What's your point? To go the other way - do you want to define such acts as acts of terrorism? If so, you'd be opening the floodgates. I really doubt that you've thought through this issue.

Most of the mainstream, western media, are obsessed with Muslims. A friend of mine works for a national newspaper, and she told me that stories that would normally be cast into the waste basket get published, if one can find a way to find the "Muslim slant." Suddenly, miraculously, a story becomes interesting, and saleable, once one finds the link to Muslims and Islam.

Larry,

I believe Craig's point is that the White House (and others) do or don't label things in an inconsistent, and probably politically motivated, way.

No, not terrorism - it was his own 'plane, so not "a man with a bomb but no air force".

There's not a whole lot of detail on the BBC report. It may be that the White House believes this incident was not politically motivated, in which case it's not terrorism. It's probably true that if the pilot were Muslim the media would declare it "terrorism".

Scary Larry the half wit twit emerges like the other creature in his native land the Skunk demanding respect. Take the hint Larry and post on your own blog where your lack of intellect and intelligence will be appreciated.

"a man with a bomb but no air force"

What's the source of that quote? I've come across versions of it before, but never the source.

Just a local individual act of non-political revenge.

Discuss.

It's just something I heard in the '80s:
Q: What is a terrorist?
A: A man with a bomb but no air force.

Political or not? He was mighty pissed off with the political system. You can read his "manifesto" here:

www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0218102stack1.html

so a jihadist called me a skunk! awesome!

Awesome. Perhaps more people need to fly into tax offices around the world.

"Perhaps more people need to fly into tax offices around the world."

What a horribly infantile yet cruel statement.

"That is the CLG site; I subscribe to the newsfeed, as can you at the bottom of that page. I recommend the feed as an excellent source of leads to alternative stories for the intellectually curious."

Of course you recommend it, Craig. It's a source for 911 nuttery and other nuttery. Are you also "intellectually curious" about the so-called "oddities" concerning the Virginia Tech shooter?

"Pilot deliberately crashed into Texas building, official says 28 Feb 2010"

Look! Something's wrong with the headline!

We're being fed lies and eating them up like sheeple!

Actually, I have no problem calling this guy a terrorist, especially if it WAS politically motivated. There is a relatively small but nonetheless dangerous group of people who'll act out their sick fantasies such as this and claim some kind of lunatic justification for it. The guy says he's not a crackpot. I beg to differ.

"Awesome. Perhaps more people need to fly into tax offices around the world."

This is so stupid!

Craig, reading through the killer's note, it's exactly the sort of paranoid thinking that the conspiracy culture creates. Impressionable people read the crap that people like you push and this is the consequence.

His note smacks of the Alex Jones crowd in Austin. Of course, you have no problem giving people like Alex Jones the legitimacy of having a former ambassador going on their program.

Does Nick Griffin have a radio show? When he gets one, will you jump at the chance to appear on his show?

I note various themes in Stack's suicide note: corrupt politicians, 9/11, Enron, Big Pharma, Banker's Bailouts, the plundering of pension funds, self-serving lawyers, destruction of the industrial base, lack of political representation. This man knew exactly what he was angry about, and millions of others are angry about exactly the same things.

Assuming the note is genuine, his greivances were coherent - but the idea that killing some poor tax clerks is the answer was deranged. Or killing anyone for that matter. But I stick by my observation that he is not being called a terrorist because he is not a muslim.

"his greivances were coherent"

Right. At some point perhaps you could tell us what grievances you find incoherent.

He's a right-wing fantasist tax protester nut. The IRS conspiracy has become a very minor industry in the States, with snake-oil salesmen coming into town and giving speeches (subject to an entrance fee) telling you why you don't have to pay your income tax. Obviously with the Internet this minor industry has expanded and changed. In any event, there are impressionable people like this nutter who take this stuff very seriously.

This whiny right-wing nut should have simply paid his taxes.

Fuck, Craig, obviously this asshole had a problem with placing blame at the correct doorstep. My thinking is that he was a whiny prick who blamed random IRS employees. On the other hand, you seem to think that his grievances were coherent.

Anger is irrational. Evolution shaped it that way, as a deterrent against injustice, so I can't call him deranged. Where could he find a legitimate target? I don't wish this upon office workers. It should never have come to this, but it has, and we've all seen it coming for years.

"Let them eat cake"

"so I can't call him deranged"

I can't even imagine what would be deranged to you. Apparently Arsalan and others are not deranged. And this killer was not deranged.

You suggest that I don't have morality because I don't like people taking advantage of a tragedy.

You people are sick.

Clark,

I have read that someone hasn't been accounted for. Do you know who this is? Is it possible that this person was killed by the guy flying his plane? Did this person have kids? Did they even work there?

I tried to read through his green ink ramblings and it reads like a lot of other letters I have seen and heard of. The guy was no doubt quite educated but he was paranoid and self-pitying and he discovered that whatever he looked at would confirm his reasons for feeling paranoid and for pitying himself.

A few things, it appears the guy set up a private engineering firm for himself after graduating from university. While he pours scorn on all the suckers who he sees blithely paying taxes and not seeing injustice everywhere, it didn't seem to stop him thinking the world owed him a successful business.

He gets married, he gets divorced. 9/11 happens and he blames the government for shutting down air travel which means that his business suffered.

Some of what he writes is just stupid:

"Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is."

Totalitarian? Try visiting North Korea. Having to put a signature at the bottom of a tax return is NOT totalitarian.

"In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy."

Hey! I wish organized religions wouldn't get tax breaks too and there are ways of going about trying to get the law changed if you want. But I don't make this all about ME, ME, ME and how the world is so incredibly unfair to ME!!!!

Some of the things in here, such as the elderly couple having to live off social security is very shit! I agree. But the same people as him would probably be outraged that they pay taxes that FUND social security!

"Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars … as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY!"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586627,00.html

Angrysoba, these silly gooses actually make me miss the relativists.

"Angrysoba, these silly gooses actually make me miss the relativists."

Oh, they're a pain as well, "We've made our own reality which is just as legitimate as your reality. In fact, more so! So there!"

I remember when Jacques Derrida died. My philosophy professor laughed his head off, "How's he gonna talk himself out of that one!"

Yeah, it isn't nice to laugh at someone dying (or to gloat, of course) but some "intellectual's" influence is so toxic that it is a relief when they finally shut their yaps.

Larry,
Angrysoba,

you two just don't get it, do you? Empires rise, they become powerful, then arrogant and decadent. Those left behind bubble, and then boil, the pressure rises and eventually something has to break. It's happened time and again throughout human history. I don't want it to happen, but happen it will, and the more powerfully it is contained, the bigger the eventual bang.

Go on, blame me for noting the obvious.

Clark, no, no, let me note the obvious ... out of a population of 305 million, once in a while someone will do something selfish and destructive and murderous.

I don't think the decline of America has been in any way further signaled by this asshole not being able to deal with the fact that he couldn't pay his taxes.

How many people have you got being evicted in the US? How many repossessions, how many short of food, how many losing their pensions and healthcare? These are real questions, not rhetorical, I'm asking for figures. And are they doing up or down, and how are the second derivitaves?

"you two just don't get it, do you? Empires rise, they become powerful, then arrogant and decadent. Those left behind bubble, and then boil, the pressure rises and eventually something has to break. It's happened time and again throughout human history. I don't want it to happen, but happen it will, and the more powerfully it is contained, the bigger the eventual bang."

No, Clark. I am fully aware that America, and you can call it an Empire if you wish - it may well be - will not last forever. But you don't have to see the behaviour of this one guy as a harbinger of its imminent destruction.

Like Timothy McVeigh or Eugene Corder, this guy will look around for evidence everywhere that he is right and that everything from the tax laws to 9/11 to the behaviour of the Catholic Church is a personal attack on him and justifies his self-pity. It's incredibly self-centred and incoherent. If he was trying to damage the federal government with his behaviour then he'll be sorely disappointed. If he really believed what he wrote in his own letter he should know this. It just creates grief for other people who may well be struggling to get by too but think of more legitimate ways of tackling their grievances.

I'm just counting down for the conspiracy sites to start questioning why his plane wasn't shot down and how the authorities didn't stop a guy after posting his "manifesto" on the Internet and how this is all rather false flaggy.

How are you unemployment figures? There're looking none too good over here...

There are lots of problems, as one can expect in any economic downturn.

Have you noticed how fucked up other countries are?

Have you also noticed how very few individuals go on a murder spree because of their economic circumstances? Offhand, I can think of only one - this asshole.

So are you arguing that there's lots of these assholes out there?

I'm not talking about the USA specifically, more corporatism and its hold on government in general. And yes, people are a mixed bunch. The worse it gets, the more people go over the edge like Stacks; it's just human diversity in action, blaming him makes no difference whatsoever.

And I'm not laying any bets on when a big bang might occur; pressure is great, containment is strong, representation is poor, and I think stability is becoming increasingly strained.

Angrysoba,

there's already one of them about; "What was that fire engine doing just there?"

The thing is, you never know which stone will start the rockslide.

Clark, are you talking about the U.S. specifically or are you not talking about the U.S. specifically?

big bang / rock slide / people going over the edge - you're really going to have to come up with better evidence than 1 out of 305 million.

Jesus Christ.

1 part per 305 million.

Even your homepaths would love at that.

"I hear all this talk about Tea Baggers they are not tax protestors they are mostly hard working people with families and kids just wanting the government back to where it should be working for the people who elected them doing what they should do because the people want it not doing what they want and ignoring the same people which is what this administration continues to do daily because they know what is best for us even if we dont know what the hell is wrong with everyone that writes negative rants about these smae Tea party people yet love how the government is operating well we sure are on a path of destruction when honest hard working americans are looked down on as being crazy rednecks and stupid radicals heaven help AMERICA..."

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-whats-insane-lots-of-people-are-defending-joseph-andrew-stack-2010-2

"because almost everyone around him most likely realized he was crazy , they walked right past him ...

and so he did this ...... the saddest most desperate act to get attention ... he wasn't trying to get attention for his cause , but for himself ...

take myself for example ... i don't want ANYONE to know who i am .. i want to be judged purely by the veracity of my ideas , nothing more .... this guy here , we know his name , we know he set his house on fire , we know he had family problems , we know he had money problems etc etc .... ME ME ME ME ME ME ME HERE I AM ME ME ME!!!

another ballon boy , only this time deadly ."

And the first comment:

"lots of people on the interent are mentally ill"

Has the building collapsed yet?

"Has the building collapsed yet?"

Aha!

And where are the plane parts? And wasn't the hole too small? And where was NORAD?

Larry

'these silly gooses actually make me miss the relativists.'

I think it should be silly geese. As in 'I hate those geeses to pieces'.

"Has the building collapsed yet?"

Were there any Jews nearby?

"Perhaps more people need to fly into tax offices around the world."

Larry : What a horribly infantile yet cruel statement.

Angrysoba : This is so stupid!

Oh come on guys, he was joking! You know, that explosion of fricative 'hur hur' sounds that comes from the larynx and indicates mirth. Try it, it's fun.

"he was joking!"

Yeah, perhaps I spend too much time here being dead serious, and perhaps he was joking and I missed it.

This issue comes up all the time when one is being sarcastic, and I'm usually on the other end of it. It seems to work if one places /s/ at the end of an entry.

Larry wrote:

"out of a population of 305 million, once in a while someone will do something selfish and destructive and murderous."

I agree. Now, given the world's population that kind of thing is even more likely.

So is it worth going to war -- including against one country which had nothing to do with it -- when a handful of people commit selfish, destructive and murderous acts?

Apparently it is, but only when those in power already wanted to go to war for other reasons.

That's the point. These acts are used as an excuse, or completely ignored, according to ulterior motives.

If the guy flying this plane had been a muslim, rather than someone with a more local grudge, you can bet he would be all over the news labelled as a terrorist and used as an excuse to pour even more fuel on the fire of our own terrorism abroad.

Now, feel free to build yet more strawmen out of this, brand me a 9/11 conspiracy nutter or something (even though I've said nothing of the sort), and try to distract people from the simple and obvious point of both what I've just said and what Craig said in his root post.

You must be running out of straw by now!?

I wonder, are we going to hear why, and what motivated, Joe Stack into crashing his plane into the IRS building, or are we, instead, going to hear that he did it because he hated democracy and our way of life, and that he relished the thought of killing innocent civilians, like Muslim terrorists are supposed to?

And futhermore, has the suicide bomber come to the United States, and is he, not an alien Muslim, but instead a product of the culture of the homeland?

I've read the full text of his suicide note, it is an intelligent, powerful and convincing piece of work, his act may have been extreme but his feelings are very truthful.

David Neiwert has made a career of reporting on anti-government militias in the US, and is always a good read on this kind of thing:

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/breaking-small-plane-crashes-governm
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/huh-when-attempting-blow-federal-bui

From what I've read it seems pretty clear that this was a politically motivated act and thus terrorism - and suicide terrorism at that.

@Larry from St Louis.

"Has the building collapsed yet?

Were there any Jews nearby?"

What an infantile cruel statement.

The first of those two Neiwert pieces linked above includes the text of the suicide manifesto posted by Stack on the web.

The USA perhaps should consider attacking itself, in its unending 'War on Terror'. Most of the 'terror' in the world emanates from there. Columbine et al are all emblematic of this basic truism.

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Mark, why give money to those creeps? What will they do with it? When other websites beg for money, they always spend a bit more time justifying their need for cash.

Why would anyone give money to an organization that believes that the unsubstantiated and silly claims of 911 troof justify mustering a firing squad?

Crazy people are fun!

www.opednews.com/articles/1/Who-Are-the-Citizens-for-a-by-Abigail-Adams-081014-999.html

For the next Honours List, I propose Sir Lawrence KBE, for services to the Empire. Any seconders?

Did that comment really warrant having a place in two threads?

For the peeps that had a dig at my little post:

Have a sense of humour. I have recently become insolvent and am feeling a tad bitter.

I feel hiding behind words and 'intellect' can be stupid too. The merry-go-round we call politics is proof of this. The good fellows hiding behing their posts is proof of this. Whenever I attempt to write a sensible post on here it doesn't get commented on because, I imagine I'm not very clever at wording things. So am therefore ignored. Given something to design- like a computer network or even a picture and I'm sure I could beat the pants of most of you on here. I give up.

The next tax man, debt collector, bank chief, baliff or thieving MP that gets killed or flown into will get a laugh from me. I may even start notching my wall.

Marcus, are you really Karl Pilkington?

Linked below is a good preliminary dissection of the odd thoughts in Joe Stack's head. This is for all you silly gooses who thought his gripes were justified, or that America is so screwed up that this sort of thing happens all the time or will happen all the time in the future.

Written by an acquaintance of mine, actually.

http://www.slate.com/id/2245337/

Ah, 4:27pm, eternal vigilance! Veritably, it is The Story of The Eye. Or perhaps, The Story of O.

"The next tax man, debt collector, bank chief, baliff or thieving MP that gets killed or flown into will get a laugh from me. I may even start notching my wall."

Did that comment warrant a place in one thread?

"Written by an acquaintance of mine, actually."

Is that right?

I've just linked to that in a post that I finally finished off.

I think if Alex Jones can play the "false flag" card here then I can question where Alex Jones was at the time of this incident and how he knew this would take place:

http://angrysoba.blogspot.com/2010/02/coincidence-theory.html

Please do not endorse CLG. Under the administration of Lori Price, it has become an anti-Semitic hate site.

For example:

During the Iranian Holocaust Denial Convention of Dec. 11 2006, CLG accused Israel of committing genocide using depleted uranium.

The bodies had not yet been buried before CLG was blaming Israel for the Mumbai attacks, citing the anti-Semite, and Holocaust minimizer Michael A Hoffman II.

On CLG’s “Political Education” page, a link to Marx’s “On the Jewish Question“ sends its readers to Ahmed Rami’s "RadioIslam" which the Southern Poverty Law Center has called “the most vicious anti Jewish campaign in Europe since the Third Reich“.

Lori Price has shown solidarity with the Aftenbladet “organ harvesting” story.

She gave a full throated support of Hezbollah during the 2006 war, posting their propaganda on CLG.

I have written to Ms Price about this for over three years now, and while she says she will “look into it“, or that it is “an oversight“ nothing changes.

There are many other examples of this kind of thing on CLG.

For the intellectually curious, one might read chapter nine of Simon Winchester’s “Krakatoa” to see that Islamic terror is not new, and has little to do with Joseph Andrew Stack.

"Lori Price has shown solidarity with the Aftenbladet “organ harvesting” story.

She gave a full throated support of Hezbollah during the 2006 war, posting their propaganda on CLG.

I have written to Ms Price about this for over three years now, and while she says she will “look into it“, or that it is “an oversight“ nothing changes."

Can't say I'm surprised. Looking at Ms. Price's comments to news she links to:

"Yeah, letting the US in to 'help' is like letting 40 child molesters loose on a playground." is one comment by her on the US' involvement in aid to Haiti after the earthquake.

Why do they hate their own freedoms ?

The `double-standard' goes both ways.

Or rather, only Craig Murray and others of a similar ideology actually employ a double-standard in regard to the definition of terrorism.

The Obama govt, for its part, is being totally consistent: the `underwear' bomber, they said, was or is not a terrorist; the IRS plane guy was not a terrorist, either.

I have no problem labelling both men as terrorists, but it seems that Craig Murray, and others in the U.S. who echo his point of view, only want to label one guy - the white guy - as a terrorist.

Perhaps I am wrong; but if not Craig Murray, than for many others of his ideology, you practically had to pull their teeth out before they would name the rampage of Major Hassan at Ft. Hood last year as a terrorist act (it was `post traumatic stress disorder', they claimed... even tho Hassan had not yet been in combat).

But, a white guy drives his plane into a govt building and up pops Murray and the rest of the clowns, screaming `terrorist!'

Somehow, if this IRS freak was from the Middle East, their responses would have been more circumspect.

But, perhaps I am wrong.

R B Glennie,

you surmise wrongly - I agree with you they were both terrorists.

Very well then, Amb. Murray.

What about Major Hassan?

And, will you agree also that many on the liberal-left, not including Craig Murray, were very reluctant to admit that Hassan was a terrorist?

Further, that many who share your views are very quick to label violent whites as not only terrorists, but also, as being inspired by mainstream conservative views (ie. the commentary that the IRS dink's views were `inspired by "tea-baggers" or that cons. radio hosts inspired the freak who shot up the Holocaust museum in DC last year?)

I don't expect you will agree - or you will cop out (`I'm not responsible for what others say...').

The problem is, that I strongly suspect that the people you refer to as "those who share my views" do not share my views. Of course Major Hassan was a terrorist.

RB Glennie, the irony (one of several actually, but let's not bloat ourselves)in relation to the recent 'plane incident in the USA, resides in the lack of 'This is the eve of destruction/ national emergency/ let's tag all white males' hysteria that usually accompanies a Muslim person speaking in Arabic/Urdu/Persian/Kurdish/Swahili on 'planes, trains and automobiles. If a Muslim person sneezes the wrong way at an airport, or writes a stupid poem, or indulges in some risque and /or immature bravado debate on the web, they are at risk of being picked-up and charged with 'The Prevention of Globally Evil Thoughts and Witchcraft Act, 2009'. Don't try and invert the paradigm in an attempt to obscure the dynamic. Btw, and for the record, Major Hassan, George W. Bush and Tony Blair are all terrorists and should be put in a cell together in a very cold place so that they can share stories for the next 50 years.

"If a Muslim person sneezes the wrong way at an airport, or writes a stupid poem, or indulges in some risque and /or immature bravado debate on the web, they are at risk of being picked-up and charged with 'The Prevention of Globally Evil Thoughts and Witchcraft Act, 2009'."

What the fuck are you whining about? I suppose that you might have a few examples that could be painted as such, but certainly not enough to justify your pathetic whining.

"If a Muslim person sneezes the wrong way at an airport . . ."

Muslims playing the victum again?

It does get tiresome.

Suhayl Saadi, don't forget that, in the U.S., apparently you can put explosives in your underwear and you'll still get lawyer and other rights under civilian criminal law.

But never mind - a pathetic person like you will still whine.

Larry, Suhayl Saadi is right about people getting booted off of planes for speaking Arabic (or even what "sounded like Arabic or sumfink") because some passengers complained. And a woman did get arrested for writing poetry (she was a bit silly to refer to herself as the Lyrical Terrorist and she did come out with some pretty stupid stuff but still...). I haven't heard of anyone being arrested for sneezing the wrong way though but we're all allowed a bit of hyperbole.

Anyway, I think it is quite possible to call Joe Stack a terrorist, especially if he has some kind of political agenda. Clearly there are different kinds of terrorism, though. Is somebody part of an organization and taking orders from somewhere? If so, clearly there is a distinction between someone who acts on their own made-up political ideology and those acting according to a political ideology of an organization.

The only people who would equate Joseph Stack with jihad are doddering fools, and well, Muslims.

It is just another example of the false equivalences we constantly get from Muslims and their sympathizers.

Here is an example of how unfairly Muslims are treated.

Lockerbie bomber Megrahi living in luxury villa six months after being at 'death's door'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/7279123/Lockerbie-bomber-Megrahi-living-in-luxury-villa-six-months-after-being-at-deaths-door.html

"The only people who would equate Joseph Stack with jihad are doddering fools"

Certainly. Jihadists have incorporated a violent ideology. They preach it, talk about it and act on it.

Lone nuts like Joe Stack are harder to predict and are always going to exist in (despite what Stack might have thought) non-totalitarian societies.

"The only people who would equate Joseph Stack with jihad are doddering fools, and well, Muslims. ... It is just another example of the false equivalences we constantly get"

That would be sort of like the way you go veering off talking about "jihad" when the question was "terrorism" ?

I don’t think I am “veering off”, but rather getting to point.

Craig Murray has taken a left turn slamming the story of Joseph Stack into Muslims, and terror.

And to what purpose? If he is not trying to imply that Muslims are judged by a double standard, or that Joseph Stack’s actions are like those of Osama bin Laden, what IS he trying to say?

Joseph Stack has nothing to do with Muslims, or jihad.

As the first commenter asked, “What is your point?”

“What is your point?”

That complaints against other people offering false equivalences are probably more effectively pursued by means other than the offering of false equivalences.

Glad to find you on here!

Steven,
Savannah, GA

It might interest you to know that you share the view of CAIR, a Muslim Brotherhood front operating in the US.
Craig Murry is providing intellectual coverage for an Islamist agenda, and endoresing websites that promote Holocaust denial.
I am not impressed.

QED.

No.

There is no reason to play your cards so close to your vest.

Show us what you have.

What are you trying say?

Do you need help?

I think I have been clear enough.

It is time for you to do the same.

Do you have any ability to respond to what somebody else says ?

Achooo!!

Sorry, I have a cold.

Gosh, could it be that Sir Lawrence, recently invested with an Honorary KBE, expresses a penchant for explosive underwear? Does Sir Lawrence believe in witches, one wonders? Or in the efficacy of the Malleus Malleficarum?

Whatever gets you thru' the night...

Get me my broom!

What the world needs now, a good 2-dollar broom.

Absolutely, Richard! Veritably, it is the 13th Labour of Heracles.

Perhaps also, we need a Gorgon's Head, to turn the guns to stone.

Thanks also, angrysoba. I agree with the points you've made in both paragraphs of your 1235am post.

Also, arabic writing on a tshirt just *got* to be a terroristy slogan. I think he saw them in court for that and won, finally.

It's entirely bizarre. Person kills themself flying plane into government building, in hopes, apparently, of encouraging other people to not put up with said government. So, what on earth is it that leads people to pronounce one case "obviously terrorist", and another "obviously not" ?

But then, there were people arrested round here (Lancashire) a couple of years ago. Said, in the local papers, to be the biggest collection of "stuff to make explosives out of" ever busted in the country. BNP bloke, stockpiling for "the coming race war". Shockhorrorterror all over the headlines ? Anybody remember noticing it, at all ? The resulting trial hardly seemed to be covered at all. I'd still like to know why the coppers guarding the house told all the neighbours it was "obviously" not a terrorist thing.

Got to keep sweeping and sweeping, but there's just too many feet.

“So, what on earth is it that leads people to pronounce one case "obviously terrorist", and another "obviously not" ?”

It is a good question.

Suhayl Saadi seems to have a particularly hard time at this.

I believe he was referring to the “lyrical terrorist” in a previous comment at February 22, 2010 6:30 PM about someone writing a “silly poem.”

That would be Samina Malik who “was a perfectly placed terror insider at one of the world’s largest airports. She wrote poems about beheadings, poison bullets and martyrdom, posting them to “attract men.” “

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325329,00.html

As it turns out she was to come in contact with Sohail Qureshi who “police had . . . under surveillance when he contacted Malik to ask about security at the airport. Recent testimony revealed that the dangerous duo was in e-mail contact.”

“Just before his arrest, Qureshi asked Malik, "What is the system like at work? Is the checking still very harsh or have things calmed down a bit?"

“Describing his “vacation” in an e-mail, Qureshi wrote, "Pray that I kill many, brother. Revenge, revenge, revenge."“

This is not just writing poems, or engaging in braggadocio, and is nothing to sneeze at.

And, in light of recent events like Ft Hood, people who are semaphoring their desire to commit violent jihad should be arrested. It is jihad and that is what we should be talking about when discussing Muslims and terror.

However, if it is any consolation to you the difficulty in distinguishing between random acts of violence and jihad appears to be quite common.

I say "terrorism", you say "jihad". Let's call the whole thing off.

Think for a moment about some aspects of the the Republican tradition in Northern Ireland, the songs, the poems, the other writings, even, in some cases, the connection with very dubious organisations and characters. Same with some elements of Unionism. We lived through a sustained terrorist assault in the UK, but although there was harassment of 'people with Irish accents' and of course one is well-aware of the dark dealings extant wrt Northern Ireland, it seems to me that the hysteria generated during the current situation is in danger of eroding the most important good points about our society.

People will know I argue strong against the tendencies and mindsets which are associated with 'Jihadism', etc.; this is somehting which I think Muslims need to address within their/ our communities; but I think we need to get a sense of pragmatism, intelligence (in both senses) and proportion. The prosecution of deluded fools only serves to make them martyrs - exactly what they want! - and diverts attention from real problems.

I do not think that violence-preachers of whatever religion should have an easy ride here or in the US; the Rapture-lusting preachers who long for nuclear war and who gleefully support with their dough and their voices the killing of Arabs and others by, for example, Israel, are every bit as heinous as the Jihadists.

I agree with Richard Robinson. It's all madness.

So Western preachers = Muslim jihadists.

Right.

I can't say it better than Bill Maher.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhvhNZC51gY

Wll, if you listen to what some preachers preach... they regrad the US military machine as the engine of God. Thae problem is, God seems to be on everyone's side.

Which preachers are you talking about? I never hear from them.

Just as well!

Right, when pressed, you can't come up with anything specific.

No matter - you'll continue to equate the silly things that American preachers say (or don't in fact say) with the worst fatwas that the mullahs dictate to their wide-eyed jihadist followers.

The religious Right in the US is a massive source of support for aggressive imperialism and specifically for a nutcase End of Days agenda; there are many preachers who preach this type of doctrine, they're all over the cable channels, every day. And have been for some decades. Pat Robertson is probably the most prominent example, but there are many others.

This is not a ping-pong match, Larry, in spite of my sometimes absurdist humour, I don't actually disagree with everything you say. I fully recognise the problems in some parts of some Muslim communities and constantly argue against people being in denial about this, as well as about the 'Islamisation' of countries like Pakistan (Oh God, Now I'll be inviting a tirade from a different group of bloggers!).

The aim of most terrorist groups - IRA, Red Army Faction, the various Jihadist groups - is to provoke the state into overwhelming retaliation. This serves their purposes and sucks the state into a morass from which it becomes increasingly difficult to extract itself. This seems to have occured.

"Thae problem is, God seems to be on everyone's side."

Judas Iscariot ? Dylan asked. Yes, said Borges.

Maybe the "jealous god" religions are more prone to imposing themselves on others for their own good ? I don't know enough about the others to be sure (I never heard of any Taoist crusades, but that may only be because I'm ignorant). But then, see also "Communism", "Tony Blair's Humanitarianism", etc. "For their own good" can be a frightening thing. "Kill them all, God will know his own". Something you read in the Koran, something you read in Leviticus, what the hell ? Deus Vult.

I was picking at the 'jihad' thing becasue I just don't understand, why can't we talk about terrorism without people turn up wanting to push all the other questions out of sight and obsess on jihadis, only jihadis ? Hysteria, yes.

And again, yes, I was wondering about bringing up the northern Ireland Troubles. I rmembered, this afternoon, an editorial from the time of the Birmingham pub bombing (it being the days before bookmarks, I can't give a reference), insisting that the police needed to make arrests quickly or there would be Irish bodies hanging from the lamp-posts of Birmingham. And they did. And justice was never seen to be done.

Ah. That's my objection, that we're supposed to forget our own experiences & conclusions at the insistence of people who hadn't noticed there was ever anything like it before. Self-centredness must be a difficult temptation when you feel under threat to start with.

There's a curious parallel to be made. What was it like for Irish people in Birmingham then, or for London Muslim people after the Tube bombs, etc etc, similiarities ? differences ? We have, after all, been here before. And recovered, mostly. That could seem a ghastly cold phrase for those caught up in them, and the others, but I hope everyone sees what I mean ?

In fact, how come Blair doing the 'deny them the oxygen of oxygen' stuff abroad while simultaneously getting along with a 'peace process' ? (sigh) One seemingly kicked off by Clinton, the other by Bush.

I gibber. It's too big for me.

Richard, don't worry, we're all gibberers - or jabberers - at heart! That's why we're here, I guess. On this forum. On this earth.

Thanks, Suhayl. Maybe, also, I digressed, in that the original question was on a USA event. So, just another of those Suave Nuanced Brits with all their Colonial Experience, now with new ! added ! Blowback !

But I still don't understand why The "T" Word has become a sticking point. Is absolutely everything all right except one form of jihad, somehow ?
Wikipedia describes Timothy McVeigh as a 'terrorist', and also as not particularly a religious loony. Is this suddenly to be disputed on the basis of some mysterious taking-of-sides ?

Mind you, I'm an extremist weirdo myself. I'd like to see the word extended to cover hubristic prime ministers, and any other bastard who thinks it's okay to have other people killed just so long as it furthers their agenda.

And now I'm going out to drink Beer.

Have one on me!

Craig, that "news service", Citizens for Legitimate Government is one of the craziest troughs of conspiraloonery I've ever seen.

I hope NO-ONE gives them their money!

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