Agreed, Craig. As a pal of mine pointed out, when the Govt gave everyone a day off for the Royal Wedding, no-one worried about the money lost to the economy. When, with very good reason, miilions of people go on strike for a day, suddenly “half-a-billion pounds” becomes an issue. How many trillions have we given to the financial institutions?

OT:
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Anybody else happen to see Oxford Films’ ‘Wikleaks — Secrets & Lies’ on More4 last night? Unless I’m missing something, most thorough coverage of débâcle so far.
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Most astonishing moment came when Nick Davies, who we may be sure has met a lot of villains in his time, described how he’d been forced to the conclusion that Brother Julian is ‘the most dishonest person I’ve ever met.’
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That the film should have been confined to such a marginal slot (testimony that spineless careerists now run British broadcasting) is a scandal it itself. Only came across the programme by accident.

Well worth a read of this Paul Krugman blogpost:
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http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/30/bleeding-britain/
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I guess you both reach a similar conclusion about Cameron and Osborne, that they are committed politically to being arseholes.

Yes well said.

.
Occupy LSX invaded the HQ of Xstrata today. The CEO Mick Davis ‘earnt’ or rather took £18m last year. The previous year it was £27m. He is the highest paid executive on the FTSE quoted companies.
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Occupy London – part of the global movement for social and economic justice – today highlighted the corporate greed endemic in the UK and called for a change within society.
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About 60 protestors gained entry into the offices of mining company Xstrata, a ‘leading light’ of the FTSE 100 and British industry to highlight the fact that CEO Mick Davies was the highest compensated CEO of all the FTSE 100 companies in the last year, when his companies had losses and the economy collapsed. He received £18,426,105 for his efforts. [1]
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This comes in a year when the average pay rise of executives across FTSE 100 companies was 43%, with ‘top’ directors at 49%. [2]
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Led by a samba band to the building from Piccadilly Circus, the protesters entered the HQ at 25-7 Haymarket, London, with the protesters chanting against the corporate greed of Mick and other executives, in support of all those striking for fair pensions for all today. The protestors also unfurled a banner saying “All power to the 99%” from the roof top.
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There are currently about 20 protesters inside – being held down on knees, of which many are women. There are a few hundred people kettled outside.
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The protesters today are making the connection between the slashing of private and public sector pensions, while supposed ‘top’ executives cash in by increasing their own pay levels, leaving many without pensions. These CEOs like Mick Davies lavishly secure their own futures while ignoring the security and wellbeing of their own workers.
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Mines have closed in Australia, South Africa and Spain within the last decade resulting in hundreds of workers in the last decade being laid off.
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Karen Lincoln, supporter of Occupy London said: “Mick Davies is a prime example of the greedy 1 per cent, lining their own pockets while denying workers pensions. In this time when the government enforces austerity on the 99 per cent, these executives are profiting. The rest of us are having our pensions cuts, health service torn apart and youth centres shut down.
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“We refuse to stand by and let this happen. We call on others to join us in the fight for a more just society. Today we have taken this to one of the offices of the 1 per cent. This is only the beginning. Come and join us on 15th December for Occupy Everywhere.”

Occupy London will unveil details of Occupy Everywhere soon. Be ready.

.

http://occupylsx.org/?p=1725

I’d have thought the ConDems would really welcome this strike, so they can blame it entirely for missed economic growth targets for years to come. After all, the extra bank holiday for the royal wedding provided a dead handy excuse, as did a bit of snow last Winter. Lord forbid we have the same number of public holidays as our continental partners – the economy would surely collapse completely and we’d all die of starvation.

Craig,
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To continue the Titanic analogy, I doubt if the ship is going to sink.
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More likely it will eventually limp into port, listing to one side and with all pumps going. The first class passengers will get off first and be taken away in limos, while the ordinary folk have to walk home.

@John K
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Ever the optimist!

Today’s strike is about how unjustly the rewards in British society are shared. For understandable reasons, the economy is as likely to contact as to grow, for many years. We would be a saner, healthier and more productive society if rewards and resources were shared on a basis that most felt were just. “We are all in it together” would be an admirable rallying cry if government action was based on how food ought to be shared in order to avert a famine.

It’s not just the bankers. My phone is a Nokia with Orange as the supplier. In January I took out a contract to pay a monthly payment. Periodically (although only occasionally) certain touch buttons are unaccountably disabled (when crucial). I have today been notified that there is to be an increase of more than 4% in my monthly payments because “as you will be aware inflation is at a record high for the last twenty years”. Now I might be a little stupid, but one of the reasons inflation is so high, is because Gas and other energy companies are increasing prices without justification. Unlike local government they are not ‘capped’. There used to be a call to nationalise the banks. I’m for that. Nationalised industries do not need to make a profit, and while I agree staff in nationalised industries tend to be less motivated, privates banking and power companies are interested, not just in profit, because that is an old word, since the introduction of super-profits. I couldn’t agree more that using taxpayers money to overpay with bonuses already overpaid bankers is a disgrace.

Jonanagus, I must be missing something. I don’t get TV, I live in Canada and I do not understand how the Guardian’s vendetta against Assange has got mixed up with the death agonies of liberal capitalism.
Clearly Nick Davies has never run into George Monbiot.

This strike might at least let off a bit of steam, as long as the employers or govt don’t resort to reprisals. When a society reaches breaking point, the results can often be abrupt and to no-one’s benefit. And that steam gauge has been in the red now for rather too long.
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Of course, Cameron is playing a game honed to excellence by previous govts from Mrs Thatcher on. A strike gives them someone to demonise and blame for the state of a nation they and their city friends have already looted. In fact a strike isn’t just expected – it’s required. If people don’t strike, they’re provoked until they do, and a tame media can be unleashed on them. And – like foreign wars – it seems to work every time.

Thanks for that Mary, occupy everywhere, hmm, we have the choice, what a great idea, the more the better.
Choose well I say. Who can say what a roadblock on the M40 and maybe a few other arteries winding their way round London could achieve? I surely could, it would kill the City stone dead within hours.

It was tried first by the muchachos I muchachas de Argentina, such delay would soon turn to gridlock to the delight of CEO’s everywhere. Interesting opinion piece, a bit long but full of ideas.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011113084114302954.html

From the Paul Krugman blog linked to by Eddie-G:

‘It really is just like a medieval doctor bleeding his patient, observing that the patient is getting sicker, not better, and deciding that this calls for even more bleeding.’

Rather like the doctors in Missolonghi bleeding Lord Byron – so our government are applying the same measures to us as were current in Greece at that time – and still are, economically at least!

I’m getting anaemic, and so are you, but the Government are not, because they are the leeches, and are growing fatter by the hour (just look at the ConDem front bench).

Craig – I too wonder when the LibDems will turn away – but I fear that they can’t, now that they’ve followed the Tories so far down this path. And you are correct in saying that Ed Balls would be doing the same thing, if he were Chancellor, with just a few deckchairs moved from one side to the other to give an illusion of balance.

@ Jonangus
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No, just realistic. I very much doubt if we are going to see a complete collapse of Western capitalism, rather a reversal or at best a halt to the last 30 years or so of unustainable “growth” based on a property and financial bubble.
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Expectations of continual increases in amounts of “stuff” cluttering the nations homes will have to be put on hold and some will experience genuine hardship. But at the end of the period material I would think average living standards in the UK will still be very much better than they were even 20 years ago.
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Whether we will be able to reverse or even check the continued looting of the national and international wealth pile by the “overclass” is a different issue. There seems to be no appetite for taking on these people by any political party likely to have a say in government. Income inequality will clearly get worse, as it has for the last 15 years or more, before it gets better again.
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But that’s not the same as the whole ship sinking.

Spot on, Craig. Whenever are people going to get it that the well has run dry? There’s only so much profit they can screw out of ordinary people and the environment. All Ponzi schemes eventually fall flat, all South Sea Bubbles burst finally.

Speaking as a middle-ground, ordinary person for whom moderate and moderated capitalism worked more or less until c. late ’90s, rationally I can see it’s as plain as the nose on CallMeDave’s face that we’ve reached the end of the line. All we’re experiencing now is the increasingly agonised death throes of a system that is now too desperate to cover up its innate, even psychopathic savagery.

BTW, may I suggest – with great sadness – that the LibDems will go along with it until their clutch on power runs out? There is no social decency in this psychopathically rapacious era, those who need political power cannot afford decency, social or otherwise. Indeed, the whole desperate debacle can be summed up, IMHO, not as an global economic crisis but, rather, as a complete catastrophe for ethics globally and personally.

@Chris 2: Just checkin’. You do know that OT stands for ‘off topic’? I fear those (i.e. most people) who didn’t see this film but who are at all interested in the topic are missing something. That was partly my point.

“The People Are Not Stupid”
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Unfortunately the people are very stupid!, given a vote tomorrow the people will still (once again) vote for one of the three main parties. I see you are still at it Craig, thinking there is a difference between the tories and the lib dems!!!, I will have to put you into the category of the “very stupid”. Clegg is to the right of Cameron, truth be known Miliband is to the right of Clegg, you have bought the illusion hook, line and sinker. Try and undestand there is only one party in the houses of parliament, it is the tory party.

@John K: Was being sarcastic. But not entirely. BBC Newsnight’s economics editor Paul Mason said in autumn 2008, off air: ‘This is worse than 1929.’ And look what that led to.

Despite the bad hair do and crap duffel coat, blogger Richard Seymour aka Lenin gives an interesting and informative backgrounder on today’s strike.
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https://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/30/millions_of_british_public_sector_workers
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Seems to be saying that the govt are making enemies unnecessarily.
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Cameron was reported to have wanted the strike (shades of Maggie and the miners). But back then was very different to today. Now every one of the 99% is pissed off about something and they will only be getting more pissed off as time goes on. This is not a time for an adversarial approach. I think the govt are showing what amateurs they are, but that’s good in many ways.

For the first time in ages changed the Channel to BBC to find Jeremy Clarkson ranting on; ” I would shoot the strikers in front of their family, ….. blah … bollocks… Some of us have to work for a living”.
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That coming from a tosser who plays teenage boys; driving cars and mincing on the telly, damn hard work I should imagine, but hey that is the bizarre fucked up world we live in. These days “kardashians” is a job description, and keeping up with them is another.
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Had enough and Changed the channel to Simpsons cartoon to stay in touch with reality. Thinking; most probably I will have to work until my ninetieth Birthday, because the too big to fail banks have to be kept going no matter how long I work, and how hard these bastards can squeeze the life out of me.

“The People Are Not Stupid”

Well, I am.

I can’t work out how to upload my avatar to this website, and have been asking on the previous thread.

I see Glenn, has already worked it out. Perhaps he could answer on the previous thread so as not to clutter this one.

Many Thanks,

Tony

Quite telling for the times that lie ahead?
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30 November 2011
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More baton rounds training at Metropolitan Police
There was a “level of tension” that police might not have picked up on before the riots, the report found
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Scotland Yard is training more officers to use baton rounds – also known as plastic bullets – according to a police report into the August riots.
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The Metropolitan Police force is also considering whether to buy water cannon to deal with any large-scale disorder. The use of CCTV with facial recognition could also be stepped up.
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Extra public order powers might also be requested from the government.
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/..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15957872

https://support.twitter.com/groups/31-twitter-basics/topics/107-my-profile-account-settings/articles/127871-how-to-change-your-profile-picture-or-information

??

Why do you guys go to tweeter? I have posted in the last thread too, go to the site and register and it is as easy as that.
,
,
Tony,
You are not stupid, it is the computers wot done it.

Contrasting BBC coverage of the Strike this evening. Radio 4′s PM dealt with it very even-handedly, giving the awful Gove a hard time. But the BBC1 6.00pm News was the usual tabloid nonsense with Nick Robinson arranging a meeting between a young teacher protesting the pension changes and a Cafe owner in London who “couldn’t afford a pension”. Of course everyone knew almost exactly what the teacher earned, while the Cafe owner (who looked pretty prosperous) wasn’t asked how much he earned or how much a pension would cost him. It was the usual Toryboy Nick Robinson stuff, comparing apples and oranges and concluding the apples had nothing to moan about. Bet he gets an honour before too long.

And Craig,

A big part of the problem of inequity and inequality in the UK relates to the “war machine”. Not myself a pacifist, but I believe that – the issue is not whether you have guns or you don’t – it really is whether you use the weapon(s) that you have to make peace or war…trouble is some want to keep making the war..and war…and more war….and the people then logically must take to the streets – what else can they do? – become soldiers to get paid and means of living….look at the “war machine” and the expenditures related thereto…and then you start coming close to the heart of the matter.

FOLLOWNG IS EXTRACTED FROM RT….

The Seven Step Mainstream Media Country Destruction Guide

1. First, they start by targeting a country ripe for “Regime Change”, and brand it a “rogue state”; then…

2. They arm, train, finance local terrorist groups through CIA, MI6, Mossad, Al-Qaeda (a CIA operation), drug cartels (often CIA operations) and call them “freedom fighters”; then…

3. As mock UN Security Council Resolutions are staged that rain death and destruction upon millions of civilians, they call it “UN sanctions to protect civilians”; then…

4. They spread flagrant lies through their “newsrooms” and paid journalists, and call it “the international community’s concerns expressed by prestigious spokespeople and analysts…” then…

5. They bomb, invade and begin to control the target country and call it “liberation”; then…

6. As the target country falls fully under their control, they impose “the kind of democracy that we want to see” (as Hillary Clinton before visiting Egypt and Tunisia on March 10, 2011), until finally…

7. They steal appetizing oil, mineral and agricultural reserves handing them over to Global Power Elite corporations, and impose unnecessary private banking debt and call it “foreign investment and reconstruction.”

Their keynotes are: Force and Hypocrisy, which they have used time and again to destroy entire countries, always in the name of “freedom”, “democracy”, “peace” and “human rights”. Utmost force and violence is used to achieve their ends and goals.

Their Elders recommended this many decades ago in a blueprint for World Domination written on a hoary manuscript of old…

“What did you say…? That you don’t want to be ‘liberated’ and ‘democratized’?!?”

“Then, take this Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hanoi, Berlin, Dresden, Baghdad, and Basra!! Take that Tokyo, Gaza, Lebanon, Kabul, Pakistan, Tripoli, Belgrade, Egypt, El Salvador and Grenada!! And take that, Panama, Argentina, Chile, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Somalia, Africa!!”

Always bombing people to smithereens… Always, of course, in the name of “freedom”, “democracy”, “peace” and “human rights”

Fedup, yeah, I agree completely about that crass, hypocritical oaf, Clarkson and everything he represents.

PLEASE – HAVE A LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THE DEFENCE BUDGET; THE STRATEGIES FOR STARTING WAR; THE ARMS INDUSTRY …AND ADD IT ALL TOGETHER – THEN CONTRAST AGAINST THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE JOBS OR MUCH PROSPECT FOR HONESTLY IMPROVING THEIR LOT IN LIFE….ANY CONNECTIONS THERE?

WHY NOT SPEND THE “WAR MACHINE MONEY” IN THE DOMESTIC ECONOMY TO ASSIST THE PEOPLE? – OR – IS THAT A STUPID QUESTION?

Yes but what is to be done. Some may think occupying thinks and the inevitable collapse of capitalism will solve everything – but all it will cause is alot of misery for most people and its replacement with goodness with what. But my guess is that it will be somewhat more nationalistic and right wing than what we have now.

Eddie G gave a link to the excellent Krugman blog – who as well as moaning about what is happening now happens to be a Keynesian with more than a few ideas about how to get us out of this mess – this post is as good a starting point as any http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/death-by-hawkery/#more-26755

As Craig should note it takes a rather different stance about debt than that of the Manchester Liberal school to which he appears to belong. It is also as far as I can discern the only coherent alternative on the left that has any chance of getting popular endorsement.

[Jon/mod: Sorry Tony, off-topic]

Look at the massive jump in the FTSE today, a day after the gloomy forecasts and predictions and on the day when 2m strike. Weird eh?
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FTSE 100 5,505.42 +168.42 +3.16% .
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Nothing to do with six central banks, including ours, printing some more money?
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30 November 2011
Central banks join forces to ease financial strains
The Bank of England is one of six central banks taking part in the co-ordinated action
Some of the world’s biggest central banks have announced a programme of co-ordinated action designed to support the global financial system.
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The US Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank (ECB), the Bank of England and the central banks of Canada, Japan and Switzerland are all involved.
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They will make it cheaper for banks to buy US dollars, which they hope will ultimately help businesses and households access finance more easily.

Stock markets rose sharply on the news.

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“You could call the global coordinated initiative an attempt to prevent the current funding difficulties for eurozone banks deteriorating into Credit Crunch ll for the global financial system” Robert Peston Business editor

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As well as cheaper US dollars, the central banks will also provide easier access for banks to other major currencies as and when they need it, beginning 5 December.
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Germany’s Dax index closed 5% higher, while France’s Cac 40 jumped 4.2% and the UK’s FTSE 100 rose 3%.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15966753

As for the LibDems changing tack – perhaps the best illustration that this is not going to happen can be found in David Laws article in the Standard encouraging Osborne to stick to Plan A – and the underwhelming response that it received on LibDemVoice here http://www.libdemvoice.org/liblink-david-laws-george-osborne-must-stick-to-austerity-plan-a-26022.html

It doesn’t look that there are many LibDems left wishing to fly the flag for Keynesianism – and my guess is that it is only a question of time before Vince Cable remembers that he used be one and is then replaced by David Laws.

Paradoxical, innit? The collapse of capitalism is the perfect opportunity for the Tories to impose their (anti-)social agenda. ‘Twas ever thus. Look at Hitler.

Folowing on from the post by mary about the baton rounds training and the water cannon that is quite worrying but about the faicial recognition-why don’t people use stage makeup imaginatively.it should be possible to confuse the system quite easily using various techniques that change the proportions, shapes and sizes of faces. give yourself a more prominent chin create larger cheeks, etc
As for the stock market leap-and the liquidity injection by the central banks, there is a big rumour that these measures were enacted to save one of the big French or Italian banks going down the swanee.

I have enjoyed my day off /strike and I am wondering why we cannot arrange the simple measure of reducing our income in a more managed way by reducing working hours and giving space for training of young people and unemployed people an entry into the workplace. It would also reduce stress for everyone. I expect such an idea is just naive however.
I am not advocating that we dismiss the fraudulent behaviour of the finance industries, but at root, the issue is also, at one level, about resources being spread more thinly as large, previously disadvantaged parts of the world have developed the technical capacity to compete with the west. I think that we should be thinking about finding common cause with people else where on the planet and trying to pull these people up rather than being forced down the retrograde path of competing with the barbarisms of Chinese and Indian work practices and as advocated by the dim witted filth of the Tory party and Nulabour.
We should be seeking ways to raise the lives of others in ways that are much less dangerous than the destructive drive to the lowest point of competition released by the capitalist globalisation agenda that has grown out the fallacious philosophical positions of the last thirty odd years, with the utterly false idea that we must compete to the point of near mutual annihilation in order to evolve . The point about human nature is not that it is fixed in some feral urge for primacy, but that it is incredibly adaptable and can develop to meet almost any challenge.

[Jon/mod: Sorry Tony, off-topic]

“How long will the Lib Dems go along with it?”
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for goodness sakes the libdems are as much neo con as any group .. and they are as much friends of israel than any group
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we dont have multiple ideologies we have multiple parties with the same neo con policy.

“They Realise That Not Only is The Economic System Totally CORRUPT so Are The Politicians and All their Fucking Parties.”
Oh, I agree, Tony. Just pointing out that the champions of capitalism are still poisoning society even as their own system is writhing in its death-throes. They’re biting themselves in the butt.

Sam:
“There is no social decency in this psychopathically rapacious era, those who need political power cannot afford decency, social or otherwise. Indeed, the whole desperate debacle can be summed up, IMHO, not as an global economic crisis but, rather, as a complete catastrophe for ethics globally and personally.”
.
Yes… the parallels with the fall of Rome are striking, if you ask me. It’s as though our civilisation has run out of challenges and purpose, and is following the call of an unconscious death-wish.

The whole Coalition thing was cleverly contrived so that in the tumultuous times to come hatred of a sole leader is deflected.

Ruth, if you think the shower of lightweight power-seekers in Parliament has the wit or cohesion to plan something that complicated, I fear you are overestimating them. The coalition was a straightforward arrangement to give the Tories power and the LibDems the illusion of power. The Tories, whatever else you may say about them, have never worried about being hated. The LibDems have, collectively, never been unduly bothered by principle. (I except some of their better constituency MP’s individually).

[Jon/mod: Sorry Tony, off-topic]

Komodo,
Your contention that the “capitalists” are biting themselves in the butt, conjured up all manner of hilarious images in my mind, making it hard to concentrate.
,
Ruth has a point the day Charile Kennedy was ousted was the day the current coalition government was set up. You rightly point out the shower of the idiots, however the oligarchs organ grinders playing the tunes, is a fact that cannot be overlooked.

Hi, Fedup. And if Kennedy had been around, what then? The LibDems would have gone with Labour, and Prudence Brown would today be making very similar noises to Cameron. The oligarchs (no need to use the strikeout) would be just as happy with this. They loved Blair, who was always for sale, and Brown knows the ropes. If voting changed anything, it would be illegal…

[Jon/mod: Sorry Tony, off-topic]

Newsnight’s just finished with an interview of one of Gaddafi junior’s (saif-al) examiners. After some good questioning from Jeremy Paxman, Lord Desai (I think his name was) answered to the question “Do you think he was entitled to his PHD?” “Absolutely”. Desai said he had a two-and-a-half hour oral examination (viva) and was told to re-address it. He did and was awarded his doctorate. Desai admitted that recent events and revelations about him relying heavily on other works, and the because Gaddafi made donations to the university while correcting his thesis, disgrace has been brought on the LSE. Despite some having called his degree plagiaristic, it cannot be disputed that a respected academic has exonerated Gaddafi of cheating. This pleases me. I have no love for the Gaddafi family. I don’t even know them. What I do know is that there are some well-educated cheats and liars in this country who would like the rest of the world to think others were as unworthy as them.

Speaking of the fall of Rome, Bryan Ward-Perkins’s The Fall of Rome: And the End of Civilization is a hell of a scary book. People in the Roman Empire had become so dependent on the “global” economy that when it collapsed the standard of living in the Western provinces dropped to a level far below what it had been before the Romans conquered those provinces a few centuries earlier.

Komodo,Ruth,
Clegg and his cronies have had an unexpected ‘sweet taste’ of power with this coalition agreement.

Remember, Power corrupts … fill in the blanks.
I suspect strongly they will get their retribution in the next polling that counts.

Craig, the only solution I believe is a new fourth party who will represent real democracy and real people, the current three are following the same rainbow where there are no long term pots of gold. Discounting the bullion for the corrupt bankers I should add.

The million dollar question is how do you educate the masses?

tony0pmoc, when you stay on the planet you often make sense but your frequent trips to Mars spoil the experience.

Sorry about going off topic on the last comment, I just thought it was important.

I think Wendy’s comment about the LibDems is so apt. They are just as bad as their Conservative masters and are not going to come out of this unhappy term smelling of roses. This public-sector dispute was a unique opportunity for them to show that they do have Liberal and Democratic values. But they failed. They used to be a Liberal Party, Then they became a Liberal Democratic Party. They are now Neo-libdem-cons! If they get any more attachments nobody will know what the f..k they stand for or what they are. Or did we ever?

[Jon/mod: Sorry Tony, off-topic]

Komodo
‘Ruth, if you think the shower of lightweight power-seekers in Parliament has the wit or cohesion to plan something that complicated, I fear you are overestimating them.’

Why on earth would I think the Coalition was set up Parliament?

Komodo,
A thought experiment would be; Kennedy could have won the elections and the “unknown outcome” factor was the reason for him to get struck out. Although you are correct, in the event of a Kennedy win the outcome would have been very much heavily biased in favour of the oligarchs.
,
As for Blair, he was the trojan horse, that kept the socialists at bay whilst the “best ever” conservative prime minister proceeded to screw the poor; anyone other than the oligarch and plutocrats.
,
Anyone has any data on Blair and his oil companies in Iraq? Also that harridan Ann Clwyd who seemed to undergo a metamorphosis from a wifey, to a well heeled and clothed Millionaire, immediately after the war. Any data on her ownership of any companies in Iraqi Kurdistan?

Ruth: The whole Coalition thing was cleverly contrived so that in the tumultuous times to come hatred of a sole leader is deflected.

.
No it was not. It was set up because no one party had a majority in Parliament.
.
Hellooooo!

Author, Richard Heinberg links economic ativity, and predicted mayhem immediately following peak oil close on a decade ago.

It’s not that simple of course, but I’ve never yet heard any economist explain how you can have permanent growth within a finite system.

If some form of egalitarian capitalism could be arranged, it would still hit the buffers. Keynesian growth is subject to the same limitations as monetarist, or any othjer sort of growth. So in the short term, the real issue is social justice. In the long term, all the mainstream parties trumpet further growth as their main objective, but no matter how loud they shout, it ain’t going to happen.

Agree about the bankers – the slimy bastards should be skinned and hung from lampposts. Anybody who strives to place themselves that far above their fellow countrymen does not deserve the protection of humanity.
.
But for the pensions, you’d have to take a good look at the figures to see what is realistic. The problem is that the whole thing is a ponzi scheme with current pensions being paid with current deposits. They are not thought out along the lines of investments made and returns paid. They are set by politics, not by financial sense, and are part of the bribes paid to the electorate in order to get the slimy politicians (friends of the slimy bankers) into power. These people are borrowing from future generations in order to pay off the current voters to get themselves elected and help their friends steal even more cash. If we really want to get away from this unsustainable system, we could be truly shocked by what is actually possible and sustainable. Is it possible, with reasonable taxation, to give everybody education up to university, free and unlimited health care and then let them retire at 65 or earlier and enjoy a decent life-style (and more health care) for another 30 years? Not to mention paying for a significant percentage of the population who are structurally unemployed. In the end, for a truly sustainable system, what the average person pays in should equal what the average person gets out – or am I being stupidly simplistic? So go figure. That would be a responsible journalistic project – calculate these real numbers, see what’s possible without the black magic of politics and banking, then let’s come back and debate priorities. But maybe a little dry and unexciting to make headlines and get published?

[Jon/mod: Sorry Tony, off-topic]

“The people are not stupid”
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While I believe in “we the people”, wish to think the best of them, and hope that we will collectively work in our own best worthy interests, I’m constantly finding reason to conclude otherwise. It makes one a cynic. ‘Guest’ said above, the people will vote for one of the three main parties again. But it’s much worse than that – most people would vote exactly the same way.
.
Most people don’t have a clue, or really care much about what’s happening. They’re interested in trash-TV, the gutter-press, gadgets like the latest mobile, sweat-shop produced clothes and what the rich and famous are up to.
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Note that the _really_ rich keep a low profile, on the whole, leaving the new-money celebrities to sell their fabulous lifestyle as entertainment to the the working poor. We’re all supposed to be wanna-be millionaires now.
.
Noticed how things have changed in the past 30 years, and success is judged pretty much only in cash terms, in any field you care to name? An author’s judged by book sales, a business-person by their turnover alone. Bands by record sales, artists by the price of their works. “How successful are you?” is now far more about how much money you make from your work, than the worthiness it represents.
.
*
Craig’s post is – as it is 90% of the time – totally valid. But he’s talking about people who “get it” – they are the ones on strike, so they’re more likely to than most. It’s the majority of people that are the problem, though. They just still don’t “get it”. They’re hearing the message again and again, hammered home, that the public sector had it too good for too long, that Labour spent too much, the public sector is too big, repeat ad nauseam, and the only cure is reversing this horror by cutting back drastically on all public services. A pound spent in the public sector is after all. a hard-working, hard-pressed family-man taxpayer’s pound utterly wasted.
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That vast majority also read the gutter-press, watch trash-TV, get their news from “Hello!” etc. as mentioned. They do outsell all other publications. They are the willfully ignorant, make rods for their own backs, and enthusiastically vote against their own interests.
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This is what the 99%’ers, the Occupy Movement, is all about. But the general population just isn’t getting it. They think sticking it to the Occupy Movement is a good thing, they’ve been demonised to the point that OWS somehow epitomises all our problems!
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What’s it going to take? While we’re still mostly hung up on sports and consumerism, and the underclasses too apathetic or ground down, nothing is going to change. The transfer of wealth will continue, and we will accept it until the environment dramatically breaks down, after which not much really matters at all. But the rich and their stooges will be lavishly rewarded in the meantime.
.
.

One more quick point, if I may. Was out with the old man last night, and he came up with an interesting observation.
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Right wing policies want to grind down wages to the lowest possible level, you’ll find nearly all policies have that as their eventual goal. But there is a very low level below which we – as any sort of civilised society – cannot allow our citizens to drop below.
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So to keep up this semblance of humanity, we’ll provide a subsistence on a reasonable (but poverty-stricken) level for you to exist while you cannot earn money for yourself.
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But we want to drive wages down to the point where you can only just manage to live. Which matches the description of benefits.
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These two points are now so perilously close, that working-poor bumps along with benefit-recipient at the very bottom end of the scale. Why should someone work when they can get hobbles, lounge around and get more or less the same? We can’t let the unemployed just starve (godammit!), so what’s the solution? We certainly don’t want to raise the minimum wage – we shouldn’t have a minimum wage at all!

Why are they picking on Xstrata? It’s a mining company – it actually does something useful. It never got a public bailout. I thought they were supposed to be picking on the banks that are gambling and then being bailed out.
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Just because its boss is well paid – so what? The problem is not well run industrial companies.
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Sorry Craig, some of the people are stupid.

P Harry sees himself as ‘an expensive asset’ as he furthers his skills at killing.
.
Prince Harry finishes Army exercise in US
Prince Harry flew to the US to take part in the exercise at the start of October
.
Related Stories
Prince Harry trains in US desert
Prince Harry promoted to captain
Harry wants active service return
.
Prince Harry has returned to the UK after completing a major exercise in the US, flying Apache helicopters with the Army, St James’s Palace has said.
.
The prince spent eight weeks taking part in Exercise Crimson Eagle in California and Arizona.
.
He flew the aircraft in mountainous and desert conditions, during both day and night, as well as firing its weapons.
.
The exercise – designed to prepare pilots for action in Afghanistan – was the latest step in Harry’s training.
.
Known to his fellow soldiers as Capt Wales, the 27-year-old must undergo more training at RAF base Wattisham Station, Suffolk.
/…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15976453

Jeremy Clarkson: ‘striking public sector workers should be shot’
.
“I’d have them all shot. I would take them outside and execute them in front of their families.”
.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2011/11/30/jeremy-clarkson-striking-public-sector-workers-should-be-shot-115875-23600850/#ixzz1fEP9NhSx
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The BBC needs a cull. Though I’d prefer thugs like Clarkson were deported to a Falkland Island sheep station. He’d have the perfect audience then. Baaa Baaa Baaa!

“Why are they picking on Xstrata? It’s a mining company – it actually does something useful.”
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True. It helps subsidise the Tories. And Adam Werritty.
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http://powerbase.info/index.php/Mick_Davis
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What short memories we have, Antelope.

Andy Some words of apology for the execrable Clarkson’s remarks were gabbled at the end of the silly programme, a type of moving wallpaper from the dumbed-down BBC, followed by one even worse entitled That’s Britain that is supposed to deal with people’s pet hates and grievances – Watchdog meets That’s Life. It fails. It even has Boris’s father as one of the presenters. Last night he was doing a trivial piece in a supermarket testing reactions to a woman asking for help to get something down from a high shelf. Supposed to be a test of public goodwill. It was so excruciating it was a cue to switch off.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017sq33 See what I mean.

Creeping-feeding buttlicking servile toady department>
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/01/us-obama-campaign-israel-idUSTRE7B008N20111201
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“Vote for me, I’ll lick your kishkes…”

Komodo Who is going to rescue Antelope from the bottom of the elephant trap that you so cleverly set and into which he fell?

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I was going to respond on Xstrata’s exploitation of the planet’s resources for profit and of the effect of mining on the environment and the indigenous people. eg
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15297
Xstrata Dreaming: The Struggle of Aboriginal Australians against a Swiss Mining Giant
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HQ in Zug I see. {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xstrata}
.
Also this
Relationship with Glencore
Xstrata is also noted for its association with the commodity trader Glencore, whom media reports accuse of having entered into illegal deals with rogue states.[16] Glencore is reported to serve as a marketing partner for Xstrata.[17][18] As of 2006, Glencore leaders Willy Strothotte and Ivan Glasenberg are on the board of Xstrata, which Strothotte chairs.[19] According to The Sunday Times, Glencore controls 40% of Xstrata stock and has appointed the Xstrata CEO, Mick Davis.[17][20]

Meanwhile, across town, on a distant planet:
http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/24845/Rock_Star_Reception/

Glencore is a whole can of worms on its own.
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http://www.ocnus.net/artman2/publish/International_3/Glencore-as-Israel-s-Wild-Card.shtml
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I hadn’t realised Davis was its appointee, thanks.

Obomber’s host, the said Mr Jack Rosen has a SEVEN storey home in Manhattan.
Occupy! Occupy!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Jack_Rosen.html
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I knew I would find that link. His type just loves to boast of material wealth.

Another. Many members of his family in this set up.
{http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/01/17/jack-rosen-jewish-oligarch-and-friend-of-kleptocrats/}

“Most people don’t have a clue, or really care much about what’s happening. They’re interested in trash-TV, the gutter-press, gadgets like the latest mobile, sweat-shop produced clothes and what the rich and famous are up to …
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Noticed how things have changed in the past 30 years, and success is judged pretty much only in cash terms, in any field you care to name?”
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I put virtually all of this down to the absorbing of American “culture”. Which is driven at us through TV, films, advertising, music, etc. etc.

My avatar is nicer than your avatar. And it cost a whole lot more.

The coalition was a farce, a speed dating event were one side was bowled over rather quickly. Coalition talks usually last 5-6 weeks, in Belgium it takes that little longer.

‘The people are not stupid’, but they are politically tribal, conditioned and inept for the same reasons. Rather than ditching all three mainstream parties for getting us were we are, the mallable public clutches to straws held by smiling politicians.

far from forming another centralised party, easy to nobble by lobbyists and vested interests, what is needed are Independent minds. I have nothing against coalition politics, in most cases such arrangements would lead to a wider mandate, but a society that has been brought up, with a winner takes all, easy to manipulate and de-fraud electoral system, such coalition is no more than a fancyfull dream by those who think they are in power, the partner which resembles ‘breakfast’ to the other party.
De centralising politics into accountable smaller units that deal with their own mandate and development and have national obligations according to their mandate and international requirements, which are economically Independent and raise their own taxes, would not only make it far more obvious if one of them was nobled by lobbyists, it would also make it harder for these lobbyists to forward a corporate agenda that is not rooted locally. If companies want to sell, they should alos produce here, selling must be tied to social responsibility, companies must realise that their future is attached to how they treat voters /consumers.

To hope, in a forelorn notion of trusting parties to do as they are told, that the promises at the door will actually mean anything, is the inept bit, we just can’t be bothered, after the sixth leaflet has rained through the letterbox, from the same party, (Norwich North had 25 conservative leaflets and 300 helpers from elsewhere) voters get election rage and switch off. Amplification of the same idea has always worked for the Tories, smothering voters in leaflets does exactly that.

My avatar is faster than your avatar (0-60 in 2.6 seconds, she handles like a nubile Russian streetwalker on vodka and ether, this baby does everything but enlarge my penis) and I had it handbuilt in Italy by Enzo Ferrari’s butler.

I didn’t say Xstrata is a bunch of choirboys who share my politics. I said it’s a mining company which contributes to the economy, not a bank which messes it up and takes bailouts, and therefore not really the right target for the demonstrators.
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It’s a pity people don’t read before they respond, makes it difficult to have a meaningful discussion.

And whose economy does it contribute to, Antelope? Switzerland’s.
Granted, it isn’t a bank. Big deal.

There is no difference between all three main parties. The problem is that so called establishment (bankers, landlords etc) are the real power in this and any other country in the EU. Those in various parliaments and number 10th are just puppets. They (establishment) figured out that if they limit out choice by making us believe that we can only form a government if we choose between 3 (or more often 2) parties then they will be the real winners anyhow. They (establishment) came up with the idea of single currency so that they can increase leverage by inflating not one but 13 currencies and in the mess that followed they have been able to manipulate with currency speculations to the extend that none really knows how much Euro is worth today. Some of us (commoners) benefited from it but the real winners are yet again them (establishment).
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And again as some commented earlier if elections are tomorrow either of two main parties will send their leader to number 10.

1 December:
“Jewish envoy not loyal to UK, says Labour MP”
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/59300/jewish-envoy-not-loyal-uk-says-labour-mp
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“But the MP insisted that he was a friend of Israel and had visited the country four times, including once with his family on holiday. Asked if he understood that his remarks could be deemed antisemitic, Mr Flynn said: “I am not an antisemite.”
.
It’s like a broken record – “antisemite”

We seem to be talking at cross purposes, Komodo. I was wondering why the Occupy people, who I thought were protesting the economic harm caused by irresponsible banks, were disrupting a mining company, with the only apparent explanation being that its boss is well paid. You seem to be saying their purpose is to protest against the Swiss economy.
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Personally I have nothing against Switzerland, or any other peace-loving nation.

It has all happened before. The blueprint is as old as old can be.
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Go down the link and see for yourself the parallels of then and now, click onto any pictures/articles you come across and they will enlarge so you can read them “Swindling the nation” “More trouble brewing for the working class” “A soldier’s wife in trouble”
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyindeximages.html
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Wait until the memory dies (the last generation) and then do the same thing again, its a very profitable enterprise for those who rule us. Why should they change a winning system!, indeed why not go global, so much more profit.

“who I thought were protesting the economic harm caused by irresponsible banks”
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No, they’re protesting the whole damn system and the massive inequality.

Switzerland is a nice peace loving nation and also the place where all THOSE money are. Karimov and his family keep our (Uzbeks) money in Switzerland on their (Karimov’s) accounts. Karimov’s elder grandchild studies in private Swiss school where annual fees are 2000 times more than average earning of majority of Uzbeks.

Antelope is distressed that I challenged the economic benefit to us (which he advanced as an argument) of Xstrata, by pointing out that it is a Swiss-owned company.

Antelope evidently thinks that all the employees of the gigantic multibillion global corporation, Xstrata, come in to work with a pick and shovel. And that the profits of the company benefit them, rather than a bunch of faceless but very rich suits in a Zug office. Reality check: the company exists to own as much productive capacity as possible, and channel the profits into the accounts of people who would die after half an hour in a SA goldmine.
So, what Nuid said. Xstrata is as much a part of global capitalism as any bank.

“My avatar is faster than your avatar (0-60 in 2.6 seconds, she handles like … and I had it handbuilt in Italy by Enzo Ferrari’s butler.”
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LOL – only saw this now … can’t cap that I’m afraid.

“Unison taking urgent legal advice over “appalling” comments made by TV presenter Jeremy Clarkson about public sector strike” – tweet from SkyNews

The BBC were laying it on thick on The World at One which included details of Mervyn King’s doomladen report, an interview with Sir John Gieve ex Deputy Governor for Financial Stability of the Bank of England and an ex officio member of the Monetary Policy Committee from 2006 to 2009. Also on wasthat awful woman ex Con MP Angela Knight speaking on behalf of the bankers. Nearly half the programme was taken up with the bank stuff. Putting the frighteners on us well and truly.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15984291
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PS Gieve was Permanent Secretary at the Home Office 2001-05 under Straw, Blunkett and Clarke.
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On 31 January 2006, after Gieve had left, the UK National Audit Office published a report, Home Office: 2004-05 Resource Account,[2] which was highly critical of Home Office’s accounts during the period of Gieve’s tenure; the accompanying press release stated that:
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“Sir John Bourn, head of the National Audit Office, reported to Parliament today that the Home Office had not maintained proper financial books and records for the financial year ending 31 March 2005. Sir John Bourn therefore concluded that, because the Home Office failed to deliver its accounts for audit by the statutory timetable, and because of the fundamental nature of the problems encountered, he could not reach an opinion on the truth and fairness of the Home Office’s accounts.”
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Amazing that the BBC get him on to give us the whys and wherefores when his record on financial acuity is so poor.

Speaking of Blair being a tool of the plutocrats, I’ve wondered, ever since reading Robert Harris’s The Ghost, whether Harris — who knew Blair well from his (Harris’s) days as a journalist — meant to be telling us things about the real Blair in that novel, where the Blair-like former PM figure is somebody whose career was secretly advanced at every turn by the CIA (although in the novel it is the Blair-like figure’s wife who turns out to have been the CIA agent all along). The novel raised questions in my mind whether the heart attack that killed John Smith and opened the way for Blair to become party leader was a natural one.

I couldn’t help noticing that it was right after Roman Polanski had finished filming the movie version of that novel, now called The Ghostwriter and while he was engaged in postproduction that Switzerland, which had never shown any interest in arresting Polanski before and which was engaged in ticklish negotiations with the U.S. over bank secrecy and liability, suddenly decided to arrest him with a view to possible extradition to the U.S. (Then, after the Swiss made their deal on those bank issues with the U.S. Department of Justice, they set Polanski free.)

@nuid – glad to hear someone is responding to Clarkson’s stupid comments. He’s made a bloody packet from playing the “angry old man” and has, I think, successfully segued this schtick from an act to a genuinely selfish component of his character.
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I think from now on I will alternate Clarkson and Cowell’s smug mugs on my dartboard. It is really is difficult to work out who deserves my darts more!

The apology at the end of the One Show apparently related to something Clarkson had joked about on suicides on railway tracks.
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I saw footage on the 6 pm news of him flying off to China. What a waste of fossil fuel. Perhaps he could stay there.
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Unison have accepted his apology for his remarks.

Craig
After a rapid exchange of e mails with my MP after I watched him stumble through an interview on the BBC news I am aghast at the lack of knowledge and sheer ignorance in our exchange about the economy / pensions. After trying to engage him in debate – he was obviously relaxing in london luxury after his break into the big time – his responses were, to paraphrase, ‘ I do not agree with your analysis, someone would have had to make the cuts if it hadn’t been the Coalition’ and then ‘ We will have to agree to disagree’. Some debate! I do agree, Craig, the issues around public sector pensions may become irrelevant when the impending crash, signalled by Mervyn King in his warning of a ‘systemic’ problem in the finanacial system comes to pass. Check out Max Keiser; his analysis with Stacey Herbert on RT is always good value!

Doesn’t bode very well for Lansley’s ConDem newly demolished NHS. This outfit is scheduled to inspect 10,000 GP practices next year.
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Care regulator ‘struggled to deliver’
The commission monitors hospitals and care homes

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PM joins health regulator attack
Home care firms face inspections
Basic elderly NHS care ‘alarming’
.
The health regulator which inspects hospitals and care homes in England has “struggled” since its creation two years ago, a report says.
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The National Audit Office found the Care Quality Commission had carried out just 47% of planned reviews between October 2010 and April this year.
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The CQC took over the work of three previous regulators in 2009 and has had to implement new monitoring systems.
.
It said it had been a “challenging period” but that it was now “on track”.
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The commission is responsible for checking if hospitals and care homes meet minimum standards.
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It took over from the Healthcare Commission, the Commission for Social Care Inspection and the Mental Health Act Commission.
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/…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15985922

2 December 2011 Last updated at 09:16
.Complaints over Clarkson strike comments reach 23,000
Jeremy Clarkson made his remarks on the BBC’s The One Show
.

The BBC has received more than 23,000 complaints over Top Gear presenter Jeremy Clarkson’s remarks that striking public sector workers should be shot.
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Clarkson was censured with his comments on The One Show and trade union Unison called for him to be sacked.
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BBC Breakfast said the Corporation had received 23,478 complaints. Clarkson has since apologised.
.
Unison said it welcomed the apology and invited Clarkson to spend a day with a healthcare assistant.
.
/…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15999234

Thesis: The people aren’t stupid.
Antithesis: Stand in a newsagent for half an hour and see how many people pay good money for the ‘Sun’.

Quite Komodo. They live in hope of winning the lottery, buying a new car and house and going to Disneyland on holiday.
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BBC counting backwards on Clarkson now. Do they do that with all complaints?
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2 hours later than the link above
.
2 December 2011 Last updated at 10:16
.
Complaints over Clarkson strike comments reach 21,000
Jeremy Clarkson made his remarks on the BBC’s The One Show
.

The BBC has received more than 21,000 complaints over Top Gear presenter Jeremy Clarkson’s remarks that striking public sector workers should be shot.

/…. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15999234

I liked Paul’s comment (1 Dec above) on the limits to growth. Surely we need an economic theory that measures the efficiency with which resources (human and material) are deployed in order to achieve such goals as good health, education, housing and flourishing arts and sciences?

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One does not need to aim at Utopia (on which there would never be agreement in any case) to recognize that many people as doing jobs that are either unnecessary or bady designed and for which the rewards are wildly out of kilter with how the results of the work contribute to society. Equally, resources such as food, water and energy are used in very wasteful ways.

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The GDP of the UK and all “developed” economies could be reduced by 10% (on conventional measurements) but with better health etc for all. Some current vested interests would suffer, but they too would have plenty to eat, would be able to work productively at decent salaries and could look forward to adequate care provisions in old age.

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It would serve us far better if economists and politicians set themselves the goal of working out ways in which economic contraction – but improved deployment of resources – could produce a fairer social system and a more satisfying life for all. The idea that improvements can only come with economic growth is not just a counsel of despair – it flies in the face of all the evidence of waste and misplaced effort. I admit that lots of waste is also controversial: eg Trident, many security measures, unnecessary legislation. But a great deal of economic activity is patching symptoms with little attention to root causes (eg housing, public transport, education).

.
“Less but better” is a slogan that should appeal to genuinely free marketeers. The bicycle or car that has a lifetime of 50 years frees up other resources for better hospitals and better care of the environment. Growth kills.

@ Iain Orr
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The only thing that is missing from your points is that according to the basic principles of economic theory growth is required in order to meet demands. You cannot meet growing demands by only reducing the waste (it it possible but to only some limited extend).
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For instance one can drive a car for 50 years (like my father back in Uzbekistan) but as older car is as more energy inefficient it is and as more environmental unfriendly it is.
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But at the same time simple improvement in resources management starting from schools and all the way to Whitehall including hospitals etc could save enormous amount of cash without limiting quality of services provided. But this will lead to something that we all so much oppose – redundancies. Considering the cost of workforce in the UK one can easily acknowledge that the most efficient management of recourses that is aimed to the reduction of the cost is reduction of the workforce. That what government is trying to do.
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Also putting it simply UK and for that matter European economies are in the last 20 years are so much service oriented to that extend that service sector has been artificially inflated. We here do like to purchase goods but what we like even more is to pay for them less. So we produce them there were workforce is cheap (China, India, Malaysia). Instead we open shops where these goods can be sold, we employ driver that can deliver these goods, and we employ accountants that can count profit from sale. Basic rules of economic theory are broken. We do not produce goods but we like to be able to afford them by just servicing their production.
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We should re consider much more in our economy and for what it takes current government is not going to do it.

Uzbek; Economic theory is not something that seems to have much predictive power. Economic theorists promoted financial deregulation. Now look at the finance sector. Which is no doubt still awash with economic theorists. Our government, also in thrall to economic theorists, is continuing to remove consumer spending from the economy…which, in another economic theory, should close it down completely.
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“Growth” is not a measure of purposeful activity. If I could seduce some investors into paying me to print and then tear up copies of the first page of “Finnegan’s Wake”, that would be recorded as growth. If NHS expenditure grows in a fiscal year, it qualifies as part of the growth of the national economy.
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It would be a step forward if we could altogether stop thinking about growth and start thinking about the balance of trade in tangible items. And of the conversion of R&D into technological advantage – for us, not for US patent-collectors.
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Without a manufacturing base, and dependent on the service sector for the illusion of “growth” , we are locked into a cycle in which every new market innovation for creating money from thin air creates first a boom, and then, as its credibility collapses, a bust.

Uzbek in the UK and Komodo

You both make good points. However, one aim of a better deployment of human resources would be to reduce overall unemployment. Yes unproductive and counterproductive jobs would go in both public and private sectors, but there would also be extensive retraining for new jobs in manufacturing, energy efficiency, improved housebuilding standards, more teachers so that class sizes can be reduced – ultimately resulting in better-educated citizens with the skills we need from tree-planting to design and care of the elderly.

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Yes, we need to put a far greater effort into capitalising on our own R&D. Perhaps we need the banking system to be restructured to that some banks are geared to engage closely with manufacturing industries, developing skills that will help them steer investment towards good long-term prospects. Bankers could then be rewarded for the value that they add to rather than subtract from the economy.

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My car example was meant to be of ones with energy-efficient, low-pollution engines and long-lasting tyres, not the ones that make Uzbekistan and Cuba museums of the motor motor industry.

@ Komodo
.
Agreeing with you about economic theories and economists I shall add that there are basics of economics that are quite simple and have been foundation of human life since ever. For instance one has to either work in exchange to what he needs (money since they have been invented) or one needs to own something (land or instruments) so that he allows someone to work on/with them to produce a product that would benefit both.
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Since Washington consensus these basics have been forgotten and western economies have transformed into service economies and with the exception of few minor recessions have grown. This growth, however, did not come from production of goods and their realisation (as it used to be for millennias) but from inflating service (particularly financial) sector and creating more of so called ‘products’.
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But growth is needed in order to employ all 30+ million of British workforce. Whenever you go to the supermarket and spend lets say 1 quid to buy 2 pints of milk you benefit thousands of people. And this is called growth because if you stop buying milk all these thousands will lose their income and this will somehow be negatively reflected on your own income because it could be a case that few of these thousands are your own customers.
.
Economy is a wonderful science but horrible instrument when in hands of Bullington chaps.

@ Iain Orr
.
All what you stated sounds quite nice in theory but practical implementation will be far more problematic. For instance you stated that Britons can be re trained to work in manufacturing. But manufacturing what? Everything that can be manufactured here can be manufactured at least twice cheaper in China or India. Would you or anyone else be willing to pay twice more for a product just because it has been manufactured here? The only way would be to force you by increasing custom duties for products imported from China. BUT then your 1 quid will eventually be turned into 50p.
.
Once I read somewhere that if world’s population (all 7 billion of us) had the same standards of life like westerners there would not have been enough resources in whole world to provide such level of life. Your point about having goods for longer and not throw away goods is quite useful. But even here by doing this we will ultimately kill growth on global level and making rich Chinese poorer we will also make poor Chinese even pooper.

This advert was on BT Yahoo’s e-mail front page. What junk at silly prices. All made in China no doubt. I am sure that there is a lot of cash swilling around to buy it. NOT.
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Let the Games Begin –
Your Family’s Journey to 2012 Begins Now
http://shop.london2012.com/mascot-toys/mascot-toys,default,sc.html

yep, very like the South Sea bubble. Governments are still listening to “the markets” and “maintaining market confidence” in the pretence that the people who make up “the markets” aren’t the same set of people some of whom made up the frauds and others of whom bought them and believed they were valuable.

If a drug addict drove your car into a brick wall while trying to get more drugs, then demanded compensation from you, would you ask their advice on everything and assume that anything that made them happy was the right thing to do and anything that upset them was a mistake?

Because that’s pretty much what “listening to the markets” involved.

The markets have no interest in what’s good for the majority in the long term and don’t even know what’s for their own good, never mind anyone else’s. They do know that they want everyone else forced to pay for their mistakes and frauds forever.

Prosperity Without Growth is well worth reading – the book basically argues that
1) Increased income beyond a certain point has no benefits (economists should understand this based on ‘marginal utility’, but most don’t seem to). He provides plenty of evidence by charting GDP per capita against life expectancy, happiness etc for different countries over time

2) GDP (and GDP per capita) are faulty measures of both wealth and social well being (e.g GDP includes the costs of cleaning up oil spills as if they were income rather than costs)

3) Infinite growth is impossible in a planet with limited energy and material resources – e.g demand for oil, gas and metals is increasingly exceeding supply as China and India and others begin to fully industrialise and long before supply runs out prices will become exhorbitant

4) Poverty in the developed world is not caused by lack of economic growth (overall theres been plenty since WWII) but by unequal distribution of wealth. So the only solution to it is to redistribute wealth

5) Poverty in the developing world can be reduced by economic growth in many cases, but that would require allowing them to protect their markets as developed countries still do (and did to an even greater extent through centuries of development – also see Ha Joon Chang’s books on this) ; and if growth is carried out with no concern for environmental and health problems it may not even be beneficial e.g polluting farmland and water supplies in China has increased food costs and illnesses in China

Mary – i agree – those mascots are weird looking – especially the one eyed alien ones. Someone will have been paid a fortune to design them.

At the prices they charge for tickets i wouldn’t be going to the olympics even if i lived in London or was interested in sport.

[Mod/Jon - removed, abusive. If a discussion gets out of hand, please bow out]

What Antelope said:
“Why are they picking on Xstrata? It’s a mining company – it actually does something useful. It never got a public bailout. I thought they were supposed to be picking on the banks that are gambling and then being bailed out.
.
Just because its boss is well paid – so what? The problem is not well run industrial companies.
.
Sorry Craig, some of the people are stupid.”

.
What I was trying to point out to Antelope was that Xstrata isn’t a company that does mining. It is a company that buys and sells companies that do do mining. And part of the problem (note, Antelope, part. I don’t generalise as you do) is that this kind of company makes its money by leveraging real assets and enterprises into funny money. Like private equity firms, hedge funds and banks, it adds profit to a product without adding value. And then takes that profit.
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[Mod/Jon - partly removed, abusive. If a discussion gets out of hand, please bow out]