The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Thx straw, that’s an excellent photo and hey, it’s just a rock!
Thanks, Mochyn & Straw
Doesn’t look like a bike to me. I can see two evenly sized circular shapes and what could be a down tube and possibly a bottom bracket(but no chain rings) but IMO the geometry is not right for any bike I have ever seen (unless it had been mangled!) and there are no forks, stays or chainset visible (that I can see).
Any thoughts as to why the six people are strung out in an arc between the transporter and the “bike”?
Forgive me if I’m behind the curve here but did anyone know about this ?
“Annecy chief prosecutor Eric Maillaud believes clues into the shooting of the al-Hilli family in September last year could lie in computer data stored on US internet servers.
But American judges will not hand over potentially crucial information for ‘privacy reasons’, Mr Maillaud said.”
Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/al-hilli-family-french-alps-murder-1736660#ixzz2XXOYYGYu
Bluebird
28 Jun, 2013 – 12:32 am – Thanks for your support BB (I’ll always wear it – LOL)
and as for
James
28 Jun, 2013 – 12:06 am – “Do calm down dear”. Despite your A level maths, you managed to achieve the fatal mistake of making 5 the product of 2 plus 2, even possibly 2 plus 1. As BB pointed out the quote wasn’t mine.
Now it’s time to have my tablets and call nurse to get me off to bed.
Oh, and just for information “Fat Bastard” who contributes more frequently to the MZT site, has identified himself as SAH’s long term friend interviewed on the recent C4 documentary. He jumped to the unjustified assumption I was suggesting something which I hadn’t said also. He posted the following:-
“Fat Bastard
6-25-2013 at 15:35:54
@ Tim V
ooh are you saying Saad was a spy ?
I guess i must be too then !”
To which I replied:
“6-25-2013 at 16:24:49
Fat Bastard 6-25-2013 at 15:35:54 in response to your first suggestion, the answer is “I don’t know” as it is to the second. However the fact that you appear to be attempting to undermine the first possibility, by highlighting the unlikelihood of the second, might lead some (not me of course) to the conclusion that there could be a degree of truth to both!” which amused me at least.
Tim V: “Now it’s time to have my tablets and call nurse to get me off to bed”:
Say it ain’t so! I imagine you as a vigorful fourty something – with interest in fast cars and sailboats, sneaking time away from work to comment on these blogs (sorry, can’t see 30 – if you were normal 30 no way would you have the time – unless in mother’s basement…). Please don’t ruin the image…
just joking, of course. Anyone can be anything they want to be on these blogs (but watch for etiquette rules!)
“What he did not say then was that he was also learning the arts of cyberwar. The architects of Olympic Games would meet him in the Situation Room, often with what they called the “HORSE BLANKET,” a giant foldout schematic diagram of Iran’s nuclear production facilities. Mr. Obama authorized the attacks to continue, and every few weeks — certainly after a major attack — he would get updates and authorize the next step. Sometimes it was a strike riskier and bolder than what had been tried previously.”
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/middleeast/obama-ordered-wave-of-cyberattacks-against-iran.html
Marlin
28 Jun, 2013 – 6:11 am – iF YOU REMEMBER i SAID i HAD SEEN THAT EXPRESS PHOTO BEFORE. Several doubted it had ever been circulated when i flagged it up on MZT. So i took a look at my downloads and indeed i had in December last year. But wait …. this is the interesting bit…. that one was cut just short of the “new” bike shot. So I’m not quite sure if it is the same photo lopped or one taken with a few seconds gap and slightly different angle. So I am now starting to think you may be right that this one was authorised or put out there intentionally to include the glimpse of the bike. It certainly fundamentally undermines the early stories where the bike was found. Why is this important? EM has been determined to distance SM from any intrigue or involvement. This has been undermined by the shots, the DNA contamination, his close physical presence to Al Hillis, even the lack of grazes indicating he dismounted normally. NOW we have the suggestion he got off at the top end. Why? I don’t believe Al Hilli was up there in which case it was to the vehicle that made those tracks (probably). So was SM meeting that vehicle and then acting as an intermediary to the Al Hillis? Then when down there double crossed by the occupants of that vehicle – the killers? Insofar the bicycle introduces this possibility, yes I think you may be right. Another British “leak” that undermines the French story. They have already had to abandon the lone crazed killer. What a foul-up!
Marlin
28 Jun, 2013 – 4:55 am re FB – “suspicious” was how his response struck me. “Methinks he did protest too much” and too eager to undermine by the use of ridicule, which in my mind rather reinforced the impression that what he was denying he knew to be true in fact. Who knows?
Marlin
28 Jun, 2013 – 11:50 pm shhhhhhhh if you promise not to tell anyone that was a bit of a fib just to keep James happy as I was a bit worried about his blood pressure back there. For god’s sake don’t let on to him though. He’ll be mortified if I’m not lol.
Now it really is time I went to bed but such a job to tear away from Glastonbury. Arctic Monkeys were sooo kool!!!
oh b4 i go i thought you might be all interested in this little post from “FB” –
“Fat Bastard
6-28-2013 at 19:32:45
@idle
the roof bars on the BMW
Sad bought them from an ebayer in milton keynes
i picked them up
these were different to his older BMW
so then all the adaptions had to be moved to them
for the tandem the bikes the trikes and the trike trailers
depending on what he was carrying
since they were out for a walk then bike(s) would have been left in the awning of the caravan”
– See more at: http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-shooting-saad-al-hilli-sylvain-mollier-part-7/comment-page-62/#comment-13462
So neither Tim or you Marlin,think it odd that the Americans won’t hand over vital information on this mystery ?
I will be interested to see what BB thinks of it.
“Annecy chief prosecutor Eric Maillaud believes clues into the shooting of the al-Hilli family in September last year could lie in computer data stored on US internet servers.
But American judges will not hand over potentially crucial information for ‘privacy reasons’, Mr Maillaud said.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/al-hilli-family-french-alps-murder-
1736660#ixzz2XXOYYGYu
Since when did American judges come into this ?
That link does not seem to work, so here it is again:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/al-hilli-family-french-alps-murder-1736660
Tim’s comments with regard to “Fat Bastard”.
“….and the trike trailers”
Interesting as in one photo taken of the Claygate house (looking from the rear). The front drive can be seen. Parked there, towards the hedge, there looks to be an orange “trike trailer”.
To my knowledge the only picture of “the trike bike” that was published was of the bike on the roof of the BMW.
Fat Bastard could be a “sharp eyed sleuth”. Or a “neighbour”. Or indeed a “best friend”.
Then again, maybe just well briefed !
But is there anything “flowing” from Fat Bastard ? Is there any insight into Sa’ad the man, other than what he has told The Press ?
He’d know about previous employers I imagine. Any insight from him about that ? What about his time contracting ? Anything about those clients/projects ?
What about the visit to Iran ? OR his time in Dubai ? Did he travel to Iran from Dubai ? How long was he in Dubai for ? How did he meet his future wife…and “date” her. She was afterall “resident” in Dubai ?
…and what about Sa’ad’s father and uncle ? Any information coming forth about their business dealing when they arrived in London ?
@James
29 Jun, 2013 – 12:01 pm
I asked FB about SAH’s family background, he claimed he knew nothing. But only after jumping down my throat about my own genealogical background.
More weird ramblings from him on MZT today.
Odd one there I think.
Mochyn69
He wants to know “what happened” to his friend. He can’t find “answers” so joins a forum on the subject.
Yet he doesn’t seem to give out any answers ?
The knowledge gained from information gathered here could be enough to “set yourself up” as “the friend” of Sa’ad.
Incidentally “if” he is the person he is claiming to be, then that person seems to be the “public” view of the personal life of Sa’ad Al Hilli.
He was one of the first “much quoted” people that appeared in the press….and then on that “docudrama”. And yet says nothing of the “working life of Sa’ad the contractor”.
He said that Sa’ad’s car was a BMW 525. It appears on a couple of “parts finding” websites as a BMW 530 ?
And yet whilst such a car as that tends to be automatic….he says (quite correctly) that in fact it had a manual gearbox !
A strange situation indeed.
katie 7:58 AM. We have indeed seen that allusion by EM to the American “judges” who meanly won’t let him have the internet records. The reason speculation on this was somewhat mute is because it looks very much like some kind of an excuse. one of many EM and friends in France have come up with.
It sort of reminded me of the “morbid” excuse for not sharing the famous Doussard photo reputed to have been taken at 3:15 Pm and showing everyone happy and smiling.
Or the other “privacy” excuse hurled at UK authorities for not letting poor EM private and unimpeded access to the two girls or to zaid.
basically, it looks to me like EM’s plan to pin it somehow on Zaid – something he keeps trying to do – is meeting with some obstacles.
My capcha today: 2 + 2 + 4 (see? i got the answer right!).
So how about this as a purely hypothetical scenario?
The central players are SM and the people who arrive in the 4×4. This is ostensibly agents of Iran who wish to exchange money (big bucks) for technical information on zirconium manufacture, essential in the use of centrifuges in the uranium concentration process. Option one: they are genuine and arrive but a shooter appears and they rush off at speed. Option two: this was a ruse of a foreign agency to uncover long-term suspicions, and in fact the foreign agency opposed to Iranian nuclear advance, send their agents instead. British SIS monitor the exchanges and decide to witness, sending the Al Hillis as innocent tourists as cover to be on site at the time of the meeting or as source of necessary finance. WBM as further back-up and intermediary to transfer information back to London.
I realise this is FULL OF HOLES and hardly stands up to even superficial scrutiny. However it may trigger the odd thought. My feeling is, despite protests to the contrary, which may indeed be accurate, SM was prime target material. He had lost his job and we presume his income for all intents and purposes permanently. He may well have been harbouring a grudge against his employer or at least free of duty to them. It is probable he also harboured anti American and anti Israeli feeling given his political background. He had just had an expensive and bankrupting divorce. He had new responsibilities at the same time his self view as male earner had been knocked. He had just lost his father. He was at the typical mid-life crisis phase. He was under pressure from his new in-laws to prove himself and be financially self supporting. All this would make him particularly susceptible to financial inducement. He may not have held senior management position in the company, but he did possess something infinitely more valuable to an emerging industry – vast and lengthy practical experience in a particular and sophisticated process.
Given the huge commercial implications of offending mortal enemies with whom France/Areva has contracts in the nuclear field, this would certainly be sufficient reason to distance SM from the events at Chevaline at all costs.
Just random ideas to encourage debate folks.
How about… lone or French nutter sits in forest.
His inspiration comes from “The valley of wrath”.
On that day a family drives upon this nutters “killing ground”.
The French “blunder” through the investigation….as France is already breaking apart through racial tensions.
And this they need like a hole in the head ?
The latest on the Hastings accident:
http://www.news.com.au/world-news/reporter-michael-hastings-sent-panicky-email-hours-before-sudden-car-crash-death/story-fndir2ev-1226669297371
The FBI had been on the Mastro case, and the Mastros were living in Marceau/Doussard.
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2019542345_mastro28m.html
What might have been in the background of that secret photo of the al-Hilli family in front of a house in Doussard?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/12/french-alps-shooting-photographs-taken
In case we’d forgotten, this article mentions the al-Hilli case in relation to the Mastro case, a tenuous one at best, but also mentions various incidents in Annecy that had been discussed in these forums:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/23/michael-mastro-flee-law-at-87
Ever since I came across a photo of some large raw logs stacked at a roadside pullout, very similar to the one where the murders occurred, I have wondered about the description of the “car park”, and how it was supposedly a lovely place to take a hike/have a picnic with young children, etc. Others have said it was not a place to take a family with young children. You can find the photo at “Photo of Foret combe d’ire, Doussard, France” here: http://www.panoramio.com.
A logging road, with active logging ongoing, is not an appropriate place for cars, vans, bicyclist, hikers or picnickers and especially not children. Logging is inherently dangerous, and logging trucks go downhill with little ability to stop, let alone on a dime.
It’s a small thing, but it has not been reconciled in my mind.
Timber theft is a problem in France, as elsewhere:
http://www.talkfrance.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1929
I wonder if the gendarmes ever visited the British couple who owned land in “Haute-name” after this:
“At the same time he said that if we insist on collecting the wood he will never speak to us again and, in effect, will not be responible for what happens to us. During the conversation he mentioned “bullets”. My wife speaks fluent French and did not we think misunderstand him.”
Uttering threats, and mentioning bullets in the “Haute-name” region, in a dispute over illegally-harvested timber. You’d think something like that would be brought to the attention of the authorities.
@Marlin
29 Jun, 2013 – 9:23 pm
Another thought on the “American Judges”. Which American Judges? How about the secret FISA(?)judges we all now know about courtesy of Edward Snowden.
Is it just an excuse, or does it have a bearing on the internet surveillance scandal and US/EU security relations?
After all we now learn from Snowden that the Evil Empire has been bugging the EU.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23116055
http://news.silobreaker.com/der-spiegel-allege-the-us-bugged-multiple-eu-offices-5_2266924102931447817
@Q
30 Jun, 2013 – 12:52 am
I just noticed this from the Guardian report you linked to:
‘Police reopened the Place du Martinet and the Combe d’Ire shortly after the killings, then closed it, fearing “murder tourism” and an invasion of journalists. Last week, alongside the dessicating flowers, police also found the ashes of a recent campfire.’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/12/french-alps-shooting-photographs-taken
Can’t say I noticed that bit before, but it possibly explains the scorched ground seen in the photos of the journos at the scene.
Now if that campfire was lit after the event, what kinda weird fuck would want to do that?
Tim v 12:45 AM Photo:
Yes, I looked at my own collection and found something like this photo too(may be a bit off in time, but not much) – chopped conveniently just on the RHS, just as you said. It’s like the photo was originally cropped and now the Express, brings it up again, uncropped with the mysterious white object that may or may not be a bike. can anyone blame us for taking it as a hint?
Well, you know my little theory about the “game”. I think that photo was brought out precisely to generate the speculation people are engaged in, kind of giving the finger to EM (my interpretation of the gambit; ‘we got more of those stashed away…remember? just whose helicopter was it, eh? so better take heed. and BTW, we are still pissed…”).
Am not really sure it’s THE bike, but it’s like it’s meant to bring up that particular speculation, don’t you think?
There is reason to believe both this and the MZT blogs are being followed. Just part of the game, not because we are all that close to the “solution”. I’m enjoying BTW, the round-and-round on MZT. especially about the car tracks. (insert – 🙂 ).
Tim V 9:28Pm – cute scenario, though like you say, a bit of swiss cheese? especially the Al-Hillis sent as “tourists”. All of them? neh….
It could however be that SAH was meant to be there but him bring the whole family along was not part of the plan.
Parts of your theory have merit – and we agreed on aspects in the past. like SM starting the shooting and there being a double cross somewhere along the way. I never thought of the possibility of there being another party there which got “scared of”. It’s possible of course. lots of traffic in them woods that day, no?
Am BTW extremely suspicious of that third bicyclist materializing seemingly out of nowhere. Complete with early reports in french and all. And they are asking me to believe that with all the people here, on MZT and on DI back in 2012 – all scouring every news article – in french and English – that such an important detail would go un-noticed? they are inserting history, I’m telling you. Had that suspicion for some time now. that’s why i became pre-occupied with going over the same old report. It’s like an episode out of the twilight zone – there it wasn’t and there it is.
I think it’s funny the way they snuck it in though – I believe that the “three” bicyclists were first mentioned in the docudrama – or some account of it. No sooner that was done that sa french speaker on MZT finds the new article – back from september, no less – and not only do we have a third cyclist, but he took refuge in a house in Chevalin and was singing to the shelter -providing lady like there’s no tomorrow. And someone is trying to tell me that we could have all missed that at the time?
So here s my question; check with your latest scenario of SM being a target partly because he got himself in a tizzy due to circumstances….where does the third cyclist fit in? who the heck was he anyways/ and why have we not heard from him since?
I do think that the idea of SM being in a vulnerable place financially is a distinct possibility – and i now this was discussed here plenty before. Just wish I had more solid evidence of what it was he could deliver….
My main hope is that if, as we suspect, the “Brits” agency is seriously unhappy with the turn of events, there will be more revelations coming out of nowhere – kind of like the ben Zygier affaire.
Typos galore – no point in even starting to correct. Sorry – me bad. Typing too fast to keep up with thoughts – always a problem (an aside – in real life i also talk too fast. Got to do something about that – one of these days….).