The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
A lot of the families “that were able”, left Iraq in those years and came to London.
The “national socialism” of the Ba’athist’s was not for them.
And I can appreciate why.
Now with “No Saddam” and a country rich in resources you can bet there will be some interesting claims to be made….and money.
Of course the “local government” there… along with those involved in running that “show” will also want to stake their claim also.
James
That could right be the case.
The Mirjan surname is sometimes translated as Marjan or even Margan.
Also PM Abdulwahab Mirjan is sometimes translated as Abdulwahab Marjan.
The Mirjan family was the richest family in Hillah and probably still is. Did you know that Hillah = Babylon ?
The Mirjan family funded the al Marjan hospital in Babylin in the 1920tees.
That hospital in al Hillah is still called al Marjan hospital today.
Abd el Razzaq Mirjan did fund that hospital (see wikipedia).
He also created a new small city near Najaf that has got his name still today.
The Mirjan family did fund schools and they did invest in culture and in musrums, including the hanging gardens of Babylon.
This is the city with their name:
http://www.gomapper.com/travel/where-is/qalat-abd-ar-razzaq-marjan-located.html
Now lets take the al Hilli family from Najaf being equally wealthy and politically highly involved in Iraqi top positions during Iraqi Kingdom Faisal II.
Of course the two families were going hand in hand since more than 100 years and money had never been an issue for them. And of course there must be property in Iraq and we arent talking about a chicken farm and a family house here. We are talking about properties in Babylon, in Baghdad and perhaps elsewhere, too.
Guess the Romanovs would be allowed coming back to Russia and asking for their property. Would they talk about a poultry farm and a datcha? Of course not.
The D notice obviously involved the Royal history of this family. There was not a single word in MSM yet regarding their ancestors in Iraq (although that should be easy to investigate) nor did they ever mention that Hashim al Hilli was UNO ambassador of Iraq in New York.
Quite true, Mochyn69, there could be an Iraqi Jewish connection, especially with regard to property and the conflicts with the Ba’ath Party. We already know, as discussed in the past, of Saad al-Hilli’s neighbor and accountant. He seemed to be surrounded by Jewish people in his community and work, who seemed on friendly terms with him.
Check facebook
/safaa.mirjan
We would need olifant to translate what he writes there. This is all in Arab 🙁
Watch the picture he is proud of. This is a beautiful picture, displaying the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, wherein his wealthy family invested huge money for restauration and care in the past 100 years.
There is also photo where he poses with Kefah al Saffar in front of palm trees.
She is typically conservative Shia dressed.
Q
I had the suspicion earlier that the al Hillis were crypto Jews (Sephardi). However, the more we have learnt, the less i think that this is likely. However, they were political leaders in Iraq in the times before Saddam came into power.
Blue…
It might be the case, it might not….but it sure is of interest.
Do I win the “dinner in Paris” that MTZ is supplying !!!!
Have read a lot about the family at that time (pre 1960’s).
The PM at that time seems an all round “good egg”. He (they) had considerable wealth and he seems to have done some good deeds with it. But such a short time at leading the country.
So then in the late 1950’s / early 1960’s it isn’t any wonder they departed that land. England I guess would have been the logical choice.
History would have taught them not to leave all the money in “Iraq”.
And so no doubt they were able to start up a new life on English shores (albeit without the power they once had).
And then the fall of Saddam !
But with it comes new problems. The “new” guard step forth.
Slightly off topic, Afghanistan had it’s land mapped not so long ago. Another “mineral rich” country. Like Romania.
So I’ll throw in my “two Dirhams” worth of comment.
Zaid the accountant. The eldest. Maybe even The Key Holder for Hashim. And good family contacts from days of old in Iraq.
Sa’ad the slight more “wayward”. The younger. Now in the “high tech” world of satellites and mapping.
A death in the family leads to discoveries of possible wealth via mineral rights. The 800,00 must have PREVIOUSLY come from somewhere.
And I could throw in Mollier here. A man with “specialist” knowledge. However specialist that may be (or not be) he has worked in that type of industry for several years, it is said.
Could that fit with events ?
“However, they were political leaders in Iraq in the times before Saddam came into power”.
….and socialism, Ba’ath style !
Remember “Iraq” pre 1960’s would have been an incredible place, for the “political classes” that were there at that time.
http://saminkie.blogspot.com/2008/10/hilla-sweat-hilla.html
This refers to the wealthy Mirwan family and the beauty of Hillah/Babylon and its cheerful people compared to the cold aggressiveness of the Baghdad people.
His Iraq blog is quite interesting
http://saminkie.blogspot.com
The below he wrote on sept 5th 2012 coincidentally.
http://saminkie.blogspot.com/2012/09/locus-of-control-iraqia.html
“Almost daily we hear about somebody being killed by a gun and nothing more. The killers are always unknown”.
That is a quote and a half !
Yup – that’s it Jennywren
27 Jun, 2013 – 1:41 pm thanks. Clever “Wren”. “March Court, Putney”. “Fat Bastard” (Saad’s friend interviewed on the C4 programme) set me off suggesting they lived in Plimlico where the boys attended school apparently’
(There’s been some interesting stuff new to me on the famous bike on MZT if anyone’s interested).
Tim….
Tim
That’s all I can say to your previous post.
Bring in something worth chewing on…then we’ll debate it.
Here we “debate”. It get brutal. But you get to what you see “warts n all”. I like that here….over there (is there really a prize dinner ? What The Fark !).
Did they ever test “Fat Bastard” to who he is. Made one post here. Was asked…and he never came back ! That’s odd !
He may think you guys hold more “hope” !
So…. POST your news….or stop “cut’n & Past’n” Wikipea….!
If you want to use the toilet, do so…or get off it. There’s another “term” but it has more “i’s” in it !
Tim
March Court was their second home in London.
There was a direct london bus from march court (bus stop there) to pimlico. This journey takes about 20 minutes and the bus goes regularly. No problem for the kids going to school to Pimlico daily.
So then, Kadhim did purchase the claygate house just for saad’s cycling hobby? What kind of BS is that?
“So then, Kadhim did purchase the claygate house just for saad’s cycling hobby?”
They bought it for that ?
Tim has.. if not has already …lost credibility on that one I’m afraid.
No research….but for re posting and claiming.
Lacking in thought.
No logic.
A spook ? or an OAP ? I’m for an OAP …gone mad !
James
I dont think that tim said that. This was perhaps quoted from some newspaper on MTZ.
I think that tim v. adds a lot of important input and that is much appreciated. All of us had made sometimes wrong or later debunked input at times. Sh*t happens. I appreciate his hint for the bike discussion on MTZ, although i have troubles to load this site and the discussion often gets into not so important technical details on MTZ, and often speculation there without any links or evidence.
IMHO we won’t find any truth as long as we believe what police and MSM is scripting for us. We have to look at this scenery totally uninhibited.
I studied all the Mirwan companies and in fact most of tjose companies are dealing with marble and marble constructions. A few companies are just real estate funds to supervise and fund some London estates. Nothing special. Perhaps those are tax cover up companies.
Two of their companies are interesting:
Yousif: http://www.bus-ex.com/article/dar-al-rokham
Yahya is manager of CCC Oman.
http://www.ccc.gr/address_list.php
Their main company, however, is GMI.
http://www.stonework.co.uk/location.htm
CIC Ltd seems to be a subsidiary for GMI:
http://www.misterwhat.co.uk/company/1860974-cic-ltd-london
The Yahya Mirjan company where Zaid was director had been dissolved in 1990. I could not find out what exactly this company did.
Q 4:19PM yes, I remember the speculation about the Iraqi jewish connection/origin. I wasn’t ready to buy into that at the time mostly because we really had no evidence other than circumstantial historical connections and anecdotes.
I definitely find it a bit peculiar that so many of those associated with Saad – who came out to speak to the press – appeared to be jewish. The accountant, the neighbour, one friend (the one with the “move” picture) and now the friend “fat bastard’ or Mathews, who claimed to be jewish as well (I believe these last two are not the same). Given Saad’s Arabic background and the shia religion, plus a few other odds and ends – all make me wonder – why would he gravitate to jewish friends/associates? yes, i know many accountants are jewish, and the neighbour just happens to be, but the friend(s) too? what are the odds of that happening in London – a very very cosmopolitan place? what of some friends of arabic origin? why have they not spoken about him? fear?
This is something that’s been bothering me for some reason – at the edges, sort of. Can’t put my finger on it. i can kind of see Saad feeling more comfortable with people who are also immigrants, especially say from the middle east. But jewish Londoners are decidedly not from the middle east and certainly not from israel, and so would seem to have very little in common with someone of Saad’s complex background (yes, I know. men have cars and sports in common. Whatever…).
One other thing to take into account is that all these people; accountant, neighbour (talkative one) and friends show up only AFTER Saad is no longer. So we can’t be sure of anything they say, or the nature of their relationship other than their words (excepting perhaps the accountant, where there is a provable paper trail of some sort).We basically have no corroboration about whatever the relationships were – other than their word.
And here’s the thing that makes me extra suspicious: Saad knows a friend is Jewish – is that who you’d confide in regarding your anti-Israel feelings? isn’t there a certain likelihood they may look askance at such convictions? this part always seemed weird to me.
Note to Tim V: this is a good place where we can comment on such things – and have much in the past.
I guess there’s always the possibility brought up here before – that saad deliberately told a select group he participated in such chats to prove co-operation? I know this fits into the scheme where he was re-recruited into MI5 perhaps and put on a “job” that included penetrating chat rooms. No way would he then “brag” about this except to “trusted” handlers.
Ok, the last comment is purely speculative since we have no proof. But that chat-room business is suspicious any way you slice it, and the fact that “Fatbastard” who claims to be jewish is told about it in some kind of “confidence’ makes it even more suspicious.
@James
28 Jun, 2013 – 12:06 am
Oh dear, James. You seriously messed up there! Just hope you don’t misread your flight plans so badly!
@Marlin
28 Jun, 2013 – 4:55 am
Yes indeed. I am wondering about that as well.
Don’t know what to make of FB. I asked him about SAH’s genealogy as suggested on hereby BB, could he confirm the family were very well connected Iraqis and his initial response was decidedly jumpy .. along the lines of, anyone who asks that kind of question should tell us about his genealogy first ..
Strange.
james, you sound miffed. No need. I think Tim V needs to run his car tracks theory by the widest possible audience. I am pretty convinced – and was for a while – that he is quite right and the circular skid marks are not of SAH’s BMW.
I also think it’s important that more people come to consider the very strong possibility that there was at least one other car at the Martinet – in all likelihood, the killer(s), and that evidently EM, at least has bent heaven and earth to stir us away from such heretical speculations. I am interested in seeing the objections and counter-arguments people raise – both here (there was quite a bit about the car) and now revisited at MZT. I am also interested in seeing more people consider the implications of what it means if the investigation (on the french side, at least) is more intent on stirring away from the truth than in finding the real pepetrator(s). After all, these implications are serious business, and I have every expectation that many will find them hard to consider, much less accept (well, not on this blog, obviously. We have all crossed the Rubicon already).
I also think that the “new” picture Tim V flagged is important – I did not see it before, though Tim V claims to have come across it earlier. Well, to me it’s important for two reasons; (10 the possibility that a bicycle was captured in the frame – on the other side of the park clearing, which would be a surprise, and (2) my continuing interest in facts, pictures and comments that somehow we all – en mass – seem to have missed at the time. like that “third” bicyclist – popping up from seemingly nowhere – but mentioned in an “early” french report.
That continuing “interest” has something to do with a comment made by Bluebird sometime ago. Let’s not forget that internet history is “fluid”, or can be made so. Things can disappear, but they can also be made to “appear” time stamp and all.
That being said, things can indeed get a bit “incestuous”. But what’s the harm in a little “incest”? we had it with DI before, didn’t we? of course, some of us are better at observing blogland ‘etiquette’ than others. No big deal though, isn’t it? after all, it’s not like anyone is getting paid for any of this (alas! if we did I would definitely be better at bringing up the citations and links …honest….)
@ Marlin: I’ve also found it odd that someone would pick a name that comes from a particularly repugnant character played by comic Mike Myers in his Austin Powers spy spoof movies, and who claims to eat babies/little people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Bastard_%28character%29
Mini-Me thinks he’s crazy.
The car track circles were decidely not those of the al-Hilli vehicle, as they are not the correct size for the tire width and size of the arc, IMO. I said that some time ago in the Conundrum thread.
As for all the other “facts”, they are quite fluid. Philippe Bossy is just one of the many “facts” on the ever-changing list of story lines.
I recall discussing children’s TV shows some time ago. The al-Hilli story could never make it past a group of preschoolers watching Saturday morning shows. They’d be catching every slip and change, and asking why. What next? Anything is possible on the Saturday morning cartoons, but the audience is tough to please and tougher to convince.
There are some exciting possibilities. Perhaps Foghorn Leghorn was a former resident of the al-Hilli poultry farm in Iraq…Why not? We’ve already had a new character whose surname is commonly used for calling cows. It’d be one more for the Looney Toons menagerie. And Foghorn Leghorn mysteriously ceased production in 1963, a critical year in Iraq.
@Marlin 28 Jun, 2013 – 5:16 am
I think that Daily Express photo could be important more in terms of its timing.
Just as the inquiry team put pressure on the family inheritance row line by arranging to haul in ZAH for questioning, along comes the Daily Express and publishes a photo that, if correctly interpreted, tends to shift the attention back to SM.
Curiouser and curiouser.
Mochyn69, so you seem to agree that we have a kind of a “game’ going on between british and french sides (may be more in the background/ well, we don’t know).
Don’t know if you saw, but I kind of decided to call the arrest, followed by release on bail, of Zaid as an advantage for the brit side. yes, the french upped the pressure, apparently calling in zaid for an interview and spreading rumors pointing to him as suspect. So by arresting him as “potential suspect” he can now legally clam up, plus is not obligated to go to france anytime soon. By releasing him the brits also indicated – that they have very little on him – not enough to jail. A smooth move, I thought, so I gave them the advantage.
Of course, the express picture is another point. I think more will come to light with that picture, which is why i think the more people that look at it the better. One of the things that the picture brings up is that it’s a hint that there may be more somewhere (which will interestingly “come to light”, and someone will recall seeing them previously).
Anyways, i think there is more about that photo than meets the eye and it may not just be the may-be bike.
Can’t wait for the french repartee now. they need to come up with something good since, by my reckoning they are at least 2-3 points behind.
Marlin
I totally agree with your view on the Jewish side. I had suggested months ago that they might be part of a secret Sephardim vs Ashkenazi/Khazar war. I had suggested that zhey were crypto Jews.
However, given the investigation news of the recent months (al Khoei, al Sistani links) i debunked that theory. Still, their females and girls, particularly those younger than 30, show a lot of skin on their fb pages. Sometimes more skin than average european and american girls show on fb. That still keeps me a bit suspicious.
On the other hand, i am more convinced of a hezbollah link of that family.
About that photo.
I am not good at photos so i leave that to others. I cannot even make sure whether or not that “thing” on the right side is a bicycle. I rather believe that this is something else.
Also there is that truck. When did they tie away the car? 2 or 3 days later? Without doubt they had finished their investigation and opened the scene before that truck was allowed to drive in. That means that the scene could have been updated and messed up after having been opened. The tire tracks could be by police cars then, or even by journalists, could they? This photo was no photo made on a day when the scene was “original”. It makes no difference if you make a photo today or 3 days after the event. Both is useless in regards of tire tracks and bicycles.
Stuxnet was NSA. NOW leaked to NYT.
All Iranian links and details about how it worked and how they got it into Iran, read in the NYT link below:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/middleeast/obama-ordered-wave-of-cyberattacks-against-iran.html
@anybody – please could you post a direct link to the “new Express photo” (the one with the possible bike). Thanks.
@bleb
28 Jun, 2013 – 2:50 pm
Tim V posted this on MZT @6-27-2013 at 00:51:50
This Express photo from a slightly different angle is quite interesting.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/410407/French-Alps-murders-Victim-s-brother-released-on-bail-after-police-grilling
– See more at: http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-shooting-saad-al-hilli-sylvain-mollier-part-7/comment-page-58/#comment-13427
The ‘rock’ also appears in this photo
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_tEWS5lVt7_HM3HZfuXeKn2aJYI5STcYCeKg9Pwo3fF-7INOf3g
Photographer is right on top of it and sees nothing untoward.