The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
James
6 Jul, 2013 – 1:19 pm
You ask: “The point is, if the police say that Saad reversed in a hurry, then where was the other car ?”
I would answer “We don’t know for sure other than it couldn’t have been in THAT lay-by.”
As I have previously argued, that’s another reason why it wasn’t SAH’s car that caused those circular tyre marks.
Tim.
Those marks therefore “could” have been made by any one of… or more than one of…three different vehicles.
1. We “know” Saad’s car was there.
2. We suspect that another BMW was there (although not sure).
3. It’s claimed that Bossy drove into the car park…and turned around for a quick escape.
Add a further possibility, emergency response vehicles arrived at the scene.
And we’re left with what the police tell us.
Saad made a “reversing move to escape from the frontal attack”.
And yet (this is the odd bit) they tell “us” that they are looking for a 4×4 BMW.
You see my point ? Where was the BMW 4×4 ?
Because if it wasn’t in the car park…why look for it ?
That’s the bit that has me puzzled.
Tim.
Put it another way.
If this was a “hit”.
Then did the “hitter” get the “hittee”.
Did they shoot the wrong car ????
Because “IF” it was the wrong car, then that explains a lot of the…
1. “WHY didn’t the police issue a description of the vehicle they were looking for”.
2. “WHY in Martin’s interview was it NOT disclosed that he had identified a BMW on UK plates passing him (possibly TWICE)”.
None of us were there (hopefully!) but we can use the powers of reason with which humans have been endowed (hopefully!)
I think the killers were in a 4×4 at the top end of the lay-by, pointing out. They knew what they were there for. Their arrival was perfectly timed and therefore likely carefully directed by others. They held back until both SM AND SAH were together before the order “Attack Attack Attack” (or similar) was given. (Whether someone said “Sweet” afterwards is wholly conjectural)
The driver put his right foot down to the floor sending a cloud of smoke from the exhaust that appears to have left a trail on the ground. He (she?) let out the clutch that momentarily spun the rear wheels and front off side front wheel as it steers to the right towards the standing targets.
Now as to targets, I take the view that ALL were.
The rational reason I take that view is that if the target was ONLY the Al Hillis, the shooting could have taken place either sooner or later to avoid completely the approaching cyclists, who they knew were coming because they were over-taken on the way up. That they didn’t shoot at WBM is confirmation of this.
If the target had ONLY been SM why not shoot him as they overtook him on the way up or some more appropriate time? (Remember to his close confidants, he wasn’t even meant to be there!) And why take unnecessary risk, exacerbate the crime, by shooting him when others were present and approaching?
People don’t carry out multiple shootings of men and women in the presence of children without motivation or orders to do so, even if the likes of Lynda on MZT and others think it’s perfectly normal.
Reason tells me that WBM’s story about a passing 4×4 on the way up and on the way back fit’s the evidence on the ground and everything points to all the victims being intentional targets with just one reservation – were SM and WBM confused? However the fact that this was France and SM had dismounted and was conversing with the Al Hillis, kind of clinches it in my mind.
The only rational alternative to a planned assassination is indeed a psychopathic madman. The absence of any public safety advice or evident local concern, proves in my mind that it was never considered a genuine possibility. Surely EM would have issued advice to take care, to stay in doors, to ask for information on any one acting abnormally. He didn’t EVEN warn people to stay clear of that remote forest area where one might expect another attack to take place!
“People don’t carry out multiple shootings of men and women in the presence of children without motivation or orders to do so”
Well you never spent time in “Boz” then !
Back in the 90’s it was all the rage there.
So with “split second timing” and with no other people at this public car park….the killers arrived. In a BMW and motorbike.
And the police…who knew that there was a “UK Plated BMW 4×4” involved, failed to release this information ?
And then released it ?
I can’t buy that.
The logic is that this information was with held because they “had an idea” as to who was in that vehicle.
This would not put them any further forward…as they were not the killers.
And another thing. You carry ONE pistol, in such a large car ?
That “lone” gunman, using the most logical mode of transport (a motorbike) made a mistake !
Martin was not the first to arrive, the 4×4 was…and they/he/she made a rather rapid exit
“The only rational alternative to a planned assassination is indeed a psychopathic madman”.
So the fact that the “other” vehicle on the combe D’Ire that day was “another” large, UK plated BMW makes it not “curious” ?
And that the “ONLY” alternative is a “madman” ?
Tim.
If you don’t think that “my view” is possible.
Explain what the role of the motorbike was ?
If “he” was NOT also involved with “the team”, then why hasn’t “he” come forward.
If he was part of “the team”, why the hell bring a stonking great BMW 4×4 to the party !
No longer the “costa del crime”… but “Le vin et crime”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259774/Dordogne-gangster-bust-linked-Premiership.html
And buying “older” guns isn’t that hard.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4528145/Sun-investigation-into-the-secret-tide-of-guns-from-France.html
Pink
I have heard of geocaching and barely understand how it works, but in maybe October last year realised it was a possiblity (probably someone here mentioned it) there was an item cached in the area but it was miles from Martinet far closer to the other end of the trail where you would rejoin regular roads. I cant even remember the location it was nearest to.
Looking at your link, previously I dont remember seeing the encrypted part but saw the reviews about difficulty and how worthwhile it was.
Strawberry there is a cache at Doussard ,a cache at Chevaline church ,a cache in the ivy on the wall somewhere according to the photo’s!
Can someone check GC27C6X as my comp doesn’t want to play
http://www.mides.fr/geocache-GC27C6X I know its near flowers house.
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC27C6H
Pink…
There is also ONE at the Waterfall on the way up the Combe D’ire.
It’s a challenging one by all accounts.
They talk of missing the car park and parking on the route.
And this is the kicker.
If you read the “comments” on would found it, they end August 2012.
Maybe it was a “treasure hunt” afternoon.
One of the families that found it, also posted two pictures of themselves.. and their prize.
They post pictures of themselves finding the cache !
Like Arnand ?
“La cascade du Creux de l’Enfer”
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=bd253824-bc80-43bb-a455-8abcf0d6fd82
Translated it reads……
Short hike above the village of Chevaline – south of Lake Annecy.
You can reach the cache, and therefore the waterfall, in less than half an hour by a forest trail starting at the parking Tarfet.
Because of the steep slope and forest, GPS reception is unclear, but surely you will come by using the HINTS and SPOILERS.
In any case, there is not to approach the ravine side “cascade”.
The cache is about 20 m below the trail
********************************************************************
Of course The Martinet and The Tarfet are the car parks.
Miss one, you’ll get to the other I guess.
Remember the guy from the Isle of Man ?
He claimed he was at the “car park” on that day.
He said he’d gone to see the waterfall.
He did indeed. He’s made the same mistake.
He found the right car park and confused it in his interview with the one that the Al Hilli family were at.
My “best guess”.
Saad had taken his daughter and family on a “treasure hunt” that afternoon.
A “drive out” for his family…and a “treasure hunt” for his daughter.
He went to Arnand. Then he went to La cascade du Creux de l’Enfer.
His daughter was sat in the front to “help” with the tracking.
However the GPS is not that good on the forest route and they miss the car park at the waterfall.
Saad’s BMW enters the “The Martinet” car park thinking it to be “The Tarfet” car park.
Then the shooting.
A second BMW enters the car park at The Martinet.
Most likely after the shooting has stopped (just stopped).
Possibly whilst the attack on the eldest daughter was underway.
That BMW was driven by the likely target.
Realising this….he/they leave in a hurry.
Now being out of bullets he is unable to attack the second BMW and realizing the mistake he has made, the killer mounts his motorbike and also makes his exit and goes to ground.
Thanks James I am a bit distracted as comp is not handling my searches well and everything is taking ages to much weekend traffic 🙂
I think treasure hunting fits the bill very well, is it possible that someone could have tracked their movements and followed is my only reserve.
It kinda places the crime in france though not uk based a bit complicated for a long distance plot.
Pink…
I believe this is totally French.
Well…maybe English “gang-stars” living in France.
But I really think Saad was in the “wrong place”.
Maybe even Mollier.
Find that “second” BMW… and you may find the killers or at least the killers director.
@Tim 12:34 a.m.: Thank you. That was helpful. It seemed like E7 was shooting on the fly at point-blank range before the police car had stopped fully. Shoot first, ask questions later, with 0.06 seconds to sight the target. An ordinary hunter, equipped with a rifle and a licence to shoot a deer, would likely lose his licence and face legal action for careless use of a firearm if caught shooting so quickly on a target he could barely have had time to identify. For reference regarding hunting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23195349
What if Rodney had been a father out for a drive with his family? Could E7 have made a positive identification in 0.06 seconds? Clearly, E7 was not using a hunting rifle, nor was E7 using an antique weapon of any description. Rodney was a sitting duck.
The reporter’s use of “preemptive strike” to describe the incident is an interesting choice of words, as “preemptive strike” is a term popularly used by the military to describe actions against terrorists, or perceived terrorists. That has led to some fatal actions against non-terrorists. Other agencies in the fight against terrorism also use pre-emptive strikes.
With all the curious events going on in the Annecy region around the time of the Chevaline massacre, a case of mistaken identity cannot be dismissed. However, the targets may have been the intended ones.
A side point: it is very odd that this discussion has come around to GPS and geocaching, as this is what happened in online discussions about the mysterious case of deceased scientist Lachlan Cranswick, whose disappearance from his home in the middle of the night has never been explained. Cranswick had more than one GPS system and a mobile phone, which he left behind when he set out his recycling bin (on a non-collection week) and headed out for a stroll on the frozen river in the middle of winter, leaving his house unlocked and the lights on. The normally detail-oriented Cranswick tossed all caution to the wind that night and went on a misadventure that led to his demise.
@ Tim: When it comes to 0.06 seconds to identify anything or anyone, “Which One’s Fred?”
What the BBC says:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/preemptive.shtml
@ Bleb 12:28 a.m.: Yes, indeed, the issue of phones and tracking has been discussed at length in the past concerning Chevaline.
http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.savoie-mont-blanc.com/offre/fiche/chapelle-saint-martin/sitraPCU390554&prev=/search%3Fq%3DChapelle%2BSaint-Martin%2Bchevaline%26biw%3D1067%26bih%3D501
From searching “the cache”.
How very odd. That is the route in from Arnand is it not ?
The rural route.
And zoom in on the map ?
Look at the names.
Ducher ? Paul and Lise Ducher ?
They were witnesses to the escape of the “Peugeot” ??
The cache (not on the Combe D’Ire, but the route Saad to it).
“Located at the entrance of the Combe d’Ire at the foot of coal, Chevaline has long been the smallest municipality in the department. The cover will help you discover the Chapelle Saint-Martin twelfth century”.
If Fat Bastard gets to read this…
You may be letting on “less than you must know” !
It was a “treasure hunt”.
The “cache” at Arnand …and then to The Waterfall.
They didn’t release the photo at Arnand as they are holding the “cache” ?
The “finders” post them online.
But they missed the other car park on the way up the route.
They ended up at “The Martinet” not “The Tarfet”. They were at The Martinet by complete accident.
So the “second” BMW that arrived, the one the police are looking for, is because “they” were the intended victims ?
Is that why the police (and Martin) never mentioned the second BMW at the start.
And the police know this ?
Organised Crime is far more scary than “The Government” I would say.
@ James
6 Jul, 2013 – 6:59 pm
“Because of the steep slope and forest, GPS reception is unclear, but surely you will come by using the HINTS and SPOILERS.”
Is this the first semi independent corroboration we’ve had of no signal? If so, everything we discussed about WBM(?) -> PD/B(?) first call is reinforced.
The motor cyclist makes 3 and 3 = kidron though of course I’m not suggesting there is any evidence of that. Just a bit of circumstantial. People/cars there at the time, that don’t come forward are immediately suspicious arn’t they?
As is announcing a vehicle eight months after the event when it must have been seen and described at the time. What possible purpose did it serve other than sending covert signals to the French or whoever?
I have little doubt that the vehicles and their sponsors are known to one or both investigating teams.
Tim…
That GPS signals.
You can still get them, they’re just “patchy”.
It doesn’t mean there was a “kidron” at all. It means they may have had a very good reason for the family (the whole family) to be at up the Combe D’ire.
Satellites ! Your dad works in them. What a fun way to use them.
No one as far as I can see has put forward ANY explanation as to “where the second BMW went” before it passed Martin (a second time ?).
And no one has put forward a reasoned argument as to why they didn’t release the BMW 4×4 information earlier.
We have “Kidron’s” ! And as no one can prove or disprove otherwise, then for some reason that becomes “fact”.
It doesn’t add up !
“The motor cyclist makes 3 …..and 3 = kidron”
f*ck me !
Three is the magic number.
Any murder with “3” in it over the last 20 years MUST be a Jewish led plot ! For feck sake. Have an open mind.
Q
6 Jul, 2013 – 9:54 pm
0.06 secs is not enough to do anything but point a hand and contract a finger. It is merely the final dénouement of the hours, days and weeks leading up to it. It is the result of training, preparation and ethos. Of unquestioning allegiance to the group, brief and orders in relation to an operation. People who would rescue a bee in the conservatory are able to send six bullets into another human being. This is what soldiers and the para-military are conditioned to do without question. If it’s not a psychopath it’s someone trained to kill to order.
James @ 6 Jul, 2013 – 11:29 pm
Your “second BMW = intended victim(s)” theory.
1) How does the arrest of ZAH and statements by EM re ZAH fit into this theory?