The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Bluebird
13 Jun, 2013 – 10:07 am – Well fancy that!
I don’t know why this blogger has Saad al-Hilli and Surrey Satellite Technology in the tag line of this entry from February 2012. The blogger’s latest entry is dated June 7, 2013:
http://baseball91.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/swift-movement-against-iran/#comments
@ Tim V: Yes, the Peugeot parked at the “Mairie Chevaline” next door to Sylvie Lecoeur’s house remains a big question. Sylvie said she saw a white Peugeot, either a 206 or a 306, and voila: Google Streets showed one. Swarthy men reading map (?), possibly Eastern European, in sketchy van on the same property, were a plus. That was before the “young woman” Sylvie was edited into a man.
It was somewhat amusing to realize that the latest news on the al-Hilli case “feed the conspiracy” plot line leaves us to wonder not only if Philippe Bossy was up at Chevaline in his duties with EADS/Eurocopter, but whether he was involved with high-end jewels or real estate, all of which “feed the conspiracy” and play into the al-Hilli story rather well.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Philippe/Bossy
No wonder the Didierjean name was changed to Bossy, quite aside from the cows. The jewel angle could tie the al-Hilli story in with the case of the Mastros, who were caught with a large number of jewels in a town near Chevaline, and thereby might drag in the FBI, and possibly even the shirtless, fluent French-speaking agent Fred Humphries. The Mastros are free in France at the moment.
http://seattletimes.com/avantgo/2021123625.html
What a tangled web they weave.
Mirror announces new “Philippe Bossy” (formerly known as Didierjean) version of the Chevaline murder story on June 3, 2013. Two days later, French courts deny the American extradition request for Linda and Michael Mastro.
What really happened in that parking lot at Chevaline?
That’s what we’re all trying to work out Q
14 Jun, 2013 – 8:11 pm and the Police arn’t helping. At some stage someone (who?) needs to ask them why.
Tim V, you are quite the patient person. Don’t forget the account by WBM himself. Sorry I am a bit too busy to offer much help yesterday or today. I do recall we have discussed – extensively – the question of which way cars were going earlier on this thread, as I posed the question myself (believing it to have been satisfactorily answered).
Thanks Marlin. Trouble is virtually everything is internally contradicted and the fact that neither French or British wish to clarify and give a definitive version says something quite profound. It says it is NEITHER of their interests to do so! This is quite contrary to what one would expect of a murder enquiry, when times, dates and significant happenings, are almost invariably put out there at an early opportunity.
The first reports by Maillaud state that WBM gave a detailed description of the vehicle, yet later both he and WBM in his TV contradict this, saying he didn’t take much notice. Early reports said it went past him at speed which would have surely required him to go off the metalled surface or take other avoiding action. Later he says there was nothing untoward their driving style. The vehicle changes colour, make and whether left or right hand drive. A small Peugeot 206/306 becomes a four wheel drive. Apart from the fact that as far as I know, such an animal does not exist except in specialist guise, an ordinary witness would never be able to tell. The statement does not make sense on any level. The original BBC report puts WBM arriving at 3.50 and immediately making the initial call. Then from his own interview it is obvious he must have arrived ten minutes before that at least. Now from the statement he was a kilometre up the Combe we can confidently infer he arrived not later than 3.35 when shots were heard at 3.30. If that vehicle was the killers, (for who else could it have been given they haven’t come forward?) it had only minutes to spare to arrive and shoot. If they did park up it could only have been momentarily before they attacked. Then when WBM denied making the 3.48 call the only other person who could would have been Didierjean/Bossy. Now the problem is getting WBM to meet him by 3.48 at the latest. Tricky because you have to alter the time D/B was initially said to arrive and factor in extra time for WBM to get to him and explain what’s happened. This is quite infeasible but if for arguments sake we say he does, this creates a secondary unresolved problem: his adamant statement that nothing had passed him going the other way as he climbed the Combe for which we must deduct at least ten minutes from 3.48 – so 3.38 at the latest. If we know the killers could not set off until just after the 3.30 shooting ceases they would not be clear of the Combe until 3.40 at the earliest. D/B must therefore of necessity crossed paths by my reckoning if they were on the same road as WBM attests. Work that one out. lol
An Egyptair plane from Cairo to New York has landed at Glasgow Prestwick Airport after being diverted.
The Boeing 777 – which was travelling to JFK International Airport – touched down at around 14:30 BST.
Air traffic control said action was taken following “a problem”, and that standard procedure had been followed.
An eyewitness told the BBC he saw two RAF Typhoon fighter jets escort the plane into the airport, in Ayrshire.
The Ministry of Defence confirmed in a statement that Typhoon aircraft were called from RAF Leuchars and that “a passenger aircraft was diverted following an incident on board.”
Now who just “happened” to find the threatening note that set off the emergency? Why it was a BBC reporter who was able to speak to the BBC newsroom direct on her mobile from the plane “live” to report the chaos.
“BBC producer Nada Tawfik, a passenger on board, found a note in the plane’s toilet with the words “I’ll set this plane on fire” and a seat number.” She spoke with a distinctly American drawl.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22920907
Walid al Hilli – Any relation?
from 2004 “However, mediators say they have clearly told the Americans what could happen if troops are sent into the Shias’ holiest city – such an action could permanently alienate Iraq’s Shia majority – and more.
“If the Americans invade Najaf, it won’t only be Moqtada Sadr’s people who fight – all the people will fight,” said Walid al Hilli, a leader in the Shia Islamist Dawa Party.
“Najaf doesn’t belong to Moqtada Sadr. It doesn’t even belong to the Shias. It belongs to all Muslims. It is like invading the Vatican,” he said. ” http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3631875.stm
“17/3/2012 at its building a meeting with a large number of Iraqi students studying in different Ukrainian universities and institutes to discuss their affairs and problems facing them in Ukraine in the presence of the Iraqi visiting delegation, which included Deputy Waleed Al-Hilli (head of the delegation)
The head of the Iraqi parliamentary delegation, Dr. Waleed Al-Hilli talked about the developments taking place in the educational process in Iraq after the collapse of the former regime in 2003 and stressed that the Iraqi government pays a special attention to the issue of providing Iraqi students, studying inside and outside the country with the suitable conditions for achieving scientific superiority as well as overcoming the obstacles and problems encountered in their education to prepare them to work in various facilities of the country in the future.” http://www.mofamission.gov.iq/ukr/en/articledisplay.aspx?gid=1&id=6075
HUMAN RIGHTS IN IRAQ 1968-1988.
AL-HILLI, Dr. Walid.
Book Description: No Publisher Noted, London, 1990 First Edition. Wraps., 1990. 8vo. Illustrated wraps / paperback. pp 64. Black and white illustrations. Written by a detainee of the Iraqi security services, who was tortured whilst imprisoned.
United Nations honors MP Dr. Walid al-Hilli
12/15/2012 | (Voice of Iraq) – Add a comment –
United Nations awarded a certificate of appreciation to Vice d. Walid al-Hilli decision of the Commission of Experts on Human Rights of the Council of Representatives of Iraq in recognition of his role with the committee members elect the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in Iraq. The representative of the Secretary-General in Iraq Martin Kobler deliver certificate discretion of Vice ornaments in the celebration held by Mmthelh United Nations headquarters in Baghdad on Thursday, 13 December 2012 on the occasion of the World Day and anniversary of the 64 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, in the presence of Mr. Francesco Motta Director of the Office of Human Rights Council of the United Nations in Iraq and a number of dignitaries and foreign ambassadors in Baghdad, officials and activists in the field of human rights. has delivered ornaments word in ceremonial feet where congratulations and blessings by the way, stressing the importance of this declaration is a lot of human suffering after World War II, expressing at the same time deeply regretted the continued violations of human rights broadly in many countries that recognize this declaration, and surprising neglect some countries for human rights against the interests saying: «When human rights collide with economic interests, financial or political to some countries, they give priority to the interests of?? This requires us to work to make human rights is the most important and above all other interests ». pointed ornaments: to that there are many obstacles big obstacles application of human rights such as corruption forms varied, terrorism, and the misuse of the human rights system values five: Justice, ethics and rights and freedoms and duties. added: We need to work to educate and raise communities so, and invite human rights organizations and activists in the world to be fully aware of the importance of that system, warning at the same time the use of human rights to help terrorism and corruption devastating for humanity, and praising Iraq’s success to enter values of human rights in Iraqi constitution in Education, alluding to the parking terrorism and atonement and agendas foreign to this success being sought to change the identity of Iraq as desires are contrary to human rights, calling for action on education foundations of these rights at all levels, saying sacrifices expensive and many made by the Iraqi people in defense of their dignity and values and sovereignty. At the conclusion of his speech made deputy ornaments thanks to the Representative of the Secretary-General and the Director of the Office of Human Rights in Iraq and working with them to bring them assistance and support in order to accomplish their mission by choosing members of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in Iraq after efforts continued for the full year, wishing to take care of this Commission to the values and principles of human rights Bavagaha wide away from the influences left behind by political debates in the Iraqi arena. Information Office of the Deputy d. Walid al-Hilli in 15/12/2012 AD
Walid al-Hilli: the crisis between Baghdad and Erbil in its way to be resolved.
24/11/2012 10:28:00
MP Walid al-Hilli recommended “increasing non-oil revenues by investing in industries based on oil derivatives, by building refineries and plastic factories, by activating the infrastructure bill, by subsidizing the service sectors, and by using scrupulous mechanisms to implementing the budget.”
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/business/2012/12/iraq-legal-and-political-differe.html#ixzz2WJVi5P00
OVER TO YOU BB!
Walid Shoebat
Former Muslim Brotherhood
Member Now Peace Activist
This Jerusalem document was signed by Husham Al Husayni (Husseini) the Dearborn Imam featured on “All American Muslims”
by Shoebat Foundation on December 16, 2011 in General
NOW HERE/S AN INTERESTING DOCUMENT and particularly the list of signatories which include said Walid al Hilli who is listed as “Visiting Professor at the University of North London”
There are a lot of dentists and doctors but I cant see Saad listed. Could that be his father in Madrid? But look at this one –
It also includes: Haidar al-Sadr official, gathered the people of the house, Katrina Holm / Sweden
IS THIS OUR HAIDAR??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also a “Abdul Amir Hassani, a human rights activist Geneva, Switzerland” and “Ali Adhadh Islamic scholar and human rights activist / Geneva, Switzerland *”
“Mr. Jawad Kazem inch dealer son of the martyr / Madrid, Spain”
EXCERPTS
“As we address our brothers the sons of the heroic Palestinian people, who have stepped epic fight to the death, and Trzoa his land Botehr blood, to continue their march tagged jihad and patience, sacrifice, and that God Almighty will be with them, and Jmaheraloma Islamic its rules petition, and potential huge support for them, and that review some of the leaders of the Palestinians themselves who bet on the international will, and that Athobwa to their senses and lead a devotion to God Almighty, and to derive victory from him, standing in the trench of the masses.
4 – remind people of our glorious nation prepare to perform the duty of holy war, and continue the process begun by the sons righteous in southern Lebanon from Hezbollah’s youth Endowed, and in the depth of Palestine from the rebel rock heroes, the nation has such a right brilliant and has such legitimacy bright, and the date plagued, foot, and may have availability factor of power and goodness can not find is a way for a holy war to protect Jerusalem and all the honor of Islam.
And to feel deeply, and the confidence of a nation they are part, and the section of history, civilization, and juice. And to support Allah who supports him
9 June 1421, which falls on September 9, 2000.”
For more details, please contact the owner of Dr. Hakim
http://www.alhakim.co.uk
124 WANDLE ROAD, MORDEN, SURREY SM4 6AE,
http://shoebat.com/2011/12/16/this-jerusalem-document-was-signed-by-husham-al-husayni-husseini-the-dearborn-imam-featured-on-all-american-muslims/
Looks like I’m jumping the gun (so to speak)a bit here. “Haydar” Thaher, 46, has a different spelling. (It was reported he had a history of mental health problems and had not been seen by neighbours for a month.)
His mother, Suhaila al-Allaf, 74, was killed along with her daughter Iqbal al-Hilli, 47, and son-in-law Saad al-Hilli, 50,
Mrs al-Allaf, a Swedish passport holder, and her son had been living in southern Stockholm when she joined the Hilli’s on their French holiday.
Her husband, Mr Thaher’s father, Abdul al-Saffar,
So this is NOT the Haidar al-Sadr official, gathered the people of the house, Katrina Holm / Sweden listed above is he? I can’t see any Allafs or Sassars listed in fact so false alarm folks sorry about that.
MORDEN TO CLAYGATE less time than it takes to cycle up Combe d’Ire though!
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?source=search_app#gs_rn=17&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=lXJWbNYeNY-TIwoMW9a-tA&suggest=p&cp=26&gs_id=2a&xhr=t&q=SM4+6AE+to+claygate+surrey&es_nrs=true&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=SM4+6AE+to+claygate+surrey&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47883778,d.d2k&fp=f85c2b3b14f6a49c&biw=1024&bih=712
* Saffars
However the document from apparently 9th Sept 2000 but it appears reproduced in December 2011 by the “Shoebat Foundation” named after it seems the founder – Walid Shoebat an ex Muslim Brotherhood member. Many have suggested that the Muslim Brotherhood was a child of American and British Intelligence. Is “Shoebat” a genuine name or allusion to the arab custom of throwing a show as a mark of contempt apropos George Bubya in Baghdad in December 2008?
WIKIPEDIA tells us that Mr Walid Shoebat is a Palestinian American Christian who converted from Islam. A self-proclaimed ex-terrorist, he lectures on the dangers of Islamic radicalism and is a strong supporter of the state of Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat
So why the reprint of the “Jerusalem Document”. Presumably to advise us of an Iraqi conspiracy to attack Israel in 2000. We notice that the signatories are predominantly London based Iraqi ex-pats with links to Sweden, Geneva and Madrid besides Iraq itself. Are these locations unrelated to the al Hillis?
Is the picture now becoming clearer? Did Israel see it as a priority not only to remove Saadam as a threat but also disrupt this anti-Saadam and anti-Israel coalition for which the 9/11 attacks were an essential ingredient, despite Iraq not being linked to them.
Professionally and geographically the group was very close to Claygate. Walid al Hilli, both opponent and victim of Saadam’s regime, is a signatory. Is he a relative of “our” Saad and Zaid? In any event is it conceivable that such a high level meeting should take place in London, calling for action against Israel, without it creating great interest from various intelligence services, including our own? Or that “our” family of al Hillis were not aware or involved in it given their diplomatic and CIA connections? Indeed I do not think it is fanciful to suggest that Saad may well have been (one of?) MI6’s channels into it.
What do people think. I’m quite prepared to be shot down (so to speak!)
This thread has to be the biggest dead end about almost everything, especially what happened to the al-Hillis et al.
Find Q’s irrelevancies most intriguing, particularly trashing Edward Snowden as best he can.
His worst claim about him is Q’s denial that the-spy-in-the-bag case, a reference to the horrific fate of MI6/GCHQ’s whistleblower Gareth Williams, has nothing to do with Snowden’s problems.
The photo of girlfriend Leslie Mills crawling into a similar carry-all bag, for example, is just showing how narcasistic they really are.
Actually it was the fate of fellow hacker Williams in the Manhattan 11 fiasco which ultimately drove Snowden to become one who succeeded in leaking most serious crimes by the Anglo-America data-miners, and still survived.
Makes one wonder if Q works for the HQ.
And perhaps we should also ask, was this association of notable, politically active Iraqi intelligentsia disbanded, or did it continue in some form or other and was Saad or Zaid a part of it?
Shoebat appears to be a very questionable character, who’s principle aim seems to be to stoke anti Muslim feelings in the United States. His web site is here http://shoebat.com/
One of the prominent stories there is the suggestion that Obama is linked via his half-brother Malik Obama to Sudan’s President Omar Al-Bashir. Malik is the Executive Secretary of the Islamic Da’wa Organization which just happens to be the group WALID AL HILLI is an MP for!
http://shoebat.com/2013/05/28/confirmed-barack-obamas-brother-in-bed-with-man-wanted-by-international-criminal-court-icc-for-crimes-against-humanity/
This is him on Boston bombing “the top experts and politicians in America preferred to arrest the young Tsarnaev alive. By this they will spark further efforts by terrorists who could kidnap Americans and demand his release. Killing the terrorists should be the first and preferred option to solve the problem.”
http://therightscoop.com/walid-shoebat-exclusive-the-boston-bombers-radicalization-myth-vs-fact/
On the London bombing:http://therightscoop.com/walid-shoebat-discusses-the-terrorist-attack-in-london/
Speculation 2 – A Mossad / Israeli False flag connection?
The rationale here goes like this:
There is one over riding, non-negotiable requirement for the success of Israel’s foreign policy goals. It is that the growing regional power and alleged nuclear weapons ambitions of Iran be neutralised. Israeli cannot accomplish this on its own and judges sanctions to be a waste of time. Israel SIS’s judge that the best way to provoke the US into a military attack would be for it to suffer a major terrorist attack by Iran. This speculation holds that Israel was/is at an advanced planning and logistical stage of ensuring that just such an attack occurs and is blamed on Iran. And that Gareth Williams, because of his deep involvement and knowledge of UKUSA / Israeli SIGINT / NSA operations handled, or otherwise came across, evidence of the planned operation and voiced his concerns to the wrong people.
Evidence for this speculation is that the way in which the body was left would greatly inhibit the spread of the smell of decay or of body fluids leaking through the floor and thus delay discovery sufficient for the perpetrators to be well clear of the country with little or no CCTV evidence still extant. It is also consistent with police appeals for information about a couple “of Mediterranean appearance” caught on what CCTV there is (or rather has been revealed) of the weeks before the body was discovered. [7] Williams is also reported to have been a regular visitor to the NSA HQ at Fort Meade Maryland and these reports are now subject to obfuscation and water muddying. He was also on secondment to MI6. He was thus at the hub of the technical and operational agencies charged with finding out and dealing with such possibilities – the purposes to which such ‘finding-out’ is put, remaining moot.
http://wikispooks.com/wiki/Gareth_Williams
And then there were the murders of Williams GCHQ colleague Gudrun Loftus when she indicated that she was taking his place as a whistleblower, and then the murder of Oxford astrophysicist Professor Steve Rawlings when he tried to revive the most cold cases after a dinner at the Great Hall at St. John’s College where Loftus had been thrown down the steps outside the Senior Common Room to her tragic death.
Regarding the murders of the al-hillis et al., found the complaint by the Chief Clerk of New York’s Erie County, Christopher Jacobs, to John Young’s Cryptome for posting the 2010 state list of persons possessing pistol licenses most interesting.
Makes me wonder if the name of William Hershkovitz (note spelling) is on it, and a fellow lapsed Jew is now most belatedly desirous of keeping covered up.
If it is, wound make Israel’s contention that Hershkovitz was just a poor untrained, rootless one complete nonsense.
Have been unable to open the link since I first learned about it, and would appreciate any info from it regarding Hershkovitz, though it would not absolve him if his name is not there from being a most dangerous, capable murderer – just what happened around Lake Annecy last September.
Wonder if Saad knew about the killing spree that the Anglo-Americans were so deeply involved in, as Snowden has indicated?
“William Hershkovitz (note spelling)”
“The photo of girlfriend Leslie Mills”… I noted that “spelling” also !
Or was it just completely wrong…again !
Just more of the pathetic quibbles by trolls on this site who use any diversion, especially spelling differences over names like killer Hershkovitz, to prevent this thread from getting anywhere.
Rather than make sure of what the spelling of Snowden’s girlfriend exactly is, I have been spending my time on refreshing my memory about what really happened to General John P. Wheeler III – another cold, unsolved murder.
While I originally claimed that it was an act of vengeance by the Iranians because of his helping undermine its ability to get weapons – what resulted in NSA’s Special Operations Section killing that popular Pahlavi heir because he was planning on giving up on plans to return to the Persian throne – could the SOS have killed him too because Wheeler was planning to spill the beans, thanks to his knowledge of cyber security, on what the data-miners had been up to?
Increasingly looks like NSA/GCHQ is just a bunch of killers.
Back to Chevaline for a minute, and the two Philippe Bossys who are real estate agents, one with a connection to Chambery. The legal news involving the Mastros was coming out of Chambery. The Mastros, whose real estate empire crashed, likely would have used a local agent to locate their various lodgings in the Annecy region. I wanted to clarify that.
The timing of the Bossy news and the court decision are a most curious thing, only two days apart.
Oh, hi there, THF.
Tim V – was going to say something earlier but didn’t get to it. beware of anything Walid Soebat had or has to say. he is most thoroughly discredited – as you have discovered. Originally feted for his anti-Islam rantings by you=can-guess-who (the PR queens are always on the look out for any “recovering muslimist”) he has lost luster even in the eyes of the worst islamophobes (Pam geller et al) since he could be so easily brought down.
A bit similar to that Reza Khalili (sp?) type who keeps breaking “scoops” from iran (like the Fordo incident that wasn’t).
Unfortunately, though such individuals, due to knowledge of Arabic or Farsi may occasionally have a useful or even a truthful bit, for the most part lead to further obfuscation. I stay away quoting from such as a rule of thumb , since whatever may be right is likely to be mixed with much that’s dubious. I kind of doubt even the vaunted mossad has much use for them even as useful trojan horses. they prefer a more subtly form of trojanism (like narus?).
On another note – Tim V; I do find the discussions on MZT fascinating – for a variety of reasons – including the tredging up of older reports that i was always interested in.
My take on the direction different discussions are taking:we (as in the “grand we”, like in “all who are interested”) is that ultimately we all come crashing against the one glaring element about Chevaline: Motivation. people have gone constructing and reconstructing the events, adding and eliminating based on all the reports and conjectures. Timelines upon timelines, differing by a few minutes this way or that way, depending on which report and whose account is believed. between here, MZT and DI, going back to the beginning, the backgrounds of the principals have been researched and inspected based on what little there was known to the public.
through it all, like any crime, the means of the killings, the manner of it – using one gun (that we know of) have been found plausible – if not altogether convincing. Similarly – opportunity there was – for several individuals, including WBM, and/or at least two cars we heard of (three, if we don’y exclude Bossy’s vehicle).
But motivation? nothing definite that any of us found really convincing so far. Somehow, the family disputes- either in UK or France don’t pass the “likelihood” test – on psychological grounds, even more than plausibility. The SAH work or SM work are tantalizing but we haven’t found the holy grail there either – just some indications and possibilities.
What everyone sees quite clearly however is the obfuscation (or call it deliberate incompetence) of the french and a strange disinterest by the british to help out in much – other than provide shelter to the girls (from family and all).
i think that much simply can’t be denied and we are all in agreement on that.
So, that lives two grand scenarios:
1. A state operation conducted for reasons unknown – just like the Gareth Williams case – clues galore but nothing definite.
2. One or more of the victims as collateral due to some other insidious goings-on at the martinet. problem is that just like “state’ agencies – no one has a clue as to what those goings-on were about (drugs? jewlery smuggling?).
You and I (and others who were/are on this thread) were firmly with (1). That led us on CM to look, far and wide – in both place and time for connections otherwise hidden. Many interesting possibilities and fascinating coincidences uncovered, and tantalizing threads became visible that I was never aware of before. though I don’t think we have zeroed in on what could have justified such a murder-most-foul, scenarios for doing that could be easily envisioned and many were. Any extraction possibility – as has been suggested by some (including me) – fit into this category.
At one point there was a poster here – who weaved in and out (forgot the screen name now)- who posited that it was (2) with perhaps SM being a target of a double-deal and SAH as collateral. he/she got discouraged when none seemed all that keen to run along with this option, there being basically no known facts or persons to tie it with. I think that’s a direction some on MZT are going now. That may be just as well, as the possibility of SAH and/or SM interrupting something else can’t be ruled out. In which case, however, EM, may be Forestry individuals, will have to have been in it up to their necks or the lack of interest in finding the perpetrators cannot be explained as you have often pointed out. As we said before – it’s the cover-up, stupid!
I do think much interesting related information can come to light from pursuing (1) or (2), with one exception – the pursuit of option (2) CAN get people into hot water due to libel issues. I think pointing fingers at various individuals in France can be problematic, especially if somewhere along the line some of those individuals were willing to kill so many so ruthlessly. Therefore it is my belief that lines of research into local crime groups as motivation will be curtailed.
Note that we didn’t have that problem pursuing option (1). By definition none of us can know more than is out there to find (and if any of us did they would be in hot water indeed). As to the possibility of libel – when did the mossad last sue anyone for besmirching it’s reputation? or MI5? so we get to speculate to our hearts’ content, and while it may not always make us wiser or help solve the crime, the speculations themselves have brought no small amount of enlightenment about things done in the dark.
PS anyone has handy the link to the BBC interview of WBM?
PPS welcome THF – interesting suggestion about gareth williams knowing NSA secrets and killed over them. don’t get bent out of shape now over spelling.
PPPS james, please no food fights? too few here as it is.
PPPS james, please
.
I
Something off topic maybe, but this now open accessable database could reveal some interesting connections. Also this website is worth reading for more information regarding the background of some events and the people and corporations involved (follow the illegal money!):
http://www.icij.org/
http://offshoreleaks.icij.org/
I agree Marlin, I try to make sense of what bits come to light but the official response doesn’t make sense to me .
I do wonder about the Mastros arrest being so close to the event that feels like a strange coincidence ,I have not really found anything that screams connection for all that.
The recent information in the channel 4 doc that the the family had been given the location for the walk by the campsite manager blows a lot of ideas out if true, not that I have accepted it as true for sure as it’s difficult to trust anything that is said in this case.
Marlin
16 Jun, 2013 – 7:50 pm
“What everyone sees quite clearly however is the obfuscation (or call it deliberate incompetence) of the french and a strange disinterest by the british to help out in much – other than provide shelter to the girls (from family and all).
i think that much simply can’t be denied and we are all in agreement on that.”
“Of couse, when the bombings proved so successful, the National Security Agency (NSA), Britain’s Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), and others amounted a great effort to capture such messages, and determine what they meant so that there would be no recurrence of the tragedy. Unfortunately, they were repeated in Madrid in March 2004 (3), and in London in July 2005 (4) where messages were not received, were ignored, or were misunderstood. The basic problem, though James Bamford has nothing to say about its cause, was that GCHQ, MI6, and MI5 were convinced that Al-Qaeda was going to pull off a terrorist attack around London, thanks to the electronic chatter that it was picking up in Britain and Spain from jihadist mullahs, and when this proved terribly wrong, they dismissed as a danger the Leeds group, led by Mohammad Sidique Khan – which they had already tried unsuccessfully to set up as terrorists during Operation Crevice – only for it to be totally ignored in surveillance operations, allowing it to pull off the 7/7 bombings with no interference.” http://codshit.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/was-oxfords-gudrun-loftus-killed.html
“When Williams was found dead on August 23rd, apparently muirdered, Loftus apparently began to have second thoughts about what she had been involved in, and when I wrote my article about the background to his murder, somone, apparently she, wrote an most approving endorsement of it which a poster, using the site nane of Shader Writing, passed along: “This is obviously a great post. Thanks for the valuable information and insights you have so provided here. Keep it up!” Of couse, I was most pleased, especially since it showed much more clearly where I was headed than I imagine the vast majority of viewers possessed. The person had apparently been most taken by my mentioning the murder of former DCI William Colby, and the priority that NSA put on recruiting foreign experts, especially in Britain, for cryptological and linguistic posts in Appendix C of Bamford’s Body of Secrets. The quoted source had digested all I had said about the illegal, covert, and, if necessary, the murderous ways of the NSA/GCHQ organisation, and where I was headed when it came to what happened to Williams.” http://codshit.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/was-oxfords-gudrun-loftus-killed.html
How many of these are still alive and well and committed to the stated aims of the 2000 conference? An age away pre 9/11, pre Afghanistan, pre Iraq. And surely connections to the al hillis somewhere. would be strange if there were not.
9 June 1421, which falls on September 9, 2000.
Signatories:
Ibrahim al-Jaafari (d) of the Islamic Dawa Party / London
Asad al-Tai human rights organization / Finland
Mohsin Iftikhar Shakir (d) a dentist
Akram al-Hakim Professor / London
Hakim’s statement (d) Ihsan Charitable Society World
Iraqi tribes assigned vocalist / London
Thamer Kazaz Iraqi Welfare Association / London
Hazem jewelry (d) a university professor / Nuremberg / Germany
Hamid Al Bayati (d) A representative of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (London)
Belle Musa Kazim (d) Status of Women Zahra / London
Hussein al-Shami (Mr.) General Supervisor of Dar Al Islam Foundation / London
Hamid Mansour displaced dealer / Manchester
Haidar al-Sadr official, gathered the people of the house, Katrina Holm / Sweden
Haider al-Abadi (d) of the Islamic Dawa Party / London
Khalid Ibrahim, Human Rights Watch / Dublin, Ireland
Darwish Moradi dealer displaced Kurdish Willy *
Rashad Al-Ansari (Sheikh) of Imam al-Mahdi Foundation / Netherlands
Ridha Jawad Taqi continuous sit-in Trafalgar Square / London
Sami al-Askari, a member of the Political Bureau of the Islamic Dawa Party / London
Sami Azara putty President of the Movement for National Reform / London
Saad Jawad (d) the movement of Soldiers of the Imam
Salman Sudan (Sheikh) Secretary of the group of Muslim Scholars in Britain
Shomran rotavirus (d) a university professor / London
His wise and (d) the World Dialogue ideological / United Nations
Saleh al-Hakim (Mr.) scholar / Denmark
Safaa Mahmoud representative of the Supreme Council for Revolution in Iraq Alasalamay / Vienna
Salah Al Bilal (Sheikh) religious leader Imam Al-Khoei Foundation / London
Salah al-Khatib (d) Almntma World Islamic Human Rights to defend the front
Zia Shakurji (Sheikh) in front of the Iraqi Islamic Society in Hamburg / Germany
Adel Abdul-Mahdi, director of the Center of Islamic Studies and Documentation / France
Amer sweet (Mr.) official status of the people of the Islamic Cultural House Vienna
Abdul Amir Hassani, a human rights activist Geneva, Switzerland
Abdul Amir Obeis morning to retired Major General shows an independent Iraqi
Abdul Baqi Khazraji (d) a university professor and researcher Geneva / Switzerland
Abdul-Jabbar spark (d) Sheikh professor status of a religious leader the people of the Islamic House Sydney / Australia
Abdul Hamid Najdi (d) a university professor / London
Sheikh Abdul-Rahim Mohammed Hussein Al Detector cover Financial Manager / Switzerland
Abdul-Zahra al-Bandar (d) former professor at Baghdad University
Abdul-Sahib Research Centre Moussawi, head of the Islamic Montreal / Canada
Abdul Mohsen Abbas (d) the competence of a doctor / East London
Abdel Monem Hassan (d) an Islamic writer / London
Adnan, yesterday (d) shows an Iraqi Islamic
Issam paste (d) Noor Foundation / United Kingdom
Ala Overture (d) Mdermahd Arab and Islamic Studies / London
Alaa al-Hashemi engineer / Hamburg, Germany
Alaa Hussein’s official human rights organization in Iraq / Netherlands
Ali Awsy (d) a university professor
Ali al-Husseini (d) a consultant physician and hospital is not a medal Six / London
Ali Adhadh Islamic scholar and human rights activist / Geneva, Switzerland *
Ali Allawi (d) a businessman
Issa Hussein Hassani dealer / Malaga Island
Ghalib Shabandar thinker / Malmö Sweden
Faiza approved pharmaceutical
Fadel Al-Husseini melanotic (d) (Mr.) Dean of the Faculty of Sharia / London
Fadel Al-Khatib (Sheikh) preacher / London
Alshlana Fadhil (Sheikh) Council spokesman Shia Muslim Scholars in North America
Paradise Centre Moussawi, Zahra / London
Ferial Al-Attiyah Iraqi Women’s Caucus / London
Qasim Alshlana Islamic Iraqi writer / London *
Mr. Jawad Kazem inch dealer son of the martyr / Madrid, Spain
Kamel Abu loaf (d) Islamic scholar
Kamal Optical Islamic Council of the Iraqi community / Britain
Kamal Khazali (d) The doctor / London
Mohammad Hakimi professor
Mohammed al-Musawi (Mr.) Secretary General of the Association of Ahl al-Bayt of the Islamic World
Muhammad Baqir al-Nasiri (Sheikh) Secretary General of the movement of scientists Mujahideen in Iraq / London
Mohammed Bahr al-Ulum (d) (Mr.) Secretary General of the Ahl al-Bayt Islamic Centre / London
Mohammed Zaki Suwaij (Mr.) religious advisor in Houston / USA
Mohammed Saeed al-Kufa Turaihi Academy / The Netherlands
Muhammad Sadiq Aladnana (Professor) poet and university professor, doctor / London
Mohamed Abdel Aljabbarhrkh cadres of Iraqi Islamic / London
Mohammed Allawi, the Association of Ahl al-Bayt Islamic World
Mohammed Ali al-Shahristani, Chairman of the Board of Trustees of the International University of Islamic Sciences / London
Mohammed Mahdi al-Khalisi (Sheikh) A member of Iraq in the World Council of Trustees of Jerusalem (Beirut-based)
Mohammad Mehdi Hashem Jondallah Imam / London
Murtaza Qazwini (Mr.) religious leader Imam Sadiq Foundation / Los Angeles America
Mustafa al-Musawi (Mr.) religious leader of the Islamic Cultural Center / Los Angeles America
Mustafa al-Moussawi representative of the Islamic Accord Movement in London
Mustafa Habib cadres of the Islamic Movement of Iraqi / London
Harmful to sweet (Mr.) world of religion and an Islamic scholar
Munir Turaihi (Sheikh) scholar / London
Rubaie (d) the Islamic world / London
Nadir Ahmed, university professor and a scientific researcher at the University of Huddersfield formerly / Britain
Nabil Alwan (Sheikh) cleric Hussein Hussein, Khaddam / Denmark
The success of Kazim (d) Professor of the University of
Nizar al-Haidari (d) The doctor / Britain
Ahmed grew up representative of the Islamic Union of Iraqi Turkmen / London
Yes Allawi Ihsan Charitable Society World
Hisham al-Hassani (d) a pediatrician
Hisham al-Husseini (Sheikh) Guide of the Islamic Center of Karbala / Dearborn, Michigan United States
Hana al-Janabi, an advocate for refugees / Britain
Walid al-Hilli (d) Visiting Professor at the University of North London
Joseph of Nazareth (Sheikh) shows an Iraqi cleric
Pink (and Marlin).
I agree. As I try to make sense of what bits that come out … I find one “fact” often contradicts another. And other “facts” don’t get released at all.
What actually is the official “official story” now ?
The 15.15 pictures are.
The BMW 4×4 is.
There’s nothing about the broken roof rack.
Or the “third cyclist” (!)(?).
How many bullets were fired ? 21 or 25 ?
Is Bossy in the official version now or is he still Didierjean.
Mollier gets a mention….just ! And his place of work.
The builders/stone masons aren’t though.
It has become that “bad” now that it would seem the police authorities don’t want to give a press conference to “confirm” what the story (their story) actually is.
I agree James
17 Jun, 2013 – 7:32 am. If we wanted to list all the official changes/contradictions in this story it would take all day. Have we ever seen the like? Murder situations are always by their nature “suspicious” but here it is compounded by suspicious investigation, start to finish. The event has almost been overtaken by its consequences. When will calls be made to investigate the investigators?