The Guardian Protects Gould-Werritty

by craig on December 1, 2011 10:49 am in Uncategorized

The planned scenario for a war with Iran is playing out before our eyes at frightening speed now. Unfortunately. as I have frequently said, Iran has a regime that is not only thuggish but controlled by theocratic nutters: the attack on the British Embassy played perfectly into the hands of the neo-cons. William Hague is smirking like the cat who got the cream.

The importance of the Fox-Gould-Werritty scandal is that it lifts the lid on the fact that the move to war with Iran is not a reaction to any street attack or any nuclear agency report. It is a long nurtured plan, designed to keep feeding the huge military industrial war machine that has become a huge part of the UK and US economies, and whose sucking up of trillions of dollars has contributed massively to the financial crisis, and which forms a keystone in the whole South Sea Bubble corporate finance system for servicing the ultra-rich. They need constant, regenerative war. They feed on the shattered bodies of small children.

Gould, Fox and Werritty were plotting with Israel to further war with Iran over years. The Werritty scandal was hushed up by Gus O’Donnell’s risibly meagre “investigation” – a blatant cover-up – and Fox resigned precisely to put a cap on any further digging into what they had been doing. I discovered – with a lot of determination and a modicum of effort – that Fox, Werritty and British Ambassador to Israel Matthew Gould had met many times, not the twice that Gus O’Donnell claimed, and had been in direct contact with Mossad over plans to attack Iran. Eventually the Independent published it, a fortnight after it went viral on the blogosphere.

The resignation of the Defence Secretary in a scandal is a huge political event. People still talk of the Profumo scandal 50 years later. But Fox’s resignation was forgotten by the media within a fortnight, even though it is now proven that the Gus O’Donell official investigation into the affair was a tissue of lies.

Take only these undisputed facts:

Fox Gould and Werritty met at least five times more than the twice the official investigation claims
The government refuses to say how often Gould and Werritty met without Fox
The government refuses to release the Gould-Werritty correspondence
The three met with Mossad

How can that not be a news story? I spent the most frustrating fortnight of my life trying to get a newspaper – any newspaper – to publish even these bare facts. I concentrated my efforts on the Guardian.

I sent all my research, and all the evidence for it, in numeorus emails to the Guardian, including to David Leigh, Richard Norton-Taylor, Rupert Neate and Seumas Milne. I spoke to the first three, several times. I found a complete resistance to publishing anything on all those hidden Fox/Werritty/Gould meetings, or what they tell us about neo-con links with Israel.

Why? Guardian Media Group has a relationship with an Israel investment company, Apax, but the Guardian strongly denies that this has any effect on them.

The Guardian to this day has not published the fact that there were more Fox-Gould-Werritty meetings than O’Donnell disclosed. Why?

I contacted the Guardian to tell them I intended to publish this article, and invited them to give a statement. Here it is, From David Leigh, Associate Editor:

I hope your blogpost will carry the following response in full.

1. I know nothing of any Israeli stake in the ownership of the Guardian. As it is owned by the Scott Trust, not any Israelis, your suggestion sems a bit mad.

2. The Guardian has not “refused” to publish any information supplied by you. On the contrary, I personally have been spending my time looking into it, as I told you previously. I have no idea what the attitude of others in “the Guardian” is. I form my own opinions about what is worth publishing, and don’t take dictation from others. That includes you.

3. I can’t imagine what you are hinting at in your reference to Assange. If you’ve got a conspiracy theory, why don’t you spit it out?

I can understand your frustration, Craig, when others don’t join up the dots in the same way as you. But please try not to be offensive, defamatory, or plain daft about it.

As I said, it would be honest of you to publish my response in full if you want to go ahead with these unwarranted attacks on the Guardian’s integrity.

Possible some Guardian readers will get drawn to this post: at least then they will find out that Werritty, Fox and Gould held many more meetings, hushed up by O’Donnell and hushed up by the Guardian.

It should not be forgotten that the Guardian never stopped supporting Blair and New Labour, even when he was presiding over illegal wars and the massive widening of the gap between rich and poor. My point about Assange is that he has done a great deal to undermine the neo-con war agenda – and the Guardian is subjecting him to a campaign of denigration. On the other hand Gould/Fox/Werritty were pushing a neo-con project for war – and the Guardian is actively complicit in the cover-up of their activities.

The Guardian. Whom does it serve?

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603 Comments

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  1. Between this and the Wikipedia fall out, the Guardian is in danger of losing credibility.

  2. “As I said, it would be honest of you to publish my response in full if you want to go ahead with these unwarranted attacks on the Guardian’s integrity.”
    .
    The Guardian has got “integrity”, when did this happen!!!.

  3. I should have mentioned I am fully paid up Guardianista.

  4. I am puzzled.

    According to the UK government, the BBC, and the establishment in this country:

    1. If a mob of Iranian citizens had gathered in a public place to denounce the Iranian government, and tried to break into some of its offices, and if the Iranian police had then used force to stop them – that would have been wicked oppression, and the fault of the wicked Iranian government.

    BUT

    2. If a mob of Iranian citizens gathered in a public place to denounce the British government, and tried to break into some of its offices, and if the Iranian police did NOT use force to stop them – that is wicked treachery, and the fault of the wicked Iranian government.

  5. “The Guardian. Who[m] does it serve?”

    “The Guardian” is a legal abstraction, so of course it doesn’t strictly serve anything or anyone. As for the individual people who work for it, and whose collective behaviour is really in question… of course, each of them does whatever he or she thinks will be best for their future career prospects.

    Hardly anyone who matters to an editor or journalist cares what happens to Iran, or Iranians. But many, many of the great and the good sincerely want Iran to be demonized, attacked, and plundered – if only to distract attention from their own misdeeds. (It may be that some of them have “links” to Israel, but who can tell?)

    “The art of leadership . . . consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention. . . . The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category”.

  6. “As I said, it would be honest of you to publish my response in full if you want to go ahead with these unwarranted attacks on the Guardian’s integrity.”
    .
    The Guardian has got “integrity”, when did this happen!!!.

    ==============================================================

    I think you will find that what the Guardian actually has is “intergity”.

  7. Tom

    Aah yes, “Warders are ye, whom do ye ward?”. I shall correct my grammar immediately.

  8. Tom Welsh –

    Good point.

    I am not surprised by David Leigh’s reply. What can one expect from a newspaper who accepts that mentioning America’s slavish support for Israel is anti-semitic.

    The Guardian is not a news service. It has found a nice establishment role in sanitising dissent. I have lost track of the number of times I have been deleted from CiF.

    But you know what? I am going to post this article on CiF this morning. Let’s see how long it takes for them to ban me!

  9. Great article, Mr Craig Murray.

    I am going to post this in another blog, with a link back to this website.

  10. Septimius Severus

    1 Dec, 2011 - 11:24 am

    Tony,

    ‘I should have mentioned I am fully paid up Guardianista.’

    The Graun doesn’t require you to pay for its services…. not yet anyway. But I’ve heard a ‘pay-wall’ is in the pipe line.

  11. It’s done. I posted it on the comments section of Julian Borger’s blog (UK breaks with Iran, but can anything sway the regime?) at 11:21 am today.

    Maybe this will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back and I will earn a multiple lifetime ban from the Guardian. It would be an honour.

  12. The Guardian has lost all credibility.Its constant attacks on Assange and the deleting of anything anti Israel on it CIF section just proves this point. You cannot even go on their CIF section and state well known facts the facts without being branded an anti semite.They have just joined the rightwing Israeli/American media train. Bunch of jokers.

    I was watching all the berks who work for them slagging Assagne the other day on that silly documentary on more 4, I have a feeling that the viewpoint was obvioulsy sweded in their favour as Assange had about 5 minutes talking and the guys from the Guardian were on there every two seconds giving their side of events,they left out that they released the password to those secret files in their crappy book.

  13. Regrettably, my posting went on the 3rd page of CiF meaning it’s in a forgotten corner of the debate graveyard already but let’s see how the “moderator” reacts.

  14. Maybe David Leigh was working on something to do with this and it was a long investigation. Although, if that were the case I don’t know why he wouldn’t just say to you that something was in the pipeline.
    .
    He does sound quite annoyed. Is he famous for having a short temper or did you make accusations about his professionalism?
    .
    One more thing, there does seem to be something of a dog-that-didn’t-bark question that I have. Is your story about Fox-Werrity-Gould appearing on Press TV or IRNA or FARS? I only had a cursory look through Press TV (and had a shower afterwards, of course) but I didn’t see anything there. Why not?

  15. Dear Mr Murray. do you remember Gordon Brown making a speech in parliament after the hacking revelations. he eluded to Rusbridgers deficiency in making the pm aware of Coulson’s long list of criminal acts. Cameron’s assistance did not pass these concerns on to Cameron which allowed Cameron to say he was not aware of Coulsons past bad acts.

  16. Njegos – you write: “I have lost track of the number of times I have been deleted from CiF”

    Ditto.

  17. I’ve just had a comment moderated in The Guardian. I think it was because I mentioned ‘a blog which I am not allowed to mention’ in bold. Or possibly because I copied part of Courtnay Barnett’s remarks on your previous thread.

    Or possibly because of both.

    Anyway, Comment is not Free.

  18. Septimius Severus

    1 Dec, 2011 - 11:42 am

    Ken,

    It’s been clear for a while that The Guardian has made an editorial decision to go soft on Israel. You may remember the editorial a few weeks back, wherein the readers’ editor essentially said that any comments critical of Israel are going to come in for intense scrutiny. He even said that moderators will make it their job to analyse any mentions of the word ‘Zionist’ for ‘hidden meanings’. Real couldn’t make it up stuff!

    Also, until recently there used to be almost daily CiF articles on Israel/Palestine. Now, I can’t remember when was the last time I saw one. No bad thing, IMHO, I used to be a regular commenter on those threads, but more or less gave up because of the ridiculous moderation policy and the fact that the mods were so obviously running scared of CiF Watch – even though comments naming said group would instantly be deleted, CiF Watch’s ‘editor’ would regularly come on CiF boasting of his identity.

    I can’t help thinking that the Guardian’s enthusiastic promotion of their new US edition has something to do with all this? Either way, it seems clear that the Graun has had its arm twisted big time, just like the BBC before them.

  19. Sassoon -

    It’s the fate of everyone who dares to step outside the narrow debate parameters of CiF.

  20. willyrobinson

    1 Dec, 2011 - 11:44 am

    For motivation, look instead at the Guardian US edition. They’re trying to crack the US in a big way and they’ve completely changed their coverage regarding Israel.
    .
    But they always changed their tune in the run-up to war. Someone has a word in their ear. You could almost read it as a confirmation of UK government policy.

  21. Craig, you sound surprised. In all honesty, what did you expect? The Guardian is part of the establishment.
    .
    I stopped taking the Guardian seriously, as a newspaper which reported honestly but tended to favour the left, about halfway through the Blair years.
    .
    What took me so long? I know, I’m naive.
    .
    There isn’t a newspaper I’d give my money to any more, only buy them for train journeys – I give it to MSF instead. The Telegraph is the best of a bad lot – despite it’s politics it’s at least professionally produced and still LOOKS like a newspaper.

  22. Alex Marshall

    1 Dec, 2011 - 11:45 am

    Three small points
    A war with Iran is likely to be to annex their oil reserves, so excuses are needed to invade.
    I don’t want anyone to have nuclear weapons, but why only a fuss about Iran when Israel already has illegal ones?
    The point about The Guardian, to me, is its refusal to investigate, to check out the claims. But that applies to all our print media, doesn’t it?

  23. Ok, an update:

    I have received 2 recommendations on CiF. Still not banned. The “moderator” is obviously on an extended tea-break.

  24. 1. I know nothing of any Israeli stake in the ownership of the Guardian. As it is owned by the Scott Trust, not any Israelis, your suggestion sems a bit mad.

    Is anyone suggesting that the Guardian, or the Guardian Media Group, is owned by anyone other than the Scott Trust? Not me. It is what the GMG owns, and what its sources of revenue are, that is of interest.
    To repeat (again) GMG lost £54M last year. GMG sold half its holding in Trader in 2007. GMG received a half-share in a “special” dividend from Trader Media this year. This amounted to £50M (I will correct these figures if they are wrong). The co-owner, with 49% of its shares, is Apax. They also took £50M in dividend. In total that is more than a third of Trader’s total revenue for 2011. Not profits, revenue.
    Eighteen months ago, the CFO of Trader, Andrew Miller joined the GMG board as CEO.
    .
    All this looks remarkably convenient for GMG, to say the least. My opinion (Sue, Grabbit and Runne advisory) is that Apax is propping up GMG’s failing operation via some very strange accounting in Trader.
    .
    Apax is not an Israeli company. However, one of its co-founders, and present trustee, is Sir Ronald Cohen, who has very close ties to Israel. It has very extensive Israeli interests. Some of these are indicated here:
    http://www.bdsmovement.net/2011/rotten-fruit-delivered-to-apax-partners-investor-in-israeli-agribusiness-7895#.Ttdpa4SGVvA
    .
    Disclaimer:
    Opinions and conclusions stated by me on this topic are exclusively mine without any input by Craig, or other commentators on this site.

  25. Komodo: Is anyone suggesting that the Guardian, or the Guardian Media Group, is owned by anyone other than the Scott Trust? Not me.
    .
    Presumably it is an answer to Craig Murray’s message to David Leigh. We don’t know what Craig Murray’s mail to him was that David Leigh is answering here. Are you sure he is answering you directly?

  26. As for war with Iran, I am rather hoping that statements from the Israelis recently – that they are not planning on it – will defuse tensions. (Yes, they could be lying, but what is said in public still matters).
    .
    Sadly I think a reticence at the Guardian to publish may have as much to do with the overtly antagonistic attitude evident in Leigh’s email as a fear of the lobby backlash if they publish. Mainstream left thinking has been eviscerated with the rightward shift of all the traditionally left parties in Britain (and in the US) and it’s been replaced with a “balance” that, in fact, does not achieve that lofty goal at all.
    .
    I suppose also it matters how the message is delivered to the Guardian et al too. “You’re all stooges of the military industrial complex” may not be the best way to get journos on side, as @Angry says – even if with some it is effectively true. I used to be quite a committed Graun reader, but too many MSM errors of this kind have pushed me over to the Morning Star. That’s not without its problems either, but I sense its heart is much more in the right place.
    .
    I don’t doubt that Leigh doesn’t think the ownership of the Guardian makes a difference, but if they have Israeli backers I am surprised he doesn’t know about it. Of course, he’s still annoyed over the Assange affair, and not just ‘cos they fell out. Leigh published the Wikileaks encryption password in his book, which (as Leigh later discovered) is the digital equivalent of revealing ones secret sources.

  27. One should perhaps mention the change in corporate governance of the Guardian, it is now owned by the Scott Trust Limited, a limited company. A change that happened in 2008 about the same time as it’s drift to the right and neocon cheerleading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Trust_Limited

    As a limited company it now perfectly feasbile for Israeli investment to happen and something that may or may not be significant is the appearance of Anthony Salz, an executive vice chairman of Rothschild who joined the board in 2009.

    From a cache copy of a press release
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jpR8Ro7aZo8J:www.gmgplc.co.uk/press-releases/2009/anthony-salz-joins-the-scott-trust/+apax+salz&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a

    As you scroll further down the Press Release you’ll see mention of Apax. Something that’s mysteriously disapeared from the current version.

    Anthony Salz, Executive Vice-Chairman of Rothschild, has been appointed to the Scott Trust.
    The Scott Trust is the owner of Guardian Media Group (‘GMG’). GMG’s portfolio includes the Guardian and Observer newspapers, the guardian.co.uk website, the Manchester Evening News and other local and regional newspapers, regional radio stations, Trader Media Group (publisher of the Auto Trader magazine and website), and Emap (the business-to-business media group).

    The Scott Trust was created in 1936 to secure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian in perpetuity.

    Before joining Rothschild in 2006 Anthony Salz was best known as one of the UK’s leading corporate lawyers. He spent most of his legal career with Freshfields, becoming Senior Partner in 1996. He was Vice-Chairman of the Board of Governors of the BBC from 2004 until the end of 2006.

    He is, among other things, Chair of the Eden Trust and a trustee of the Royal Opera House, the Tate Foundation, the Media Standards Trust and the Paul Hamlyn Foundation.

    Liz Forgan, Chair of the Scott Trust, said: “Anthony Salz’s wide experience of the cultural, media and corporate worlds will bring valuable strengths to the Trust. We are delighted to welcome him.”

    In October 2008 the Scott Trust became a limited company to strengthen the protection it affords to the Guardian. All trustees became directors of The Scott Trust Limited.

    (ends)

    Further information: Chris Wade 020 3353 4041

    http://www.gmgplc.co.uk/ScottTrust

    Notes for editors

    The Scott Trust was created in 1936 to protect the legacy of the long-standing editor and latterly owner of the Guardian, CP Scott: the independent, liberal journalism of his newspaper. The core purpose of the Scott Trust is “to secure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian in perpetuity”.

    The Scott Trust Limited is the sole owner of Guardian Media Group plc (‘GMG’). GMG’s portfolio comprises:
    • Guardian News & Media: the Guardian and Observer newspapers and guardian.co.uk.
    • GMG Regional Media: the Manchester Evening News and its website, and other regional newspapers in the North West and South of England.
    • GMG Radio: regional radio stations across the UK under the Real Radio, Smooth Radio and Rock Radio brands.
    • GMG Property Services: providers of software to independent estate agents.
    • Trader Media Group: one of Europe’s largest specialist print and online media companies, and publisher of the Auto Trader website and magazine. Trader Media Group is jointly owned by GMG and Apax Partners.
    • Emap: the B2B publishing, events and information business, also jointly owned by GMG and Apax Partners.

    The Trust Board is chaired by Liz Forgan and currently consists of executives within GMG, external members, a member of the Scott family and a member of Guardian News & Media’s editorial staff.

    The current directors of The Scott Trust Limited are:

    Liz Forgan (Chair)
    Larry Elliott
    Andrew Graham
    Will Hutton
    Carolyn McCall
    Geraldine Proudler
    Alan Rusbridger
    Jonathan Scott
    Maleiha Malik
    Anthony Salz

  28. doug scorgie

    1 Dec, 2011 - 12:21 pm

    See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15797257 for Israeli propaganda by the BBC.
    Also: part of an e-mail I received from the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign:
    I hope that everyone who takes the
    > Guardian will look at the double spread Northern Israeli
    > tourism ad in today’s Guardian Weekend (26 November 2011). It shows the Golan Heights as part of Israel and among other gross statements
    > it extols the ‘hidden gem’ of the Galilee and the fact that
    > ‘quaint villages have opened their doors to visitors’- they
    > don’t mean the unrecognised Bedouin villages
    > presumably. The words ‘Arab’ and ‘Palestinian’ do not appear
    > once, instead the article presents the area as the cradle of
    > Judaism and Christianity.

  29. From our beloved Guardian of Israeli sensitivity:

    “njegos
    1 December 2011 11:21AM

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.”

    And in the comments box of course:

    “Your comments are being premoderated.”

    So I lasted about an hour before the bouncers threw me out of the party.

    I hope the god-damned rag goes bust. It’s a disgrace to journalism.

  30. Septimius Severus

    1 Dec, 2011 - 12:26 pm

    Doug,

    I don’t buy the Guardian, so wouldn’t have seen that ad. If the Guardian did run it, that’s further evidence that they are now little different from the Torygraph or Times in their coverage of Israel. A shame, because until very recently they used to feature some excellent writing on Israel/Palestine, including their breaking, along with Al Jazeera, of the ‘Palestine Papers’.

    In fact, while it has long been clear that the CiF moderators were being pressured by CiF Watch et al, the dramatic turn-around in the Guardian’s coverage – or lack thereof – of I/P issues dates back only a few months. That really does make me suspect that it’s more about the Graun trying to crack the US market than the influence of Apax, though that too may be an important factor. Whatever the case, there is no doubt that the Graun simply is not worth reading on ME issues any more. Like I say, it is a shame.

  31. Septimius Severus

    1 Dec, 2011 - 12:27 pm

    Njegos,

    In fairness, I don’t think too many newspapers would allow you to use their comments’ section to openly question their credibility.

  32. Septimus –

    Perhaps but it was David Leigh who requested that Craig print the full text of his letter on his blog which he has done. So what’s sauce for the goose…….?

  33. Angry,
    As I seem to be just about the only person on this blog to make a connection between the Trader Media deals and the involvement (allegedly) of Apax in the continuing viability of the GMG, I thought it as well to clarify my conclusions, for the record, What Craig said to Leigh, of course, I don’t know. It may have been based on my comments. Which were not about ownership, but (IMO) backdoor financing by Apax. As I hope I have now made clear.
    .

  34. “I don’t think too many newspapers would allow you to use their comments’ section to openly question their credibility.”
    .
    They do in the United States. Sorry I can’t quote specific examples, but I’ve seen hundreds of them online. Vicious attacks. In the USA free speech really does mean that. (Until they designate you a ‘terrorist’ of course, in which case you lose all rights under that marvellous US constitution.)

  35. Re. the Iranian mob that recently attacked the British embassy. I think it is worthwhile to note that in the 1953 CIA/MI6 organized coup which overthrew the democratically elected Iranian PM Mohammed Musaddiq, rabble rousers and street mobs financed and organized by the coup plotters played a significant role.

    Excerpt below from an article published in Lobster Magazine:

    A “Great Venture”: Overthrowing the Government of Iran

    by Mark Curtis

    SNIP

    According to then CIA officer Richard Cottam, ‘that mob that came into north Tehran and was decisive in the overthrow was a mercenary mob. It had no ideology. That mob was paid for by American dollars.’ (59) One key aspect of the plot was to portray the demonstrating mobs as supporters of the Communist Party – Tudeh – in order to provide a suitable pretext for the coup and the assumption of control by the Shah. Cottam observes that agents working on behalf of the British ‘saw the opportunity and sent the people we had under our control into the streets to act as if they were Tudeh. They were more than just provocateurs, they were shock troops, who acted as if they were Tudeh people throwing rocks at mosques and priests’. (60) ‘The purpose’, Brian Lapping explains, ‘was to frighten the majority of Iranians into believing that a victory for Mussadeq would be a victory for the Tudeh, the Soviet Union and irreligion’. (61)

    http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/articles/l30iran.htm

  36. doug scorgie

    1 Dec, 2011 - 12:42 pm

    The thick plottens
    German prosecutors have opened an inquiry into allegations of an Iranian plot to attack U.S. bases on German soil, prosecutor-general Harald Range confirmed in Karlsruhe on Thursday.
    He was referring to a report in the mass-circulation newspaper Bild that a German businessman was suspected of espionage for the purpose of sabotage. He was alleged to have secretly met with Iranian diplomats posted to Berlin, the newspaper said.
    Full story: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/germany-probing-alleged-iran-plot-to-attack-u-s-bases-on-its-soil-1.398987

  37. Septimius Severus

    1 Dec, 2011 - 12:46 pm

    nuid

    ‘They do in the United States. Sorry I can’t quote specific examples, but I’ve seen hundreds of them online. Vicious attacks. In the USA free speech really does mean that. (Until they designate you a ‘terrorist’ of course, in which case you lose all rights under that marvellous US constitution.)’

    Or an ‘anti-Zionist’.

    Seriously though, if you openly call into question a paper’s credibility, and criticise one of their journalists by name – on their own website – you can expect your comments to be deleted. As I’ve said above, I’m critical of the Graun in many ways, but I don’t think any newspaper would react differently in this case.

  38. “If you’ve got a conspiracy theory, why don’t you spit it out?”

    This is the modern Holocaust denial: meant as an absolute show stopper.

    Don’t fall for it.

  39. So the Guardian does not publish a story because it doesn’t like the person sourcing it? And it deletes links to that story? And all comments on that story?
    If that is freedom of the press I am an iguana.

  40. Septimus –

    To me it’s obvious that the Guardian is hiding behind ‘attacks on its credibility’. The article above does not critise David Leigh. It simply asks for answers. If I say I wrote to such-and-such and got no reply, is that criticism or a statement of fact? The hyper-sensitivity of the Guardian on this issue is very suspicious especially after they spiked the Gould/Werrity/Fox article (remember it was taken down from their website). If this is David Leigh’s attitude to news, then he is no better than Alistair Campbell.

    Would the Guardian have deleted my post if I had just posted the link to this article instead of putting up the full text? Would you have approved of that?

  41. Oh, f*ck, moment:
    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/59300/jewish-envoy-not-loyal-uk-says-labour-mp
    .
    Invites a contribution from the (20′s?) cartoonist HM Bateman: (scene of mass panic among parliamentarians and civil servants) “The Man Who Called A Zionist A Zionist”

  42. Septimus –

    My error. I meant to say:

    It simply asks for answers. If I say I wrote to such-and-such and encountered resistance, is that criticism or a statement of fact?

    I don’t think it changes the gist of my argument.

  43. There are 100′s ? thousands of illuminated people that read this site. Each of them is capable of influencing 2-3 people, who – in turn – can influence many more. Can I suggest a Guardian boycott, both paper and on-line, until they come to their senses and return to their roots? This would be a true indication of blog power without much effort from anyone.

  44. Testing

  45. Sorry. The testing was because my last comment was rejected under my gmail.com address. It worked on the test so just paranoia on my part.

  46. Edwin -

    Where do I sign up?

    Komodo –

    It’s the death of common sense. Appointing a Zionist as ambassador to Israeli would have been considered lunacy a generation ago. But we have gone all trans-atlantic, haven’t we? Dennis Ross, a Jew, was the leading American ‘negotiator’ in the Middle East for many years. It’s not that a Jew can’t represent America or Britain but that we don’t even care whether we look biassed to the rest of the world. When America bangs it head, we scream OW!! That sums up our diplomacy in the ME.

  47. Septimius Severus

    1 Dec, 2011 - 1:26 pm

    njegos

    ‘Would the Guardian have deleted my post if I had just posted the link to this article instead of putting up the full text? Would you have approved of that?’

    It’s not a question of approval or disapproval. It’s just that I don’t see the Gruan’s action in this particular instance as being unreasonable or unexpected. You were posting private emails from employees of the Guardian, wherein their editorial policies were discussed. Of course they are going to delete them – any newspaper would do the same.

    I’m not saying this is a good thing, but I do think it’s a bit naive of you to think that your comments would be left in situ, by the Graun or any other newspaper.

  48. Komodo, I posted that Jewish Chronicle thing on the previous thread (didn’t know this thread was here at the time) and this paragraph made me laugh out loud (literally):
    .
    “But the MP insisted that he was a friend of Israel and had visited the country four times, including once with his family on holiday. Asked if he understood that his remarks could be deemed antisemitic, Mr Flynn said: “I am not an antisemite.”
    .
    How is it antisemitic to suggest that an Ambassador may have dual loyalties, or worse, only one loyalty and it’s not to Britain? It’s got to the stage that when I see the accusation “antisemitic” I’m likely to laugh first and think about it later. “Antisemitic” is a worn out, debased, useless piece of blackmail, in my book.

  49. I have already started a boycott of The Guardian, having noticed a rightward shift and an increasing amount of meaningless churnalism. On the subject of Iran, I’ve never been there but get the impression that compared to many other countries in that region it is a beacon of stability and moderation. In his book “The New Great Game” by Lutz Kleveman it is noted that during his travels around the oil producing countries around the Caspian Sea, Iran was the only country he was able to travel freely without being followed or harrassed. Since the Islamic revolution the lot of ordinary people has improved with a big increase in literacy and life expectancy. Iran is often called undemocratic, but no more so than the UK or USA. They can choose between two factions just like us. If Iran is not developing nuclear weapons they have been a bit remiss, after all when was the last time the USA attacked a nuclear power?

  50. Particular thanks to Avenir for pointing out the Scott Trust’s reinvention as a limited company in 2008, and the appointment of Anthony Salz. Who previously spent 31 years in Freshfields, which afte 2000 became mega-lawyer Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer. Which is currently GMG’s solicitor. What a coincidence.
    .
    Anyway, here’s the statement for 2011. Looks a bit iffy to me, despite the £50m investment/divestment entry.
    .
    http://www.gmgplc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ST_AR_1011.pdf

  51. Couldn’t agree more Nuid. If they keep pushing being anti-apartheid Israel,and pro-Semitic Palestinian as being antisemitic, then it is time for some T-shirts: ‘Proud to be Anti-Semitic’.

  52. Septimius Severus

    1 Dec, 2011 - 1:35 pm

    ‘How is it antisemitic to suggest that an Ambassador may have dual loyalties, or worse, only one loyalty and it’s not to Britain?’

    If Britain were to appoint an ambassador to Tehran (assuming they had an ambassador there) who was a Shia Muslim and openly voiced his support for Clerical rule in Iran, would eyebrows be raised?

    I think they would, and should be. Ditto it’s entirely reasonable to question the wisdom of sending a Jewish Zionist ambassador to Tel Aviv. Ambassadors are supposed to represent Britain’s interests, not those of the country they’re sent to.

  53. Edwin, I did this morning, cancelled my newspaper, and for sure will not go near their site.. Sadly Guardian also has been bought.. and they will lose the buyers such as you and I . whether that will bring them to their senses, I very much doubt it, I believe they have no choice in the matter any longer.

  54. I pointed this out on CMEC’s site, Septimius…A devout Shi’a with links to Hizb’ullah could have engaged with the Iranian government, spared us the nastiness at the Embassy and even now be promoting trade and research links (Iranians are cracking at research) full time, between mentoring vists by Conservative Friends of Iran.
    Flying halal pigs! Duck!…

  55. Septimus -

    “You were posting private emails from employees of the Guardian, wherein their editorial policies were discussed. Of course they are going to delete them – any newspaper would do the same”

    David Leigh says to Craig –

    “I hope your blogpost will carry the following response in full….”

    I don’t think privacy is the issue here, do you?

  56. Septimius Severus

    1 Dec, 2011 - 1:54 pm

    njegos

    ‘I don’t think privacy is the issue here, do you?’

    It’s not the whole issue, but the fact is that you were sharing private correspondence from a Guardian employee on the Guardian’s own website, following an article which had very little to do with your comments.

    I don’t think there’s much point continuing this discussion – I just don’t think it was unreasonable of the Graun to delete your comments, and any newspaper would have done the same.

  57. I haven’t bought a paper newspaper for over a year, and I feel much better for it. It has saved me a good deal of money, and – more important – a lot of valuable time. For far more years than I should have, I went on reading The Times (through sheer inertia and because I thought it useful to hone my tolerance by reading the clueless views of David Aaronovitch and others).

    Nowadays about the only time I ever read a paper is when I’m in Caffe Nero – which provides some free copies of the Times, Guardian, Daily Mail, etc. I grab The Times or The Guardian as I order my drink, and see if I can finish scanning it by the time I’m served. Usually I can, because there is literally not one single article worth reading. Occasionally, I continue for the time it takes to absorb a large skinny mocha or a hot chocolate – maybe there’s a piece by Matthew Parris or someone else who has respect for facts, logic, and the reader’s intelligence. But not very often.

  58. ‘‘I don’t think privacy is the issue here, do you?’

    It’s not the whole issue, but the fact is that you were sharing private correspondence from a Guardian employee on the Guardian’s own website, following an article which had very little to do with your comments.’

    “Private” correspondence? Meaning a letter in which the writer explicitly invited Craig to publish it on his blog??? Come on, let’s not be silly. Published is published – if Craig was allowed (indeed, urged) to publish it on his blog, then publishing it on The Grauniad’s Web site would make no difference.

    ‘I don’t think there’s much point continuing this discussion’

    Damn straight. Your “argument” is utterly ludicrous.

  59. @Tom Welsh.

    Nice, accurate description, and very true. I entirely gave up reading newspapers about three years ago, and watching television (other than cricket) about 2 years ago. And now I feel much more informed. I still scan the headlines of the major dailies on-line to see the theme/lie de jour but otherwise I gain my unfiltered news from a range of online sources. It takes much more time but the comments in blogs such as this (and valuable links provided by Mary, Komodo and many others) make it easier and more enjoyable.

  60. It is sad to see people like Monbiot and Milne turned into red coats. The Guardian is not only loosing thousands/day in revenues, it is also fritting up like a clogged drain, their bias automatically steering away from issues that matter in a wider context, narrowing their focus to a fine squint.
    One day they will land in a big fat hole for not opening their eyes, many like myslef shall from now on campaing against their sad front, maybe one day a new Guardian will shine through the misery that is current dictating their output.

  61. Dug Scorgie Read the Gaardian’s mealy mouthed responses to the complaints about the Israeli spread last weekend which contained inaccuracies.
    .
    Jews for Justice for Palestine website.
    .
    http://jfjfp.com/?p=26947
    Israel’s Ministry of Tourism causes ‘systems breakdown’ at Guardian
    .
    For an account of the story see the posting Israel’s Ministry of Tourism incorporates all occupied territory, including Gaza, in its maps.

  62. o/t but relevant to Israel/Palestine
    .

    Editor’s note: The possibility of all Palestinians having a vote in who
    gets elected to the Palestinian National Council is a very exciting
    development and is a real chance for Palestinians in the Diaspora and the
    refugee camps to join with Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, East
    Jerusalem and Gaza as a unified society “to affirm and advance Palestinian
    rights, end internal division, restore and strengthen [the] national
    liberation movement, and reactivate the PLO on a democratic basis so that it
    can represent the will of the entire Palestinian people.”
    .
    Please bring this to the attention of every Palestinian you know. The
    process is inclusive and unifies Palestinian civil society – so long
    disenfranchised and fractured – and brings the power back to the people to
    decide how they would like to be represented in their struggle for freedom,
    justice, peace and dignity. It is the responsibility of every Palestinian
    to keep their ancient heritage and culture alive for the honour of those who
    have already given their lives and for those who continue to suffer.
    .
    Sonja Karkar
    Editor
    http://australiansforpalestine.com
    .

    Civic Registration for Direct Elections to the PNC
    .

    Welcome to {PalestiniansRegister.org}, the website of the civic registration
    drive for elections to the Palestinian National Council (PNC), the supreme
    legislative body of the PLO. Only 40 percent of the Palestinian people who
    are eligible to vote are currently registered. This website provides
    information and tools for the remaining 60 percent of Palestinians, in order
    that they can register themselves for elections in all locations where
    Palestinians currently remain unregistered. It explains how Palestinian
    civil society can assist in registering those who have never had a chance to
    vote in national democratic elections.
    .
    /…

  63. Komodo: Angry,
    As I seem to be just about the only person on this blog to make a connection between the Trader Media deals and the involvement (allegedly) of Apax in the continuing viability of the GMG, I thought it as well to clarify my conclusions, for the record, What Craig said to Leigh, of course, I don’t know. It may have been based on my comments. Which were not about ownership, but (IMO) backdoor financing by Apax. As I hope I have now made clear.

    .
    Yes, fair enough, but David Leigh seems to be replying directly to Craig Murray so maybe Mr Murray will publish the email that Mr Leigh is responding to. At the moment we have a somewhat bad-tempered email from Mr Leigh saying that he is annoyed with certain accusations being made to him and those accusations are clearly:
    .
    1) that he is influenced by Israeli stake-holders at the Guardian, and knowingly so!
    2) that he has either ignored or covered up Mr Murray’s correspondence and evidence, presumably because he is in the pocket of said Israelis!
    3) that he has deliberately sought to have something horrible happen to Julian Assange/”thrown him under the bus”/been in league with neo-cons but presumably Mr Murray’s wording was rather coy and suggestive.
    .
    I wonder if Mr Murray would be kind enough to show us the correspondence that Mr Leigh is responding to or whether one of us could lodge and FOIA request because there are some questions that a real democracy should see asked, namely:
    .
    1) Just what kind of relationship with the Israelis did Mr Murray suggest existed?
    2) Just what kind of demands were made of David Leigh regarding Mr Murray’s information?
    3) Just what was Mr Murray suggesting is David Leigh responsible for re: Julian Assange?
    .
    Now please remember, I’m just asking questions.

  64. Stephen Morgan

    1 Dec, 2011 - 2:33 pm

    I never miss an opportunity to recomend this:
    http://neo-jacobins.blogspot.com/2007/09/neo-jacobin-special-against-guardian.html

    “A neo-Jacobin special essay – 50,000 editions of the imperialist, warmongering, hate-filled Guardian newspaper

  65. I see JFJFP have carried these articles on Gould Werrity
    .
    Craig Murray follows the plot on Iran
    Craig Murray, former ambassador to Uzbekistan, was pressed to resign from the FCO in 2005. Since then he has blogged on the secretive side of foreign policy. Here he tracks links between Fox , Werritty and Matthew Gould, ambassador to Israel and that alternative foreign policy on Iran. It should go without saying for JfJfP website readers that being Jewish does not signify being for, or against, Israel, Report from Daily Mail first.

    November 16th, 2011 | Tags: Fox, Gus O’Donnell, iran, MI6, Werritty | Category: News |
    .
    Follow the money: Fox’s friend’s fund-raisers
    Regular visitors to this website may have noticed the regular appearances of BICOM – and of Liam Fox at their We Believe in Israel conference last June. Why Liam Fox and his side-kick Werritty should have needed extra funding to promote the interests of Israel and military effectiveness is mysterious – except that (item 6) Mr. Fox supported a 2-state solution and criticised the settlements and supported peace with the Palestinians, see post above

    October 14th, 2011 | Tags: 2-state solution, Adam Werritty, Atlantic bridge, BICOM, Liam fox, Poju Zabludowicz, settlements | Category: Analysis |
    .
    and the Brian Brady article in the Independent on Sunday
    .
    The odd couple, Mossad and our man in Israel

    Liam Fox, Adam Werritty, and the curious case of Our Man in Tel Aviv

    This odd trio met six times – not that the Government wants you to know that, of course. What did they discuss? Did it include Iran? And who exactly is Adam Werritty? Brian Brady investigates a Whitehall mystery which is slowly unravelling

    Brian Brady, Independent on Sunday
    27.11.11

  66. Sorry for typo in your name Doug Scorgie and misspelling Guardian.

  67. Tom Welsh –

    Excellent. Thank you.

  68. Has that Guardian journalist apologised for publishing the password to the Wikileaks cable cache yet?

  69. All this shows is that it’s absolutely crucial to set up a newspaper online to deal in depth with issues such as these. The newspaper would draw in sources globally.

  70. Sort of O-T but while Clarkson is in the news:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0i0RXMvzMs

  71. Alan Arsebridger

    1 Dec, 2011 - 3:03 pm

    The Guardian. Whom does it serve?
    .
    It serves war.

  72. @Pete – no, he hasn’t. To be fair, I don’t think Assange comes out of that debacle looking angelic, since he should have encrypted that copy of the cache with a unique password. I think it was more oversight than laziness on his part, but it would have hugely limited the capacity for damage.

  73. Ruth the whole internet is a newspaper to us, depending on the value of what one digs ugs up, it will be published. Why duplicate was is plainly visible, popular blogs making money from ‘sponsors’, dependencies one should avoid form the start unless you are crucially ethical in considering who can advertise with you.

    The moment you start thinking online newspaper you are inviting a massive bureaucracy, accountants, writers,etc. you become a fully fledged company with all its statutory needs, an employer perse, it would take some independent thinking away which is currently our strong point,imho.

    It would have to be set up by a dedicated bunch with prior knowledge of setting up media outlets and ideally specialise on the issues that are currently left hidden and obscured by the MSM. The spectre of Wikileaks being blackmailed by a conspiracy of banks does not fill me with confidence.
    There are many hurdles to consider before taking such a lifechanging stressfull step, would you not think so?

  74. Article by Robert Fisk, “What makes Iranians hate Britain”,

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/213238.html

  75. Whores will have their trinkets.
    Nice to know there’s at least ONE journalist left on Planet Earth.

    http://www.johnpilger.com/articles/once-again-war-is-prime-time-and-journalism-s-role-is-taboo

  76. alan campbell

    1 Dec, 2011 - 3:42 pm

    Iran does itself no favours. A plague on both their houses.

  77. Azra, that is not actually a Fisk article for Press TV (not even he would sink that low) but rather a regular propaganda piece by Press TV in which they have excerpted bits of his article from the Independent. Just one thing that makes the Press TV thingy bizarre is its subtitle:
    The United Kingdom has a history of adopting hostile measures against Iran, which is why the Iranian nation hates the British monarchy, an English journalist says.
    .
    This is why the Iranian nation hates the British monarchy? Fisk said nothing about the monarchy at all.

  78. Here’s Gould addressing RSY-Netzer>
    http://blog.onevoicemovement.org/one_voice/ovi/page/2/
    (scroll down to Aug 18, 2011)
    But, you may say:
    ‘”We didn’t want to only define the issues, but also present the different approaches and views,” said Danny, OVI’s Youth leadership Program coordinator. “The students rejected any use of violence to resolve conflicts and acknowledged the Palestinian right for a state.’
    .
    Specifics are as usual absent. The state they have in mind is probably in Jordan or Egypt. RSY describes itself as the “Zionist Youth Miovement for Reform Judaism.

  79. Perfectly understandable that Iranians, lacking a Shi’a British Ambassador who can explain things in their own terms, should believe that, say, Ministers of the Crown should have something to do with the monarchy. If you’re nitpicking subheads, Angry, expect some retaliation on JPost pieces…

    I liked this point, though:
    “….Mossadegh was arrested – by an officer assiduously done to death in the 1979 revolution – and the young Shah returned in triumph to impose his rule, reinforced by his faithful SAVAK secret police whose torture of women regime opponents was duly filmed and – according to the great Egyptian journalist Mohamed Hassanein Heikal – circulated by CIA officers to America’s allies around the world as a “teaching” manual. How dare the Iranians remember all this?”
    .
    Now that is from the original Fisk piece.

  80. Yep, this bit might be interesting too:
    Anyway, the Iranians trashed us yesterday and made off, we are told, with a clutch of UK embassy documents. I cannot wait to read their contents. For be sure, they will soon be revealed.


    .
    And why would you be nitpicking JPost articles? :S

  81. Jon
    Sure, Assange could have done things differently. But the discussion here is of the Guardian. They need to apologise. If Assange had known the sort of people they were he would most likely not have had anything to do with them in the first place.

  82. Archie Taylor

    1 Dec, 2011 - 4:36 pm

    “Iran does itself no favours. A plague on both their houses.”
    ,
    Yeah they should just take it by snivelling, cowering, and begging for “forgiveness”! Never mind the constant streams of threats, unilateral, and arbitrary sanctions, constant harassment, and killing of their scientists. Indeed plague on them for not taking shit, and moreover, dishing out some street justice.
    ,
    The hysteria of antisemtie, antisemite directed at Paul Flynn is sickening. What happened to sovereignty, and independence of nations?

  83. Anybody remember how the Guardian failed to protect Sarah Tisdall who leaked documents regarding the arrival of cruise missiles? Nothing changes much. It still has its dark side. There are some competent journalists at the Guardian, but the newspaper, in severe financial difficulties, is on its way out. Those who tried posting comments on the Guardian’s pages regarding Werritty, Gould, Fox and a secret plan to wage war on Iran were systematically removed. David Leigh might have no idea what the opinions of his co-hacks at the Guardian are (what a strange admission?) but everybody who reads this blog is sure that they are all singing from the same hymn-sheet. If David Leigh does not take dictation from others, and he is planning to publish about the other meetings, he is the only one on the paper. That augurs badly for circulation figures.

  84. Ingo we may consider ourselves as purveyors of the truth via the internet and blogs, but not the Master of the Rolls, Lord Newberger of Abbotsbury f=giving evidence to a joint committee the other day.
    .
    Q529
    Lord Janvrin: You will have seen from some of the earlier evidence sessions a certain amount of discussion about bloggers and tweeters. Could you reflect on whether this should affect our deliberations on, say, trying to define privacy or public interest, or how we ought to take this into account. Or do you see it simply as a matter of the practical application of the law, and therefore a different order of question?
    Mr Justice Tugendhat: We certainly cannot ignore it. The world is as it is. One of the reasons I am hesitant about the way the law has developed out of confidentiality is that it gives people the impression that privacy is about secrecy. Sometimes it is, for example the identity of a former employee of the intelligence services; either the name is known or it is not. But in most personal privacy cases, while they have an element of secrecy in them, the main element has nothing to do with secrecy; it is harassment or taunting, as I sometimes prefer to call it. For example, it is not in the least private that somebody is of a particular ethnic origin, but if every time their name is referred to their ethnic origin is added there comes a point at which a message is being conveyed and at a certain point it is unlawful. It may be harassment or something else; it may be discrimination. The bloggers and tweeters who tweet what idiots we judges are think, I assume, that what we are concerned to do is to
    .
    27
    stop disclosure of a secret, and they are saying, “Ha, ha, you can’t keep it secret.” But if what we are attempting to do is something quite different, which is to stop harassment, intrusion and taunting, then all that the bloggers and tweeters are doing is demonstrating to us how necessary it is to keep the order in force. There is a difference between the blogosphere and other media. The two main differences are that people take more seriously something that has passed through the editorial department of an established newspaper; it carries more weight. You are more likely to think there is, or may be, something in it if it comes from an established news organisation, whereas you may dismiss anything on the blogosphere as being impossible to verify and of little value.
    .
    There is also the question of whether or not something is ephemeral. Nowadays, in a newspaper most organisations have archives which appear to be everlasting, so once you get your name in the BBC or The Guardian it is unlikely that it will ever be removed, whereas something in a tweet or blog is much less likely to be everlasting. There are claimants who are well aware that, if an injunction is granted, it will not stop people disclosing or discussing the information on the internet, but nevertheless they wish to stop it getting into a publication which carries some degree of weight.
    .

    We were being disparaged. We have no weight in his eyes.

  85. Correction…. Master of the Rolls, Lord Neuberger of Abbotsbury giving evidence to a joint committee the other…..
    .
    Link http://www.parliament.uk/documents/joint-committees/Privacy_and_Injunctions/ucJCPI211111ev6.pdf

  86. Sorry, off-topic: For long hours Bradley Manning has been kept naked in appalling conditions in a US prison and has been denied access from the United Nations special rapporteur on torture Juan Méndez. 50 MEPs have written an open letter to Obama and the Senate.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/29/bradley-manning-mep-open-letter?newsfeed=true

    On 13 December at 2 p.m. there will be a vigil outside the US embassy in London.

  87. @Pete – no, I think he’d still have worked with them. In fact, as an evidently highly intelligent individual, I suspect Assange decided to hold his nose whilst working with the MSM even before they fell out. He can’t possibly have been unaware of the structural flaws of the corporate media, but they were necessary to lift the story outside of the blogosphere.
    .
    My criticisms of Assange are not intended to suggest I don’t support him – I do. I think he’s done a lot for transparency already, and I hope he does more. (Also: major hat tip to all the people who do work for Wikileaks and don’t get credited)!

  88. @Latin – I don’t particularly subscribe to the ‘dictation’ theory, in the main. Sure, there are directions from UK security services from time to time (“D Notices”) but even the MSM would squeal if they were used too frequently. Even the Telegraph would jump up and down, and it is often said (tongue in cheek, of course) that its primary audience is retired colonels.
    .
    I think the biases are psychological and subconscious, and perhaps in this case they are the self-censorship that comes from not wishing to be “too radical”. Might scare aware the wealthy middle-class moderately-left readership.

  89. Assange probably got turned years ago and is playing his role to perfection as a warning to any others who might be tempted to whistleblow.

    What did he really reveal? Tittle tattle largely.Nothing of earth shattering proportions IMO.

  90. EU adopts new sanctions against Iran and Syria
    Sanctions against Syria, over its crackdown against protesters, set to be wide-ranging; actions against Iran could include controversial oil embargo; U.S. says would support sanctions on Iran central bank.
    .
    By DPA and Reuters
    .
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/eu-adopts-new-sanctions-against-iran-and-syria-1.399008
    .
    Brown’s appointee and stooge Baroness Ashton read out a statement expressing the EU’s outrage at the attack on the British embassy in Tehran, etc etc.

  91. I really messed up on that quote from the Joint Committee on Privacy. The quote I put up was from Mr Justice Tugenhat. This is the one from Lord Neuberger.
    .
    Q533
    Mr Bradshaw: What about the deterrent effect? We heard from bloggers that basically they do not care what the law says; they will just blog whatever they want. As far as I am aware, none of them has ever been served with a contempt of court.
    .
    Mr Justice Tugendhat: In my experience, claimants are not usually particularly troubled about restraining what is said in the blogosphere or in tweets. Obviously, they do not like it, but they are mainly concerned with stopping things getting into a source that carries weight.
    .
    Lord Neuberger of Abbotsbury: I should like to make three points in response. First, to pick up Lord Janvrin’s point, we are in a state of flux and change in terms of communications, and where we are now may be very different from where we will be in 10 years. At the moment, the differences between the blogosphere, and newspapers and more established media are entirely as Mr Justice Tugendhat has described.
    Second, many of the hosting companies and servers insist on people who have web pages or whatever agreeing in their terms that, if the host is required by a court order to reveal the identity or company who is putting up the web or blog, they will do so. My understanding is that, whenever they have been required to do so by an English court—it is not very frequent—they have done so. In that sense, they are chaseable to an extent. I am sure there will be some companies in countries where our writs do not run, so that may not be a complete answer.
    The third point is to illustrate the relative unreliability at the moment of the blogosphere. On a couple of occasions when I have been involved in upholding injunctions in favour of erring individuals—footballers as it happens—I have gone on to the blog to see to what extent the information is out there. I think that on each occasion there were different blogs confidently identifying a total of 11 different footballers as the actual person concerned. Although they do not like us, I think that in many ways the newspapers to some extent have the legislators and judiciary to thank for their reputation for reliability. Much as they do not like it in individual cases, the law tends to keep them relatively accurate and, in so doing, we help to ensure that they maintain their reputation. The less policing there is, as we see on the blog, the less reliable the information and, consequently, the less influential the blogosphere is, but, as Lord Janvrin’s question shows, that may change over the next 10 or 20 years.
    .
    You can read on at page 29
    http://www.parliament.uk/documents/joint-committees/Privacy_and_Injunctions/ucJCPI211111ev6.pdf

  92. “The Guardian. Whom does it serve?”
    .
    Im confused, everyone knows the bottom line for the Guardian is pro NeoCon .. it has always been so in recent years.

  93. The corruption table of the world,apparently.
    Who’s to say,of course,that the compilers didn’t take huge backhanders to fiddle the results though?
    Uzbekistan in a relegation dogfight…
    .

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/dec/01/corruption-index-2011-transparency-international

  94. “Assange probably got turned years ago and is playing his role to perfection as a warning to any others who might be tempted to whistleblow.
    .
    What did he really reveal? Tittle tattle largely.Nothing of earth shattering proportions IMO.”
    .
    Yeah, I’ve wondered about this. It would make sense for our Masters to deflect the attention of the politically curious to a source purveying nothing but harmless gossip. You know… “Oh, if that’s the worst they’re up to then I can forget all this stuff and sleep at night.” If people think Assange has all the dirt, they’re not going to look any further.
    .
    I may be wrong, it’s just something that occurred to me.
    .
    (Incidentally, everybody talks about Wikileaks but does anyone actually read it?)

  95. O T but

    Anybody clock page 65 of tonights London Evening Standard with an incredibly pro Alistair Campbell missive from Journo JOHN LLOYD – ex counter culture TIME OUT’s “NIGEL FOUNTAIN” and now also a senior PROFESSOR OF JOURNALISM who also scribes for the FINANCIAL TIMES. Sickening plus. Some fountain eh? Keep well clear and bath well afterwards.

  96. @ Franz
    .
    “(Incidentally, everybody talks about Wikileaks but does anyone actually read it?)”
    .
    Nope,not me.All the donkey work seems to be left to certain journalists which in itself is another filtering process.Who’s to say those journalists aren’t the steerers?

  97. “The Guardian. Whom does it serve?”

    The fact is that so much of the MSM has been penetrated by the intelligence agencies, or is just plain scared of them.

    In British Journalism Review Vol. 11, No. 2, 2000, Mr. David Leigh himself wrote – “journalists are being manipulated by the secret intelligence agencies, and I think we ought to try and put a stop to it.”

  98. If the Guardian had any integrity, the way to remove it is for the Zionists to buy a small share in it.
    Simple.
    And the guardian is a business, and businesses are in the business of making money.
    When it comes to newspapers the way to make money is by getting stories.
    The way to get stories is by having sources.
    So they choose to keep the Zionists sweet, because they can get a lot more stories from them then they can get from you.

  99. “I have already started a boycott of The Guardian, having noticed a rightward shift and an increasing amount of meaningless churnalism.”
    .
    interestingly the Pakistan government has blocked BBC/CNN and other anti Pakistan organisations from broadcasting via cable .. they have no recommended to replace with RTTV.
    .
    .
    “Brown’s appointee and stooge Baroness Ashton read out a statement expressing the EU’s outrage at the attack on the British embassy in Tehran, etc etc.”
    .
    Cant stand the woman, Im wondering who the organ grinder is.
    .
    .
    “Azra, that is not actually a Fisk article for Press TV (not even he would sink that low) but rather a regular propaganda piece by Press TV in which they have excerpted bits of his article from the Independent.”
    .
    Fisk has appeared on PressTV. Isnt all media Propaganda and agenda driven, why do you expect PressTV to be different?
    .
    The issue is about facts and reliability and at present it is more reliable and factual than the BBC,CNN,FOX,Sky etc

  100. Yes they have sold out.
    But that is what business is all about, selling stuff to the highest bidder.
    Craig you have been out bid by the Neo-cons, get over it.
    You can cry to the Guardian, about how you thought they were the nice guys when it comes to corporate media.
    In the hope your tears will be worth more to them than the money and riches flung at them from the Zionists and their supporters.
    Or we can make the mainstream media irrelevant.
    Make our own internet media and take them on, head on.
    We wont win from day one, but newspapers are dying.
    :)
    We have people in every country. Why don’t we all just get together?
    Instead of our individual blogs, get together and have one big truly independent one.
    For this to work, craig you need to ask yourself.
    Can you work together with people you have fundamental disagreements with?
    Mad Mulla types like me for instance?

  101. Israeli propaganda gets everywhere on the BBC website, even on to the Technology pages. Clever those Israeli high tech companies.
    .
    1 December 2011
    .
    Israeli start-up Takadu helps Londoners save water
    By Katia Moskvitch Technology reporter, BBC News, Tel Aviv
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15890551

  102. I am surprised Craig should be naive enough to waste any time at all on David Leigh, who is not only Jewish and a Zionist, but a well known supporter of the nastiest elements in the Israeli government (and, who knows, may well receive a handsome subsidy from his chums in Mossad. The Guardian has been as selective and economical with the truth as the BBC (and for that matter the rest of the MSM) in its Middle East reporting for quite a while now. It is really staggering how far we have come since The Times published the wretched Vanunu’s revelations about the Israeli nuclear arsenal. Your point about Profumo is a good one: Profumo was only sharing a prositute with a Soviet spy, Fox’s “best friend” seems not only to be a fully paid up Mossad operative, but his lies rather than being headlined, have actually been brushed under the carpet by the Cabinet Secretary, without a murmur from the MSM. Meanwhile, Gould has made no bones about where his true loyalties lie – and they are not to the country that pays his salary (at least his official one). Unfortunately, however much one might delude onself about the power of the Internet, what should be a huge scandal, simply does not exist in the corridors of power. Of course, one day the rot will bring the whole edifice down, and I would not care to speculate on what will happen to the traitors (for that is what they are) then, or even if those of us who oppose them will survive that long.

  103. @jives….What did he really reveal? Tittle tattle largely.Nothing of earth shattering proportions IMO..
    ,
    ,

    You must have been reading the Sun or some other bullshit rag if you think that all wikileaks revealed was tittle tattle.

    I would think that a US military helicopter cockpit video of two journalists being killed and kids and unarmed civilians being shot or murdered is pretty much earth shattering, it has never been seen before and I doubt it will be seen again. The naming and documenting of American death squads in Afghanistan murdering civilians was not really tittle tattle either. Wikileaks and its sources have released more scoops than any newspaper in the history of journalism and you call it tiitle tattle and not earth shattering. I would say you clearly have not a clue to trot out a line like that.

  104. What`s the betting that Fox will be back in a new Cameron coalition cabinet within the next 6/12 months.

  105. It’s a welcome sign of a civilized relationship – even if strained – between the print media and the blogosphere that Craig gave the Guardian advance notice of what he intended to say about them; that David Leigh responded, asking for his comments to be carried in full; and that Craig did so.

    .
    That needs to be built on. I hope Craig will remind the Guardian that good journalism pays attention to precise wording. Craig spoke of “a relationship” between the Guardian and Apax. As a normal reader, I would assume this did NOT mean ownership: if that were the relationship, there would be no reason for Craig not to say so. Leigh’s reply on that point would make any Kremlinologist or deconstructor of replies to Parliamentary Questions immediately suspicious. Craig’s point was not about ownership but about the Guardian’s relationship with Apax, which Leigh’s reponse carefully sidestepped, throwing in as deflective and dismissive chaff that Craig’s point was “daft”.

    .
    Why not test who is being daft, inaccurate or evasive? I suggest that Craig should now explain what he understands to be the relationship between the Guardian and Apax – drawing on the excellent investigative work by Komodo – and again gives Leigh the opportunity to comment before opening a new blog on “The Guardian and Apax”. That topic might well be of interest to Private Eye’s “Street of Shame” – which was given an unexpected and deserved puff in Alastair Campbell’s written evidence to the Leveson Inquiry (see http://www.levesoninquiry.org.uk/evidence/?witness=alastair-campbell ).

    .
    Do any other participants in Craig’s website intend to submit written evidence to Leveson? I’m considering doing so, as a citizen concerned at the extent to which vested interests shape the values and policies of both the media and of governments (of every political hue). From my experience of submitting evidence to Commons Select Committees, this can be a useful way of getting alternative perspectives on the public record – and even of influencing the recommedndations.

  106. A FT article by David Miliband! on the dangers of going to war with Iran.
    .
    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1322767020.html
    .
    The risks of sleepwalking into a war with Iran

    {http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/52757f10-1b69-11e1-85f8-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1fJPFqFkj}

  107. Cosy chats with each other but not about this.
    .
    https://twitter.com/#!/davidleigh3

  108. Why did Carolyn McCall leave the top job at the Guardian, CEO Guardian Media Group to go to Easyjet?
    .
    http://www.apax.com/sectors/media/our-investments/trader-media-group.aspx
    .
    {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_McCall}

  109. Junius,

    I don’t think Dacid Leigh is a Zionist, particularly. Whether he is Jewish or not is irrelevant. He is an excellent journalist – his work on BAE was some of the best stuff done for many years in the British media.

  110. I don’t think Leigh is Jewish. In fact, some Zionist elements are very unhappy indeed about him:
    http://cifwatch.com/2011/09/04/guardians-david-leigh-disclosed-secret-wikileaks%E2%80%99-passwords-for-thousands-of-unredacted-diplomatic-cables/
    .
    If you look at the topics criticised by CiFwatch, it is pretty obviously a hasbara site. And it exists solely and specifically to put pressure on the Guardian to slant its coverage in a specific direction. Obviously, I can’t know how successful it or other zionist media pressure groups are. But they may need to be factored into the equation.

  111. Wow. Synchronicity. :)

  112. user @x7o on Twitter today :

    ” The idea that being a journalist is just a career decision, rather than a mission to emancipate us from lies, is why we have our ‘industry.’ ”
    https://twitter.com/#!/x7o/status/142273052451934209

  113. They are kicking sand in our faces now. Frum is on QT tonight.

    .
    David Dimbleby will be joined by the Justice Secretary Ken Clarke and the shadow minister for small business and enterprise Chuka Umunna.
    .
    The panel will also include the businesswoman and Dragon’s Den investor Deborah Meaden and the American political commentator and former speech-writer for President George W Bush, David Frum.
    .
    Mary Bousted, general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, completes the panel line-up.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Frum

  114. The Guardian has gone downhill quicker than any newspaper I’ve ever read – oh for the Manchester Guardian days. And ask for the so-called moderators!

  115. The Grauniad, whom does it serve?

    Alan Rusbridger’s extended family by all accounts :P

    Oh, and their various cottages in Chipping Norton (I kid you not!)

  116. Oh well I guess that David Leigh is off Craig’s Christmas Card list and the Guardian is now to be cast into outer darkness.

    To argue that the Guardian is protecting Werrity when it revealed the who affair and continues to push for further investigation of the whole matter just flies in the face of reality. What Craig should realise is that if an investigative journalist of David Leigh’s quality (which Craig does have the good grace to acknowledge) does not publish a story after looking into it it is probably because it doesn’t all stack together and he probably doesn’t believe that the inferences being drawn are not supporteed by the available evidence. Those who are on the receiving end of a David Leigh investigation usually know that the allegations are likely to be of some substance and need to be taken seriously.

    I should also ask whether seeking to paint everything so black and white about the UK’s intentions to Iran (or vice versa for that matter) when the probable reality is that there are shades of grey and different attitudes all over the place, is actually likely to be conducive to solving the problem. I don’t think that we should sleepwalk into a war with Iran, but equally I don’t believe that sabre rattling offers much of a solution either.

    Junius _ i think you will find that you are just aping Assange’s original allegation about Leigh/Rusbridger/Guardian, which you will also find that he has now dropped if you care to look.

  117. Interestingly, as the daggers come out for Paul Flynn, there is an article in the Washington Post (see Mondoweiss http://mondoweiss.net/2011/12/washington-post-says-questions-surfaced-about-amb-gary-lockes-possible-dual-loyalty-to-china.html) about the new American ambassador to China which casually states ‘questions have surfaced about whether the Chinese American’s background might lead to dual loyalties’.

    Something tells me that David Frum, who already seems to have churned out an outraged screed about the behaviour of a foreign MP, will manage to overlook this slight impropriety on the part of his compatriots. Or some of his compatriots, as he is a dual citizen of Canada and the United States. Perhaps a citizen of other counties as well

  118. None of this is surprising: the Manchester Guardian became the target of the Rhodes-Milner group (aka The Round Table) for its opposition to the attack on the Afrikaner republics, and its denunciation of Rhodes’ skulduggery. The Rhodes-Milner group subsequently came to dominate the MG in much the same way it manipulated the Liberal Party to its ends; and, through the Balfour Declaration, begat Israel as a strategic outpost of the British Empire. In short, the Guardian remains faithful to the Round Table vision of Israel’s role, albeit now in the service of the American empire.

    The role of spooks at the Guardian shows a similar consistency: the paper’s correspondents in Russia at the time of the revolution constituted a who’s who of MI6 agents and assets. During the early Cold War, the paper was, for the most part, little more than an IRD front. With the arrival of the CIA, the paper was soon subsidized by the agency’s news agencies, most notably Forum World Features. It duly found the Warren Report compelling and the Zelikow whitewash of 9/11 entirely satisfactory.

    In summary, then, the Guardian is, and has been for over a century, the Anglo-American establishment’s pipeline to the British Left. As such, it is the most cynical and dishonest paper of them all.

  119. The Guardian is establishment. Do not forget their support of the Blair ID card initiative via their mouthpiece Polly Toynbee.

    http://forum.no2id.net/search.php?keywords=toynbee&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

  120. Ken,
    Alas the videos were for far too long on Ogrish.com, which later became liveleak.com (just read some of the comments sections, incidentally this site was promoted by no less than BBC) as well as other sites on the net. Along side the butt naked pictures of the GIS, and GIESSes. When the bullshit meter of the MSM had been so busted that no one cared to buy the lies in these fed to them, cue entered Wikileaks in cahoots with the five of the MSM (guardian included) to bring you the truth, yeah I should coco.
    ,
    It is my pleasure to inform you all that for the last three years I have not read the guardian, and have not been around CIF and I have no intentions of changing a good habit. That rag is living off its old reputation, of the days when reporters were not embedded, and they did not sit around waiting for the stories to drop in their mailbox, filtering those stories which were in line with the editorial policies set by their millionaire proprietors.
    ,
    The Lizard has laid bare the fifty four million pound losses, despite which the torrent of bullshit published in Guardian is yet to be stopped. As we all know only governments are suppose to carry on with loss making industry, private sector is driven by profits only, hence the paradox of fifty four million pounds of losses and the operation still going on, why?
    ,
    “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.”
    Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

  121. doug scorgie

    1 Dec, 2011 - 9:24 pm

    Guest:
    “What`s the betting that Fox will be back in a new Cameron coalition cabinet within the next 6/12 months”.
    Not worth the risk. He will be back. He has told the BBC that he is hoping to be back on the front benches soon.
    The speculation will be on which ministerial job he will be given; it won’t be a junior post. Home Office? How about Foreign Secretary? William Hague is seen as weak by the Cameron reactionaries.

  122. @Picaro, when you say the “daggers come out for Paul Flynn” do you mean “Matthew Gould”?

  123. @Fedup.

    Alas the videos were for far too long on Ogrish.com, which later became liveleak.com (just read some of the comments sections, incidentally this site was promoted by no less than BBC) as well as other sites on the net. Along side the butt naked pictures of the GIS, and GIESSes. When the bullshit meter of the MSM had been so busted that no one cared to buy the lies in these fed to them, cue entered Wikileaks in cahoots with the five of the MSM (guardian included) to bring you the truth, yeah I should coco.

    .
    .

    Wikileaks was not in cahoots with the MSM when that video came out. The video was released on a wikileaks website. This one to be exact.
    http://www.collateralmurder.com/
    .
    If you believe that what wikileaks have released is not truthful then that would be your problem,the evidence suggests it is.

  124. Jonangus Mackay

    1 Dec, 2011 - 9:44 pm

    Pub-quiz question I’ve never seen posed:
    .
    Apart from spelling, what do AIPAC & Apax have in common?

  125. Hi Komodo,
    “torture of women ……. circulated by CIA officers to America’s allies around the world as a “teaching” manual. How dare the Iranians remember all this?”
    ,
    The more disturbing aspects of the rape of men as well as women were by trained dogs. These dogs, would bite and subdue their human target before proceeding to rape them. This facet was hinted at in the tripartite documentary Power of Nightmares by Adam Curtis The voice over narrating; “Sayyid Qutb underwent three separate heart attacks, and after this experience he was never the same”. Whilst the package shows the soldier/warder/dog handler walking towards a cell and after opening the prison cell door, unleashes the dog, leading it into the cell, and shuts the cell door. After which moves onto the next cell to repeat the process.
    ,
    Although as we all know (god knows how) Shah of Iran was a “Democratic” kind of chap!

  126. I have felt for some time that newspaper editors may have received a DA-notice about a forthcoming operation against Iran, and therefore are not willing to print stories or even speculations about it. Not that it would surprise me if the Israelis attacked Iran’s nuclear facilities, after what their politicians have been saying in public.

  127. @geomannie
    “The Guardian is establishment. Do not forget their support of the Blair ID card initiative via their mouthpiece Polly Toynbee.”

    Just plain wrong read here http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/may/26/immigrationpolicy.idcards?INTCMP=SRCH

    Difficult as it may be for some to comprehend the Guardian does allow it columnists to express views that are different from its editorial line. Columnists other than Polly Toynbee expressed opposing views on ID cards e.g Henry Porter.

  128. Satan Clause

    1 Dec, 2011 - 10:29 pm

    “If you’ve got a conspiracy theory, why don’t you spit it out?”

    Having knowledge about corrupt traitors who are being protected by equally corrupt politicians, police and journalists is hardly a ‘conspiracy theory’. Obviously a nerve has been hit, as it always is with the Israelis and their selective over-sensitivities to the truth.

    It may be an “anti-Semitic conspiracy theory” to state that the “Israeli lobby” is running this country from behind the scenes, but it is also a verifiable fact – they say ‘invade Iraq’ we invade Iraq, they say ‘bomb Iran’, we bomb Iran. This country has no independent foreign policy.

  129. “Apart from spelling, what do AIPAC & Apax have in common?”
    A tenuous one. Apax’s cofounder, Alan Patricof, is American. Both he and Sir Ronald Cohen (other cofounder) attended Harvard Business School. Both are very supportive of Israel.”Apax” is a compendium of A(lan) Pa(tricof) X (Cross)(-Border), however, and the resemblance to AIPAC is almost certainly coincidental.

  130. @Abe Rene, whether they have or not put a DA-notice regarding Iran is irrevelent unless people get behind those in parliament likely to question the goings on of senior government ministers over Western Alliance plans, which have been ongoing for a decade, to create a New World Order. These are to a large extent centred on the oil-fields of the Middle East. Iran, and Syria, are on the list of countries to be deposed. It is like a dream, or rather a nightmare, that we are living in. But like the Nazis were overthrown so will be this modern-day aim at world domination. Those likely to question are the Labour Campaign Group (which include the likes of Paul Flynn and Jeremy Corbyn) a lone Green MP, and very few others. Good luck to them.

  131. Ken,
    If you believe that what wikileaks have released is not truthful then that would be your problem,the evidence suggests it is.
    ,
    Why should that be my problem Ken?
    What evidence are you referring to Ken?
    Who validated the evidence? How this evidence came to be?
    ,
    The five MSM; Le Monde, El Pais,Guardian and Der Spiegel, and New York Times, were the same bunch of liars whom published oodles on Saddam WMD, all too eagerly serving their masters and making mass murder of Iraqis probable. The same ne’er-do-wells are the subject of the thread you are commenting on.

    No Ken, I don’t need anyone telling me; what is true? or what is false? I do think, I can adduce, and my judgement can be relied upon as one of the gang of twelve people whom often sit on judgement to ascertain wrongdoing, and apportion guilt.
    ,
    The video you refer to, was in circulation doing the rounds for yonks before the wikileaks “leak”, through the dance of the seven veils.
    ,
    BTW Ken what happened to the “Banking Leaks”?
    ,
    They leak documents for this very purpose

  132. Just as well for la Toynbee’s generous income that the Grauniad is selectively tolerant of mild dissent. She contradicts herself with some regularity, and is notorious for it.

  133. @Latin

    whilst Matthew Gould should be brought to task for his activities, I was indeed referring to Paul Flynn. If you put his name in a search engine, you’ll see that a frothing-mouthed pack of ‘anti-anti-semites’ are baying for his blood.

    That the repugnant Mr Frum is right in there at the forefront is particularly ironic considering the charges of dual loyalty (mentioned in the Mondoweiss article) against the new American ambassador to China.

  134. Latin is right. But there are others who can aid the opposition, who are not separated by party lines, for example, Julian Assange, Robert Fisk, Craig Murray and St John Pilger (though there are younger journalists hopefully persuading their editors of a new tack).

  135. @Picaro, thanks for the clarification. I’m sure you’re right. What I thought was that you were comparing a Chinese ambassador with Chinese sympathies to a Zionist ambassador with Zionist sympathies.

  136. @Fedup.

    It would be your problem because obviously you are having trouble defining what is truthful and what is not. You quote a dubious film by Adam Curtis as evidence but seemingly pour scorn on secret records released by wikileaks. I am refering to evidence released thru wikileaks, I thought that was pretty obvious. The evidence is certainly from an American government system that was availaable to many thousands of people,one of which decided to take said info and give it to wikileaks and of course it is verified,a helicopter cockpit video is what it is unless you are completely lost in conspiracy theroy land.

    The MSM prnt what they can get,if they get loads of intelligence people and governemnts telling them something is true then they print that,it is up to you to believe it or not frankly.

    The video was not doing the rou7nds as you call it yonks before wikileaks released it. The video was handed to them in 2009 and was coded,wikileaks did not decode it until the first half od 2010 and it was released on April 5 2010.

    You can believe what you want fella,no one really cares. What about? what about the banking leaks?

  137. How come QT have invited Frum the has been tosser, and nobody to pass brain farts?
    ,
    We all know that: public opinion does not influence foreign policy in Britain. Foreign policy is an elite issue. Therefore inviting this odious wanker Frum whose wife was ever so proud of him for “coining” the Axis of Evil, is so gratuitously smacks of money for old boys story.

  138. Ken,
    The video was in circulations without the particulars of the mission, ie blanked out parametric, yonks before the “leak” date, if you hadn’t seen it, then perhaps you are a bit too slow on the search Ken.
    ,
    Dubious film you say Ken, now you prove you are are a troll Ken, because you are covering up for the sick bastards whom stand guilty of crimes against humanity.
    ,
    Your kind are sick Ken, and I have no time for tossers.

  139. Fedup..

    Ah you have reverted to type, insulting people who do not agree with your conspiracy theory. Well done have a gold star. No point replying to anything you write again.

  140. Anyone,
    Take time to watch the Power of Nightmares (if you have not seen it already), it is a well researched, and cleverly scripted documentary that was Broadcast on BBC2 in the days when BBC was not as whipped as the poodle that, it is now.

  141. QT is as boring as ever and so is Frum. Switch off time.
    .
    What Friends of Israel Face in Britain
    December 1st, 2011 at 11:28 am David Frum | 19 Comments |Share | Print
    .

    As an example of the attitudes my friends at the Anglo-Israel Association bump up against in contemporary Britain, there’s this:
    .
    A Labour MP has caused outrage by suggesting that Britain’s first Jewish ambassador to Israel has divided loyalties because he has “proclaimed himself to be a Zionist”.
    .
    Challenged by the JC to clarify his comments about Matthew Gould, who took up the post last year, Paul Flynn, the Labour MP for Newport West, said ambassadors to Israel had not previously been Jewish “to avoid the accusation that they have gone native”.
    .
    Britain needed, he said, “someone with roots in the UK [who] can’t be accused of having Jewish loyalty”.
    .
    Paul Flynn has not hitherto been known (I’m told) for this kind of derogatory comment. But he’s tapped a rich vein:
    .
    [Flynn] said doubts had been raised about Mr Gould’s loyalty by two of his constituents, Pippa Bartolotti and Joyce Giblin, who had been held in prison in Israel after taking part in the “flytilla” demonstration against the Gaza blockade in July.
    .
    “When they were briefly imprisoned in Israel, they met the ambassador, and they strongly believe… that he was serving the interest of the Israeli government, and not the interests of two British citizens,” he told the committee.
    .
    Ms Bartolotti is the deputy leader of the Green Party in Wales and stood against Mr Flynn at the last election.

    Mr Flynn added that the same question of divided loyalty would apply to anyone with a “foreign” family background, including former Foreign Office Minister Denis MacShane, whose father was Polish.
    .
    http://www.frumforum.com/what-friends-of-israel-face-in-britain
    .
    A typical example of his output, hardly the work of a great mind at work. Any schoolkid could produce the same or even better.

  142. Israel’s Grand Hypocrisy
    Netanyahu Slams ‘Anti-Liberal’ Arab Spring

    by Jonathan Cook / December 1st, 2011
    .
    As protests raged again across the Middle East, Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, offered his assessment of the Arab Spring last week. It was, he said, an “Islamic, anti-western, anti-liberal, anti-Israeli, undemocratic wave”, adding that Israel’s Arab neighbours were “moving not forwards, but backwards”.
    .
    It takes some chutzpah – or, at least, epic self-delusion – for Israel’s prime minister to be lecturing the Arab world on liberalism and democracy at this moment.
    .
    In recent weeks, a spate of anti-democratic measures have won support from Netanyahu’s right wing government, justified by a new security doctrine: see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil of Israel. If the legislative proposals pass, the Israeli courts, Israel’s human rights groups and media, and the international community will be transformed into the proverbial three monkeys.
    .
    /…
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/12/israel%e2%80%99s-grand-hypocrisy/

  143. Power of Nightmares… Medialens criticism and Curtis response.

    http://www.medialens.org/alerts/04/041207_Curtis_Response.html

  144. @ Ken

    Haven’t you heard of selective leaking? It’s what spooks do.Amidst a mass of possible disainfo and yes,tittle tattle,they will and do allow the occcasional real horror to get rhrough(as in the disgusting cockpit footage).This often serves though to merely “authenticate” the bona fides of the other tranche of “leaks”.Its one of the oldest spook tricks in the book Ken and i’m really surprised you have taken this story on first dimension face value.
    .

    The rabbit hole in such matters runs very deep in this sort of game Ken.There are many rooms and many mirrors.But if you want to take the main and first narrative without question i guess that’s up to you.
    .
    And no,i don’t read The Sun,as you inferred.

  145. @Jives, yes I have heard of it and wikileaks is not tittle tattle and the Americans had no gain from releasing all the info that came out. The info that has come out has done no good to the American government at all. Now if you want to believe that they somehow released all that stuff to make themselves look really bad and show their military as murderers then that is up to you, I am not buying it.

  146. @ Ken.

    Well,i guess our opinion differs then.

    And thats Ok.

  147. Jives,
    Troll does as trolls do;
    The MSM prnt what they can get,if they get loads of intelligence people and governemnts telling them something is true then they print that,it is up to you to believe it or not frankly.
    ,
    However before it was;
    If you believe that what wikileaks have released is not truthful then that would be your problem,the evidence suggests it is.
    ,
    ON goes the contradictory run of bullshit, and bullocks, to tie up the thread.
    ,
    ,
    Mary,
    That piece by the Hasbara Author D. Miliband is an interesting front developing at this early stage.

  148. @Jives.

    Yes opinions differ and that is fine. Cheers.

  149. Jonangus Mackay

    2 Dec, 2011 - 12:22 am

    @Komodo. It’s the coincidence that intrigues me. But not just the spelling.
    .
    No sooner had ‘Lord Cashpoint’ Levy, key fundraiser for Blair, departed Number 10 along with Mr Tony, than he was replaced in the role of prime ministerial fundraiser by Apax founder Sir Ronald Cohen, key financial backer of Gordon Brown. This, and the Apax/AIPAC coincidence, is what first drew him to my attention.
    .
    Levy first met Blair, if you recall, at a dinner party hosted by the Israeli diplomat Gideon Meir. For almost a decade the ardent Zionist Levy, labelled in an Observer headline a ‘jolly bagman,’ served as the UK prime minister’s ‘personal envoy’ to the Middle East.
    .
    Cohen, known as the ‘father of British venture capital,’ gave Labour over £2 million & bankrolled Gordon Brown’s leadership bid. He went on to be dubbed the prime minister’s ‘private banker.’
    .
    From a 2007 Jewish Chronicle interview:
    .
    ‘As for the tougher questions journalists have raised – whether he is “non-domiciled” for tax – he is firmly evasive: “I take the view that I am a law-abiding citizen who pays all the taxes that he is supposed to pay, and they are substantial. I am not going to discuss my tax affairs in public, full stop.”‘
    .
    Now it’s being suggested, not for the first time, that the Guardian’s dependency upon financial backing from Cohen’s Apax may be warping the paper’s editorial policy on matters pertaining to Israel & Iran.
    .
    Pub quiz? On this one, Komodo, nul points.

  150. @ Fedup
    .
    Troll does as trolls do;
    The MSM prnt what they can get,if they get loads of intelligence people and governemnts telling them something is true then they print that,it is up to you to believe it or not frankly.
    ,
    However before it was;
    If you believe that what wikileaks have released is not truthful then that would be your problem,the evidence suggests it is.
    ,
    ON goes the contradictory run of bullshit, and bullocks, to tie up the thread.
    ,

    I got ya dude,i know…i just couldn’t be bothered riffin’ against those posts.Sometimes you just know it’ll fall on ears that won’t hear…my energy levels are a tad low tonight..
    .
    Regards,

  151. fedup and jives..a double act who think they know whats what. Laughable. I will tell you what you really know. You know the colour of your socks and what you eat and things that you do firsthand in any given day. Everything else in the entire world that you do not see first hand you do not know. That is the fact boys..now run along.

  152. @ Ken
    ,
    “That is the fact boys.”

    You assume i’m male-and read The Sun,as well!All in the space of two posts! LOL.

  153. General David Petraeus, now head of the CIA: “a war of perception… conducted continuously through the news media”.

  154. “Everything else in the entire world that you do not see first hand you do not know.”
    .
    So I shouldn’t be telling anyone that the world is not flat, it’s round. Ok. :)

  155. Guardian, BBC, the Daily Mail, etc – in fact almost all of British mainstream media is controlled by anti-Muslim Ziocon mafia. They have at war against Muslim world before WW I. Balfour Declaration, 9/11 and 7/7 are all connected to invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Libya and the future wars with Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Pakistan.

    As far Britain’s anti-Muslim cospiracies are concerned, who would know better than former London Mayor Ken Livingstone.

    “The people like Michael Gove who are fervent Zionists and Boris Johnson, they wanted to isolate Al-Qaradawi because he’s a critic of Israel. And they ignored the fact he strongly urges Muslims not to launch attacks here in Britain”.

    http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/uk-lobby-ken-livingstone-is-anti-semite/

  156. I’ve only just realised that the David Leigh in this post is the same man who published the Wikileaks password. I honestly hadn’t made the connection when I commented earlier. It’s not surprising he’s so rude and unpleasant and unprofessional in his reply to Craig.
    .
    Craig, he may have done some good work at some point in the past, but he’s not ‘an excellent journalist’ given the way he betrayed confidences and broke commitments to his source.

  157. When the Times moved to Wapping I started reading the Guardian. Even though it only costs €1 here in Ireland I stopped buying the Guardian a year ago because it had strayed from its previous editorial policy. I watched a video today where it was quoted that a Chinese General had stated that China would support Iran even if it started World War III

  158. Jon
    @Pete – no, I think he’d still have worked with them. In fact, as an evidently highly intelligent individual, I suspect Assange decided to hold his nose whilst working with the MSM even before they fell out.
    .
    No, I think it’s a mistake to dignify the Guardian by lumping them together with the MSM in this context. Assange also worked with Der Spiegel and Le Monde, but neither of them published the password. If Wikileaks needed a UK partner there are other papers out there. The Guardian, and David Leigh in particular, have shown themselves to be contemptible and dishonest pseudo-journalists. I’m really disappointed that Craig should still be giving credibility to Leigh – if he wants to take the Guardian up on its failure to report fully on Gouxitty, couldn’t he have approached someone without quite such an egregious record of turning on sources and breaching their confidences?

  159. Hullo Craig,
    .
    Let me get this straight, this is all driven by the Military Industrial Complex so that presumably they might sell more weapons? And the fact that the targets of these weapons all happen to be the aboriginal inhabitants of land sought by the Ashkenazi Jewish state grafted into their midst has little to do with it, yes?
    .
    Isn’t this a bit like saying the meat industry exists as the product of the evil Abattoir Industrial Complex? As opposed to, say, the demand of carnivores who like eating flesh?
    .
    Why can’t we just say it? We’re prepared to say it of Muslims so there ought not to be any problem. Here, I’ll do it: there are Jewish people out there who act in the interests of the Jewish state, and they do so to the detriment of the nation they reside in. Don’t argue – Fox/Gould/Werrity is proof of that and in the words of the famous joke ‘now we’re just haggling’.
    .
    The question then follows: How far would they be prepared to go, these people who’d sell out their own country to war? Would they be prepared to fake a terror attack on a ‘friend’ whilst pretending to be Arabs? Like they did in the King David hotel bombing? And the Lavon Affair bombings? And the attempted sinking of the USS Liberty? And if Whitehall, and the media, and other like-mindeds are covering this up, what else might they cover up? The seventh of July? I don’t see why not. After all, these are wars we’re talking about. And faint heart ne’er won a fucking armageddon.
    .
    As for your posited MIC villain: you really need some kind of primate recognition chart Craig. It only needs two creatures – on one side a monkey and on the other an organ grinder.

  160. The Guardian. Whom does it serve?
    .

    The phone hacking stuff is brilliant, though I have wondered for a while how much The Guardian is being manipulated, even on this story. However, the Libya coverage was laughable, and their editorial policy is generally neoliberal-lite. This alone makes it clear that The Guardian has become a fairly standard mainstream newspaper, with all the inherent MSM flaws.
    .
    Their vindictiveness towards Assange, however, is deeply strange. And David Leigh just comes across terribly in that email. Just sanctimonious, and overly defensive. Something to hide?

  161. Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan warned Thursday against an Israeli attack on Iran, saying such a move would likely lead to a regional war involving Hezbollah, Hamas, and Syria.

    “I’m concerned about possible mistakes and I prefer to speak out before there is a catastrophe,” Dagan said in an interview on the Israeli television program “Uvda.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/former-mossad-chief-israeli-attack-on-iran-must-be-stopped-to-avert-catastrophe-1.399046
    .
    This is the third or fourth time he’s said this I think.

  162. The clowns at Press TV have wheeled out one of the most desperate articles I’ve ever seen.
    .
    Anti-Iran mobs have attacked Iran’s embassy in London and breached security in a coordinated and planned move, reports say.

    The incident happened less than 24 hours before the deadline Britain had given Iran to close its embassy in London and remove its diplomats from the British soil.


    .
    Does anyone have any pictures or video of this mob attacking the embassy as the only picture appearing on Press TV is of a solitary Bobbie standing outside.
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/213228.html
    .
    They do this all the time with headlines screaming about “people arrested” on demos in the UK/US etc… while observing stony silence on the daily killings by Syria’s security forces except occasionally to say that it is the work of Zionists.

  163. Joke of the day:

    “The Guardian truly lets a thousand flowers bloom.”
    CiF blogger Richard Silverstein

  164. Happylaughs

    2 Dec, 2011 - 7:11 am

    Angrysobs
    Perhaps PressTV are trying to learn from their august colleagues in the west.

  165. Fedup This is a discussion on the Miliband piece in the FT. You have to scroll through the repeats of the actual acticle which is a bit tedious.
    .
    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1322766642.html

  166. The mad men in Washington up the pressure. Obama is said to be sceptical because of the effect on the faltering economy and might veto the move.
    .
    U.S. Senate OK’s sanctions on Iran central bank
    Fri Dec 2, 2011 2:58am GMT

    *
    Senate acts despite warnings from Obama administration

    *
    Officials concerned over impact on oil markets, allies (Updates with passage of defense bill, paragraph 8)
    .
    By Arshad Mohammed and Susan Cornwell
    .
    WASHINGTON, Dec 1 (Reuters) – The U.S. Senate unanimously approved tougher sanctions against Iran on Thursday, voting to penalize foreign financial institutions that do business with Iran’s central bank, the main conduit for its oil revenues.
    .
    The Senate acted despite warnings from Obama administration officials who said threatening U.S. allies might not be the best way to get their cooperation in action against Iran.
    .
    Administration officials said they were indeed looking to sanction Iran’s central bank, but in a calibrated manner, to avoid roiling oil markets or antagonizing allies.
    .
    The United States already bars its own banks from dealing with the Iranian central bank, so U.S. sanctions would operate by dissuading other foreign banks from doing so by threatening to cut them off from the U.S. financial system.
    .
    The United States and its Western allies have supported multiple rounds of sanctions on Iran, seeking to persuade it to curtail its nuclear work. Washington suspects Tehran of using its civilian nuclear program to develop an atomic bomb, although Iran says its program is solely to produce electricity.
    .
    The Senate voted 100-0 for an amendment sponsored by Senator Robert Menendez, a Democrat, and Senator Mark Kirk, a Republican, that would allow the U.S. president to sanction foreign banks found to have carried out a “significant financial transaction with the Central Bank of Iran.”
    .
    “We seek to break the stable financial intermediary in between Iranian oil contracts and the outside world, so that it will just be easier to buy oil from elsewhere,” Kirk said in debate this week.
    .
    The sanctions were approved as an amendment to a huge defense bill that passed later on Thursday in the Senate [ID:nN1E7B01V8]. Similar provisions have passed a House of Representatives committee, increasing the likelihood that some version will be sent to Obama for his signature into law — or possible veto.
    .
    On Nov. 21, the United States, Britain and Canada announced new sanctions on Iran’s energy and financial sectors, but the Obama administration stopped short of targeting Iran’s central bank, a step that U.S. officials said could send oil prices skyrocketing and jeopardized global economic recovery.
    .
    “The Obama administration strongly supports increasing the pressure on Iran, and that includes properly designed and targeted sanctions against the central bank of Iran, appropriately timed as part of a carefully phased and sustainable policy toward bringing about Iranian compliance with its obligations,” U.S. Undersecretary of State Wendy Sherman told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee earlier on Thursday, several hours before the Senate vote.
    .

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/12/02/iran-usa-sanctions-idUKN1E7B00N320111202?feedType=RSS&feedName=rbssFinancialServicesAndRealEstateNews

  167. That emoticon appeared because the figure 8 was followed by a close bracket sign in the text!

  168. James Chater

    2 Dec, 2011 - 8:32 am

    I cancelled my subscription to the Guardian Weekly years ago because the Guardian editor supped regularly with Blair and was determined to support him through thick and thin, even if it meant condoning war crimes and supporting a war criminal. When editors are so complicit with politicians their newspapers lose all credibility.
    In my opinion its figleaf liberalism makes it a dangerous paper, more so than the Daily Telegraph, where at least you know where you stand. For me, The Guardian is the “liberal bombers’” newspaper. Its readers are those who think Iraq was a “mistake”, not a crime. They deplored the mess but voted Labour in again anyway.
    Its 2 redeeming features are Monbiot and (up to a point) Polly Toynbee. But even these 2 aren’t enough to counterbalance its pernicious influence.

  169. The Muslim Chronicle, the UK’s oldest and most widely-read Shi’ite newspaper, ran this rather odd story yesterday:

    http://thepassionateattachment.com/2011/12/02/muslim-envoy-not-loyal-to-uk-says-labour-mp/

  170. Alan Arsebridger

    2 Dec, 2011 - 8:58 am

    Its 2 redeeming features are Monbiot and (up to a point) Polly Toynbee.
    .
    No. Its two redeeming features are Steve Bell and Martin Rowson. Monbiot is occasionally worthwhile but sometimes ignorant and foolish. Toynbee is a waste of carbon and water.

  171. Brendan “the Libya coverage was laughable”
    .

    The Guardian backed the rebels. I read the middle-east blog sometimes and the editor Brian Whitaker regularly appeared in the comments supporting Nato’s bombing campaigning saying it was justified becuase UN 1973 said protecting civilains was
    mandated.
    .
    But he refused to acknowledge the first UN 1973 demand that was a ‘negotiated ceasefire’. In other words regime change, removing Gaddafi, a war crime, would save lives – I assumed his reasoning was that in the long term a new democratic Libya would be born from the ashes and everyone would live happily ever after. (now of course the Guardian has moved on with the rest of the media, Libya has been forgotten)
    .
    Below another piece about Syria he accused a commentator of being a “conspiracy theorist” for suggesting that Saudi Arabia might be backing some anti-Assad militants.
    .
    Backing UK wars is normal for the paper, the bombing of Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now it’s got guns blazing at Iran. For years it’s been giving a disproportionate amount of attention to Iran and published lots of “leaked” IAEA hype about Iran’s nuclear program. It’s like Iraq never happened.
    .

  172. “Now it’s being suggested, not for the first time, that the Guardian’s dependency upon financial backing from Cohen’s Apax may be warping the paper’s editorial policy on matters pertaining to Israel & Iran.
    .
    Pub quiz? On this one, Komodo, nul points.”
    .
    Do check back on some of the other threads, and see who’s been doing the suggesting (and research) lately.
    You asked about AIPAC.
    You should be asking about BICOM if you are interested in the generous funders of British parties. Though Patricof’s links with AIPAC are probably relevant to a wider study.

  173. Alan Arsebridger

    2 Dec, 2011 - 10:10 am

    The Guardian backed the rebels.
    .
    The Guardian backed NATO. As ever.

  174. I would suggest you supply your evidence to Russia Today News and get an interview.

    Keep up the good work.

    You can rob a bank with a gun, you can rob the world with a bank.

  175. O/T Is this man with strange beliefs related to Rosa Monckton, wife of Dominic Lawson and hence daughter in law of climate warming sceptic Lord Nigel Lawson. She was also supposed to be a friend of Diana.
    .
    http://climatecrocks.com/2011/07/18/monckton-im-a-member-of-parliament-ive-cured-hiv-there-is-no-climate-change/

  176. Brendan:”
    The phone hacking stuff is brilliant, though I have wondered for a while how much The Guardian is being manipulated, even on this story. ”
    .
    Me too, of late.
    .
    What better pretext for official censorship of the press than protecting the public from phone hackers – at the same time as diverting attention from the “private investigators” who were actually doing the hacking?

  177. Jonangus Mackay

    2 Dec, 2011 - 11:00 am

    @Maidhc Ó Cathail: Brilliant link. Deserves widest possible circulation.
    .
    So, to save anyone having to look for it, I repeat it here:
    http://bit.ly/v8sY0Y

  178. Nietzche's toothbrush

    2 Dec, 2011 - 11:02 am

    BBC doc. on Lionel Richie in its ‘America season.’ Richie, you recall, sang the first Noel, ‘born is the King of Israel.’ Guardian describes him as ‘Pop’s chinniest balladeer.’ Very cheerful!

  179. Were you referring to these sentences when you say ‘brilliant link’?
    .
    ‘Mr Flynn asked about meetings between Mr Werritty and Mr Samadi. Mr Samadi previously served as a diplomat in Israel and some reports have speculated that he, Mr Werritty and Dr Fox discussed a potential military strike on Israel with the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.

    “I do not normally fall for conspiracy theories, but the ambassador has proclaimed himself to be an Iranian nationalist and he has previously served in Israel, in the service,” said Mr Flynn.’

  180. The Guardian failed to display my comment totally. It was not refused due to their Guidelines, it was not refused for linking to this site, it was just Disappeared, as if it never happened.
    There is no difference between that broadsheet and a tabloid, both are led by the nose, in case of the Guardian, the journo’s have yet to realise it, or to stop ignoring it. I suppose having a shitty job is better than to have no job at all.
    See how long the Guardian can keep going with such losses mounting up, are they too big for their boots or to big to fail?

  181. I fell for the satire didn’t I?

  182. Clue for those wishing to post comments on CiF – don’t mention Israel by name. Zionist, Gould and Murray probably require circumlocution too. Think at least part of the censorship process involves automatic keyword recognition.

  183. Maidhc Ó Cathail,
    The projection sounds really outrageous does it not?
    Good work, this genre needs to be explored further.
    I enjoyed the replies section, of course Komodo will know Denis MacShane formerly known as Denis Matyjaszek, and Robert Halfon have no Shi’ite equivalents in the parliament.

  184. I see Paul Flynn has been hauled up before the Labour Chief Whip, Rosie Winterton. She ‘voted very strongly for the Iraq war’. Most probably she would vote the same way for one on Iran.
    .
    Paul Flynn is assuaging his critics thus:
    .
    Flynn later released a statement which attempted to clarify these remarks.

    .
    “Today’s accusation that I have made an anti-Semitic remark is ludicrous. I have been a lifelong friend of Israel and Jewish causes.I have visited Israel on four occasions including a private family holiday. (!!!! me)
    .
    “Never before in my long political life has such an accusation been made. But I have been accused of being too friendly to Israel on many occasions.

    .
    “ True. I am strongly prejudiced against a war in Iran and in favour of Israel. That is why I am demanded a legitimate inquiry into the Liam Fox/ Werrity affair by Phillip Mawer to include a full probe into the USA anti Neo-con groups influence in advancing their agenda.
    .
    “The issue is the possibility of the UK stumbling into a war with Iran.
    .
    “It is a disappointing Labour Party colleagues joined in the hysteria without any of them first contacting me. It’s the Ian Gibson syndrome. Attack on the basis of the publicity not on the truth of the issue.”

    .
    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/12/02/paul-flynn-mp-in-anti-semitic-row-91466-29883025/

  185. Jonangus Mackay

    2 Dec, 2011 - 12:43 pm

    Of course. For anyone, Komodo, with the well-being of humanity at heart, BICOM cannot possibly be subjected to too much scrutiny. And what about all those ‘young British artists’ blithely in receipt of Zabludowicz blood money?
    .
    PS: I note with interest that in his capacity as chief fund-raiser for Hilary Clinton’s presidential campaign, Apax co-founder Alan Patricof was seeking in effect to emulate his old mucker Sir Ronald’s success as ‘private banker’ to prime minister Brown. Unsuccessfully, as it turned out.

  186. Mary, I’m sure Paul Flynn can handle himself, though it’s not nice being called in for a dressing-down especially when you’re in the right. The newspaper article leaves much to be desired. It contains the rather abbreviaed quote from Forward that described Matthew Gould as “not just an ambassador” full stop. What should have been quoted, if my memory serves is “not just an Israeli ambassador but an ambassador for Israel.” It’s curious how reporters can give a totally different picture by selectively quoting. But on this issue all publicity is good publicity.

  187. Uzbek in the UK

    2 Dec, 2011 - 12:47 pm

    Shah of Iran was tyrant who is still hated by majority of Iranians (except small number of elites who were able to benefit greatly from service to Shah).
    .
    BUT current regime of ayatollahs mixed with charismatic leadership of Iranian president is NO better than tyranny of Shah. Opponents to the regime have been killed and tortured under Shah and they are being tortured under current regime. What Iran needs is secular opposition to the current regime. Will current regime allow such opposition?
    .
    Majority of Iranians I met in the UK are smart people who came here to study, some of them on a scholarship. They have clear knowledge in their fields and quite open minded. They are not post Shah elite but ordinary people. Most of them told me openly that after finishing their degree they will try to stay here. WHY? Because for what it takes they cannot realise their potential, their knowledge and expertise back home where everything is under strict scrutiny of the regime. For what it takes Iran should allow such smart people to be able to realise their potential and benefit Iran and Iranians. But current regime is no much better than Shah.

  188. Jonangus Mackay

    2 Dec, 2011 - 12:57 pm

    PPS:
    .
    Hilary’s successful rival was of course already well covered. As ‘Obama’s Middle East policy’ has since spectacularly confirmed, despite naive hopes to the contrary, David Axelrod, Rahm Emmanuel & the other good ole boys from Chicago made very sure of that.

  189. Uzbek in the UK – It seems you have believing to much what BBC and other western mainstream media controlled by Zionist Rupert Murdoch and Israel Lobby. Iran is the ONLY true democracy in the Muslim world and Dr. Ahmadinejad is one of the few fearless and honest world leaders. Here is what American writer and blogger, John Kamenski, wrote about Ahmadinejad in his article “The beautiful Iranians”.

    I don’t know how many times I’ve said to my friends — and they can verify it — “I wish we had a president as decent as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the current and outspoken president of Iran.

    “I mean, just compare the two men as human beings. Mr. Ahmadinejad seems like a decent guy from the neighborhood, trying to tell the truth while being trampled by the demonic Jewish spin machine. And here is George W. Bush (interchangeable with Barack Obama, as have been all American presidents since U.S. Grant), revealing himself to the world as a lying, pathological killer. Hey, which one would you choose?”

    http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/ahmadinejad-beyond-the-zionist-propaganda/

  190. Just some links :

    As far as there being any “war” on Iran, one could say that it has already been declared, just a more covert policy (which dovetails nicely with the Obama administration’s policy of covert war-making and general global counterinsurgency – which is shaping up to look a little like a new type of cold war between US and Russia/China regarding Iran and Syria) :
    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2011/11/harper-is-war-against-iran-already-underway.html

    Involving cyber warfare as well :
    http://www.symantec.com/business/outbreak/?id=stuxnet

    See Alex Fishman at 6:25 : “How else do you pressure the Americans to raise sanctions?” :
    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7640

    It’s strange though, to see the in-fighting between the Israeli security-military-intelligence apparatus (who prefer to carry on a more covert campaign, as they have been doing, see all the recent declarations by Dagan) and the three hardliner clowns Netanyahu, Barak and Liberman, who seem to be ramping up pressure more for domestic, political reasons (although Liberman is probably a true believer and fanatic).

    The basic tactic though seems to be to convince the Americans that they are so irrational and dangerous (see Moché Dayan’s “mad dog” quote) that they just might go through with it – in order to leverage more sanctions. All of the press releases, discussion of Iran’s nuclear program, fear mongering Op Eds, etc. seem to be just that ; after all, Israel has most often gone to war and bombed without much discussion beforehand.

  191. @Rehmat.

    Iran is not a democracy at all. The Iranian regime is brutal to its people and that is not some spin from Jews or the BBC,it is well documented by many human rights organisations. Uzbek in the UK is correct that the regime in Iran is no better than the Shah.http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/iran

  192. Uzbek,
    Put a sock in it! You are an Uzbeck, and no Persian to understand the nuances.

    Because for what it takes they cannot realise their potential, their knowledge and expertise back home where everything is under strict scrutiny of the regime.
    ,
    Trouble that these acquaintances of yours have is the fierce competition in Iran from other highly educated people, and the scramble for good jobs thereof. Your condescending “regime”, “ayatollahs” did you write these originally or has someone else thought them out, for you?
    ,
    Do try and learn; Iran is not a religious apartheid of the kind of Isreal. Iran is not a plutocracy of the kind of US, UK, et al. Iran is not a dictatorship of the kind of Saudi, Uzbekistan, UAE, Bahrain, etc. Therefore Iran is closest to the model of the “democracy” you are so hung up on. However, your notions of a “secular Democracy” not being accepted, and or entertained by the Iranians somehow does not make their choice of the mode of governance invalid, in other words Uzbek you best take heed of the Scottish proverb; “everyone is oot of step except oor Jock”. You the foreign guy evidently know what is best for Iranians, and keep on whining about it too.

  193. Rehmat,
    this Ken character is outed as a troll further up the, don’t feed the wanker.

  194. John Goss: “It’s curious how reporters can give a totally different picture by selectively quoting.”
    .
    Indeed. The example I use to illustrate the power of selective quoting is:
    .
    ‘Socrates proclaimed “Life is not worth living”, shortly before he killed himself in front of his distraught companions.’
    .
    This makes him sound like a suicidal depressive, yet it is perfectly accurate. Of course the complete phrase (which itself is only part of a sentence embedded in a discourse about an imagined scenario) is: “The unexamined life is not worth living”. Moreover Socrates had been sentenced to death by drinking poison, and he was carrying it out according to the law. So quotes can be literal and accurate but truncations can change the intended meaning drastically.
    .
    The MSM employs even more overt tactics, omitting key words, replacing phrases with ellipses, changing voice, substituting pronouns, and quoting out of context. (Witness today’s Clarkson furore.)

  195. Nextus: The MSM employs even more overt tactics, omitting key words, replacing phrases with ellipses, changing voice, substituting pronouns, and quoting out of context. (Witness today’s Clarkson furore.)

    .
    Yeah, this is true. It turns out that Clarkson was “innocent”. We don’t have to like him to realize that the way he was quoted was completely dishonest by anyone editing the quotes.
    .
    That said, I think this Stewart Lee comedy clip which I’ve already linked to is more than apt when it comes to Clarkson and his fans (including Richard the Hamster Hammond).
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0i0RXMvzMs

  196. @passerby..

    It sure looks like none of you people can post anything without insulting people. That says a lot about you not me sunshine. My link to Amnesty proves my point,if you want to disagree with the Amnesty report on Iran then go a head,list some points that they are wrong on and put forth your argument why they are wrong. Just calling people names makes you look foolish.

  197. It might be nothing but this link contains something about Tony Buckingham and financial dealings (or misdealings) but I can’t get the link to work. Can anybody else?
    .
    http://pubsub.com/Turkish-oil-boss-hit-by-record-insider-dealing-fine_Guardian-Financial-Services-Authority-FSA-Regulators-cDHRaZWZZ3S,bPBWrbm9mVZE

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