I watched Ross Kemp’s documentary on Paleastine yesterday and it was much better than I had expected. I have never watched any of his travel documentaries before – their advertising portrays them as “Our hard nut goes to see if other hard nuts are really as vicious as London East End gangsters”.
It is impossible, unless you are obscenely ill-motivated, to do a documentary in Gaza that does not leave you appalled at the plight of the Palestinian people there. But Kemp gave the Palestinians a much fairer and fuller hearing than I had expected, and while there was a great deal of editorial horror at the attitudes of Islamic terrorists and their supporters, it came over very strongly – and Kemp himself plainly “got”, that those attitudes were caused by the atrocities and indignities to which the Palestinians are subjected.
Which made Kemp’s documentary much more intelligent than Michael Portillo’s effort on Guantanamo. Portillo never for one moment questioned whether Islamic hatred of the West was in any sense caused or triggered. He seemed to accept that Guantanamo holds a core of “some 50” diehard terrorists who are intrinsically evil, and he agreed explicitly that they should be kept locked up forever even though there was no evidence against them that could stand up in court.
His glib “I am a politician and I know about tough decisions like abandoning legality” line was helped by two intellectual dishonesties. He never considered the causality of terrorism, and he did not mention the possibility that some of that “core” of fifty might be innocent. He described the moral dilemma as whether people you knew were guilty but could not prove it, should be locked up. Who says you know. they are guilty? I can tell you from first hand experience that a great deal of the War on Terror intelligence on individuals is woefully inaccurate and deliberatelly exagerrated.
Which Michael Portillo once seemed to understand:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article495277.ece
Portillo reserved his compassion for the Uighurs, because they were anti-communist, and for the British ex-detainees who had been tortured. There was one particularly unsavoury piece of editing when showing a UK conference, at which an ex-detainee was making a very emotional and harrowing point; the director then cut away to a shot of Moazzam Begg grinning merrily and apparently completely inappropriately at the point.
The impression was given that cut-away was contemporaneous, and it made Moazzam look very bad. I don’t believe the cut-away was contemporaneous and think this was a deliberate bit of BBC demonisation. I don’t think it was genuine because of sound discontinuity, because BBC documentary crews nowadays almost never have two cameras, and because I know Moazzam.
Shoddy work.
“WTC7 collapsed in 6.1 seconds as against 6.0 seconds freefall.”
Wrong. More like 14 seconds. Or more.
“Wrong. More like 14 seconds. Or more”.
That’s WTCs 1 and 2. My figure was for WTC7 and the figure is correct.
“Yes there were”.
Check it out. Before WTC was built, architects were constrained in how high buildings could go by the elevator problem. All the elevator shafts needed to service the building efficiently would take up all the space. The designers of WTC solved this problem by inventing a two-tier system. A large number of lifts took people 30-odd floors up to the Sky Lobby. Here they had to get out. A smaller number of shafts then serviced the higher floors.
That link was for the FBI lists again, released in 2006. They are not the official manifests from the airlines. It’s those that I’m interested in.
Re funerals: yes my mistake, there has been one, excluding the pilot. Barbara Olson of course, a very interesting name on the flight, particularly since her husband began telling 911 porkies within two hours of the event!
“That’s WTCs 1 and 2. My figure was for WTC7 and the figure is correct.”
It’s false.
You probably can’t even calculate the time it took for WTC7 to collapse because no film footage I know shows it falling all the way to the ground and none that I know of shows the interior progressive collapse.
But even of the collapse that is visible, the collapse time is far longer.
I don’t know who told you the building collapsed in 6.1 seconds.
“Check it out. Before WTC was built, architects were constrained in how high buildings could go by the elevator problem. All the elevator shafts needed to service the building efficiently would take up all the space. The designers of WTC solved this problem by inventing a two-tier system. A large number of lifts took people 30-odd floors up to the Sky Lobby. Here they had to get out. A smaller number of shafts then serviced the higher floors. ”
The service elevator shafts ran all the way from the bottom to the top.
Check it out.
“That link was for the FBI lists again, released in 2006. They are not the official manifests from the airlines. It’s those that I’m interested in.”
Did you download them?
“Re funerals: yes my mistake, there has been one, excluding the pilot. Barbara Olson of course, a very interesting name on the flight, particularly since her husband began telling 911 porkies within two hours of the event!”
Where on Earth do you get the idea that there were no funerals except for Barbara Olson and the pilot?
Whoever said this?
And what lies was Ted Olson telling?
“To bring down a building of WTC’s size, strength and complexity you need to target all the reinforced sections, including the foundations.” Says Gordon Ross.
He’s wrong.
MJ: What’s the point? These true-believers accept every word of Official Truth like wide-eyed, trusting children, even when the Official Truth is self-contradictory, full of holes, and even denounced by the authors of that Truth (such as Farmer’s denouncement of his own 911 Commission Report).
There’s a good proportion of the population who’ll believe _anything_ they’re told, particularly when it requires no personal sacrifice. For instance, “Larry”, “soab” et al don’t appear to be serving in the army right now, even though they think it’s absolutely necessary to prevent us being murdered in our beds. But like the chicken-hawks who call for war, it’s for others to do the fighting and dying.
They are very, very frightened, and need a big-daddy figure like Bush to keep them safe. And they’re ready to snap the right-arm salute to any authoritarian figure who wants it.
“no film footage I know shows it falling all the way to the ground”
Fair point. I was being too precise, without proper justification. Similarly you cannot say it is definitely false, only that it cannot be proved conclusively. Do I sense a bit of straw clutching here? We all know they fell at free-fall speed within a margin of a couple of percentage points and that is much too fast.
“The service elevator shafts ran all the way from the bottom to the top”
I’ll take your word for it. It would make sense to have a single service shaft that circumvented all the rest. Am I to take it then that your contention is that some unignited kerosene made its way down the service shaft, reached the steel foundations, ignited and was able to reduce them to vast molten pools of steel, even though kerosene can’t achieve anywhere near the temperature necessary? Do you really believe that? Do I sense more straw clutching here?
“Did you download them?”
I’ve seen them. Passenger lists “according to the documents we’ve obtained” it says. Fascinating. As I keep saying, the official manifests are all that matter and they’re nowhere to be seen.
“Where on Earth do you get the idea that there were no funerals except for Barbara Olson and the pilot?”
I’ve certainly not seen any reported but if you can find any then do let me know. Given all that DNA you’d expect a great flurry of them. Must have passed me by.
“And what lies was Ted Olson telling?”
A few hours after the event Olson telephoned CNN and told them his wife Barbara had phoned him – twice – from AA77 to say the plane had been hijacked. She called call-collect, he said, because she’d forgotten her credit card. She must therefore have been using the airphone in the arm of her seat, which would have required a credit card. She couldn’t have been using a cell-phone anyway because at the time of her call the plane was travelling too fast and at too high an altitude to get a connection. Anyway, it turns out that AA 757s didn’t even have airphones fitted! His story is therefore a complete fabrication. I suppose the trauma of losing a loved one can make you do strange things.
Interestingly it was this piece of fiction that gave us the box-cutters story and therefore the ban on carrying penknives on flights that has remained ever since. Funny old world.
The cynic in me reckons that if Olson can tell porkies like that on a day like that he’s perhaps not beyond burying an empty coffin.
“They are very, very frightened, and need a big-daddy figure like Bush to keep them safe. And they’re ready to snap the right-arm salute to any authoritarian figure who wants it.”
I voted for Obama, you silly person. Come to think of it, everything that you wrote there must also apply to Obama, because he doesn’t remotely entertain your silly fantasies.
Obama’s election was not a problem with the crazy American right wing, who serve as a genesis for about 90% of what MJ writes. As predicted, they immediately put him right in the middle of the conspiracy. Now his election was a problem for the left wing – in fact they believed that once elected, Obama would fall in line with their nutjob theories. As predicted, those folks have shut up now.
Tell me glenn, if you had “20 minutes with the President,” as fantasized by Charlie Sheen, what would you say?
angrysoba, thanks for taking this up! I got busy with work.
“Fair point. I was being too precise, without proper justification. Similarly you cannot say it is definitely false, only that it cannot be proved conclusively. Do I sense a bit of straw clutching here?”
No, the whole collapse of the building includes the descent of the East Penthouse which falls some four or five seconds before that of the facade of the building collapsing. The descent of the East Penthouse is the result of a progressive collapse of the interior which is then followed by the collapse of the West Penthouse and then finally the collapse of the buildings facade. This means all the interior columns have already gone leaving little resistance.
“I’ll take your word for it. It would make sense to have a single service shaft that circumvented all the rest. Am I to take it then that your contention is that some unignited kerosene made its way down the service shaft, reached the steel foundations, ignited and was able to reduce them to vast molten pools of steel, even though kerosene can’t achieve anywhere near the temperature necessary? Do you really believe that? Do I sense more straw clutching here?”
Do I sense a bit of STRWMANNING here? I never contended there were vast pools of molten steel in the rubble. You did! And to account for it you had to make up some elaborate and exotic and unheard of method of controlled demolition. So it is you clutching at straws and introducing your deus ex machina to explain parts of your theory which don’t make sense.
“I’ve seen them. Passenger lists “according to the documents we’ve obtained” it says. Fascinating. As I keep saying, the official manifests are all that matter and they’re nowhere to be seen.”
Don’t be an idiot! The airlines have never disputed these lists and there is corroborative photographic evidence to show they bought tickets, boarded the planes, were never seen again etc…
You’re like a birther who demands to see Obama’s birth certificate. Except you would be even more extreme and say without seeing it you couldn’t believe he was ever born!
“I’ve certainly not seen any reported but if you can find any then do let me know. Given all that DNA you’d expect a great flurry of them. Must have passed me by.”
MJ, you’re a weirdo! Why would greiving families trumpet their relatives’ funerals in the press? Are you now telling me there was no plane? No passengers? The plane disappeared?
What about the debris of the plane that I showed you from that Truther site?
“A few hours after the event Olson telephoned CNN and told them his wife Barbara had phoned him – twice – from AA77 to say the plane had been hijacked. She called call-collect, he said, because she’d forgotten her credit card. She must therefore have been using the airphone in the arm of her seat, which would have required a credit card. She couldn’t have been using a cell-phone anyway because at the time of her call the plane was travelling too fast and at too high an altitude to get a connection. Anyway, it turns out that AA 757s didn’t even have airphones fitted!”
I am guessing that David Ray Grifter is your source here. Guess what! He’s wrong! The senile old gimp made a mistake as even he has admitted.
I suppose you are going to tell me next that Ted Olson flashed Department of Justice phone records to show the phone calls went through, right?
Don’t bother, that was just another fiction by the great detective.
“Interestingly it was this piece of fiction that gave us the box-cutters story and therefore the ban on carrying penknives on flights that has remained ever since. Funny old world.”
You have provided no evidence it was fiction. As I said above about airphones.
“The cynic in me reckons that if Olson can tell porkies like that on a day like that he’s perhaps not beyond burying an empty coffin.”
Moron.
“angrysoba, thanks for taking this up! I got busy with work.”
Ah! But I thought this WAS work!
😉
“For instance, “Larry”, “soab” et al don’t appear to be serving in the army right now, even though they think it’s absolutely necessary to prevent us being murdered in our beds.”
What have I ever said about war? I am talking about your deeply silly nonsense. And while I would certainly hope most people aren’t murdered in their beds, I’ll make an exception for you Glenn?
😉
“Yet there have been no funerals for any of the passengers from AA77.”
You really are a SICK and STUPID piece of shit. Really, are you that stupid? Do you actually think that the friends and relatives had to go without funerals of the plane victims?
I have to keep in mind that 911 Truthers really are that dumb. And narcissistic. They believe that spouses had to do without funerals for their loved ones, but they’re just so stupid that they don’t even ask why, and it takes the Truthers to point this stuff out.
MJ,
Consult your local doctor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
“This means all the interior columns have already gone leaving little resistance”.
This raises the question of what, in the case of WTC7, caused all its interior columns to go? Being covered in dust from WTCs 1 and 2?
“I never contended there were vast pools of molten steel in the rubble”.
No, you denied it. I remember now.
“Why would greiving families trumpet their relatives’ funerals in the press?”
They get reported anyway, on local newspaper websites if not national ones. Links please.
“What about the debris of the plane that I showed you from that Truther site?”
I’ve pored over all the debris pics thanks. Nothing there that supports your belief that the plane must have been “exactly the same size and appearance as a regular 757”. I’m not saying wasn’t, only that the debris, such as it is, does not prove it. Then there’s the matter of that anomalous engine…
“am guessing that David Ray Grifter is your source here”
You omit to say which parts of my comments on the Olson phone calls you believe are wrong.
Re Olson’s phonecalls: found the problem. In 2001 AA 757s did have airphones, the service was discontinued in 2004. However, at the Moussaoui trial in 2006, the FBI produced records of calls from AA77 showing one call to Olson’s office, an unconnected call lasting 0 seconds.
MJ, tell me about the lack of funerals! I want to know more!
The lack of funerals (if this is case of course – links would be received with thanks) casts doubt on the Pentagon’s claim that it found body parts of all the passengers on AA77.
Good work MJ, so the cell phone call didn’t get through and Barbara Olson used the airphone. We know this because, as you said, her husband explained she called collect. No mystery then and Ted Olson didn’t lie.
As with many other things David Ray Griffin said, it was wrong and yet still gets repeated as truth online years after it has been debunked.
“I’ve pored over all the debris pics thanks. Nothing there that supports your belief that the plane must have been “exactly the same size and appearance as a regular 757″. ”
It was identified as a 757 by people on the ground. Thierry Meysan put some creatively edited quotes in his book to get the no-plane story up and running. Particularly his selection of Mike Walters to make it sound like it was a missile hitting the Pentagon. DRG picked up the same quote from Meyssan, etc…
http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins040902.asp
“Links please.”
I’m not your monkey. Why should I go looking for links to funerals of more passengers, you strange ghoulish man?
You say there were no funerals, you prove it.
MJ, if your father or mother or son or daughter were killed (by a terrorist, government, whatever), would you notice if a funeral were not held?
“her husband explained she called collect”
But she didn’t get through. The unconnected call was from the airphone. You can’t do call collect from an airphone. You need a credit card to activate it. A cell phone call wouldn’t register at all. No signal. Olson did lie.
“It was identified as a 757 by people on the ground”
Some eyewitnesses identified the AA livery. The incident happened so quickly however it is asking too much to expect a reliable identification of the plane type. Hence the large array of coflicting reports regarding its size, whether it was jet or turbo-prop etc etc.
“Why should I go looking for links to funerals of more passengers”
No, I haven’t seen any either.
Angrysoba,
I’ve been paying attention to these silly people for a while now and I’ve never heard this “no funerals” claim – that’s just the most awesome claim these silly gooses have ever made.
I mean, even if there were some super-secret conspiracy, wouldn’t funerals still be held?
It’s clear that, from their childhoods, people like MJ are unduly influenced by fictional TV and movies.
So let’s take a moment to recap. I challenged you to cite the evidence that corroborated the information conveniently set out in the holdalls. Cooraborative evidence is not the same as supporting evidence. It is stronger than that. Corroborative evidence stands up in its own right. It means in this instance evidence that is persuasive in itself without recourse to the holdall evidence. You manfully stepped up to the challenge, for which I am grateful.
What did you come up with?
1) DNA evidence and body parts (AA77 only).
Well, even if the DNA evidence is genuine, it can’t tell us whether or not the plane was hijacked and if so by whom.
2) The fact that the hijackers have never been seen again. The fact that they were known by the FBI and the CIA as suspicious and had phone calls traced by them to other cells
What hijackers? These comments presuppose the existence of hijackers, they do not prove it.
3) A couple of dodgy videos
It’s a bit more difficult than you thought, isn’t it? See how almost everything comes back to the holdalls in the end? Take those holdalls out of the equation and there’s precious little to establish that the planes were even hijacked, let alone the identity of the alleged hijackers.
Let me come to your assistance however. There is one body of evidence that does corroborate the holdall evidence but, oddly perhaps, you didn’t think to mention it.I however have recently alluded to it. It’s the phonecall evidence. It corroborates the holdall evidence because it is the only other evidence that suggests that the planes were hijacked and that the hijackers were middle-eastern in appearance.
Those phone calls eh? A can of worms as I’m sure you’re aware. Wanna go there?
Barbara Olson’s funeral
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-78278130.html
“It’s clear that, from their childhoods, people like MJ are unduly influenced by fictional TV and movies.”
I know. It’s ironic that we’re told we watch too much TV and are brainwashed by the media yet they derive their entire worldview from movies like the Matrix and fancy themselves as detectives like Poirot.
I think we might be a bit cruel trying to disabuse them of their fantasies sometimes.
And that funeral thing is something that I have never heard before either yet I debunked MJ’s original claim in about thirty seconds.
Angrysoba,
Yeah, this business with MJ denying that funerals were held reminds me of how funny the Loose Change boys thought of the death of Bernard Brown Jr.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-4Nf5vqHpA
“Take those holdalls out of the equation and there’s precious little to establish that the planes were even hijacked, let alone the identity of the alleged hijackers.”
No. It was obvious to ATC that the planes had been hijacked because they heard the hijackers speaking. It is unlikely they were talking to ATC but to the passengers. They also switched the transponders off. ATC called up through the chain of command and fighters were scrambled.
They didn’t wait until phone calls or to discover the hijackers personal belongings before they knew there was a hijack.
Then of course, the planes smashed into buildings and it was clear that people were onboard deliberately doing this. It should be elementary and it was before people started dreaming up these silly theories about remote controlled planes.
(I could be wrong about this but I seem to remember a story about George Tenet watching this unfold and saying something like, “Oh God! I hope it wasn’t those guys we were tracking.” Or something along those lines.
The phone calls are corroborative evidence and there is no reason for believing they were never made. Some of the calls on some of the flights WERE RECORDED as I am sure you know. And please don’t bother with all that “Why did he say “Mark Bingham”?” crap…