The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Good sleuthing BB Bluebird
23 May, 2013 – 8:23 am
I have come to the opinion it is not “Muslim Terror” we need to be principally afraid of, but clandestine hand of Government, often covertly behind outrages credited to others. This is a secret parallel universe to the TV world of politics and advertising populated by shadowy figures and spooks.
Both in America and Britain, the agenda appears to be towards curtailing existing freedoms and legal protections; increasing the power of the state; and an ever more quasi-militaristic (we saw in in Boston, we saw it in London); centrally controlled policing; all on the back of “terror” incidents and threats.
Not that the existing restraints on executive power has proved that effective when individuals can be abducted, imprisoned, tortured and killed without any legal process or proof of guilty action. (Where is the American public’s outcry over two Boston-related deaths whilst in police custody?) That is why I am wary of this latest incident in Woolwich.
Why must it be labelled in all media outlets as a “terror attack” before it is properly assessed? That immediately raises a big question mark in my mind. Why is it not a “racialist attack” or more prosaically a “nasty violent murder by two deranged individuals of African descent”? “Deranged” we might think they must be, but then we see them performing to camera and talking civilly to a woman who bravely intervened. Strange. Very strange.
Now we must wait and see whether the ubiquitous, bespoke, frustrated, Theresa May will use the incident to beat poor old Clegg into submission over her security Bill?
Do we send out a general alert for NR Marlin? I can’t believe he would have lost interest in this site or topic. Mind you I got similarly concerned about you once and you popped up again so lets hope he has taken a leaf out of your book.
Let’s hope, as they say in theatrical circles (not wholly inappropriate considering – see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/10074050/Intelligence-archive-Cross-dressing-spy-who-caused-a-headache-for-British-masters.html) he’s “just resting”.
Tim V, 6:44PM – thanks for the correction on Paine. of course that’s who I meant – sometimes I just get carried away with a trail of thought and can’t be bothered to do internal memory bank checking. I knew it didn’t look right but was in too much of a hurry to move on to the next pasture. All I can say for myself is that it isn’t the first or the last time this happens. just don’t hold it against me if i get the Windsors all wrong sometime soon (yes, i once spelled it vindzor but that i think was a freudian slip – me not explaining). Do keep tabs on me, by all means.
@ Bluebird further to the Dean Henderson site from your first link to it:
http://www.whale.to/b/rm4.html
From strange to stranger.
Tim V 1:44PM. Yes, i think we should by all means send an all bulletins alert for NR (you seem to know it’s a “he”). I really liked his sense of humor and quips which were one of the things that kept me following this thread even before i started posting (as were your analytic and careful take-aparts and BB’s and Q’s incredible research skills and james’ rather unique perspectives – and others too, like Pink, ferret and Straw44berry who unfortunately don’t post much any longer). Yes, posters periodically disappear – some lose interest and some have simply said all they had and can’t do much more without new facts or event turns, that’s just the nature of things for all true conspiratorialists. For me it’s almost always work that gets in the way (sorry about that – can’t be helped) rather than waning interest. However, we must not forget that things can happen in the world to all of us humans (no, we are not immortal, in case you have been wondering all this time, and no, it isn’t ALL mossad’s fault). And NR seemed to be really steadfast and consistent over a very long run – much more than I ever was, plus seemed to be very good about responding to questions and I posed a request for him before he went away to regions unknown. I checked and he has also not posted on MZT.
Bluebird, 8:23AM. That is really weird. I have to see how this might fit with my cross-intersecting double agency theory (the one where the Russians kind of run circles around the FBI AND the CIA, both egging them on and running interference)
Q
23 May, 2013 – 8:29 pm – is there any chance you could summarise that ref. and which thread it relates to. I read it briefly and it looks as if they were badly used by CIA but I know very little about it.
Marlin
23 May, 2013 – 8:38 pm – you are right to point out my assumption that NR was male. I do not know other than women have no sense of humour!!!!!!!!!! Seriously though, maybe we should have a system whereby if we are unfortunate enough to fall under a bus, someone who knows will notify the room. At the moment anonymity to each other (though not to the SSs) means there’s no way of knowing.
Then whilst I’m at it a couple of points about Woolwich. It turns out these two “jokers” “were known to British security. A parallel with Boston? One was well known as a public speaker and giving out literature. Parallel with Lee Harvey Oswald? Boston shocking street terror; Woolwich street terror. Both two alleged assailants. In both shot by police – one survives, two survive. In both “non-typical” Muslims. Both appear naive and a certain disconnect – in the Woolwich case acting non-aggressively after the event and making no attempt to run.
Then finally many have referred to the ITN “exclusive” recording of Adebolajo waving his cleaver with bloodied hand (though no clothes staining (as with Chevaline?)) What I would like to know is who filmed him – professional or amateur? If actually ITN, how come they were there (at the time)? Can we, should we, take this event at face value? Is it beyond the realm of possibility, knowing what we know, that it was staged – i.e. these people were following instructions from some quarter?
Tim v
I am, like you, suspicious about the person who filmed the guy with the bloody hands and swinging the butcher knive. If i were a bystander, i would not film him but RUN!
Either this was one person of their own gang whose duty was filming this or else he talked to a CCTV cam.
Interesting essay by late Alexander Litvinenko regarding Chechens, FSB and the Russian Mafia in connection with the now late Boris Berezovsky.
http://rusmafiozi-eng.blogspot.co.at/2011/04/end-of-chechen-mafia-guy.html?m=1
One Nesterova girl and the Russian mafia in Boston?
http://m.skegnessstandard.co.uk/news/crime/we-were-made-to-do-it-by-russian-mafia-1-1595942
Imho what we are seeing here is the elimination of “team Berezovsky” while al Hilli might have been one of his Iraqi related team members.
Berezovsky’s main business were abductions and ransom money fraud (and the French paid, too).
Bluebird
24 May, 2013 – 8:30 am The Times reported Thursday that the “ITV Exclusive” film of man with an axe, was in fact taken “on a mobile phone by a man on his way to a job interview”. It would be interesting to know what the job was? Did he give ITV the phone when they arrived or offer it to them subsequently? He obviously didn’t hang around as they had processed and edited it in time for the evening(?) news. People are so computer savy these days I suppose he could have had it running beforehand and without looking through the viewfinder but a man coming towards you with bloodied hand, wielding a cleaver, who it appears has just hacked a man to death, and you don’t RETREAT? Now that is either very brave, or very foolish unless….
Russia, by general consent, is a “Mafia State”. Is it getting better or worse we don’t know. Chechnia was hardly reported here and the West stayed out as a “quid pro quo” for Iraq. The Russian Mafia has certainly come to Britain and particularly London property/sport. Since Litvinenko it has spilled over into extreme violence. Do we hear much about this threat? “Not a lot”.
That’s Russia. In America there is a long history of links between the mob and security forces that played an important part in the death of the Kennedies et al. Now in Boston east meets west. Russia/America/ Chechnia/ FSB/CIA/FBI/ Muslims/Christians – throw them all in the mix. But definately what you have NOT got in Boston or Woollwich as far as we can see, is any mention of “Al-Qaeda” have we? So where does that leave “the war on terror”?
@ Tim V: The tale of Gunther and Rayelan is convoluted. It’s hard to know what is fact and what is fiction, but perhaps the most important thing to note is that very strange things happen when one is connected to certain people in high places, tied to world events that come under considerable scrutiny in world media.
I should mention for relevance that it has been reported that Gunther claimed to have been involved in some sort of CIA training in Waco, Texas, involving mind control. That’s Waco, as in the siege on the Branch Davidian and the recent fertilizer plant explosion in the nearby town of West, FWIW.
“Waco” is the word! Governments ridicule “conspiracy theorists” and it works as a ploy to hide the truth. However fact IS stranger than fiction. Now, surprise, surprise, we learn that one of the Woolwich attackers (at least) was not only known to MI5, but actively pursued to work for them. We don’t know whether he acceded to the request. Apparently on a trip to Kenya (who paid and for what purpose) he was physically and sexually abused. The friend who reported this for the BBC Newsnight programme, was arrested by MI5 immediately afterwards. So neither “Al Qaeda” or “conventional” murderer then. There is surely more to this savage tale than meets the eye?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10080130/Friend-of-Woolwich-attack-suspect-arrested-moments-after-BBC-interview.html
and where have we heard this before? perhaps it’s the rational response to all extreme events?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10074385/Woolwich-machete-attack-like-something-out-of-a-film-says-eyewitness.html
and the plane escorted by a fighter jet to stanstead after two men repeatedly tried to access the flight deck?
Woolwich attack: MI5 ‘offered job to suspect’
Abu Nusaybah: “They (MI5) asked him if he’d be interested in working for them”
Continue reading the main story
Woolwich attack
MI5 asked Woolwich murder suspect Michael Adebolajo if he wanted to work for them about six months before the killing, a childhood friend has said.
Abu Nusaybah told BBC Newsnight his friend – one of two men arrested after Drummer Lee Rigby’s murder in south-east London on Wednesday – had rejected the approach from the security service.
The BBC could not obtain any confirmation from Whitehall sources.
Abu Nusaybah was arrested at the BBC after giving the interview.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468
Now, there’s a surprise.
Next he’ll suddenly turn extremely violent just as he’s about to sign his confession and be shot..
@Tim V 25 May, 2013 – 1:16 am
Exactly.
They need to get a new script writer!
@Tim V 25 May, 2013 – 1:16 am
Alternatively, they should ban ‘movies/films’ as they seem to be spawning a disproportionate amount of violent terrorist activity these days!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/25/woolwich-suspect-kenya-torture
Mochyn69
25 May, 2013 – 5:45 am
“Abu Nusaybah is connected to extremists formerly in the banned group al-Muhajiroun” apparently. Special Branch arrested him immediately after the interview under the Terrorism Act “for unrelated terrorist activity” as reported by the BBC.
The question is would we have been aware that MI5 tried to recruit Michael Adebolajo without the former’s observations. And second, was he arrested at that particular time and place because of past offences or to prevent any further revelations?
I can’t help thinking that the two aeroplane incidents and Woolwich, raise a question as to their cause and origins. Were they just accidental, unrelated, spontaneous events, or did they have some dark hand behind them as a concerted effort to create fear and enable policy objectives?
After recent and past American events, we have to consider this a possibility, whether internally or externally inspired.
The other aspect that cannot be overlooked apropos earlier comments above, is the potential embarrassment caused to MI5/6.
Was the barbaric act of these two (not so far removed from that of Chevaline in quality if not in technique) wholly encapsulated within their respective skulls or were they following instructions of others? Is hypnosis such an outlandish possibility?
If tortured in Kenya, what were the consequences? Was a Faustian pact entered into then? People seldom say “No” with electrodes attached to their nether regions.
As with Chevaline, IN Woolwich we are faced with STRANGENESS.
1. Why was it IMMEDIATELY announced by Government sources presumably, as a TERRORIST attack. Of the 640 know murders in the UK in 2011/12, how many were announced as such? Why not the assumption that this was an isolated violent knife crime by mentally deranged individuals? COBRA recalled for a murder?
2. Struck first by a car then attacked suggest an element of planning. The victim had to be identified, a location, a changing situation with vehicle and person moving. Not necessarily that easy to get the unfortunate “right” person at all.
3. The contrast between the extreme violence to the victim and the total absence of any apparent threat or violence to the many who gathered around and even engaged the the attackers in conversation. Quite bizarre! Almost as if having fulfilled a mission there was nothing more to do. As if they were automatons that had reached the end of their programming! Nusaybah said “His word was, ‘They are bugging me,'” which can be taken in a number of ways.
4. The questions surrounding the composure and sang froid of the “man on his way to an interview” filming a highly dangerous individual. Not least so steadily! No camera shake or movement even! Then the way it quickly became “ITV Exclusive”. Why? How? Was it bought?
5. The role of the police. Twenty minutes to arrive may seem about right. But they came multiply armed. Are all London police armed these days or did they have time to rush back to the station to get firearms issued? Or was this an armed response unit on permanent patrol in case of such incidents. These details are crucial in assessing whether the attack was in some way expected.
6. The action of the police when they arrived was very akin to the Boston experience. There appears little evidence of negotiation or intent to tackle by other means (taster or truncheon) After all the cleaver had been dropped and I don’t believe it has been suggested they were armed. No one heard them challenged, instructed or warned at the point of a gun. They may not have responded but were they given the opportunity? Police shoot to kill so we must assume that was the intention. Like the Boston case, two suspects were shot by police when effectively they presented little further danger. In both, perhaps contrary to expectations, three survived and are now under hospital arrest.
7. Are two aircraft incidents receiving wide publicity related, part of what may be called an attempted propaganda “package”. We shall have to wait and see about that.
8. The timing is somewhat suspicious. Theresa May who it appears has her own agenda as regards increased powers and a bid for the Premiership itself leading the right wing of the Conservative party, called and chaired the first meeting of COBRA whilst David Cameron was (conveniently?) out of the country.
9. Finally Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the surviving suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing, was charged with using a weapon of mass destruction. However nasty the event, don’t you think that is a tad “over the top” rather suggesting a manipulation of public opinion (leaving aside the rather inconvenient fact that he still had his back pack having left the scene!) At Woolwich clearly the official line is that this is “the first act of terrorism in Britain since 2006”. Not just another nasty, bloody, unjustified knife crime, of which there have been many hundreds since that date then?
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468
But he said the police and the security services were “particularly concerned” about people travelling from Britain to conflict areas such as Mali, Syria and Iraq and the increase in extremist websites.
+++
Link already posted before, but repeated for that quote above.
So they were concerned about Saad when he travelled to Iraq?
Btw., the whole Woolwich event stinks as much ad Boston, Sandy Hook and Chevaline is stinking. Otherwise we would not discuss those events.
Today chapter 2 follows in France:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/05/25/french-soldier-stabbed-neck-paris_n_3336633.html?utm_hp_ref=world&ir=World
May 25th: MUSLIM attack confirmed French daily Le Parisien cited police sources saying the suspect was a bearded man of North African appearance, about 30-years-old and wearing an Arab-style garment under his jacket. He stabbed a French soldier.
This may interest people here = last week there was an episode on NCIS series (Naval Criminal Investigation something…) that had a “rogue” American intelligence outfit (leaving one to guess which) that was instigating False Flag operations. I don’t normally watch these series (which are just way too conveniently tied up and with too many cheer-leader-look-alike detectives for my taste) , but I believe that this is a bit of a first for a mainstream US series. Usually they like to have their good-vs-bad plot lines rather simplistically drawn (bad guys arabs or persian or white supremacists) so as not to challenge the audience’s presumptions/prejudices/brain power too much. Ambiguity is reserved for British shows, right? (I did kind of like that MI5 series – what little i saw of it in repeats, except that too many of the main characters are offed too often – probably because they didn’t pay enough to the actors for them to stay on the show??).
What this means – given that all these shows rip their plot-lines from the headlines – is that the false Flag concept has penetrated quite deeply into the national consensus. Conspiracy “buffs’ may be found now equally on the left and right, and even in the center. As trust in government has been slowly but surely evaporating, even die-hard skeptics have become more open to entertain previously heretic thoughts.
Tim V 3:40 PM. Great summary of all the oddities in this case – effort much appreciated (gosh, i really hope more people out there get to read this). Now, following application of simple tools of analysis, just summarizing the facts that appear somewhat odd, what logical person, even one not inclined to conspiracy weaving, will not end up at least wondering what the heck is going on? IOW, one or two odd facts can be chucked to coincidence. Three can be called a “black swan” event. But 5 or 6 or 7 or 10? really?
And once people, just ordinary people with ordinary logic, start wondering about the truth of what they are told by the powers entrusted to protect them, it becomes a potentially dangerous development for the PTBs.
And that’s why ALL conspiracy weavers must be tainted and painted with the same brush. marginalized as much as possible – no matter how small or remote the precipitating event is.
As an article in the NYTs today kind of does or tries to do (link later). having analysed, more or less reasonably, what lies behind the sharp increase in conspiracy buffs, it goes on to contend- effectively – that all conspiracies are wrong all the time. it’s worth reading just to see what we are all up against.
Orwell, Orwell, where art thou when we need you?
Another great artcle by the inmitable Glenn greenwald in The Guardian. Please however, scroll down to the update: all comments on the Woolwich attack were deleted, not just from his previous day article.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/25/andrew-sullivan-distortion-terrorism-woolwich
Now, who is the conspiracy theorist?
I really need NR to comment on this state of the affairs for a little uplifting, and red hair finding.
Adebowala was a member of the Woolwich boys gang.
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/topstories/1520864.0/?act=complaint&cid=397253
Police have admitted gangs of youths are fighting a “turf war” in south London.Officers across Greenwich, Lewisham, Southwark, Lambeth and Croydon are working together to combat the problem.Greenwich borough commander Chief Supt Chris Jarratt says his officers are focusing on the Woolwich Boys, the Younger Woolwich Boys, the Cherry Boys from Charlton and T Block in Thamesmead.Mr Jarratt says the gangs are fighting for power, leading to increased violence against one another.He said: “Greenwich hasn’t had the deaths of other boroughs but it’s only through poor aim or the skill of surgeons we haven’t.”Police are working with Greenwich Council and community groups to deal with the problem, which Mr Jarratt says has grown worse over the past year.He added: “I think there’s a growing desire for people to make money quickly and also for people to have something to latch on to.”Sometimes people think gangs can give them both of these things.”The admission of a gang problem follows a spate of violent incidents.Ben Hitchcock, 16, died after he was stabbed in a fight in Southend Road, Beckenham, on June 23.Eyewitnesses described youths wielding metal chains, poles and pick-axe handles in the fight, thought to have involved two gangs from Penge and Lewisham.
In the early hours of June 23, youths, believed to be members of the Woolwich Boys and T Block, fought outside the Mermaid club in Woolwich High Street.Two 16-year-olds were stabbed and gang members then took part in a running battle across General Gordon Square in Woolwich town centre, using metal rods and rubbish bins as weapons.One victim was stabbed multiple times and was left with a punctured lung.Two people were arrested on suspicion of causing an affray and released on police bail.A further fight in Charlton Road, Charlton, on June 27 is thought to be linked to the Woolwich attack.One victim required around 70 staples in his head after he was repeatedly hit with a hammer inside a convenience store. He also suffered 14 stab wounds.Outside, youths believed to be from the Woolwich Boys and the Cherry Boys fought using cricket bats, golf clubs and knives.Twenty one people aged from 15 to 20 were arrested at the scene.Four of these were bailed pending further inquiries.Two were charged with attempted murder and 15 with violent disorder The 17 who have been charged will appear at the Old Bailey on October 5.On June 25, a 20-year-old university student was stabbed at least four times in the back after being attacked by a gang of up to 10 youths, believed to be from Kidbrooke’s Ferrier Boys gang.The attack happened next to the McDonald’s restaurant in Eltham Road, Eltham.Several doctors battled to save the man’s life and he is now expected to make a full recovery.Two 16-year-olds and a 19-year-old have been charged with attempted murder.Another 19-year-old is wanted in connection with the attack.In a bid to tackle youth violence, the Met Police launched Operation Curb on June 29.London boroughs will be targeting known gangs using increased patrols by officers and PCSOs.People under 20 who are involved in serious violence will be the focus of borough intelligence teams.Officers will use an intelligence database to discover who gang members are and understand what drives them to commit crime.Met Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said: “This is not something police can tackle in isolation.”Families, schools, communities, and authorities have an extremely important role to play in preventing and tackling these dreadful crimes.”
—-
The Woolwich Boys are so famous that a movie was made
http://ivymunro.com/food-a-home/69-restaurants/308-woolwich-boys-
More on his father:
adeniyi adebowale
civil servant at Nigeria High Commission
Location United Kingdom
Industry Government Administration
Mother was a director of the Adun Charity Foundation.
I cannot stop thinking about the strong similarities with the Tsarnaev brothers history regarding relatives in government administration and the boys allegedly getting ugly and criminal (as we were told).