In Praise of Palmerston

by craig on March 5, 2013 9:09 am in Uncategorized

It is impossible to read this without warming to Palmerston.

94 Picadilly
Oct 31, 1857

Rt Hon Sir B Hall
[Commissioner for Public Works, a cabinet post]

My Dear Hall,

I cannot agree with you as to the principle on which you think the grass in the park should be treated. You seem to think it is a thing to be looked at by people who are to be confined to the gravel walks. I regard it as a thing to be walked upon freely and without restraint by the people, old and young, for whose enjoyment the parks are maintained; and your iron hurdles would turn the parks into so many Smithfields, and entirely prevent that enjoyment. As to people making paths across the grass, what does that signify? If the parks were to be deemed hay-fields, it might be necessary to prevent people from stopping the growth of the hay by walking over the grass; but as the parks must be deemed places for public enjoyment, the purpose for which the parks are kept up is marred and defeated when the use of them is confined to a number of straight gravel walks.

When I see the grass worn by foot traffic, I look on it as a proof that the park has answered its purpose, and has done its duty by the health, amusement and enjoyment of the people.

In the college courts of Cambridge a man is fined half a crown who walks over the grass plots, but that is not a precedent to be followed

Yours sincerely

PALMERSTON

It is impossible to imagine a Prime Minister writing like that today, or any politician in power coming down on the non-authoritarian side of any argument.

Palmerston would have been absolutely furious at the government’s new secret courts, regarding them as fundamentally un-British. And he would have been quite right. I absolutely cannot believe the “Liberal Democrats” are doing this.

In judging the character of people, it is essential to take into account the environment in which they develop. There is no more convinced anti-monarchist than me, but I did not join in some unkind comments on this blog about the Queen’s recent illness, because I have spent some time with her and think she is a good woman. It is not her fault she was born as she was, and had I been I may well have behaved worse.

I appreciate Palmerston was not a socialist anti-colonialist. But it would have been very strange if he was.

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99 Comments

  1. I used to work for a municipal Parks Department. A new, young director had all the ‘Keep off the grass’ signs removed from public parks. The worn tracks where people walked he called ‘desire lines’ and made those the paths. As Machado says: no hay camino, se hace camino al andar

  2. Hopefully the House of Lords will make the implementation of secret cours more difficult, if nor impossible. For example by insisting that a panel of judges, not just one, examine such evidence.

  3. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 10:27 am

    Well said, Craig re. your comments about the Queen and the behavious of some commenters. You correctly and justly demonstrate that it is possible to be a fervent republican while refraining from posting comments which seem to mock the Queen for falling ill or which even seem to display an ill-concealed glee that she has. There was also that stupid and offensive comment about diarhoeia and soiled laundry (that may have been Mary, but she can correct me if I’ve mis-attributed).

    The Eminences who post in this ad hominem way really seem to be too stupîd to understand that their vindictiveness, pettiness and lack of all sense of proportion are some of the reasons why their political and social ideas have so little purchase with the wider public – people are simply put off.

  4. Not connected to anything here. But this is really important to me, please don’t delete the link.
    Vote for the children’s hospice. They do some really important work.

    https://www.directdebit.co.uk/TheBigBreak/100GoodCauses/Pages/CauseDetail.aspx?CauseId=198

  5. The parts of the field that have been worn down should be the graveled as paths. And the gravel paths that no one ever walks on should be grassed over.

    If they want to control where people walk what they should do is plant shrubs and flowers on the corners. No one walks through a bush. And they don’t confine people off the grass the way fences do.

  6. @There was also that stupid and offensive comment about diarhoeia and soiled laundry (that may have been Mary, but she can correct me if I’ve mis-attributed).

    No it wasn’t me and he/she knows damned well it wasn’t.

    PS Sp. diarrhoea. Well that’s the English spelling.

  7. Someone told me about a college campus in the US where the architects didn’t specify any paths across the lawns, but waited until the students had worn their own. Then they built the paths where the students had walked. I know it’s not quite the point Palmerston was making, but it does strike me as rather clever.

  8. ” It is not her fault she was born as she was,”

    ~maybe so but it IS her fault and her leech family members’ that she continues to take so much money for doing so little, in not speaking out against the idea of a monarchy, of thinking they’re better than everybody else, blah blah blah.

    It is not the Pope’s fault he was elected to where he was……etc.[/sarcasm]

  9. Habbabkuk continues to harass Mary; the comment referred to was by Doug Scorgie.

    Comments can be interpreted as (in Habbabkuk’s words) “stupid and offensive”, but doing so is at least partly, maybe mostly, in the mind of the one doing the interpretation.

    Interestingly, it is also nearly impossible to imagine Habbabkuk “coming down on the non-authoritarian side of any argument”, whose comments always seem to favour the powerful and attempt to discredit those promoting progressive or minority opinion. Habbabkuk also seems to seed the threads with comments designed to provoke conflict.

  10. Ideally great architecture would develope an understanding of why and where desire paths develope and be able to design in harmony with them rather than in complete ignorance or in complete surrender to them.

  11. Ed Miliband outs himself as yet another lowlife neocon. On the subject of Syria:

    “”If the message to dictators around the world is that the West will never intervene – and that’s the message that President Assad of Syria has got today – we’re going to live in a very, very dangerous world.”
    The international community was “on the back foot”, he said.
    “The issue William Hague is raising this week – should we give more small arms – that’s not really the issue because they’re flooded with small arms in Syria.
    “The issue is – is someone going to take on the Assad air force which is bombing his own cities?”"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9909336/George-Bush-was-the-worst-thing-to-ever-happen-to-Tony-Blair-says-David-Miliband.html

    He’s lost my vote.

  12. ‘B’nai B’rith came into existence under the personal direction of the Earl of Shaftesbury, Lord Palmerston, who was the Grand Patriarch of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, and their “Hofjuden” (Court Jew) accomplices, Sir Moses Montefiore and the family of the Rothschilds. In a July 1841 memorandum to Foreign Minister Palmerston, written in part as a motivation for the then recent founding of the “Colonization of Palestine Society,” Shaftesbury described the usefulness of the Jews for British strategic intentions.’

    Elaborated from “The Life and Work of the Seventh Earl of Shaftesbury KG” Ulan Press ISBN-13: 9781163466339

  13. Blegburnduddoo

    5 Mar, 2013 - 1:09 pm

    Apologies O/T
    Jack Straw announced yesterday that he would stand again as MP for Blackburn at the next election.
    The Lancashire News has invited readers to say whether they are in favour or not. Currently, 28% are and 72% are not

  14. Agreed ‘Johnf’ – succinct and intelligent analysis thank-you.

    A British contact in Syria consistently informs at some risk that Saudi terrorists are destroying Syria’s infrastructure with targeted bombing financed by Britain.

  15. We should have known, Palmerston was a zionist! :roll:

    PS.Palmerston was also an avowed abolitionist who wasn’t afraid to speak his mind and stand up to the US.

    Craig,

    Like yourself, I am also quite disturbed by the idea of CMP’s in the UK, but would you also agree the current system is not fit for purpose, when terror suspects can sue the intelligence and security agencies for millions and they effectively have no right of reply, as to do so may place agents or operations at risk.

    I think CMP’s should be available, but only if their use is decided by a Judge, and it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that their use is a last resort when national security outweighs the public interest of having open justice.

  16. OT, but for those with a interest in CND and Scottish independence;

    http://wingsland.podgamer.com/different-reasoning-same-conclusion/#more-30519

  17. Mark Golding

    Palmerston was never head of the Scottish rite of freemasonry – which I have been studying extensively because Alexander Burnes brother James was No. 2 in it. And they never had a “Court Jew”. Moses Montefiore lived about 400 meters from the study where I was writing this, and was on the whole a good man – there are still charitable trusts operating in his name assisting Palestinians in East Jerusalem.

    Just because someone wrote something in a book in the 19th Century does not make it true.

  18. Thank-you Craig – I bow to your intensive research and will sit down and read my Eretz Yisrael census notes together with an analysis of Mishkenot Sha’ananim and the now Yemin Moshe quarter which of course this great philanthropist and British banker financed through the Montefiore Testimonial Fund.

    I must add my understanding is that Sir Moses Montefiore was of paramount importance to the Zionist cause and the eventual re-establishment of the Jewish State in the Holy Land.

  19. Back on topic (-ish). When I was a student the authorities put up a sign on the grass where we cut across a corner saying “your feet are killing the spring bulbs” (which were not apparent). A wag replaced this with one saying “F*** the spring bulbs”

  20. It’s her fault >1m Iraqi’s were slaughtered with her signature! But she’s nice?

  21. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 2:31 pm

    Various :

    1/. @ Craig (13h35):

    “Just because someone wrote something in a book in C19 does not make it true”

    Well said, and a comment I’d been meaning to make at the approproate juncture for some time now. It is noteworthy how often some people on this blog post links to articles and suchlike in order- surprise, surprise! – to support their own notions.

    As to the rest of your post, I’m gald that you set the record straight regarding Palmerston’s alleged freemasonry and the Hofjuden. I assume that even someone as irresponsible and paranoid as Mark Golding will take your word for it (although a public recognition that he was way off-beam will, I imagine, not be forthcoming). BTW – can you imagine the buckets of urine that would have been poured on my head had I said what you did, Craig? I would have been called, variously, a Zionist hasbara agent, an authoritarian and, last but not least, a disrupter of this blog.

    2/. Clark (12h17) :

    You continue to disappoint, although I’m getting used to it.

    “Habbabkuk also seems to seed the threads with comments designed to provoke conflict”

    This is presumably your way of saying that I don’t tamely accept each and every thought expressed here by those you somewhat somewhat boastfully proclaim to be “promoting progressive or minority opinion”?
    You also claim that I seek to “discredit” the above posters. Is “discredit” a synonym of yours for “argue against” or “disagree with”? You’re not much of a democrat, are you.

    @ Mary (11h30)

    My apologies for mis-attributing, I should have checked. And without checking, I take your word for it, because it is just the kind of comment that Dougie-boy would come out with. Coarseness and bad manners will always through. Perhaps I was thinking of you, Mary, because of that tasteless lottle “quip” you made not so long ago that the poor murdered girlfriend of Oscar Pistorius would have made a great grilfriend for Prince Haryy (or something along those lines – feel free to supply the verbatim quote if you’ve the gall to).

    All for now!

    *******

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  22. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 2:34 pm

    I have just seen the grudging “half-apology” from Mark Golding. Typical though that he can’t just say something like “Sorry for getting that wrong” or “I stand corrected” and leave it at that.

  23. @Johnf – ‘Ed Miliband outs himself as yet another lowlife neocon. On the subject of Syria:’

    It was David Milliband (according to your link).

  24. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 2:41 pm

    @ Clark (

    Forgot this one (there is so much nonsense that it’s difficult to keep track) :

    “Comments can be interpreted as (in Habbabkuk’s words) “stupid and offensive, but doing so is at least partly, maybe mostly, in the mind of the one doing the interpretation”

    Yes indeed. It’s called having an opinion.

  25. @Johnf – ‘Ed Miliband outs himself as yet another lowlife neocon. On the subject of Syria:’

    It was David Milliband (according to your link).

    —————————————————————————-

    Steady on there old chap, don’t let the facts get in the way of a misinformed rant.

  26. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 3:40 pm

    Re. the vulgar and offensive remarks about the Queen’s gastro-enteritis :

    I may have exculpated our friend Mary rather to quickly!

    While it is true that the vulgar and offensive comment about diarhoeia and the consequent need to launder underwear came from the unspeakable Dougie Scourge, I note that the very next post after Dougie’s was one from Mary (09h56 on 2 March) in which she wrote (I quote):

    “Poor old dear {ie, the Queen}. I hope she has not been consuming Brown Windsor Soup”.

    I cannot believe that the Saintly Mary was jumping onto the scatological bandwagon so crudely launched by The Scourge. To reassure me and others, I wonder if Mary would care to explain exactly what she meant by this rather curious sentence?

    Thank you.

  27. Mark
    Saudi terrorists .. financed by the British !!??

    Surely the terror comes from the West and the money from Saudi.
    Are you saying that the proceeds from bank-stolen capital, 20% income tax, 20% VAT, etc can tell Saudis what to do?

    The Saudis are floating the capsized Western banks which releases the stolen capital to the zionist bankers who then tell the blackmailed Western governments who to pay and what to do.

    The Queen is not a naive, unpolitical figure. The first rule of politics in the UK is to convince people that you are not political, which is a trick even Saudi rulers fail to pull off.

    The Saudis combine their Islamic duty to instigate Jihad against dictators, with propagating tawheed/ exclusive worship of God alone in the Muslim world.

    The UK refuses to be a normal European country. I can understand why the Queen is content to dominate her equals, but it is hard to accept that the Saudis would want to dominate their equals in Islam in the same way.

    I think maybe you have been listening to Shi’a rumour mongers.
    I strongly advise you not to listen to them and not to confuse others with Shi’a anti-Saudi prejudice. They do not like being criticised for their false doctrines.

    The British will always support what is deviant against what is truthful. The royalty being head of the church is about as deviant as anything in the world.

  28. Habeas

    Behave. People are allowed to have their individual senses of humour and to share them with others without being told off all the time. I think it’s funny Craig being blonde and wearing a skirt. I think he should keep up with fashion and make it either shorter and tighter or longer and fuller. Why are so infantile about nit-picking over other people’s sense of humour? Mostly just to be annoying, I suppose.

  29. Yes indeed! Raise the Butcher’s Apron to the mast and three cheers for Her Majesty.

    What nonsense. What crimes have been committed in her name.

    Anyone ever read the ‘oath’ that the Privy Councillors take? It is odious and unimaginable in a so called democracy in the 21st century. A relic.

    You do swear by Almighty God to be a true and faithful Servant unto the Queen’s Majesty, as one of Her Majesty’s Privy Council. You will not know or understand of any manner of thing to be attempted, done, or spoken against Her Majesty’s Person, Honour, Crown, or Dignity Royal, but you will lett and withstand the same to the uttermost of your Power, and either cause it to be revealed to Her Majesty Herself, or to such of Her Privy Council as shall advertise Her Majesty of the same. You will, in all things to be moved, treated, and debated in Council, faithfully and truly declare your Mind and Opinion, according to your Heart and Conscience; and will keep secret all Matters committed and revealed unto you, or that shall be treated of secretly in Council. And if any of the said Treaties or Counsels shall touch any of the Counsellors, you will not reveal it unto him, but will keep the same until such time as, by the Consent of Her Majesty, or of the Council, Publication shall be made thereof. You will to your uttermost bear Faith and Allegiance unto the Queen’s Majesty; and will assist and defend all Jurisdictions, Pre-eminences, and Authorities, granted to Her Majesty, and annexed to the Crown by Acts of Parliament, or otherwise, against all Foreign Princes, Persons, Prelates, States, or Potentates. And generally in all things you will do as a faithful and true Servant ought to do to Her Majesty. So help you God.

    It’s not so much Mrs Windsor who bugs me. It’s the office, the multiple hangers on and the panoply of state. We will at some time be having a state funeral and another coronation. No expense will be spared to stage those, just like the nonsense last year which seemed interminable. They will take place when people are unemployed, short of food and money, even without a roof when IDS’s cruel plans come into effect.

    Also think of Bliar, and Brown, standing at the Union Flag draped Cenotaph bowing their heads, and now joined by Cameron fresh from Libya, Mali and his intervention in Syria, covert or overt. Rest assured that they do not give a stuff how many brown skins have been shredded and burned in her Majesty’s name.

    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/11/11/1257938331048/Nick-Clegg-Tony-Blair-Dav-007.jpg

    NOT IN MY NAME.

    Incidentally, we have had enough of the contrived patriotism from the Resident Interrogator and the little cohort of followers. Little SOH too but that is par for the course in my experience.

  30. In addendum to my 2:25 pm post, I’m afraid I really have to say this…
    Craig, you know, sometimes you are a right tit!
    Try to see past her training old boy!

  31. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 4:49 pm

    Another long post from Saint Mary, but I didn’t spot an explanation of what she meant by her sentence “I hope she has not been consuming Brown Windsor Soup”. Her last post might indicate that the sentence was supposed to have been humourous. Shall we assume that it was latrine humour?

    By the way, who are the “we” you refer to? Have you the chutzpah to set yourself up as the tribune of the people? And why is my patriotism “contrived”? Is your pity for the suffering masses contrived?

    But to more serious matters.

    1/. Which parts of the Privy Councillor’s oath do you find particularly odious, Mary, and why exactly?

    2/. If the Monarch is the Head of State – which is the case – why do you begrudge a State Funeral? And the Monarch is also the Crown, so why is a coronation surprising?

    3/. I don’t think the money saved from not having a state funeral and a coronation would go very far to alleviating the misery of the masses. Your comments remind me a little of the moaning Minnies and killjoys who opposed the 1951 Festival of Britain by saying oh, we can’t possibly afford this in a time of post-war austerity, the money would be better spent on worthier causes. Luckily their views did not prevail and the Festival of Britain was recognised as being a great success (no, Dougie Scourge, I will supply neither sources nor explain what I mean by a success, so don’t bother to ask ;) )

    For someone as old as you (as you told us) and with such a zeal for trawling through the media – and I’m sorry to have to say this – you really come across as a remarkably ignorant and blinkered person.

    ********

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  32. Lwtc247

    I understand what you mean, but it is her training I am referring to. We are all deeply influenced by our environment and experiences. You would not have the same opinions you have now if you had been born a member of the Royal family; our behaviour and beliefs are in part genetic but in part, normally the larger part environmental. The Queen is a remarkably pleasant person given how she grew up and – indeed – her training. Of course nobody should be brung up like that. But when you compare her personality and what we know of her actions to others from a comparable background – other members of the royal family, other monarchs, senior aristocracy, she is comparatively a good person (against the low standards of goodness of that class), and given a better chance in life to be so, could have been very nice.

  33. Habbakuk refers us to:

    “the moaning Minnies and killjoys who opposed the 1951 Festival of Britain”

    The moaning minnies were primarily the Conservative party and other authoritarians. The festival was seen as a Labour party project, so much so indeed that the South Bank Exhibition was rapidly demolished by the incoming Conservative administration of Winston Churchill.

    So, thanks for exposing those reactionary moaning winnies, even whilst it’s obvious you yourself would have been at the forefront of that whining and moaning, where of course you remain today.

  34. Guano

    You may not have seen a post a month or two ago where I ruefully complained that Nadira insisted on my dyeing my hair. I put my foor down and stopped, and the “Blonde” you describe (which is actually grey) is my natural colour.

  35. The Resident Interrogator said recently that I did not like the BBC. Quite so.

    Huw Edwards makes accurate reporting sound like some abstruse problem in quantum gravity, something ‘elusive’ that will perhaps forever be out of reach. But his fellow train passenger was surely right. There are ‘fundamental concerns about the BBC’s coverage of Afghanistan’ – and Iraq, Israel-Palestine, Iran, Syria, poverty, global capitalism, impending climate chaos, and on and on. But Edwards – someone entrusted with reading the News at Ten and commenting on royal pageants,no less – is part of the exclusive inner BBC News circle characterised by institutional groupthink that permits no fundamental concerns about the broadcaster’s role.

    ex
    Down The Barrel Of A Gun
    BBC Newsnight, Iraq And The Export Of Democracy
    05 March 2013
    By David Cromwell who is one of the co-editors of Medialens

    No more. I have already told the RI that I will not engage in his/her pointless exchanges. Four months’s worth of the jibes, insults and petty nonsense is enough. Whatever is the larger readership making of it? Just an embarrassment on this valuable blog.

  36. Mary – - – I suspect that many readers have been adopting the same strategy as I have – not reading anything posted by the RI. It’s amazing how much more enjoyable and informative this blog is when one does that . . .

  37. To be fair Palmerston as with us is well aware that a well run park needs a good park keeper and staff.

    How they run the park is dependent on the people who use, as is clear authiritarian means may well be necessary:

    If some is letting their dog defacate regulary on the grass and refuses to stop and clear or clear it up, surely the situatiom would need to be addressed.
    Also volunteers should be forthcoming to work in the park,

    We all love nice parks.

  38. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 6:01 pm

    @ Herbie (17h10)

    Yes, absolutely right, most of the moaning minnies were from the Conservatives, if for no other reason than the government of the time which proposed and then went ahead with the Festival was the second Atlee ministry. But my point was – as you well know – not a political one but to say that there will always be people to complain about any public event and say “this is a shameful waste of public money which could be better spent elsewhere”. Well, they have a right to their opinion, with which I happen to disagree. I also suspect that the majority of people would also disagree, but if you can point me in the direction of, say, public opinion polls or surveys on this kind of subject which say the opposite then I would be happy to stand
    corrected.
    Can’t say fairer than that!

  39. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 6:16 pm

    @ Mary (17h16)

    “What is the wider readership making of it?”

    Well, I wouldn’t object in the least – why should I – if lots of readers (as opposed to regular commenters) did post for once and tell us whether they objected or not.

    (Provided of course that all due precautions were taken to ensure that the Eminences didn’t all write in using 20 aliases each (that sounds a bit mean, but the level of intellectual dishonesty is such on this blog that I wouldn’t put this past them)

    For what it’s worth, I have long thought that there is no way that the 20 or so people who regularly comment here – and in particular that slightly smaller, self-referring mutual admiration and mutual support coterie I’ve been pleased to call the “Eminences” – could possibly be representative of the views of the much more numerous “passive” readership.

    BTW – I suppose that “Resident Interrogator” is your imitative riposte to my use of “Eminences” ? Fine by me, I think I rather like it!

  40. Domestic Extremist

    Apologies for that. (and to Ed Miliband)

    Like the Dimblebies, its often difficult to tell the difference.

  41. If sharing your sense of humour in a public forum involves offensive and intolerant ‘jokes’, then you should expect to provoke comment from others. Habba is well within his rights to question hatred and intolerance, even if it is presented as a dubious form of humour.

    Mary has in fact admitted that part of the reasoning behind some of her more offensive ‘jokes’ is precisely to illicit such a response, leaving her open to the charge of one of her favourite labels.

  42. CE.

    “Habba is well within his rights to question hatred and intolerance,”

    Pot.Kettle.Black.

    Anyone can see over months now who the intolerant bully-stalker is.

    Not to mention the deceitful use of fake names.

    Poor little Habba can’t even get his act together enough to cover his cheating multiple identity tracks.

    Multiple identities,cheating,bullying,and incompetent to boot.

    What a buffoon.

    LOL.

  43. The evidence seems to indicate that the vast majority of people don’t read the comments. Less than 0.3% of readers leave comments, and the amount of time spent reading each article seems to indicate most readers don’t read them either.

  44. doug scorgie

    5 Mar, 2013 - 7:25 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    5 Mar, 2013 – 10:27 am

    “There was also that stupid and offensive comment about diarhoeia and soiled laundry (that may have been Mary, but she can correct me if I’ve mis-attributed).”

    I agree with Clark: “Habbabkuk continues to harass Mary…”

    Habbabkuk you know it was I that commented about diarrhea but you chose to blame Mary, I wonder why.
    Also my comments were neither stupid nor offensive but dark (brown) humour. Perhaps you consider the Queen and the rest of royalty as being of a superior class of people who must be bowed down to and not criticized or made fun of.

    It sounds like you would support the following:

    BANGKOK — A labor activist and former magazine editor was sentenced to 10 years in prison on Wednesday for insulting Thailand’s king, the latest in a string of convictions under the country’s strict lèse-majesté law.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/world/asia/thai-court-gives-10-year-sentence-for-insult-to-king.html?_r=0

  45. Habbabkuk said, “I assume that even someone as irresponsible and paranoid as Mark Golding will take your word for it.”

    I note you draw your ‘strawman’ strength from negativity, preferring to strike when emboldened by variance, mid-course correction or mutation, ignoring the reality that free expression of an honest disagreement is a sign of mutual trust and respect. You were blind the inherent respect in my reply to Craig, in fact, completely missing the post sitting directly beneath Craig’s reply.

    Paranoid is somewhat closer to the truth, an emotional state yes, yet retaining the ability to rationally process and discuss the issue at hand. This despite witnessing the torture of Iraq parents unable to extricate their children suffering from treatable diseases, or comfort the minds of mutilated bodies, bodies full of life without limbs. I have seen and understood the anguish, listened to the aweful moans and smelt the pervasive smell of death.

    No amount of eye-rolling can countermand the present Iran memes that evoke eery parallels” to the AIPAC campaign for Iraq sanctions that paved the way for that stupid war. AIPAC is now using the same escalating measures against Iran that were used before the invasion of Iraq.

    The pathetic platform Habbabkuk hangs his hat lacks accountability, thought and care.

    Life is beautiful when cherished but so easily abused.

  46. doug scorgie

    5 Mar, 2013 - 7:52 pm

    CE
    5 Mar, 2013 – 1:26 pm

    “…I am also quite disturbed by the idea of CMP’s in the UK, but would you also agree the current system is not fit for purpose, when terror suspects can sue the intelligence and security agencies…”

    CE,

    You disapprove of CMP’s then you go on to defend them.

    You say: “…terror suspects can sue the intelligence and security agencies…” Well of course they can and so they should if the intelligence and security agencies commit crimes against them.

    Do you believe that our intelligence and security agencies should be above the law and unaccountable?

    You go on:
    “…national security outweighs the public interest of having open justice.”

    So you support the likes of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Uzbekistan and Guantanamo Bay then.

  47. doug scorgie

    5 Mar, 2013 - 8:08 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    5 Mar, 2013 – 2:31 pm

    “Well said,[Craig] and a comment I’d been meaning to make at the approproate juncture for some time now.”

    Habbabkuk

    I see you have of late been trying to creep round Craig; not very becoming.

    You wrote:

    “BTW – can you imagine the buckets of urine that would have been poured on my head had I said what you did, Craig? I would have been called, variously, a Zionist hasbara agent, an authoritarian and, last but not least, a disrupter of this blog.”

    You missed out wanker.

  48. Well, Habbakuk. This whole bread, circuses and public spectacle thing, is an interesting phenomenon in itself.

    The Romans moved to autocratic rule as “Bread and circuses” came to dominate.

    Can you assure us that the same thing isn’t happening in US/UK now too, or, is it different this time?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 8:53 pm

    @ Herbie (20h18) :

    “Can you assure us that the same thing isn’t happening in the US/UK now too..”

    I can’t, of course, but I must be honest and say that I don’t think it’d matter very much, provided that the modern Augustus Imperator would not be George Galloway and that you and the other Eminences would be the first to be fed to the lions.

    But I digress it is difficult to take you very seriously. But I shall try, with this simple question : is there evidence of societies which are free of a certain amount of ritual, pomp and circumstance and reverence?

  50. Doug Scourgie,

    Selective quoting, why am I not surprised? I also take it you are unaware that some individuals are capable of seeing both sides of an argument?

    At no point did I say that our security agencies should be above the law. I do however believe they should have the right defend themselves from charges without compromising agents or sources. I believe it is a complex issue that is not nearly as black and white as you propose.

    Again you cheaply selectively quote me, what I actually said was,

    “I think CMP’s should be available, but only if their use is decided by a Judge, and it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that their use is a last resort when national security outweighs the public interest of having open justice.”

    Only in your illogical reactionary world could that statement relating to the UK courts indicate my support for abhorrent repressive regimes abroad. Nothing like a good smear though, eh Douglas?

  51. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 9:01 pm

    @ Dougie Scourge (19h25):

    “Also my comments were neither stupid nor offensive but dark (brown) humour”

    So I think we can agree that your comments were just…crap.

    ******

    La vita è bella, life is good! (Dougie has the toilet vote!)

  52. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 9:21 pm

    Craig Murray states (19h15) that

    “The evidence seems to indicate that the vast majority of people don’t read the comments”

    This is both shocking and reassuring. Why?

    It must be shocking for the Eminences that virtually nobody reads the vapourings over which they have taken so much trouble and into which they have poured so much careful thought, subtle analysis and dialectical skill. Shocking also for it to be revealed that they are, essentially, talking and preening to each other but to very few others. No wonder dissenting voices cause their systems such a shock. Shocking, furthermore, that the “shits” and “fucks” and, newly, “wankers” , far from raising cries of adulation from the to-be-convinced 99%, merely serve as meagre inspiration for fellow Eminences.

    On the other hand, it is reassuring that Craig Murray himself is unlikely to suffer reputational damage through association, in the public’s mind, with his crazier disciples. If the latter remain largely unread, there is little risk that someone will think “my God, if this is the sort of person he attracts, he must be as loony/stupid/uncivilised/illiterate as they are. Secondly, Craig’s information would seem to absolve me from the charge of bringing the blog into disrepute and I thus feel empowered to continue to expose the grosser absurdities of the Eminences secure in the knowledge that the only people reading my comments are those Eminences themselves and boy, they certainly do read them, LOL!)

    *********

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  53. doug scorgie

    5 Mar, 2013 - 10:01 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    5 Mar, 2013 – 9:01 pm

    @ Dougie Scourge (19h25):

    “Also my comments were neither stupid nor offensive but dark (brown) humour”

    “So I think we can agree that your comments were just…crap.”

    Ha! you have joined in the “toilet humour” you were ranting on about.

  54. I am so sad to hear just now that Hugo Chavez has died. May his good soul rest in peace.

  55. Personally I love the comments threads. I nominate the “not forgetting the al-hillis” thread as the greatest comment thread in the entire history of the blogosphere (for ehich I claim no personal credit, no comments by me there). And I am extremely attached to the community of regular commenters – equally to those who tend to agree and to those who tend to argue, without which it would all be very dull.

    Of course, my personal favourites are those who mostly agree with me but sometimes don’t. But pretty well everyone I value. I even miss Larry sometimes. And I really do miss Anticant, Postman Patel and others who have shuffled off this mortal coil since we started.

  56. :D

  57. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Mar, 2013 - 11:29 pm

    Crab; I fear there is much more room for hijinks…..http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/05/chavez-funeral-venezuela-president-chalice

    “Opinion polls suggest Maduro, a former bus driver lacking the charisma of his old boss, will struggle against Capriles, a youthful challenger who casts himself as a centrist and has the support of traditional elites. Maduro, however, stands to benefit from an emotional funeral, a tight timetable and the “red machine”, a formidable electoral alliance of the ruling PSUV party, state institutions and oil revenues.”

    Correa is now the sole target for CANAL/CIA. How old is Mandela now? I also fear for SA.

  58. Clark wrote:
    “Interestingly, it is also nearly impossible to imagine Habbabkuk “coming down on the non-authoritarian side of any argument”, whose comments always seem to favour the powerful and attempt to discredit those promoting progressive or minority opinion”

    A bit like you coming trying to put down anyone who doesn’t agree with the global authoritarian take on man made global warming and tarnish them as ‘deniers’ ey Clark?

  59. The problem is not that you deny, it is what you deny. You take offense to being labelled “denier” a charge you would be comfortable with if you were not in denial :p

  60. BrianFujisan

    6 Mar, 2013 - 12:09 am

    Its a shame though , that some presences are paid to try and disrupt Threads for whatever political agenda.

    From a Troll Turned Whistle Blower, on such operations

    My task? “To support Israel and counter anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic posters.” Fine with me. I had no opinions one way or another about Israel, and who likes anti-Semites and Nazis? Not me, anyway. But I didn’t know too much about the topic. “That’s OK,” she said. “You’ll pick it up as you go along. For the most part, at first, you will be doing what we call “meme-patrol.” This is pretty easy. Later if you show promise, we’ll train you for more complex arguments, where more in-depth knowledge is necessary.”

    She ( Trainer ) handed me two binders with sheets enclosed in limp plastic. The first was labeled simply “Israel” in magic-marker on the cover, and it had two sections .The first section contained basic background info on the topic. I would have to read and memorize some of this, as time went on. It had internet links for further reading, essays and talking points, and excerpts from some history books. The second, and larger, section was called “Strat” (short for “strategy”) with long lists of “dialogue pairs.” These were specific responses to specific postings. If a poster wrote something close to “X,” we were supposed to respond with something close to “Y.” “You have to mix it up a bit, though,” said my trainer. “Otherwise it gets too obvious. Learn to use a thesaurus.” This section also contained a number of hints for de-railing conversations that went too far away from what we were attempting. These strategies included various forms of personal attacks, complaining to the forum moderators, smearing the characters of our opponents, using images and icons effectively, and even dragging the tone of the conversation down with sexual innuendo, links to pornography, or other such things. “Sometimes we have to fight dirty,” or trainer told us.
    our opponents don’t hesitate to, so we can’t either.”

    “Focus on the popular posters,” my trainer told me. “These are the influential ones. Each of these is worth 50 to 100 of the lesser known names.” Each popular poster was classified as “hostile,” “friendly,” or “indifferent” to my goal. We were supposed to cultivate friendship with the friendly posters as well as the mods (basically, by brown nosing and sucking up), and there were even notes on strategies for dealing with specific hostile posters. The info was pretty detailed, but not perfect in every case. “If you can convert one of the hostile posters from the enemy side to our side, you get a nice bonus. But this doesn’t happen too often, sadly. So mostly you’ll be attacking them and trying to smear them.”

    A few days ago I happened to be in the same neighborhood and on a whim thought I’d check out the old office. It turns out the operation is gone, having moved on. This, too, I understood, is part of their strategy: Don’t stay in the same place for too long, don’t keep the same name too long, move on after half a year or so.

  61. BrianFujisan

    6 Mar, 2013 - 12:12 am

  62. What is it that you think i’m denying Crab? Since when did disagreeing and questioning become denying? Sounds like you you could have been one of the first holding a match whilst chasing Galilieo…

    Besides that you miss the point. To label anyone a denier of this subject would mean that the person making the accusation arrogantly believe that he or she should be the one framing the debate based on their own unquestionable truth. At least a more consistent argument would be for people who believed in man made global warming (now conveniently and quietly changed to climate change by the way) as sold by the (largely dicredited)IPCC to call themselves man made global warming believers according to their findings. Then at least they would have a place to label people who didn’t agree with their particular hypothesis ‘deniers’ or ‘Crab’s man made global warming hypothesis deniers’

    In short, consistency of argument and learnt lessons from Galileo would help

  63. Chris Jones wrote (to Clark), “A bit like you coming trying to put down anyone who doesn’t agree with the global authoritarian take on man made global warming and tarnish them as ‘deniers’ ey Clark?

    Oh come on. That’s like accusing someone of “coming down on” those believing the world might yet be 6000 years old or thereabouts, and anyway – let’s talk about this “global authoritarian take on man made warming” of yours for a moment, if you will?

    For one thing, almost nothing at all is being done to mitigate the effects which are causing GCC. A pretty odd course of (non) action for a major, globally-led authoritarian all-encompassing movement, as you’d have it.

    A substantial proportion of the political and general population think it’s either nothing to worry about (being the greatest hoax ever, which they’ve cleverly rumbled), and useful idiots for the fossil-fuel lobby (like your good self) pop up every time the subject is aired. Even, in your case, when it has not even been aired. Not a single freshman US Republican/ teabagger senator or congressman will say they accept the science of GCC.

    Where is this “global authoritarian” movement of yours? Where are their enforcers, and how are they doing? Seeing many urban dwellings, even cities, being demolished to be replanted for newly grown forests? Has the practice of raising animals for food diminished? Oil consumption spluttering out, air transport and car use dwindling worldwide, and let’s cut to the chase – how far down are CO2 emissions now? Are they in reverse, maybe?

    Get serious for a change, Chris. Start by addressing the above, instead of getting all vague and wandering off, just to bring up the same crap next time around.

  64. Chris Jones wrote, “man made global warming (now conveniently and quietly changed to climate change by the way)

    “Conveniently”, because so many half-witted morons were looking at snow and – burping, farting and snorting – yucked “Gah- funny – snow! Global warming – cold! Funny how it’s snowing then!” – being unable to distinguish between weather and climate, and that the whole thing is a lot more complex than a uniform rise in temperature everywhere at once.

    But that’s explaining, and – as every crowd-pleasing huckster knows – if you’re explaining, you’re losing the argument. A simple lie is vastly more powerful than a complex answer, no matter how precise and correct.

    Go GCC IS more convenient, because it gets around the snarks and snickers of idiots who think if it’s cold, GW must be a myth. A notion you’d be enthusiastically promoting, if the term GW was always retained (as you fully well know).

  65. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Mar, 2013 - 1:20 am

    “Conveniently”, because so many half-witted morons were looking at snow and – burping, farting and snorting – yucked “Gah- funny – snow! Global warming – cold! Funny how it’s snowing then!” – being unable to distinguish between weather and climate, and that the whole thing is a lot more complex than a uniform rise in temperature everywhere at once.”

    Perzactly !. *chuckle….Glenn; you have made me awaken from sleep, with this. Kindly refrain from rhetoric during nappytime.

  66. Hey Ben.. remember to turn of your “new post notification” klaxon during naps or meditation sessions!

    This sort of weak crap (“Oh – oh – so it’s GCC instead of GW now? Gotcha! Phhssszztt!!” etc.) reminds me of the most facile arguments against meat-free diets, such as an earnest, “But… but what would happen to all the poor animals?” – hoping any audience is stupid enough to be taken in by such sham concern over a point which suddenly got turned on its head.

    While Chris Jones is not the worst for this sort of thing, quite, he does have a somewhat unfortunate habit of running away from the discussion he starts, ignoring everything explained and referenced, and then pretending they are all there afresh the next time. Not exactly the mark of the most intellectually honest individual. He’d dispute that – natch! – and anyone hearing Clark’s clear and precise dissection of GCC denying while Chris Jones nipped in & out of the discussion would know that. GCC deniers rely on ignorance in an audience – the more profound, the better they like it (particularly when it concerns their previous discussions on the same subject).

  67. Chris Jones

    6 Mar, 2013 - 2:00 am

    @Glenn_uk

    A great ad hominem respone Glenn. Mention of 6000 year old creationists – tick, mention of fossil fuel lobby – tick, mention of Republicans and teabaggers – tick. Remember to call persons with a different viewpoint idiots – tick. However none of that has anything to do with the point i was making about consistency and context of argument.

    However, i’ll go through some of your other points:

    “For one thing, almost nothing at all is being done to mitigate the effects which are causing GCC. A pretty odd course of (non) action for a major, globally-led authoritarian all-encompassing movement, as you’d have it”

    ….a good point – and your half right. Funny isnt it – not much is being done to stop heavy pollution from toxic industry (its all being shipped to China anyway) and mass illegal wars yet we will are increasingly taxed Carbon taxes on everything that we do

    “Where is this “global authoritarian” movement of yours? Where are their enforcers, and how are they doing? Seeing many urban dwellings, even cities, being demolished to be replanted for newly grown forests? Has the practice of raising animals for food diminished?”

    ….As i tried to explain to another ‘believer’ ,where isnt it being enforced? You’re obviously not aware of Agenda 21 and how man made climate change is mostly a cruel hoax which has conveniently led to global sustainable development – a lovely cuddly green excuse for tyranny and mass collectivism. That fairly nice house you’re probably living in – i’m afraid the state will need to take that from you – i’m sure you can understand – its for the good of the environment you see. Oh, and that CO2 you’re breathing out and which plants need to live – i’m afraid you’re going to have to stop that too, after we’ve taxed it of course

    “….So GCC IS more convenient, because it gets around the snarks and snickers of idiots who think if it’s cold, GW must be a myth”

    ..i see, yep that makes total sense Glenn – you’ve, like, totally convinced me

  68. Chris: Shame you didn’t hear about that dodgy brown acid, but … it’s your head at the end of the day.

    Agenda 21 – once again, are you serious? A non-binding call to sustainable development, and this is a major problem for you? Alex Jones must be chortling with glee!

    Where is this “mass collectivism”? Where is any indication that this – gasp – state! – is going to take it from me? OMG! Where’s my gun? I’m gonna stop them, goddammit, see if Aiii don’t!

    Those “ticks” you refer to must be coming from your twitchy eye – they’re all legitimate, easily verified FACTS. Not some crazed “agenda-21″ Alex Jones, Glen Beck paranoia. Take any one of them, any one, and discuss it. Gah, of course you won’t, I waste time on your brand of lunacy.

    Agenda-21. Give me a break. Get serious. Sober up. Or at least, just post on TheBlaze, where your absurd paranoia will be treated seriously.

    Your silly lot has been running around with this absurd paranoia about a UN-led takeover since the early 1990′s (since Clinton was elected, funnily enough!), and despite zero evidence, shows no signs of getting any less crazy,

    *

    Go on, just for a laugh… tell me when/ where/ how “the state” is going to take my house away. This should be good. :)

  69. Great article is there any chance I can take it and copy it onto my own blog

  70. I could not stay in bed listening to the anti Chavez poison coming out of the World Service this morning. Someone said recently that it is part funded by the US. This was very obvious this morning.

    Some of the nastiest comment came from this individual. He must have been known by the BBC for his views and called in for the appropriate purpose.

    Semester in Washington

    Bradley A. Blakeman, J.D.
    http://scs.georgetown.edu/departments/19/semester-in-washington/faculty-bio.cfm?a=a&fId=2025

    The outfit he set up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom's_Watch See who was in it. Repellent.

    I sincerely hope that Maduro (a former bus driver we were helpfully told by BBC News just now by a female named Cordelia Meyer*) wins the election which will be called within the next month.

    *http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/cornelia-meyer/4/ab8/525 Get the picture?

  71. More of the same and a good example of what will be said and written by the right wing over the next few weeks and beyond.

    Nicolas Maduro: profile of Hugo Chavez’s vice-president and successor
    The former bus driver who became vice-president of Venezuela has built his entire career on loyalty and obedience to Chavez, writes David Blair.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9780902/Nicolas-Maduro-profile-of-Hugo-Chavezs-vice-president-and-successor.html

    Bus driver bad. Can’t have the people represented by one of the 99%. Oh no. It has to be one of the 1%.

  72. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    6 Mar, 2013 - 8:05 am

    If “Christian Louboutin” would let me get a word in (just kidding, Christian :) ), I’d like to come back to a sentence posted by

    Dougie Scourge (yesterday at 20h08) :

    “Habbabkuk
    I see you have of late been trying to creep around Craig; not very becoming”

    Would Dougie consider that the following two sentences merit inclusion in his Shorter Guide to Creeping (Glasgow University Press, 2013, 2nd ed.)?

    1/. (from Herbie on 1 March, 22h23) “Great speech at Oxford, Craig. You’re a natural at extemporising whilst hiding the craft. Almost Joycean.”

    2/.(from Mary on 4 March, 17h24) “You {ie, Habbabkuk} even have had the nerve to cross question Craig.”

    Just wondering!

  73. Mary,

    The ‘obviously US funded World Service’ that you refer to has precisely zero effect on editorial policy, but was in fact a grant from the State Department(low six figures, a drop in the ocean of the World Service Budget) to help combat jamming and blocking from countries with authoritarian governments.

    Attempting to provide people under the rule of such governments with as much information as possible is something I thought most reasonable people, even those afflicted by knee-jerk anti-americanism, would think is a positive move.

  74. Habbakuk asks

    “is there evidence of societies which are free of a certain amount of ritual, pomp and circumstance and reverence?”

    Perhaps in the deepest recesses of anthropological inquiry, there may well be, but as you acknowledge yourself it’s all about how much, by whom and to what purpose.

    Wall to wall bread and circuses are certainly a feature of the decline of Rome, and many have pointed out that we’re at a similar juncture with the cheap food policy, and thoroughly saturated with entertainments.

  75. Here’s a very interesting article outlining the history of liberation theology and exapling why the Americans were murdering Catholic priests and archbishops in south America:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/05/us-still-fighting-threat-of-liberation-theology/

  76. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    6 Mar, 2013 - 12:10 pm

    @ Herbie (09h17) :

    “Wall to wall bread and circuses (sic) are (sic) certainly a feature of the decline of Rome, and many have pointed out that we’re at a similar juncture with the cheap food policy, and thorougly saturated with entertainments”.

    Those pesky Caesars certainly have a lot to answer for, don’t they.

    But your post has certainly helped me to understand why the price of iPods and electonic games has been going down in real terms.

  77. Habbakuk

    It’s hardly a phenomenon confined to Rome. Others have played the same game too, and it didn’t end well.

    Nor I imagine will the US/UKs version end well.

    You’re remarkably complacent for one whose brief is to keep an eye on the great game.

  78. “the amount of time spent reading each article seems to indicate most readers don’t read them either.”

    I read them all, one of the best information sources on the net. Well, almost all. Does Habba have shares in a company that makes scroll wheels?

  79. Keith Crosby

    6 Mar, 2013 - 2:14 pm

    Can a person take the money and still be a “good woman”, knowing where it’s stolen from?

  80. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Mar, 2013 - 3:04 pm

    A moderator! A moderator !

    My Kingdom for a moderator…..

  81. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Mar, 2013 - 3:46 pm

  82. Chris Jones

    6 Mar, 2013 - 4:54 pm

    @Glenn_uk

    You remind me of a joking teenager ignoring all the danger signs at the start of a bad horror film

    So global warming has now been changed to climate change to make it easier for people to understand, but global warming is still happening but they’ve stopped saying that because people don’t understand the concept of things getting warmer? Hmmmm, I see (Never mind that met office figures show there has been no warming for the last 15 years and that they predict it to get colder for the next 5 – maybe Alex Jones told them to lie )

    I consider myself an environmentalist and a lover of nature by the way. Climate change of course is a no brainer – we have always had climate change and hopefully always will. And mankind must also have some effect on his climate. If only we could trust the government paid scientists to be a bit more honest about these figures and trends ey?

    Of course the secret courts that were proposed and agreed this week are also an Alex Jones/teabagger conspiracy. Agenda 21 is just a cuddly little booklet. Nothing to do with the host of new new carbon tax laws including the new one to fine cyclists for breathing out C02 for example.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/state-legislator-seeks-a-new-carbon-tax-on-bicycle-riders

    - probably just Alex Jones making it all up again

    Seems that reality deniers are the problem

  83. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    6 Mar, 2013 - 7:55 pm

    @ Ben Franklin, (15h36)

    “Polonium again? Correa, be alert”

    That is absolutely right. I can reveal that at this very moment a team, consisting of the CEOs of certain large corporations, the Pope-elect (yet to be chosen), PM Netanyahu’s niece, the Chief Rabbi and Richard Nixon (deceased) are preparing to fly westwards to do the deed. They’ll be on the way as soon as they’ve been to the pharmacy to buy the polonium. Rumour also has it that they that they’ll swing through the West Coast after succesfully concluding their mission in order to take care of Ben as well. Ben, it was nice reading you – hasta luego, amigito!

  84. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    6 Mar, 2013 - 7:57 pm

    on reflection, that should have been “adios, amigo! ” :)

  85. Hey Chris Jones: you said, “Never mind that met office figures show there has been no warming for the last 15 years…

    Didn’t I tell you before to beware of any comparison, which uses 1998 as it’s starting point? If not, my apologies – but somebody should have.

    1998 was a remarkably hot year, and weather – as you know – is not the same as climate. 1998 marked a huge spike in an generally upward trend. But the disingenuous, out to hoodwink decent people like yourself, will casually throw that in there as if it’s just any old random starting point.

    Next year, the argument will be, “In the last 16 years…”, “… for 17 years” in the year after that, and so on.

    But it’s simply incorrect to say there has been no warming for 15 years.

    If only we could trust the government paid scientists to be a bit more honest about these figures and trends ey?

    Indeed. Damnable cheats and liars, those climatologists are spending their entire careers knowingly working their falsehoods.

    How unlike your favoured truth-tellers, who just happen to work 1998 into their comparisons all the time. Did you know about this, btw? Are you one of the fooled, or trying to do the fooling?

    *

    You’ll have to take AJ less seriously – some nut of a legislator quotes flawed, junk science to suggest cyclists ought to pay a carbon tax, and you’re all bouncing off the walls again. Here’s news – some nut legislator (in the pockets of the fossil fuel industry) is coming up with idiocies like this on a daily basis. Breathe into a paper bag for a bit – calm down mate. Your old mate Ronnie Reagan said that trees were a cause of pollution, and his environment secretary James Watt firmly believed that the environment needed no concern, because Jaysus would be returning soon, making everything new again. Repugs are not scientists, and nearly all are stooges and/or idiots.

    And try not to lose any sleep about Agenda-21.

    You were about to tell me how my house was about to be sequestrated – could I have some details, please? I’d like a chance to empty the safe beforehand!

  86. Mary

    At the time of your comment about the Privy council, Her Majesty bless her had just been having problems with a tummy bug. Puts a whole new meaning to the term Privy.

  87. Guano: Interesting you should bring that up. “Privy” only meant bathroom functions back in that day of the writing of the US Constitution. It’s often put forward that the word “privacy” is not mentioned in it, therefore the Founders never intended for personal privacy (not a straw man – this is a major point contended by enforcement interests).

    Notwithstanding 4th Amendment rights to protection of your papers and effects, the only reference to “privacy” in the C18th was to excuse oneself to attend to biological imperatives.

    Curious, actually, that we still refer to such as “bathrooms” or -in the US – “restrooms”, being apparently afraid to refer to them by their actual function. One which all of us typically requires several times a day.

    Or maybe just once, if you’re made of as stern a stuff as Komodo.

  88. Chris Jones

    7 Mar, 2013 - 4:25 am

    @Glenn_uk

    I would recommend not making arguments that rely so heavily on irrelevant strawmen or on rather laboured attempts at discrediting. Labelling people who don’t agree with your viewpoint as either republicans, Ronald Regan lovers,Christians, idiots or nut jobs is not a very enlightened position from which to try and preach. Very eighties but not very enlightened or inclusive. Or liberal come to that. Framing the debate as an archaic partisan left / right one is also pointless – i’m sure you’re aware by now that there is only superficial differences between the two ping pong sides.

    You’ll need to take up your temperature points with the Met office though. They and the Climatic Research Unit of the University of East Anglia would i’m sure be happy to show you that statistically there has been no change in the average annual temperature of the globe since 1997, meaning that the standstill is actually now 16 years. The latest five-year average of Hadcrut3 and Hadcrut4 data even shows a decline for the first time. And four out of the last five winters have been colder than average but lets not start splitting hairs. Do you think though that this possibly might have something to do with why GW has been quietly changed to GCC?

    Again, who can doubt that climate change occurs and that man has an effect on it. I think that what i suggest we can agree on is that those naughty climatologists have been slightly overcooking the books, the facts and the figures for reasons which has previously been outlined. First appears a map showing a warmer mediveal period, then as if by magic it’s gone, only to be replaced by the completely different and gloriously flawd hocky stick graph. Then there was also all that climategate email scandal of course. Oh what fun and games they must be having.

    You have a safe!? Lucky you

  89. Hey Chris… let’s get something straight. I’m trying to discredit the argument, not your good self. You seem to be a decent enough person, unfortunately I feel you’ve been duped. Pointing out the far-right’s tendency to ignore all concerns about the environment is very much to the point – they (along with big business interests generally) have a long track record of using distortion, denial, obfuscation and outright falsehoods, to attack anything that gets in their way.

    The very idea that we should reduce CO2 output, is something that gets in the way of business profits. Getting people to doubt the actual science of climate change is a great way to ensure that nothing gets done about it.

    We can certainly argue about this graph, or that set of data, but come on – we’re not climatologists. People who are, and who digest this sort of information for years, who are qualified to do so, have concluded that man-made GCC is taking place at an alarming, catastrophic pace. It’s a little silly to hand-pick some item and – context free – declare the climatologists are all wrong, and the whole thing is clearly a hoax.

    Taking of discrediting, it seems the work has gone well with you. “Climategate” again? Seriously? Didn’t we discuss this before, didn’t you discuss it with Clark?

    http://factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/

    The above is a pretty good read for anyone wanting the truth about “Climategate”, and frankly it shows a shocking lack of integrity in anyone persisting with the slur. You now have the opportunity to learn the truth, and stop doing it.

    There have been seven (as I recall) commissions of inquiry into this – every one of them cleared East Anglia University of perpetrating a falsehood. It’s like Al Gore’s supposed claim to have invented the Internet – just keep repeating the slur over, and over and over.

    So – are you a person of integrity? Or are you going to carry on claiming that “Climategate” is anything except a misleading tactic by GCC-deniers? This one really is an either/or, I’m afraid.

  90. Chris – with your permission, please may we leave it there for now. I won’t do justice to your considered replies for a bit, dealing with a personal issue which makes all this suddenly seem terribly trivial. Take care, and remember to tell those you care about, that you love them.

  91. It really pains men to recall this. One person in power* I can remember who really did come down on the side of the masses – once – was Thatcher. Some rabid Tory banker’s buddy MP was complaining that the scum on benefits should not be permitted to spend their criminally acquired income on fags and beer, and that said income obviously needed to be reduced if not ended for ever, for the benefit of the aforementioned feckless scrotes’ work ethic (etc). It was probably someone like Nigel Lawson**. Thatcher responded that it was their money to spend as they wished.

    *as opposed to seeking it
    **href=http://www.carbonbrief.org/profiles/nigel-lawson/link”>”Lawson presents “misleading messages” that his conclusion on temperature rise show a “surprising ignorance of elementary statistical analysis” and recommends the peer “begin with a course of reading of the IPCC reports.”

  92. ^screwed that up, didn’t I?

  93. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    8 Mar, 2013 - 3:35 pm

    Komodo; welcome.

  94. I hope your personal issue is resolved and you are well Glenn_uk. For the sake of all our loved ones i’ll offer this from the First global revolution publication by the club of Rome:

    “The common enemy of humanity is man.
    In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
    with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
    water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
    dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
    changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
    The real enemy then, is humanity itself.”
    - Club of Rome

  95. Hello Chris…. thank you for your well wishes, unfortunately they are unlikely to be met. Found out yesterday that the old man has inoperable, advanced, cancer of the liver, and doesn’t actually have much time left. He was being scanned for something else altogether when it was picked up. Amazing how suddenly one finds life turned upside-down.

  96. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    9 Mar, 2013 - 12:40 am

    Glenn; No words can suffice. Just remember that there is some solace in having time to say farewell. It is much worse when someone is taken suddenly, leaving you to wish you had said more.

  97. Ben: Thank you, appreciated. Still reeling from the shock, actually, but at least I’m glad that we have been frank about our feelings for each other, particularly in recent years. We have become great friends as adults, and always were very close. As mentioned, I’ve no idea how long we’ve got at the moment, a few months probably.

  98. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    9 Mar, 2013 - 10:09 pm

    I too am very sorry to hear that Glenn and hope that your father has any pain that he gets properly relieved. I am sure that he is being helped through, knowing of your love and concern and that you have time together.

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