Freedom Cheaper than Iraq War 764


A particularly mendacious lie by Danny Alexander puts the institutional start-up costs of Scottish Independence at £1.5 billion.  That is a cool half billion pounds cheaper than Scotland’s share of the costs of the Iraq and Afghan wars, even on the Westminster government’s blatant under-estimate of the war costs.

So Scotland can afford criminal invasions killing hundreds of thousands to ‘bring freedom’, but cannot afford the smaller cost of its own freedom!!!

The £1.5 billion estimate is mendacious in two ways.  Firstly, it is a simple recycling of a Canadian lie at the time of the Quebec independence referendum, apportioning with no argument 1% of GDP to startup costs.

Secondly, as nearly all the money will be spent in Scotland it is not a loss at all, but actually an increase to GDP, as any but the most nutty neo-con would be forced to acknowledge.  And it would be the precursor of government money spent annually in Scotland rather than England for ever thereafter.

Thankfully Alexander won’t have a job much longer – and if he thinks a penny of Scottish public spending is going in future to support his huge arse and deceitful mouth, he is very wrong.

 


764 thoughts on “Freedom Cheaper than Iraq War

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  • Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    RD; HRW suggested Kyev should investigate, and followed up with this letter today.

    “I am writing to raise issues relating to the conduct of military operations in southeastern Ukraine in light of the growing number of credible reports regarding Ukrainian forces’ use of mortars and other weapons in and around populated areas, and the recent intensifying of hostilities between Ukrainian forces and armed insurgent groups‎. While we have not been in a position to investigate the most recent hostilities or many of the incidents reported in the press in the past week, our researchers did investigate two apparent mortar attacks in residential areas while on a field mission in Donetsk region between May 19 and May 26″

    ‘Both sides do it” but could not confirm outgoing mortars, only direct hits on structures fired by Ukrainian forces; (yeah a couple of witnesses stated insurgents had mortars, but use of same was not evidenced). HRW had a tether on objectivity for the sake of objectivity, I think.

    I think you should agree that Kyev has the advantage of overwhelming force and weaponry. There has been no investigation by Kyev, to my knowledge and that was my question to you.

    If they thought they had proof of their innocence they would be heralding from the rooftops, no?

  • Resident Dissident

    Ben

    Your statement was about Odessa you have twisted it in to something else.

    Re Eastern Ukraine – doesn’t the number of helicopters shot down by the armed insurgents suggest that someone is supplying them with pretty sophisticated weapons – and of course lets not mention all the human rights abuses that they are carrying out (see the UN report). I don’t support anyone firing at civilians on either side – but I’m afraid that is what happens in armed conflicts – the better questions to ask is who is responsible for starting the armed conflict where there was none before and how can it be stopped.

  • Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    RD; I referenced your source. Have I done something wrong? Please answer the salient question, repeated above.

  • Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    The even-handed Barack Hussein Obama.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/05/politics/obama-europe/

    “Putin “has a chance to get back into a lane of international law,” Obama said.
    But for this to happen, he said, Putin must take steps over the coming weeks that include recognizing Ukraine’s new President-elect Petro Poroshenko, stopping the flow of weapons over the border into Ukraine and ceasing Russian support for pro-Russia separatists in Ukraine”

    Libya, Iran and Syria notwithstanding.

  • Resident Dissident

    Ben

    You said there was no investigation of Odessa – there is and you should wait for the conclusion. As to the other events in Eastern Ukraine I don’t think HRW has asked for an investigation and it is pretty clear that the Ukrainian army is using mortars – whether it was firing at purely civilian targets or insurgents near to such targets is something that will probably never be known. Given that the restraint shown by the Ukrainian government for many weeks against the insurgents – while said insurgents were hardly showing similar restraint (I must have missed you condemnation of their torture and intimidation and shooting down of helicopters with SAM missiles), I do tend to believe that the Ukranian government is not hell bent on blood lust against local civilians in Eastern Ukraine – though as is always the case their ability to control everyone under their command may have limits. Just as we are justifiably proud today of our troops who helped liberate Europe it doesn’t mean that all of those involved were angels at all times.

  • Resident Dissident

    “But for this to happen, he said, Putin must take steps over the coming weeks that include recognizing Ukraine’s new President-elect Petro Poroshenko, stopping the flow of weapons over the border into Ukraine and ceasing Russian support for pro-Russia separatists in Ukraine”

    But why is this not right, regardless of what happened elsewhere?

  • Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    ” there is and you should wait for the conclusion.” I think the story related that the prosecutor’s investigation began in early May. When did HRW begin and conclude? I think you should be skeptical about the scope and arrival time of the report.

  • Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    ““But for this to happen, he said, Putin must take steps over the coming weeks that include recognizing Ukraine’s new President-elect Petro Poroshenko, stopping the flow of weapons over the border into Ukraine and ceasing Russian support for pro-Russia separatists in Ukraine”

    Why do I find this objectionable? Maybe because it is tipped against Russia and lacking the the commensurate warning to the offical government and cronies.

    How is it you don’t see that?

  • BrianFujisan

    Thanks to the Folks commenting on my Poem…Very Uplifting words… Thank you… Mary what a chuckle the wee Clapping face gave me… 🙂

    yes John…i have always been of the same thoughts as yourself – that Thomas Hardy Prose is better Poetry than his poems… thanks for that info…On T.H…some of that i didn’t know – the repercussions from “Jude the Obscure” being banned ect.

    Mary

    Sorry bit late getting back to you Re Glasgow.

    To be Honest i’m not sure whats been going on…Interesting for sure though…. especially a possible link to epigenetics –

    BUT i fear it’s not just Glasgow in Scotland… right here in my area Inverclyde these matters are close…

    about 10 months ago three of our Jui jitsu boys lost two friends from their circle, Days apart to suicide.

    Unemployment, may very well be a big factor…. And cut throat Policies by the likes of Amazon ( factory in Gourock ) … they take on young and old for very short periods when orders are high ect.. and for as little as only two weeks at xmas… then people are shoved out on their ear again… Recently 500 youngsters applied for only a handful of apprenticeships in one of only two yards left on the Clyde – At Ferguson’s of Port Glasgow.

    And yet the Gyms, swimming pools, football pitches, Dojo’s are all vibrant places… As are Also, the Greenock, and Gourock night life…all a bit perplexing… My Daughter has a degree in Social Science.. maybe she can shed some light on some of this for us.

    You got me thinking a little more on this Mary and i looked some things up

    there is a possible counter Argument for the Glasgow situation…that being – the end of the Shipyards and Factories was not the problem for Glasgow…but the start of these industries was the Problem

    Glasgow Author Carol Craig says to understand Glasgow’s early deaths you should look not to the end of the shipyards and factories but instead to their beginning

    In the early 18th Century, Glasgow was described by the author Daniel Defoe as “the cleanest and beautifullest and best built city in Britain”. But when the Industrial Revolution drew thousands of people from Ireland, the Lowlands and Highlands, the population exploded and for many it became a living hell.

    In the early 18th Century, Glasgow was described by the author Daniel Defoe as “the cleanest and beautifullest and best built city in Britain”. But when the Industrial Revolution drew thousands of people from Ireland, the Lowlands and Highlands, the population exploded and for many it became a living hell.

    “I was so struck by the very nasty and aggressive relationship between men and women historically in Glasgow,” Craig says. “And that was partly as a result of the terrible overcrowding – it was worse than England. Having a front room or parlour was practically unheard of.”

    She explains that in 1891 the London County Council defined overcrowding in terms of two or more person in a room. In the metropolis one third fell below this standard but in Glasgow two thirds – or twice London’s number – of residents lived in overcrowded accommodation.

    Enforced proximity, she argues, forced men out of their homes and into the pub. “It was a kind of survival mechanism,” she says. “In the old Glasgow on a Friday when men got paid, you would see women queuing outside workplaces and pubs to retrieve any of the money. This was very much a city where men suited themselves.”

    In her 2010 book, The Tears That Made the Clyde, Craig suggests that rapid industrialisation in Glasgow produced a toxic masculinity which destroyed family life.

    According to the Glasgow and Clyde Health Board, in just two years almost half of all homes in the city will be single-adult households.

    “There is a failure of personal relationships in Glasgow that no one is facing up to,” says Craig. “This is significant because what is the single most important thing for men’s health? It’s being married – it can account for as much as seven years of life expectancy. So if we want to find out why health in Glasgow is so poor I think one of the things that we should ask about is relationships.”

    Burns agrees that relationships are key. He talks about the need to build “social capital” so individuals can offer each other friendship and mutual support. He is also heavily influenced by the Israeli-American sociologist Aaron Antonovsky, who coined the term “salutogenesis” to describe an approach which focuses on a positive view of wellbeing rather than a negative view of disease…

    And Re epigenetics –

    What’s certain is that there are no easy answers. Even in the better off neighbourhoods, mortality rates are 15% higher than in similar districts of other big cities. Burns is perplexed by this but suggests hidden influences upon the genes could be responsible.

    “A lot of those middle-class people will have been very poor somewhere in their family tree,” he says. “And this takes us into the field of epigenetics – the business of genes being switched on or off depending on the environment you were brought up in. There is an epigenetic impact of the diet that your parents or grandparents were exposed to. Now we can easily find scientific explanations for this – we just haven’t proved it yet.”

    During his lectures, Burns has a favourite slide which shows the molecular biology of a hug. “When you hug a baby you make them happy,” he says. “Happiness is associated with the production of neurotransmitters in the brain. One of these neurotransmitters has an effect on a particular gene which activates the production of a protein that allows the brain to suppress the stress response. Failure to nurture a baby – failure to do something as simple as hug a child – interferes with that process.”

    Burns believes in early intervention and there are many organisations now devoted to this. Lickety Spit, a pioneering theatre company, creates plays for three and four-year-olds in the most deprived parts of Scotland. It fires children’s imaginations but even more crucially perhaps it encourages parents to get down on their hands and knees and bond with their offspring.

    A BIG complex one Mary

    Anyhoo… a good weekend to you…Oh and not forgetting a wee Hug

  • BrianFujisan

    Fuck…

    Sorry for double paste job

    HWR have been up to the usual nasty tricks all week Ben… Disgraceful Propaganda and Biased utterings on Fbook all week… and i’ve been fighting with them all week too.

  • Mary

    Thank you very much for that Brian. You put a lot of effort in there and it was illuminating. I totally agree about the genetic inheritance part and also about the nurturing of children. Who knows what the upbringing was like of a psychopath such as Blair. Something went wrong along the way.

    PS My father was brought up in Limerick and he told us of the women standing outside the pubs at night trying to get the men home before they spent all their wages and the barefooted children in the streets. That was in the 20s. Same here in the East End of London and other cities I assume. My mother was one of three born in Highgate. The father deserted her mother and the three children were farmed out to relatives when her mother died at a very young age. Although a young orphan brought up by grandparents and a hard childhood by her account, my mother could not have been more loving and caring for the four of us, so that must have been in her genes.

    Your family has been lucky to have you as their father. You can feel the love.

    Did you mean Human Rights Watch btw? Mr Roth has much accounting to do for his lies and distortions.

  • Resident Dissident

    “I think you should be skeptical about the scope and arrival time of the report.”

    By all means – but that is not the same as prejudging (which is of course the source of the word prejudice) it as you have done.

    “Maybe because it is tipped against Russia” If anything it is tipped against Putin – you are making the very big mistake of assuming the two are the same. Most ordinary Russians would not dream of being a mercenary in the Ukraine.

  • Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    “y all means – but that is not the same as prejudging” What makes you think an investigation is under way? I gladly stipulated that their PR people have announced, but I’m also skeptical they, or any government is eager to discover first, by evidence, that they behave with no regard for human rights, then announce that fact publicly. It’s a bridge far, too far.

  • Resident Dissident

    What makes you think an investigation is under way?

    Because people said the same about the Maidan shootings and the Ukraine Govt produced a detailed and documented investigation. The investigation is also a judicial investigation and if you had studied matters a little closer you would have noticed that the Ukrainian Govt have taken a number of important steps to separate the judiciary from government – something that the previous regime did not do, and is also of course something of a problem in Russia which inherited Soviet system. Strangely enough fascists are not usually known for undertaking such a separation.

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