They Really Do Hate Scotland

by craig on July 16, 2014 3:46 pm in Uncategorized

This blog exclusively broke the news that Juncker was much more friendly to Scottish independence, and that was a major reason for Cameron’s bitter opposition.

Unionists were in frenzies of delight this past 24 hours at Juncker’s statement that he saw no further enlargement of the EU for five years. Wings Over Scotland has done an excellent job of summing up the triumphalism of the media and of every senior Unionist politician you can think of.

The BBC deserves the massive criticism it has been given for unionist bias, but James Cook of the BBC deserves credit for asking Juncker’s office whether his statement included Scotland. The reply could not have been more clear. Juncker did not include Scotland in that statement. As Juncker had said before, Scottish independence is a matter for democratic decision and is an internal EU matter. Juncker was talking abut the length of time it would take applicant nations to meet the acquis communitaire, or body of EU law, regulation and obligation. Scotland, by definition, already does meet the acquis.

All this Juncker’s office told the BBC explicitly. What is implicit, and self-evidently true, is that Scotland’s independence is not an enlargement, it is just Scotland remaining in, requiring some internal readjustment.

This ought to be good news for everyone – including the unionists.

I can understand that there are people who genuinely love Scotland, but wish for reasons of history to retain the United Kingdom. I even understand some of those honestly believe Scots will be wealthier and happier in the UK. I think they are very wrong, but entitled to that view and some people hold it sincerely.

But such genuine Unionists, should they lose the referendum, would surely wish Scotland to remain in the European Union? That already guarantees the continuance of all the most essential links between England and Scotland, in particular full freedom of movement and settlement and trade and citizens’ rights. It is also important for Scotland’s future prosperity.

Surely a real unionist would want to retain the Union, but still want Scotland to remain in the EU if it became independent?

But instead, every professional unionist politician was gloating at the entirely fictitious prospect of Scotland being kicked out of the EU. They were absolutely delighted at the prospect. They really hate Scotland.

There are decent unionists. But the professional politicians are not decent unionists. They were delighted at the very idea that Scotland might be kicked out of the EU. Because actually they hate, despise and fear Scotland and the Scots. For them, Scotland only exists to pay for their very comfortable public funded lifestyles. The idea they may lose their power, influence and above all their money, horrifies them.

“You are going to vote for the Union!! You are going to vote for me!! If not, you are going to SUFFER, you bastards, SUFFER!!!”

I have a prize of two hundred pounds available to the first person who can show me an instance of the media reporting Juncker’s clarification with the same prominence, space and energy they devoted to splashing the Unionist scare story.

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106 Comments

  1. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    16 Jul, 2014 - 3:59 pm

    “I have a prize of two hundred pounds available to the first person who can show me an instance of the media reporting Juncker’s clarification with the same prominence, space and energy they devoted to splashing the Unionist scare story.”

    The media? I think you should be a bit more specific if you want to hang onto that £200.

  2. Please donate my £200 to a Gazan charity:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28311938

  3. Save your bet Craig for another day; it won’t happen. But I do agree with you about those Unionists who can only hate Scotland. What other conclusion are we to reach?

    Jobsworth Kennedy couldn’t contain his glee when he sat down in Westminster to then entertain himself when Cameron stood up to make an announcement hanging on the breath of a bare faced, unashamed lie. Now Cameron can be excused. Few in Scotland voted for him or his party so he really has nothing to lose.

    But Kennedy with a seat representing Ross, Skye & Lochaber, a huge swathe of West highland Scotland? This treachorous comic would rather see his constituents disadvantaged in so many ways, there’s not room here to mention ONLY so that he can continue to pad out his expense sheet & cement himself a gold plated pension.

    Only in dusty leather bound historical narratives can one recount such treasonous, self interested greed from people who claim to be “proud” Scots.

    Am I really living in the 21st century? Really? Because it actually feels like I have been shoved into the tardis, drugged & then woken up when the time clock stopped at 1745.

  4. It was the break the No & Bitter Together campaigns have been praying for. Finally a fact that supports all their negativity.The hand of God goal to clinch the game.
    And then the Monty Python foot of Juncker came down on it all.
    Very cringeworthy.

  5. “That [an independent Scotland’s continued membership of the EU] already guarantees the continuance of all the most essential links between England and Scotland, in particular full freedom of movement and settlement and trade and citizens’ rights. It is also important for Scotland’s future prosperity.”

    Actually, given that Scotland seems to be the most pro-EU part of the UK, it would make an rUK’s withdrawal from the EU and the ending of those guarantees more likely.
    the most reasonable solution if there is a separation would be to make Scotland the “successor state” and allow it to remain in the EU and require the rUK to apply for membership.

  6. “Scotland, by definition, already does meet the acquis”

    You define acquis communitaire as body of EU law, regulation and obligation. Is it known what Scotland’s obligation would be? Has its financial obligation to the EU been agreed and, if so, what is it? Surely Scotland has not met the acquis until this obligation has been agreed by all parties.

    Scotland has done very well from the EU. As one of Europe’s more deprived regions it has benefitted greatly from EU funding and investment, while the costs of membership have been borne by the UK as a whole. That will all change after independence.

  7. Hector

    Yes – if following a yes vote in September, the rUK have their EU referendum in 2015/16 and vote to leave the EU, that must be a serious possibility.

  8. MJ

    The financial arrangements between EU states – contributions, regional funds, CAP etc are not part of the acquis communitaire in the sense of conformity with EU law for accession negotiations. The acquis has to be met; the financial flows are then negotiated.

    I don’t think the financial aspects are going to be a particularly difficult negotiation at all.

    The UK assessed contribution to the EU is paid from general taxation. As with all general UK taxation, Scotland has paid a disproportionate share relative to its population. I don’t think there will be a major change either way in the cost per capita for Scots to subscribe to the EU.

    There is no reason why eligibility for regional funding should be significantly different to what it is now.

    Unlike you, I have actually participated in accession negotiations. For you to pretend that there are obstacles to Scotland joining the EU, which are of the order or nature of those which faced Romania or even Poland, is ludicrous. I really have never understood your motive for posting disinformation on this subject, continually.

  9. “For you to pretend that there are obstacles to Scotland joining the EU, which are of the order or nature of those which faced Romania or even Poland, is ludicrous”

    I’m not pretending anything. I said nothing about Romania or Poland. I was simply asking whether the costs of Scotland’s EU membership were actually known.

    “I don’t think there will be a major change either way in the cost per capita for Scots to subscribe to the EU”

    That’s alright then.

  10. I am obliged to interject this big government love in. Your pro-independence and pro-EU position is a contradiction you liberals donny ken. Let me explain.

    All governments are rich-club, killing machines. The bigger the government the more corrupt and the better at killing it is. USA, China mean anything to anyone? The EU is heading towards being a monster.

    Down with the EU! Keep politicians in your eye! Radical decentralisation now!

  11. Phil

    I decided to come and live in Spain a few months. And here I am. I didn’t have to ask anybody’s permission. I didn’t have to explain myself. I didn’t have to fill in a single form. I didn’t have to notify anyone.

    Now I am here I can work if I want. Move money back and forward as I want. Not only do governments not stop me, the bastards are actually not allowed to stop me. And it works. Here I am, meeting lovely Spanish people and enjoying life.

    You see, Phil, that’s what freedom actually is. Living your life expansively without any bloody government official prodding you or saying yes and no. And that is precisely what the EU has given its citizens – vastly expanded freedoms.

    But don’t you worry. Just knit another tinfoil hat and stay there.

  12. Melanie McKellar

    16 Jul, 2014 - 5:28 pm

    @Herbie you said :
    Please donate my £200 to a Gazan charity:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28311938

    Actually if note the time on that article 21:11 you will realise that it was an update after James Cook had received confirmation from Mt. Juncker’s office.

    @Craig
    Another excellent article…I have to say I first saw the ‘scary headline’ yesterday afternoon when some ‘NAW’ voter posted a link on the SNP FB page. The link was from the Daily Record and after reading it my heart sunk! You see I am a Scottish citizen resident in the EU, I live here, my husband works here and we can do this because of freedom of movement within the EU. Now I have to say I know the Daily Record leans more favourably towards the Union so before I started looking for contact details for Mr. Juncker to clarify the story in the DR I googled to find out if Scotland was actually mentioned or even Catalonia for that matter. At the time Google News showed 2 articles Headlining the ‘blow to Scots EU plans’ one from the record and one from the Scotsman but German and Russian as well as other ‘international’ news organisations did not mention Scotland or Catalonia but only the 6 counties already in the process of application.
    I have to say that although I was angry I have never been so happy to read the WoS article highlighting James Cook tweet!
    At the end of the day you Craig are spot on…there is a smug hatred of Scotland but it is not personal per se it is because deep down many Unionist politicians know the game is up, their meal ticket will be lost and what’s more the Scots will soon find out that they have been taken up the garden path and duped for years and we are going to show the world what a smashing wee country we are!
    Rant over…#GoforitScotland

  13. That they will be locked out of the EU would surely be the best argument for Scotch independence, since whatever the lying bastards promise in the way of a referendum, the Government in London will never allow the UK to opt out.

  14. Im with Phil on this EU project. It will be the end of all of our future privacy freedoms and prosperity, that is the objective. An unelected commission…..whats to like!

  15. YouKnowMyName

    16 Jul, 2014 - 6:12 pm

    Im with Phil on this EU project. It will be the end of all of our future privacy freedoms and prosperity, that is the objective. An unelected commission…..whats to like!

    troll

    The EU project isn’t against future privacy, future freedoms & future prosperity – that’s a 180 degree distortion of the truth! The project, according to Junckers statement today – will seek to ensure that the Commission builds the Council of Europe declaration of Human Rights fully into the acquis, in the near term, and joins the Convention of Fundamental Rights. Paraphrasing, he’s also going to go hell-for-leather for growth & jobs in the next 5 years, apologies that I’m mentioning to you actual themes from actual documents rather than pro-austerity ‘smelling of gchq’ wibbly-words!

    The 2014 Commission, Commissioners are being legitimately appointed by National Sovereign Governments, The Parliament was voted for by mass suffrage, The Commission President was appointed strictly & democratically following the vote – the most democratic process yet, Yes, what’s to like!?

  16. I am glad you are with Nadira and Cameron and not solo in Kent. Cameron must be five now. He will be picking up some Spanish.

    Is there a good broadband service where you are in Spain? I assume there must be.
    .

    ~~~

    Caught a YT of Esler the other day doing his usual, this time with Billy Connolly. Sly. Tried to make him identify with others in the UK 3 mins in.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-26233388

    Not Esler but general BBC unsubtle prop, in equal measures as it happens.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26275521

  17. The fact remains that Scottish people do not know whether they will be in the EU in two months. That is not the fault of the Unionists but the Yes campaign and the EU.
    What the Unionists fear is exactly what seems to be happening – that the EU are deliberately obfuscating and staking out a bargaining position so that Scotland will eventually be forced to join the EU under poor terms (eg give up all its oil) or is forced to join the euro. Then they would use Scotland as a weapon against the rest of the UK.
    Yes, I like travelling to Spain too, and just have. But it is very difficult to find decent work in Spain without being fluent in Spanish. The English and Scottish, on the other hand, share a language and several hundred of years of common traditions.
    Devo-max is the answer, not splitting up the UK.

  18. Jim Campbell

    16 Jul, 2014 - 6:33 pm

    MJ

    “Scotland has done very well from the EU. As one of Europe’s more deprived regions it has benefitted greatly from EU funding and investment, while the costs of membership have been borne by the UK as a whole. That will all change after independence.”

    Indeed, as one of Europe’s more deprived would indicate that it is also one of the UK’s more deprived area’s.So where has all our “aid” from Westminster come from as part of the Union, surely, enabling ALL of it’s peoples to live on a common standard would be the main principle to strive after? Is this not the benefit of being a part of a “Union”? I would also suggest that the UK, as a whole , has also benefitted from Scotland’s taxpayers, business and resources.The fact remains that the No and Better together campaigns continue to rub their little hands in glee @ every opportunity to brandish their negativity, or throw more fuel on the never never fire….. That Scotland should change after Independance is nothing to be afraid, or negative about…moreso , it’s to be embraced.It’s about time we changed, under a democratically taken vote and ensuing government. We have democratically requested change in Scotland, at the polls, for years and that has gotten the people of Scotland nothing more than austerity, assett stripping and derision from Westminster. One more thing? If we are troublesome,belligerant, benefit stripping beggars standing with our bowls in hope of payouts from our benevolent betters…surely they would prefer us to be cast out without recompense nor second thought and good riddance to bad rubbish. One less nose in the trough is a good thing…..unless, of course, Scotland is, disproportionately, filling the trough in the first place?

  19. Bitter Together smacks of desperation.
    http://t.co/MPJqntctUA
    Better not watching this after a heavy meal.

  20. I’m not really seeing the point of independence and then giving most of it to the EU. I’m sure it’s nice to travel to Spain and meet nice people freely, but the reality is most of the migration is economic, and with different sized economies, well it ends up weighing on the lower-wage earners in some countries, and siphoning off valuable skills in others creating imbalance. Besides, ANY centralization of power is a bad thing. This should be common history by now.

  21. Tom,

    There really is no provision anywhere in the EU that would enable the EU to claim any of Scotland’s oil. I really do worry about who feeds out this information to people like you.

    I have been closely involved in accession negotiations (Poland) and I know two current EU Commissioners. There really is not any hostility to Scotland from within the EU – why one earth would there be? With the exception of a minority of nationalist politicians from Spain. But most Spanish politicians realise that Scottish waters are essential to their fishing fleet, and that an unreasonable stance towards Scotland will actually boost, not decrease, feeling in Catalonia.

    There is no chance that Scotland will be outside the EU for a day. That is the strong view of both Merkel and Juncker, and pretty well the entire staff of the commission.

  22. Bill,

    We are in the EU already. Now when has the EU actually imposed on your freedom? The weight of the EU (and the related European Court) is very strongly in removing restriction, not imposing it. The existence of EU regulations preventing us from crossing the street and going to the pub is entirely a product of the imagination.

  23. MJ

    especially for you, 100% of the SNP’s 6 MPs voted against the disgraceful secret surveillance bill. http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com.es/2014/07/51-mps-drip-emergency.html

    Now can we hear your usual litany of how the SNP are just exactly the same as the other NWO parties?

  24. If the EU re-writes the Data Retention Directive then the SNP will have no option but to incorporate a Scottish DRIP into law whether they want it or not.

    http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/police-cooperation/data-retention/index_en.htm

    Never mind the waste, the inefficiency, the rampant corruption and threat to the sovereignty of elected national governments Craig can have a nice holiday in Spain, a country only just recovering from the economic upset part caused by it’s improper membership of the Euro so everything’s alright.

  25. Kempe

    Yes, and Britain’s economic collapse was caused by?

    If Scotland were independent, it could oppose the rewriting of the DRD – and I think veto it, have to remind myself what pillar its under. But wouldn’t be difficult to get a blocking minority I should think.

  26. Our economic woes were nowhere near as bad as Spain’s which is still struggling with a 25% unemployment rate so good luck with finding that job.

    If it were so easy why didn’t one of the existing member states block or veto the original DRD when it first passed into EU law eight years ago?

  27. “Now when has the EU actually imposed on your freedom?”

    You build a pretty good strawman, I gotta say. Quite easy to knock down though aren’t they?
    I massively respect a lot of your opinions, but unfortunately the EU isn’t one of them.

  28. doug scorgie

    16 Jul, 2014 - 8:03 pm

    Craig
    16 Jul, 2014 – 5:15 pm

    “Now I am here I can work if I want.”

    I am pro EU Craig, but there are issues that need to be addressed. I doubt that the neo-liberal free market ideology of the EU is geared to helping EU citizens but rather geared to aid the exploitation of labour by international corporations.

    In my view the free movement of labour is part of the neo-lib agenda to keep wages down.

    Yes you could work if you want Craig but Spain has an unemployment rate of 25% and youth unemployment at 54%. Whose job will you take?

    The free movement of labour simply exacerbates serious social problems in many EU countries and thus does not help Europeans to feel at one.

  29. The Press and Journal printed the correct story within its referendum pages.(aberdeenshire edition) The correct story of Junkers words being mishandled by BT. No proof lol but refer to story online, hopefully will find it their. Now do I get my 200 squid lol? Last nights papers review on BBC news channel issued a corrected statement to the story on the Telegraphs front page which originally showed the uncorrect version of Junkers words. Now thats 2 sources of evidence from the MSM.

  30. I think your £200 is safe.
    The amount mindless hyperbole spouted on this subject never fails to amaze me.

  31. Doug

    The idea that there are a finite number of jobs in the world, and that if I take one I am depriving some Spanish person of work, is infantile. the idea that the world was better before Polish people could work in the UK, and that they are driving down wages of hard-working Brits, is frankly such arrant nonsense I am sorry to see you subscribe to it.

  32. If ever a thread headline was proved in the following comments.
    Excellent work Craig.

  33. “Now can we hear your usual litany of how the SNP are just exactly the same as the other NWO parties?”

    Not at all, I’m very thankful they voted that way. I will be very envious of an independent Scotland rid of that legislation.

  34. I wonder if there’s a self-loathing element to all this, especially in the Tory ranks.

    I mean, some of this lot really would like out of the EU. In fact many of them, on a certain level, surely dream about it. And then when they stumble on a factoid that suggests an independent Scotland may not remain in the UK, there’s an orgy of delight and mockery… that Scotland might get to a place they dream of? Huh?

    I’ll confess I’m not hugely pro-independence, but the incoherence of the pro-unionist lobby is quite something.

  35. I’m not anti-EU … but:

    I do think the benefit described by many as of major importance, a great boon they say -of freedom of movement, accrues only to those relatively well off, it is not everyone, but few who can simply take off gypsy-like (and I don’t mean that pejoratively) wherever they fancy, own or rent a property here and keep a roof over their head and a place to lay their head, much less here AND somewhere else, so this ‘benefit’ of the EU actually grates with most people, as for most it is as much an option as a daytrip to the moon. It simply is not an option, instead it is one ‘treat’ dangled then pulled away sharply as pesky reality comes in and snatches it away ha-ha. It benefits a slightly widenened elite disproportionally. How does the freedom of movement benefit someone who has never had the means in their adult life to travel much more than 30 miles from their home town? At the other extreme from the jetsetting brigade, it forces people to up-sticks, leave, home, family and friends and migrate without even having any idea of where and how they will live, except by begging or in ‘black’ economic activity. So let’s not overstate this advantage, for others it simply grinds their noses in their powerlessness, confronts them with their relative poverty, it actually disadvantages people by giving them a ‘freedom’ of which they are constantly reminded, which is only hypothetical as far as it could apply to them.

    Usual disclaimers: I support Independence from Westminster for Scotland, oppose NATO, and monarchy and think we should and will have our own currency, also called the pound for convenience, using the English pound until transition. I recognise the human rights protection that the EU offers, contrasted with UK nation state erosion of those rights and recognise too that pre-1707 Scotland was blockaded by England and resumption of trade with the continent was a ‘benefit’ of that 1707 Union, notwithstanding it was England which interceded with malice and shut down that trade and trade is still the most important reason for keeping healthy Scottish links with that European market as sellers and buyers, within that European family to which we unquestionably belong.

  36. Don’t know why I have not been able to post on this thread – what has wrongly been dismissed as spam – but so be it, as my attempts have been in general agreement with Craig.

    Wonder if he is afraid of just being called another nutter,

  37. Her Molesters' Government

    16 Jul, 2014 - 8:56 pm

    Now we know why GCHQ constructed that massive propaganda apparatus. It’s to keep their hooks in their first colony.

    That’s not the British pedo-toffs’ last line of defense, sad to say. They’ll certainly stuff the ballot boxes if they have to. You’re going to have to fight your way out as Slovenia did.

  38. Tony M

    I honestly don’t think that’s right. There is a really thriving community in Thanet of East Europeans now. I don’t think they are rich. And it’s true that not everyone can be mobile – but the ones who are bring all kinds of benefits to the ones who are not.

    I am not rich either, incidentally. But fortunately mobile, I agree.

  39. Trowbridge

    Nothing we are doing. But nothing in spam trap either. Best not to worry – I always assume the security services are there, and just take no notice of them.

  40. >The idea that there are a finite number of jobs in the world,
    >and that if I take one I am depriving some Spanish person of
    >work, is infantile.

    So there are an infinite number of jobs, then, and the unemployed are just lazy buggers?

    I presume you subscribe to Blair’s view that corporate globalization is unstoppable, right?

    Should the Chinese working at Foxconn be thanking Apple and Microsoft for creating jobs, as opposed to complaining like whiny liberals, and, occasionally, even throwing themselves out of windows in a fit of left-wing rage?

    Are you also a flat Earther, one who believes that economies can grow and grow ad infinitum, and consumerism and greed is good for society and the world generally?

    Do you think that NAFTA has been good for Mexico, and Mexicans who are forced to cross the border into the U.S. are NOT being exploited by corporations, but being given a helping hand up?

    Would there be less economic migrants coming to Britain if Poland and other Eastern European countries had more civilized economic and social policies – i.e. if their governments and the EU put people first? Or, are the Poles and penniless foreigners, generally, just lazy bleeders, save, of course, for the ones who come to Briton, individuals who want to contribute to society, not sit on the dole from cradle to grave like many Brits do?

    In short, is it your belief that corporations and the business community are backing policies that are improving the lives of the great unwashed, and the government should just get out of everyone’s way?

  41. I no longer trust Westminster to manage Scotland’s affairs. You only have to look at the NHS in England, watch as it is dismantled to make it TIPPS compliant and ask: Is Westminster and the UK really going to tolerate a Scotland with a publicly funded NHS? Westminster would see it as a rebuke to their rightwards lurch to extreme austerity. Poor English voters would be angry as Proud Unionists ™ like Osborne have been telling them how they pay for everything in Scotland.

    When we are not being condescended to by an array of “celebs” – we are constantly being crapped on by an array of cartoonishly inept imbeciles from Westminster. Yet I am appalled to see proud Scots but proud to be British, positively wallow in this Arse gravy that passes for the positive case for Union.

    The union is already dying. fatally wounded by the very ones who were supposed to protect it. Its simply a matter of how and when it is finally consigned to history, not if.

  42. I’m waiting for Craig’s gracious congratulations to Herbie who was so quickly off the mark at 4.03 pm with a clearly prize-worthy entry. Why not invite Mary to nominate the Gazan charity, to keep her mind off her impending visit to hospital?

  43. Herbie, let me know if Craig pays up to your chosen cause because he’ll owe me a hundred quid in September.

  44. Just happened again when I thanked you for the clarification, said no congratulations were necessary from you for the BBC explaining what a menace Mr. Juncker is when it comes to the Yes vote, and asked Orr to explain about Mary going to the hospital.

    Hope the securocrats are really getting worried about my claims regarding the No vote.

  45. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    16 Jul, 2014 - 9:39 pm

    Craig

    I usually disagree with Mr Scorgie, but you are being too harsh on him (and traducing what he said) when you write:

    “..the idea that the world was better before Polish people could work in the UK, and that they are driving down wages of hard-working Brits, is frankly such arrant nonsense I am sorry to see you subscribe to it.”.

    It follows from that that I, also also pro-EU, have some sympathy for Mr Scorgie when he writes:

    “I am pro EU Craig, but there are issues that need to be addressed.”,

    and while I feel he’s over-egging the pudding in his 2nd and 4th paras there is a grain of truth there as well – at the very least, the possibility for workers to move freely enables employers and the state, in the UK for example, to avoid the trouble and expense of ensuring that the UK’s own work force is properly educated and trained to fill the available jobs.
    ~~~~~~~~~~

    A look back to the beginning of the EEC Treaty is required. The position then was that there was a severe labour shortage in a number of the original six Member States, then experiencing rapid economic expansion. And there was one part of one Member State which was not sharing in the economic boom and had a considerable surplus of labour – the Italian Mezzogiorno. The free movement of workers (only workers at that time, not the self-employed or retired people) dates alll the way back to that period and was part of the grand compromise and quid-pro-quoing of the original Treaty*. In essence, it enabled the Italian state to export the unemployed of the Mezzogiorno.

    But the phenomenon was limited in extent/numbers (in terms of what was imposed by the Treaty)**

    The position the EU is in at present is very far removed from context of 1958. We have a post-crisis EU of 28 which is not booming and in which not the Mezzogiorno but a number of entire Member States have high unemployment and which are, in effect, “improving” their economies by exporting their unemployment.

    The argument in a nutshell is, therefore, that a freedom which was beneficial to all concerned back in 1958 is no longer necessarily fit for purpose in the vastly different Europe of 2014.

    ______________________

    * The inclusion of the first social provisions in the original EEC Treaty is another example of this, included at the insistence of France in order to prevent its industry from being undercut by German industry.
    ** There was also, of course, strong labour movement into certain EEC economies (and Switzerland) from non-EEC countries, but this was at the discretion of the host countries and not an obligation under the EEC Treaty.

  46. Any bet, Anon, for the No vote winning because of a most convenient, man-made disaster unless the polls show that it has proven unnecessary, meaning there is no bet?

    Say $200?

  47. “I decided to come and live in Spain a few months.”

    An Englishman masquerading as a Scot, constantly bleating on about Scottish Independence, decides months before the referendum he never shuts up about to go and live in Spain rather than his ethnic homeland.

    If it wasn’t so pathetic it would be funny.

  48. Sadly Craig has spent too much time globe-trotting on the government payroll to know much about the effects of EU imigration on the ordinary worker. Take the example of the Polish decorators working down the road from me for £70 per 12 hour day. No mortgage, no children, all living together, while local decorators with families and mortgages to pay lose work. But then Craig has expressed his disdain for the English working class on this blog and, what with his frequent jollies around Europe, it’s small wonder he can’t see the increased freedom to work and holiday abroad as of any real consequence to the “racist and intolerant” working class. If only they could see those magnificent Polish castles as he has seen them then they would wonder what all the fuss is about.

  49. “Any bet, Anon, for the No vote winning because of a most convenient, man-made disaster unless the polls show that it has proven unnecessary, meaning there is no bet?

    Say $200?”

    Give me some properly defined terms and you’re on, Tro. Are we talking sustained rain in the central belt or CIA tectonic manipulation?

  50. Nothing we are doing. But nothing in spam trap either. Best not to worry – I always assume the security services are there, and just take no notice of them.

    Most sensible assumption, and judging by the flack coming your way the boys are pissed off and their Yorkshire terrier weight attack dogs are chewing at you ankles.

    However for a nice read on the subject of human rights and freedom freedom freedom hey freedom freedom freedom ho, take a look at this;

    My name is Elizabeth Coady and I am the tweeter behind @HeadlineJuice.

  51. @Anon Yes when you have a gold plated civil service pension to live off (paid for by the working tax payer) then you can take the moral high ground without damage to your life-style.

  52. O/T Tony M,

    In case you missed my reply over there I didn’t find any other comments by you stuck in moderation/spam on squonk – other than duplicate posts.

  53. Aaron

    You have indeed pierced into the heart of the matter.

    I think Nicholas Georescu-Roegen the American economist explained the problem and asked a question that goes to the nub of the matter:-
    The reality that our system is finite and that no expenditure of energy is free confounds us with a moral decision at every point in the economic process.
    What is truly in the interest of man not in the present only but as a continuing species?

    David Reid the Scottish academic answered thus:-
    This question involves some consideration of policy of social goals and what Herman Daly called the ‘ultimate end’ by which we justify consumption of the ‘ultimate means’ the resources of the planet and the stocks of low entropy they represent.

    Until policy makers can grasp this reality there is no hope.

    People matter!

  54. Aaron Rant

    Since you ask, no, I think there should be policies including but not limited to a good minimum wage (ie much better than in the UK now) and strong trade union rights. I also think there should be a law limiting the differential in total emoluments between the highest and lowest paid in the company or organisation. I think a factor of 6 is probably about right. So if the cleaners at Burberry are on 15,000, the chief executive can’t get more than 90,000 (as opposed to the current 3.5 million). I think we would rapidly have some much better paid cleaners – obviously with safeguards to prevent dodging through contracting, separate companies etc. I have lots more jolly ideas than that one.

    None of them however involve controls on freedom of movement of people, goods and capital.

  55. Ed L

    I am here because my wife is doing a masters degree here and I am babysitting. I have always lived all around the world. I don’t intend that Scottish people would be held prisoner with an exit visa system. Lots of Polish people live in the UK – does that stop Poland being an independent sovereign country? Of course it doesn’t.

    I must say I find the level of personal venom and abuse quite disturbing, both from you and Anon. And I will indeed have a rather small civil service pension, but not until I am 60.

  56. And it is not true in the least that I despise the British working classes. who I do despise are the stupid asses from the Communist Party, the Socialist Workers’ Party, Left Unity or whatever else useless and hopelessly, terminally unpopular organisation you belong to, when you delude yourselves that the working classes somehow mystically hold your opinions because they are “the people” so they must, whereas in fact they are very much more likely to read tabloids and vote UKIP. It is your ludicrous romanticisation of the working class which is patronising and delusional all at the same time.

  57. Craig

    a law limiting the differential in total emoluments between the highest and lowest paid in the company or organisation. I think a factor of 6 is probably about right.

    Being a diplomat, you should also be ware that despite the fact that mandatory pay structures would be adhered to, however sooner than later the the question of profit sharing, bonuses and stock options will be re-evaluated, with the bosses getting paid even more than before, and the workers pay getting suppressed because the bosses are so poorly paid!

    There has to be a cultural shift from winner takes all, greed is good, and more emphasis on prominence of human capital, as oppose to the current trends of the cheapest factory being the human factor.

    Those complaining about the working class and their unemployment, these pernicious elements are betting the people remin unaware of the The Poor Relief Act 1601 and its subsequent rehashing in Poor Law Amendment Act 1834.

    By stopping someone even poorer earning a living, somehow the poor lot don’t get to be rich, and enjoy the fruits of their labour at a higher premium. Classic case being Detroit, and its civic structures, that has brought on the current bankrupt Detroit. Although this line of patter panders to the insecurity of the poor and keeps them baying for the blood of the even poorer.

  58. Craig

    the Communist Party, the Socialist Workers’ Party, Left Unity or whatever else useless and hopelessly, terminally unpopular organisation you belong to,

    What a misassessment?

    EDL (English Defence League) and Anon (JDL Jewish Defence League) are neither communist, nor socialist, or any other lefty lot. These rabid “nationalists” are in the ilk of the “National Socialists” of the yesteryear.

    Read their “contributions” again! Anon is sore because you outed Janner, and he/she was flaming the blog, and still is “Angry”.

    EDL is busy pushing the “ethnic” Fazerland bullshit.

    My money is on; these are one and the same, given the number of the software available for multiple persona activities on the net.

  59. Fedup

    “however sooner than later the question of profit sharing, bonuses and stock options will be re-evaluated”

    That is why I wrote “total emoluments” if you look. The only way to reverse the unsustainable wealth gap which has developed is extremely firm action by the state. To be in a position to enact such a law presupposes a very different political climate to the one now existing, one in which the rich cannot do anything they want.

  60. Thanks for drawing my attention to the “total emoluments”, we are n total agreement on the issue.

    Further as you have pointed out the current climate of post “greed is good” of the Thatcher/Reagan era is far from the climate for such a change. We need a cultural change, and a reassessment of the current measures and bounds of acceptability and tolerance of the obscenely rich.

  61. There is a lot of dodgy dealings that certain people and their party do not want out,who knows how dodgy or perhaps this investigation over paedophiles and sexual deviants will uncover much worse than sexual misdeeds,paedophilia is bad enough but there were stories about 40 years ago about how at least one boy was killed by a group of paedophiles they were caught and jailed,could there be more of this? I think that the panic that they seem to be in could uncover a lot of bad deeds.I hope not,and that it is only their greed that they want to hide.

  62. I am talking about any convenient, apparent man-made disaster – like a surprise, devastating earthquake along the Highland Boundary Fault, an unexpected volcanic cloud and tsunami from volcanic eruptions in Iceland, a devastating hurricane from North America which hits Scotland like Katrina demolished the Gulf Coast, a shift of the Arctic Vortex which causes unprecedented flooding and loss, a shipping mishap which kills many, and a nuclear meltdown like the one which devastated the Fukushima plant.

    They all will be explained by me as to how the Pentagon et al. had any one of them happen, and the deadline is two days before the voting in September,

    The bet is off, though, if the respectable polls when averaged claimed that the Yes vote never got within 5 points of a victory in the referendum.

    Any new surprises along the way will be the subject of discussion, and possible agreed upon amendment of the bet which is set at $200 American.

  63. ‘The argument in a nutshell is, therefore, that a freedom which was beneficial to all concerned back in 1958 is no longer necessarily fit for purpose in the vastly different Europe of 2014.’

    Habba makes a good point here; the freedom of movement championed by Craig has left the countries of Eastern Europe admitted to the EU in a demographic free -fall worse than that of their big neighbour, Russia-

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/01/22/the-new-eu-members-are-depopulating-more-quickly-than-russia/

  64. The “freedom” enjoyed by all, an example of which is;

    Far-right Group Britain First ‘Invade’ South London Mosque Over ‘Sexist’ Signs

    Members of the far right group Britain First have “invaded” a mosque in south east London demanding that ‘sexist’ signs be removed from the entrances.

    In a video the activists can be seen confronting an elderly Imam at the Crayford mosque over the separate “brother” and “sister” signs – threatening him by saying “when you respect women – we’ll respect your mosques”.

    When is the mosquenacht (kristallnacht redux)?

    How many laws have been broken?

    Yet there will not be any prosecution of the culprits, this is in the latest in which the group all clad in their inform of flat cap and olive green jackets have “invaded” mosques in a crusade to hand out ” British Army Bibles” with no reaction from the politicians or the police.

    The open season on the Muslims started with “illegal asylum seekers” pupating to the current hate fest against Muslims, which is all in the way of spreading freedom and respect for human rights.

    The old man threatened by the invader “Christians” is further ordered to cover the cross in the brickwork, because it is offensive to “Christians” to see a cross on a mosque building!

    However curiously the chief of the invaders then goes onto delivering a speech about the rights of Muslims in this country and then walks into the police station to be arrested!

    Britain First Fail Dismally In Attempt To Get Leader Arrested, Say He’s Been Arrested Anyway

    Members of the pseudo-militia group Britain First have posted an amateurish video of themselves hovering outside a police station waiting to get arrested.

    The group boastfully posted on Facebook Wednesday that party leader and former BNP councillor, Paul Golding, had apparently been arrested after he and some Kent and London “battalion activists” turned up at Bexleyheath Police Station.

    Clearly an example of respecting human rights and inclusive society that we have here in UK and can show it off to the world with pride and joy.

    Meanwhile back at the ranch Babar Ahmad has been found guilty and sentenced to 12.5 years imprisonment.

    Ahmad was born and brought up in Tooting, London. His father, a retired civil servant, and his mother a retired science teacher, emigrated from Pakistan in the early 1960s. He was a prize-winning student and obtained a master’s degree in engineering from the University of London.

    ….

    Syed Talha Ahsan,34, a fellow British Muslim who admitted related offences and was extradited with Ahmad, will be freed after being sentenced to an eight-year term – the same period he has already spent in detention since his arrest in London in 2006.

  65. On Tuesday, Bayan Sami Abdul Rahman, the KRG’s representative in London called upon pro-Israel David Cameron government to provide greater defense and intelligence support to the Kurd entity.

    Rahman, whose post makes her effectively Kurdistan’s ambassador in London, said the Kurds were Britain’s ally in the fight against terrorism and extremism. However, Britain refused to supply defense items such as electronic jamming equipment to the KRG without end-user certificates issued by the Iraqi government. Baghdad refused to issue such certificates if the equipment was destined for Kurdistan.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/07/17/bibi-erdogan-support-kurdistan-in-iraq/

  66. @ Fedup 26 July 10.10 PM re your comment “My name is Elizabeth Coady and I am the tweeter behind @HeadlineJuice”

    I don’t have the slightest problem understanding Ms. Cody’s horrible story. A journalist who takes an independent view supporting Wikileaks against the position of the security services would be seen as dangerous and easily subject to a Zersetzen program, and there is also precedent for a journalist (Anita Busch in LA for example) being persecuted to stop her from criticising a celebrity. It is a pity that the UK doesn’t have journalists of similar courage.

    You talk about freedom, freedom, freedom, etc. Well there were also examples close to home of Zersetzen from the Snowden leaks, though I don’t recall seeing much about them in the UK media.

    Snowden leaked a series of training slides from GCHQ’s recent training program that advocated the use of techniques designed to “disrupt”, “diffuse”, “destroy”, and “discredit” their victims. Now that’s the language of a Stasi-style Zersetzen program particularly when other GCHQ slides go on to describe the objectives of these techniques as being to “create cognitive stress” “create physiological stress” “create affective stress”.

    What Mr. Snowden is referring to, and what we continue to experience, is a process of persecution whose stated objectives according to GCHQ’s training slide are to “create cognitive, physiological and affective stress” in their targeted victims. These are not the techniques and objectives of a normal Spy agency but the techniques of a Secret Police, and a nasty one too.

  67. Methinks it will be require something much much more underhand than that un-fathomed level of carbon monoxide, to preserve the monarchy. There will have to be people as dead as a dodi then? By September? Phew?

  68. Testing

  69. This just read a piece on the BBC website reporting Alex Salmond’s comments regarding independence and the Health Service. If someone opposed to independence had said such things about the future of the Health Service in an independent Scotland what would have happened?`First the BBC would be accused of being biassed then all the things which were said by the Unionists in this piece would have been said by the Nationalists. “Scaremongering”, “disinformation”, “getting desperate”, etc.

    I post here on things that concern me, I raised the matter of the DRIP vote, I raise the matter of the arming of the police in Scotland, things like that. One thing that worries me right now is this dirty nationalist politics and those who would use nationalism to incite hatred between peoples. That seems to be turning into a real threat as it has so many times in so many places throughout history.

    That is nationalist with a small “n” by the way and includes the fanatical rabble rouser of both sides.

  70. A fair days pay for fair days work does not exist in the capalist run society, a small minority due well but the remainder generally have struggle, this has been amply proven in this present recession or slump.I cannot for the life of me begin to understand how voting for Scottish independance will change anything for working class they will screwed as per normal. The post war concensus that was to make Great Britain a better and fairer place to live has been dismantled ,what is in place that will protect any future workers rights in a new independant Scotland.

  71. Jennifer Wallace-Zotou

    17 Jul, 2014 - 9:20 am

    I’ve never thought that iScotland would be either thrown out of the EU, or left having to re-apply for membership. However, I’m very concerned about TTIP, which poses huge dangers for NHS Scotland, and many, many other matters, as well as undermining democracy, and creating supra-national tribunals – effectively dissolving a great part of any state signatory to it. How does iScotland deal with this?

  72. I really don’t think most unionists give a toss whether Scotland would be in or out.
    In fact I think that the EU in order to piss off the English would be delighted to let an independent Scotland join the EU,and thus make it far more likely that the rest of the UK left the EU.
    Then we’d all be happy?

  73. Fred

    But you live in Scotland and I would truly be very surprised if you had encountered any hatred.

    Seydlitz

    Scotland kept free university education, free NHS prescriptions etc. I have no doubt at all the worker’s rights will be better in Scotland. There is, for example, a significant socialist and green presence in parliament, unlike England.

    Actually the “workers’ unity” argument is the most rubbish of all. Worker’s rights are appalling in the UK and getting worse – therefore we must keep the UK – is an astonishingly stupid argument.

  74. I meant non Scots pro unionist!(except those in politics)

  75. Something here reminds me of “Animal Farm”.

  76. “Syed Talha Ahsan,34, a fellow British Muslim who admitted related offences and was extradited with Ahmad, will be freed after being sentenced to an eight-year term – the same period he has already spent in detention since his arrest in London in 2006.”

    Thanks Fedup for highlighting this wonderful news that Talha Ahsan is coming home. His brother, Hamja, has run a tireless campaign. His parents must be overjoyed. The charges, which they both had to accept in a plea-bargain, do not warrant even six months in prison, let alone extradition. But the slavish Theresa May, who hates Islam with venom, handed them over to be tortured in Supermax prisons into extracting a false confession. Still the important news is he’s coming home.

    Sorry about this being off topic, but I hope you understand.

  77. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    17 Jul, 2014 - 10:09 am

    Actually the “workers’ unity” argument is the most rubbish of all. Worker’s rights are appalling in the UK and getting worse – therefore we must keep the UK – is an astonishingly stupid argument.

    Up to a point, and not a very distant one, IMO. The EU (and Juncker especially) is about countering US and Chinese exploitation of global markets with European ditto. That is, it buys globalisation, uncritically. The underlying trend in globalisation is to encourage a flexible workforce. This is doublespeak for a cheap workforce, with the bipedal production units taking as little as can possibly be arranged from the supermen who actually run things by talking to each other and flying round the world.

    The easy solution to the UK woes is to support the globalist agenda. That will, ideally balance the books and make the already-rich very happy indeed, but we need not expect a general rise in the standard of living or quality of life, but a continuation of its current decline. We can get out of the EU and attach ourselves to the US rump, or we can stay in the EU: the upshot will be the same.

    UNLESS the bipedal production units resist this, and insist that their share of the profits is commensurate with their value to the production process, rather than being determined solely by the profit margins of the global funds which own the business.

    Which is very unlikely to happen. Isn’t it?

  78. And another off-topic, today is the 11th anniversary of the day somebody, on the instructions of Tony Blair, murdered Dr David Kelly, so he could turn Iraq into a demolition site.

  79. You know what really gets me about these No campaigners is the absolute relish they exude when they think Scotland is fucked up, even , god forbid, these people cling on I’d never want to see Scotland damaged, yet these so called Scots are so wrapped up in their desperation they would literally see Scotland burn, and enjoy it with such relish :-(
    Can I make this clear once and for all, this is the facts and reality, THE very first thing that will happen is Scotlands legal position will be determined by the European courts, the only question that needs to be put before the European judges is, is it reasonable to ask 5 million already EU citizens to reapply to be EU citizens, I see no circumstances where a European court could return any verdict other than that would be unreasonable, it would go against all the core values of the EU to abandon 5Million of it’s citizens, that act in itself would pull apart the EU, it will never happen, Scotland will remain in the EU by court order, no need for approval, no need to reapply, just a ruling from the courts to the commission to chamge the letter heads.
    So please stop playing the games of the No people and made up nonsense of Westminster, that is the process already set out and stop letting your lack of knowledge on EU processes force you in to playing these made up nonsense games with those anti-EU unionist liars.

  80. Ba’al Zevul

    You have to be extremely stupid to buy in to protectionism and mercantilism.

  81. YouKnowMyName

    17 Jul, 2014 - 10:27 am

    we all know that DRIP is being passed today, Thursday, due to the ‘emergency’ – the UK emergency being that the EU Data Retention Directive (DRD) was declared invalid a while ago. What about the ‘emergency’ in the other EU states? Germany never (officially at least) implemented DRD, Austria has just ruled that retaining data must cease in that Alpine state – maybe Eire will follow soon, as they were a co-presenter of the case to the ECJ?

    Some of you here on Craig’s excellent blog might have heard of SLOVENIA, member of NATO and the EU, with a population about a third of the size of Scotland.

    Data retention [declared] unconstitutional, deletion of data ordered
    The Constitutional Court of the Republic of Slovenia abrogated the data retention provisions of the Act on Electronic Communications in its judgment U-I-65/13-19 of 3 July 2014 following the constitutional request lodged by the Information Commissioner in March 2013 and ECJ judgment of 8 April 2014 in Joined Cases C-293/12 and C-594/12…

    The Court abrogated [many legal] articles and instructed operators of electronic communications to delete retained data immediately after the judgment is published in the Official Gazette. The Court holds data retention as disproportionate for the following reasons:

    – unselective retention of data constitutes a breach of rights of a
    large proportion of population that did not provide any reason to
    justify such this;

    – blanket data retention does not provide for anonymous use of
    communications, which is particularly important in cases where
    untraceable use is necessary (e.g. calling for help in mental distress);

    – arguments for the selected retention periods (8 months for internet
    related and 14 months for telephony related data) were not provided nor
    explained in the legislative preparatory documents;

    – the use of retained data was not limited to serious crime.

    The [Slovenian] Information Commissioner Pirc Musar emphasised that this is one of her most important achievements during her 10-year mandate which is now ending. The decision of the Court represents an important part in the debate about the necessity and proportionality of the use of surveillance measures and technologies in the context of law enforcement and intelligence agencies

    …just thought that you in the UK, and Spain, might like to see how DRIP compares with the places where DRD is an ‘emergency’ in seemingly the opposite direction! (If you want the link to 13 pages of legal Slovenian, just google for “US_RS_ZEKom-1_3julij2014.tif”)

  82. Workers’ rights in this country are not appalling. They might not be as good as they could be but try the Indian sub-continent or the far east, the people who make all our “stuff”, if you want appalling.

  83. Craig “Worker’s rights are appalling in the UK and getting worse ”

    The false recession created by economists has not only increased management power through fear of unemployment, but has reminded us that economists can unpick all the talent and creativity of the workforce by re-structuring the money into their own pockets. We climbing up an escalator which is going down.

    The simple presence of Socialist and Green ethics in Scotland is an antidote to the despair of being placed on a treadmill in a cage by the economists. But there again the place to find bright slogans is the mouths of politicians chasing a political victory.

    I am being bombarded with texts offering work at the moment because the Tories want to make a feel-good factor after 6 years of the construction industry being locked down. But they want you to work on slave conditions. People in the EU will not put up with austerity and being treated as slaves indefinitely.

    I do not believe that Tory politicians actually have a braincell to understand that workers have to be incentivised same as bankers in order to work.

  84. Craig
    16 Jul, 2014 – 5:15 pm

    Your only answer to the point that bigger governments are better killing machines is to point out that you can go anywhere in the EU!

    How peculiar.

    You forget it is governments which in the first place restrict the very freedom of movement you applaud this newer bigger government for giving you.

    The bigger the government the better at oppression and killing it is. History is full of examples. Currently the USA and China are convincing examples. Can you give one example that contradicts this simple truth?

    Your pro-independence and pro-EU position is a contradiction. Your faith in the latest government mirrors your ever changing party allegiance.

    This is you: Down with the distant government! Long live the new distant government!

  85. YouKnowMyName
    16 Jul, 2014 – 6:12 pm

    Being anti-EU makes a troll? Jesus, that is the most idiotic thing on this thread. Well done.

    Not surprising then that you accept a neo liberal politician’s promise as evidence enough of the EU’s wondrousness.

  86. Craig
    “The only way to reverse the unsustainable wealth gap which has developed is extremely firm action by the state.”

    Are you quoting or paraphrasing Lenin?

    Of course the absolute pre-eminence of the state for, what centuries, is not in the least responsible for or anything to do with the world we live in.

  87. Miss Castello

    17 Jul, 2014 - 11:39 am

  88. Hi Craig ,
    I am a regular reader of your blog and most of the articles are excellent. Whilst I thought the above article was also excellent unfortunately I did not share. The reason being the overtly strong swearing at the end. This is only my personal opinion but it is also not the type of emphasis any of my FB friends ever use therefore I was uncomfortable passing it on. This is your blog and you have every right to say whatever you want but just thought I would give a little feedback. On the whole I have found your articles to be intriguing and informative.

  89. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    17 Jul, 2014 - 12:00 pm

    …mercantilism…

    Germany is extremely stupid. And doing rather better than the rest of the EU –

    http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2012/04/21/german-mercantilism-and-the-failure-of-the-eurozone-guest-post-by-heiner-flassbeck/

  90. I was born in England so I am neutral on the vote. I am however very concerned about the extent of media bias against the yes vote. In reality both sides have exaggerated their cases, therefore it is nice that Sir Tom Hunter is trying to have an accurate debate.

    One thing that would not surprise me would be North Sea Oil output being talked up after a No vote win. I am sure some technocality will be cited.

  91. Ba’al

    I genuinely enjoyed that article, though his “new mercantilism” has nothing to do with mercantilism that I can fathom.

  92. Still don’t see any agreement by you, Anon, to my proposed bet, and until you do so, IT IS NOT ON.

    Not going to allow the current uncertainty to allow you to win no matter what happens.

  93. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    17 Jul, 2014 - 2:57 pm

    his “new mercantilism” ..

    It’s almost subliminal. But what I take to be the gist is that Germany, by adopting a semi-independent economic policy (while at the same time following a neoliberal economic model) is in market terms, in a very good position. If it had accepted the same inflation controls as most of the rest of the EU, it wouldn’t be. It’s not playing the EU game, IOW.

    No need for border controls and tariffs if your neighbours are playing by different rules to you. Instant commercial advantage.

  94. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    17 Jul, 2014 - 3:01 pm

    Oh, but please note, German wages haven’t risen to echo the purring of the fat cats…I’m not saying it’s a good arrangement.

    http://thenextrecession.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/german-real-wages.png?w=450&h=250

  95. Tom, devo max is not on the ballot. the question is, “Should Scotland be an independent country”. The only options are YES and NO. For all the talk about more powers for Holyrood, There is nothing on the ballot about devo max. There is nothing to compel Westminster to grant devo max. The Scottish government wanted a 3rd question, which had to do with devo max or a some other guaranteed powers for Holyrood. Westminster nixed it. Why? Why are they making all these offers of more powers now? If we vote NO, more powers will not have been genuinely offered. IF Westminster grants them, which they will have no obligation to do, they may take them away after a time. If we vote YES, more powers are guaranteed. But Jim Callaghan’s daughter, Baroness Jay,tells us that independence is not guaranteed after a YES vote. We can certainly expect as many obstacles a possible to be put in the way. We may just have to have a UDI.

  96. “But you live in Scotland and I would truly be very surprised if you had encountered any hatred.”

    People here are no different to people everywhere else with all the same capacity to hate.

    Now back to the matter I mentioned earlier of the arming of the police in Scotland.

    http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/A-row-outside-McDonalds-Send-the-gun-squad-16072014.htm

    If the Westminster government had been responsible for that there would be uproar, if the bobbies on the beat in English towns were routinely armed there would be uproar so how come the political activists turn a blind eye to Scotland becoming an armed police state?

  97. “The idea they may lose their power, influence and above all their money, horrifies them.”

    I suspect that that motivation informs pretty much all the words and deeds of the people who rise to the top of politics in this country, not just on the Unionism/Separatism issue, but across the board.

  98. What about the timing of Gideon’s underwriting of a £230m loan to Ratcliffe’s Ineos, thus ‘guaranteeing 800 jobs’ according to the BBC this morning? Helpful for the Better Together campaign?

    ‘”Without doubt, this is one of the most important infrastructure projects of recent times in Scotland,” he said. Mr Ratcliffe said the benefits would not only come in the form of “protecting thousands of jobs in Scotland and across the UK” but boosting manufacturing.’

    So it’s public money underwritten by the government?

    ‘The loan guarantee enables it to raise financing on £230m through a public bond issue specifically to cover the building of the import facility and storage tank.’

    The tank is to store imported US shale gas.

    Financing secured to build Europe’s largest ethane store in Grangemouth
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-28331545

  99. “What about the timing of Gideon’s underwriting of a £230m loan to Ratcliffe’s Ineos, thus ‘guaranteeing 800 jobs’ according to the BBC this morning? Helpful for the Better Together campaign?”

    My opinion would be this is the result of the situation in Ukraine.

    Europe would like to reduce their dependence on Russian gas and America would like to make lots of money selling us their gas. It means building terminals to take it.

    Don’t think it has sod all to do with the referendum.

  100. Roderick Russell

    thanks for the link,

    Freedom Freedom Freedom brand on sale is nothing like the advertised product it purports to be, in fact it is rotten product that is getting shoved down our throat by the monopoly Freedom corporation.

  101. There appears to be a monstrous elephant (or two) in this particular room.

    First, the Scots seems to assume that – their wealth will be based upon their ownership of North Sea Oil; second, they seem to assume that the British (London) Treasury will still support the bail-out of Scottish banks.

    In the first instance; ALL the British taxpayers paid to open up the North Sea oil fields and ALL the British taxpayers deserve to reap the benefits. In the second instance, if the Scots want independence surely they should accept responsibility for their banks and repay the full amounts of the bail-outs to the British Treasury on the first day of independence and guarantee the deposits of other nationalities held in their banks.

    It appears to me that the Scots interpret everything as if they will be allowed to have their cake AND eat it!

    Bert.

  102. Miss Castello

    19 Jul, 2014 - 11:09 am

  103. If the people voting in the referendum on Scotland vote for independence, it will be in Britan’s interest that they remain in the EU, as a country friendly to Britain – with their own currency, like Sweden, unless they prefer the Euro.

  104. Still see non agreement by you, Anon, about the bet, so it’s off.

    I am giving up on this site where Craig and others pick and choose about what I can post, and can be deleted.

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