The International Tribunal of the Law of the Sea, a UN body based in Hamburg, last week delivered a stern and unequivocal rebuke to the UK in ruling the UK has no legal interest in the maritime area of the Chagos Islands. You will recall that the UK in the 1970’s ethnically cleansed the entire population from Chagos at gunpoint to make way for the US nuclear base on the Chagos Island of Diego Garcia.
In its judgement, The Special Chamber of the Tribunal last week ruled (para 247) by 8 votes to 1 that the Maldives must agree a boundary with Mauritius, as
it is inconceivable that the United Kingdom, whose administration over the Chagos
Archipelago constitutes a wrongful act of a continuing character and thus must be
brought to an end as rapidly as possible, and yet who has failed to do so, can have
any legal interests in permanently disposing of maritime zones around the Chagos
Archipelago by delimitation.
The Tribunal was of course here following the UN General Assembly and the International Court of Justice; the illegality of British occupation of the Chagos Islands is now indisputable in international law. What this tribunal adds is the dismissal of the notion that the UK has any legal rights to impose administrative or regulatory measures on the grounds that sovereignty is disputed. The Tribunal has said the Chagos Islands are part of Mauritius and there can be no dispute.
I am pleased partly because of my long term advocacy for the Chagos Islanders, but also because enabling the coming into force of the Tribunal was one of the proudest moments of my life. It is a very long story, and some day I will tell it, but the short version is that the entry into force of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea had been delayed for decades because of a dispute over the deep seabed mining regime. This specified a licensing system for mining in the deep seabed beyond all national limits, with the proceeds from licenses being distributed to developing nations. The United States had refused to ratify and the entire Convention, including the Tribunal, had been stymied as Western European powers followed the US lead over deep seabed mining.
When I became Head of Maritime Section at the FCO and Alternate Head of the UK Delegation to the UN Preparatory Commission (Prepcom) for the Convention – which was tasked with sorting out the mess – I can genuinely say that by persuading the UK government to soften its stance, (a Herculean task within Whitehall) and by establishing a strong personal rapport with the leaders of the developing world delegations, and especially with Dolliver Nelson and UN Under Secretary General Satya Nandan, I broke the impasse. My writing talent in clever drafting that eventually fed into the Protocol on Deep Seabed Mining made a real difference, but it really was the fact that I mixed freely with the developing world delegations, and sat on the beach with them drinking rum punch or eating ackee and fish washed down with Red Stripe in local restaurants, that broke the barriers.
I don’t know how to make you believe this, but this really was pretty revolutionary. The Prepcom met in Jamaica for a month every year and again in New York every August, and the “First World” delegates just did not socialise with the “G77 Delegates” except at stilted formal occasions or with enormous condescension. Making real friends across the barrier was not normal. I strongly recommend to you the current BBC true story drama “The Serpent”. Apart from the major subject, its portrayal of the milieu, lifestyle and attitudes of Western diplomats abroad is absolutely spot-on. I made the political breakthrough just by being straight and friendly with people. Indeed the key compromises were agreed with Satya and Dolliver while we splashed our legs in a pool. By coincidence, the UK had the revolving chair of the Western European and Others (WEOG) group at just the crucial time, which was a great help in getting the compromises through.
I should add that the FCO Legal Adviser, David Anderson, was my boss most of the time at these meetings; he was arguably the world’s leading authority on the law of the sea and the primary credit for the Convention coming onto force goes to him. He was to become one of the first judges at the Tribunal. A true Yorkshireman, I remember many hours walking around Brussels and New York with him while he peered at restaurant menus finding where he could get his chosen meal cheapest. I should also mention the tolerant and visionary Dr John Hughes, my line manager, who trusted me and gave me huge latitude. It is further fair to note that others took on the work to completion after me as I was posted to Poland by the time the Convention came into force. But somewhere I have kept the lovely note from John Hughes telling me the Convention had come into force, and that while my name would not be on it, the achievement was enormous.
I am very conscious that the strain of being on trial, and particularly awaiting the verdict, has made me self-obsessed. I have received really awful online abuse since I published my affidavits, and it has led me to want to think about the real achievements of my life, and even about the time when I was highly valued within the political establishment rather than somebody entirely outside of respectable society. Not that I would change a thing about my whistleblowing and I am sure this maudlin period will pass. Please forgive and indulge me for a little while.
Being chosen as the seat of the Tribunal was very important both to Hamburg and Germany, and I remember an official visit there to look at the site and discuss the accommodation for judges, the diplomatic status of staff and numerous other points. The hospitality was amazingly good, and I got taken out on the Gorch Fock for a day, which I shall never forget.
So I am delighted now to see the Tribunal be so robust over the Chagos Islands. It really does matter that the UK is in defiance of these international courts. The UK has wide interests, and may from time to time need to seek the authority of the International Court of Justice or the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea to assert them. That the UK has ignored major and overwhelming majority rulings from these courts, will undoubtedly be likely to rule the courts’ perception of the UK in other cases. Which will, for example, one day include the maritime boundary dispute with an independent Scotland.
The major question on Scottish Independence in international law is whether Wales, England and Northern Ireland (WENI) and Scotland will both be successor states, inheriting all the legal benefits and obligations of the UK, or whether only WENI is the successor state to the UK and Scotland is a new state. This is a crucial matter. There are examples both ways. For example, only Russia is the successor state of the Soviet Union, whereas Czechia and Slovakia are both successor sates of Czechoslovakia.
If WENI wants to keep its position on the UN Security Council it will need to be the sole successor state. But if it is, it will need to inherit all of the UK’s national debt and Scotland none (as Russia did for the Soviet Union). There will be strong international interest in WENI not being the sole successor state, as a lever to get this second rate power off its anomalous position on the UN Security Council. There are also consequences for nuclear weapon power status. Then there is the question of the colonies – to whom will they belong after separation? A disproportionate number of Scots shed their blood in obtaining those colonies or died of malaria administering them. (It is not lost on me they shed a lot more of the blood of those the colonies were stolen from). Scotland should demand the Chagos Islands as its share of colonial possessions – and then immediately decolonise. A plan which properly explained will certainly help attain UN recognition. The US base would then become a matter of negotiation between Mauritius and the USA, but from the starting point of the US having no right to be there.
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I have no idea Craig, how it feels to be on the receiving end of online abuse as I have never been subject to it. I do though fully appreciate how awful it must feel and how it must get you down. I’m not going to say ‘ignore them’ either, because I know it isn’t as easy as that.
However, this post, and the enormous part you played in this result, is testament to why you simply must continue doing what you do. You might feel like a lone voice at times (and certainly, as currently, a persecuted one), but you are very much appreciated by many, many people.
Very much so. Whereas being respected by respectable society puts you in a category with people like Luke Harding, George Osborne, and Sir Keir Starmer.
I haven’t had any online abuse since Twitter banned me for refusing to retract “You zionist antisemite filth”.
Image of boot stamping on human face forever. Caption: “Stop … being … so … self … obsessed!”
No forgiveness or indulgence required. Such well-informed reminiscences are always interesting.
Dreadful to hear that you have suffered (even more) online abuse on top of the trial. Insult added to injury.
Hi Craig,
to make us believe something, just tell us! Your standing is good here. I just whacked off a donation to your defense fund, though I’m sure you’ll be awarded costs.I love these war stories of the foreign office, so if you’re in the mood, keep them coming.
– “…I mixed freely with the developing world delegations, and sat on the beach with them drinking rum punch or eating ackee and fish washed down with Red Stripe in local restaurants, that broke the barriers.”
Reminds me of festival crew campfire. Offices can be emotionally sterile and conductive to self importance.
Craig has an extraordinary list of achievements to his name – and many of them to the benefit of whole nations of people.
Fascinating final paragraph, Craig.
This is why Westminster objects to Scottish independence so.
This is so very interesting and relevant to Scotland’s EEA and more, as you say Craig. As someone who has worked and studied most of his adult life in the global maritime transport sphere, including transnational project collaborations with EU and UN and other agencies I would strongly agree that Scotland’s future is a maritime future. Indeed I have previously published on the matter of a (missing) Scottish Maritime Policy, something we have not had since the union: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248989211_Maritime_policy_in_Scotland
I can readily identify with your positive experience of improved international relations where cultural respect and friendship is prioritised, and indeed comes very natural to most peoples. I have to admit however that in many of the transnational projects I was a partner there was invariably one culture that was either wishing to dominate matters, or more often than not simply unwilling to participate. That was telling, especially where Scotland is at the minute.
In recent years Roy Pedersen and I were commissioned by SNP Westminster Group to write a report on a Scottish Maritime Policy, which we did. Our understanding is that UK civil servants running the Scottish Government are not receptive to any such policy, which is to be expected given it would provide Scotland with distinct global advantages and scope for international development. Scotland’s existing trade and hence development is severely constrained through dependence on seaports in England for international trade, as well as by the concentration of our remaining trade to/from England. Our emphasis was more towards ports and shipping and hence trade, however as you imply the territorial seas are even more important than that and move into the geopolitical strategic area and more.
Scotland’s decolonisation (which is what independence is) cannot come soon enough, much as George Kerevan implies in today’s National: https://www.thenational.scot/news/19053293.primary-reason-need-independence–and-need-now/
Here is another research paper specifically on Scottish ports that may be of interest: http://reidfoundation.org/2016/01/sort-out-our-ports/
Thanks for the article and the papers. Have read and enjoyed the former (a good argument) and downloaded the latter to read later, cheers.
As a seafarer Alf, I wonder does your maritime plan for shipping include the proviso that it will be manned by Scottish seafarers?
LeeJ, there is plenty of scope to expand opportunities for Scottish seafarers, provided the will and right expertise and strategy is there in government. There are opportunities across what is an under-developed ferry sector, as an example. Scotland really needs twice as many ferries on domestic island routes than we have today. Partly that is to do with inept wasteful government agencies specifying the wrong kind of boats, and we see where that has got as at FMEL. We also have opportunities to develop strategic ferry links to the continent, especially in light of Brexit, on both east and west coast. There are also potential new urban fast ferry services on Forth and Clyde, possibly also on the Tay, all of which I have researched. This all requires the right global maritime industry expertise and knowledge, and vision of course, which is lacking in the civil service and Ministerial level, they are all clueless and hence rudderless. Ports are another area badly in need of some thought especially in the central belt, a Tory legacy with offshore private equity ownership AND regulation of the firths, which has led to very little investment and exploitation of estuarial monopolies. What is left of Scotland’s maritime sector is chronically sick, just like any fully exploited colony. Our hope is in looking at former colonies and to see what can be done, in Dubai, Singapore, Malta, Suez, Oman, etc. This requires of course decolonisation, which is what independence is, effectively. Its a sad state of affairs, in which over a decade of National Party rule in devolved matters has proved useless, the SNP merely another level of colonial oppression, as we see in the situation with Craig, Alex Salmond and others.
Thank you for the detailed reply Alf. I ask because the British seafarer is becoming slowly extinct generally due to market forces. I am from Liverpool, a qualified and experienced master, but would not be able to get a job on a Stena ferry here. That is why I ask as unless there is some sort of caveat to employ local seafarers then I suspect it will be the same in an Independent Scotland. I am pro European and support free movement when wages and conditions are at the local rate. The UK seafarer has been long undercut due to the international nature of the industry. Regards.
Keep up the good work Craig. It is never easy being on the end of abuse or ridicule. For my part there are only a few people I like to follow the views of – you are one of them. It won’t surprise that I have similar views so I try to avoid the echo chamber wherever I can – but struggle to find balanced pieces with a counter argument.
My children regularly chastise me for being vocal in my opinion and my wife now just covers her ears ??? – but life goes on and the dream of an independent Scotland in a fairer world, which we can help be moulded, goes on.
Though no solace to you I’m sure – but the full story surrounding the AS affair, and its backdrop, will be outed eventually.
Stay strong and best wishes.
A brilliant posting Craig. Stay strong, keep writing.
Craig, I am truly saddened to hear your are receiving abuse as a result of a completely fabricated charge against you. Please be aware that for every one of these nasty trolls there are thousands of your supporters waiting quietly in the background for an independent Scotland and a better future.
Craig Murray – Many thanks for everything you have done – with Julian Assange, Alex Salmond, Chagos Islands.
As far as the abuse is concerned – online and otherwise – you are no doubt aware that if a fraction of what you state in your affidavits can be confirmed in a court of law, then Sturgeon will have to spend time behind bars in one of Her Majesty’s Emporia for the Ethically Challenged.
Therefore, you should fully expect basic survival instincts to kick in – absolutely every trick in the book will be used to stop key evidence escaping from the Crown Office and being presented; every trick in the book to discredit the whistleblowers. This is inevitable – these people will use every trick in the book because their survival and liberty depend on it.
I very strongly regret that you have to be in the firing line, that all the abuse is being thrown at you. You can rest assured that we’re basically right behind you – if anyone else can do anything to alleviate the situation then we’ll do what we can.
‘I don’t know how to make you believe this, but this really was pretty revolutionary.’
You don’t need to convince me, Mr Murray. My father was deputed to do colonial service in 1947 after refusing to do military service in 1946 on the grounds of conscience. He was trained in African law and the Swahili language at Oxford and SOAS and was duly sent to Tanganyika as a District Officer, to be based on the shores of Lake Victoria.
During his time there, he made plenty of friendships with Africans, one of whom was a highly competent medical doctor. He duly invited him to the ‘Officers Club’ and was rather peremptorily informed that his guest ‘would not be welcome’ not due to his competence rather due to his skin colour.
This actually led my father on the road to resigning from the service and writing what even now would be considered a rather arrogant and pompous letter to the PTB as to why he was resigning. I am sure you can imagine it well, based on your own actions in 2004/5.
His reputation with Africans, however, remained strong even thirty years later. By chance, when he took a bus to go and inspect a school in Camden and Westminster, he heard a couple of Africans speaking swahili and piped up in their tongue. The upshot of the conversation was that he was recognised as having built a new school in Bukoba and the man before him knew this as he had been one of its first pupils.
I actually believe that this one event convinced my father to return to SOAS upon retirement to relearn Swahili and from there he made an annual trip to Tanzania, for several years as Head Honcho of the Britain-Tanzania society.
Africans recognised a non-racist when they saw one. They recognised someone who spoke their language fluently. And they recognised someone who could build mutually beneficial linkages between the UK and Africa.
Eating and drinking together are probably two of the most sociable actions possible.
It is how real relationships develop and deepen…,..
What a great story!
Rhys Jaggar. You follow in your fathers good steps.
There’s a movie called “The Gatekeepers” (2012) about the Israeli internal security service, where a number of former leaders of the service are interviewed… they make the SAME point. Breaking bread with “the enemy” shows you that the others are in fact human too.
I’ve just ordered the DVD, following your recommendation, & look forward to seeing it. If I can make a recommendation in return: there’s a good video made by a Israeli liberal from Tel Aviv who visited settlements on the West Bank to meet right-wingers that she most disagreed with, “Natural born settlers” by Iris Zaki. It’s on Youtube.
Also worth a look on Youtube are an Al-Jazeera documentary about a restaurant called “Eucalyptus” in Jerusalem that deliberately brings together Jewish and Palestinian chefs, and a number of videos about the “East-West orchestra” that tries to do this for music.
All these are only drops in a difficult ocean, but worth having nevertheless IMHO.
What an admirable man your father was. I’m sure he’d be very proud of you.
Well done that dad.
You have every reason to indulge in a little retrospective pride, and more strength to you! Sentences like “My writing talent in clever drafting that eventually fed into the Protocol on Deep Seabed Mining made a real difference…” may jar the upper-class English sensibility, but “if you’ve got it, flaunt it!” Your writing is truly superb, and I am sure you are very good at drafting.
I suggest that you take the abuse as evidence of deep-seated envy, and enjoy it as such.
Late last night I came across your tweets about the latest SNP snafu. And yet another journo set to slinging mud and setting herself up to be a ‘victim of abuse’ by these calling out her calumny. Do they want to push you into suing? That tweet about the FCO intervention from her seemed to come out of nowhere – what does it mean?
It is fascinating and predictable to watch the Brittannia Unhinged crowd wanting to join a reignite TPP a few thousand miles away in its continued aggression towards China and Russia.
As it is equally predictable that the voters who were persuaded that BrexShit was about immigration and jobs and housing and wages having got rid of a few Europeans will now see tha influx of multiples more from the Far East as the anti Chinese/ Russian SCO expansion is attacked.
I think it very interesting that the vaccine ‘row’ is being portrayed to still gaslight the idiotic BrexShiteer voters and Bozo supporters. The Chinese and Sputnik vaccines may be implemented across the EU leaving even more egg on our faces. As it may become evident that they are more efficacious than our 100 million plus doses which have already been paid for.
Obviously you know a lot more that you can’t say due to legal restrictions of your previous career. A quick take on the latest on Myanmar would be helpful. It seems Blinken/Biden/Bozo suddenly have something new to contend with.
The knee jerk auto condemnation of China’s response but not of Thailand’s Generals is funny.
All your travails must keep you always busy and now a first grandchild (hearty congrats).
I look forward to the day you are recognised for your preeminence in standing for common human cause against the DeepState goons who work for the Warmongering Global Robber Barons. The Scottish people would do well as would the other Indy calling, voices to choose to coalesce around you and Salmond and force our own ‘Generals’ hands – Scots have also a lot to atone for in their centuries long role of the AngloSaxon Imperialism, slavery and mass murder. They would make a righteous start by a genuine new and separate Scotland without the old aristos and their current handmaidens who carryon kowtowing to these old forces, while dressing in the skin of Independence. An accent does not make one a independent Scot ( as many a media scumbag seems to affect).
Anyhoo…payday has arrived and promised pony on the way to do with as you see fit sir, keep on with your daily struggle on behalf of humanity.
Dear Embattled Craig,
A lovely little story of a wonderful thing you haggled over in the past to achieve some future progress. Time matures things if one puts in the early effort (see also children).
Meanwhile I have been doing my best to raise some media awareness of the palpably insane prosecution with which you are faced. See https://pastebin.com/h6CsbKaD
Well done in your latest achievement helping Mauritius achieve territorial integrity.
/An Admirer
“Craig Murray is an ex-UK diplomat, who has refused numerous awards from Da Queen coz he’s a Scottish Nationalist and bloody hates Da Queen.”
Grow up.
Irony alert!
The plight of the Chagos Islanders, and the fact that the UK government has continued for so long completely to ignore all legal verdicts, serve as a well-nigh perfect example of the Melian Dialogue’s principles in action.
“…right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must”.
The UK government has vastly more power (of all kinds) than the Chagos Islanders or the government of Mauritius. What is more, the UK government is acting as the servant of the US government, which in turn has vastly more power than it.
Thus the issue of “right” does not come into question. The strong (the UK) does what it likes; and the weak (the islanders) suffer what they must.
The issue of “right” would become important only if the islanders were to have the support of some party at least as powerful as the UK government. The Chinese or Indian government, perhaps. Then we would soon see negotiations, much flying around the world, conferences, meetings, papers, legal contentions… and, perhaps within only a decade or two, some even slightly fair conclusion.
In the meantime the UK government, like Stalin, asks implicitly “How many divisions do they have?”
Glad you enjoyed the hospitality of my Home town Hamburg. Getting a trip on the Gorch Fock, an excellent 3 master that has won many international sailing trophies, is not for everyone. I managed to get a guided tour on it once, but not under sails.
when I read of the decision on the 28th, 01, I knew that this would make you a tad happy, as it did me.
Sadly on trawling the output of the Hamburger Abendblatt, I could not find any references and or letters in their pages, which has surprised me as it once was an outspoken paper on issues of maritime affairs.
As a complete novice in this internationally agreed regime, should this silence over international laws and conventions of the sea, signed and sealed, if continued to be ignored, validate a next step next step? Could there be a call to an international strike of tally men/women around the world in support of international maritime rules? the denial of representation in UK maritime affairs and subsequent refusal of landing rights in EU harbour’s?
paragraph 348/28 clearly states that ‘provisional arrangements of a practical nature’ will have to be agreed to, not to jeopardize, but to reach a final agreement.
28. Mauritius also requests the Tribunal to declare that Maldives has violated its obligation to, pending agreement as provided for in paragraphs 1 of Articles 74 and 83 of UNCLOS, make every effort to enter into provisional arrangements of a practical nature and, during such transitional periods, not to jeopardize or hamper the reaching of the final agreement.
It can only be a few more days before you are a free man again, whether this will mean major or minor changes in the hierarchy of the SNP or not, good luck and best wishes from us two Canaries in Norfolk.
Craig. The MSM call you a ” Blogger” to me and your readership you are The Right Honerable Craig Murray. Please look after yourself, continue being an author, journalist and commentator. Many will put pressure on you to go for high political office in Scotland. I hope you don’t. Truly a man for all season you are.
To counter the abuse you receive, can I just say what in inspiration you are to me. In this cynical self-interested world, where the powerful seem only interested in advancing their material wealth, power and popularity. You are a man with his feet firmly planted in the real world, who knows the transitory nature of our time on earth. To give up your time with a commitment to what is right for the benefit of your fellow man is sadly a rare sight nowadays but that only makes your light shine the brighter. Thank you for all you do.
Good luck with your court case, Craig.
“If WENI wants to keep its position on the UN Security Council it will need to be the sole successor state. But if it is, it will need to inherit all of the UK’s national debt and Scotland none (as Russia did for the Soviet Union). “
I do not understand your above. If Scotland wishes to leave the UK, it can but it would have to take it’s share of the UK’s debt. I do not see why that is linked to the UK’s position on the UN Security Council ?
UN security council have 5 permanet member states: UK, USA, China, France and Russia.
Before 1991 Russia didn’t exist as a sovereign state, but was a part of the USSR.
The same is with Scotland today – you are part of the UK.
If your state divides into several parts, someone should be the successor state, to continue international treaties on money and weapon. That’s why this sucessor status is important for the UN Security council.
Other state member are not permanent, they take membership for 2 years only.
Tatyana – thanks for that – OK – then we know. If the UK splits up, then Shetland will be a permanent member of the UN security council.
James, I’m not sure it works like that, because there was no precedent yet to have 2 successor states in the UN SC.
After USSR dissolved only Russia alone among 15 republics became a successor state *in fact, the obligations are not even formally transpassed with necessary documantation, but still we fulfill these obligations*.
I think if the UK breaks into several states, then only 1 will become a successor of the essential treaties.
I hope Mr. Murray explains better.
Tatyana – let me rephrase that – Shetland will be *the one and only* permanent member on the UN SC from the former United Kingdom.
They’d make a better job of it than England.
By the way – anyone else read the news that Joanna Cherry had been sacked?
Ah, I see 🙂
Well, you understand what I mean? No way England leave this place in the UNSC
Thank the Lord you have a strong, principled and far-sighted leader in Mr Putin, who – a Grand master at chess being one of his many accomplishments – has outwitted the West and its evil designs, as well as bringing Russia back from the brink of the disaster to which she seemed destined under that drunken stooge Yeltsin.
@Tatyana-and there are plenty of vociferous voices amongst the most reactionary states such as US, the UK, Poland, Hungary (amongst others) seeking the removal of Russia from the Security Council!
That is what part of this persistent anti-Russian trope aims to achieve. Then China.
Scotland can be the successor state then and take on £3,000,000,000,000 of debt !
(I still don’t see the connection to the UN Security Council and government debt).
Geoffrey it is quite simple. If you are the sole successor state you assume all of the debt. That is what being the sole successor means.
If you are not the sole successor state you split the debt with other successor states. But you cannot claim that WENI, rather than Scotland, gets the permanent seat on the UN Security Council, as you are both the legal successors.
Is that plain?
Your statement is plain as a pike, but is it correct ?
If so no wonder Scotland wants independence, in fact England, Northern Ireland ,Wales and the Scilly Islands would too, in fact I doubt there would be any region of any heavily indebted country that would not want independence.
Except regions have no entitlement to Independence. Peoples do. Scots are a people. As are the Welsh. I expect Ireland to unite within my lifetime.
The UK’s National so-called “Debt” currently stands at £2.1tn.
But, via QE operations, £875bn worth of Gilts are now owned by the BoE, which means that around 42% of Gov “debt” is owed by the Govt… to the Govt. That’s not a debt in any true sense of the word – you can’t write an IOU to yourself!
There’s nothing to stop the Chancellor instructing the BoE to snap up all of it on the secondary bond markets, at which point there will be no outstanding “debt” at the Treasury at all, although there would be a lot of reserves sloshing around at the BoE (equally a govt liability), plus a swollen equities and property market as a result.
Alternatively it could all be taxed away into oblivion, but that would be ruinous to the economy, and destroy all currency in existence.
To worry about the so-called “National Debt” in a nation with its own sovereign, fiat, non-convertible currency, when the government liability is entirely denominated in that currency, is pointless. It’s just the accumulated savings of the private sector that haven’t yet been taxed away, and saving them with the government, in the form of Gilts, NS&I, Premium Bonds etc, is simply the safest place to put them.
If the rUK inherits the “National Debt” as a successor state, it just means that its the safekeeper of the successor state’s private sector sterling savings.
If post-Indy Scotland (wisely) chooses to issue its own currency, then it will have to offer a similar arrangement with its non-govt sector savers, especially if it runs a trade deficit.
Mr Shigemitsu, thank you for, as usual, injecting some much needed commonsense into the discussion We owe a hefty smidgen of gratitude to stubborn old Gordon Brown for keeping Britain out of the Eurozone and in a position to pay off its sterling debts in full anytime it chooses.
Yup – Mr Shigemitsu I appreciate your comments.
To be the successor state, to keep the name and all agreements under that name intact, you also have to be in possession of all the assets and liabilities.
The debt isn’t really ‘a debt’ in the normal sense – it is government debt – and despite the massive headline figures, most of that debt is already ‘owned’ by the government (private savings, for instance, count as government debt, because only the government can issue currency, so they must guarantee any payment for savings, and so it counts as a liability and gets put on the debt ledger. It isn’t like a household budget,,,) – but that is besides the point! If a country was to divide everything up – they’d divide up the assets too, not just the liabilities. But that’s all internal.
So which divided country inherits the trade agreements with other countries? Well, neither, if neither is a successor state – all those contracts are null and void & would need to be renegotiated for each seperate, new, state. If there is no UK, then there are no longer any agreements with it, anywhere.
Having a permanent seat on the UN Security Council is a position of massive power and influence – and the UK would be mad to give it up for, well, just about anything.
That then puts Scotland’s negotiation for full independence in a very strong position – if WENI wants to continue being the ‘UK’ along with all its agreements and contracts, and that comfy permanent seat, then it also has to keep all its liabilities and assets (including the ‘debt’). As long as Scotland doesn’t want the seat in the UNSC itself, and uses the desirability of that position wisely.
It’s the UK UNSC permanent seat (or rather, it’s desirability to the UK, and it’s elite) that means Scotland has no need to worry about getting a raw deal – if England tries to hand over a portion of the debt (or assets if that was in any way likely), Scotland can claim (rightly, under international law) they are no longer the successor state, and WENI forfeit that seat.
Debt repayment is not determinative for UNSC. It’s just the consequence of being the successor state.
There are only 5 permanent seats today. Security Council was originally supposed to be composed of 4 ‘great’ countries, each country was the biggest influencer over the entire region. France joined later.
The ‘veto right’ for permanent participants was designed to prevent decisions potentially leading to world war.
The system was adopted after WW2 with the purpose to keep peace in the world and to make those influencer countries to listen to each other.
Russia taking on the USSR’s debt was nothing to do with it become sole successor, it was done in exchange for the other states forgoing any claims on Soviet foreign assets. When Czechoslovakia broke up neither the Czech Republic (as it was then) or Slovakia wanted to be sole successor so each submitted a letter to the UN promising to abide by all the treaties and obligations Czechoslovakia had entered into and this was accepted. The permanent members of the security council are the victor nations of WW2, possibly three quarters of a century on that needs a rethink and discussion over who succeeds the UK may prove to be a catalyst for reform.
A disproportionate number of Scots also grew very rich exploiting British colonies.
Ex-USSR republics were content they are not paying USSR debt, including Ukraine.
Also ex-USSR republics didn’t claim their part of USSR abroad possession, but Ukraine.
Georgia as well
Like Geoffrey, I too am slightly puzzled by the concept of ‘successor state’. In the hope (perhaps unwise) of clarifying things I had a look at Wikipedia, which makes a distinction between ‘continuator’ state and successor state, using the example of Pakistan (continuator) and Bangla Desh (successor). Pakistan was already in existence and continued to exist as it had before, while Bangla Desh was an entirely new state set up on part of what had been Pakistani territory. Are those usages wrong?
Aha! Thank you, Coldish, for your investigations.
Would it be the case then that, post-Indy, the rUK would be the”continuator” state, and Scotland the “successor” state?
If so, it would be useful for us all to be aware of these terms, in order to avoid confusion and inaccuracy in discussions on this matter.
Perhaps Craig could advise?
Its in the paragraph.
SSS
SOLE SUCCESSOR STATE
It is good news that the illegality of the British occupation of the Chagos Islands has been confirmed by the UN General Assembly and the International Court of Justice, in spite of that taking many years of effort by those campaigning for justice.
Your critics and their abuse is, of course, infuriating and must be distressing. I am not sure why you do not devote a section to passing on the communication details of the posters so the rest of us can have the opportunity to respond to them, a job that could easily be dealt with by a bit of ingenuity and a bot. Of course flame wars are pointless, but with lock-down many of us would find the prospect entertaining, if nothing else.
Having no legal qualifications I cannot comment about the role of successor states, I am sure that this is a matter that could keep the legal trade occupied for many years. Is that a good thing?
Hoping that the contempt case against you deservedly disintegrates, that you get your costs back and the the perpetrators of this malicious prosecution are brought to book.
Apologies if this question has already been asked, but what are the implications of “WENI” or joint successor in terms of the redrawing of the maritime boundary between Scotland and England on the East coast that was agreed between Blair and Dewar?
Superb! Craig.
The first time I saw the disgraceful treatment of Chagosian islanders by the English state , was via John Pilger.
Like John You are a beacon of light.
Keep on keeping on, never mind these keyboard gonks.
Look forwards to reading your new book on the Chagossian islanders and more.
Aye! More than one way to skin a cat.
Onwards and upwards
??
Indeed Mr Pilger has made heroic efforts in this regard.
Diego Garcia, rendition and torture, MH 317. Whoever it is that has rights to the ocean surrounding the islands may be of some significance
MH317? Time to get my tin foil hat on …
Of course I meant to say MH 370…..
Just because the local online newspaper at the time reported that a plane matching the description of the missing plane came down somewhere in the region of Diego Garcia
Too long ago for me to have known how to take a screen shot…..
Rumours had it that patent holders of a new military technology were on the plane, all except Rothschild who was the only one of them not on the plane
The pilot’s flight simulator in his home had erased recent efforts and practice at landing on a small island
But this is old news and evidence has turned up in other parts of the world since then, consistent with ocean currents from somewhere…..
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/07/mh370-malaysia-airlines/590653/
Very interesting indeed.
Brilliant stuff, Mr Murray. I have never forgotten how, as an 11-year-old, twirling my globe so proudly to see all the pink bits, I suddenly had an epiphany or a Damascene moment when it dawned on me that all these pink bits had people on them, and that these people were not British. There’s no going back once you see the light. The Chagos Islanders were dealt with atrociously and deserve their home back, but, even worse, the Aboriginal peoples of Australia and Tasmania were treated like sub-humans. So much evil was done in our name and in the name of imperialist colonialism. You are right, we should be doing something constructive about our imperialist past. I really worry about this century because the acquisition of staple resources like water and food may well set off another round of big bullies grabbing from weaker states. I tremble for Scotland in those circumstances.
If ONLY “predicated logic” and the “rule of agreed laws” still held universal sway in the identification of wrongs and rights in our current world?
We live in interesting times where those in power, must, to retain power – use the rules-of-might.
It will become more and more obvious that adherence to “established laws” will be replace by decrees – in today’s parlance “Executive Orders”.
Revolutions are not kind to moderates and the universal use of Predicated Logic to convince people of what is right and what is wrong.
Noble thoughts Craig for sure, however those with the power will do as they please. Who today will dare tell or “force” a nuclear power to vacate an island or stand down???????
Craig – you are in the business of “ruffling feathers” and “challenging authority”, so the fact that you get some push-back with the threat of jail, financial ruin and hate – just means that you are having the desired impact! If you do too good of job with your challenges, they will have to silence you. – you do know this?
I’m not familiar with the term “predicated logic”. (It doesn’t occur in Craig’s article, so cannot be quoted from there.) There is such a thing as “predicate logic”, but I don’t see its relevance here. Please explain.
I think we can all agree that Craig is a “logical thinker”. He usually “predicates his logical thoughts following a formula similar to this formulaic example; “there exists x such that x is an established Law and x is a Law Agreed to, Cited and Written Here”, where “there exists” is a quantifier, while x is a variable.
Look up First-Order Logic or the History of Logic. Logic has established forms and rules and Craig is well versed in how to communicate a very logical argument.
Educated people rely on logic to communicate with other logical thinkers – to discuss, document and provide a proof of a perceived truth.
Unfortunately, as almost everyone is aware – not everyone is a rigorous, factual and “logic thinker”.
Are you talking for Craig here James? is that your predelicted logic?
Some think through the details of building anything, and in minute details. Thats before they talk or draw about it.
Seconded. I like the analysis of Chomsky and a few others of the role of the ancient Prophets. They could dare to speak truth to power – literally in the minds of their followers. No lone voice will stand against the corruption of establishment power, and the moment the Eye of Sauron (maybe there are 5 so far) turns towards the crusader and the state legislators start cranking out charges, there is only one foundation that is not built on quicksand – the vocal support of many followers, who also refuse to just shut up and go away! There must be disruption of the status quo manufactured from the fear of the populace. Nobody wants a martyr, least of all the PTB.
I complement others who think and make good logical arguments (I guess I can understand them better)…………….however others (including my wife) have told me – on occasion – to just “STOP” with my horribly logical arguments…… along with something about being horribly efficient – come to think of it?
Human emotions can and do supersede hard logic in large parts of life? – just look at the stock markets?????????
James Cook, I don’t think you even understand the terms you’re using. What is this “predicated logic”? How on Earth is it relevant to the Chagosians?
Actually don’t answer – I’ve figured it out. Here’s a statement in actual predicate logic:
∀? (H(?) & w(?,Pl)) → C(?) & S(?)
where H = ‘is human’, w = ‘writes’, Pl = ‘”predicated logic”‘, C = ‘is confused’, and S = ‘is a pseud’.
Go and stand in Pseuds’ Corner with a hat marked ‘D’ (I won’t tell you what ‘D’ stands for).
James Cook. Thats a chilling call about Craig having to be silenced. He is not in the business of ruffling feathers or challenging authority. Those that lack any value in the beauty of life, blind seeing with their own eyes and hearing with their own ears simple truths, are for me the walking dead. Their motto, might is right. Craig is is in the business of living this life with joy and sleeping well with a clear conscious.
Stay strong Craig! I personally never much got offended by bullies because I just discounted their statements as coming from a too unreasonable source, for me to get stressed out.
Now if they are saying the right things but the wrong way, that’s more difficult of course!
Also every time I am on this site it grates on me – Bitcoin and ETC are not good for donations! there is a $5-10 fee per transaction!! .. I’m just gonna shill the only coin that works like satoshi’s vision – because I believe you’ll get more traction with donations this way:
nano.. try it https://nano-faucet.org and follow instructions. it’ll send you $0.01 to your wallet instantly, with 0 fee, and not cost 700kWh of energy like BTC!
it makes a $1 tip feasible, and using Kraken.com you could settle your open interest in nano back into sterljng directly)
There are very few whose pages warrant being pinned to my browser. Sadly. I do try to keep the poisonous fumes of establishment frothing as far away as possible – it is better for my health and well-being. Taking action against evil provides ample fulfilment and sense of worth, even as it brings danger in equal measure. Your well-tempered voice is essential to us all, especially to the many who have yet to encounter it. Keep the Faith. We will strive to keep time with you.
Yep, sack a prominent and respected Advocate from the Westminster, Justice brief and replace her with a graduate of the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Dance. You couldn’t make this shite up.
“…sack a prominent and respected Advocate from the Westminster, Justice brief and replace her with a graduate of the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Dance.”
Not sure she’s even a graduate. Her Wiki entry talks about “attending”. Doesn’t say anything about “graduating”.