The fashionable left continues its attempt to co-opt and elevate gangsters and violent thieves by an extremely poor article in the Guardian on the Duggan shooting. The Guardian acknowledge that Duggan had a gun, and that it was loaded, but call him “unarmed” on the basis that it was in a shoebox. The police, incidentally, deny that.
It is still completely beyond me why so many commenters on this blog seek to conflate the genuine problems police confront as they are increasingly faced with violent armed criminals, with the genuinely indefensible police actions in cases like their killing of Jean Charles De Menezes. Refusal to acknowledge the difference devalues the arguments around what is and is not reasonable for the police to do. Duggan is not De Menezes. The police were quite right to believe that Duggan was armed. Something went wrong in that Duggan was shot – but it was not an action without reason.
At a banal level, I had a really horrible journey down from St Andrews yesterday on a very overcrowded East Coast train, with the now routine problem of people sitting on the floor between coaches. In the coach which I was in, two tables of young people were listening to extremely loud music on a boombox. It really was very unpleasant, and prevented others from sleeping, reading etc. Two or three passengers asked them to turn it down, which they would do for perhaps thirty seconds and then turn it right up again. One notably old lady who had the misfortune to be seated back to back with them was called a “stupid old cow”. The train staff seemed cowed and resorted to treating it all as a big joke. I tried to reason with them and got “Fuck off fat man” for my pains.
They were wearing sportswear. I pondered what a pity it was that they did not kick the old lady to death and go out and smash some more shop windows and steal some more sportswear. Then commenters on this blog could have explained to me they were an enlightened part of the revolutionary vanguard.
wendy, libya is the “new” Dubai.
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“IPCC statement re story published in The Guardian in relation to the investigation into the death of Mark Duggan
19 November 2011
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“The IPCC believes the headline on an article published in The Guardian in connection with the investigation into the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan is misleading, speculative and wholly irresponsible.”
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http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_191111_metduggan.aspx
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Just noticed that on the medialens message board.
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Craig, when has the IPCC ever reacted, like a bolt of lightening.
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I’m not defending the Guardian.
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IPCC, don’t they normally take months to think about things and make some decision that isn’t upsetting?
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Despite obvious & tragic differences, the deaths of Duggan & Menezes have one paradoxical factor in common. Standard operating procedure.
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Specialist firearms units such as CO19 have for decades operated a de facto shoot-to-kill policy. Though for obvious reasons never publicly acknowledged, training is designed to ensure in effect nothing less. The logic being that anything less (i.e. a merely wounded target) needlessly endangers officers’ lives.
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This is why such killings are by no means uncommon — be it the unarmed man in Hackney brandishing a chair-leg, or the unarmed man in Sussex, for example, who was naked at time of death, having just jumped out of bed.
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The same logic requires dumdum (expanding) bullets, use of which has been banned in warfare ever since the Hague Convention of 1899, because of their devastating effect on the human body — the very reason units such as CO19 use them. And why multiple shots are fired, preferably at close range.
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From this perspective (that of a special forces unit), whether Duggan was in actuality armed acquires moral & practical significance only after the event. Training ensures such units proceed on the assumption that anybody, once targeted, is armed & is prepared to kill, particularly if merely injured. This is why the completely innocent Jean Charles de Menezes died such a gruesome & barbaric death — to the apparent utter horror & disgust of fellow Tube passengers.
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The following documentary clip, despite its Yard Press Bureau framing, provides a graphic indication — 1.20 mins in — of the very likely physical circumstances seconds before Duggan’s death:
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http://bit.ly/nePowD
Sorry, the G has changed it’s headline,
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1321741459.html
the police can leak what ever, the media reports it as the truth.
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looks very suspect to me.
I was going to put this on the “NHS Privatisation” thread but its so full of spam and porn posts it would get lost!!!.
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“The average American reads on a 6th to 8th grade level, something that the insurance industry is well-aware of. And because of this, the industry writes the literature regarding their policies on a collegiate level, making it virtually impossible for the vast majority of Americans to even comprehend, so they end up buying policies that they don’t even need. That’s just one of the dirty tricks that the industry is playing on American consumers, and Sam Seder discusses even more shady tactics by the insurance industry with Wendell Potter, author of the book “Deadly Spin.””
http://www.youtube.com/user/golefttv#p/u/0/yKTh3yPZitI
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Coming to the UK very soon, in a very big way.
IPCC object to Guardian headline on Duggan. Pathetic Guardian rolls over and headline changed. Result for IPCC.
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http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1321741459.html
Shirley we all know the Guardian is anything but, Mary?
I-International
P-Pederasts
C-Confirmation
C-Communion
re mysterious ‘instant’ & possibly unparalleled IPPC pressure on Guardian to change headline:
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Not unreasonable to suppose, in view of the devastating social explosion sparked by the apparent circumstances of Duggan’s death, that the Home Office concluded, & Cameron concurred, that the issue & it’s reporting had become an issue of national security & needs to be handled accordingly.
Hmm. A bit more left-baiting, perchance, to re-establish credibility among the media classes? What an unkind thought! However – any time scum and riff-raff happens to be of an ethnic persuasion, it hardly is a matter with which to blame the Left with any real justification. This is the sort of thing the Mail does all the time.
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You can’t criticise an “ethnic” bunch of thugs and tossers without incurring tut-tuts from the left? Seriously? I’m unashamedly to the left, and find no problem denouncing toe-rags whatever they look like.
I also see semi suicidal bikers riding like absolute numpties quite often, and feel no obligation to apologise for them either.
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Not everyone on the Left, even the “fashionable left” whatever that is, gives the bottom layer of society a pass no matter what. I imagine Cameron’s Bullingdon boys would have got away with the same, had they deigned to use public transport between smashing up restaurants – people are afraid of thuggish groups of men and don’t like to put themselves on the line.
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A few years ago on the London Underground, we heard yells from outside the carriage the train being delayed at Ealing Common. It was quickly obvious that a guy was being robbed by three yoofs, so I engaged the support of another able-bodied bloke to help him. As soon as we stepped onto the platform they scarpered, mouthing insults. The victim complained his mobile had been stolen and wanted us to go after them. We declined. Cowardly? Maybe, however – while I’d stick my neck out for this victim, even if the thugs might pull a knife – I’m buggered if I’d risk it for his mobile.
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The one time I’ve been beaten up in the street was many years back, by a gang of Nazi skinheads who jumped me as I waited at a bus-stop. Had my hands in my pockets, and was looking at the ground, deep in contemplation of the film Gandhi I’d just seen in the cinema. They grabbed my hair (which was quite long at the time), trying to pull me onto the ground while giving a good kicking to the head and face. Quite nasty being set upon by several of them in this fashion. Do I loathe Nazi skinhead thugs and cowards as a result? You betcha. And denounce leftists for sympathy concerning the poverty and ignorance that brought these Nazi skinheads about? Err… no.
‘it’s’ — these instant ‘spell-checkers’ will insist on inserting grocer’s commas at every opportunity. Grrr.
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PS: My longer & perhaps more germane comment re Duggan case still refuses to appear, despite 3 or 4 vain attempts to post over a period of 3 hours or more. And despite email to Craig to see if he can throw any light on mystery of its non-appearance.
I find it quite extraordinary that Saif Gaddafi wasn’t picked up and sent to the ICC. I read there were negotiations going on. He would have known that the ICC was his safest bet.
Moreover, it would have been extraordinary that British intelligence didn’t know where he was. Now he’s being served up on a plate. The timing’s quite interesting; the Libyan people are getting sick of having no money with the failure of the West to release their frozen assets. The trial would no doubt prove a major distraction. It would also avoid letting Gaddafi divulge at the ICC the many secrets the British government would rather he didn’t.
So is our great government engineering events in Libya.
There seems to me little doubt that they were responsible for the death of Gaddafi senior, their bosom buddy who they armed to the hilt giving him a free hand in the massacre of his citizens. But let’s look at the events leading up to Gaddafi’s death.
‘A woman of British and Kenyan extraction involved in the security field has disclosed that she was asked to recruit a private force for work in Libya by an oil company as the conflict reached its violent climax, The Independent has learnt.’
The New Age goes further:
‘Interviews for the extraction operations were conducted on August 17 at the Balalaika Hotel in Sandton by Sarah Penfold, who operates from Kenya for a British mercenary outfit.’
It’s interesting to note that initially the woman couldn’t be named for legal reasons.
The New Age states;
‘Some of the South Africans involved in Libya are believed to be veterans of a failed attempt to overthrow the dictator of Equatorial Guinea in the “Wonga Coup”, led by former SAS officer Simon Mann 11 years ago.
Cruise Steyl, a former business partner of Sir Mark Thatcher and, with him, involved in the coup plot, was contacted two days after Gaddafi’s death and asked whether he would be prepared to help evacuate a group of stranded South African mercenaries from Libya.
Mr Steyl, an experienced pilot, said: “The call came on Saturday evening and I was told just how urgent the whole situation was and a fair amount of money was on offer. But what happened in Equatorial Guinea was a while ago, I have my own business now and I don’t want that to get involved in that kind of activity.”’
According to City Press:
‘Speaking to one of the South African operators who was at Gaddafi’s side and a senior source in the intelligence world, City Press discovered the mercenaries were probably also misled into thinking they were helping Gaddafi.
Their involvement was really only part of a larger plan to capture Gaddafi, it now appears.’
City Press has discovered there was no request to the South African authorities to bring Gaddafi, a fugitive from the International Criminal Court, here.
It would never have been allowed, a reliable government source said.
Nato launched its attack on Gaddafi with deadly precision, and Odendaal believes someone “sold them out”.
I suspect it was so precise that Gaddafi was deliberately left alive to make sure the Libyans killed him.
Some thoughts on your travel experience. I speak as someone who has worked on the railways for eleven years. On the occasions when I have intervened to diffuse or stop some immature showoffs ruining other people’s journey I have sometimes succeeded and sometimes been met with nasty abuse. Some commentators seem to think calling the police is the answer. In the London area I can assure you that this is a complete waste of time. In the West country where I now work it can sometimes be effective although the British Transport Police don’t like to stay out late. Back to London, the BTP there are lazy, thick and incompetent (generally). In my experience they will take at least an hour to respond to a call and will quite often go to the wrong destination. I spent two hours once giving a statement to one of their plods because he could not string a sentence together or work the computer. Whilst at the station I witnessed them deliberately ignoring people calling at their door buzzer and having a good old snigger about it. However, I do not agree that the behaviour of passengers is the responsability of staff or police. Rail transport is public transport. Just because it has been “privatized” does not change this. Trains are in effect public spaces in the same way that streets and parks etc are. Everyone has a responsability to help, that is part of the concept of society. Why should a member of rail staff risk their personal safety when those around are busy hiding behind their newspapers. We just have to accept that the concept of civility is an endangered concept and if we value it start by setting an example and if we are parents then make sure our own offspring aren’t part of the problem.
Angus you raving clitoris – Rangers arseholes = 0 Celtic = 7
Interesting – lotta new (lamo) trolls here. Shows that Craig is hitting some runs.
Clanger – my faith in humanity is saved – Godspeed!
Ruth – Gadfly was an old-fashioned CIA construct – hope that helps.
I thought the IPCC / Guardian posts above were saying ‘PCC’ until I followed the links. What the bloody hell is the Police watchdog doing trying to control the press?
I think the point people are making is that the police have shown themselves as not to be trusted. Unfair on the good, hard-working coppers no doubt (and I’m sure there are many), but it’s still a fact that the current reputation of the police is very low indeed, and with good reason.
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And don’t get me started on trains. We still subsidize the railway network, and it’s still absolutely disgraceful. Privatization has failed, as we know it would, but to suggest so seems to be verboten in political circles. It seems to me that there are two decent routes: Edinburgh to London, and Edinburgh to Glasgow. And the private sector doesn’t really care about the rest, no money in it, is there?
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I remain baffled as to why people still seem to think that the private sector is inherently more efficient; the facts and the evidence don’t support the basic premise, but it is still stated as axiomatic that private = good, public = bad. Weird. I’m in Australia, and I laugh at the Aussie complaints about their railways. They don’t know they are born.
I thought the IPCC / Guardian posts above were saying ‘PCC’ until I followed the links. What the bloody hell is the Police watchdog doing trying to control the press?
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What press? They are all afraid of being fired.
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No such thing as a “police watchdog”
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Don’t you get it FFS??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is ALL funny handshakes and nepotism. All about BOAZ.
Rail rage: is our train system going off the rails?
By Judith Duffy
19 Nov 2011
WHEN it comes to the demands of railway passengers, the wish list seems simple enough: reliable, punctual and frequent trains offering good value for money – and the ability to secure a seat.
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Yet plans unveiled last week for a major overhaul of Scotland’s railways set out the possibility of fares soaring ahead of inflation, and of passengers being forced to stand.
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The proposals in the Rail 2014 consultation document by Transport Scotland, an agency of the Scottish Government, triggered an outcry. The Labour Party said that a petition against the proposals had already attracted around 4000 signatures. Many of those are from the north of Scotland, where passengers could face the loss of overnight sleeper services to London, as well as having to change at Edinburgh for cross-border journeys.
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Scotland’s railways are in the spotlight because the current contract provided by ScotRail for passenger services, as well as the funding arrangements for Network Rail (which owns and operates the railway infrastructure), will be up for renewal in three years.
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Demand for rail services has increased by more than 25% over the past seven years. It is predicted to continue to rise by as much as 115% in the Edinburgh area and 40% in the Glasgow conurbation.
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Robert Samson of the consumer watchdog Passenger Focus Scotland said investment in rail travel in recent years had made it a more attractive option for travellers. Rising fuel costs could mean even more drivers opting for the train.
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http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rail-rage-is-our-train-system-going-off-the-rails-1.1135846?11461
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You have to sign in to read the whole piece. A marketing ploy by Newsquest/Gannett (US) to get personal info.
Same paper
Government lays groundwork for U-turn over rail reforms
DAMIEN HENDERSON and Robbie Dinwoodie
17 Nov 2011
THE Scottish Government has laid the groundwork for an embarrassing U-turn on rail reform following a furore over proposals to hike fares, increase some journey times and force passengers to stand for longer periods.
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Alex Salmond’s spokesman insisted a consultation launched by government agency Transport Scotland on Tuesday “did not reflect ministerial thinking” but was part of an “open consultation” process.
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“Ministerial views and decisions will come in the light of the consultation exercise,” he said.
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Speaking during a regular press briefing in Holyrood, the spokesman made the distinction between a consultation such as the one on legalising same-sex marriage, in which at the outset the minister involved let it be known that she was “minded to do so”, and an open consultation where no position is yet taken.
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That view was rejected by opposition parties who said Transport Scotland is an agency directly answerable to ministers and the consultation, which set out a series of options, had been endorsed with a forward by Infrastructure Secretary Alex Neil and transport minister, Keith Brown.
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Lewis Macdonald, transport spokesman for Labour, said: “It’s absolute Alice in Wonderland stuff. They’ve put out a consultation full of crackpot ideas, everyone responding has said you must be off your trolley and now they’re trying to pretend it’s not them after all. It’s pure fantasy.”
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The LibDems said the consultation had been skewed by the SNP’s focus on an independence referendum, which had led it to reject longer train franchises due to uncertainty over “constitutional changes”.
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A spokeswoman for Transport Scotland said yesterday the government had an “unswerving commitment” to Scotland’s railways. “The range of questions and options in the consultation does not reflect the position of ministers precisely because it is a consultation, and competing options are suggested on different points, such as sleeper services,” she said.
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http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/government-lays-groundwork-for-u-turn-over-rail-reforms-1.1135305
I took a long coach ride from London tonight, and had to deal with a couple of drunken skinheads. As usual, I installed myself in the corner of the back row. A black man settled on the other side. Then these DM-booted thugs came up and sat between us, chanting Millwall slogans. They were provocative rather than malevolent. They got very personal about the black guy and a girl sitting in front of them, who each responded nervously. Then they turned their attention to me. I was relaxed but not in a mood for banter, and told them so in a firm avuncular tone. After a snidey aside about me being annoyed and uncooperative, they shut up. Eventually they fell asleep. When I woke them up at their stop, they were like sleepy little boys. Weird.
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I don’t quite understand why I got that kind of respect. I could easily have become a target. But I have no complaints with how it panned out.
A commentary on Scottish affairs including the fact that BBC Scotland is shutting down the facility for political comment on its website.
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BBC Scotland – dead and dying
Sunday, 20 November 2011 00:34 13 Comments By G.A.Ponsonby
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It’s been an interesting week in Scottish politics; The Unionists continued with the ‘investment uncertainty’ line whilst Amazon and Michelin opted for investment certainty.
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Amazon’s new facility in Fife is the size of fourteen football pitches. In a first for BBC Scotland the broadcaster paid scant attention to a Scottish story with a football angle.
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Meanwhile, Michael Moore, the man who wanted the post of Scottish Secretary abolished to save money, spent even more money creating a Scottish business group.
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Why? Well your guess is as good as mine. Moore seems to have spent the last fortnight telling anyone who will listen that nobody will invest in Scotland until the independence referendum is out of the way.
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Perhaps Moore’s business group are going to issue regular monthly press statements confirming that they are certain about being uncertain. Then Moore can cite them as proof of the uncertainty he is certain about.
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One thing is certain though, as sure as night follows day the constitutional debate will receive the usual coverage from BBC Scotland as we have come to expect. The tabloidisation of the BBC in Scotland continues unabated.
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http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/3701-bbc-scotland-dead-and-dying.html
“The fashionable left continues its attempt to co-opt and elevate gangsters and violent thieves”
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You don’t half talk a lot of balls sometimes. No-one’s elevating him. Gangsters and thieves don’t have to be elevated to have the right to life.
I’m sorry Craig, but a hidden gun in a shoe box in the same car as Duggan does not make me think that this guy was armed. If he had had a gun in his hand then by all means shooting could have been appropriate.
But since it was hidden in a shoe box and the police could not have seen it or felt threatened by it, then shooting this poor man through the chest at close range was over the top and wrong.Murder !
It cannot be compared to the brutality of the Menendez killing at Stockwell, because that man took 6 or 7 bullets to the head at point blank range and it was most definitely premeditated.
The man maybe was a small time hoodlum but he was shot first and they asked questions later.A little too wild west for my liking.
Vikram Dodd thinks David Kelly committed suicide – or Vikram Dodd thinks he has to write that so as to fit in with the mainstream (Guardian).
Ruth, that is fascinating, thanks. Yes, I think it will be a kangaroo court. And yes, I think this is being engineered by NATO. I suspect he will be tried and executed in Libya; the NTC spokesmen are already saying that the charges will carry the death penalty. Seems like they’ve decided already. But they’ll do it through a ‘process’ to avoid negative PR (sodomising Islamist snuff movies). At various times, Saif Gaddafi worked with/for MI6 and was also a target for MI6. “Sarah Penfold, who works in security…” Aye-aye. If one has to invent the name for a fictional deep-English spy, ‘Sarah Penfold’ would be perfect – so perfect, almost like an anagram, you probably would hesitate to use it. Ah, Kenya.
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“Based in Nairobi, Ms Penfold – an ‘executive protection and security specialist’ – has frequently been associated with private forces working in Africa.”
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Is she MI6 (or ‘ex’-MI6)?
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057157/Gaddafi-doomed-getaway-linked-Briton-Sarah-Penfold-son-Saif-hides-Sahara.html
Ruth, that is fascinating, thanks. Yes, I think it will be a kangaroo court. And yes, I think this is being engineered by NATO. I suspect he will be tried and executed in Libya; the NTC spokesmen are already saying that the charges will carry the death penalty. Seems like they’ve decided already. But they’ll do it through a ‘process’ to avoid negative PR (sodomising Islamist snuff movies). At various times, Saif Gaddafi worked with/for MI6 and was also a target for MI6. “Sarah Penfold, who works in security…” Aye-aye. If one has to invent the name for a fictional deep-English spy, ‘Sarah Penfold’ would be perfect – so perfect, almost like an anagram, you probably would hesitate to use it. Ah, Kenya.
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“Based in Nairobi, Ms Penfold – an ‘executive protection and security specialist’ – has frequently been associated with private forces working in Africa.”
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Is she MI6 (or ‘ex’-MI6)?
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057157/Gaddafi-doomed-getaway-linked-Briton-Sarah-Penfold-son-Saif-hides-Sahara.html
Uncle Nextus, perhaps it was the three-piece suit. It makes the lower orders nervous.
Felix Is there a link to something new he has written? He has always taken the establishment line.