- This topic has 577 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 9 months ago by ET.
July 13, 2021 at 11:21 #73955Clark
Various commenters whom I describe as conspiracy theorists have consistently and repeatedly insisted that the global pandemic is either highly exaggerated or a complete hoax, globally orchestrated for the purposes of removing civil liberties, instilling fear, deliberately crashing the economy, instigating mass vaccination, and conditioning subservience to authority through the wearing of masks. I hope this summarises your positions fairly.
The English government’s decision to end all social restrictions next week seems to diverge from the behaviour of most other governments; much of Europe, for instance, is in the process of locking down again as infection rates soar. My explanation is that Johnson’s government is so arrogant as to be delusional, and even more scientifically illiterate than the ruling classes globally tend to be.
But, denialists and conspiracy theorists, I’d be interested to know what your explanations are. Are Johnson’s Tories actually heroes defying the global conspiracy, despite their wanton corruption that they no longer even bother to hide? What has brought about their change of heart? Has the global plot been abandoned due to your diligent efforts, and if so, why only by Westminster?
The test of theory is its power to explain and predict. If the pandemic is indeed a hoax, the English government’s decision will presumably reveal it. Will their rebellion go unpunished by the global conspiracy? Or, if it is a new part of the plot, how does it fit and what should we expect next? Why were the curtailments of civil liberties not permanent?
I did my own research and now I’m just asking questions, so I hope you approve 🙂July 13, 2021 at 14:46 #73957ET
They are saying what people want to hear for popularity despite the previous u-turns. They must have calculated that it’s advantageous even if they have to do another u-turn which is more than likely to be required. Cynicism at it’s worst. Despite all the numerous mistakes more than one of my own family still have a “soft spot” for Boris. It defies reason. I guess we get the leaders we deserve.July 13, 2021 at 15:44 #73958SA
“They are saying what people want to hear for popularity despite the previous u-turns.”
They are also doing what they always believed in: Herd immunity, but now boosted by the vaccine. Also Boris has not suffered any loss of popularity by saying ‘let the bodies pile high…’ and this seems to have given him the go ahead to do just that.July 13, 2021 at 17:27 #73960michael norton
It always was Herd Immunity and let the devil take the hindmost.
Now as SA says many have been vaccinated – twice and yet thrice by October.
There has to come a time when you have to choose freedom, perhaps Freedom is next week?July 13, 2021 at 17:51 #73962SA
MN Although many have been vaccinated we know that vaccine does not stop fully vaccinated people getting infected or dying, but there will still be an increase in hospital admission, an increase of those off sick and self-isolating and also a rise in deaths. Moreover there will be more cases of long covid. The West lost its chance to stamp out the virus when the Chinese did it, now it is too late. The decision is a sort of admission of defeat without actually saying so but pretending to be the victors.July 13, 2021 at 19:41 #73964michael norton
If you look at how life pans out in poor countries, they just have to get on with it.
That is how life works for all life, not just human life.
except in rich countries in very, very modern times.
I would bet that most people who have died in Europe of or more likely with covid, were at best a few years from death.
You can’t keep everyone in the World alive until they get to one hundred.
My brother died at 52, I am 70 and still here, you just have to accept that at some point everyone is going to die.
Maybe in Europe we prolong the life of people with multiple things wrong with them for too long?July 13, 2021 at 20:49 #73966SA
It really is not a valid argument at all. The life expectancy has increased over the years. Evolutionarily it is not very useful to maintain anyone beyond the reproductive age where they can maintain the species. But we have gone beyond just survival of the fittest. Covid does also kill younger people and also younger people get very ill with it and there is also long covid. There is also the possibility that a virus that keeps mutating can become more deadly and resistant to vaccines. Simplifying the problem to mean only prolonged survival for older people is a serious oversimplification.July 13, 2021 at 23:19 #73969Clark
Thanks for your replies, though really I was hoping to hear from some proper conspiracy theorists.
The main freedom arriving on “freedom day” is freedom for the virus – freedom to mutate and adapt. I for one don’t want to catch this infection. It can do ten years worth of damage to your heart, ten years to your immune system. A million people in the UK have reported long term effects. The deaths are bad enough; one paper estimated five years lost on average, so with about 130,000 dead that’s 650 thousand years of human experience wiped out – our elders, our most experienced minds. But the attrition is worse; even just the attrition we’ve already seen, we don’t even know what it might do to people over the next ten years or whatever.
There’s more to covid than just deaths.July 13, 2021 at 23:31 #73970Clark
First they let it kill the old people, now they’re letting it run through the kids. I’m furious. The longer it goes on the more damage it does. I keep seeing mention of “an exit wave”. That’s an assumption.July 14, 2021 at 09:38 #73974SA
The conspiracists will have an easy and convincing answer for you. It is through the action of brave warriors like Piers Corbyn, Yeadon and others that the governement was forced to capitulate on its plan to curb our freedoms and admit that the virus is a hoax and that lockdown does nothing but stifle the economy. Also having achieved the aim of mass vaccination and pumping money into big pharma, they have achieved part of thier aim, the rest will come slowly.
But seriously though, this is a very alarming situation:
‘If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity, you would do exactly what they’re doing’
And here is another article from the Independent through MSN to bypass the paywall:
“Boris Johnson’s plan? Bring on the stupidity and hope for the best.”
There is no one in their right mind who would support this government’s action, based on ideology alone and forced by the extreme right of the Tories many of whom verge on being covid deniers because it interferes with their making money, except when they are getting huge payments for supplying useless PPI. In fact I have always seen a much stronger link between the CTs and the extreme right than with the left.
AS to J, having started another thread, he has disappeared. It would be kinda nice if we can here some of his thoughts, and also those of others.July 14, 2021 at 11:19 #73976michael norton
Well yesterday the country posting the most infections of covid was Spain. 43,960 new infections in a single day, more even than India, U.K. was close behind.
Apparently we are into our third wave, Spain seems to have had more waves?
But there is good news, very few deaths.
I would guess, that now, most of Europe will go for herd immunity, they do not want to be left behind by the gravy train.July 14, 2021 at 14:32 #73979glenn_nl
Clark: I’ve been wondering for some time how the denialists / conspiracy nuts would explain away the keenness of governments – particularly ours – to lift restrictions, when apparently they were ALL in on it to tie us down with restrictions forever.
What happened to the Master Plan, when it was all going so well?
Trouble is, denialists don’t tend to be bound by the truth. So they can always make something up to explain whatever has just happened or has come to light – even if they’re not so great at predicting what _will_ happen. And when they predict something and it _doesn’t_ happen, they conveniently ignore that bit and will never speak of it again.
So denialists can simply claim that this was all a test run, for the Real Thing which will happen at some definite point in the future. Or that there were enough brave people out there who rumbled the plot, so it had to be called off. Or that everyone was waking up to the fact that nobody had really died from Covid! No – it’s all fake, and everyone was finally listening to them and the truth was becoming too obvious.
SA has a couple of good answers above too. But you’ll never, ever hear a conspiracy nut/ denialist admit that, given the evidence we can all see now, they were wrong. Never. Never ever. In fairness – if they did, they wouldn’t be denialists, would they?July 15, 2021 at 10:53 #74008Clark
Michael norton, I expect that when the dust eventually settles, it will be realised that the gravy train was actually the one going in the opposite direction. China’s doing alright.July 15, 2021 at 11:08 #74009Clark
Has anyone told the virus that this one is the “exit” wave, and will it cooperate?July 15, 2021 at 11:57 #74010Clark
Regarding ET and SA’s earlier remarks about Johnson and his government, I’m not sure they’re as popular as they maybe seem. Remember how completely wrong the opinion polls were in the 2017 UK general election. Labour has lost a lot of supporters because of Starmer which makes Johnson look more popular by percentages, but very few of those will have transferred their support to Johnson.
Johnson and his government’s apparent popularity may be mostly mere illusion projected by the corporate “news” media – though that wouldn’t stop Johnson believing it, no more than it did Theresa May in 2017.July 15, 2021 at 12:19 #74011SA
Johnson may not be popular but Starmer doesn’t seem to be offering a viable alternative and doesn’t look like a PM in waiting, more like a hapless village lad caught in the limelight. Yes of course about opinion polls but trends and long term projections and so on all indicate that there is no opposition to the Tories. Look at this:
As the Amersham by election showed, the Tory popularity can be fragile if there is an alternative.July 15, 2021 at 12:57 #74014Clark
SA, that’s voting intention rather than Johnson’s popularity. The way the Westminster system forces us to choose our votes, I’d say that voting intention consists of a large chunk of “least unpopular” supplementing a foundation of habitual / tribal single-party voters.July 15, 2021 at 15:29 #74018SA
OK Clark, the net result is the Tories get elected with vast majorities.July 15, 2021 at 23:41 #74022michael norton
I do not know why you suggest China is doing alright.
China claim to have had less than one hundred thousand cases of covid but that was the early type, Delta, the Indian covid will be coming their way shortly, Sinovac is next to useless.July 16, 2021 at 11:42 #74027Clark
SA, politics is fucked and has been for decades; all that’s left is civil disobedience, refusal to cooperate, and taking responsibility for ourselves, building community with self-motivated consensus-building and decision-making. Genuine government by consent.
The covid crisis is merely illuminating our collective miasma. In retrospect it’s obvious that politics is dysfunctional and entirely unfit for purpose, from four decades of denial and inaction about global heating. Eventually it has taken the icecaps melting away to even begin the process of waking up.July 16, 2021 at 12:08 #74028michael norton
Much like the West has been doing,
China is now heating and eating and poisoning and infecting the the World.
More coal fired plants than the rest of the World combined at one time they were building more than two new coal fired plants a week. They are buying up vast tracks of the World to grow food for China.
They are buying up vast tracks of the World to strip timber.
They are buying up vast tracks of the World to strip minerals.
Almost everything they do is not sustainable, maybe apart from breeding pandas.July 16, 2021 at 12:11 #74029Clark
Michael norton, I expect China to cope with Delta because they have the right social restriction policies; take a look at their graph:
No problem for over a year and three months. Everything is open, and ordinary people are free to go about their business. BUT, as soon as even a handful of tests come back positive, they instantly lock down that city, thoroughly test everyone, get everyone infected into quarantine (no swanky “self isolation” in China) – and this enables them to lift those restrictions in under two weeks.
Australia saw how well China’s policy works and adopted it around last August; take a look at their graph:
Barely a problem since September; 44 was highest positive tests on a single day right through until two weeks ago. It’s picked up a bit lately, but I looked into that – essentially the entire increase is in the Australian Territory of New South Wales:
The territories have separate governments, and New South Wales recently changed policy to making social restrictions voluntary.
China is treating vaccines as a secondary line of defence. Immediate, strong lockdowns with travel restrictions and state support for those infected are their primary weapons against the virus – and consequentially, the lockdowns can be local and very short term; people are free and everything is open the vast majority of the time. By stamping out covid as soon as it rears its head, its effect upon economy and population are minimised.
Delta might change that, and I’m keeping an eye on the figures, but I suspect it will work very well. Of course, if a strongly vaccine-resistant strain arises, it’s the only policy that will work.July 16, 2021 at 12:37 #74030Clark
Yep, China are following the “developed” world’s example.
To be fair, China is doing it slightly better. For instance, they have by far the fastest deployment of wind and solar electricity generation. The expansion of coal is more for smelting than for electricity, and that goes against central government policy – big place, China, and local authority often prevails over the national government.
And it must be remembered that much of China’s emissions are from industry for export – China is the manufacturing hub of the world, so although the emissions occur in China, the actual consumption and the money to pay for it are Western.
But no, it’s not remotely sustainable. China is an offender along with all the other major governments – just somewhat less so, particularly on a per-capita reckoning.July 16, 2021 at 12:40 #74031Clark
Anyway, I’m not interested in a “good countries versus bad countries” perspective. Whatever China’s environmental and human rights shortcomings, their handling of covid is an example the rest of the world would do well to follow.July 16, 2021 at 13:28 #74032michael norton
Apparently in the U.K. now one in every 95 people currently have the virus, with over half a million NHS pinged. Food producers are running out of workers.
I am not sure what Freedom Day is really going to do for us, it seems like less freedom is coming our way. Matt Handcock got out in the nick of time.July 16, 2021 at 13:47 #74033Clark
The “news” media have been utterly irresponsible – they’ve been pushing this “freedom” nonsense for months – what would it mean to be “free” of fire precautions, or traffic and firearm laws, or even just sewage and waste disposal regulation?
The first UK lockdown nearly worked. Maybe it did work; we’ll never know now. It started too late but eventually infection prevalence was pushed very low; we could have transitioned to a suppression with trace-and-test policy like China’s. But the government dished out the 37 billion quid for trace-and-test to a friend of theirs – corruption.
The other plank that has to be in place is support for absolutely everyone. It’s pointless telling people to self-isolate if they can only get money by continuing to work. A Universal Basic Income would have empowered the population – if an employer had refused to ventilate and institute safe practices, workers would have had the economic freedom to tell him where to stuff his damn job. Working conditions would have improved within days.
There are simple, practical solutions to covid. Only ideology stands in their way.July 16, 2021 at 14:08 #74035ET
Deaths are beginning to rise again which was inevitable given the rise in mechanically ventilated that preceded. Is there any good news? Well, hospital admissions and deaths are about one tenth of what they were with similar levels of positive tests in Jan and ventilated patients are about one sixth of the number back in Jan. Vaccination appears to have helped. There is also the issue of long covid which is just past beginning to be acknowledged.
“Freedom Day” is such a cynical politicisation of the situation. It reminds me of “Freedom Fries” back in the Iraq war. I see in the Guardian “England’s Covid unlocking is threat to world, say 1,200 scientists.” Who knows where it’s all headed but for sure covid isn’t done with yet.July 16, 2021 at 17:25 #74039michael norton
Prof Chris Whitty said the number of people in hospital with Covid was doubling roughly every three weeks.
The United Kingdom is “not out of the woods yet”
Well Prof Whitty, that is almost certainly an understatement.July 17, 2021 at 17:52 #74055glenn_nl
Still not a peep from the conspiracy theorists then? I’m shocked, shocked I tell you!
This asinine talking point of “If not now, then when…?” really is only fit for the ears of the terminally stupid, and to be uttered by cynical manipulators who lack any sensible argument.
The “when” is surely not at a time of over 50K new cases/day, and doubling each week. I heard some government apologist on radio-4 this morning (The Week in Westminster or something) explaining that now was the time, because the date had been established for quite a while now.
Got that, virus? The date has long been marked on the calendar, so don’t say you haven’t been given sufficient notice.
Another cracker was from Health Secretary Javid – there will be “no going back”, and lifting restrictions is his “absolute priority”.
No going back. Doesn’t matter how many deaths there are, how ill people become, even if every last person in the country dies – there will be No Going Back. Take that, virus – the man is serious!
It’s also curious that lifting restrictions is the “absolute priority” for a health secretary. Not defeating the virus, not preventing deaths and long illnesses, not over-running the hospitals.
Still no word from the denialists, who stated categorically that the government (all governments, worldwide, actually) wanted to restrict us forever? Thought they’d be delighted to see all these far-right governments are on their side. Thought they’d be crowing about it. Most strange.July 17, 2021 at 20:59 #74063michael norton
Health Secretary Javid, now has covid, Boris is starting to be unsure about “Freedom Day” as we are almost up to 55k a day.
How has it accelerated so fast, two thirds of adults are double-jabbed
Do the jabs work properly or only partially?
Freedom Day was aimed for the hot sunny weather, well it could barely be hotter or sunnier.
Something is going very wrong but what is going wrong?July 18, 2021 at 02:42 #74070Andy Bacon
How the Covid “Pandemic” Was Orchestrated
Everything you should know about Covid
By Paul Craig Roberts
July 16, 2021
— SNIP —
[ Mod: This contribution reproduced a 2,148 word article from the economist and fringe commentator Paul Craig Roberts, with not a word of original commentary. Please do not paste lengthy articles that are available elsewhere. This particular article can be found on numerous covid-sceptic websites, and is available with updates at: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/07/15/how-the-covid-pandemic-was-orchestrated/ ]July 18, 2021 at 03:08 #74072Andy Bacon
The links in my above post are missing, all here:
This one not in article
July 18, 2021 at 04:29 #74074SA
Catalogue of unsubstantiated assertions I am afraid, utter nonsense. Political analysts are not scientists.July 18, 2021 at 06:26 #74076Andy
Go to the article and read the links
Show me the science in the posts above
Most of you are Marxists and we know what your agenda is and it is not freedom. See history.
You are just “useful idiots” as Stalin said. If you are successful you will meet a similar fate.July 18, 2021 at 07:22 #74083SA
If you think we are Marxists then that defines you as far right. Most covid deniers come from that quarter anyway.July 18, 2021 at 07:25 #74084SA
The usual conspiracy theorist ploy to invite us to read lengthy articles by known conspiracists and watch hours of videos. Why has that ceased to convince?July 18, 2021 at 07:32 #74085SA
Mods Andy seems to flout all the rules. He is impugning our motives. He posts an article which has no scientific references just lots of allegations then invites us to read it or post scientific comments.
Tell you what Andy. I accept your challenge if you write and tell me why PCR (That is Paul Craig Roberts, not Polymerase Chain Reaction, which like all these deniers apparently gives you 95% false positives) is right in your words and hopefully by linking to some real science. I promise I will respond to your challenge then.July 18, 2021 at 08:10 #74088SA
Nice one, the article by PCR linked to above gives Tanzania as an example of low number of documented cases and deaths with Covid-19. That was because the covid-skeptic president, who has since died allegedly of Covid-19 has ordered that tests should not be carried out or any covid-19 related statistics released.July 18, 2021 at 08:19 #74089Andy
I have an open mind but posted it because I found Clark and others provocative. I am here because I believe we are living under tyranny. What we need is honest and open debate. I don,t think Clark and others believe in open debate.
FWIW the Westminster government should have no control over Scotland at all but you could end up with something worse.
Please stop calling Brexiters racist little Englanders. I am on the side of an independent Scotland but I would also like an independent England, an independent, Bedford and an independent me. Clark believes my income should be stolen to pay for UBI but I and others will just go elsewhere as I have already done and then who will pay?July 18, 2021 at 08:33 #74090Andy
And BTW I have posted enough information for anyone to find me, let’s see you all do the same.
[ Mod: Commenters are not required to reveal their personal details on this website. ]