The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Katie
You are getting confused with what I’m saying.
The right bar that remains would be unaltered with a narrow box on the left side of the roof. The dirt under the box makes the left side of the roof how it is now with the line next to the rack that is remaining.
The line is next to the remaining roof rack bar when you would expect it to beneath the bar.
Anyway here is a better photo to zoom in on:-
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221659&page=72
Yass’s post no 1439
Katie
Why dont you suggest how your bullet mark was made on the roof satisfactorily.
Doesn’t this case about an IT spy in the Swiss NDB pertain to the al-Hilli massacre:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242921/Swiss-spy-warning-Top-secret-MI6-counter-terrorism-intelligence-feared-stolen.html
Wasn’t he the guy who tried to withdraw money from the al-Hilli UBS bank account shortly after the killings – what was clearly done to put the onus for the murders on him who was already suspected of spying for some unknown foreign spy agency.
Seems that the NDB spy knew what was up regarding Saad, and wanted to tip off someone, like the Russians, Chinese or Iranians, about it, and what the CIA, MI6, et al. should be most concerned about now.
Looks like the spy knew that Saad was being set up for something which would require withdrawing the money from the account, and tried to take advantage of it, with apparent official prodding, once the murders had occurred.
And, of course, the media has no idea about how it might be connected to anything else occurring around this time!
Thanks for the link Straw, it still doesn’t tally, what’s more neither does that comment, those tyre marks do not tally with the arc & parking position they fall short by a couple of feet….if the BMW had reversed from the other side.
“Katie
Why dont you suggest how your bullet mark was made on the roof satisfactorily.”
My bullet mark ? I have said anything about one.
BB, you say maybe rain, yes maybe, but France generally at that time was very dry, we hadn’t had rain for at least three weeks or more, you saw how good the weather was with all the sunshine.
I think we have to believe that marks on the car are most likely from this incident.
The bonnet marks still remain a mystery as you say.
Edit my 10-22:
That should read ‘ Bullet mark ? I have NOT said anything about one.’
Ari Ben Menashe seems to be next one on their list. (remember that we had talked about him 2 weeks ago? Remember that I had rhetorically asked the question whether or not he will be the next name on their list?)).
That warning happened yesterday in Quebec!
http://www.newsday.co.zw/2012/12/04/ben-menashe-home-burnt/
@ Trowbridge H. Ford 5 Dec, 2012 – 10:12 am
“Doesn’t this case about an IT spy in the Swiss NDB pertain to the al-Hilli massacre:”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242921/Swiss-spy-warning-Top-secret-MI6-counter-terrorism-intelligence-feared-stolen.html
“Wasn’t he the guy who tried to withdraw money from the al-Hilli UBS bank account shortly after the killings – what was clearly done to put the onus for the murders on him who was already suspected of spying for some unknown foreign spy agency.”
No, that one is a Nigerian scamster in England, who is now in jail. He might have some connection to agencies. We just found he MAY have been trained in computer programming in Ghana, but Bluebird says it’s a common name.
This latest DM story goes along with the Generals P. & A. & wenches Mrs. B. & Mrs. K + twin sister fiasco; the Bradley Manning fiasco; the Canadians letting some “highly respected” scamster see all their top secret secrets fiasco – he is now scamming in the Bahamas & Africa and all they have is PO Boxes and can’t find him; the older Canadian fiasco of someone sneaking secrets out of a secret installation in Halifax on computer discs. Too many names to remember on short notice.
Did you see the DM pic used to illustrate the article: “Warned: The Secret Intelligence Service, based in London (pictured), was warned top secret information may have been compromised by the data theft”.
What is pictured is a bunch of cops in yellow safety vests standing idly in the foreground. So now we know what Secret Agents look like. Presume they meant the building in the background, though they usually use the Lego Palace to illustrate Great State Secrets or GCHQ.
Re your theory on Mossad and WH doing the deed at Chevaline, at this point it’s as good as any other theory anybody has put forward.
The trouble is, none of us can go further with it, so we stick to things we can argue about, like what’s in the few pics available and the conflicting news stories.
Tim V 5 Dec, 2012 – 2:55 am
“Oh yea a middle aged man with wife, mother in law and kids engages in drug deal in remote forest spot with known criminal types Bleb
5 Dec, 2012 – 12:15 am. Not very likely eh?”
Probably as likely as engaging in espionage (likely to upset a state with a known record of assassination) in that place with your family.
ie: reckless & stupid but not impossible.
However the AH’s may have just been in the wrong place and witnessed the murder of SM.
I’m trying to keep an open mind and I believe a criminal gang could
have done this. There is clearly organised drug and people trafficking going on in that area of France (see my earlier links). I have no idea of how the exact mechanics of the trade might work but presumably drugs/people moving from east to west and money in the opposite direction.
The war between Mizrahi versus Ashkenazi began with the sexual assassination of Israel’s persian Mizrahi president Moshe Katzav as well as with the sexual assassination of Mizrahi general Mordechai and with the assassination of Lehman Brothers in 2007/2008.
Since september 2012 their cold war broke out into a hot war with assassinations on both sides.
Mizrahi are anti-zionist but want their property and their houses restored and given back from arab and north african governments. They do not want Palestinian territory but they want their iraqi, syrian or northern african property and they want to live where their grandparents were born.
Mizrahi sympathise with jihadists and funded them for using them as “useful idiots” to achieve their goals. That is horror for ashkenazi zionists.
Mizrahi and their Arab copatriots control the international drug market.
Mizrahi control the international weapons market together with their arab copatriots and russian mercenaries.
Mizrahi control the international diamond and rare metals market.
They are rich and powerful but they do not control Israels politics and they do not control Mossad.
Both of that is under control of Ashkenazi.
The banks and the international financial market is controlled by Ashkenazi, particularly after the financial assassination of Lehmann Brthrs.
Now it is time to discuss an Iran war. However, iran is home to many Mizrahis. The Israel Mizrahis want to go home to Iraq and Iran while the Ashkenazi want all of them emmigrate to Israel for their zionist goals.
Since septmber 2012 there is an open war between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi. Mossad vs Mossad and CIA vs US Military secret service, the latter supporting Mizrahi ideology.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9722715/MI6-secrets-threatened-as-Swiss-spy-steals-a-mountain-of-data.html
Just more crap from you, Straw44berry.
Here is the Huffington Post article about the likeky huge loss of CIA and MI6 intelligence about operations, and the attempted theft of al-Hilli’s identify to steal those funds in that UBS account:
NDB Spy Agency Warns U.S., Britain About Huge Data Theft
Reuters | By Mark Hosenball Posted: 12/04/2012 7:31 am EST Updated: 12/04/2012 8:46 am EST
ZURICH (Reuters) – Secret information on counter-terrorism shared by foreign governments may have been compromised by a massive data theft by a senior IT technician for the NDB, Switzerland’s intelligence service, European national security sources said.
Intelligence agencies in the United States and Britain are among those who were warned by Swiss authorities that their data could have been put in jeopardy, said one of the sources, who asked for anonymity when discussing sensitive information.
Swiss authorities arrested the technician suspected in the data theft last summer amid signs he was acting suspiciously. He later was released from prison while a criminal investigation by the office of Switzerland’s Federal Attorney General continues, according to two sources familiar with the case.
The suspect’s name was not made public. Swiss authorities believe he intended to sell the stolen data to foreign officials or commercial buyers.
A European security source said investigators now believe the suspect became disgruntled because he felt he was being ignored and his advice on operating the data systems was not being taken seriously.
Swiss news reports and the sources close to the investigation said that investigators believe the technician downloaded terrabytes, running into hundreds of thousands or even millions of printed pages, of classified material from the Swiss intelligence service’s servers onto portable hard drives. He then carried them out of government buildings in a backpack.
One of the sources familiar with the investigation said that intelligence services like the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and Britain’s Secret Intelligence Service, also known as MI6, routinely shared data on counter-terrorism and other issues with the NDB. Swiss authorities informed U.S. and British agencies that such data could have been compromised, the source said.
News of the theft of intelligence data surfaced with Switzerland’s reputation for secrecy and discretion in government and financial affairs already under assault.
Swiss authorities have been investigating, and in some cases have charged, whistleblowers and some European government officials for using criminal methods to acquire confidential financial data about suspected tax evaders from Switzerland’s traditionally secretive banks.
The suspect in the spy data theft worked for the NDB, or Federal Intelligence Service, which is part of Switzerland’s Defense Ministry, for about eight years.
He was described by a source close to the investigation as a “very talented” technician and senior enough to have “administrator rights,” giving him unrestricted access to most or all of the NDB’s networks, including those holding vast caches of secret data.
Swiss investigators seized portable storage devices containing the stolen data after they arrested the suspect, according to the sources. At this point, they said, Swiss authorities believe that the suspect was arrested and the stolen data was impounded before he had an opportunity to sell it.
However, one source said that Swiss investigators could not be positive the suspect did not sell or pass on any of the information before his arrest, which is why Swiss authorities felt obliged to notify foreign intelligence partners their information may have been compromised.
Representatives of U.S. and British intelligence agencies had no immediate response to detailed queries about the case submitted by Reuters, although one U.S. official said he was unaware of the case.
SECURITY PROCEDURES QUESTIONED
Swiss Attorney General Michael Lauber and a senior prosecutor, Carolo Bulletti, announced in September that they were investigating the data theft and its alleged perpetrator. A spokeswoman for the attorney general said she was prohibited by law from disclosing the suspect’s identity.
A spokesman for the NDB said he could not comment on the investigation.
At their September press conference, Swiss officials indicated that they believed the suspect intended to sell the data he stole to foreign countries. They did not talk about the possible compromise of information shared with the NDB by U.S. and British intelligence.
A European source familiar with the case said it raised serious questions about security procedures and structures at the NDB, a relatively new agency which combined the functions of predecessor agencies that separately conducted foreign and domestic intelligence activities for the Swiss government.
The source said that under the NDB’s present structure, its human resources staff – responsible for, among other things, ensuring the reliability and trustworthiness of the agency’s personnel – is lumped together organizationally with the agency’s information technology division. This potentially made it difficult or confusing for the subdivision’s personnel to investigate themselves, the source said.
According to the source, investigators now believe that in the months before his arrest, the data theft suspect displayed warning signs that should have been spotted by his bosses or by security officials.
The source said that the suspect became so disgruntled earlier this year that he stopped showing up for work.
However, according to Swiss news reports, the NDB did not realize that something was amiss until the largest Swiss bank, UBS, expressed concern to authorities about a potentially suspicious attempt to set up a new numbered bank account, which then was traced to the NDB technician.
A Swiss parliamentary committee is now conducting its own investigation into the data theft and is expected to report next spring. Investigators are known to be concerned that the NDB lacks investigative powers, such as to search premises or conduct wiretaps, which are widely used by counter-intelligence investigators in other countries.
(Reporting by Mark Hosenball; Editing by Mark Heinrich)
Dar Adal,
the only thing what the Telegraph got wrong is the matter of fact that this guy was working for VBS but not for NDB
http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs/en/home/departement/organisation/organigram.html
Of course there is not much difference except for the employment. He was no NDB/FIS agent but he worked for the electronic infrastructure of Swiss VBS.
That database includes SECPOL, Swiss military and defence intelligence of the armed forces (J2) as well as special military intelligence (MIS) as well as FIS (Federal Intelligence Service).
NDB is the German shortage for FIS. In French/Suisse, the NDB is shortened as SRC (Service SRC Federal Intelligence). In fact, NDB/FIS/SRC is is all the same.
The database, however, is managed by VBS and VBS is organised/run by the Swiss army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Department_of_Defence,_Civil_Protection_and_Sports
@Straw44berry
5 Dec, 2012 – 10:06 am
I’ve studied that photo so many times .. I’m even seeing the ghostly figure with a manic grin sitting in the driver’s seat now!?
I’m sure it’s just a reflection of the trees tho’!
What I hadn’t noticed before is that the SOCO in the white suit on the left hand side of the photo is clearly holding a rectangular black object in his hand, which could just possibly be a bicycle saddle. Whatever it is, it’s just about the size of the span of the SOCO’s gloved hand.
Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I hadn’t noticed it.
THF
Just more crap from you, Straw44berry.
I didnt even open my mouth ?
Need glasses?
M69
On that photo I do see the manic grin too but wouldnt have spotted the saddle? my first thought was a camera case but it covers his white glove too.
Another tragic NATO “suicide” in Brussels today:
Serb NATO ambassador Milinkovic “jumps” from a ten meters high parking lot at Brussels airport.
http://rt.com/news/serbian-ambassador-nato-death-324/
quote:
“I met with him [Milinkovic] yesterday afternoon, I didn’t notice anything strange, he seemed in a perfectly good mood,” an anonymous source told Italian publication La Stampa. “I knew him well, this doesn’t make any sense, it’s totally inexplicable.”
Brussels prosecutor’s office said it was “sure that it was a suicide,” and will not be investigating the death further.
@Straw44berry
5 Dec, 2012 – 2:09 pm
I’m talking about the SOCO in white. The object is in his left hand, with a blue glove.
Other photos show a police officer holding a rectangular object wrapped in the blue covering.
@Straw44berry
5 Dec, 2012 – 2:09 pm
In the other photos posted above in that thread by wenlock29 you can see the police officer on the left hand side holding the tarp, probably folded up, rather than covering a rectangular object, while the SOCO in white is at the driver’s side door of the BMW.
Maybe this was something removed from the BMW?
Here’s the link you gave us again:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221659&page=72
Mochyn
This Mirror photo isnt the same photo and has a little more to the left and yes I now see what you mean, but I dont know.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shootings-pictures-of-bullet-riddled-1308571
Try not to sound patronising Straw44berry
5 Dec, 2012 – 7:21 am. You give a ref. to a VERY OLD Daily Mail article so what’s news? Are you referring to the headline “Philippe D. – not his real name” as justification for saying that “Philippe Didierjean” is also ficticious? You may well be right and his name may be John Smith but it would be unwise to base it on this DM headline. It could equally be referring to the abbreviated “D.”
It’s worth remembering that the “interview” was very stage managed as with WBM and the DM is reporting second hand from the Parisien interview presumably. Of course neither PD or WBM have been allowed to meet the press since. This report was a full six days following the events described, in fact his very existence was kept secret for five days. He is described as “living locally” so to a certain extent it can be understood in terms of protecting him. Others here have used it to support a theory of total fabrication.
One thing is clear, in the initial story it is reported as “Philippe and two women friends were driving towards the scene on their way to start an overnight trek into the mountains. As they approached Chevaline at around 4.10pm, a ‘terrified cyclist’ came hurtling towards them.” Note they are “APPROACHING Chevaline” i.e. not even there at 4.10 when they meet. Strangely this timeline later morphs to actually being at the crime scene after a garbled conversation 3/400 yards down the hill, and returning by car and on foot (here described as “Philippe, an experienced walker who lives locally, then ran up to the car park”). In other words there is a huge time disparity here between the initial report and later ones. In your minds eye calculate the time 4.10 approaching Chevaline, driving up the mountain road, meeting WBM, driving or running up to the crime scene to get the earliest time he could get to Martinet. Remember he has had five full days to get his story right. Could he be so wrong?
“‘I understood what was happening straight away,’ said Philippe. ‘I approached the car. I did not touch anything, but I could see there was nothing more to be done. There was no sign of life.'” It is interesting how quickly he “understood” and in stark contrast to WBM’s account which as a trained Pilot he took so long to make sense of the scene. Maybe WBM’s garbled description made all the difference to his speed of comprehension?
“A few seconds later, Philippe went back down the hill to call the emergency services. His was the first registered call to police.” This is the first time following WBM’s denial that he could get through, the official story changes to make Didierjean the first caller. However it still places the first call AFTER they had got to the crime scene. Then again the description “a few seconds later” is very puzzling. It has to be interpreted as referring the time it took to START back down the hill not the time it took to phone which must have been guaged in “minutes” at least. It specifically says he had to go “back down the hill”. We don’t know how far he had to go down the hill before he phoned but doing it “a few seconds later” would be totally incompatible with that description.
As others have noted here, just these discrepancies, strongly suggests attempts have been made to adjust the story line to cope with first the WBM denial that he made the call by introducing another character that may have done it, and then later further modification to take account of this story still not explaining the 3.48 call, which would have been quite impossible if they were only “approaching” Chevaline at 4.10. The first call at 3.48 has nevertheless been maintained.
Finally this report claimed “Witnesses have said they saw a green four-wheel-drive vehicle in the area at the time of the killings, and possibly a motorbike” WITNESSES? We only know of WBM referring to them. Who are the others? Then there is the quote: “Zainab will soon be shown photographs of the murder scene in an attempt to get her to identify the gunmen.” Oh at that stage it was “gunMEN” was it?
Branislav Milinkovic
Branislav Milinkovic received his Ph.D. at the Faculty of Law at the University of Belgrade, Department for International Law and International Relations. Since march 2004, he is the Special Envoy of Serbia’s (previously SaM’s) MFA to NATO. From may 2001 until february 2004 he was a permanent representative to the OSCE, UN and other international organizations in Vienna (september – december 2002: Chairman of the OSCE Forum for Security Cooperation). In 1996 he published “Media Freedoms”, in 1998 “European Security and NATO Expansion” and in 1999 “Cultural Rights”.
In a twitter message somebody talked about that Milinkovic was about to release hot documents regarding a Dutch NATO commander.
sorry to say it Katie
5 Dec, 2012 – 7:45 am but wrong again. I have discussed the marks on the bonnet several times and suggested a poss cause. Perhaps you dozed off?
Bluebird
5 Dec, 2012 – 2:16 pm “Brussels prosecutor’s office said it was “sure that it was a suicide,” and will not be investigating the death further.” Oh sure! How can one be sure it was suicide unless there are witnesses? There seems to be a lot of suspicious deaths around these days.
@BB
re: Mizrahim v Ashkenazim conflict.
An interesting background article here:
http://www.meforum.org/707/post-zionism-and-the-sephardi-question
Straw44berry
5 Dec, 2012 – 2:37 pm Geiger Counter? http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=geiger+counter&tag=googhydr-21&index=aps&hvadid=10152339166&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2370123881088897046&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&ref=pd_sl_4xo39j14gq_e
Tim V
The Daily Mail chose not to report it that way. But in Ghana liveghana.tv reported it that way, I moaned that the Daily Mail chose not to report what they knew while Ghana news decided to report it such.
I am for sure assuming the name Philippe D or Didierjean is nothing but a name thought up for the purpose and yes maybe even using the registration plate for the idea.
I wonder too if Zainab was shown the Brett Martin interview whether she would recognize him.
@Straw44berry
5 Dec, 2012 – 2:37 pm
The Mirror’s photo is also very interesting.
The police officer in blue in the foreground stretching out his arm, who I previously thought was pointing under the tarp cover, is in fact also holding a vertical brownish coloured object, a bit like a plank of wood.
I think the edge of this can also be seen in the DM’s photo.
@Tim
5 Dec, 2012 – 3:27 pm
I guess it could be a Geiger counter.
Any other theories?
tim V
There were actually witnesses:
There were the chief of the Serbian Intelligence Agency (BIA) plus the Serbian Second Minister for Foreign Security present (as well as their personal bodyguards) at the time when he was deliberately jumping from the garage roof. Obviously the prosecutors in Brussels did believe what they had said as much as the French did believe what BM had to say.