The fashionable left continues its attempt to co-opt and elevate gangsters and violent thieves by an extremely poor article in the Guardian on the Duggan shooting. The Guardian acknowledge that Duggan had a gun, and that it was loaded, but call him “unarmed” on the basis that it was in a shoebox. The police, incidentally, deny that.
It is still completely beyond me why so many commenters on this blog seek to conflate the genuine problems police confront as they are increasingly faced with violent armed criminals, with the genuinely indefensible police actions in cases like their killing of Jean Charles De Menezes. Refusal to acknowledge the difference devalues the arguments around what is and is not reasonable for the police to do. Duggan is not De Menezes. The police were quite right to believe that Duggan was armed. Something went wrong in that Duggan was shot – but it was not an action without reason.
At a banal level, I had a really horrible journey down from St Andrews yesterday on a very overcrowded East Coast train, with the now routine problem of people sitting on the floor between coaches. In the coach which I was in, two tables of young people were listening to extremely loud music on a boombox. It really was very unpleasant, and prevented others from sleeping, reading etc. Two or three passengers asked them to turn it down, which they would do for perhaps thirty seconds and then turn it right up again. One notably old lady who had the misfortune to be seated back to back with them was called a “stupid old cow”. The train staff seemed cowed and resorted to treating it all as a big joke. I tried to reason with them and got “Fuck off fat man” for my pains.
They were wearing sportswear. I pondered what a pity it was that they did not kick the old lady to death and go out and smash some more shop windows and steal some more sportswear. Then commenters on this blog could have explained to me they were an enlightened part of the revolutionary vanguard.
Absolutely spot on.
I sympathise with your plight Craig.
Isn’t that what the British Transport Police are for though?
You’d think the guards could’ve called aead and got them booted off.
I think the key point is that the police or IPCC seem to have put out a false statement saying that Duggan fired, and it’s right to take them up on this. As to what Mark Duggan was like, I’ve heard several versions including this one from someone who knew him http://thefriend.org/article/when-is-enough-enough/ (scroll down – I think it’s free to view) and am prepared to accept that, like most people, he was not consistent in his behaviour. (The article I refer to also raises a further question about the police and/or media behaviour.)
Sorry to hear about your unpleasant train journey. I’ve had a few of these, experiencing such attitudes from people from a range of classes, the worst being a group of posh racists who abused the train staff and got several nervous passengers laughing defensively along with them – an occasion about which I still feel guilty because I said nothing, telling myself that an intervention could make it even worse for the train guard. I’ve since made a resolution to speak up more frequently in future when other people are being abused and threatened – and congratulations on doing so in trying circumstances.
As usual, your reasoning is spot on regarding the first part, Craig. However, I think the reason many people feel the need to ‘defend’ Duggan is the prevailing attitude that he deserved to die for the crime of carrying a gun. During the height of the riots I frequently heard this attitude applied to rioters too – “why don’t the police just shoot them?” “anyone out after 10pm should be shot” etc. Whilst important to acknowledge that the Police face a difficult task in dealing with the very real problem of firearms it is vital that we don’t hand the power of the judiciary to frightened officers on the streets.
Hi,
I think it comes down to crying wolf.
How many times have there been contested incidents involving armed police, with no one outside the immediate friends/families caring to make an issue, and then it started to became noticeable how few consequences there were for a cop wrongfully killing fellow citizens, and then the arrogance of a mass strike if even one such armed-cop was potentially punished for such an incident.
Last time I checked, killing a person in the back or a person not holding a gun aimed at someone, was wrong, but I’m naive.
—
As for trains, I’ve faced the same problem. Peer pressure of other passengers doesn’t work if there’s too much of them in one group, but you can bet the rail staff wouldn’t have the same reticence if it was about a wrong ticket or reservation even. It is what the BTP are for, as well as the power that any train staff have of removing passengers from the train for disruptive behavior after warnings before their journey has finished.
—
Kind regards,
MN
Good points craig, perhaps its the press or the Police PR department that create another problem: In the Raol Moat and Duggan cases the news blatantly lied over some detail and insulted the intelligence of the viewers- “a bullet fired by Duggan was stopped by a Police radio…” In the case of Raol Moat the Police produced 2 magazines of bullets claiming they’d found that Mr Moat stiLl had plenty of ammunition. He had a shotgun (completely different rounds!) Why bother? Who makes this crap up? Sloppy reporting must stop! Doh, just scrolled up- darn phones- thank you Kath- I’m with you on this!
Sorry to say, but this article is exactly why I have a serious issue reading this blog.
Craig does exemplary and important work providing insight that few other people are inclined to provide, and even less are able to, such as the excellent digging on Fox/Werrity or the discussions on maritime law around the israeli blockade of palestine to cite but two examples, but he then frequently does his best to insult the readership by outrageously misquoting them, with inflammatory and misrepresentative crap such as the utter nonsense of the last paragraph of this article.
I am sorry to criticise Craig, who has contributed a million times more value than me to the debate on the issues here, but it’s not the first time it’s happened.
Buy a pair of industrial ear protectors (as worn by pneumatic drill operators), and never travel by public transport without them.
Craig, I am glad you said that as I was worried I was in a minority one. I am not right wing and don’t trust the Police as far as I could throw them.
The Guardian article just deflects and deflates real, justifiable and important criticism of the Police.
I thought that the Guardian would have realised that but then, why wouldn’t they?
Hey fatso, I ain’t seen no comments here like what you is sayin’, innit.
I had just read this:
.
“The Guardian said a gun collected by Mr Duggan earlier in the day was recovered 10 to 14ft away, on the other side of a low fence from his body, and that he was killed outside the vehicle he was travelling in, after a police marksman fired twice.”
http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2011/1119/world/man-not-armed-when-shot-by-police-528969.html
.
It goes on to say:
IPCC commissioner Sarah Green said: “Our investigation will consider whether all investigative lines were promptly identified and acted upon by officers from the Metropolitan Police Service and to what extent, if any, the conduct of this investigation may have impacted on the supply of the firearm found at the scene of the shooting of Mark Duggan.”
What on earth does that mean??
You say, Craig, “Something went wrong in that Duggan was shot” – you betcha something went wrong, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with people highlighting that fact here, no matter what their politics are. WTF is stupid about it? “Stupid” is a word you have used rather regularly on this blog in reference to your commenters, and frankly it’s putting me (and probably others) off.
So you had a horrible train journey. So have we all, at one time or another.
I’m with you on this, as yet unexplained incident. The gun was found outside the car, however it got there and he was killed with two shots.
This did not start the riot, the folow on reaction of 15 riot officers jumping a 16 year old girl did. Far from getting all heated over the pro and cons, we will get an inquiery in a few years/decades, when everyone has forgotten about it.
As for the train fiasco, this is normal now, I had to stand for a long while whilst going up to ‘Doune the rabit hole last year’ because somebody had double booked the seat, could not bare the ticket inspector moving on the elderly lady.
Sadly nobody dares to put their head over the paraphet. If some six men would have stood up and took the boom box away for the duration of their travel, opposing them in unison, they would have not bothered to bad mouth you, but this is not done in britain, nobody gives a flying f…
Your lucky I was not with you, because there would have been one allmighty heap, can’t stand old ladies being harrassed and pissed about by scrots like that.
The problem is that that stupid old cow wasn’t givin them like respect.
.
I completely agree with you Craig and I think that the situation you describe is all too common. It was rather painful watching commenters here tie themselves in knots trying to argue that a Malaysian exchange student was savagely beaten and then robbed by poor little deprived youth who only want global warming to stop and to be able to go to university or some other such crap.
Here you are Craig. Speak to their ‘top team’ next Tuesday.
http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/about-us/latest-news1/talk-with-the-east-coast-top-team/
.
Ask for Justine Greening, Secretary of State for Transport. The Dept for Transport is the ‘owner’ of East Coast when National Express pulled out. What a bloody shambles. Bring back the Fat Controller.
.
{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directly_Operated_Railways}
{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Coast_(train_operating_company)}
.
Supposedly in charge but leaving in December. She replaced a Karen Boswell. {http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/east-coast-trains-directly-operated-railways-chairman/}
.
All very ‘interim’
Following Elaine’s departure, Michael Holden will become Chairman of East Coast, and Doug Sutherland will become Non-Executive Chairman of Directly Operated Railways. Michael and Doug will undertake these roles on an interim basis until discussions with the Department for Transport on filling the positions permanently are concluded.
Ref Duggan the police lied and then badly mishandled the aftermath at the police station where a crowd including his family had gathered. I have no time for gangsters either but there is little or no confidence in the IPCC or the Met.
Sorry, but I don’t like the police killing people unless they are actually in danger of being killed themselves and there’s no other way to stop it. That was not the case here. If Blair Peach, J C de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson and a number of other victims whose names I forget had not been killed; if the police when not armed with guns but with sticks and sprays did not routinely misuse those sticks and sprays to harm people for no reason; if the police did not routinely beat slap punch and kick people for no reason; if the police did not use unnecessary force as a matter of course; if they did not routinely break people’s doors down at 4 am instead of ringing the bell at a reasonable hour, when there is no reason to expect the person is about to abscond; if the IPCC were in fact independent; if the police did not routinely lie when something “goes wrong” as they lied about de Menezes, Tomlinson and Duggan, then I might be more understanding about the Duggan case.
.
As it stands, they get no sympathy from me. They’re a bunch of thugs. Complaining about Duggan doesn’t cheapen de Menezes – they thought Duggan had a gun on him. They thought wrong. They thought de Menezes was a suicide bomber. They thought wrong. We know enough about the de Menezes case to know that it was inexcusably stupid of the police to behave as they did. We don’t know enough about the Duggan case yet, but I’m not giving them the benefit of the doubt.
.
http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/
Firstly re bad inconsiderate behaviour I have used trains during summer periods often in Italy – there too in my experience some people are incredibly inconsiderate – obviously I do not mean everyone of course not.
Re Mark Duggan – the Guardian item you refer to is indeed murkey and no one should read thinking it clearly shows that Duggan was leading a blameless existance – absolutely not. OPERATION TRIDENT was established to meet very very serious escalating crime. On the other hand it is not enough to simply instead posit the Menezes police murder. Both seem to me to show that police cannot be taken as honest – just look at the Tomlinson hocus pocus.
Something else that is relevant – a day or two ago the London Evening Standard alone reported that the IPCC had now recommended that armed police operational tactics have got to be reviewed because of deaths that could have been prevented – we are talking here about the Flying Squad etc. This is a matter that has had barely any attention for several decades. The IPCC recommendation can be viewed on the IPCC website. Curious that a development like this gets picked up only but briefly in one news outlet – I would have thought an informed considered historical feature on this development would have been very useful – I have written to the IPCC previously about this and to Lambeth Police Community Consultative Group in the past year or so and got zero response.
Saif al-Islam has just been captured. A friend’s e mail was sent to Hague and FCO.
.
>I take it that the British Government and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will do >all in their power to make sure Colonel Quaddafi’s son is not lynched and killed as his >father and brother were. Shame was poured for all time.
.
>Those acts were not undertaken by a “despotic dictator” but in our name by those the UK >and US has supported.
.
>NO MORE. PLEASE.
.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/19/saif-al-islam-gaddafi-captured
I wish there were more left wingers like you around Craig.
Along with the good folks at Spiked and Harry’s Place, you’re amongst the few with whom I feel I can – as a right-wing libertarian – have civilised disagreements with.
No doubt being called “fat man” wasn’t nice, but at least it sounds like you’re well-fed!
There has been a deliberate policy to undermine the youth of this country Enoch Powell tried to warn us and they attacked him.
“It was rather painful watching commenters here tie themselves in knots trying to argue that a Malaysian exchange student was savagely beaten and then robbed by poor little deprived youth who only want global warming to stop ..”
.
Are you referring to the video that emerged on Youtube of yobs rifling his back pack after supposedly helping him?
I saw no such comments. Post the quotes, Angry, with date and thread.
“I wish there were more left wingers like you around Craig.”
.
I believe Craig stated very clearly here in the past that he is not a left-winger? I might be wrong.
Harry’s Place is mentioned earlier. Why? If this muck is typical of the site and the comments then best not to mention it here again. A low level version of Guido Fawkes.
.
http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/19/hope-not-hate-and-bradford-tuc-pull-the-plug-on-gilad-atzmon/
.
kevin
19 November 2011, 11:52 am
I mentioned it a long time ago.
If you want to shut up this scum Atzmon once and for all.
KILL HIS ABILITY TO PERFORM.
and he is finished.
Who wants to hear a Nazi playing Jazz.
That should be the slogan.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2063552/Kingsbury-stabbing-4-police-officers-injured-man-goes-berserk-butchers-knife.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
“… Complaining about Duggan doesn’t cheapen de Menezes – they thought Duggan had a gun on him. They thought wrong. They thought de Menezes was a suicide bomber. They thought wrong…”
I don’t think for a moment that they thought Duggan had a gun with him. I doubt that he did and suspect that the gun on the scene was brought there by the police. And if you don’t think that these signs, reminiscent of late Weimar policing, are important then you are simply an angry reactionary.
As to the people on the train, may I recommend that you spend a few hours with “Change in the Village” by George Bourne, published in 1912.
The policed lied. They could have easily said there was some confusion but it was believed Duggan was armed. Instead someone from the police leaked a story to, I beleive the Telegraph, claiming a policeman had been shot at with a bullet lodged in his radio which saved his life. Dramic stuff but turned out to be just a story. Now it looks as if Duggan wasn’t armed or had a weapon on him or anything that looked like a weapon. So why was he killed? The police in NI don’t kill someone because they *think* they might have a gun, at least not any-more thank God.
Jazz Notes:
.
Sensible, properly-informed anti-Zionists, Mary, will have nothing to do with Gilad Atzmon. He does indeed flirt with holocaust denial & holocaust deniers. And I say that as an ardent promoter of Finkelstein’s exposé volume ‘The Holocaust Industry.’ The function of the consummate saxophonist/confusionist is to enable the inherently racist state of Israel to maintain — should all else fail — its desperate lie that anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism.
Craig you say, “The police were quite right to believe that Duggan was armed. Something went wrong in that Duggan was shot – but it was not an action without reason.”
.
I agree with you there sort of, but since he didn’t seem to have even had anything that looked like a gun, it’s a bit of a step to shot someone dead on a suspicion of being armed. Having gun under his jacket or in his sock.
.
“They were wearing sportswear. I pondered what a pity it was that they did not kick the old lady to death and go out and smash some more shop windows and steal some more sportswear. Then commenters on this blog could have explained to me they were an enlightened part of the revolutionary vanguard.”
.
I’m sorry to hear about your train journey but I don’t get it with the sports-gear. I wear trainers sometimes and a sweat shirt and don’t go round smashing up shops. Tony Blair wears a suit but that doesn’t mean everyone who wears a suit is a war criminal.