It is a terrible thing if any US diplomats have been killed in Libya, as now appears likely. My condolences to the families of all affected. They add to the thousands of deaths in Libya, and one can only hope that finally some of the proponents of “liberal intervention” will realise that bombing people into democracy is not a viable policy.
But part of the responsibility for these deaths lies with the US and Israeli far right activists who made a film insulting Islam, with precisely the intention of provoking a spiral of violence. There are many interest groups longing to promote a perpetual climate of war and fear; some of them, like these filmmakers, are easier to identify than others.
Be it attacks on US diplomats in Libya or drone strikes on villagers in Yemen, it is all part of the same hateful cycle of violence – from which fortunes have been made in the arms, mercenary and security industries, and which climate of hatred has given cover and unflinching western support for resource grabs by Israeli illegal settlers.
So many people have poisoned what should be a beautiful world. The deaths of US diplomats in Libya get noticed. The evryday deaths of so many others in this manufactured conflict do not.
the Quilliam Foundation – indeed.
Person of interest,ex-LIFG
http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/about/staff/noman-benotman/
Yes, Felix, it would seem that being a Publicly Recanted ex-Islamist is good for both the CV and the bank balance. These guys got excellent funding when they were Islamists and they still get excellent funding now they are ex-Islamists. Perhaps, soon, he’ll write a book and be all over, say, Hay-on-Wye (sponsored by The Guardian, or the Royal Bank of Scotland), in genteel conversation with Kirsty Wark (or has he done all that already?). A possible dialogue:
“Sorry about all the corpses, chaps, it was nothing personal, just business. As you can see, I no longer sport facial hair” [middle-class, white paying audience laughs, reservedly]
Vague Hague, I don’t know anything about the American ambassador except that he and a few other diplomats and Libyan security forces were killed. You may think that, “as a combatant”, he deserved to die, but I haven’t seen much evidence of that. Perhaps, you think he deserves the grisly death that Gaddafi had. I am of the opinion that neither should have been murdered, but the way you are framing your posts I get the impression that you were upset over Gaddafi’s death and are trying to suppress some glee over the death of the US ambassador. I could be wrong, of course, but I have seen this syndrome before.
.
Suhaayl, I think that your post at 6:59 am is very true. What many in the US (and UK and elsewhere) should be thinking about is whether or not they have enabled these radical factions. I expect similar things in Syria too.
Point of interest!
What exactly is the point of mans existence?
Good start for the day?
No one seems to have cottoned on that the attack actually happened on 11th September.
The so called ‘terrorist’ attack by ‘Islamist extremists’ in Egypt that led to the death of two dozen Egyptian border guards was co-ordinated by Israel.
Leaked Russian minutes of the meeting between Putin and Netanyahu show that Netanyahu has control over the so called Syrian Rebels, even to the point that Netanyahu offered Putin his choice of future Syrian leader while trying to cut a deal to get Russia to support a no-fly zone.
Just one day before the attack Obama publicly slapped down Netanyahu by refusing to host him in Washington for a meeting on Iranian ‘red lines’.
Israeli history is replete with examples of Israel creating it’s own enemies to justify it’s actions and gain media support. One prime example is Hamas, another is the raid on Entebe.
Israel has controlled the Muslim Brotherhood (certainly in Egypt) since the 1960s.
There is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that the original September 11th attacks were conducted by Israel – the 5 dancing Israelis, the put options, Odigio sending out warnings, Silverstein’s multiple verbal gaffs…. it just goes on and on.
Protect our young!
With no particular knowledge, I would have presumed A US ambassador in a worn torn country would have a security detail. Marines, special forces, even mercenaries perhaps (but something beyond a few locals). I have seen no mention of such protection but perhaps I have missed it. Does anyone here know what security such a man would normally have?
It don’t matter much that the US ambassador in Libya is whacked.
That’s a place in turmoil.
It would matter were the US ambassador to London or Paris etc whacked.
That may happen in time, and I suspect it will. The Americans are perceived as Nazis by many people around the world. It’s now clear that the Americans don’t understand this perception of them. Many of their people are too stupid to undertand anything other than raw power. It’s increasingly clear that broad intellectuals have deserted this American political project and they’re left with narrow thinking to an end. When we look at America we need to understand that we’re looking at a society in decline. What made the US powerful in its essence, no longer exists.
The problem of course is that this dying thing still has the most powerful weapons on the planet.
Yes. Others will have considered this matter.
My view is that the US can never usefully use these major weapons without destroying itself and should it not do so it will be deopndent on an emertgent East, with all that that entails.
Have you noticed that instantly there are two warships off the coast, 50 Marines and drones overflying eastern Libya? Alky Ada again, 9/11 anniversary and involvement of some other outfit according to Frank ‘I Was There’ Gardner on Radio 4 Today this morning. He even quoted Quilliam as a reliable source for his information. Obomber was doing a I Rule The World Speech from several thousand miles away.
I wonder really how strong the link is between the film and the attack in Libya (though not in Egypt).
It has to be said that if the subject of the film were Abraham or Moses rather than Mohammed and the plot the same then we could expect similar angry protests from the Jewish community, especially the ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel. I wonder how many Palestinians they might have lynched by now.
Of course, had it been a film about holocaust denial, then it would have already been flushed down the memory hole and it’s makers outed and ousted.
Just saying…
Stevens had had a Jerusalem posting previously.
Angrysoba
Just so you’re clear, and I refer directly to your post above.
The slaughter of Gadaffi was the greater crime over the killing of this US gangster killed yesterday or any other US gangster, however they describe themselves,
That would be the case under International Law too.
Once you understand this problem, then perhaps you won’t be so sanguine about the slaughter your people routinely visit upon defenceless people across the planet.
I know it doesn’t look like it now, but the days of your gangsters easy killing are coming to an end. It’s kinda like inevitable in a way that even common or garden physics would predict.
But there ya go. There’s nothing as stupid as stupid, and you people are stupid. Very stupid.
So good to have you back too, Angrysoba, in your usual succinct and well educated manner.
This video will inadvertently be used by militant factions, and i can’t see your ire. Moreover, after the Iraq example everyone knew were this course of unprepared aftermath to warfare would lead to, chaos!
Exactly the same rows going on then between Pentagon and State department are now visible again, Libyan society is faced with armed tribal factions taking their queue from their elders, they are armed to the teeth and a split between east and west Libya is a real prospect in this I agree with Ruth and Suhayl.
Whats with the reactor’s still burning Angry? have they solved the 3rd. story cooling pool problem yet or has it descended to the first floor, happily burning away?
On another topic, ‘Former Home Secretary Jack Straw said he had “great regret” for the failings of a judicial review of Hillsborough evidence which the Labour government ordered in 1997’. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19582072
Pull the other one Jack. NuLabour had 13 years to do something and before then Major was around for 8 years. Perhaps there were friends in high places such as the S Yorks police. The facts were obvious. Who were these two law lords and what were their connections?
‘An independent inquiry led by Lord Chief Justice Taylor in the immediate aftermath of the disaster found the main cause had been a failure in crowd control by South Yorkshire Police.
In 1996, the then Home Secretary Jack Straw ordered Lord Justice Stuart-Smith to review “new” evidence which had not been submitted to the inquiry and also dozens of police and witness statements, which had been altered.
Lord Justice Stuart-Smith concluded that the evidence did not add anything significant and that while statements should not have been edited, this was simply an “error of judgement”.
Mr Straw said Lord Justice Stuart-Smith had “operated in good faith and I greatly regret that he could not get to the bottom of this”.
“I regret that I had not spotted this – if I could turn the clock back, I would do so and some years of heartache for these families would have been saved.”‘
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19582072
LOL and without absolutely any irony especially in the first paragraph.
“We want to send a message all around the world,’’ Mr. Obama said. “No act of terror will dim the light of the values that we proudly shine on the rest of the world, and no act of violence will shake the resolve of the United States of America.”
Mr. Obama reiterated his intention to punish those responsible, saying: “Al Qaeda is on the path to defeat and bin Laden is dead. We still face threats in this world and we’ve got to remain vigilant, and that’s why we will be relentless in our pursuit of those who attacked us yesterday.”
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/obama-speaks-of-libya-attack-at-rally-in-las-vegas/
Vague Hague at 8.11, you’re wrong this time. It really does matter if the independence of embassies is broached and people inside them, ambassadors and staff, are killed. Remember Craig was an ambassador. Remember too that William Hague (no relation I hope) with his Mr Silly hat on, threatened to storm the Ecuadorian embassy to arrest the goods he had promised to ship to the US via Sweden. The sanctuary of embassies should be sacrosanct.
However I agree that Israel and the US have brought it on themselves for thinking themselves as masters of some kind of New World Order. You cannot bomb the living daylights out of a country and expect its citizens to love you for it.
Mary, what’s the betting next that Obama blames the bombing on the Syria or Iranian government?
Now is a particularly relevant time to recommend Salman Rushdie’s superb and moving excerpt from “Joseph Anton” from the latest New Yorker. Perfect for all the book burners out there.
The Disappeared
How the fatwa changed a writer’s life.
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/09/17/120917fa_fact_rushdie#ixzz26KxhFtZw
John
I just said that the killing of Gadaffi was a greater crime than the killing of the US gangster.
And it is under International Law
That’s all.
Seems it has spread to Yemen – hope this wasn’t an Archduke Ferdinand moment…
Vague Hague, the killing of Gadaffi was despicable. The hanging of Saddam Hussein without a proper trial was likewise despicable. I could not agree more. All killing for power is evil. It is the ‘same hateful cycle of violence’ referred to in Craig’s post. Ambassadors, (excluding those in the Swedish Embassy in the capital of Cambodia, Pnom Penh – wish I could spell it) are there in theory to protect their citizens and those seeking asylum from persecution. I think we are on the same side.
Embassy now stormed in Yemen. I’m no fan of storming embassies – Ecuador’s or anyone elses – but the US really needs a strong wake-up call. It’s all very well saying ‘we will democracy you assholes, feel my drone-width’, and that sounds nice for Fox news. But it doesn’t help anything. The US has put itself in the position of making Vladimir Putin sound reasonable. We all know he’s full of it, but compared to the US military, Putin looks like a statesman. Troubling.
The US led West has been Muslim bashing for over a decade now.
This could well be the “Arab recoil” and what bit the US in the butt.
Their bases and weapons won’t help them if the Arab streets erupt against them
@Vague Hague 8:11am
The Americans are perceived as Nazis by many people around the world. It’s now clear that the Americans don’t understand this perception of them. Many of their people are too stupid to undertand anything other than raw power.
I don’t think they are stupid, rather a combination of a poor state education system and msm owned by the likes of Murdoch, has kept most Americans in ignorance of what their masters reaqlly do in the name of the USA abroad.
Until 2003, I had quite a few holidays in the US and was appalled at the poor quality of international news reporting on their TV. Interesting to note in this context, Al Jazeera English is only available via the internet over there, except around Washington DC. Can’t have a different point of view corrupting our peasantry can we?
Ben Franklin wrote:
“The cause of most wars throughout History is the silly doctrines that assemble opinions, attitudes and beliefs formed by mythical entities who had some perspective which has been perverted by the mobs of unthinking adherents”.
Much as I admire “Poor Richard’s Almanac” and your ma ny other contributions to enlightened civilisation, Ben, I have to take issue with you about this somewhat exaggerated statement. I have some sympathy with your point of view; nearly 50 years ago I remember answering an exam question about whether Christianity had done more harm than good, and playing devil’s advocate by saying “yes”.
I think the cause of most wars throughout history has been one bunch of people’s earnest desire to conquer, subjugate, and enslave another group of people – or, at least, to loot their property and take their land and other resources. Religion, it is true, has often been used as a pretext to disguise those cynical resource grabs. Take the Crusades, for example: often triggered by an appeal from the Pope or some other religious figure to “free the Holy Land from the infidel”, they were actually launched and carried out by kings and barons who wanted to conquer land, win riches, and make a name for themselves.
“Stevens had had a Jerusalem posting previously.”
So he definitely had it coming then? 🙄
The lack of humanity and empathy on display from some is worrying.
As Suhayl@659 shows, it is possible to be a robust critic of US foreign policy and also to condemn religious zealots murdering people at some perceived offence towards their brand of hocus pocus.
Angrysoba, you’re good. Pleased to see someone on here attempt to cut through some of the self satisfying drivel and ‘inappropriate’ posts.
Here is something for those interested in the policy side of things, particularly policy related to the work of the US intelligence community. It’s a speech by General Michael Hayden former head of NSA and CIA at the University of Michigan a few days ago.
He outlines the basic principles for why cutting back on essential liberty for some temporary safety is the way of US intelligence policy, today and in the foreseeable future.
For anyone sufficiently indoctrinated by MSM what he says makes sense, for anyone else it should scare the hell out f you.
He is boldly, in front of a supposedly “intellectual” crowd, outlining a society taken straight out of Orwells 1984. Create a fictitious enemy to legitimise an eternal fictitious war and in the process obtain total executive powers.
He is a very good speaker though, can’t take that away from him.
http://www.c-span.org/Events/C-SPAN-Event/10737433945/
A quote by BF seems appropriate here. “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety”
So it seems AA isn’t the only person out there who deletes embarrassing tweets;
https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/246007008355049473/photo/1/large
Maybe not CE. I’ve deleted a few myself when I’ve reflected on the potential harm they might do. But I don’t go around puncturing condoms to try and get a man a bad name. And neither I suspect do Wikileaks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nIrLS3gI8A&feature=context-gau
The protest was hijacked and violence used to attain a very different outcome. The attack on the British ambassador in Benghazi in June didn’t follow an insult to Islam.