The Troodos Conundrum

by craig on August 31, 2013 8:43 am in Uncategorized

troodos2

 

The GCHQ listening post on Mount Troodos in Cyprus is arguably the most valued asset which the UK contributes to UK/US intelligence cooperation.  The communications intercept agencies, GCHQ in the UK and NSA in the US, share all their intelligence reports (as do the CIA and MI6).  Troodos is valued enormously by the NSA.  It monitors all radio, satellite and microwave traffic across the Middle East, ranging from Egypt and Eastern Libya right through to the Caucasus.  Even almost all landline telephone communication in this region is routed through microwave links at some stage, picked up on Troodos.

Troodos is highly effective – the jewel in the crown of British intelligence.  Its capacity and efficiency, as well as its reach, is staggering.  The US do not have their own comparable facility for the Middle East.  I should state that I have actually been inside all of this facility and been fully briefed on its operations and capabilities, while I was head of the FCO Cyprus Section in the early 1990s.  This is fact, not speculation.

It is therefore very strange, to say the least, that John Kerry claims to have access to communications intercepts of Syrian military and officials organising chemical weapons attacks, which intercepts were not available to the British Joint Intelligence Committee.

On one level the explanation is simple.  The intercept evidence was provided to the USA by Mossad, according to my own well  placed source in the Washington intelligence community.  Intelligence provided by a third party is not automatically shared with the UK, and indeed Israel specifies it should not be.

But the inescapable question is this.  Mossad have nothing comparable to the Troodos operation.  The reported content of the conversations fits exactly with key tasking for Troodos, and would have tripped all the triggers.  How can Troodos have missed this if Mossad got it?  The only remote possibility is that all the conversations went on a purely landline route, on which Mossad have a physical wire tap, but that is very unlikely in a number of ways – not least nowadays the purely landline route.

Israel has repeatedly been involved in the Syrian civil war, carrying out a number of illegal bombings and missile strikes over many months.  This absolutely illegal activity by Israel- which has killed a great many civilians, including children – has brought no condemnation at all from the West.  Israel has now provided “intelligence” to the United States designed to allow the United States to join in with Israel’s bombing and missile campaign.

The answer to the Troodos Conundrum is simple.  Troodos did not pick up the intercepts because they do not exist.  Mossad fabricated them.  John Kerry’s “evidence” is the shabbiest of tricks.  More children may now be blown to pieces by massive American missile blasts.  It is nothing to do with humanitarian intervention.  It is, yet again, the USA acting at the behest of Israel.

 

 

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433 Comments

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  1. You can’t write off Israel’s communications intelligence capability so quickly. Have you had a look at their Unit 8200? See in particular what the French have been saying about it? Their Urim listening base in the Negev is pretty damned capable.

    Many top Israeli techies have a background there. The Stuxnet virus, for example, was created at Unit 8200.

    Here’s a question you might ask your well-placed source in US intelligence: where are Unit 8200’s main bases abroad?.

    One of my guesses would be Singapore. Israel built up the Singaporean armed forces after the British left, and the Singaporean airforce has a presence on several airbases dotted around the world.

    Unit 8200 also run facilities at several Israeli embassies. Which ones?

    Note for those who don’t know already: Unit 8200 isn’t part of Mossad; it’s part of the army, although it supplies information to Mossad and other agencies. Some of the Israeli intelligence work in Syria is also done not by Mossad (which is civilian, like MI6) but by Aman, the military intelligence agency.

  2. How can Troodos have missed this if Mossad got it? The only remote possibility is that all the conversations went on a purely landline route

    Replace “Mossad” with “Unit 8200″ and the question weakens considerably.

    A physical tap on a landline is by no means the only possibility.

  3. N

    Err, no. If “Unit 8200″ could get it, so could Troodos. Israel of course has communications intercept facilities, but they are nowhere near the capability of the UK/US operation. The myth of effortless Israeli technological superiority in every field is a bit silly.

    Of course a physical tap on a landline is not the only possibility. It is however the only possibility I can think of which Troodos would not also be able to get, and even then only if the route was pure landline (unlikely). Your argument is that Israel would have the capacity to intercept communication; indeed they would. But they would not have the ability to intercept communication which Troodos could not intercept.

  4. Craig, are you genned up on the battle between the CIA and other US agencies, most notably the NSA but also including the military, over who should appoint CIA Station Chiefs, including in London?

    See for example this article from the Spectator in 2009.

    The head of the CIA’s London station always used to be a de factor member of the UK’s Joint Intelligence Commitee. I don’t think that’s ever been mentioned in the UK press. It’s an important fact, though, if anyone needs further proof of the UK’s status as a dependency or neo-colony of the US.

    The NSA tried to muscle in and gain the right to appoint the top CIA guys at foreign stations, in particular the main guy in London. Part of their reasoning was that the NSA has a much bigger presence in the UK than the CIA does.

    In terms of substance rather than surface, that particular NSA-CIA spat may be about control over the JIC being taken by a certain shitty little country in the Middle East…

  5. Nobody was coming from any myth of effortless Israeli techie superiority.

    What’s your basis for thinking the Israelis are nowhere near the capability of the US and UK? Maybe you have been misled. If you reject the French assertions published in Le Monde, is that because you think they are disinformation or is it because you think the French genuinely get it wrong whereas the information you received in British service was correct?

    Or one could ask, was it only because of a commitment to honesty and correctness that these assertions were hardly touched in the British and US media? :)

  6. N_

    The CIA certainly get JIC reports, and of course their intelligence material is a major part of the input. But they are not de facto members and they don’t attend the meetings, either of JIC or its sub-committees. Again, I do speak as a first hand witness.

    I don’t think the NSA have a hope in hell of getting control – or meaningful input – on Heads of Station appointments. In both UK and US, NSA and GCHQ are much more important than CIA/MI6 in useful intelligence provision, but remain politically a very great deal weaker. Anyway we are getting off topic!

  7. “The Stuxnet virus, for example, was created at Unit 8200.”

    This is partly why Fukishima is such a massive disaster – 4 times more radioactivity released than Chernobyl with a run-away core eating through th earth’s crust and poisioning the Pacific Ocean.

    The TEPCO engineers were unable to shut the reactors down after the earthquake and before the Tsunami hit. This is what Stuxnet was designed to do, prevent Iranian engineers from stopping their reactors from destroying themseleves in the event of a malfunction. Israel and the US basically caused Fukishima with their reckless use of ‘cyber weapons’.

    They really are a monkies with grenades, as people wise up to the damage these two nations have done to the Earth and it’s people one really must have genuine concern for their fututre well-being as nations.

    One day we might have to go in there and the stop the Americans and Israeli regime from killing their ownm people.

  8. Dick the Prick

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:42 am

    Glad you’re back Craig and hope you’re in fine fettle.

  9. The fake conversation contrived between the israeli attackers and the mavi marmara crew which they leaked after the incident in their defence is a classic pointer of the mossad capabilities.

  10. I don’t think you even need to question the validity of the intelligence, we all know it’s fake, they’ve been doing the same thing for years. The way the current military and propaganda operation is currently playing out, it seems like this has been a planned operation from the start. On the 2oth of August, the day before the chemical attack, Press TV’s Youtube account was cancelled by Youtube. According to Press TV this was due to pressure from the Israeli-American Anti-Defamation League (ADL).

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/08/20/319607/youtube-attacks-press-tv-again/

    This is the first rule of warfare, insure that you control the propaganda.

  11. Hmmm… very interesting, thanks Craig. The lying bastards.

    Hypocrites too:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/government-may-sanction-chemical-incapacitant-use-on-rioters-scientists-fear-6612084.html

    Anyone else remember when the UK govt threatened the use of chemical weapons on its own population?

  12. It’s all a bit odd but I think you’re deducing way more than the evidence supports. Microwave links are pretty much point-to-point. If you’re not roughly in-line with the link you won’t hear a lot. Israel has more land close enough and also, perhaps, more motivation to insert repeaters to do interception so is more likely to be able to listen in. Or maybe both Israel and the UK physically received the RF signal but Israel, via some method or other (human intelligence, stuxnet-style attacks or whatever) had the encryption keys. Who knows?

    Similar sort of thing to wonder about: supposedly both Greenwald in Rio and Poitras in Berlin had complete copies of the Snowden files from their meetings with him in Hong Kong. Yet, for some reason, Miranda was supposed to be carrying a copy of some of that data from Berlin to Rio. Why? Could be something mundane like Greenwald had forgotten the key on some of the data or something. Or maybe somebody else has leaked additional material to Poitras. Or what?

    Frankly, taking whatever anybody says at face value is getting rather hard.

  13. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:48 am

    “The head of the CIA’s London station always used to be a de factor member of the UK’s Joint Intelligence Commitee. I don’t think that’s ever been mentioned in the UK press.”
    _______________

    I don’t think that’s correct (about it never having been mentioned in the press, I mean). And I think you can replace “used to be” by “is”.
    And finally, I don’t find that especially strange (or reprehensible for that matter).

  14. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:51 am

    Perhaps a representative of the US NSA rather than the CIA.

  15. Ed,

    No they can pick up microwave links all over the area. Remember they have budgets in billions and thousands of people, many of them extremely brilliant, working on this. I know specifically that they can do this – indeed they could do it very effectively twenty years ago, and presumably even more efficiently now.

  16. It turns out not only Kerry’s intercepts are fake, his pictures are too

    http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-kerry-caught-using-fake-photos-to-fuel-syrian-wa/

  17. Well, apparently Kerry’s speech began with a fake photo.

    http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-kerry-caught-using-fake-photos-to-fuel-syrian-wa/

    That’s a bad indicator re the rigour behind the other information he presented.

    Even from the military point of view, this is a botch up. The last thing to do when launching a strike is to signal the intention before hand, so that they can take cover. But as its much to with Obama’s vanity… and nothing to do with pushing for peace…

    In their mad rush they’ll lose any leverage they have – just as soon as they carry out the attack. The sword hanging over Assad’s head will be gone. And if subsequent evidence implicates the rebels… or says it wasn’t a nerve agent…

  18. Oops… beat me to it Craig…

  19. may I remind you of the fake israli transmission(s) concerning the tripoli bombing by the Reagan gang in 1986 (I think, not sure)just after (or was it before?) the “la belle” berlin discoteque incident,giving the impression that the Libyans were involved — details you find in Victor Ostrovsky’s books, and there were many other strange things in the past in connection with various (attempted)bombings (Hindawi affair, lockerbie, 7/7 etc.)

  20. Ed,

    Yet, for some reason, Miranda was supposed to be carrying a copy of some of that data from Berlin to Rio. Why? Could be something mundane like Greenwald had forgotten the key on some of the data or something. Or maybe somebody else has leaked additional material to Poitras. Or what?

    If both Poitras and Greenwald have the whole stash there wouldn’t be any need to courier it between them. So it must be something extra to that. Poitras is in the middle of making a film about whistleblowers (inc. the footage she’s shot of Edward Snowden, obviously) – perhaps it was material related to that film? Or additional materials gathered to help with the analysis of the original documents?

    Greenwald is insistent that David Miranda was NOT carrying a password on a piece of paper, or at least not the password to the Snowden docs:

    Anyone claiming that David Miranda was carrying a password that allowed access to documents is lying. UK itself says they can’t access them.
    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/373451644794449922

    Read the whole thread. I believe him, because this:

    Well-placed source tells me government genuinely worried that it will lose on #Miranda challenge to legality of schedule 7 detention.
    https://twitter.com/JackofKent/status/373431141421690881

    There’s a link within that thread to Miranda’s lawyers’ statement following this latest hearing.

    It stands to reason that GCHQ would not have to “reconstruct” 75 files if they already had the decryption key to 58,000.

    The lying bastards.

  21. “The Niger uranium forgeries are forged documents initially revealed by SISMI (Italian military intelligence). These documents seem to depict an attempt made by Saddam Hussein in Iraq to purchase yellowcake uranium powder from Niger during the Iraq disarmament crisis.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries

    “Blair, moreover, appears to be sticking by the Niger uranium allegation despite the White House retraction”

    http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,463779,00.html

  22. Je, 11.07am

    And if subsequent evidence implicates the rebels… or says it wasn’t a nerve agent…

    If it isn’t Sarin, what is it?
    http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/If-not-Sarin_then-what.pdf

    Dan Kaszeta is the author of “CBRN and Hazmat Incidents at Major Public Events: Planning and Response” (Wiley, 2012) as well as a number of magazine articles and conference papers. He has 22 years of experience in CBRN, having served as an officer in the US Army Chemical Corps, as CBRN [Chemical, Biological, Radiological, and Nuclear Defense] advisor for the White House Military Office, and as a specialist in the US Secret Service.

  23. Arbed… I said “if”. I don’t have a link, as I don’t remember where, but another well-credentialed expert somewhere was saying it was missing some of the features that he would expect with Sarin.

    *

    What might be more effective than a strike would be to leave the promise of one hanging for a long time so Assad’s forces are impeded by having to take cover. Plus a push for a truce, negotiations, peace. But Obama has his prove-myself-tough timetable to keep.

  24. Those who govern us are devoid of anykind of humanity, morals or scruples, being a megalomaniac is indentured into their very being.

    They cultivate their children into their way of thinking, it goes on through their generations, they send them to very expensive schools to out think those who would oppose them.

  25. I’m expecting a big laff in response to this but…does SIS have reciprocal representation at US Intel mtgs?

  26. Je, 11.29

    Sure, I think we’re on the same page. That pdf report – it’s only 6 pages long – is very, very interesting.

    Personally, I think there is far more evidence that whatever the chemical was, it was used by the US-armed and trained rebel forces. That was also the conclusion of the last UN inspector of chemical weapons use in Syria, Carla del Ponte, but there was little coverage of that report in the Western media (quel surprise). What Kerry said about the attack being in a rebel-held suburb is also false.

  27. @Craig

    Infowars? You are linking to infowars? I am taken aback.

    I have just looked at the site for the first time in a very long time. I admit it looks far less carzy than it use to. But I assume you do know alex joneses history. He used to claim all the lizard stuff. He used to show hazy videos of people in the distance jumping around a fire as proof of the iiluminatis dreadfullness. He used to make outrageous claims based more on his own madness than the grain of truth he clings to. He is a clown.

    Either my assessment of infowars as a fucking joke or you as a wise man is fucked. I’d be very interested to know why you think infowars is source worth linking to.

  28. “Intoxicated with hubris from past successful lies and deceptions used to destroy Iraq and Libya, Obama thought the US “superpower,” the “exceptional” and “indispensable” country, could pull it off again, this time in Syria.”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/08/30/america-totally-discredited-paul-craig-roberts/

  29. Arbed – I couldn’t get your link to work but there are links here:

    http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/resources/syria/

    And on that page he puts:

    “At least one commentator has noted that numerous tanneries were located in the area of Damascus where the incident(s) occurred. “

  30. I don’t believe that the zionist colonists are the tail wagging the dog, I think it’s convenient for the US empire to pretend that they are and it’s a version of blaming the contractor. The zionists have been able to extract a higher price for US complaisance only because the other US base – Iran escaped their grasp in 1979.

    Zionist machinations in Syria may have a certain autonomy from US interests but only up to a point Lord Copper. Iran is the prize, pipelineistan will follow if it falls and that’s what Caesar wants.

  31. Phil,

    Presumably you would accept that Alex Jones can be right if asked, for example, what the time is? The material on the reuse of an old photo by Kerry as new evidence appears convincing. It is rather a spurious trick of internet trolling to claim a link implies endorsement of everything the site linked to has ever said.

  32. Je, 11.57

    Ahh! Apparently, the author took it down to revise it with updated info. Here’s the new version:

    What Happened? If it isn’t Sarin, what is it?
    http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pdf

  33. @Craig

    Blimey. My question was sincere. I don’t think I deserve to be called a troll by you mate.

    I did not say you endorsed everything jones says. I was saying he cannot be believed because he makes mad shit up. So to link to him because he has a story you want to believe discredits your judgement.

  34. Someone, still, we can understand now more clearly why fate selected Ed Miliband, rather than his brother, to lead Labour.

    Of course we are all conditioned beings. To be aware of it and live in that constant awareness is our task.

    I disagree with Craig that we should not celebrate. The vote is a victory for the *people* of Britain in *their* overall sense of fairness and lack of support for violence, regardless of the narrow margins within the vote. This is proof that people can make the difference at a political level through simple consciousness. Our task now is for each of us to drill deeper and negate violence at every level. It is an extraordinary opportunity, coming as it is 12 years deep into the era of the GWOT, to build a saner society.

  35. Craig, in addition to your substance, your eloquence, at all times, is to be applauded.

  36. Exellent Post Craig, and an Enlightening new angle on all of this. thank you.

    Heartbreaking what the lying evil bastards are getting away with.

  37. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 12:48 pm

    Off topic but ‘fate’ had nothing to do with Mi(l)lipede Junior’s election. It was the unions’ backing primarily.

    ‘Other senior Labour figures who backed the younger Miliband included former Deputy Leaders Roy Hattersley and Margaret Beckett. By 9 June, the deadline for entry into the Labour leadership contest, Miliband had been nominated by just over 24% of the Parliamentary Labour Party, double the amount required. By September, Miliband had received the support of six trade unions, including both Unite and UNISON, 151 of the Constituency Labour Parties, three affiliated socialist societies, and half of the Labour MEPs.’

  38. Craig – apologies for getting a little bit off topic, insofar as possibly distracting from your main thesis here, namely that the ‘information’ indicating that Syrian government forces recently used chemical weapons was concocted and supplied by the Israelis – which seems surely to be the truth.

    That said,…

    …I’m very surprised to hear what you say about the CIA station chief not attending JIC meetings. When did that practice stop? Can you comment on this article by Stephen Grey in the New Statesman from 2003? He describes a tradition whereby the CIA guy leaves the room before the second ‘domestic only’ part of the meeting.

    On the matter of what happened in the House of Commons, of course it is good to see as many MPs as possible vote against attacking Syria, whichever party they are in. Everyone is very welcome indeed to do the right thing when it is a matter of opposing the slaughter of innocents. But I think the ‘incompetence of the whips’ line sounds as if it was made up

    a) to give members of the chattering classes something to talk about, and

    b) to distract from the real issues, thereby preparing for House of Commons support at a later stage.

    Did the Israelis push too far, having wrongly gauged the level of obedience they could count on?

    Was it a dry run?

    I don’t know. Either might be the case, or a mixture of both. But I don’t believe Labour pulled a fast one. They’re too supine for that.

    Here’s the list of ‘Tory rebels’. How many known relationships to the Conservative Friends of Israel? And to the British or US military or intelligence and security communities? Just wondering…

    David Amess
    Steve Baker
    Richard Bacon
    John Baron
    Andrew Bingham
    Crispin Blunt
    Fiona Bruce
    Tracey Crouch
    David TC Davies
    Philip Davies
    David Davis
    Nick de Bois
    Richard Drax
    Gordon Henderson
    Philip Hollobone
    Adam Holloway
    Dr Phillip Lee
    Dr Julian Lewis
    Jason McCartney
    Stephen McPartland
    Nigel Mills
    Anne Marie Morris
    Andrew Percy
    Sir Richard Shepherd
    Sir Peter Tapsell
    Andrew Turner
    Martin Vickers
    Charles Walker
    Chris White
    Dr Sarah Wollaston

    I doubt the Syrian government did use chemical weapons, because first-order analysis suggests it’s the side that’s losing the war with conventional weapons that would be first to reach into the chemistry cabinet, not the side that’s winning.

  39. @ Someone
    31 Aug, 2013 – 11:49 am

    Further to my comment above, i might add that its a fact that consciousness, unlike nations, knows no boundaries. I would not underestimate the impact of the Commons vote on the desire for common-folk global villagers around the World to end this blasted War on Terror and start a fresh chapter. This may be wishful thinking but it might just prove to be a mutation point.

    It is unfortunate that Obama the Nobel Peace Prize winner (me still laughing/crying after all these years) is unable to turn statesman and take advantage of this opportunity.

  40. Craig 31 Aug, 2013 – 12:02 pm

    “The material on the reuse of an old photo by Kerry as new evidence appears convincing.”

    That is plain old bs. Jones is an internet innovator. He has been selling exaggeration and extrapolation for far longer than I suspect you have been familiar with him. He is very good at it. But he is a liar. I would have thought you would want more than the word of a liar even if the liar presented evidence that “appears convincing”.

    “It is rather a spurious trick of internet trolling to claim a link implies endorsement of everything the site linked to has ever said.”

    This comment of yours fails your own standard that commentaters tackle the substance of an argument rather than attribute motivation to others.

    I am surprised at your belligerence. You have been disingenuous calling me a troll and have displayed an embarrassing lack of judgement by linking to infowars. So we all make mistakes. However, given your pretensions to open debate I am disappointed that you neither present a case for your actions nor accept your mistake with grace.

  41. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:17 pm

    Fascinating piece – and important. Was talking to a friend yesterday who had swallowed the ‘we know it was definitely Assad because of the intercepted messages’ line. It still didn’t make her conclude that we, or anyone, should bomb people in response, but it worried her. She, and most people I know, now just desperately want to help the current victims. Otherwise, no-one can believe the way that Labour’s opposition is being spun and derided as more ‘politicking': it should be seen as a landmark, I think.

  42. “On the 2oth of August, the day before the chemical attack, Press TV’s Youtube account was cancelled by Youtube. According to Press TV this was due to pressure from the Israeli-American Anti-Defamation League (ADL).”

    A large number of the videos claiming to show the victims were also uploaded the day before. The stench of this being a black-op is overwhelming.

  43. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:33 pm

    Phil: It is a fact that the BBC used an old photo from Iraq in 2003 and attributed it to the Syrian massacre has been widely covered. The photographer, whose picture it was has spoken out:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9293620/BBC-News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html

    and elsewhere. The BBC admitted the mistake and withdrew the photograph.

    John Kerry certainly sounds as though he is referring to that picture. “We saw rows of dead in burial shrounds, in white linen…unstained by a single drop of blood”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/31/world/middleeast/john-kerry-syria.html?_r=0

    about four minutes into the speech.

    So perhaps you could check the facts yourself before complaining about them.

  44. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:35 pm

    And perhaps the fact that Kerry uses that picture in the middle of his other ‘compelling’ and ‘clear’ evidence is rather important, don’t you think?

  45. Technicolour 31 Aug, 2013 – 1:33 pm
    “Phil: It is a fact that the BBC used an old photo from Iraq in 2003 and attributed it to the Syrian massacre has been widely covered.”

    The veracity of the story has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I am merely saying that relying on a professional liar as a source is not what I expected from craig.

  46. As regards Alex Jones, he’s a cult leader, not a reliable source of information, he twists the facts to suit his agenda then uses brain washing techniques to make the gullible believe them. I looked into him a while back after someone I knew was convinced the Arctic ice extent was increasing despite the obvious evidence it was decreasing.

    As for Kerry, he didn’t use any photos, I’ve seen video of the speech in question, no pictures were used to illustrate it. He did make reference to photos which may sound similar to the one the BBC was taken in by.

    I wouldn’t believe a word either Alex Jones or Kerry says myself.

  47. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:53 pm

    Phil: except that when you check you see the Infowars piece (not written by Jones, apparently) links to the Telegraph piece (I already knew from other sources but found that link by looking myself). It did not bother to transcribe Kerry’s actual description which is a mistake, journalistically, but not, it seems, factually.

  48. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:54 pm

    Fred: agree about Alex Jones generally.

  49. Technicolour 31 Aug, 2013 – 1:33 pm
    “Phil: It is a fact that the BBC used an old photo from Iraq in 2003 and attributed it to the Syrian massacre has been widely covered.”

    Come off it technicolour you conflated two different stories. You seem to be saying that the media lies so this story by a media liar about the media lying must be true. Do you believe the liar this time just because craig links to it?

    This is important to me because I have often disagreed with craigs conclusions but never previously doubted his integrity.

  50. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:58 pm

    And it’s true that Kerry may not have been referring to the BBC photo: there are other photos of rows of dead in burial shrouds from Syria.

  51. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 2:03 pm

    Phil, no, I never believe anything. I do think that referring to something in a passing comment is not the same as writing an in-depth and researched piece about it, so it wouldn’t make me question someone’s integrity as a result.

  52. Phil
    31 Aug, 2013 – 11:49 am
    “@Craig

    Infowars? You are linking to infowars? I am taken aback.
    ……
    Either my assessment of infowars as a fucking joke or you as a wise man is fucked.”

    A. Craig is not @Craig (at Craig) — he is simply the Craig who he says he is, which we all know. So wrong addressing. And i hand it to him for his courage and persistence.

    B. Good that Craig can see how people here are willing to be disgraceful, loose with their language and dish it out, then suddenly turn thin-skinned when it comes back to them, even with style.

    I mean, come on ” or you as a wise man is fucked” — doesn’t reveal much in the way of preparation for social bearings. So let’s not get into this childish nonsense stuff, which you don’t believe in yourself, of ” This comment of yours fails your own standard that commentaters tackle the substance of an argument rather than attribute motivation to others.”

    My motivation to write here is that *total observation* requires utter and complete clarity. Grace helps too, even in the political world.

  53. Technicolour 31 Aug, 2013 – 2:03 pm
    “I do think that referring to something in a passing comment is not the same as writing an in-depth and researched piece about it, so it wouldn’t make me question someone’s integrity as a result.”

    Fair point with which I agree. I am possibly over egging this because craig responded by calling me a troll and claimed that because jones might not lie about the time he might be true with this.

    However, linking to infowars as a source is ridiculous.

  54. @Villager

    Go fuck yourself you hollow ingratiate.

  55. A post based on solid information – Thank-you Craig.

    Phil – stop whining – “..a spurious trick of internet trolling..” is not calling you a troll in any double take.

  56. Mark Stephen Golding 31 Aug, 2013 – 2:20 pm
    “Phil – stop whining – “..a spurious trick of internet trolling..” is not calling you a troll in any double take.”

    Don’t be daft. Of course he called me a troll. What other possible meaning could he have meant. But, it is besides the point and I will not whine about it again.

    However, I notice you do not tackle the clear point of my comments which is that craig discredits himself by relying on a well known professional liar as a source. Which is no great surprise from someone who regularly confidently asserts the impossible to know as fact.

    Talking of which perhaps you could explain how you know the sas are in syria as you stated yesterday . Don’t get me wrong I suspect they probably are. But you seem to know.

  57. “Phil
    31 Aug, 2013 – 2:13 pm
    @Villager

    Go fuck yourself you hollow ingratiate.”
    _________

    No thanks Phil. Far be it from me to grab your stage. You’re doing a fine job yourself! Carry on….

  58. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 2:51 pm

    The real John Kerry.

    The Blood-Soaked Resumé of a Peace Broker
    What John Kerry Really Did in Vietnam

    by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

    With John Kerry currently in full Henry Kissinger regalia, parading around the Middle East, brow-beating the Palestinians and their allies in the region and Europe into signing onto a deeply flawed peace accord that primarily serves Israeli and American interests, it may prove a useful exercise to inspect the curriculum vitae of this putative peace-maker, especially during those formative years when the Secretary of State first carved out his name in the jungles of Southeast Asia. Though Kerry has a reputation as an anti-war activist, his brief tenure in Vietnam and Cambodia was notable both for acts of casual savagery and his striking lack of contrition for his own participation in atrocities that in a rational society might easily be classified as war crimes.–JSC

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/26/what-john-kerry-really-did-in-vietnam/
    July 26 2013

  59. Phil – ..and compromise a valuable, even cherished source; – Phil you know me better – do you not?

    I am not a ‘Juliet’ of Mr Jones, neither I suspect is Craig. Infowars is a compilation – period.

  60. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 2:53 pm

    Will it be pistols at dawn?

    Russia’s Vladimir Putin challenges US on Syria claims
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23911833#

  61. Brother Nathanael has some well researched presentations on YouTube. He grew up as an American Jew, but converted to Orthodox Christianity:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvmXbFxdaAc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUtBqVgzL_cDv_t9o2hFiXXg

  62. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 3:00 pm

    This should be interesting. See who turns up in 5 days’ time.

    Leaders’ Summit 2013

    Russia assumed the G20 presidency for the first time on December 1, 2012. The G20 is the leading international cooperation forum, focusing on the most important international economic and financial issues. The G20 Leaders’ Summit, to be held in St. Petersburg on September 5-6, 2013, will be the main G20 event of 2013.

    http://www.g20.org/docs/summit/summit_2013.html

  63. Mark Stephen Golding 31 Aug, 2013 – 2:51 pm
    “Infowars is a compilation – period.”

    I’m not sure I get your point: A liar posts an article on his web site. You seem to be saying that because the liar says it was written by someone else then it must be true.

    “Phil – ..and compromise a valuable, even cherished source; – Phil you know me better – do you not?”

    Sorry mate, I don’t know you. I hope you understand that I do not take seriously a commentator on the internet who wants me to simply trust they have insider knowledge about special forces.

  64. BBC News uses ‘Iraq photo to illustrate Syrian massacre’

    All too often we are caught up in our own foibles, and enjoy being ever so condescending about certain others.

    The data can be corroborated, in a very short time, and the veracity or lack thereof can be ascertained without the song and the dance.

  65. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 3:11 pm

    @ Villager

    Good to see you back.

    “It is unfortunate that Obama the Nobel Peace Prize winner (me still laughing/crying after all these years) is unable to turn statesman and take advantage of this opportunity.”
    ______________

    Maybe he will yet. Jeez, give the man time, you musn’t expect open action/reaction within the 24 hours. Don’t you agree?

  66. Passerby 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:09 pm
    “The data can be corroborated, in a very short time, and the veracity or lack thereof can be ascertained without the song and the dance.”

    But passerby the veracity of the story has nothing to do with my point, which is not to rely on professional liars as a source.

  67. “This should be interesting. See who turns up in 5 days’ time.”

    So, the original plan was for the ‘special relates’ to arrive macho-style all chuffed up after another round of bombing. Doubt that Obama will have the balls to take action till after the G-20 meeting where he’ll be trying to bolster his ‘coalition’. And that was probably the real reason why Obama cancelled his one-on-one with Putin, not Edward Snowden.

  68. Phil – OK bruv; solidarity at the next kettle…

  69. Thanks for slowing me down Habby. You were right earlier, wait and see. Have to admit it is a difficult human challenge just to observe. And yes with the G-20 coming up, the UN report still to come, something may happen.

  70. Phil

    “The veracity of the story has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I am merely saying that relying on a professional liar as a source is not what I expected from craig.”

    If the story has been generally verified elsewhere, then Jones is not the source, merely one vehicle for this information.

    Perhaps Craig just linked to the first version of this true story that he came across.

    Not sure why you’re making such a big deal about this.

    You certainly do seem to have a desire to make more of it than is there.

  71. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 3:19 pm

    To inject a little laughter – or at least a snigger – into this rather heated exchange:

    Has anyone else noticed the deliciously oxymoronic name of the White House spokesman : Josh Earnest ?

  72. Phil 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:04 pm
    “Sorry mate, I don’t know you. I hope you understand that I do not take seriously a commentator on the internet who wants me to simply trust they have insider knowledge about special forces.”

    Just to be clear mark I’m not saying you don’t know. I am simply saying it would be foolish of me to believe you. I understand it is difficult for you to counter that even if your source is 100%.

    Perhaps you might be up for trying to prove yourself without in any way compromising your source. Perhaps we could inspect some of your information historically and judge that indeed you are providing impressive information that was later publicly proven true. Can you point to some examples where you have knew before what later became public? A few of those would have me hanging on your every comment.

  73. Herbie 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:18 pm
    “If the story has been generally verified elsewhere, then Jones is not the source, merely one vehicle for this information.”

    Maybe. But it isn’t verified anywhere except for a load of other nonsense sites that have no credibility.

    Anyway, if it is verified elswhere on credible sites then those would be the sites to link to.

  74. Phil

    The story is verified by both the BBC and The Daily Telegraph.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9293620/BBC-News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html

    And more particularly the story is verified in the BBC admitting to its own error in using a false photo.

    Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

  75. The simple fact is that John Kerry did indeed say “We saw rows of dead lined up in burial shrouds.” in his Aug 30 media statement.

    Did Kerry cite the specific details of the image/s of the dead that he claims “we” saw to allow us to independently verify that those images are authentic? No.

    Instead, we are left to our own devices to find those images and, of course, in our research we see the BBC photos that were later retracted when exposed as false.

    What does that say about the Whitehouse’s preparedness to present to the American public and international community with *hard evidence* of the Assad regime’s culpability in using chemical weapons? Especially when proposing a lethal strike against the regime that is likely to cost many lives and many millions of dollars?

    So much of the narrative the US and Co. use when describing this incident includes references to “overwhelming evidence” of use of chemical weapons but then falters on a similarly firm accusation implicating Assad by resorting to limp wording such as “we believe”, “most likely” etc.

    Of course, the only reasonable conclusion for this timid accusation is that there simply is no evidence at all that Assad’s forces were responsible for the alleged attack. And yet they are so eager to launch military action. Why?

  76. “If the story has been generally verified elsewhere, then Jones is not the source, merely one vehicle for this information.”

    The problem is the article doesn’t actually say anything to verify, like Kerry’s speech it just gives people the impression they said something. Reading it you would think Kerry has been caught out using fake photos, after watching a video of the speech you realise there were no photos, then you go back to the article and find they never actually said there were, they just worded it to give that impression.

    Like if you listen to Kerry’s speech you’d think America has proof the Syrian government used chemical weapons but if you examine it closely you find he never actually says that.

    It’s like when George Bush said they had never said Bin Laden and Saddam were connected. Everybody was sure they had but if you looked back it was only ever implied.

  77. Herbie 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:37 pm
    “Phil The story is verified by both the BBC and The Daily Telegraph.”

    You are conflating two stories. Yes I know the story about the misused photograph. The infowars story is about kerry referring to the photo.

    Otherwise I suspect craig would have linked to the bbc or telegraph.

  78. “Of course, the only reasonable conclusion for this timid accusation is that there simply is no evidence at all that Assad’s forces were responsible for the alleged attack. And yet they are so eager to launch military action. Why?”

    Because they found a lot of oil and gas right off the coast of Syria and Russia has a naval base there. They want to build a pipeline across Israel to link the oil terminals in Turkey to the Red sea. Next step in American total world domination.

    Lots of reasons, none of them humanitarian.

  79. “You are conflating two stories. Yes I know the story about the misused photograph. The infowars story is about kerry referring to the photo.”

    But Kerry never actually says he’s referring to that photo, there are loads of photos of dead people in Syria match his descriptions.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=syria+dead&client=firefox-a&hs=WVT&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=xwQiUrXkN9KShQeH8oDABw&ved=0CD8QsAQ&biw=1280&bih=670

  80. The fact that the UK has a marvellous electronic eavesdropping advice in Cyprus is not evidence that other countries don’t have such things.

    Besides, who would be capable of such a chemical attack within Syria’s borders apart from agents of the state?

  81. “Of course, the only reasonable conclusion for this timid accusation is that there simply is no evidence at all that Assad’s forces were responsible for the alleged attack. And yet they are so eager to launch military action. Why?”

    That’s the gas pipeline from Iran, thru Iraq and Syria and onward to the very lucrative European market.

    MOU signed 2011, around the time things kicked off in Syria.

  82. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 4:08 pm

    Long slideshow here starting with today’s Downing St protest and then those before.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23HandsOffSyria&src=hash

  83. The point ultimately, Phil, is that very obviously Kerry is talking total bollocks anyway.

    He doesn’t care about humanitarian issues, and will be quite cavalier in making up his propaganda narrative. Doesn’t even matter so much how full of holes it is. MSM will just muddy the waters.

    Surely you know that already.

    Anything he says wrt the Syrian issue that doesn’t include the gas pipeline and other material interests in the region is by definition bollocks.

  84. @Phil – It’s always struck me as a slight form of inverted snobbery to dismiss the Alex ones show and Infowars as ‘crazies’, whether consciously or otherwise. It’s also strange how some react to a credible well written link when it happens to have been taken from a site they dislike – good links/writers can come from anywhere regardless of your views on the site. Even the Guardian or BBC come up with well written,credible articles and reports every now and then, depending on the writer and subject.

    For what its worth, 90% of the reports on the Alex Jones show/infowars seem credible and are verifiable, 5% might be conjecture and hubris, and possibly 5% is sometimes off target, although usually on the right track. That’s pretty good going in my view – certainly about 90% more credible than the BBC/CNN etc. He’s also an enetertainer and business man and has passion, whether its just for entertainment or not.

    Who knows, he might well be controlled opposition but hes a damn good one if he is. AS with everything, take out the good bits, filter out the bits you’re not so sure with. I’m not defending all his faults and he himself admits that he doesnt always get it right but can you show where he has blatantly and deliberately lied though? I’d be interested to see some proof to those allegations in the interest of fair play. And no, he’s not a lizard believer-can you back up those claims too if possible?

  85. Fred 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:58 pm
    “But Kerry never actually says he’s referring to that photo”

    Exactly. Because jones unambiguously states that kerry is referring to the photo. Jones said “Kerry referenced a photograph used by the BBC”.

    I think fred explains the problem with the infowars article very well above.

    If craig had mentioned kerry and the photo adding his own conclusion fair enough. But he didn’t. He linked to a lying article from a well know joke of a liar.

    Anyway, I didn’t mean to hijack the thread but I strongly believe it is important to avoid the likes of infowars. I have banged on about it too much. In the absence of a direct question from someone I will stop.

  86. “Besides, who would be capable of such a chemical attack within Syria’s borders apart from agents of the state?”

    I don’t think there’s any doubt it was agents of the state.

    Only question is which state.

  87. About Unit 8200 see also

    http://cannonfire.blogspot.be/2013/08/gc-wiki-and-location-of-that-secret.html

    and the article Cannon posted today: The “Trojan” trick: You can’t understand what’s going on now unless you know what happened in 1986

  88. Chris Jones 31 Aug, 2013 – 4:19 pm
    “@Phil – It’s always struck me as a slight form of inverted snobbery to dismiss the Alex ones show and Infowars as ‘crazies’, whether consciously or otherwise. It’s also strange how some react to a credible well written link when it happens to have been taken from a site they dislike”

    Jones exagerrates, extrapolates, misrepresents and lies. He has even lied in the article being discussed today. Jeeesh. He seems to have become slightly more spohisticated with his money making paranoia machine but it wasn’t so long ago that he was claiming the illuminati were lizards dancing around midnight bonfires at bildeburb shindigs. It is not snobbery to not take the word of a liar.

    Well written? Who cares about the style when the very premise is a misrepresentation/untruth.

  89. “Besides, who would be capable of such a chemical attack within Syria’s borders apart from agents of the state?”

    Well, since the “rebels” have already been fingered by the UN for using sarin they can hardly be excluded.

    “UN’s Del Ponte says evidence Syria rebels ‘used sarin'”:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22424188

  90. This is quite a good overview of the Syrian situation:

    “Peak oil, climate change and pipeline geopolitics driving Syria conflict”

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/may/13/1

    When they start talking about humanitarian issues, you know they’re lying.

    And it seems that more and more people now do know they’re lying. I expect that Western leaders are quite shocked that the old two-step between themselves and msm media has now broken down as a way of controlling people’s access to information and even their perception of what leaders have been up to over the years.

    Their narrative of benign intent has been overturned, and on a global scale.

    People will have long suspected that their leaders are not benign, but the change only takes place when people can communicate and discuss with others and in finding out that there’s a whole world of people out there thinking the same thing and experts saying the same thing and facts showing the same thing, it all becomes self-reinforcing and quite liberating. That’s the game changer and I really do believe that govts do not yet fully understand the implications of that change.

    Knowing what I know about that change, were I in govt, I’d be very careful what I said and did.

    There are crimes against humanity being committed now before our very eyes. They can’t be brushed under the carpet any longer, and those who deal in them should be very careful.

    Old certainties can shift very rapidly these days.

  91. Herbie 31 Aug, 2013 – 4:13 pm
    “The point ultimately, Phil, is that very obviously Kerry is talking total bollocks anyway….Surely you know that already.”

    FFS I have said nothing to suggest that I believe anything kerry says. I am saying that I do not believe what jones says. He has even lied in the article being discussed today!

    I can see three explanations for this conversation.

    * I am fucking mental
    * I unable to explain myself
    * You lot are fucking mental

    I hope it is the middle one. Who’s gonna make the shout?

  92. On Alex Jones: Why is it in respectable discussions, like Craig Murray, anyone linking to Jones or Icke, eg, is mocked as a nutter, while linking to know well known, long-time liars such as the BBC, NYT, WaPo, LA Times, Time, Fox, etc. is considered acceptable?

    Especially now that major news is attributed to dozens of sources, unnamed because they are unauthorized to speak on record, or bits grabbed from social media that they can’t verify. For example Assad’s kid’s Facebook, where he mocked Obama. They couldn’t verify it was his page, or if it was whether he’d written it.

    Not to mention the execrable HuffPo, examiner.com, and such, which are mostly copy/pastes slightly rewritten, or unpaid writers pushing their personal agenda, often involving kittens.

    Or the changeable Wikipedia. (US Senate staffer recently caught changing Snowden’s descriptor from “dissident” to “traitor”.)
    Wikipedia itself has a changeable list of acceptable sources,
    At one time DM was not but UK Sun was, eg. Blogs are not, except when written by a mainstream published author, so Craig himself qualifies as a Wikipedia source, but not we barnacles, hanging off the bottom.

    Aside from the main stories in question, are the old MSM media not as full of peripheral BS as Alex Jones; stories on snake oil cures, “new studies suggest fillers,” hyping movies/music from studios owned by their parents, bad investment advice, etc?

  93. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:00 pm

    WRT Alex Jones or Godlike Productions; even a blind hog finds a truffle occasionally. You don’t get cooties when you visit. Like all info, it needs to be corroborated.

    Alex is a stuffed owl trying to scare crows. He’s harmless in context.

  94. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:05 pm

    I do remember the only time Craig has addressed me. I made an oblique reference to Nostradamus, and he apparently sprayed his keyboard with afternoon tea.

  95. Krishnamurky

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:06 pm

    It is no coincidence that Qatar is leading the charge, its Pars gas field (shared with Iran 35%) from which it extracts 80m tons of gas annually, has almost LIMITLESS reserves. The US CENTCOM puppet hamad with a Syria/saud pipeline to the Mediterranean could help wean off Europe from Soviet gas/oil dependency. Bandar went to Moscow to allay Russian fears over this but was rebuffed.

  96. The truth will set you free.
    Access to ‘news’ online is a game changer.
    The ordinary person like myself now laughs at the state news.

  97. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:12 pm

    “The ordinary person like myself now laughs at the state news.”

    Ain’t that the truth? I remember the Dewey Decimal system with much hatred. Going to the card file, finding the section, going to the section, finding the book..gone.

    The internet is the most incredible library. It does provide sensory overload, but if you can filter and are good at key-word searches, you can find almost anything. i love it.

  98. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:22 pm

    The new online editor for the BBC News ME page is Raffi Berg.

    BBC editor urged colleagues to downplay Israel’s siege of Gaza Amena Saleem

    08/30/2013 – 13:34

    The new Middle East online editor for BBC News has been praised by a pro-Israeli website for being “willing to listen to his critics” after he sent internal emails guiding BBC staff to write more favorably about Israel.

    Raffi Berg was promoted to head the BBC website’s Middle East desk earlier this month, having already worked as a journalist with that desk. His emails, which have been posted on a pro-Israeli site, were sent during Israel’s eight day assault on Gaza in November 2012, which killed nearly 200 Palestinians.

    /..
    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/amena-saleem/bbc-editor-urged-colleagues-downplay-israels-siege-gaza

    He joins James Purnell and James Harding who have two of the top jobs.

    Apologists for Israel take top posts at BBC
    Amena Saleem

    23 April 2013
    http://electronicintifada.net/content/apologists-israel-take-top-posts-bbc/12395

  99. Many are commenting elsewhere that the BBC is still in full propaganda mode, pushing the narrative for war, a narrative we already know is cobblers.

    The UK sovereign Parliament has come out against it. The people of the UK are against it.

    To whom does the BBC answer? It’s certainly not Parliament nor the UK people.

    We pay them, but they clearly work to other interests.

    Who is it?

    And where did they find this Dr Rola. They seem to be pushing her quite hard, which only raises further suspicions.

  100. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:34 pm

    O/T They have wheeled out Jane Corbin of Death on the Med infamy to cover the story of the Algerian hostages. She is on TV tonight @ BBC 2 – Terror in the Desert 21.15-22.15

    Also a piece here
    Algeria siege: “I wore a necklace bomb”.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23878183

  101. Krishnamurky

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:45 pm

    @CM – that was quite a passionate speech at Trafalgar Square today, but to no avail, there will be war, we will be gazumped by the gaju ! With millipede voting for war too, just watch as the signals start to be sent beforehand to allow a “free and secret” second vote.

  102. @Phil “(Alex)Jones exagerrates, extrapolates, misrepresents and lies. He has even lied in the article being discussed today. Jeeesh. He seems to have become slightly more spohisticated with his money making paranoia machine but it wasn’t so long ago that he was claiming the illuminati were lizards dancing around midnight bonfires at bildeburb shindigs. It is not snobbery to not take the word of a liar”

    exagerrates, extrapolates for sure – that’s probably needed these days to keep us, the public zombies’ attention. Disagree with the rest of your statement though. He never claimed they were lizards dancing around midnight – as far as I know he was showing the highly dubious rituals that the elite fruitcake elites like to take part in.

    Anyways – are you able to provide definitive proof of his own deliberate lying as you’ve alleged?

  103. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:46 pm

    WILKERSON: Absolutely. I do not see any way, as General Dempsey pointed out, any way that you get anything other than what, for example–and we just walked right over this–what we have in Libya today, which is a haven for al-Qaeda, which has transferred al-Qaeda into the northern part of Mali and caused that state to become unstable, caused us to have to place a drone outfit in that region, for example, widening the so-called war on terror, not narrowing it, not eliminating it, keeping us in a constant state of warfare. So Libya is no example to use.

    For that matter, people are throwing Kosovo out. Kosovo is no example to use.

    Kosovo’s GDP right now is 90 percent criminality–trafficking in humans, in drugs, in arms, much the same way Albania, its sister state over there, is. So these great examples of humanitarian intervention over the last few years are not very positive examples. And Syria, I think, would trump than tenfold. It’d be much worse. We don’t know who’s going to control Syria. And we’re not about to put boots on the ground and occupy that place for ten or 12 years to ensure that whoever controls it, to ensure that their interests are compatible with Israel’s and others’.

    http://www.therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=10652

  104. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:49 pm

    Dr Rola was referred to in the first comment on here earlier today.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1377942849.html

    Hand in Hand in Syria is a UK charity registered in Feb 2012, no. 1145862. It was inaugurated in 2011. There is no financial information and no accounts posted. There are three trustees named.

    Contact:
    FADDY SAHLOUL
    30 WHINLATTER DRIVE
    WEST BRIDGFORD
    NOTTINGHAM
    UK
    NG2 6QS
    Tel: 07512586936
    Email: info@handinhandforsyria.org
    Website: http://www.handinhandforsyria.org.uk

    Trustees
    RAZAN SAHLOUL
    FADDY SAHLOUL
    FADI AL-DAIRI

    http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/find-charities/

    It is a well organized set up with collection points for donations, viz

    http://handinhandforsyria.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=209:big-aid-drop-for-syria&catid=922

  105. The BBC? Watch it from a Scots independence viewpoint. We are forced by penalty of jail to pay for daily British State propoganda.
    The upside is that Scots see the daily misinformation from the BBC for what it is, so now don’t believe their international news.

  106. Putin: US Claims About Syrian Chemical Attack ‘Unimaginable Nonsense’

    Russian President Vladimir Putin slammed the US on Saturday saying that Washington’s allegations about the Syrian regime’s use of chemical weapons against civilians were “unimaginable nonsense.”

    “Common sense speaks for itself – government troops are advancing, in some regions they surrounded the insurgents,” Putin said. “In such conditions, giving a trump card to those who have always been calling for a foreign military intervention is simply unimaginable nonsense.”

  107. Last time round, in 2002/3, there was a Kurdish woman who allegedly had lost lots of memebers of her family to Saddam Hussein’s chemical weapons at Hallabja in the late 1980s. She seemed to get invited onto all the programmes and invariably would scream and yell in an increasingly high-pitched tone at any panellists on, eg. BBC TV show, Question Time, who demurred from advocating invasion of Iraq, in an attempt to make them seem inhuman and to shut them up. I distinctly recall her screaming at Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, for example, who opposed the invasion. I’d never seen her before and never saw her again (after the invasion of Iraq).

    On a perhaps different note, we had the woman who alleged she’d seen Iraqi soldiers tipping pre-term babies out of incubators in Kuwait during Iraq’s 1990 invasion of Kuwait. That story turned out to be wholly false and the woman in question, it transpired afterwards, was a member of the Kuwaiti Royal Family.

    Now we have, for example, the so-called grandly-titled, ‘Syrian Observatory on Human Rights’ – which/who, it seems, is just one person.

    One expects it. It’s the ‘German soldiers eating Belgian babies’ story, over and over again.

  108. I distinctly recall her screaming at Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, for example, who opposed the invasion. I’d never seen her before and never saw her again (after the invasion of Iraq).

    She was an actress, as the data came out later. Although another of the gaggel of women getting paraded around the various studios, who was claiming she was raped by 150 of Saddam torturers is now a minister of the government in Iraqi Kurdistan. Also anyone remember the fat woman who was also claiming rape and torture falling sleep in the studio? That particular sleeping behemoth was duly dropped after getting caught whilst nodding off.

    The simple fact is these fucking liars still believe they can fool we the people over and again. Lying bastards, doing their voodoo

  109. How very interesting, Fedup. An actress! That figures. Yes, you’re right, they imagine they can fool everyone, always.

  110. If you look at the BBC’s timeline on Syria:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14703995

    you can see that what the BBC calls, “Opposition organises”, begins in July 2011, just as Syria, Iraq and Iran sign their MOU on the pipeline deal, 25.07.11:

    http://www.albawaba.com/main-headlines/iran-syria-and-iraq-sign-mou-major-gas-pipeline-385417

    Funny, that.

    And of course the humanitarian crisis grows ever greater from that point on.

    That’s a very direct link between the increased humanitarian crisis and those who oppose the Iran, Iraq, Syria pipeline deal.

    None of this forms any part of the narrative now being used to inflict even more suffering upon Syria.

  111. Thanks for that link Ben, right on topic. Another wise voice of experience speaking out. One forgets how valuable The Real News is.

    It is shocking to see what Saudi Arabia is getting away with. I hope Russia and China can put them on the mat
    _______
    In the same vein, Mary, can we have less TV programme reviews and Companies House search type of data? Why don’t we talk about the dynamics of Saudi Arabian involvement in the whole War on Terror and perhaps their beneficiary Al Nusrah, specifically.

  112. Keep an eye out for a purported Syrian “Dr.” woman who speaks “Street” and supposedly is helping the dying in the Syria. If she has more than two GCSE I will eat hay with a cuddy.

    The drive for war is so sudden and almost frenetic, that beggars the question; why?

    Whose time table is running this operation?

  113. “Also anyone remember the fat woman who was also claiming rape and torture falling sleep in the studio? That particular sleeping behemoth was duly dropped after getting caught whilst nodding off.” Fedup.

    I don’t remember seeing that one! Sounds hilarious. Did she snore? I’d like to watch it now, if it’s now on Youtube – it was a bit early for that, though, wasn’t it?

  114. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 6:41 pm

    Villager; Do you have an opinion on how the Millband/Cameron surprise happened? How is it the USG left that tell-tale ‘evidence’ out of the mix; you know, the one Kerry is so animated about?

    This was a major screw-up/ Or a deliberate attempt to derail the entire process; one that seems a hijacked agenda that even Obama cannot control without help in a defeating effort.

    Are they all really so incompetent? I’m not so sure.

  115. I’m very glad to see that the focus of attention and scrutiny has shifted from foreign matters to both the British government regime and the BBC British regime state tv. They’ve been rumbled and the pantomine is looking more ridicilous and desperate by the day

  116. Chris Jones 31 Aug, 2013 – 5:46 pm
    “exagerrates, extrapolates for sure – that’s probably needed these days to keep us, the public zombies’ attention.”

    Chris, I am not a zombie. I do not want exageration, extrapolation, misrepresntation nor lies to counter lies. I want to know what is going on. Not to be motivated by delusion.

    “are you able to provide definitive proof of his own deliberate lying as you’ve alleged?”

    Well let’s start with the article today. Jones says ““Kerry referenced a photograph used by the BBC”. This is an untruth, a misrepresntation or whatever you want to call it. I call it a lie. Not the biggest lie in the world but still not true.

    Before today the last time I even read jones was last century. His conspiracy industry was ground breaking and I was temporarily fascinated. But it soon became apparent he was an entertainer who said whatever got him the hits. One story I clearly remember was exactly what I have described. He presented a distant unclear video of some people in what looked like weird costumes, across a lake, as the illuminati dancing around a midnight fire at a bildeburg meeting. And yes he did mention lizards. Possibly not a view he strongly holds but maybe said to grab the attention of ike followers. But he said it.

    I also looked at many other things he wrote. I cannot recall any detail now but I found him lacking whenever he spoke of things I knew about or looked into. I just retain the memory that he is not to be trusted. Sorry I know that is unsatisfactory as an answer.

    Maybe he has changed from an entertainer into someone you trust. But that today’s article in not true doesn’t suggest so. Possibly he has simply become more sophisticated as his audience more global. At best he is a propagandist. But I don’t want to listen to propagandists without acknowledging the propaganda even if it is meant to serve a fight I fight.

  117. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 6:53 pm

    ‘In the same vein, Mary, can we have less TV programme reviews and Companies House search type of data? Why don’t we talk about the dynamics of Saudi Arabian involvement in the whole War on Terror and perhaps their beneficiary Al Nusrah, specifically.’

    I will post what I want to, Craig and Jon permitting, thank you.

  118. Ben, on the whole, if you don’t mind my saying so, my long-held observation is that the US audience is generally more gullible and also less prone to blowback on home-turf being an isolated continent.

    As for Obama, i think he really has an opportunity here to demonstrate incremental leadership. I really don’t have enough of a feel for US politics to hazard guesses of outcomes. But we’re certainly living in interesting times — lets wait and see.

    I expect in the UK, people’s interest in politics will increase as a result of the Commons vote.

  119. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 6:56 pm

    “In the same vein, Mary, can we have less TV programme reviews and Companies House search type of data?” (from Villager)
    ____________________

    Yes indeed, and for Heaven’s sake less of the following as well :

    “The new online editor for the BBC News ME page is Raffi Berg.”

    Are we going to start this association of people of the Jewish faith with all the obsessions of Mary and consorts all over again?

    Just for the record, I recommend that everyone take a look at the website I pointed to the other day called “BBC Watch”. That website, as far as I can see, exists to ‘expose’ the ‘anti-Israel bias’ of the BBC (it is, self-evidently, a pro-Israel and even a pro-Zionist website). Read some of the articles and you’ll see that they’re the mirror image of what is written here about the BBC and in my opinion that should give some of you pause for thought….

  120. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 6:56 pm

    31 August 2013 Last updated at 18:55
    Breaking news
    Obama to seek Congress vote on Syria
    US President Barack Obama says he is to seek Congressional authorisation for military operations against Syria

  121. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 7:01 pm

    Villager; Well it was different in the UK in 2002-2003? I’m not talking about the people, I’m saying the case was flubbed….why? Incompetence, or?

  122. NR 31 Aug, 2013 – 4:59 pm

    NR, I largely agree with your comment which makes my position somewhat uncomfortable. For simplicity I will talk in terms of bbc vs jones.

    My contradiction is that I am happy to quote the bbc when I believe it but I do not apply this standard to jones. My immediate reaction is this.

    Craig linked to a infowars story with an incorrect assertion at it’s core that was going unchallenged presumably because the sentiment is acceptable to us. This is a rocky road to ruin. Fighting lies with lies makes as much sense as bombing for peace.

    Craig links to the bbc with the huge caveat that we are all howling “propaganda”! We just need to make sure that a link to jones is equally qualified with scepticism.

    What about an angry youth, no job, no prospects, starting to smell an establishment rat? He might click through from craigs comment. Hey if a former-ambassador, high-profile blogger rates infowars there must be something to it. Craig lends his credibility to infowars with that link and so the youth might start absorbing the enticing shit-up that is alex joneses paranoia.

    Although I do not recant everything I have said today, far from it, I acknowledge the contradiction highlighted by nr. I clealry have a bee in my bonnet which is a sure sign it’s time to stop repeating myself and to pause for some thinking.

  123. Ben, well, for one, Obama said wise words once, “You never step into the same river twice”. Also, I think Blair is/was plain evil.

  124. So Obama asks Congress to make a decision.

    That was unexpected.

  125. Phil,

    I am convinced the story is true about Kerry’s misrepresentation. As someone above surmised, I linked to the first source I could find to link to on this true story. I did not particularly take in that it is Alex Jones’ site.

    I know you are not a troll; but you are doing something trolls do, which is conflate links to true stories with links to false stories on the same site, as endorsement,

  126. CNN now reporting there will be no early recall of House of Representatives. So decision delayed until 9th September at earliest. Senate may come back early though.

  127. “The BBC? Watch it from a Scots independence viewpoint. We are forced by penalty of jail to pay for daily British State propoganda.”

    Bullshit, they don’t get a penny out of me.

    “The upside is that Scots see the daily misinformation from the BBC for what it is, so now don’t believe their international news.”

    Speaking for the entire population of Scotland now are you? Don’t remember seeing it on the news they’d elected you as their spokesman.

  128. Would be extremely grateful Craig if you were able to outline or refer me to the agreement between the UK and the Cypriot Republic under which the GCHQ has installed and operated the Troodos Surveillance facilities.

    Many thanks!

  129. I don’t remember seeing that one! Sounds hilarious. Did she snore? I’d like to watch it now, if it’s now on Youtube – it was a bit early for that, though, wasn’t it?

    Unfortunately it is not on the youtube, but for the record it was during the build up to the Iraq war, and on a Sunday afternoon program on ITV. The Studio was packed with all manner of dignitaries and there she was the prime witness occupying the front row and; nodding off! (never heard her snore, but in all probability she would have snored judging by her bulk)

    The fact that bLiar took the money and went to war has never been much explored either. Although on a poor prime ministers salary with umpteen kids he managed to buy John Gielgud mansion, and none ever asked him how come did he save up that much money?

    The lying sacks of shit, have only the interests of their own pockets and those of their sponsors at heart, the rest is just padding and keeping up the façade of doing some thing for the people.

    Also did you ever see Jessica Lynch landing in US? As it was broadcast on Fox? That was a howler, I was on the floor pissing myself laughing. The body guards equal numbers of men and women, both genders dressed up in black suits, blue shirts, and of course the customary shades about eight to ten of them facing out and shuffling along with the stretcher to the waiting school bus! Pure Hollywood!

    Although I was saddened when I recollected the poor Iraqi Dr. who was trying frenetically to get in touch with the US forces to hand over Jessica Lynch because in his hospital he did not have the medicine or the equipment to look after her, and recanting the story to a camera that he had been rebuffed. Needless to point out that later the same hospital was blown to fuck in the way of rescuing Jessica and it was filmed and broadcast around the globe. Those poor fucking Iraqis were losing another asset for the sake of entertainment of the hamburger munchers back in the land of the fat and the fucking stupid.

  130. A detailed riposte to the US’s allegations – this is the Syrian Arab Republic’s official news agency website. Many of these detailed points are seldom, if ever, discussed on most of our news channels.

    http://sana.sy/eng/21/2013/08/30/500030.htm

  131. fedup: The drive for war is so sudden and almost frenetic, that beggars the question; why? Whose time table is running this operation?”

    That’s been the puzzle from the beginning. The famed military industrial complex doesn’t care if orders for replacement munitions roll in Tuesday or three months from now or next year.

    With President Obama agreeing to consult Congress, the old media is beside itself. An ordinarily left-center radio feed (NPR) quickly interviewed a former Reagan official — didn’t catch name — who worries Obama may suffer the same fate as Cameron and the prestige and credibility of the US is on the line.

    The dangers of democracy. :)

    An advantage for Congress is this gives them an opportunity for the usual bribery in the form of “ear-marked” gifts for their district, perhaps billions for the last two or three holdout votes.

  132. AlcAnon
    31 Aug, 2013 – 7:32 pm
    “CNN now reporting there will be no early recall of House of Representatives. So decision delayed until 9th September at earliest. Senate may come back early though.”

    AA/Ben so what do you see as the implications, broadly?

  133. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 8:55 pm

    Villager; I think the US is caught between Darfur and Iraq. They don’t want to seem insensitive to the Syrian people, but they know it’s a bouncing betty ready to blow their balls off. It is also so we can say ‘We did our best’ to Israel.

  134. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 8:56 pm

    Interesting that Channel 4 give two hours of their Saturday night schedule to a showing of a film of the people’s terror on the streets of Manhattan almost 12 years ago.

    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/102-minutes-that-changed-america

    Similar being planned for the streets of Damascus.

  135. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:02 pm

    We’re all in it together, broadly speaking that is.

    David Cameron ‏@David_Cameron 2h
    I understand and support Barack Obama’s position on #Syria.

    https://twitter.com/David_Cameron

  136. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:04 pm

    ” I did not particularly take in that it is Alex Jones’ site.” Uh, er, well…ok then.

  137. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:11 pm

    An excellent e-mail to Jon Snow Ch 4 News on his latest Snowmail. A hypocrite and a warmonger. To think he used to be considered the champion of the left.

    Snowmail: Putin and his “big dollop of custard”….short email to 6 Pilgers http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1377973696.html

    Snow is known as ‘6 Pilgers’ since Michael White of the Guardian said this of him in January 2012.

    ‘If Channel 4’s Jon Snow can’t be recognised for the national treasure he is – an unabashed leftie who has beaten the system (but also has to compromise, as we all do) – what hope is there? I’d say he does more good for progressive attitudes than half a dozen Pilgers, wouldn’t you?’ :)

  138. In amongst the news reporting of various world incidents is a fundamental principle which does not always support or disagree with views expressed by individuals or groups or Governments. It is the business principle of selling information. What appears in portals, news sites or other information bombarding people is of lesser quality than human ability to filter sensibly what they receive or to simply decide own thought and prespective. You might not believe at first hand a second-hand car salesman. So scepticism is healthy but can also be bad for your health. Especially if the deal proved good but you turned it down.

    I do not believe that Governments per se are intentionally malevolent. In that way I disagree with many views here that take their starting point as assuming that to be the case.

  139. Craig 31 Aug, 2013 – 7:20 pm
    “I know you are not a troll; but you are doing something trolls do, which is conflate links to true stories with links to false stories on the same site, as endorsement”

    Troll is a derogative word that I have tried to stop using myself thanks to points you have made about ascribing motivation. Trolls do many things apart from conflate links as endorsement and non-trolls might question the assertion that a link is not an endorsement. So for you to accuse me of trolling behaviour, twice, is pointed. Would you call a dog that sips milk a cat?

    Secondly, it is not so simple as dismissing out of hand the possibility that a link is an endorsement. Ask google who know a thing or two about the internet. Their business was built on the very fact that a link is exactly that. An endorsement. Not only might your link appear as an endorsement to a real person finding their framework of reference in the internet quagmire, your link to some degree contributes to boosting the alex jones web site in the search engines (and for the technically minded the nofollow tag does not rule this out).

    Finally, you do not address that the article you link to contains an untrue assertion. Sure, you might argue that kerry was cleverly invoking the bbc photo, that’s a fine point, but jones says something different. Jones says kerry mentioned the bbc photo explicitly. Which is misleading and reduces the subtlety of elites propaganda to a falsehood.

  140. Since I haven’t seen Jemand around here for awhile – what made me leave when he joked about deleting my posts – I think that something should be said about John Kerry.

    He has always been willing to say whatever America’s covert government wants.

    Just look at the Senate subcommittee investigating Iran-Contra he headed where it never looked into the arms dealing by Syrian dealer Manzer al-Kassar – who went on to bring down the Pan-Am Flight over Lockerbie when he was threatened with being a fall guy for the fiasco – failing to expose CIA assets in the scandal because of an arrangement he had agreed to with deep government’s Senator David Boren, never exploring the arrangements that Ollie North had made with former SAS Major David Walker’s firms to sock it to the Sandinistas and the Swedes, especially Statsminister Olof Palme, so the struggle with the Soviets would get back on the East-West track, avoided making any mention of Bill Clinton’s and Mena International Airport’s role in the exchange of drugs and money in exchange for arms, particularly from Al-Kassar, etc., ad nauseam.

    Kerry has a most undeserved reputation of being candid and honest.

    In this case, the four-hour lapse between the gas-ladened rockets hitting, and the first reports of victims is what bothers me most. A very long time in which almost anything could have happened, like US Air Force planes spraying the area with phosgene.

  141. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:29 pm

    @Villager

    ““CNN now reporting there will be no early recall of House of Representatives. So decision delayed until 9th September at earliest. Senate may come back early though.”

    AA/Ben so what do you see as the implications, broadly?”
    ____________________________

    The implications are that nothing military is going to happen and there won’t be a war. Not now and not tomorrow. Not at all, in fact.

    You may remember that I was saying this several days ago when Eminences and other commenters were going into a frenzy of speculation, denunciation, apocalyptic ‘statements’ (World War 3 !!)and conspiracy theories based on nothing but their own anti-western obsessions.

    Lot of egg to be wiped off a lot of faces, I think. When will they ever learn?

  142. @Phil It was a woman called Julie Wilson who wrote the article not Jones. The reference to the picture by Kerry does match the 2003 picture wrongly used by the BBC prior to his speech and later taken down by the BBC . The Telegraph covers it here too:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9293620/BBC-News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html

    The old video you mention sounds like a video of the Bohemian Grove retreat for crazy western dictators who, it would be safe to assume, do far more sinister things than dress in funny costumes alone. I agree that healthy scepticism applies equally to any source of information but you haven’t been able to come up with anything solid to back up your specific allegations which then just look like lazy ‘conspiritorial paranoia’ labelling. If you checked all the stories on his or any other site and found that more than 50% are not solid, well sourced reports and are full of spin and misinformation then I would take your point but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t be the case. I’m guessing this would be the kind of percentage when it comes to the BBC however..

    I don’t think its about trust per se. To suggest that people can’t use their discernment to verify stories given out by the Alex Jones Show or anyone else by verifying through as many other sources as possible and making up their own mind is slightly ungenerous to people if i may suggest (I use the term zombies in figurative terms to describe a general mind set brought about by technology and information overload)

    This could go round in circles I know – probably better to use energies on other things

  143. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:38 pm

    ” So scepticism is healthy but can also be bad for your health. Especially if the deal proved good but you turned it down.”

    Not to dally around the edge of your point, but i find paranoia to be highly underestimated, and so I exercise it frequently.

    I may regret a few transactions I passed on because of skepticism, but the losses would be far greater with one less cynical, even naive. Most people choose information and products based on their impression that everyone, whether in advertising or information sales in general, that they are being gipped; it’s a question of degree. When I see an ad for a juicy bacon burger that stands 6-8” tall, I know I’m not going to get the picture burger, so I am ready to accept less. The false advertising becomes so systemic that you quit objecting and adjust to reality.

  144. Mr Mason

    “I do not believe that Governments per se are intentionally malevolent. In that way I disagree with many views here that take their starting point as assuming that to be the case.”

    It’s not so much a starting point. It’s much more a theory about the use of force.

    Hasn’t been wrong yet, and the facts that fit it are piling up in this case too.

    I think if you took yourself on a tour around all those for whom Intl Relations is their bread and butter, you’d find them using a similar theory, otherwise they’d all quickly run out of bread and butter, and that reall would be a humanitarian crisis.

    Habby

    You’re very keen to defend the BBC. Do you work for them or have some compact or contract with them?

    If so, I think it’s only fair to declare an interest and absent yourself from any further discussion of them.

  145. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:40 pm

    Howdy Trowbridge; You nailed Kerry the poseur.

  146. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:41 pm

    “I do not believe that Governments per se are intentionally malevolent. In that way I disagree with many views here that take their starting point as assuming that to be the case.”
    ____________

    Very well said.

    Since coming onto this blog I’ve been continually surprised by the way in which most of the Eminences appear to believe that governments are actively (even sadistically) engaged in plotting to grind their peoples down into poverty, slavery and even death. And that all govt foreign policy is evil, rascist, only concerned about energy resources, et cetera. Naturally, all the foregoing applies only to western govts (Russia, China, and most of the rest of the world are good guys).

    I hope you’re not expecting your excellent comments to start off a reasoned discussion, are you?

  147. did he actually specificaly reference that pic? I qoute his speech http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2013/08/213668.htm

    And we know it was ordinary Syrian citizens who reported all of these horrors. And just as important, we know what the doctors and the nurses who treated them didn’t report – not a scratch, not a shrapnel wound, not a cut, not a gunshot wound. We saw rows of dead lined up in burial shrouds, the white linen unstained by a single drop of blood.

    doesn’t seem so, unless they changed the speech

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGtWytda1Rk nope, at 6 mins

    how can we trust your judgement craig

  148. Chris Jones 31 Aug, 2013 – 9:36 pm
    “This could go round in circles I know”

    I don’t see a circle. I believe the point I am making is important.

    “probably better to use energies on other thing”

    Agreed. I’m going for a pint. I’ll pop back after chucking out in an alcohol fuelled rage.

  149. they suggested he referenced that pic (which has been misused before) and then debunked themselves.

  150. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:49 pm

    @ Herbie

    “You’re very keen to defend the BBC. Do you work for them or have some compact or contract with them?

    If so, I think it’s only fair to declare an interest and absent yourself from any further discussion of them.”
    _____________________

    Closer reading and more thought required, Herbie.

    I’m very keen to point out that just as nobody on here appears to think that the BBC is anything other than a pro)-Israel and anti-Palestinian propaganda machine run by Zionists, so there are websites consisting entirely of articles and comments accusing the BBC of systematically treating Israel unfairly and in a biased manner, the BBC being run by left-wing pro-Palestinians.

    So, having clarified that, Herbie (have you understood?) I think it’s only fair that I should not absent myself from further discussion of the BBC when necessary.

  151. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:50 pm

    “Since coming onto this blog I’ve been continually surprised by the way in which most of the Eminences appear to believe that governments are actively (even sadistically) engaged in plotting to grind their peoples down into poverty, slavery and even death. And that all govt foreign policy is evil, rascist, only concerned about energy resources, et cetera. Naturally, all the foregoing applies only to western govts (Russia, China, and most of the rest of the world are good guys)”

    Yes. You’ve been consistent in your call for optimism on related matters, but other than the most abstract positions, you seem reticent to express any opinion about Syria that has some concrete in the formula.

    Should Obama send missiles or diplomats to solve the equation?

  152. Ben. I doubt you wish to relegate the point I made to Falling Down (Michael Douglas) proportions. The point I was making was whether we ask ourselves when faced with fear/scepticism whether the loss we incur was a good deal. Human being attitude is a phenomenon which affects all decision making. Any human decision made is not made scientifically or in a way which can be clinically observed.

  153. “The reference to the picture by Kerry does match the 2003 picture wrongly used by the BBC prior to his speech and later taken down by the BBC .”

    Which part of the speech was that? I heard nothing in the speech to suggest it was the BBC picture rather than one of the others. I would have thought the phrase “we have seen” to an American audience suggests something which was shown on American TV not a British web site.

  154. The implications broadly are that these dogs of war have been bending the knee a tad to democracy.

    First, Cameron, then Obama, then maybe the froggyman

    Could be, as I said a few days ago that this is Russia’s red line too, and this democracy malarky is the West’s way of saving face with their peeps.

  155. Herbie. I do not believe that a theory of force is the right starting point to understand international relations. History offers us instances which stand out as examples of change which have come about through force. But better examples, I believe, can be offered by those instances which offer future peace. We can select those examples if we choose and use them proactively. Abolition of slavery is an example. Nations responsible had a chance to forever feel indebted or to drive the ambition required for abolition. With a similar attitude I do not feel that we need to be so bleak.

  156. Habby

    You haven’t answered a very straightforward question about relationships you may have to the BBC.

    Easy enough to say yes or no, I’d have thought.

    No need for blather, just yes or no.

    What’s the problem.

  157. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:17 pm

    ” Any human decision made is not made scientifically or in a way which can be clinically observed.”

    James; If you could give a concrete example. I am lost in Samsara.

  158. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:18 pm

    @ Ben Franklin

    May I suggest you re-read (and digest) a post from John Spencer-Davies on the previous thread (22h51 on 30/08)?

    It contains excellent advice and you should in fact remember it, since it was a reply to a somewhat insolent query from your goodself on why Mr Spencer-Davies doesn’t post more often.

    You and others should perhaps take his advice to heart and then we’d have a little less ill-informed speculation and fewer displays of hysterics on Syria. Not to mention the need for face, wiping egg off therefrom.

  159. @Fred – This seems to match to me. There was also alleged to have been a two minute lag on his ‘live’ speech so further edits could have been made:

    “..childre lying side by side, sprawled on a hospital floor, all of them dead from Assad’s gas and surrounded by parents and grandparents who had suffered the same fate.”

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/08/john-kerrys-case-for-bombing-syria.html

  160. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:23 pm

    @ Herbie

    You’re right, I didn’t answer.

    The answer is no.

    Your own opinions as expressed through your various posts impel me to ask if you have a relationship with any left-wing or anarchist grouping or with Occupy? A simple yes or no will do.

  161. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:26 pm

    “ask if you have a relationship with any left-wing or anarchist grouping or with Occupy? A simple yes or no will do.”

    Nope, not me. Now about that Syria question; What to do? You have lots of good ideas, I’m sure. we just don’t get to review them for efficacy because you never commit…..to anything…..except maybe positive thinking.

  162. Ben. No concrete example. Brain and concrete do not mix. Even the best concrete mixers won’t offer that kind of service. Unless they are contracted.

  163. And I don’t think that Israel, for once, had much to do with it – it was Joe Biden;s doing, thanks to the role that he, and his son Beau, Delaware’s Attorney General, played in the murders and cover ups of what happened to John P. Wheeler III and Ali-Resa Pahlavi, the heir to the Iranian throne.

    Wheeler learned that the US Air Force was going to use its gas spraying-planes to set back Tehran’s WMD efforts so that a new START treaty could be agreed to, and tried to tell Pahlavi about it, but NSA learned what he was attempting, and bushwhacked him when he went to meet in Wilmington what he thought were the Shah’s agents,

    The NSA’s Special Collection Service had set Wheeler up by making it look like he was involved in entrapping and kidnapping Iran’s arms smugglers, and that he was working to expose the poison=spraying by speaking out about what the Air Force had done, apparently accidentally, to bird and fish around Arkansas and Louisana.

    The only trouble with Wheeler’s murder was that his body was accidentally found, making it necessary to kill Pahlavi, making it look like suicide, for fear that he would speak out about what had happened to Wheeler.

    I revived this whole scandal when I restarted a thread on The Local in July, stating that I had been taken in by the series that John Shiffman wrote for The Philadelphia Inquirer, making it look like Wheeler was involved in ICE’s operations, and the Iranians killed him, when, in fact, NSA’s SCS did it too.

    This got Joe Biden hurriedly involved in gassing Syria, and his son feigning physical problems for his father so that attention would again be diverted away from Wheeler’s and Pahlavi’s fate.

    And these killings were instrumental in Edward Snowden finally deciding to blow the whistle on the runaway NSA.

  164. Mr Mason

    The Abolition of Slavery is not a very good example of the system benign.

    Have you any other examples?

  165. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:31 pm

    Trowbridge; Lurch’s (Kerry) statement of evidence is the direct result of this.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/28/israeli-intelligence-intercepted-syria-chemical-talk

  166. @Chris Jones

    The BBC picture didn’t show children lying side by side on a hospital floor, no parents and grandparents. Just white body bags which seem to be out in the open, some sort of square or yard maybe.

  167. Herbie. I do believe the abolition of slavery was a turning point. I accept your view that it seems benign. But I prefer to see the forward propulsion which it achieved beyond the cycle of recrimination which could have pressed a pause button on human rights evolution. Mistake and error are inevitable. Learning from them is key in my view. But also being able to spot when an error will allow a genuine transformation. Beyond what sceptics see as a reason for delayed retribution. That does not mean I believe in rash judgement. Quick justice is not beyond qualitative justice.

  168. foolish finking

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:44 pm

    1) Interesting thread this one with the discussion between Craig and N and also this point about Phil being upset for Craig taking umbrage with him for having referenced Alex Jones. I also thought blimey why is Craig sourcing from there. We spend time and energy looking for reasons to doubt or trust a source of information as once there is trust we hope to shortcut the process of verifying the information (though in reality I doubt we really ever do verify it) .

    Of course given that I like most people have not got a cat’s hope in hell of verifying facts in international disputes I am left with the options of a) turning my back on it all, b) trusting the state message ( blunt or subtle with its internal dialogue), c) reading the state message and oppo propaganda, d) reading all states propaganda and unofficial sources many of which may be some degree of state prop or misinformation. People here seem to try to follow d), but how to interpret the contradictions. The traditional human weakness is to believe what others repeat. Even those who say they are independent thinkers tend to look for others of their ilk and see what is repeated by those who they respect. Maybe there appears to be some sense in that for without actually access to the facts trust in sources is key, and so I see the reason for Phil’s questioning. At the end of the day as this is about war and uncertain facts. Therefore credibility of those making assertions is vital. However, is it perhaps the case that we always delude ourselves when we decide whether we have properly checked out a source of info. Probably we are only asking ourselves whether we id with the maker of the statement and if so we accept what they say. Can’t really get away from that tribal factor in our thinking.

    2) Good to see a vote taking place in the US. Of course voting is not something which features in The Art of War.

    3) This “oldest ally comment”: was John Kerry referencing French assistance in the War of Independence?

  169. Thanks for that response, habby.

    I think much of mainstream media is more or less the same these days. You work for one, you work for the other.

    So, are you involved in any media more generally which might colour your view of the BBC, such that you ought to declare an interest and absent yourself from any further discussion of them?

    I’ve only been drawn to this since you earlier presented the rather dimwitted defence of them that they often use themselves.

  170. Thanks, Ben, for the link, but one would have to be daft to believe it.

    Given what has happened over the world during the last six months when it comes to states, especially Western ones, eavesdropping on all communications, only a Syrian engaged in overthrowing the Assad regime would dare to even imply the prospective use of chemical weapons.

    The Israelis are just lying to help set back Lurch’s peace efforts with the Palestinians.

  171. @Fred – This is the alleged photo anyhow http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9293620/BBC-News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html Political poetic licence could well have been used in the description although I don’t know if this photo was actually shown at the actual venue of the Kerry speech or not. I think this is slightly missing the main point though, which is that everything seems to be based on hear say and the usual misleading rhetoric..

  172. @Chris Jones

    Yes, I have seen the picture, that is how I know it isn’t a picture of children on a hospital floor.

    No that picture nor any other picture was shown at the Kerry speech.

    Here is a picture of children lying on a hospital floor, I have seen other similar pictures in the news shortly after the event.

    http://www.channelstv.com/home/2013/08/23/un-chief-troubled-by-syria-chemical-weapons-report/

    Wouldn’t you say that picture better matches the Kerry description than the BBC picture?

  173. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 11:02 pm

    “The Israelis are just lying to help set back Lurch’s peace efforts with the Palestinians.”

    Trowbridge; You’re losing me. Are you saying the Israelis are neutral on Syria, and by way of context, Iran?

  174. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 11:12 pm

    OT. Believe it or not, this came up on Facebook

    http://wikispooks.com/wiki/The_Maltese_Double_Cross

  175. Hullo Craig,

    Very good. But of course your point here needs to stand as a bookend with the beyond obvious unlikelihood of Assad as logic-less and idiotic inviter of his own demise. I know that there’s no end of people keen to tell us that Muslims are crazy, logic-defying, hell-bent loons who perpetually act against their own best interests, but Assad? Really? As for your new (and welcome) revelations I still the think the obviousness of Assad-as-not a-loony is doing all the heavy lifting with your piece here coming in merely as support for that.

    May I make a point that you don’t? Say we were the police and we had in our custody a fellow whom we knew had made a deliberate false accusation against someone we also knew hadn’t commited a murder. And let’s not be shy: an act of mass murder, to wit the horrific gassing of hundreds of women and children. Anyway, where would our well-founded suspicions now fall? Wouldn’t they fall on the individual keen to point us elsewhere? How could they not?

    Someone killed hundreds of women and children in cold blood. Why would we shy away from the fellow who thought it fine to blame someone else?

    Furthermore I ask the question: Is cui bono a dirty word? Here you don’t actually cite cui bono but make an effective cui bono argument regardless, and all in support of the case for a false allegation. And hats off to that but doesn’t that self-same of case for cui bono stand in precise support for the question of who committed the atrocity?

    And further to that, and in keeping with the police/crime analogy, given that the correct response to a murder is to punish the culprit, and given that the punishment in this case is to rain missiles down upon that culprit (don’t argue, our politicians have told us it is so), why oughtn’t we to be demanding that Israel be on the receiving end of a military response? Clearly all the hysterical moralistic high dudgeon of the West must be directed at someone. An horrific crime was committed. A guilty party exists. And that party has foolishly told us who they are.

    There’s no need for anyone to get their nose out of joint. Nothing I’ve said here is very shocking. It’s merely me agreeing with the government’s case for the rightness of military intervention.Frankly I’m with them. I think we should do it.

  176. Mr Mason

    Have you any criticism to make of the work of Noam Chomsky?

    I think he’s very good in documenting the facts as they’re recorded in official literature, and challenging the mainstream literary, media, movie narrative, which is only ever a fictional construct, even when it calls itself “News and Current Affairs”

    Who comes closest to your way of thinking, school, whatever?

  177. @Fred – Out of basic respect to all those involved let’s leave it there. Neither of us have a way of knowing exactly which picture/s Kerry meant but I think we can both agree that the guy is trying to use the same old nasty techniques to launch another illegal attack

  178. “Out of basic respect to all those involved let’s leave it there. Neither of us have a way of knowing exactly which picture/s Kerry meant but I think we can both agree that the guy is trying to use the same old nasty techniques to launch another illegal attack”

    Of course he is.

    That’s no excuse for abandoning truth for the propaganda we’d prefer to believe. That makes us no better than he is.

  179. Nobody, I agree that if one’s view is to bomb Israel, one should not be shy of making the point. But I prefer diplomatic solutions in all cases – if Israel is guilty of using CW in Syria, then they should be internationally isolated, and perhaps have economic sanctions applied.

    However, even before that, we would need the same very high standard of proof that has recently been demanded of the claim that it was Assad. I’m willing to look at such evidence, but cui bono in itself isn’t very satisfactory. That could in itself be another false flag, by people who wished to pin something upon the Israelis.

  180. foolish finking [was: frank fool]

    31 Aug, 2013 - 11:33 pm

    Re: our oldest ally

    In the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), France fought alongside the United States, against Britain, from 1778. French money, munitions, soldiers and naval forces proved essential to America’s victory over the Crown, but France gained little except large debts.

    Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War

  181. (Foolish Finking, Frank Fool – please stick to one handle, thanks.)

  182. i am saying the Israelis are happy to fabricate messages for Washington to get rid of Syria, and set back the Iranians and Hezbollah, and in return they will have less problem with the Palestinians.

  183. foolish finking was frank fool

    31 Aug, 2013 - 11:44 pm

    The Franco-American alliance refers to the 1778 alliance between Louis XVI’s France and the United States during the American Revolutionary War. Formalized in the 1778 Treaty of Alliance, it was a military pact in which the French provided many supplies for the Americans. The Netherlands and Spain later joined as allies of France; Britain had no allies. The French alliance was possible once the Americans captured a British invasion army at Saratoga in October 1777, demonstrating the viability of the American cause. The alliance became controversial after 1793 when Britain and France again went to war and the U.S. declared itself neutral. Relations between France and the United States worsened as the latter became closer to Britain in the Jay Treaty of 1795, leading to an undeclared Quasi War. The alliance was defunct by 1794 and formally ended in 1800.

    wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-American_alliance

    Sorry Jon, but fools have short memories.

    Also sorry everyone else for these somewhat off topic digressions.

  184. Herbie. Hard to say. And people i admire are doubtless out of my league. I admired Vaclav Havel. I recall in the early 90s his incredible act of pulling down the ropes to lay flowers, fresh from the airport, at a monument in Prague despite strong political opposition at the time. This was a determined act of personal quality not a political gesture. There was only one paper to capture the moment and it was everything he still stood for. I was taken by the moment and it still reminds me of what I should hold close to me. Conviction but also value and principle.

  185. This is something that isn’t mentioned much in modern history either: Washington DC, Sept 24 1863 – The day when Tsar Alexander II arrived with the Russian Fleet and saved Lincoln from the Britisn and French in the civil war

    http://tarpley.net/2013/08/17/sept-24-evening-to-mark-arrival-of-russian-fleet-in-1863/

  186. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:03 am

    ” That could in itself be another false flag, by people who wished to pin something upon the Israelis.”

    It could be a typo, but you said those who wish to bomb Israel; no one has said that, of course.

    Do you think Israel has a dog in this fight, other than the Palestinian question? ( I feel like goin doun the rabbit hole, here)

  187. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:08 am

    Sorry Trowbridge; That doesn’t answer the question.

  188. This is a great contribution and I hope it will make those who are getting ready to go to another illegal war think again.

  189. foolish finking was frank fool

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:10 am

    Apologies again about history, but CJ’s Russian C19 assistance story is interesting. Russia / Aleksandr Baranov had the Russian American Co in C19. I remember reading something about how the purchase of Alasaka was essentially to compensate Russia for its assistance. In that sense the Russians may at that time have considered that they had done better than the French, although in retrospect it wasn’t such a good move selling Alaska.

  190. technicolour

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:11 am

    FFFF: I had a small, doubtless unworthy, pang on seeing the headline ‘France Now America’s BF’. Thanks for the information that last time
    “France gained little except large debts”.

    JM: “why oughtn’t we to be demanding that Israel be on the receiving end of a military response? Clearly all the hysterical moralistic high dudgeon of the West must be directed at someone. An horrific crime was committed. A guilty party exists. And that party has foolishly told us who they are”.

    Are you quite sure that this is a logical response to your, admittedly logical, premise? Unless you stood to make money out of this ‘military response’, or really didn’t mind killing people (reading Richard Burton on Somalia was very instructive) what would persuade you that this was a good idea? That by becoming guilty of causing some deaths you might be exculpated by the fact that you prevented more deaths? I have to say that such views hold only a minor place in a representative democracy.

  191. Clearly Putin has had a word in the shell like ears of a certain warmonger prezident, and it seems for the time being suddenly the notions of democracy begins at home have prevailed.

    The question remains, on whose time table is this latest brouhaha is taking shape?

    Why the hurry?

  192. How do we know for sure, that these communications weren’t available to the British Joint Intelligence Committee? We’re talking about intelligence. It isn’t exactly something that’s completely transparent to the public.

    Also, as we know, they are soaking up massive data per day. The intelligence analysts are looking for “needles in haystacks.”

    As effective as Troodos capabilities may be, maybe they weren’t able to connect the dots right away.
    Although it “might not” have the capabilities of Troodos, perhaps Israel, being more involved in Syria, and having already performed strikes in Syria, is more threatened by it than the UK is, and has more resources and focus there.

  193. So, it’s official – Vladimir Putin is now the leader of the free world.

    Cameron was shafted by Obama, they are now citing the debacle (which surely will generate resignation at the most senior level; Hague.) on ‘gears being out of sync’, to me it looks like all part of the master plan. Obama now just wait’s and see if the owned congressmen really want to take the responsibility, along with the voter unpopularity (no chance), of attacking Syria. I’ve really enjoyed watch this play out – I still can’t beleive that people are saying that Obama is owned by the Israelis – even they must be fucking speechless.

  194. technicolour

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:21 am

    “How do we know for sure, that these communications weren’t available to the British Joint Intelligence Committee? We’re talking about intelligence. It isn’t exactly something that’s completely transparent to the public”

    Nor did Kerry hide that fact. Nor would Cameron, had he been in possession of the information, which JIC would have passed on. In which case the debate would have changed to ‘We have this dramatic proof it was Assad and now all we have to decide is what we do about it’.

    Perhaps it was rushed here, and that’s what we’ll get next. Perhaps it’s all a sting to put Gove in. It doesn’t feel like this is playing well with the public, either way, and it certainly hasn’t caused the reaction a plotter would have expected. The Times (Gove and Murdoch like each other) are banging the ‘Britain is humiliated on the world stage’ drum but nobody I’m talking to on the streets agrees: they are very proud of our parliament.

  195. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:25 am

    “Cameron was shafted by Obama,”

    I’m sure Cameron has a different view. Give Millband some credit. Tamp down the anti-americanism, just for the sake of brevity in your comments.

  196. technicolour

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:26 am

    When I say ‘the information'; I mean ‘the information we are being given but cannot check and have some reason to suspect’.

  197. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:27 am

    “Why the hurry?”

    That’s the million quid question, fedup. Iraq should be instructive as historical constext, but seems lost in the din of discussion.

  198. London/Paris/Tel Aviv/Ryahd/Doha: “Hey Obama, what you waiting for? When are you going to start bombing, France is waiting and we need the pictures so the media stop saying we are all failures.”

    Washington: “Yeah, yeah, the bombs are on there way. Just some minor hitches, nothing to worry about…what?… what?… I cant hear you…. it’s a bad line…………[hangup]”

    London/Paris/Tel Aviv/Ryahd/Doha: “WTF? shit! shit! shit! FFS. OK, someone call the Russians. Fuck off, you do it. Nah, you started it. Listen, we’ve all gotta start sucking some serious Putin dick now. FFS!”

    International politics for beginners.

  199. technicolour

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:37 am

    Well, maybe they really believe it was Assad, or part of Assad’s tribe, and really think they should be doing something about it, and they can, because he’s not an ally, and sadly their minds turn to bombs.

  200. technicolour

    1 Sep, 2013 - 12:39 am

    (some of them)

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