me, it really did.

  98. See, the problem with shooting or lynching bankers is that someone will come along and object to violence and all that stuff.

    So, I say throw those bankers to the crocodiles. Nobody objects to big hungry crocs being up for a bite. I think it’s entirely natural actually.

  99. Welcome to the reality of conspiracies, common everyday events. It is just a bad word if used to point out the perpetrators of the largest conspiracies. Reality is this was planned behind closed doors and we are seeing the systematic looting of America and the world before the collapse. When the shtf lists of names of all these thieves need to be handed out and every one of them needs to be rounded up and publicly executed for crimes against humanity as an example to all who try try again.

  100. Crime wave in the City of London

    Hardly a week goes by without some new revelation of fraud and corruption in the heart of the City of London: mis-selling payment protection insurance, laundering drug money, breaking sanctions on Iran, handing out bribes to Middle Eastern sheikhs – the list goes on. Profit increasingly takes a parasitic form: interest, currency exchange deals and the manipulation of financial assets. Fraud is an extension of these methods of securing a share of surplus value and is invaluable to the British ruling class. However, the City has rivals for its dominant position in world finance and the cry of ‘foul’ has gone up, with demands for penalties and regulation. ‘A sword of Damocles is hanging over London,’ said one senior City figure quoted in the Financial Times (30 July 2012). Whatever the revelations and accompanying shows of remorse we can be sure that the City’s and the government’s priority is to remove that sword and keep the profits flowing in. TREVOR RAYNE reports.

    The City has used its so-called ‘light-touch’ regulatory regime to attract more international banks to London than any other city in the world. Loopholes in regulations were carefully designed to be identified by lawyers and exploited to attract money to London. The US and Europe lost out and want business back. The US was central to revealing Barclay’s Libor dealings (see ‘Something rotten in the heart of the City’, FRFI 228 August/September 2012). The European Parliament intends to cap bonuses at a ratio of one to one with salaries. If implemented, this would drive bankers and dealers out of the City.

    /..
    http://www.revolutionarycommunist.org/index.php/britain/2726-business-as-usual-for-the-banks

    This was linked by James Petras in his piece on Disident Voice entitled
    London: Parasites’s Paradise
    Or the Best Criminal Sanctuary Money Can Buy/October 10th, 2012
    {http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/10/london-parasitess-paradise/}

  101. “Nobody ever managed to tamper with the value of the FTSE-100″

    ROFL.

  102. “When that burglar crosses your threshold, invades your home, threatens your family, they give up their rights”. Leader Dave.

    Does this also apply to the Afghan who has his door kicked in at 3am by heavily armed English men?

  103. Doug Scorgie 11 Oct, 2012 – 6:01 pm
    “However; manipulation of the Libor rate is covered adequately under Theft Act 1968 and the Fraud Act 2006 and as such is already a criminal offence. I query why this fact is not publically conceded by the government or the FSA.”

    Thanks for the info in your comment.

    Presumably, as a criminal offense, it is within the powers of the police to prosecute?

  104. LeonardYoung

    11 Oct, 2012 - 8:20 pm

    An addendum to my post on housing. A classic illustration of the delusion of house owners and attitudes to the housing market is being broadcast right now (ITV1: The Housing Trap) where endless interviewees are dumfounded about either being unable to buy a house, or others are dumfounded about why they cannot sell their house in order to downsize, move abroac, create cash etc etc.

    This programme studiously avoids ever mentioning the ONE thing that would enable all these people to carry on with their stated intentions: LOWER THE PRICE. This obvious answer is never mentioned, as though it is a religious taboo to do so. For those who stupidly bought houses at an inflated price, rather than admitting their mistake, they are STILL hanging on to a notion of entitlement for a perceived right to make a profit, or at the very least break even, and in the absence of both, they refuse to sell.

    On the other hand, we have a parade of first time buyers, or mortgagees living in a dismal, cramped starter home for which they too paid excessively, who, rather than stick it out and call the bluff of those who refuse to lower the price of their former dream home, prefer to go to extremes to get the mortgage they need in order to climb the ladder. At no point do these staggeringly naive buyers ever consider that the simple solution is to OFFER LESS THAN THE ASKING PRICE.

    The property market is in flux because those at its polarised ends refuse to face reality. Housing is plentiful. There have been more homes on sale in the last three years than at any time in history. There is NO shortage of housing. There is a glut. The shortage myth is promoted by those with a vested interest in keeping prices high.

    Rightmove and other agents have enormous numbers of houses for sale on their books. The shortage is a manufactured story created by all the combined vested interests in keeping this fairytale alive: Estate agents, Surveyors, valuers, developers, builders, governmnent, building societies and, most perniciously of all, the media, whose own vested interest ranges from the personal property portfolios of TV producers to the endless property porn programmes appearing like a rash on all channels.

    The solution is so simple. LOWER THE PRICE. No amount of schemes, so-called “affordable” housing projects, shared ownership, special cases (nurses, firemen, teachers etc etc) will alter the fact that housing is too expensive. Those who bought at the end of the biggest, most damaging bubbles in the history of property are going to have to come clean. They bought at ridiculous prices and now they are going to have to sell at a loss. The government is beside itself to give the impression of not abandoning those stupid people, but they will have to.

    The damage done to them will be a great deal less than propping up the banks, who encouraged the bubble, for the next ten or fifteen years.

    Let houses find their own sensible price without manipulation from interest rates, Kirsty Allsop et al, and the whole edifice of property bullshit. The pain will be short lived compared with artificially propping up an unsustainable false economy.

    The housing gamble has RUINED this economy and those of many European nations. Every single banking excess, con, dodgy loan, flakey mnortgage, derivative, bond issue and bail out have their roots in the absurd notion that property alone creates wealth. We have learned that it doesn’t and yet the naive, stupid fantasy still persists that somehow property ownership is a substitute for WORK.

  105. I think i’d prefer to have them all jailed in special open windowed jails in town centers and central squares so we can all go and look at them daily and throw a few tomatoes and rotten vegetables as and when we feel like it – all done in a an ironic post modern way of course

  106. Apple Pies (11 Oct, 2012 – 8:04 pm): You need to watch yourself making remarks like that these days – it might land you in jail, or with hundreds of hours of community service plus fine. And I might be right there too, for agreeing with you.

  107. LeonardYoung

    11 Oct, 2012 - 8:50 pm

    @Abe Renne: “As I se it, the reason why New Labour bailed out Northern Rock was not for the sake of the bankers but to prevent millions of core Labour supporters losing their savings, and consequently the party losing a large number of seats in parliament.”

    No. Northern Rock was largely bailed out not in order to protect savers, but to protect BORROWERS who took out excessive, unsecured, interest-only mortgages, thereby supporting inflated house prices. At the time, almost the entire British economy was predicated on the fantasy that housing assets were the backbone of the feel good factor. This fantasy was in danger of collapsing and the Labour Government was not about to let that happen.

    Alistair Darling could have bailed out the Northern Rock savers at a fraction of the cost of bailing out Northern Rock itself. Subsequent bank bailouts had nothing to do with supporting joe public but everything to do with supporting the banks themselves. Almost every major bank could have been allowed to go bankrupt while at a tiny fraction of the bail out cost the individual investors could have been compensated.

    All quantatitive easing has achieved is too pour billions of taxpayers cash down a giant sieve which leaked at the sides. None of that cash reached the supposed intended target but was syphoned off to reward those whose failure evoked the bail outs in the first place. QE has been spectacularly wasteful. Billions of hard earned cash fleeced from the tax payer has propped up the perpetuation of corporate lifestyles, and almost none of that cash has reached the intended goal. I say intended but I am not even sure that the bail outs ever did have any intention of solving the problem at all.

    It would have been better to take a quarter of that bail out cash and give it straight to the consumer. Though at first sight questionable, it would have reflated the economy a hundred times more efficiently than handing a crutch to the bankers who have used that cash to get themselves out of jail and continue their appalling greed.

  108. http://occupycorporatism.com/swiss-study-shows-147-technocratic-super-entities-rule-the-world/

    Radio 5 was on about the cost of food this morning; One example was a shopper complaining he cann`t afford the £14 lamb joint.

    Well buy a tin of sardines like the best of us…

  109. In local supermarkets joints (of meat!) have security tags.

  110. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqBOMBSDQsI

    Bill Hicks. RIP

    For the Sanctimonious out there!

  111. And it’s not just bankers that need dealing with. What about British Gas. Their profits this year were only up by 23% on last year. So they are raising Gas and Electricity bills by 8% per household. Re-nationalise and take the profits from those who have just taken advantage of its monopolies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19912951

  112. The gangsters and an equal number of gangsteresses in charge John.
    http://www.centrica.com/index.asp?pageid=794

    British Gas is also colluding with Israel in stealing the Palestinians’ gas off the Gaza coast.

  113. CENTRICA PLS

    http://www.worksmart.org.uk/company/company.php?id=03033654

    Salaries
    Number of staff: 34,125
    Total spent on wages: £1,223,000,000
    Average staff pay: £35,838.83 *

    ——————————————————————————–

    Number of directors: 38
    Directors’ remuneration: £7,184,000.00
    Increase over last 7 years: 82.57%
    Highest paid director’s salary: £2,011,000.00 **
    Increase over last 7 years: 83.15%

  114. Clark

    Off Topic Techie talk – Normal humans please ignore.

    There is a problem with the security certificate for Craigs server. The host name of the server is set incorrectly.

    Visit the secure site https://www.craigmurray.org.uk and you will see what I mean.

  115. Craig is of course highlighting the absurdity of the Tory postion rather than truly advocating that bankers be shot. I think. Though of course we can but speculate as to what exactly we have to do to get rid of these odious, life-wrecking parasites. By which I mean bankers of course. It’s a tough question. Basically, the vast majority of the banking establishment are what we used to rather quaintly called ‘crooks’. Glen Greenwald posits the idea that essentially, the wealthy elites in the US are immune from prosecution. I think he’s spot on, and like much else this bizarre phenomenon is moving toward the UK. Not one banker has gone to jail. The endemic corruption, fraud, outright theft, and bullshit has resulted in zero jailtime for everybody involved. Shooting them may be harsh, but if we won’t\can’t even fire them, I’m at a loss. I certainly wouldn’t vote for them, which is what you are doing when you vote for any of the 3 parties in a UK election …
    So, what is to be done, as some bloke once asked. I’ve no idea. I begin to wonder if we should all start discussing civil cases with lawyers. I personally banked with RBS for over 10 years, and I imagine they screwed me over in some manner or other, probably charges: perhaps I could sue? Faint hope on that score. I guess we just have to wait for the next crash (within 5 years has always been my guess), then riot. And not stop.

  116. This post is yet more evidence that you are a dangerous man who could as easily be on the far right as the far left Craig ;-)

  117. p.s liked it a lot

  118. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 10:34 pm

    ” I certainly wouldn’t vote for them, which is what you are doing when you vote for any of the 3 parties in a UK election …”

    Greenwald gets a lot of flack because he pushes 3rd party challenges. We remember the last time we voted for Nader (2000) and the result was clearly disastrous for all except the 1% ( including the military-industrial complex). The differences between Democrat and Republican seem trifling until you assess the damage in retrospect.

  119. That’s because you’ve got terrible electoral systems Ben, that mean any vote against one of the main parties is effectively a vote for the other, especially in Presidential elections (not that first-past-the-post is much different there, but the electoral college is like first-past-the-post cubed)

    That and that allowing private donations to political parties and election campaigns ensures the super-rich, big banks and big firms dominate policy making – plus the ridiculous practice the whole world has of making half (often less than half) the voters the winners and half the country the losers after each election, as if it could be democratic to give all power for four or five years to a minority or a small majority.

    It’d be a lot better if we had an executive which was a committee of 10 or 20 or so people who were the government ministers each with equal power, while the rest of parliament or congress acted to hold them to account and provide an opposition both collectively and through select committees elected by all members of parliament or congress the way the UK parliament’s select committees are.

    (i’m dreaming with all of that i know, but that’s what i think you’d need to have something approximating to real democracy)

  120. forgot to say the governing committee / cabinet / admin would have seats allotted to each party and to independents according to the percentage of the seats they got in parliament / congress – which, if elections were by proportional representation, would be the same percentage of the vote they got in the election.

  121. @Derek – thanks, we know. No (costly) certs here, hence we use the pretend one that comes with the server! It does offer a bit of protection when using untrusted public wifi, if a security exception is set.

  122. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 11:00 pm

    I agree with most of what you say, Duncan, but when you get to Gov’t by committee, you lose me.

    Such Ombudsmen would have to sign a pledge of absolute transparency with the death penalty attached for me to even consider.

  123. I hate to be all Maoist, but sending them to work in the paddies, or ‘tattie-howking’, would be my preferred method of punishment. If they refuse, of course, or get uppity, THEN shoot them.

    Fair, or not?

  124. The reason i prefer government by committee is that if you have one single person who has executive power that means a minority or at best a small majority of the electorate will have voted for that person.

    If you have PR for elections and then make each government minister have one vote on an executive committee, the vast majority of voters will be equally represented on the executive.

    Also because too much power in one person’s hands is dangerous. It’s too much responsibility and stress for a single person to have all executive power and no single person can look at every issue from a wide enough range of viewpoints to make the best decision.

  125. Sounds fair to me Donald – community service to pay back for their crimes. I’d say they should be paid the minimum wage for any tattie howkin if it wasn’t for the fact that most of them have been paying themselves a thousand times it before and since the crisis.

  126. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 11:29 pm

    I can relate to your idea, in principle. But, I’ve found too many cooks spoil the broth. The UN is an example.

    I can’t imagine getting single-payer healthcare in the US, much less amendments to the Constitution in this acrid political environment.

    I am hopeful Publicly Funded Elections will change the landscape. This environment, is a tough one for that, as well. Obama could have opted for it but chose not to because McCain didn’t and you can’t have that unilaterally. Both sides must agree. But getting the money motive out of the game is essential.

  127. Shoot a banker? Yeah! … Oh, actually, no – because shooting people is bad (or blowing them up with hi-tech droney things, nuclear missiles etc) … couldn’t we just burgle bankers and get the money back? … oh no, that’s quite difficult and dangerous, given the new laws about your right to shoot burglars in the back. I know, how about if every time anyone from the BBC to your local carnival committee asks you to nominate a popular character, local hero or anything like that for anything from a community award to a national medal, nominate a bank-robber. We could start a mass movement.

  128. “Fair, or not?”
    I was chewing up my keyboard trying to sum up the same idea -

    All people in financial business earning more than twice the average wage. Seize their assets. Have them do community service for years in order to earn some back. If as they say -they were earning that money because they are high performers, they should be able to help out very well with other, less glamourous problems then! But high performers or not, their business sector crashed so badly it threatened to take out everyone elses livelyhoods and they blackmailed for several years huge chunks of health and services budgets. If there are massive debts to pay into the future, they should be the very first to pay back, they should have started a couple of years ago when thier whole perversely greedy professional sector broke.

    Money lending to businesses and people could be operated very efficiently by a newly recreated 21st century NPO.

    But its dont fix this loophole -fix that one.
    Here is one perfectly reasonable model for progress, but here is another totally different but equally reasonable one. Cant decide. Fuck em in the ear, Shoot em. They’re bandits.

  129. Moniker, you are on to something!
    Wait though it might be dangerous… you go first.

  130. More Gandhian would be for the rest of us to dress up as bankers and to conduct ourselves in the community and in the economy and in all our affairs as if we were bankers.

    If enough of us did it, civilisation would collapse in a week. On its ruins a new, more civil society would arise.

  131. On the Jimmy Savile story

    12 Oct, 2012 - 12:27 am

    The key question to ask about Jimmy Savile is this: why the 8 houses? And that’s on top of his own special accommodation at an NHS hospital and at Broadmoor.

    They weren’t posh flats or houses. He had so many. WHY?

    As for other UK celebrity paedophiles, it’s about time for this scandal to break properly, which puts the British elite easily on the level of Belgium. They’re not all guilty of paedophile crime, but practically all of those who aren’t, have kept quiet about it. Try the following list.

    ENTERTAINMENT
    Jim Davidson,
    Mick Jagger,
    Keith Richards,
    Bill Wyman,
    David Frost,
    John Motson,
    John Lennon,
    David Bowie,
    David Jason,
    Jeremy Clarkson,
    Ronnie Barker,
    Freddie Starr,
    Dave Lee Travis,
    John Peel,
    Gary Glitter,
    Jonathan King,
    Valerie Singleton,
    Cliff Richard,
    Noel Edmonds,
    Tony Blackburn,
    Jeremy Beadle,

    POLITICIANS AND ROYALTY
    Alan Clark,
    Prince Philip,
    Prince Charles,
    Prince Andrew,
    Edward Heath,
    Jeremy Thorpe,
    Leon Brittan,
    Cyril Smith,
    Lord Scarman,
    Greville Janner,
    George Thomas,
    Lord Macalpine

    not forgetting from the distant past:

    Lord Reith,
    John Maynard Keynes,

    A long long list could be made of Hollywood paedophiles too.

  132. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    12 Oct, 2012 - 12:42 am

    “A long long list could be made of Hollywood paedophiles too.”

    The absence of which, many are appreciative.

  133. Leonard Young: Some excellent posts, thank you. Particularly your portrayal of Howard Davies – worthy of a Private Eye article. In your “11 Oct,20112 – 11:50 am” post you bemoan MSM’s failure to invite real people (who actually work for a living) on to discuss the economy. That’s probably because most people would admit to not having much of a clue, apart from some right-wing bugaboo that they believe to be sapping their efforts – scroungers, single-parent mothers, immigrants, lazy students, take your pick. Now it’s those well-heeled public sector workers with their god-awful cheek to actually expect a pension after 40 years of service.

    In your post at 12:19pm, don’t forget the emphasis should be on multiple home owners – the landlord class – who truly benefit from rampant house price inflation, for a number of reasons. Not least of which is the cost of rent, put way up because the cost of a mortgage is increased. (Particularly in hard time like these, where banks are reluctant to loan out taxpayer-granted cash, without a whacking deposit.)

    Buy-to-rent, and you deduct 100% of the interest on the mortgage as a business expense. Buy your own home, and you see no mortgage tax relief – MIDAS went out years ago. Rent, and every penny is non-deductible. This grossly favours the investor class when it comes to property. The single buy-to-live-in home owner used to get a half-way favour, not any more. The favoritism towards the investor class become even more stark.

    *
    Your note to “old” Abe Renne’s homespun BS didn’t mention how crucial it was to act decisively and quickly, to show that the government would not allow Northern Rock to go bust. Had that been allowed, we would have seen a run on one bank after another, as investors (not to mention ordinary account holders) hurried to withdraw everything they could. There is not enough liquidity in the system to even start to return to people a small fraction of the “money” they think they’ve got, let alone the investors, still less the speculators, and forget about the derivatives.

    If even a week went by before all the banks were bust, the pound would have swiftly followed. Our money would have become worthless, and we would nationally be in 1000 years of debt.

    It takes a particularly dotty view to consider the NR bailout was a sop to Labour supporters, and “old” Abe never fails to produce.

    Nevertheless, thank you again for some excellent posts.

  134. Bravo my friend!

  135. Katz – that’s brilliant. Now let’s see, how would it go? From now on, my little freelancing business will charge its clients for all the money it gives, all the money it takes, all the money that stays where it is, and any money that might be missing when I wish I owned it. I will continue to send clients bills long after whatever services have been supplied on the grounds that if they don’t keep paying, my little business might not be rich any more which would be *a very bad thing*. Oh yes, and the occasional stonking great bill when my little business happens to have less than several billion pounds at its fingertips because that also is *a bad thing*. – Oh and, no-one is allowed to charge me for anything, not even my mistakes, because that would be another *bad thing*, unless of course I earn millions from my mistakes, in which case those who accidentally gave me all that money can have £23.50 in compensation.

  136. When a family member dies and you inherit their money, you have to pay the inheritance tax before you get the letters of administration or probate. There’s actually a scheme whereby you can use the deceased person’s money to do this, but most solicitors won’t tell you about this, and nor will banks. Guess what the banks try to do? They try to LEND you your own money, so that you can pay it to the taxman!

    In all sorts of local crookery, including famously landlordism of most descriptions, solicitors are in it up to their necks with local bank figures.

    The misselling the bastards get away with is routine and ubiquitous! 7% interest, guaranteed! Foreign currency, no commission (but what’s a spread if it isn’t a commission?)! Why isn’t this illegal? And any time you phone them about anything, they try to urge you to get (deeper) into debt. Yes, shoot the bastards.

  137. There is a total here of over 100 uses of the words ‘bank’ and ‘banker’. Sorry to say that the said ‘bankers’ reading this will be having a laugh as they know that nothing will be done to bring them to heel or to book.

  138. “You need to watch yourself making remarks like that these days – it might land you in jail, or with hundreds of hours of community service plus fine. And I might be right there too, for agreeing with you.”

    Don’t be so silly. Do you really think that, if so I pity you for living in constant fear of speaking out.

    Funny how, as soon as you mention dishing out to the criminal classes what they have been dishing out to the rest of humanity decade after decade, all these ‘pacifists’ and ‘lawyers’ suddenly jump out the woodwork claiming the moral high ground.

  139. Interesting that one of the things Blair did in his first year as PM was to ratify EU law and remove the death penalty for treason and arson in a naval dockyard.

  140. How many ‘civilised’ British people, including many politicians, cheered on the brutal torture and murder of Gaddaffi? Not only that but we were all debased as a society by having to witness such a crime over and over again while the perpetrators appeared on TV smiling and grinning?

  141. wow, what a little list, now, lets go to war quickly, before anybody asks some serious questions about visits to childrens home’s and hospitals by those listed….

  142. @On The Jimmy Savile Story

    Thanks for this list, many of the names on which are already widely known. The comparison with Belgium is interesting. Most of those people are still living. Why aren’t they in prison?

    In Belgium, the political class and the police proved completely incapabale of investigating paedophile murders and child sex slavery. Why? Because it went way too far up the social hierarchy for anyone to do anything about it. So the regime’s propagandists wheeled out the king to go on demonstrations!

    That’s unlikely in the UK. Prince Andrew association with paedophile billionaire Jeffrey Epstein and his underage girls is well known. So is Prince Charles’s warm support for his ‘toothpaste-squeezer’ Michael Fawcett, when he found out he’d raped his servant George Smith.

    I suppose there are probably figures in the Church of England the British image managers could wheel out, but they’d have to be careful. Many senior judges are involved in paedophilia, in all 4 constituent parts of the UK, but I guess they could find a female one who could be sold as unbesmirched.

    As for Esther Rantzen, well, given her association with the BBC and the same synagogue organisations in Leeds and Manchester to which Savile was supplying young children for abuse, and her idiotic statements about Savile (which Katy Brand discusses here)…well I suppose they could try it, but it might backfire. Only a very naive person would bank on ChildLine retaining the respect it used to hold.

    Katy Brand:

    Rantzen has admitted that she heard the rumours at the time, referring to it as ‘green room gossip’, the implication being that it was classier to ignore it. If I have learnt anything from my time working in TV, it is that ‘green room gossip’ is almost always true. The very best source of information on a show is the make-up artists, who see people at their very worst, and make them look their very best. They see everything and hear everything, and many a rumour has started in the make up chair and not stopped until it has reached you sitting at your kitchen table, eating a boiled egg and reading all about it in the paper.

    If you are a seasoned TV presenter, you know that green room chat is the most reliable source of information in the whole world, and so I cannot entirely sit back and say ‘oh well, Esther, how could you possibly have known for sure?’ But still, it’s Esther Rantzen, and one should have a little respect.

    It wasn’t until I watched a Sky news interview with ‘Dame That’s Life’ that I started getting really angry with her. Looking uncomfortable, she was clearly choosing her words carefully as the reporter asked her the obvious questions: ‘What did you know? When did you know it? Couldn’t you have said something? You started ChildLine for goodness sake, why didn’t you do something?’ (I am paraphrasing a little here, but only a little).

    Esther’s replies left my jaw on the floor. She started by saying that until now it had ‘only been one single child’s word against the word of a television icon’, implying that this meant it was impossible to verify. She went on to say that now it was ‘five adult women’ who had come forward it was easier, and here was the part that started to make my blood boil, that they were ‘cool, credible, sensible women’, who through their lack of emotion were ‘convincing’ to Esther, and so she had started to believe there was some truth to it all. Really? Really, Esther? So, for you to believe allegations of child abuse, it can’t only be ‘one single child’ saying it? And the victims have to be ‘cool, credible and sensible’ in order to be ‘convincing’? And there has to be more than one, and they must never have met one another? Really? Isn’t that kind of attitude exactly what you have been campaigning against all your professional life?

    The reporter then asked her why she hadn’t raised the rumours with anyone at the BBC. Esther’s response was that it ‘wasn’t relevant to anything I was working on at the time’. What, like ChildLine? She then said she was ‘only a guest’ on Savile’s show, effectively suggesting that child abuse was somebody else’s department. Exactly whose department we’ll never know, as the department of the person who was setting up ChildLine seemed to consider it ‘irrelevant’.

    Watching Savile’s ex-colleagues squirm around in the aftermath of all this is deeply unpleasant, and it just shows how difficult it can be to stand up to someone so powerful. People, including Esther, keep referring to the fact that Savile had even been blessed by the Pope, and if the Pope can’t tell someone’s a paedophile, then how could they possibly be expected to know? The irony of this defence is almost more than I can stand – yeah, let’s put all the paedos in front of the Pope and let him decide how bad they are – GREAT IDEA. They say it takes a village to raise a child; perhaps it also takes a media village to abuse one. As Esther said, ‘we all contributed’. Damn right.

  143. Re: @Komodo, re the Beeb article:

    Thanks, Jon, for replying. Hobsbawm is alleged (see thousands of c&p artists on Google – I can’t verify this quickly) to have described himself as an “unrepentant Communist”, and would certainly not have objected to that description. Certainly the article makes the statutory nods to the “Marxism is the embodiment of all evil” meme, but it would probably have been spiked if it had not. And Marxism, as a political epithet, conflatable with Stalinism, can well be left to rest in peace. Its meaning and associations have been changed enormously since Marx and Engels considered the idea of a just economy. It’s a toxic brand, like it or not.

    As an economic theory, after major refurbishment and a lick of paint, it might still fly….

  144. Thanks for the compliment Moniker. But with all due respect, you are thinking small.

    More effective would be to convince all your friends and loved ones to make a bad bet after convincing the betting shop to give you a share of the winnings. Then you bet on the opposite outcome.

    If the worst happens and your loved ones win, then you decline to pay up, appeal to the government that your financial reverses would bring down the system, convincing the government to bail you out.

    Then you take your loved ones to court demanding a share of their winnings.

    It worked a treat for Goldman Sax.

  145. O/T. A little serious light entertainment if you’ve got two minutes to spare. The latest in a series of cartoons about how Julian Assange was set up. Please distribute.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8wrmtDkoLU

  146. There is a total here of over 100 uses of the words ‘bank’ and ‘banker’. Sorry to say that the said ‘bankers’ reading this will be having a laugh as they know that nothing will be done to bring them to heel or to book. (Mary)

    A complacent enemy is easier to defeat.

  147. The cause of the housing and other bubbles is government-corporate interference and legislation, adding more rules is not the answer. keeping the incompetent fingers of government plc and the political class out of business is the right direction, since when has any government, economist or politico successfully run an economy the ddr perhaps? deregulation is a twisted phrase and is not the same as a free market or `price discovery` that is you pay what a good is worth to you. the banks should have been allowed to collapse and that would have brought the price of housing down amongst other things. by the same token the broad reach of the welfare/warfare state should be allowed to collapse too. an economy is an entity too complex to be understood with dogmas like Keynesianism, monetarism whatever, its more like the eco system with unexpected consequences to actions, something that is forever still being understood. the bankers don`t want their status quo changed any more than the man/woman on the street, but truth be told both are living an inflated undeserved quality of life. this country is pretty shambolic, productivity was always poor, investment in people and plant was always reluctant and piece meal, contrary to all this `investors in people` iso 9001 bull.
    The change this country and a lot of the world needs to face up to is not a new haircut or change of clothes it is a reevaluation of all values, if you really think you are capable of being judge, jury and executioner, then if you are part of the problem in however small a way will you put a bullet in your own head, like now or hold your peace. could i kill myself? well ive thought about it on occasion but im either a coward or i hoped that one day i could redeem myself. by the same token token could i kill another? in certain circumstances yes but not over money.
    And as a final remark i invoke godwins law, the majority of people in germany were responsible/culpable for the rise of fascism either passively or actively, the same rule of thumb applies in the west for the reign of the financiers, were you just following orders or were you unable to do anything about it so went along with the flow.

  148. LeonardYoung

    12 Oct, 2012 - 9:26 am

    @Glenn “Leonard Young: Some excellent posts”

    Thank you Glenn

    “There is not enough liquidity in the system to even start to return to people a small fraction of the “money” they think they’ve got, let alone the investors.”

    Fair point. To address this banks should and could be restricted in loan to deposit ratios which at one time were reasonable but before the meltdown got to ludicrous proportions.

    I do think that the crucial mistake was in injecting QE back into the banks instead of at least some of that cash being injected directly into infrastructure investment. The problem of course being that almost all infrastructure projects are now either entirely privatised or, even worse, subject to PFI agreements. In the past road, rail and building projects were managed centrally. Thatcher and co were rabidly against this and as a matter of policy farmed out almost all infrastructure to private corps (classic example being channel tunnel).

    Even die hard tories are now lamenting the privatisation of the railways and it is amusing to see the very people who insisted the railways would be more efficient now whinging about escalating fares and inefficiencies.

    I take your point too about the buy to rent sector. Add to that single home owners who flipped properties one after the other in the boom times and got away with huge profits, as you say untaxed even though their buying and selling had nothing to do with just moving home. The strategy all along was to buy cheap, sell dear and pocket the rest. All that wealth was distributed to them by the naive first time buyers who were conned into buying at any price. If they would have just REFUSED to play the game, and ignore the property-porn media hype, no meltdown would have occured.

    Yet still FTBs are being duped into buying absurdly expensive rubbish box homes because the hype still persists even in the face of reality.

  149. So…
    don’t borrow money
    don’t buy stuff
    and especially don’t borrow money to buy stuff.

  150. Oh yes. Atos….
    http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/pressroom/atos-healthcare/pressrelease/view/atos-healthcare-appoints-local-scottish-healthcare-provider-nhs-lanarkshire-801948

    So this is how it’s done. You pay an external contractor £££ to tell the terminally ill they are now magically fit for work. And then they subcontract this to the NHS. Loadsamoney. Magic.

  151. LeonardYoung

    12 Oct, 2012 - 9:44 am

    @Gary Smith “the banks should have been allowed to collapse and that would have brought the price of housing down amongst other things.”

    Possibly but the key thing here is interest rates. If interest rates are high they dampen down exuberence to buy property, resulting in lower prices. With interest rates at an absurd half of a percent, the necessary adjustment down of property pricing is now artificially being propped up. Houses which are still going for £230,000 should be going for £150,000 and that would bring disposable income to price ratios back to the level historically viable.

    An economy cannot grow when so much disposable income is being spent on basic housing. Lowering property prices would free up cash to invest in PROPER infrastructure and useful things that people need and want. Tying up close to half your income into housing is a dead end. Investing in house price inflation doesn’t create wealth. It creates the illusion of wealth for a minority who literally conned it out of naive buyers lower down the ladder.

  152. @ Leonard Young :
    Agree with just about everything else you’ve said here, (which makes you unique). What better proof is there that HMG and the opposition are set on re-inflating the housing bubble than the apparently permanent 0.5% base rate?

    A tiny gleam of light in the darkness, though:
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/10/12/uk-britain-fsa-turner-idUKLNE89B00520121012

    Maybe the realisation that it won’t work is finally beginning to sink in.

  153. Phil 8:04pm
    Yes
    Guardian (30/07/12):
    “The Serious Fraud Office has moved a step closer to bringing criminal charges against individuals involved in rigging the key Libor interest rate after concluding that the law does cover the offences that led to Barclays being hit by a £290m fine.
    The SFO, which had announced a formal investigation into attempts to manipulate the rate on 6 July, said its investigation covered a number of financial institutions.”

    But I am sure nothing will come of it.

  154. A comment about Cameron’s absurd statement “I’m not here to defend privilege, I’m here to spread it.”

    This is a variation on the crass statements made by many millionaires and billionaires: “you can be a millionaire just like me”, or “we can create a nation of millionaires”.

    The inane shallowness of these statements ignores something so obvious: In order for one person to be extremely rich or extremely “privileged”, there have to be hundreds, possibly thousands of others who are NOT rich or privileged, since almost all exceptionally rich people are so because they need the labour and compliance, willingly or not, of others whose income is a small fraction of the wealthy.

    While it is true that a decent, efficient economy that grows in a sustainable way does generate higher disposable income for the masses, the exceptionally rich can only be so from their exploitation of those who are not rich.

    This blindingly obvious fact is further demonstrated by the circumstances of the vast majority of the super rich. Very few of them started some enterprise from scratch. Nearly all of them had already inherited wealth from their parents and built on that wealth.

    That of course includes Cameron himself, his wife, and at least a third of the cabinets of particularly Tory governments of the past. Where those with political power have not had prior wealth and have started up businesses, there is contemporary evidence to demonstrate that such enterprises have been run to the detriment of employees (see Jeremy Hunt) or are simply dodgy schemes to extract cash from the stupid and gullible (see Grant Shapps).

    Going back further in Tory history, even Heseltine who made a fortune from publishing did so by raising cash from a housing boom. Many others made a fortune (see Blair) from the legacy of failure in political office.

    The notion that we can build a nation of universal privilege is utterly ridiculous.

  155. BBC: “The European Union has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize…” !!!

  156. Hello Leonard

    So what if the banks went back to the old standard of lending a person 3x annual income plus large deposit, that was the viable model for many years, with good reason, based on experience and proper banking prudence, that would pull prices down, the banks and government plc changed this in their own fee seeking interest, no economic reasoning to it other than in a smoke and mirrors sense.
    So what is the average property worth, `price discovery`, well due to lack of space and time lets say a house is worth £85,000 for the cost of materials and labour that went in to it and the land it sits on. say I’m in London, its worth an extra £3500 a year in commuting savings from somewhere with a few trees and some fresh air, that’s another £70k on top over a 20 year period, and another margin on top lets say £10k because its London and there’s always something going on in a social sense, total in fiat pounds sterling £165,000. People have more disposable income than they actually deserve due to the feedback loop of easy fake money, and credit. a real economy is based on savings which are then constructively invested. (ot current increase in gas price is mostly due to inflation/hollowing of worth of pound and commodity speculation, not direct tangible increased costs of extraction and distribution)

  157. Ref the Goldman Sachs connection. Intelligence Squared run debates which you have to pay £25 to attend. The founder of the Asia division Yana Peel is ex Goldman Sachs and the first speaker in this recent debate was a Jennifer Moses (sic) who is an ex MD of Goldman Sachs, is into the academies rip off and who was a personal advisor to Gordon Brown. See how it wop

    {http://www.intelligencesquared.com/who-we-are/}

    These people’s professional relationships are incestuous and they are expert at conveying the messages. You will see the audience’s acceptance in the Q&A later in this video at a very recent presentation called London Should Love Its Bankers !!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjPo7A65Ck&feature=player_embedded

    I have to admit I only listened to the first half hour.

  158. O/T

    “These arrests demonstrate the Department and the Armed Forces’ determination to ensure UK personnel act in accordance with their rules of engagement and our standards.”Bold

    Like being part of the bombing (13,000 ‘missions’ ie ordnance dropped) of Libyan humans and killing up to 50,000 without any lawful basis. A few thuggish scapegoats are being tied to the stake as propaganda for the illusion of humanity and law. I loathe the public school killers (as Pilger calls them) who unleash those who have been brought up to be harsh.

    Royal Marines arrested in murder inquiry
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19918398

    Hope none are married to members of the Military Wives choir btw. Would not look good for the war propaganda.

  159. O/T whilst the world is smitten with Aung Sun Su chi, the Burmese military is undermining and harassing the people in Kachin State for their gold and hydro power.
    This report from Jason Motlagh is harrowing, a feeding corrupt military that has made peace with most other indigenous tribes and now can concentrate on extracting the wealth for their personal gains.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2012/10/20121031172469210.html

  160. Ref the Goldman Sachs connection. Intelligence Squared run debates which you pay £25 to attend. The founder of the Asia division Yana Peel is ex Goldman Sachs and the first speaker in this recent debate was a Jennifer Moses (sic) who is an ex MD of Goldman Sachs, is into the academies rip off and who was a personal advisor to Gordon Brown. See how it all works.

    {http://www.intelligencesquared.com/who-we-are/}

    These people’s professional relationships are incestuous and they are expert at conveying the messages. You will see the audience’s acceptance in the Q&A later in this video at a very recent presentation called London Should Love Its Bankers !!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjPo7A65Ck&feature=player_embedded

    I have to admit I only listened to the first half hour and skimmed the rest.

  161. John Pilger writes – Australia has abandoned Assange.

    Oct 8th speaking in Bali.

    http://www.thestarfish.com.au/john-pilger-australia-has-abandoned-assange/

  162. I vote for shooting Savile. Oh = but he’s dead already. Why the concrete entombment I wonder?

    More about a child in a care home which demonstrates how afraid of him people in authority were and why he was never dealt with.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19915975#

    It was not only girls. I have read about a boy in Leeds being abused and what about the boy that Savile took to Israel on one of his trips there?

    I heard that the weedy new BBC DG Entwistle has appointed someone from BBC Scotland to investigate the shelving of the Newsnight episode, described as ‘qualms’ in the Scotland page headline.
    ‘BBC to answer staff Savile qualms’

    No irony. Keep it in the family. Shame on all of them.

    Sir Jimmy Savile inquiry: BBC responds to staff concerns
    Newsnight was due to broadcast an investigation into Sir Jimmy Savile in December 2011

    Jimmy Savile abuse claims
    Could Savile lose knighthood?
    Profile: Sir Jimmy Savile
    Mark Easton: Workplace culture
    Probe into Savile hospital claims

    BBC director general George Entwistle has asked a senior colleague to answer Newsnight journalists’ questions on the dropping of the programme’s planned investigation into Sir Jimmy Savile.

    BBC Scotland director Ken MacQuarrie has been asked to talk to staff about the shelved broadcast last December.

    The discussion will be fed back to the BBC Trust chairman, Lord Patten.

    The corporation has always said the decision to drop the film was taken for “editorial reasons”.

    /…
    {http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19918192}

  163. “BBC: “The European Union has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize…” !!!”

    The $1.2 million (€925,659) will do wonders for the EU’s financial problems. Not to mention that European countries are probably less united now than they have been for decades … Hah!

    “The European Union has won the Nobel Peace Prize for its long-term role in uniting the continent, the Norwegian Nobel Committee announced today.”

    Don’t tell me the Nobel prizes are not politically motivated. The object of the EU exercise is full European unity. This little ‘bauble’ is to give it a leg-up in its hour of need.

    “Human Rights and democracy?” They must be joking …

  164. KingofWelshNoir

    12 Oct, 2012 - 12:18 pm

    Wow cool is that! They’ve given the Nobel Peace Prize to the Illuminati :)

  165. How can any ‘prize’ be given to a grouping of countries, let alone to the fascist bankrupt crowd running the show?

    A Medialens thread on the subject – http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1350035377.html

  166. Tim Marshall on Sky News said that the Nobel Peace prize is “losing its tarnish” – the standard of coherent English there is getting worse and worse.

    The euro is going to stagger on until about 2014. And then collapse – spectacularly. If they think they’re going to get policial unity before that they’re off their trolleys. And if they don’t (which they won’t) the euro hasn’t a hope.

    @KingofWelshNoir :)

  167. Duncan McFarlane 11 Oct 10:49pm

    “…select committees elected by all members of parliament or congress the way the UK parliament’s select committees are.”

    Sorry Duncan. UK Select Committee members are picked by the party whips not elected.

  168. Inquiry here. Inquiry there. The UK is the Inquiry Capital of the world. Yet there is never any action taken, any truth revealed or any justice given.

    Hillsborough probe ‘to be UK’s biggest into police conduct’
    Deborah Glass said the IPCC would investigate claims police statements were altered

    Hillsborough papers
    Chief apologises over statement
    Thatcher row over police cover-up
    Key excerpts
    Key findings

    The biggest ever independent investigation into police wrongdoing is to be carried out following damning reports into the Hillsborough disaster.

    The IPCC police watchdog and director of public prosecutions have announced they will both launch inquiries into possible crimes committed by police.
    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19922092#

  169. “The latest in a series of cartoons about how Julian Assange was set up.”

    Betrayed by his handlers would be more accurate (as so often happens). And what happened to the $150,000 Bradley Manning legal fund that he was so keen to promote in the early days? Certainly not with Bradley Manning’s legal team who have received just $20,000 of it to date.

  170. “keeping the incompetent fingers of government plc and the political class out of business is the right direction”

    You have the cart before the horse. The UK has a totalitarian fascist government, run by business for business, who’s sole aim is to appropriate as much public wealth into the private sector as possible. “Incompetence” of public officials is just an excuse they roll out whenever they are caught.

  171. Nobel Peace Prize!

    You Britons — Europeans all — must be chuffed.

    Colour me impressed. Take the rest of the day off.

  172. Why is the BBC saying they’ll have their enquiry into Jimmy Savile’s abuses after the police enquiry is over? Why not in parallel?

    And, not a criticism of ‘On the Jimmy Savile story’ at 12 Oct, 2012 – 12:27 am, but a question:

    Is making lists of potential “suspects” like that not defamatory and running the risk of a libel action? Just asking …
    I think blogs are legally held responsible for comments?

  173. “Colour me impressed. Take the rest of the day off.”

    I will. I stayed up to watch Biden last night, wondering if he’d put his foot in it. It was a hoot. Bill Maher’s tweet made me laugh out loud: “Hello 9 1 1? There’s an old man beating a child on my tv”.

  174. Oops, “You Britons”
    Doesn’t include me then.

    Gone.

  175. They should have given the Peace Prize to Al Qaeda for their work in supporting NATO in Syria and Libya (but not for 911 or suicide attacks against NATO forces and civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan and elsewhere because that was wrong.)

  176. Sorry Celtic fringe dwellers.

    You’re special too.

    In fact, to all 500m Europeans, you’re all special.

    And Zimbabweans — Euro users. At least some of that democratic patina has to rub off. Good luck with that.

  177. ‘Is making lists of potential “suspects” like that not defamatory and running the risk of a libel action?’

    What about the FBIs list of 2,000 names of publicly known British paedophiles that was handed over to the British government? It included serving MPs, judges, police officers, actors, and singers. I doubt whether the fact only half a dozen prosecutions were carried out (much to the dismay of the FBI) had anything to do with ‘defamation’ and more to do with corruption at the very highest levels.

    Jimmy saViles name is now being openly linked with the Channel Islands Peado ring that has led to the murder of many children. It does not get any more serious than this.

  178. KingofWelshNoir

    12 Oct, 2012 - 1:18 pm

    Yeah, there are an awful lot of inquiries going on these days, aren’t there? I often find it a bit incestuous when the BBC do a programme about themselves, but yesterday was surreal. Newsnight did an item on the recent failings of…er…Newsnight.

  179. “Jimmy saViles name is now being openly linked with the Channel Islands Peado ring that has led to the murder of many children. It does not get any more serious than this.”

    Yes, I’m aware of that. But is there any evidence that any of the list of people (above) are linked to that? I’m only concerned about the legal situation regarding this blog. Not concerned about the fate of those involved in the scandal of Haut de la Garenne!

    “Celtic fringe dwellers”? I like it.

    (Anyway, I should try and grab some more sleep.)

  180. Brian Spencer

    12 Oct, 2012 - 1:30 pm

    OT but interesting I thought … how to spot a sociopath http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html

    Tony Blair seems to tick a lot of the boxes.

  181. doug scorgie

    12 Oct, 2012 - 1:33 pm

    Nuid.

    “Why is the BBC saying they’ll have their enquiry into Jimmy Savile’s abuses after the police enquiry is over? Why not in parallel?”

    The BBC is waiting for the outcome of the police investigation so that their own investigation can concentrate only on those aspects that the police have identified. That is; they will be able to continue the cover-up of any aspects that the police didn’t uncover.

  182. “Is making lists of potential “suspects” like that not defamatory and running the risk of a libel action? Just asking …”

    I had the same thought. There are precedents.

    http://www.out-law.com/page-4892

    Mods? Quick!

  183. Arriva the bus company, an offshoot of Deutsche Bahn, take over the transport of non urgent patients to Manchester hospitals.

    http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1590015_bus-group-arriva-to-take-non-urgent-patients-to-greater-manchester-hospitals-instead-of-ambulances

    My local general hospital outsourced the outpatient transport to G4S. It was a shambles.

    ~~~

    Dr Philip Lee MP whose constituency includes Broadmoor Hospital, was on Sky News just now. The hospital management gave a refurbished house in the grounds to Savile for his private use!! FFS. The MP was speaking in a room where a portrait of Hague with hair was on the wall in the background. Obviously Dr Lee is an admirer.

    Lee is a Conservative Friend of Israel and went to Israel in February 2011. He also clocks up a hundred quid or so an hour for his medical services. One of his employers is Medical Solutions Ltd a national outfit who provide medical triage by phone!

    {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Lee_(politician)}{http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/phillip_lee/bracknell#register}

  184. Dear malted milk

    What is this `public wealth` you speak of, do you mean the money government raises from taxation of private endeavour. try not to class all business as crony capitalist corporations, there are many self employed, small and medium sized businesses that do not benefit from contacts in the government. government produces no income stream it merely sucks it out of the pockets of the private sector. please name one example of public/govt. spending that is efficient. personally i think of businesses like this, small- vital, experimental, medium- maturing, experienced, plc`s-decrepit, beyond their prime. as for fascism, national socialism- socialist state ruled in nazi case from berlin, communism, group of previous nations ruled from moscow, or brussels take your pick, either way only a cigarette paper between them

  185. Nuid, what would have happened to Europe without the Club of Rome’s declaration? I’m sorry Britain had to go to war so many times, wagging the tail, whilst the EU kept out of it. Falklands and Iraq spring to mind.

    I know some conflicts in the Balkans will always flare up again, but Europe has kept the peace, despite some of its members not being able to help themselves.

    But now it is full at it in Afghanistan and in the run up to a possible war with Syria and Iran. Giving it to Obama and Kissinger should have told us a long time ago that its just fluff.

  186. Gary Smith:

    please name one example of public/govt. spending that is efficient.

    Easy. Social peace.

    At the end of the century before last, Joseph Chamberlain campaigned for social security expenditure funded by the rich to placate the poor. He was quite frank. He called this payment a “ransom”.

    Ever since that ransom has grown larger and the possessing classes hava found no more efficient way to buy social peace.

    It’s an expensive product but there is no substitute.

  187. “I’m not here to defend privilege, I’m here to spread it.” –

    He did!

    All over his mate’s “Top Tory of the Day” T-shirt after a binge on cut-price beer and a few lines of coke; much to the disgust of his buddy’s brother’s Muslim wife Rahala who was not impressed.

  188. [quote]Members of hacker collective Anonymous have stopped supporting Wikileaks after the site put up a paywall, saying that Wikileaks is more bothered about Julian Assange™ than getting information to the public.

    In a statement on Pastebin, linked through from Anonymous Twitter account AnonymousIRC, the group said Wikileaks had turned into the “one man Julian Assange show”.[/quote]

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/12/anonymous_drops_wikileaks/

  189. Uzbek in the UK

    12 Oct, 2012 - 3:22 pm

    Borrosso was awarded Nobel Peace prize this year. For meeting with bloody karimov, no doubt.

  190. hello katz

    LOL
    and to continue in the spirit of good humour you do realise that the nobel peace prize is given in irony!

  191. A great American man Mary – thank-you

  192. Shoot them all I say, shoot them repeatedly, Its self defence!

  193. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    12 Oct, 2012 - 4:59 pm

    I thank you as well, Mary. Although we Left-Coasters are on the fringe, there is a smattering of sentients throughout the continent.

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