The fashionable left continues its attempt to co-opt and elevate gangsters and violent thieves by an extremely poor article in the Guardian on the Duggan shooting. The Guardian acknowledge that Duggan had a gun, and that it was loaded, but call him “unarmed” on the basis that it was in a shoebox. The police, incidentally, deny that.
It is still completely beyond me why so many commenters on this blog seek to conflate the genuine problems police confront as they are increasingly faced with violent armed criminals, with the genuinely indefensible police actions in cases like their killing of Jean Charles De Menezes. Refusal to acknowledge the difference devalues the arguments around what is and is not reasonable for the police to do. Duggan is not De Menezes. The police were quite right to believe that Duggan was armed. Something went wrong in that Duggan was shot – but it was not an action without reason.
At a banal level, I had a really horrible journey down from St Andrews yesterday on a very overcrowded East Coast train, with the now routine problem of people sitting on the floor between coaches. In the coach which I was in, two tables of young people were listening to extremely loud music on a boombox. It really was very unpleasant, and prevented others from sleeping, reading etc. Two or three passengers asked them to turn it down, which they would do for perhaps thirty seconds and then turn it right up again. One notably old lady who had the misfortune to be seated back to back with them was called a “stupid old cow”. The train staff seemed cowed and resorted to treating it all as a big joke. I tried to reason with them and got “Fuck off fat man” for my pains.
They were wearing sportswear. I pondered what a pity it was that they did not kick the old lady to death and go out and smash some more shop windows and steal some more sportswear. Then commenters on this blog could have explained to me they were an enlightened part of the revolutionary vanguard.
@”Guest” – Yes “sad” is the operative word here; Sad that Craig has this rather irrational & nasty side that stains his otherwise quite decent traits.
Thanks for not being pedantic enough to mention my little typo of “credibly” instead of “credibility”.
If you are posting under “Guest” because you are regular here and don’t want to openly criticise Craig, then that would also be rather sad; after all even Suhayl has pull him up on this thread !
Well, whatever, we can be sure that nobody will ever bother to get to the bottom of it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/20/mark-duggan-shooting-watchdog-panel
Despite obvious & tragic differences, the deaths of Duggan & Menezes have one paradoxical factor in common. Standard operating procedure.
Specialist firearms units such as CO19 have for decades operated a de facto shoot-to-kill policy. Though for obvious reasons never publicly acknowledged, training is designed to ensure in effect nothing less. The logic being that anything less (i.e. a merely wounded target) needlessly endangers officers’ lives. Whilst doing everything to avoid firing in the first place, such units never shoot to wound.
This is why such killings are by no means uncommon — be it the unarmed man in Hackney brandishing a chair-leg, or the unarmed man in Sussex, for example, who was naked at time of death, having just jumped out of bed.
The same logic requires dumdum (expanding) bullets, use of which has been banned in warfare ever since the Hague Convention of 1899, because of their devastating effect on the human body — the very reason units such as CO19 use them. And why multiple shots are fired, preferably at close range.
From this perspective (of what’s really a special forces unit), whether Duggan was in actuality armed acquires moral & practical significance only after the event. Training ensures such units proceed on the assumption that anybody, once targeted, is armed & is prepared to kill, particularly if merely injured. This is why the completely innocent Jean Charles de Menezes died such a gruesome & barbaric death — to the apparent utter horror & disgust of fellow Tube passengers.
The following documentary clip, despite its Yard Press Bureau framing, provides a graphic indication — 1.20 mins in — of the very likely physical circumstances seconds before Duggan’s death:
http://bit.ly/nePowD
(NB: sent without dot para separators in final desperate attempt to obviate repeated non-appearance of comment, because of apparent blog software malfunction.)
To view the above video you need to remove the full stop between ‘bit’ and ‘ly’ and then it works.
You’re getting old Craig. ;O)
~~~~~If you honestly believe that there is any parallel between having a knife in your kitchen drawer and having a loaded gun in your car, you are a fool.~~~~~
The porkies carry loaded guns, shall we kill them on sight lest they think we’re Brazilian plumbers?
Glenn: yes. Or it can be apparently done out of love (as when a usually un-violent parent spanks a child for dangerous behaviour) but that still makes it twisted for both parties, I think. Komodo, you may have missed my last request to cite the ‘alarming increase in juvenile violence since corporal punishment was abolished’. I mean, facts, figures etc.
As for Mark Duggan, I wonder why the media are glossing over the fact that, as Ingo said, the ‘riots’ started when police attacked a girl at a vigil for him.
Craig,
Duggan did NOT have a gun in the car. Read all the latest reports. Are you in denial here? Do the facts not fit in with your world view?
‘More Fashionable Left Stupidity’ – Craig Murray on the Killing of Mark Duggan – Plus Ultra Today, 2:52 pm
Dear Craig – gabriele Today, 3:27 pm
Re: Dear Craig – thiskneelingfool Today, 3:36 pm
Re: Dear Craig – emersberger Today, 5:04 pm
Rebellion in Tottenham, 2011 – Anton Today, 4:14 pm
View all » http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1321887147.html
Glen,
Well we’ll just have to wait and see what comes out of the Duggan enquiries, won’t we? I’m just saying that at this point it looks possible the police did act reasonably against a suspect they knew had a gun and they should not always be instinctively criticised.
In the meantime, hysterical and misleading headlines will not help. Neither will lumping a whole load of cases together into a conspiracy theory and extrapolating. What will help is the efforts of good investigative journalists and representatives from the community to make sure the enquiries do get to the facts about who did what, as eventually happenned with the De Menezes case. Sure, the police officers involved claimed he was wired and ready to blow up. That’s what they thought and that’s why they shot him, right? But that wasn’t the conclusion at the end of the enquiries. The police officers didn’t shoot him because they were brutal and enjoy shooting innocent people. They shot him because the operation was poorly organized, information was not effectively communicated and the whole thing was taking place under pressure of recent events that unreasonably influenced judgements and policies. Those are the issues that need to be addressed in the wake of that case and we’ll have to wait and see what issues need to be addressed in the wake of the Duggan case.
Hello David H –
Sure we could play “wait and see” – the favourite passtime of embarrassed politicians when they’re waiting for a storm to blow over, but what would that achieve? The police shot dead an unarmed man, whatever his character and past. You say, “they knew he had a gun” – actually they didn’t, because he didn’t. No more than Blair/ Bush “knew” Iraq was going to attack everyone in 45 minutes with his mythical WMD. This Duggan isn’t a mate of mine, btw, and I’m not an admirer. I have no stake in this, but it bothers me greatly when unarmed people get shot by a supposedly unarmed police force. Particularly when they lie about it to cover up the extra-judicial execution it clearly was.
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Heck, I wasn’t “lumping a whole load of cases together in a conspiracy theory”, I was quoting – right off the top of my head – blatantly obvious cases where the first information that “leaked out” was 100% BS designed to mislead, in the hope that it would stick. You were the one trying to pass off such obvious misinformation as just honest “errors” while trying “to get the story out quickly to a hungry 24-hour press cycle”, if you recall. Do you need more examples – how much time do you have? More to the point, are you really that credulous?
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I’m making a “conspiracy theory and extrapolating” by pointing out your feeble establishment apologia? Seriously?
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No, it’s not a “wait and see” and we’ll eventually read the Real Truth in Lord This, or Lord That’s official report. We’ll have our cynicism affirmed when a whitewash finally arrives, we hear officially that Nobody Is To Blame, and a few promotions are thrown in for those who are actually responsible for the deaths of innocents. Like Cassandra Dick, for instance, and the Blairs.
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That you can imagine a “wait and see what the official report says” will be satisfactory is quite touching. Are you completely assured by your country’s Warren Commission report? Or the ix/xii report, for that matter?
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I do appreciate you taking the time to inform me how the system is supposed to work, but dude – seriously – that ain’t how it is.
Don’t see the difference – I own a weapon. In fact it’s not on me so I can’t use it right now. The old bill don’t know that, they think I might have it on me. The don’t wait for me to start waving it around, they kill me quick just in case. That’s not right – they shouldn’t kill people unless they’re actually pointing the gun.
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We see the same sort of thing at University of California Davis, where there’s perfectly clear film of a policeman walking along a row of sitting kids spraying them with dangerous chemicals and then walking back along the row spraying them again. Now the police dept say he was surrounded and couldn’t get out. So did he say ‘ Excuse me, I need to go now, could I get through’? Did he try to push past or step over? No. He just sprayed them. If he gets away with it, how long until the next retarded plod decides to use his gun instead of his pepper spray?
Note the Israeli training. I remember reading about this on the transcripts of the Sir Michael Wright inquest that followed.
‘Pinned down on the floor, Jean Charles de Menezes could not move. There was a rumour that he had seemed to recognize his assailants. But, after seven bullets in the back of his head the world would never learn why or how he came to be chosen. They were dum-dum bullets, which explode upon impact. The bullets were pumped in slowly, with several second intervals between each. He was on the floor of a Northern Line tube at Stockwell Underground station at 10 am on 22nd July 2005, and this was Operation Kratos. The Special Branch or FRR – whoever they were, they were certainly not the Met – were showing off to all the world the special training they had received from the Israeli army.
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But, the just-shoot-them-in-the-head Kratos policy was supposedly for ‘suicide bombers’ and nothing about this young electrician matched this description. The gang who shot him wore no police uniform, and after the killing they went about terrorizing other tube users and even pinned the train driver on the platform at gunpoint (1). The officer who murdered de Mendezes in cold blood remains unnamed and was supposedly sent off on a holiday, to de-stress (2).
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The Israeli training for “Operation Kratos” – of specialist London Police units such as SO19, who might have done this – included the shoot-to-kill policy of at least five shots to the head. Armed ‘police officers’ fired eleven shots at Jean Charles de Menezes – evenly spaced over 30 seconds. ‘At the time the eyewitness reports which were made public stated that five or six shots had been fired, but that went up to eight a few days later, then finally eleven.’ To quote Alex Jones. Wiki has 11 shots fired, 6 of which entered his head – not that it matters.
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Cressida Dick, the ‘Gold Command’ in charge of the operation that led to de Menezes being shot seven times in the head after he was mistaken for a suspected suicide bomber, was in February 2007 promoted to the senior rank of Deputy Assistant Commissioner. Officers shooting ordinary citizens appear to do so with impunity: since 1993, there have been 30 fatal shootings by the Police with no police officer successfully prosecuted for any one of them.’
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http://terroronthetube.co.uk/related-articles/operation-kratos-and-the-de-menezes-assassination/
It’s obvious why the British police are not routinely armed, there would be so many members of the public murdered that there wouldn’t be enough whitewash in B&Q to cover it up.
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I once traveled on Virgin Rail inter-city service where the last carriage was a quiet zone, no mobiles or boom-boxes were to be tolerated. Half way through the journey a young girl got on blissfully unaware of the nature of the carriage she was entering and soon enough was, I presume out of boredom, calling her friends one after the other. The conversation was basically about her failing relationship with her current boyfriend and no stone was left unturned in what had happened and how he had been found to be sleeping around, you can guess the rest.
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What was remarkable was that she showed no embarrassment about broadcasting to the whole carriage the details of her eventful love life and given the entertainment value no one asked her to shut up. Thankfully or not she left at the next stop and left us all to go back to sleep. Something similar happens on tv show such as Jeremy Kyle, really cringe worthy telly.
Note the Israeli training. I remember reading about this on the transcripts of the Sir Michael Wright inquest that followed.
‘Pinned down on the floor, Jean Charles de Menezes could not move. There was a rumour that he had seemed to recognize his assailants. But, after seven bullets in the back of his head the world would never learn why or how he came to be chosen. They were dum-dum bullets, which explode upon impact. The bullets were pumped in slowly, with several second intervals between each. He was on the floor of a Northern Line tube at Stockwell Underground station at 10 am on 22nd July 2005, and this was Operation Kratos. The Special Branch or FRR – whoever they were, they were certainly not the Met – were showing off to all the world the special training they had received from the Israeli army.
.
But, the just-shoot-them-in-the-head Kratos policy was supposedly for ‘suicide bombers’ and nothing about this young electrician matched this description. The gang who shot him wore no police uniform, and after the killing they went about terrorizing other tube users and even pinned the train driver on the platform at gunpoint (1). The officer who murdered de Mendezes in cold blood remains unnamed and was supposedly sent off on a holiday, to de-stress (2).
.
The Israeli training for “Operation Kratos” – of specialist London Police units such as SO19, who might have done this – included the shoot-to-kill policy of at least five shots to the head. Armed ‘police officers’ fired eleven shots at Jean Charles de Menezes – evenly spaced over 30 seconds. ‘At the time the eyewitness reports which were made public stated that five or six shots had been fired, but that went up to eight a few days later, then finally eleven.’ To quote Alex Jones. Wiki has 11 shots fired, 6 of which entered his head – not that it matters.
.
Cressida Dick, the ‘Gold Command’ in charge of the operation that led to de Menezes being shot seven times in the head after he was mistaken for a suspected suicide bomber, was in February 2007 promoted to the senior rank of Deputy Assistant Commissioner. Officers shooting ordinary citizens appear to do so with impunity: since 1993, there have been 30 fatal shootings by the Police with no police officer successfully prosecuted for any one of them.’
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http://terroronthetube.co.uk/related-articles/operation-kratos-and-the-de-menezes-assassination/
Wild Westminster ‘outlaws’ blamed for rail fare hikes
22 Nov 2011
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Tens of thousands of Wild West-style “wanted” posters featuring David Cameron, George Osborne and Nick Clegg, were today handed out at mainline stations across London.
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Given to peak time commuters arriving at Victoria, Waterloo, Euston, King’s Cross and Liverpool Street stations, they launched the start of an intensified campaign against January’s fare increases.
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Commuter fares will rise by an average of eight per cent – though many increases on busy routes serving the capital will be in double figures, adding hundreds of pounds to the cost of season tickets.
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The rail companies, who make millions of pounds’ profit, have been given permission to increase fares by three per cent above RPI – currently running at five per cent – for each of the next three years. It could add up to 25 per cent to peak-time fares.
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24012749-wild-westminster-outlaws-blamed-for-rail-fare-hikes.do
It’s a wonder that anybody can be bothered to travel by rail, let alone afford it. It’s about time commuters woke up and looked for work nearer to home, jack-in this commuting lark, complete folly.
Agreed.
But I think it was your suggestion in August that shooting ‘rioters’, with inevitable loss of life, was a good idea, that concerned right-thinking readers here.
I’m with them.
PS I may have mischaracterised your position (for which, apologies,) which was as follows: “I have no problem at all with calling for the deployment of baton rounds, tear gas and water cannon. If nobody has been burnt to death so far, it is a miracle. If the odd looter gets killed by the police by accident by a baton round, I would view that as very sad but something they brought upon themselves. I would not bring in the army at the moment, but the force of society should be brought to bear by the immediate enlistment of any volunteer with no criminal record as a temporary special constable. They should look to enlist tens of thousands.”
‘Slow Close Toilet Seat’ – just what I’ve always wanted! Is that a real spambot or the product of someone’s sense of humour? Do the spambotties have such things (a sense of humour, a slow-close toilet-seat)?
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These are existential questions of our time.
Now, a Fast Close Toilet Seat might be a risky piece of equipment.