The NHS and not Boris Johnson is responsible for the successful vaccine rollout


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  • #84195 Reply
    Kevin

    [ Mod: J (aka ‘Kevin’), you have posted another reply that says nothing about the thread topic. You were advised that complaints about moderation should be posted in the Blog Support Forum, where they can be addressed by moderators without distracting from the topical focus of a discussion thread. Yet, more than two days after the guidance was published, you still haven’t taken the advice to repost your complaint in the appropriate forum. And now you’ve compounded the issue by posting yet another complaint about moderation without mentioning the thread topic.

    Something similar happened in the comments section a few weeks ago, leading to your temporary suspension: after you highlighted an alleged covid mandate scandal in Australia in a thread about Craig’s incarceration and were duly advised to post the same material in the discussion forum, you instead reposted it (twice) in the same thread, whereupon it was suspended again, and you went on to complain about censorship by moderators. You seem unwilling to follow the Relevance rule or to comply with moderation requests. (By contrast, plenty of other people receive the same reminder and comply with the instructions without raising a protest about it.) You were advised to stop posting off-topic content and warned about wasting our time, and yet here you are, flagrantly ignoring the rule and wasting our time with more false allegations about moderation, while using a pseudonym to evade detection.

    Our patience is not limitless. In light of your latest behaviour, I’ll recommend a permanent ban to the moderation team. I’ll also repost your complaints in the Blog Support Forum, where they can be properly addressed. ]

    [ Comment suspended ]

    #84196 Reply
    fred

    Are you more certain than they are, Fred? If so, what’s the basis for your certainty?

    I’m certain that it isn’t “extremely unlikely”.

    What makes you so certain that it is “extremely unlikely”?

    What makes you so certain that scientists wouldn’t lie to us?

    “Oof” (Fraudci lies again) – by Memology 101 (13 Jan 2022) – YouTube, 0m 50s

    #84202 Reply
    SA

    Meanwhile NATO and our government are preparing us for war and for gas price hikes because how dare Putin cut his gas when we sanction him and threaten war? Where is the peace movement? In the case of the Iraq war there was a great response but it seems that the spirit is gone out of the anti-war movement and once again a lying UK prime minister gets away with lies by indulging in war on top of what has been committed already. And we are still debating same old debates of 2 years ago.

    #84223 Reply
    Dawg

    What makes you so certain that it is “extremely unlikely”?

    What are you wittering on about, Fred? Why are you casting around that term “extremely unlikely”? Here’s the first occurrence of it in this thread:

    Fred
    January 24, 2022 at 19:54

    No, I don’t know that and neither do you. I don’t discount the possibility but in no way can I be certain.

    So you believe, in light of recent leaked emails, that when the WHO told us that a lab leak was “extremely unlikely” they may have been telling the truth?

    I have a bridge for sale.

    You’re arguing with your own straw man. ET said he didn’t know, but didn’t discount the possibility and remained to be convinced. Clark said the WHO made a statement for political reasons and then rowed back on it, and that Daszak had an ulterior motive. So why introduce this nonsense about “extremely unlikely”? Why the false accusations that the people you’re arguing with here believe it? It’s a blatant attempt to provoke.

    And who introduced the subject of the lab leak theory to this thread in the first place? It was YOU –

    Fred
    January 24, 2022 at 10:46

    We now know the scientists lied to us about the origins of covid in a lab in Wuhan.

    You’re trying to hijack a thread and divert it onto your own choice of topic, so you can post conspiracy theory propaganda that you’ve picked up from other covid sceptic sites. Surely this is an issue for the mods?!

    #84238 Reply
    Clark

    Fred, you wrote, “I think the MPs that history will look favourably on are the ones who kept their heads and voted against their party whip”, and then linked to a video of Jeremy Corbyn, who said a lot of things I thoroughly agree with. But Corbyn didn’t vote against his party’s whip, did he?

    #84239 Reply
    Clark

    And yes, scientists are human, and sometimes lie. But that’s not the same as faking their data. Trusting science is not the same as trusting a scientist, just as trusting a bank is not the same as trusting a banker.

    #84241 Reply
    ET

    “Meanwhile NATO and our government are preparing us for war………….”

    Our brave and dedicated fishermen of Ireland are preparing to peacefully disrupt Russian naval drills of the south west coast of Ireland planned in the next few weeks. Apparently the Ruskies are threatening biodiversity and marine life. Even though they will legally take place in international waters and Russia has given the requisite announcements and followed the relevant international protocols they will take place within Ireland’s exclusive economic zone and are being touted as a strategic and military threat. Some suggesting the exercises are a possible cover for cutting international cables. The last couple of days the Irish media have been full of it, talking up the (non-existent) Russian threat to Ireland.

    Our man Leo Varadkar had this to say (former Taoiseach -prime mminister now Taniste- deputy Prime Minister:

    “We have made it very clear that these exercises are not welcome particularly in the current context, when tensions are rising in relation to Ukraine, and that’s been communicated to them very strongly.”

    Since when has little old Ireland been used to trot out such bollox. Delusions of grandeur in Irish political circles. We’ll be relying on you Brits to come to our aid because we certainly don’t have anything remotely capable of dealing with Russian warships. Much better to invite them in for a pint and a hot one.

    #84243 Reply
    Kevin

    Proved my point more or less.


    [ Mod: You were asked to move your comments, not withhold them. The clear advice was to repost the same content on a more appropriate forum on this same website – and you didn’t do so. That hardly counts as censorship. ]

    #84244 Reply
    SA

    And to hear parliament today praising the liar Johnson for being strong by sending half a dozen troops to Ukraine whilst withdrawing diplomatic staff from Kiev as precaution, from what? I don’t know.

    But of course it seems that Johnson knows more of Putin’s intentions than it seems Putin himself knows. No body in parliament today was much interested in Minsk or in anyone in the Donbas, they seem to be disappeared and all there is there are Russian troops. And whilst the foreign office false flag operation that Moscow is planning to replace the Kiev regime, which has become an international joke that even the Ukrainians laughed at, our parliament appear to be even more gullible than usual.

    Gosh I am enjoying very much being off topic here, but hey, what does it matter, everyone else is.

    #84245 Reply
    fred

    Fred, you wrote, “I think the MPs that history will look favourably on are the ones who kept their heads and voted against their party whip”, and then linked to a video of Jeremy Corbyn, who said a lot of things I thoroughly agree with. But Corbyn didn’t vote against his party’s whip, did he?

    The Labour party supported covid passports, Corbyn voted against.

    #84246 Reply
    fred

    You’re trying to hijack a thread and divert it onto your own choice of topic, so you can post conspiracy theory propaganda that you’ve picked up from other covid sceptic sites. Surely this is an issue for the mods?!

    Well a FOI request did produce emails of the world’s top scientists conspiring so it’s rather more than a theory.

    FOI documents on origins of Covid-19, gain-of-function research and biolabsUSRTK (US Right To Know), 10 Jan 2022

    #84255 Reply
    Dawg

    Precisely, Fred – that is what hijacking the thread means! The title and the OP make no reference to the dispute over the origins of SARS-CoV-2, but you’ve managed to redirect the conversation onto it, swamping the original discussion.

    You should post your interesting (though far from conclusive) information on the “Origins of SARS” thread.

    #84259 Reply
    mods-cm-org

    Fred, kindly post any further commentary about the origins of the virus on the appropriate thread: Origins of SARS cov2

    You’re welcome to repost the details you posted here in order to build your case on that thread.

    #84673 Reply
    fred

    Alternatively I could stay here, enjoy the cut and thrust of lively debate on this thread and hope to be heard above the noise.

    #84741 Reply
    Clark

    Fred, you won’t be “heard above the noise” because you’re making most of it yourself.

    #84749 Reply
    SA

    Meanwhile, our boast of being highly vaccinated and highly boosted is also another demonstration of what Boris Johnson boasted of, being that capitalist greed is good. In Africa less than 25% of the population has had one dose a fertile ground for new variants. Let us see what this greed will do to the virus mutations.

    #84751 Reply
    fred

    Meanwhile, our boast of being highly vaccinated and highly boosted is also another demonstration of what Boris Johnson boasted of, being that capitalist greed is good. In Africa less than 25% of the population has had one dose a fertile ground for new variants. Let us see what this greed will do to the virus mutations.

    New variants are not all bad. It is not in the interests of a virus to kill its host or even make them seriously ill. The purpose of a virus is to keep reproducing, to do that the host must be out and about associating with other people, not laid on a mortuary slab or at home in bed.

    The 1918 flu pandemic did not end because of vaccines, it ended because new strains were more virulent but less harmful to young healthy people. The new strains wiped out the old and brought herd immunity.

    #84762 Reply
    SA

    Fred
    Thanks for the lecture on Darwinian adaptive evolution. Sadly the virus has no ‘purpose’ it just happens to be there. It is true that successful viruses and parasites adapt to their hosts but this is a process of trial and error that spans many generations and involve both viral mutations and host immunological responses. During this process of adaptation, which could take years, many hosts will die but of course not all. This death can even get worse with subsequent mutations but as long as it is not an extremely high death rate, the virus will continue to be propagated. It is too simplistic to rely on the ‘good intentions’ of an RNA molecule without life not to hurt us.

    This virus in terms of lethality is not an existential threat but it can and has caused a lot of disruption in this highly interconnected world. As we have seen with the omicron variant with a high rate of transmissibility but less lethality , enormous disruption nevertheless occurs because many key staff are off sick even with mild symptoms. WE can therefore not just sit back and rely on natural herd immunity to occur in Africa, whilst enjoying high rates of vaccine immunity in developed countries.

    And finally, the Spanish Influenza virus mutated eventually to a less lethal strain but that does not have to apply to SARS Cov-2 which is a coronavirus, unrelated to influenza viruses.

    #84769 Reply
    fred

    And finally, the Spanish Influenza virus mutated eventually to a less lethal strain but that does not have to apply to SARS Cov-2 which is a coronavirus, unrelated to influenza viruses.

    Yes, Covid is more like the common cold than flu. The cold has been with us since time immemorial and mutated countless times but doesn’t seem to have become more deadly.

    #84774 Reply
    SA

    Fred
    Are you also aware that SARS-cov1 was a coronavirus? That was much more lethal. The fact that it is in the same family does not mean that it is harmless. And by the way ‘The cold’ is not caused by one virus; it is a clinical syndrome.

    #84777 Reply
    Clark

    Fred, if you want to manufacture controversy around a non-issue so that you can “enjoy the cut and thrust of lively debate” (above), why not start a “flat Earth” or “birds aren’t real” forum? That way, you could pander all you liked to conspiracy theorists’ inflated egos and bask in the praise they’d predictably heap upon you, but without having to promote lethal disinformation. I hope that the sense of power conferred by causing preventable deaths and illnesses among people you’ve never met isn’t what’s motivating your incessant click-baiting.

    You could go for pre-rigged demolition of the Twin Towers on 9/11, though it does tend to provide a smokescreen for the US torture policy and NATO exploitation of jihadism. But Flat Earth and Birds Aren’t Real, while they do undermine critical thinking and promote public alienation from science and technology, seem unlikely to result in many actual deaths unless there’s a full cultural revolution and mobs start burning textbooks and hanging technicians and scholars from lamp posts.

    #84778 Reply
    ET

    “Yes, Covid is more like the common cold than flu.”

    Is this an article of the faith Fred? Can you point me to the cathecism of this religion you are proselytizing? Shame that that tenet of faith doesn’t explain the excess deaths nor the mortality related to SARS/MERS both of which were also coronaviruses.

    “The cold has been with us since time immemorial”……….”and mutated countless times”

    How do you know this? Could you possibly be referring to the scientific research which has determined this? You know, that same science that was used to inform us of disease burden, to determine the genome of SARS-Cov-2 and produce vaccines etc etc. You cannot use the same science to both argue in support of your religion and then again to attempt to undermine the actual knowledge base.

    “but doesn’t seem to have become more deadly”

    It didn’t have to when introduced into a previously unexposed population as happened when the spanish invaded the south americas.

    You are correct to say that evolutionary pressure on mutations is towards a more transmissible and less virulent virus and that seems to be the direction of travel with SARS-Cov-2. It’s not however guaranteed. Let’s hope it continues in that direction.

    #84780 Reply
    Clark

    ET, I think I should challenge this:

    “…evolutionary pressure on mutations is towards a more transmissible and less virulent virus…”

    Yes, being more transmissible confers an immediate selection advantage, but decreased virulence does not. SARS-CoV-2 has precipitated the deaths of about 0.22% of the UK population so far, and nearly 0.9% of Bulgaria’s, ie. SARS-CoV-2’s death toll has decreased its potential to replicate in humans by less than one hundredth in the worst case.

    Natural selection works retroactively not teleologically, so if we rule out self-protective behaviour such as masks, social restraint and vaccination (as Fred seems to be advising), even if a 100% lethal strain were to arise, it would have to wipe out half the population before its reproductive potential was halved. Eventually it would extinguish itself, but only by extinguishing its human hosts.

    Humans can act teleologically which would appear to be a decisive advantage over a mere virus, but apparently we need “the cut and thrust of lively debate” to decide whether we should do so. The virus suffers no such quaint inhibitions.

    #84786 Reply
    ET

    Clark, when I use the term “virulence” I mean it defined as the relative capacity of an infectious agent to cause disease/damage in a specific host. The greater the virulence the higher the propensity to cause more severe disease/damage to a host and either kill or reduce the host’s capacity to further transmit the infectious agent. I don’t think this is teleological and I’ll stand by my statement for now.

    A highly virulent infectious agent will either decrease the host population by killing it off thus decreasing it’s ability to thrive or debilitate the host population’s efficiency in spreading the infection. Both those are pressures against virulence. A more transmissible agent that enables a host to carry on is more efficient at spreading and even better if said agent could enhance a host’s chance of survival 😀 (if only, I am aware I am fantasising about symbiosis). However, parts of viral genomes are in human DNA so perhaps one time they did just that, enhance human survival.

    Memo to Fred: That is discussion and debate.

    #84787 Reply
    ET

    Although it is off topic :(, sorry SA.


    [ Mod: It’s not off topic – it follows a clear logical link. ]

    #84793 Reply
    Clark

    ET, I did not mean to imply that your statement was teleological. Rather, I was saying that such selection pressure does not help us, meaning us living now, because the virus has to kill a large proportion of us before such selection can hinder the virus.

    Highly virulent viruses seem to have no problem surviving. Smallpox was around for millennia before vaccination eliminated it.

    “…even better if said agent could enhance a host’s chance of survival.”

    Just this evening I heard it suggested that bats may harbour so many viruses because risk of infection helps to keep predators out of their caves.

    #84807 Reply
    fred

    Are you also aware that SARS-cov1 was a coronavirus? That was much more lethal.

    I’m not saying that viruses are not lethal when they first cross from one species to another, the 1918 flu epidemic was caused by avian flu crossing to humans. I said that new strains of a virus developing in the unvaccinated is not a bad thing because the new strains which are milder will dominate, as Omicron has wiped out Delta.

    #84809 Reply
    fred

    Is this an article of the faith Fred? Can you point me to the cathecism of this religion you are proselytizing?

    Both Covid and the cold are a Coronavirus, flu is part of the Orthomyxoviridae family.

    It’s like horses and zebras both being equines so a zebra is more like a horse than an alligator is.

    #84812 Reply
    glenn_nl

    F: ” I said that new strains of a virus developing in the unvaccinated is not a bad thing because the new strains which are milder will dominate, as Omicron has wiped out Delta. “

    Yet Alpha was pushed aside (not wiped out) by the much more virulent Delta. Strange that.

    #84817 Reply
    fred

    Yet Alpha was pushed aside (not wiped out) by the much more virulent Delta. Strange that.

    Yes and Delta pushed aside by the more virulent Omicron. If Delta was more severe than Alpha or not seems to be a matter for debate, opinions are divided.

    #84819 Reply
    glenn_nl

    So milder strains aren’t an inevitable follow-on, as you were pretending.

    I know you’re only trolling, Fred, writing – as always – in completely bad faith, because there’s not an honest bone in your body.

    I don’t think you’ve made a useful contribution yet, or even one in which you remotely believe – stupidity alone cannot provide you cover there. I wonder what makes you such an individual? But don’t bother telling us, because nobody would believe it.

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