The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Kookie…
Quote…
“where have I denied Saad using a SATELLITE PHONE ?”
So he was using a Satellite phone ?
Where do you know this from ?
Again, quote..
“I DENIED the suggestion that SAAD called EMERGENCY SERVICES…”
So he called “Paris” ?
On a satellite phone only you know about ????
Is this knowledge ? Hearsay ? Imagination ? Drugs ? A disorder ?
Or a bit of the last three !
You can see why I use the word “kookie”, Kookie !
The Sunday Times article said that Mollier was taking a “new route”.
It is implied that the route was suggested to him by claire’s father (Franck I believe).
However the article suggests that he had made a mistake in some way cycling this “new” route…and ended up on the Combe D’Ire.
I assume that the police had spoken to “Franck”, hence this conclusion.
This may stand up if he was say Brett Martin, but he wasn’t. Mollier was a local man. Had spent (I assume) many years of his life in this area.
Where the hell was he going ?
Why would a 74 year want to go “camping” ?
Fly in from Stockholm….to Surrey.
Then go camping in France.
What does a four year old in a car for 8 hours ?
Move ? Have a wee ? Cry ? Fall asleep ?????
Found an interesting Mollier company. Dont know whether or not related.
However, that company offers infrared technology, microvave technology and medical technology for hospitals.
It is located in Slovenia and in Croatia.
http://www.mollier.eu/
It does somehow do what Elekta and AstraZenica are doing. Perhaps worth to investigate some more. Wasnt there a Balkan guy in the camping site?
There’s a Roger Mollier in bluebird’s link (12.57pm) to le daupine libere – Albertville local news, and the same chap in the picture of the Ugine report (12/5/2012)of Ceremony May 8, 1945 in {http://www.ledauphine.com/fr/Search.aspx?q=roger+mollier&x=1&y=1&x=0&y=0}
As to who he is: the obits can be searched at LibraMemoria.com Roger was 78 when he died in 2011 and this was Sylvain’s family. They dropped the ‘8’ off by mistake. So the picture is someone else. Maybe served in Indochina? To have been in the forces in 39-45 he would be 85 – 90 now. 6 items are listed there (about Sylvain’s father): {http://www.libramemoria.com/fr/recherche-avis-deces-v2/index.html}
Some other RMs in the area. Was he one of these?
– Roger Mollier-Camus at ALBERTVILLE 73200 (phone book)
– MOLLIER ROGER > Métallier > Métallier à Saint-Nicolas-la-Chapelle (15km NE of Ugine)
– Roger Joseph Mollier: Repair of personal and household goods ANNECY LE VIEUX
– in L’Echolatain, paper for the Val d’Arly (Ugine, Albertville), is a report of Andre “the Plan”… who looked after the Maison Familiale when it was parochial and worked at the sawmills and a Roger Mollier timberyard at VVF Praz sur Arly (Village Vacances France)mountain ski village resort 15km NE of Ugine.
Wartime Roger Mollier:
– “But that’s not all, because three men were prisoners of war: Roger Mollier, Florent Durand and Julien Dumas. They return six to seven long years later, having for some torn Europe through all to go home.” (39-45 in Voissant, 20km west of Chambery)
– “Staff of 6th Batallion of the Secret Army (Tarentaise valley, east of Ugine) Bourg St Maurice: including Lieutenants Émile Paganon – Mollier – Louis Tordo”
Roger Mollier, Mayor at 07110 VINEZAC was unlucky to be caught out by ProChoix campaigners who obtained and published the list of 15000 mayors who had signed an anti gay petition. Roger Mollier continued as mayor until 2001, he is president of Football Jeunesse in Vinezac, south west of Valence, in the South Ardeche. Unlikely to have been parading in Savoie, not Sylvain’s father.
Mailaud the prosecutor told the Sunday Times that 90% he is certain Sylvain Mollier, the worker, was not implicated in the Chevaline Tuerie. Leave aside any percentage – no evidence of oddness or weirdness has emerged so far. (MI6 and DDSE have not spoken so far)
re: satellite phones
I neither know, care or have the will to check who said what when but please please just drop it. It just creates a lot of confusing “noise” and makes this place look bad.
There, I’ve broken my normal rule – I don’t like self appointed moderators and I’ve just acted like one. At least I’ve tried to be neutral.
On 2 Dec, 2012 – 4:08 pm I posted some links to Philippe DidierJean. A few are found on 123.com etc but no way to link the witness of Chevaline to any of these.
Also some links to Philippe Desmazes – his picture and exploits in Sirte, Libya. And to credits wherever ‘Dezmazes/AFP/Getty’ appears below pictures. As noted by others there were some nearby/elsewhere in France but after 5th Sept the steady stream was just from Chevaline. No knowing if he stayed there himslef or if his name is tagged to a collective or if he has his own agency/staffers. Probably too many examples were posted so that entry still remains in moderation.
Point was made that recruiting such a person would be a risky strategy. Someone so close to the press pack could hardly be trusted to keep his mouth shut if his identity had been borrowed. And if by any chance he had been permitted to witness the scene, what chance he would not take pictures maybe rivalling his Gadafi pictures for fame and price? So not a suitable person to use as one of the (incredible) make over cast,
Bleb.
Lets take it there wasn’t a damn satellite…and try to stick to what is “known” !
Like how does a 4 year remain in a car for 8 hours ?
Trauma ? Drugs ? Gas ?
Hi James,
Yes, 4 year old in car for eight hours plus no report of defensive type wounds (eg: shielding with hands) or ducking down by the two women in the car. Why did they apparently just sit there to be shot in the head?
Yet another oddity.
Bleb.
This may sound “bizarre” but I don’t recall any suicides that are “forced” by gun point ?
Just thinking a 4 year old “asleep” for 8 hours ?
The 8 year old completely “out of it” and passing out ?
The doors locked ?
and the kicker. The roof rack broken as “someone” held onto it as they tried to break (that rather large hold) in he passenger side window….but tragically shot in the back (or side and back) as that person attempted a rescue ?
No proof of this, just tring to fit the 4 year olds condition, with the 8 year olds, with the broken roof rack and with Mollier.
Trouble is..
It doesn’t explain why the car being was “in gear”.
It doesn’t explain the blood of SM on SAH.
It may explain how the shooting started ?
The killer shot the rescuer (SM) and then had to continue to shoot the family (?).
It may explain the eldest girl being out of the car that has it’s door locked. Dragged out by SM as the shots began (?)
It may explain the survival of the youngest. Her mother released the child and put her under the skirt she had on (?)
(by the way – Thank you very much bluebird for the invaluable background on Israeli society: Ashkenazi / Sephardi tensions etc.)
now – some interesting but useless information.
MOLLIER d.o.o. CELJE Opekarniška cesta 3 3000 Celje – Slovenia
Company name takes us back to the beginning of operations in 1990. We started izsuševati and succeed. Name of the company we have selected a German Richard Mollier, mathematician, physicist, and an operator who has earned a worldwide reputation with a contribution on the development of technical thermodynamics and its diagram. Today, we are known in the market for cutting-edge technology for the remediation of water damage, which is constantly updated and upgraded
TÜV SÜD Services Munich has given company an ISO 9001:2008 certificate of management quality and efficiency
Mollier, the son of a businessman coming from the Rhineland, received a solid high school education in his hometown of Trieste, multilingual and cosmopolitan, at the time belonging to Austria. In 1882 he studied at the University of Graz for two semesters in mathematics and physics, and he continued his studies at the University of Munich. Soon, however, he joined the Mechanical Engineering at the Technical University of Munich.
see – mollier diagrans – quite fascinating – {http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mollier+diagram&hl=en&tbo=u&rlz=1T4ADRA_enGB354GB354&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Y029UIGmJOLM0AWxcA&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=543} – enthalpy–entropy chart, also known as the h–s chart or Mollier diagram
Telefonbuch Deutschland
standard search 20 results for “Mollier” in the directory of the phone book
private (17) , industrial (3)
Local selection: no selection District: no selection All categories: no selection Sort by: Relevance , A to Z
@Pink
3 Dec, 2012 – 6:19 am
I don’t necessarily believe any of the official narrative, but that is all we have to go on.
It’s possible the builders were mistaken. Timings are notoriously difficult to get right. Ask any trial lawyer. Do you know precisely what time you last saw a burgundy BMW pass you by?
Hi All,
I’ve been reading with great interest. All this talk about who made the initial call to emergency services? It was the killer, in my opinion, though not directly. Fits into my theory this was a State sponsored killing (reason unknown but SAH was clearly up to no good). The killer/black ops folks phoned into their HQ (wherever HQ was- not France and not the UK, in my opinion) and the call probably went something like this: “Things didn’t go as planned. The daughter freaked out and we had to contain her. She’s down, but still alive, and the others are all dead. Need immediate extraction.” HQ then arranges for extraction. Recall reports of a helicopter picking up 3 people nearby. HQ then contacts their counterparts in French secret service and MI6 and explains what happened (or as much as they have to).
I don’t think they knew in advance or the 20 “military types” would’ve arrived much sooner.
A lone psycho killer wouldn’t have left the girls alive. Why? Because he’s a psycho! A State agency would- they wouldn’t want to kill children. Because of the girls, and whatever SAH was involved in, there was a need for a massive cover-up.
Interesting the prosecutor suddenly talked about the case taking 10 years to solve… He had just been briefed on the “real” situation and the statement was intended to make the public lose interest- no other explanation for saying “10 years” which would be absurd if a psycho was on the loose! Whatever SAH was up to it was big. Just think about all the misinformation out there. Clearly the involvement of multiple governments here. Recall police wearing hazmat suits to enter the AH home? This never would’ve happened in a random shooting.
And the dead cyclist was somehow involved. Not random bad luck on his part. This is clear because nobody from the family spoke out, no info on burial, etc. The only thing unclear is which side the cyclist was on? Was he an agent? Or was he working with SAH? My guess is agent because there’s such little info on him and tight lipped family.
I can only hope this is a case where SAH was truly a bad guy…
More on my theory later…
I was trying to think why the women sat still waiting to be shot….
When the BMW was reversed into the bank to wait for SMs arrival, SAH decided to keep the engine running to keep the Air Con on. What if the exhaust pipe was blocked by the bank, would the engine splutter and stop or continue to run.
Would it be possible for Carbon monoxide to be building up inside the car?
If it would stall why would BM need to switch off the ignition?
Sounds like a limited hang-out, Lissie007, by those who did the massacre – much like I have already claimed – though without specific mention of the Mossad, and only alluding to a killer in a kidon like William Hershkovitz.
And this is only strengthened by your hoping that Saad al-Hilli was really a bad guy.
We will only know what he was when we learn what was being planned, like in the assassination of Sweden’s Olof Palme.
At the time, and shortly thereafter, agents who spoiled the plot, especially the Agency’s Rick Ames,the Bureau’s Robert Hanssen, and the Israelis’ Jonathan Pollard were considered traitors of the worst sort for having betrayed it.
It was only recently that we learned that by doing so, they prevented the Soviets from WINNING the Cold War – why the USA refuses to release them from prison for fear that it would help the real truth being determined.
Lizzie
Agree with your theory. That is about my theory.
In my theory, BM and Phillip D weren’t even there. They were just script actors for the media.
Straw
I think they were sitting in the car because they have tried to drive away quickly. Unfortunately the killer(s) were quicker.
Olifant
Very strange stuff with the ” Roger Molliers” of Haute Savoie.
I checked Bruns and Molliers regarding North Africa.
Both names happen to exist in Marocco and in Algerie quite often today as well as in the past. However, there are also Molliers in Switzerland, Germany and Corsica as well as in Quebec. There are Molliers in Haute Savoie since 150 years. Bruns are everywhere including Quebec and Israel. No way to find any roots. There are simply too many of them all over the world. This is a name like “Levy”.
Stawberry.
I would guess that the engine wouldn’t stall.
It would just “chugg” away.
I doubt the wheels would be “spinning” aggressively.
There would be too little power being applied for it to do that.
They have done at some point, looking at the mud on the BMW.
Question is “where” was that ?
If the car was stuck on the bank, engine running, tailpipe blocked and/or damaged, would this cause a build up of gases in the car for a 4 year old to be “knocked out” for 8 hours ? Remember the windows at this stage were breached.
Straw.
“I was trying to think why the women sat still waiting to be shot….”
Where could they go , what else could they do,get out of the car straight into the killers sights ?
We have no details of their position on the back seat & they were shielding Zeena anyway.
Lizzie, good to have your input.
So where did the killer make this call from, how did he have a signal if from the site ?
Katie,
Surely they would react in some way, hands in front of their face so they dont see their own end. Duck down into the footwell. Maybe they did the description of their bodies over Zeena is ambiguous from what I’ve read, but that makes the head shots to them harder. Also if they covered Zeena the shot to their heads must have been down thru the backs of their heads but still avoiding hitting Zeena beneath.
James,
I did look to see if Carbon Monoxide would rise or sink but its almost the same as air, but its possible Zeena could have fainted before recovering once the windows were broken and the engine stopped.
Not really persuasive enough to believe but worth the discussion.
Katie, please think logic!
Military and intelligence does not communicate with mobile phones. Never, except when being private. However, this event wasnt private. Of course they use radio devices.
The kill team did not call local police with a radio device of course. They send a code to HQ and HQ phones local police once the scene is cleaned. Phone call could even come in from Paris, London or TelAviv. Probably – when French intelligence wasnt involved, TelAviv calls French intelligence in Paris and THEY are calling police then.
The killer DOES NOT use his private phone to call police. God in Heaven!
Such events and actions are routine.
BM has not been at the event or else he would have been main suspect and not being released to the UK so quickly.
BM was the actor with pre arranged text and script presented to the media. He did not even know the scene. Phillip D was a last minute actor to support the first actor who sometimes forgot his text.
Strawberry
I was trying to think of how a roof rail could be broken.
Cleary (clearly he says !!!) he wouldn’t have driven about with the broken bit still attached (would he ???).
So if someone had held it, why ?
To break the glass of the window ??
But a BMW Touring has roof bars built in…and close to the edge.
Ran myself into a dead end !
Straw that’s what I said right at the very start of course it’s a normal reaction………but the point is we don’t know that they didn’t cower, if they had body shots first they would slump, what’s to stop the killer grabbing the hair ,lifting the head & shooting the forehead then ?
I have read the ‘final’ shot is to the head, it’s also why I say this whole scene could not have been executed in 30 seconds……..unless there was more than one killer.
BB, I can assure you I think very logically.
The comment I think you are referring to was my reply to this from Lizzie:
“All this talk about who made the initial call to emergency services? It was the killer, in my opinion, though not directly. ”
MY Question was:
“So where did the killer make this call from, how did he have a signal if from the site ?”
WE ……….know there was no ordinary mobile signal ………..so I’m interested in how LIZZIE thinks the call was made.
Katie
I did explain very slowly and dinstinctly about how the final call was made. Please read. Military can even communicate in the middle of the desert. And tgey are not using inmarsat satellite phones for doing that and neither they are using their private mobile phones in the middle of the desert.
James
The roof rail was broken because there was something on the roof what the killers wanted. Probably the whole thule. When you have no keys to unlock the thule then you have to break it off with force. That is how it looks like on the pictures.
For breaking the glass (as our actor said in his script) i would not try to use a fixed thule and struggle to break it off while the wheels are spinning. I would use the next stone that is bigger than an egg. We just need to think logic.
Sorry BB, I have no idea what it is you are referring to, I for one have never mentioned the MILITARY making any calls or where they make them from.
I also do NOT know how you can say when the final call was made BY WHOEVER when we have pages here disputing all the calls.
Pink, you and me both re mobile phones
So I’m about to get shouted down.
Is it only BM that has said that he couldnt get a signal.
I remember a coverage map that suggested there is no coverage there.
However it has been said that drug transactions happen in that car park. Would that be done in a mobile dead spot?
The graffiti on the large derelict building by the police road block certainly suggests the tone of the area.
Katie
I did support lizzies theory and i said that the call came from the HQ after they had received a “clearance code” from the scene by radio device. Is that so hard to understand? The kill team does not even have mobile phones simply because they are professionals and would never have mobile phones with them when being on duty.