Not Forgetting the al-Hillis 22278

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The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.

Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:

the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?

The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.

Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:

Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.

There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.

But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.

The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?

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22,278 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis”

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  • Pink

    Right here’s a thought just musing.
    If SAH was further up the track getting himself into some bother with the drunk locals maybe Onf, 4×4,motorbiker, who would tell him he is off road then an “accident” occurs where a gun goes off and Zainab gets hit and Sah runs to car and gets shot in back which ends up with them all being shot ,the perps decide to move the car further away and tow it down to lay-by where it is not off road ,remember the gouges reporters talked about,Sm comes along and catches the action and gets shot ,they take out SAH to reverse car into layby laying alongside SM and then put back in (to account for blood).
    Motorbike man spots BM so they leg it drive downhill and turn right, back off road .
    Injured zainab is coming from above, around the hairpin chasing after car and staggers into layby just as BM arrives .

    Thats just a quick idea as I am off to work but wanted to plant a gist of an idea to think about maybe someone could try some other scenarios.
    BBL

  • NR

    Some junk food for thought, just for fun. If this was an extraction, an unlikely prospect at best, what if some or all of the SAHs were extracted (or eliminated) prior to Annecy. Anywhere along the way from Claygate to Reading but prior to their arrival at the campgrounds, where nobody would know them and any close lookalikes could pass?

    1. What if SAH was working for the British SIS, but they couldn’t trust him, or it was too dangerous for SAH and family to do the transaction at Martinet? They might disappear the SAHs and substitute their own people, including kids, the adults armed to take care of a bad turn of events, but it still goes wrong? (We don’t really know for sure that the killer(s) was using one handgun. He or she could have a machine gun plus. It’s EM that says it was one weapon.)

    2. What if the SIS extracted SAHs prior to Martinet and substituted some unwitting patsies, telling them to take an all-expenses paid (plus some) vacation in France? All they need do was follow a certain route through France and end up at Martinet at a precise time to deliver or receive something.

    3. Don’t think they wouldn’t put children in danger, if there were some huge global interest at stake like Iran/Israel, or BP getting natural resources in some vast area. Churchill allowed the destruction of Coventry, kids included, to avoid revealing to the Germans that Britain had cracked their codes. Besides, if the SIS are mixed up in stuff like Savile supplying kiddies to the elites for ritual sacrifices, it wouldn’t bother them to pull a couple of girls from an orphanage or pick two off the street.

  • James

    Maybe a stock picture ?
    The weather looks different (wet) and I don’t recognise the layout ?

  • bluebird

    James

    Katie did insist in that it did never rain in France, while we were discussing the roof and the thule 🙂

    Ricki Tarr
    Mossad and CIA often perform cooperate activities. Al Qaeda fighters are CIA mercenaries. In Syria there is a substitutes war between USA/NATO and Israel on one side and Russia/Iran on the other side. Therefore a cooperation of CIA/Mossad is most likely to happen.

  • James

    “The mayor toured the common elements to give us,” recalls Yves. “We hear that the car was burned, we do not know if this is true or not,”

    Fancy being refered to as “the common elements” !

    Anyway, that quote maybe because the “fire dept” was on scene.
    Or was it why they were called in the first place ?

    I would assume it is because the “fire dept” were on scene.
    That beggs the question, how did they get there ?
    I understand that “fire” is now “rescue” (like in The States, is this also true in France ?

    Whatever, they seems to have been massive confusion going down.
    The lcal fire and rescue chaps, then the “military” police, then the Grenoble forensics (who didn’t do anthing), then the Paris forensics….and then the judge followed by the mayor !

    Do they not have a “homicide” dept ????

  • Ricki Tarr

    If SAH and family where doing a flit, then wouldnt it be possible that the family used a Coyote as they do in Mexico, ive heard of a lot of cases where the people are killed after making the payment to the Coyote? just a thought!

  • Pink

    @James
    I have been having a look to see if I can find it but I keep getting lost 🙂

    But that photo looks like a “stock” picture. I can’t think of where it could have been (in relation to the D’Ire area).

  • katie

    BB I take it you mean I said it was dry at that time, not that it never rained in France ?

    Trust James to post a thunder storm which happened more than TWO months before the murders !
    There was a heat wave in August, winter rains started in mid or late September .

  • James

    Blue, Pink and Tim

    Another funny thing…
    Found a report quoting Eric. In it he says that the Paris Forensics arrived and that they found the youngest girl.

    Odd as he also said in another interview that during that questioning at the campsite “they” were told that there was another girl. This alert went out and a “helo” was sent (why not call the forensics ?) and they then opened the vehicle.

    Same man quoted. Two different explanations !

    @YouKonowWhoYouAre !

    You missed the “humour in Bluebirds post and my reply !
    You don’t know where I live, you don’t know where I visit and you assume (again) that I don’t know what the weather was like in late summer in that area ! Madness !

    “He probably knew the names of bad men in Iraq. hey knew him and he knew that they would get him. He calle Paris to get hlp but they said they couldn’t come. But to move and they would get to him”

    Where is that “laughing my head off” emotion icon !!! I need it !

  • Pink

    James I think they were a bit embarrased as I saw in another interview where he tried to make the time seem less without actually lying,I think the gist was they knew in 3 hours there was another child but they didnt find her until forensics came,I guess they were scanning the woods with the heatseeking stuff would that see her inside a car ?

    I have just been driving around Giez past the golf club it’s a nice area ,its a shame the google van didn’t go up every side turn so I just went in a circle and ended up back at the same roundabout I started from.

  • Tim V

    Try as I may Pink
    2 Jan, 2013 – 7:41 am your scenarios seem highly contrived and unsupported by any evidence known to us. “Drunk local” – where do you get this from? “Accident” with a firearm hitting Zainab? If an accident don’t you think SAH would have stayed with her and the person responsible show concern or perhaps run off? But continue to massacre everybody??? “Towing the car” to its eventual location? What with? Where the tow rope? With a motor bike? What were the female passengers doing whilst this was going on? If all the action happened up the road why all the bullets next to where the car was found? All too preposterous for words I’m afraid rather like your suggestion that SAH was beyond the prohibition sign looking for property to buy!!!!!!!! The final nail in your theory (did it pass you by?) SM was hit FIRST not last as you suggest, and when he was hit SAH and ZAH were physically next to him. What is your motivation for suggesting such a crazy theory?

  • James

    Tim…

    We don’t know if Mollier was shot first.
    It is was the French are saying.
    And yet the French (Eric) is acyually quoted as giving two different versions as to how the youngest girl was found.

    I would therefore suggested (due to that fact) that he (or they) should be treated with caution.

    If (IF) Laurent saw SAH pass hin at the time he said e did (in later reports) ay 14.40 and the shootings took place at the time it was suggested,15.30 then it would be fair to conclude that…
    A. SM was the prime target
    Or B. a mad man was indeed there and SM stumbled upon the scene after SAH had returned to his car, with the family…and the shootings had begun.
    And that could also mean that it was not a mad man, but that SAH was the prime target….and he (the gunman/gunmen) did not strike until they returned (or were grouped together).
    In which case I would assume they were followed (or that it was pre arranged, with the gunman/men lying in wait futher away and had to see SAH passby).

  • Tim V

    James
    2 Jan, 2013 – 12:08 pm First time I’ve seen this report as well timed only a little over 2 hours after the police arrived. What is curious is that the photo

    @ http://www.libertaland.com/2012/09/drame-a-chevaline-quatre-cadavres-decouverts-sur-un-parking/

    accompanying the article is clearly of somewhere else entirely. If it is of the crime scene then all subsequent photo’s must be false, which cannot be believed given the physical evidence at Martinet. Could there be TWO crime scenes though? I suppose we should bear in mind at no stage have we the public seen dead or injured where they have been described.

  • Tim V

    Pink
    2 Jan, 2013 – 4:27 pm yor vid @ http://www.wat.tv/video/retour-sur-chevaline-5h905_2i0u7_.html and this one @ http://www.wat.tv/video/tuerie-chevaline-seule-arme-591en_2i0u7_.html are both in French so most of the content lost to me. The guns shown are different though. The actual bit of the Luger that was found on scene is illustrated for the first time. A bit contrived that don’t you think. Just a little bit of distinctive Luger left on scene rather like the passport of one of the Hi Jackers on the New York street after 9/11. If it broke off when the gun was used to beat Zainab which was touted by the police, its rather strange I should say. And no mention of Zainabs DNA or the gunman’s? How could you damage the gun by striking her on the head and not get her blood on the very bit that would have been in contact?

  • James

    Tim…

    But is that a “stock” picture ?
    Did it rain there that day or evening ?
    I am thinking it didn’t. So that photo can be be relevant. It has to be “stock”.

    But with such an event, why use a stock photograph ?
    There must have been hundreds to buy that were syndicated, surely ?

  • Tim V

    Then there is the shots of person being led away under a blanket or shawl and all the people being interviewed. Anyone care to translate what they are saying? One woman speaks in English but her voice is masked by the French talk-over.

  • James

    “The Foreign Office confirmed British consular staff had arrived in Grenoble this morning and were heading to the scene to liaise with French authorities”.
    by Chris Attridge, Press… 9/6/2012 8:49:59 AM September 6, 2012 at 8:49 AM

    So who were the men that the “elements” saw in the evening ?

    NB It is interesting reading someones published “live” tweets as that day unfolded (and the next day).
    It’s like “live hindsight” so to speak !

  • Tim V

    I agree with you James
    2 Jan, 2013 – 8:13 pm that we have to treat everything coming from the french investigators with caution, including their deduction from the forensics that Mollier was shot first and that they returned to him for the fatal head shots. They give their conclusion but not how they come to it. However I give it credence simply because of Maillaud’s resistance to implicating Mollier as an intended target. The opinion coming from Paris scientists, that he was shot first, twice and most carries some weight and in pointing in the opposite direction and imposing inconvenient constraints on the police time frame and sequence of events makes me think it must be accurate. It means that the shooting couldn’t take place until Mollier had arrived to join Al Hilli’s. The suggestion that he got there first and the Al Hilli’s second just wont fit for reasons already rehearsed. Again I say the 3.15 photo can’t be true particulary if we believe the builders held them up for ten minutes.

  • James

    Pink…and Tim

    Just for the record, the 1st link you posted.

    The rear drivers side tyre is flat (1.02/1.03).

    If the vehicle was reversing at speed, in an arch, then that tyre would be facing towards the “prohibited” road….and always on the outer edge of a reversing arch.
    IF a shooter came out of the forest, shooting at the front of the vehicle…and then at the vehicle as it turned, he would not be able to hit this tyre (outside edge of the arch).
    And I doubt it would have deflated (to absolute flat) if it was A. a slow puncture or B. blown out by the rear wheels turning due to the car being in gear, but against the bank.

    So how did that tyre become flat (and I mean daamn flat !).

  • Tim V

    James
    2 Jan, 2013 – 8:53 pm I think we can distinguish the “twenty military types” that apparently were dispatched from the British Embassy on the 5th and arrived within hours of the event, and the consular staff in Grenoble. I think the latter were there because the girls were there. We have never had those 20 explained. The event is quite EXTRORDINARY AND UNPRECEDENTED as far as I am aware. The only analogy I can think of was Tony Blair’s 2000 intervention in Sierra Leone but I am quite sure there have been many special force covert operations we know nothing about. The thing is only exceptional circumstances could trigger this group. Only SAS or Marines would fill the bill unless there is a roving unit attached to Royal movements (Prince William and wife were holidaying in S France at the time) that were activated. It is certain that 20 specials are not permanently stationed at Paris, although joint exercises are increasing, so the question arises why were they there or were they flown over from Britain? There has been absolutely no explanation of why they were deployed and what they did from the MoD, though it has never been denied. This fact alone indicates how exceptional the circumstances were interpreted and that Al Hilli was no ordinary tourist and this was no ordinary murder.

  • Pink

    @ Tim V
    2 Jan, 2013 – 7:52 pm

    I did say it was just musing but I was working with what Holmes PT said that the perps were drunk and that the 4×4 and motorbike knew each other plus I have seen twice that the car was past the barrier I am not claiming any of its fact.

    I based the house hunting on the fact that SAH has a history of buying derelict property which his neighbour had been trying to buy and SAH was holding out for a higher price .

    I had previously considered that if SAH was thinking of relocating to Cern as was mentioned along the way then his trips out from the campsite might have been to estate agents .
    Near the second campside is a Mollier estate agent

    http://www.e-pro-immobilier.fr/haute-savoie/location-d-autres-biens-immobiliers/mollier-pierre-ernest_f1294019

    With SM being off work he could have had a sideline of showing people around property or helping out a relative so I thought it might also be a reason for them meeting in that Lay-by so ages ago I asked the question of whats around there that could be for sale.
    Now I have discovered the refuges and the barbus cottage I am wondering if any of those are on sale,the cottage especially as money is tight and there has been talk of privatization.
    My old man link showed that the shepherd hut plots can be used to build chalets if you can get one .
    It has been said SAH could be feisty so if someone started something he might not back away.
    Someone suggested that the gouges in the layby could be caused by a forest machine hence the towing idea .
    The blood pools look like two bodies so I moved SAH out of the car and back in again.

    Driving past the barrier to get closer to a property would not deter me I have been on forestry tracks in my car before ,I would also drive the wrong way around a car park if it got me where I wanted to be quicker ,some people wouldn’t dream of breaking a rule they would follow the arrows,I think SAH might like to go his own way based on his evaluation of a situation.
    I took all these ideas this morning and ran that post just as a muse the seed of an idea ,I thought it might get people thinking about it .
    I have not tried to refine it or prove it I just posted before I had to dash out because I was verging on being late for work 🙂

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