The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Had this been discussed before and if so, was it debunked? Or am I the first who saw this?
Is that Kadhim al Hilli?
http://www4.fao.org/cgi-bin/faobib.exe?vq_query=A%3DAl-Hilli,%20M.A.&database=faobib&search_type=view_query_search&format_name=@ELMON&sort_name=@SCHR&table=mona&page_header=ephmon&lang=eng
If it is Kadhim, then he was working in the exactly same science as the late Jack Drummond was working.
@Marlin: Thank you once again for summarizing the reasons this case continues to fail the sniff test.
I find it odd that France doesn’t seem to have CCTV anywhere. This is part of why I wonder if the al-Hillis stopped at a grocery store, perhaps in Doussard, along the way to the car park. Campers need to restock their supplies from time to time. Supermarkets usually have CCTV at the checkout counter. If supermarkets in France didn’t have CCTV last September, maybe they do now. I’m referring, of course, to the simultaneous explosions at seven supermarkets in Corsica a few days after the Chevaline incident of September 2012.
I still find it odd that we know they traveled to Switzerland and visited a bank, and yet we have heard nothing of CCTV images there. Nor, it seems, did any of the gas stations they must have visited have any CCTV images that we’ve heard about. How odd. How beyond odd, and utterly unbelievable. Did we ever hear anything more about CCTV at the ferry or border crossing to Switzerland? No, I don’t think so. It’s another dangling thread.
@Marlin: Counter to the usual police technique of getting CCTV images on the air and in print immediately when a person has gone missing, or when a suspect is sought, or a crime against people has been committed, we’re still waiting, more than four months later.
We are left to wonder if the al-Hillis ever left the U.K. at all, or if someone resembling the al-Hillis was seen by unreliable/disappearing witnesses, or even if anything happened at the car park on the Combe D’Ire, other than special effects.
We learned of the many holiday lets in Chevaline and area, perfect for someone who might want to travel there under a false identity, witness an event and leave.
Result: this story is still unbelievable from start to finish. That’s why we’re still talking about it. Even as a false flag it fails, because who did what, if anything, to whom?
@Straw44berry: Back to the bicycle. IIRC, Camping Europa was very close to a bicycle path, but the al-Hillis switched to a different campground, even though they had brought their bicycles.
@Straw44berry: Transporting nuclear materials by helicopter is nothing new. There was a high-profile case in Canada at Chalk River where such materials were transported to a nuclear facility by helicopter, over the perimeter fence and above the heads of protestors who were on the scene. A company spokesman wrote an article about how clever that was.
@Straw44berry: http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/cuckoo.htm
Regarding (nano)chemical weapons:
http://www.nanotech-now.com/news.cgi?story_id=30434
Chemical weapons have uses as pesticides. The helicopter crash killed a man who worked for a pest control company, Rentokil.
More: http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=27278.php
@Bluebird: Wasn’t AREVA caught up in a huge scandal over a uranium mine in Niger? Niger shares a border with Mali, Algeria and Libya.
Re: nanopores and chemical weapons. Maybe someone should start a list of nanotechnology researchers who have gone missing under mysterious circumstances. Case in point: Piotr Drabik.
Yet another aside regarding Rentokil:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-1722288/Rentokil-counts-cost-of-suspended-Libya-rat-contract.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/supportservices/9246356/Rentokil-eyes-return-to-Libya-as-rats-thrive-in-war-torn-country.html
http://www.ts-p.co.uk/our-services/chemical-poisoning-and-asbestos/other-toxic-substances
And an aside from the aside: mercaptan is leaking at Rouen.
Q
Arlit is in Niger, however, this is Sahara and in fact Tuareg region. There is no border. Arlik is geographically Niger, but politically it is Mali, Niger, Algeria, Lybia and Tchad as well.
They say that there is no border patrol possible and Arlit is very close to Mali.
The French war in Mali is because of Arlit because Arlit is the life for French energy production. If the CIA mercenaries would attack Arlit then it would be desastrous for France.
still fascinated and frustrated, but waiting for more clues. On 21.1.13 Marilyn Z Tomkins closed down her forum on Al Hilli.
A French forum {www.http://forums.france2.fr/france2/Non-elucide/tuerie-chevaline-savoie-sujet_216_17.htm} continues to rehearse similar issues to the UK. On 21.1.13 someone put up a link to the long series of unsolved killings in this region of France going back years {http://archives.lesoir.be/mysterieuses-disparitions-dans-les-alpes-du-nord-deux-j_t-19900627-Z02UPQ.html}
and there is to be a 52 minute TV programme on the Tuerie de Chevaline filmed in Haute-Savoie and Switzerland by Stéphane Bouchet and Herve Lavigne of Press Alert, co-produced by TF1 to be broadcast Friday, February 8 at 22 pm on 30 TMC in the show “Suspect No. 1” by Jacques Legros. Is it asking too much for a UK network to screen this later with subtitles?
Straw 8:41AM – Indeed, there are those mysterious “duplicates”. I am not so sure though about Zaid’s actual know-how area in the nanotechnology field. I forgot now (will check later) – does he have a PhD? your blackmail theory is a good – and imaginative – premise for the mystery novel to be written – some day it will – around the case. Alas, somehow I doubt we’ll get such a nice logical thread to tie everything together….we did, BTW, only have a couple of grainy photos for Zaid, didn’t we? were there more?
Pink 8:45 AM – thanks for the map link. I do recall seeing a whole lot of comments about the time it took WBM to get from his supposed starting point to the lay-by and that anyway it was sliced, it did not square with his own account of the time he started out and the time he arrived. I think I saw Tim V delve into that as well, being the resident expert on temporal vortexes. Similarly puzzling questions, if I recall, surrounded SM’s time of departure and presumed time of arrival. You can see why I keep urging Tim V to produce another epic (it’s easy to urge others, isn’t it?).
Q 2:33PM, 3:22PM – yes, those missing-in-action CCTV images. Indeed, we have seen none from anywhere. But that’s consistent with not being allowed to see any ohotographic image of 4 of the 5 victims from anytime. If there are some at the swiss bank, or a supermarket, or the campground, the official story-tellers are no more likely to share them with the public than they did that mobile photo. The only thing we know at this point for sure is that no photos of the victims can be leaked to the public. Which, as we all agree, is one of the aspects of this case that lead us to cast a most suspicious eye on just about anything officially disclosed. It is also one of the aspects that make the “psycho lone killer” theory paraded by the not-so-brilliant Maillaud to look utterly ridiculous on the face of it. Where is the intensive search for the psycho? the tips from an outraged – and scared – public? the blow-back from a worried tourism industry?
Also, Q, what you point out is true about us having absolutely no confirmation that the Al Hillis ever left England. Nothing was ever released about the departure date, CCTV pictures from the ferry, witness verification statements from BOTH campgrounds. A family was indeed seen there with children and a grandmother. But not from anyone who said they saw them before (OK, someone did say something about the Al Hillis frequenting the place, but it was just one person, another British individual, and if I recall, we had reason for doubting any real familiarity).
The bottom-line is this – we don’t in fact, know whether the ones we assume to be the Al Hillis that were killed so brutally at the Martinet were indeed them. Just like we can’t be sure about Mollier either. Which leads to one of the retorts I’d have for questioning the likelihood of an “extraction”” based on the complexity argument. Yes, it is a very complicated script to pull off on location and the question of why so far and why involve so many people remains a very valid one. But, if we entertain the possibility that an extraction of Al Hilli happened back in the UK – sometime before or just after they departed, and that everything else was staged on location, Hollywood style, then the complexity factor is somewhat mitigated. I’ll be the first to admit though that his particular speculation comes wrapped in additional mysteries since we still have to try to account for SM’s fate and the astoundingly fitting choice of the location for the shoot.
The people who know, the ones who planned and executed this particular event, are no doubt reading these pages at CM and DI and TMZ and chuckling big time, giving each other high fives for a play well-executed, ridiculing the underlying outrage that keeps propelling our dwindling numbers, and how far off the mark people sometimes stray. They – whoever “they” may be – probably also find the untimely passing away of Anders7777’s just another entertaining coincidental bit to spice an insufficiently eventful day. But i think we also got a few arrows to pierce the cover story and show it for the un-professional, poorly planned and put-together stagecraft that it was. If a play it all was, mounted for our collective benefit, it kind of fell flat and the reviews have been scathing. Ultimately, it is the audience gets its revenge for failed acts and mediocre productions – they can just boo.
Just another “strange” thought. Passports !
It is ordinary practice for a “campsite” (or hotel or whatever) to photocopy a passport of visitors.
If this was done, then why didn’t police see these copies and realise that there was a second child with the Al Hilli party.
And so investigate where she was ?
It was another holiday maker that said there was a further child.
When did that holiday maker give that interview to the police ?23.30 ?
Olifant – sorry to hear TMZ closed down her forum. I know she had some trouble with the logistics of long threads. What was the reason given? also, thanks for the link to the other forum and the heads-up about the up coming program – all in French though – darn….
Which reminds me once again that we should all thank Craig murray and his erstwhile moderators for keeping this thread open for as long as they have. It is, no doubt, a bit of trouble on their part, with memory allocation issues and all. So, along these lines, I will send another note of appreciation to CM – it’s been a definite public service, all in all considered.
Agreed, Marlin. Thank you for allowing this thread to continue, Craig, Jon and all!
On the lack of pics of the principals, SAH excepted. It’s not only no CCTV pics from “official” cameras, but none from shops either, and none from their fellow campers, who would be taking their own pics and might well have some with the SAHs at least in the background. Or pics from the girls’ school or from SAHs’ and SM’s relatives and friends.
In the first few days after the murder those would be salable to the media or people might have uploaded them on their own, just to say they were part of an exciting news story.
How did the authorities manage to suppress all that?
Sorry James
24 Jan, 2013 – 12:56 am I’ll add it. There are lots of questions. I posed 40 to the French months ago. This was an attempt at democratic brainstorming so that everyone on here can have a go if they want. The other idea was to try to take the issue forward if we can from a slightly incestuous consideration of our corporate belly button. (Excuse the mixed metaphors) If we still had an investigative press they would be posing these questions. I have always hoped that journo’s both here and in France have kept tabs on this site and others and will eventually step up to the plate. Early on the “Manchester Journo” made a fairly convincing statement that a specific “D-Notice” had been issued that might explain it but Kafka like we don’t know because we don’t know. I’ll add that question to the list as well I think. All questions still welcome.
*”French President” that was meant to be
It is significant that no-one on the French side has made any effort to explain the numerous factually or hypothetical errors or changes. This side of the channel there has been a quite deafening and untypical silence from the police, either to explain why the exceptional search of the VICTIM’S house was necessary or lines of enquiry being followed, that of itself screams intrigue.
@Tim V 24 Jan, 2013 – 11:12 pm
“This side of the channel there has been a quite deafening and untypical silence from the police, either to explain why the exceptional search of the VICTIM’S house was necessary…”
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2120221_france_shootings_search_at_claygate_home
“French officers arrived at the Oaken Lane property and, after the security alarm was disabled, they entered alongside teams from Surrey Police. Mr Maillaud said… “Up until now the police in Britain were guaranteeing the safety of the house, but now it’s a Franco-British inquiry that is starting and we can now enter the house of Mr Al-Hilli.”
This contradicts the theory that there was “something” of great importance that the British needed to find. Or if it was of great importance it wasn’t of great urgency.
Is this another mispeaking by EM, or misunderstanding and misreporting of what he said? Were the British police in the house previously and reset the alarm upon leaving, which EM takes to mean they’re all entering for the first time?
As usual Marlin
24 Jan, 2013 – 6:13 am I like your reasoning and pretty much agree as you will have worked out. I’m so much easier than the Public Prosecutor. I have no confidence in that 3.15 photo either. How disgusting would it be for a prosecuting authority to fraudulenty interfere with significant evidence to a mass murder? No wonder they don’t publish it or submit it to independent examination. Of course if the photo has been interfered with, the French justice system in relation to this case would be totally undermined and whoever is responsible for doing so, should themselves be prosecuted. The reason why I have no confidence in it is not limited to one reason either. First, the Fillion builders appear to be genuine, they are what they say they are, they have no axe to grind, there are several of them and they all appear to agree, the recall is detailed and accurate, they had to do something specific to allow the car to pass, the road is far from busy, the car was foreign, they had a reference point by which to judge the time (they had just finished a late lunch). This builds up to a convincing witness. They reported between 2.30 and 3.0 which of itself lends to voracity. They held up the car for an estimated ten minutes. If the 3.15 photo was accurate they couldnt have even reached the builders by 3.25 and they could not have been held up for even a second to be all dead by 3.30. It’s quite impossible. The only possible way out of this dilemma is Pinks suggestion that AFTER passing them, they went BACK to Arnaud and then back to Martinet. Is that really believable? I don’t think so. The second reason I have no faith in the photo is that even if we postulate “Pink’s Defence” there still wouldn’t be time. Its not just journey which might just be doable but all the other things at both ends. Getting a family into the car after the photo, getting out at the other end and significantly waiting for Mollier to arrive. Then the attack itself and all within 15 minutes from photo to DEAD. It’s RIDICULOUS! Then there is the time it took to “discover” the photo compounded by the secrecy surrounding it and the irrational and counter intuitive reason for with-holding it from public gaze. Finally if it was genuine, the Al Hilli’s would have to have passed Martin cycling up the hill and the killers would have had to be right behind them. . There is no way round it. Neither are credible. Strange as it may seem I prefer to believe a builder over a lawyer on whom the obligation of justice rests.
Oh and if they went to Arnaud AFTER passing the builders, don’t you think Maillaud would have already have postulated it to get himself off an inconvenient hook? A bit like the the 3.48 – no apology; no explanation.
Now Marlin as to your search for a reason why French authorities might wish to undermine Fillions testimony and the accuracy of his account. Is it not enough that it would prove, or strongly indicate, that in the absence of picnic or walk, the only other reasonable explanation for at least half an hour at the lay by, would be a MEETING. We already know that Maillaud was anxious to 1. deny there was a meeting 2, that Mollier and Al Hilli were meeting 3. that Mollier had anything to do with the murder other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Trouble is if the Al Hillis don’t even set off from Arnaud until after 3.15 Mollier could not “come on the scene” – he would be there first. Could it also be to try and put time between a leaving forestry vehicle and the BMW. If Al Hilli was in the lay by by at least 3 (maybe a bit before) a forestry vehicle going down the hill past Martin, as Maillaud has in fact claimed, then it MUST have passed the BMW.
“Reacting to statements by non-governmental organisations (NGOs) on the health and environmental consequences of uranium exploitation in northern Niger, he said Areva plans to invest about 540 billion francs CFA [US$ 1.1 billion] in the well-being of people living in the affected area. (Africast May 3, 2007)”
Oh yes?!!!!!
Olifant
24 Jan, 2013 – 6:07 pm I left a message on the Canal + channel previously mentioned requesting English sub-titles. I don’t know if they will oblige. That was a lengthy programme now TFI. This in contrast to British media so far. I think only Radio 4 ran a programme some months back. Interestingly that Canal + edition repeated Mollier/Zainab body positions but had new ones for the bullet shells which were scattered all over the ground on the nearside in contrast to all other graphics which showed them outside the rear passenger off side door. Some may remember i challenged this info. as it would be virtually impossible to a Luger to eject to the laft of the shooter. Is this another example of the Frenches subtly changing the evidence to accommodate unchallengable objections?
Also another thing I noticed they had long interviews with his neighbour who stressed family dispute and with a Parisien journalist. The neighbour spoke English but was over dubbed so diffilt to hear, the journo spoke French so again no good for me. But striking possibly that Parisien used twice, first time by “Didierjean” who seems to have no corporeal existance, and that programme. Just like Martin, the interviews were selectively staged. Is Parisien a known outlet for Govt agencies I m wondering? What do we know about it politically? As for British side I have never seen a stranger interview scenario, it was positively George Smilely.
From the How-it-Works department. SNC-Lavalin is reburnishing it’s image. They hire good people to also insure no skeletons accidentally escape from closets.
“Hershman, a former special agent with U.S. military intelligence, is president and chief executive officer of The Fairfax Group, a Virginia-based company that assists governments, corporations and financial institutions in matters relating to the conduct of senior-level officials and/or the entities with which they do business.”
“The company already had retained the Freeh Group International Solutions, an independent global risk-management group with expertise in business ethics, governance and complicance. Founded by former FBI director Judge Louis J. Freeh, it’s been working with the company since last fall.”
http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Lavalin+takes+steps+reform+tainted+image/7866546/story.html
What’s happened to the friend of Jill Kelly, shirtless FBI agent Humphries, who, though schooled in Ontario, Canada, spoke French well enough to interrogate terrorists and distinguish their Algerian accents from Quebecois.
Q 3.29PM (24/1)
Thanks re Helo’s already carrying hazardous materials. So what was significant about EADS’s Bluecopter then…..?
Maybe it means that unlike regular helicopters the Bluecopter doesnt need to contain any hazardous material to fly. I must say I didnt think they did but…… from the Vauxhall crash:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9805612/Helicopter-crashes-into-crane-two-dead-in-Vauxhall-rush-hour-accident.html
Peter Cowup, assistant commissioner at London Fire Brigade, said: “One driver was able to get out of his own free will and leave the scene. He was injured but we understand he’s fine.”
He added: “Aircrafts and helicopters do contain hazardous materials. There is no reason for anyone to be afraid of hazardous materials in the air.”
I am still mystified over why they would highlight this which is only a problem if the Bluecopter was to crash and if “There is no reason for anyone to be afraid of hazardous materials in the air.” Or is that a lie?
From Scotland Yard Blog:-
http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2012-09-08T14:57:00-07:00&max-results=3&reverse-paginate=true
LE FIGARO–SEPT 06, 2012
“Do not defile the perimeter”
Alerted to 17 h 04, sixty investigators immediately cordoned off the area by installing a security tape and guard static sanctuaries place within a radius of one kilometer. By concentric movements from further closer to the car, dozens of military departmental group, and a squadron of gendarmes called in, have embarked on a methodical sweep, yard by yard, to identify any evidence potential or abandoned by the killers (weapon, socket, piece of paper or cloth, butts …).
Each object is assigned to suspect sampling a group leader or the “forensic coordinator” who oversees all acts of forensic science. A helicopter equipped with thermal and infrared cameras flew over the area.
A team of 26 specialists
From 23 hours, while the “precursors” of the Criminal Investigation Unit of Haute-Savoie were the first findings of Forensic Science, 26 experts were dispatched to Rosny-Sous-Bois. In addition to ballistics experts, analysts, micro-powder residue, an entomologist responsible for the death date, experts drive department vehicles and connoisseurs of the overlap between criminal part of the trip.
Throughout the night, the powerful light balloons functioning as artificial neon, these bloodhounds and gloved in white coats from the Criminal Research Institute of the National Gendarmerie (IRCGN) – was the first helicopter-sift fifteen cases seems he fired automatic weapons.
Using halogen lamps, they inspect wounds and punctures, studying the trajectories of projectiles or the tire tracks. Equipped with micro-projectors type “crimelight” they sweep the interior of the car reveal ultraviolet any form of biological traces. The body should be extirpated turn the car by Thursday evening before being transported to the Institute of Forensic Medicine (IML) in Grenoble before being autopsied Friday. For the moment, no “profile” that the police call “behavioral scientist” not visited there. Unlike the Anglo-Saxon, French investigators use more know-how when a suspect is in the crosshairs.
———————-
Every item they said they would look for sits on the crime scene as soon as its opened. If it listed a pink elephant we would probably have press photos of that too.