Don’t Celebrate Yet

by craig on August 30, 2013 8:47 am in Uncategorized

There is no obvious reason why the Western powers should care whether it was the friends or the family of Mohammed which took over the leadership of his movement upon his death.  However there is plainly an agenda led by the USA to support the Sunnis in their spiralling regional conflict with the Shia.

This is not hard to rationalise.  The ultra wealthy members of the Gulf regimes continue to act as the West’s proxies in the region and provide  harbour to its neo-imperialist armed forces, while at the same time maintaining themselves a obscurantist version of Islam which would have horrified Mohammed and breaks virtually every precept of the Koran, particularly as regards treatment of women and of minority religions within their territory.

In Bahrain the large Shia majority is brutally repressed with active western collusion; in Saudi Arabia the Shia minority in the East is degraded.  Iran is the great Shia bogey, and the West is so determined to maintain it as “the enemy” that they refuse the most basic diplomatic openings.  The UK turned down an invitation to be represented at the inauguration of a new more moderate President and hold initial conversations.  Meanwhile, Shia groups have mustered the only effective military resistance to Israeli aggression, and in Syria a Shia friendly regime is under intense pressure from the West and its Gulf allies.  Peculiarly, in Iraq Western invasion resulted in the installation of a Shia regime, but that was only one of the entirely unforeseen consequences of that most stupid of invasions, and the Western response is to try to split up the country and fuel multiple insurgencies.

Meantime the CIA have now got a controlled and pro-Israeli military dictatorship back in power in Egypt, while the extraordinary complicity of the mainstream media and entire political class in the United States has never been more evident than in the acceptance that the military coup will not be designated a military coup.  The manipulation of Western public opinion in the Syrian chemical weapons episode has, rarely, been too blatant to work.  But events in Turkey and Egypt have shown that western public opinion is easily manipulated by the “secularist” angle.  No matter how ugly political forces are – and in Turkey the Kemalists are very ugly – call them “secularist” and hide the rest, and you can attempt to topple elected governments in their favour with the full throated support of the media cheerleaders.

Last night’s vote in the Commons is welcome, but a blip.  It owes more to political tribalism than to principle.  Miliband and New Labour did not oppose military action, they merely wanted to be seen to be dictating the terms.  As neither Tories nor Labour were prepared to accept the other’s terms for military action, the anti war minority could combine with the tribalists of each to make sure everything got defeated.  Good but fortuitous.

The media are still in full war cry.  Ashdown has never been so ashamed, apparently.  He is not ashamed by extraordinary rendition and our torturing people.  He is not ashamed of our responsibility for the death of hundreds of thousands in Iraq, with 2,000 people a day still meeting terrible deaths.  He is ashamed that we don’t respond to the deaths of children by chemical weapons, we don’t really know at whose hands, by blasting to pieces a lot more children.  Well, Paddy, you are a merciless fool who thinks a spiral of death is the answer, and I have never been more ashamed that I was for most of my adult life a member of the Liberal Democrats.

Ashdown did say bitterly that there was now no point in having such large armed forces.  Hallelujah!  The danger to the establishment that people might realise that spending more on weapons systems than on hospitals is a poor choice, is one reason this is not over.  Much is at stake for the security state.  Expect a mounting barrage of propaganda on the need for action in Syria.  This is just the start.

 

 

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320 Comments

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  1. Horace Swanson

    30 Aug, 2013 - 8:53 am

    Isn’t Pantsdown dead yet? What a nauseating thing he is. Someone should dig a hole for the likes of him and Kinnock.

    Pantsdown’s performance as a witness at the Milosevic show trial was a perfect illustration of his self-regard which eclipses all reason.

  2. All the same, can we please celebrate a bit? Even if Parliament did the right thing for all sorts of reasons, quite a few of them wrong on individual merits, the end result is a good one.

    Gove, Fox, Hammond and Ashdown made complete twits of themselves, as did a couple of the Conservatives reading their scripts from Central Office. They look far sillier than David Cameron who put up a good fight and was adult and noble in defeat.

    My “Player of the Match” was Caroline Lucas (Green MP).

    Obama today looks like the emperor with no clothes. Exposed for what he is. An eloquent well educated powerless puppet in an expensive suit – sponsored by Saudi princes and manipulated by Israeli hawks to get regime change in Syria, then Iran next.

  3. I am not convinced that Shia fascists are much to be preferred to Sunni fascists or Alawite fascists or Saudi fascists. None of them are democrats , none believe in freedom and they all discriminate against women

  4. I think you meant 2000 people a month in Iraq Craig?

  5. “Government sources say Ed Miliband is a ‘copper-bottomed s***’ who ‘changed his mind’ on Syria”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-sources-say-ed-miliband-is-a-copperbottomed-s-who-changed-his-mind-on-syria-8789496.html

    Not bitter then? Milliband had no choice, he simply recognised that he would have lost along with Dave. I suspect Miliband has been in touch with members of Obama’s team over the last few days. Dave tried to be Obama’s best mate but Obama simply dosen’t like or trust the ‘fucking lightweight’, although that decription looks a bit flakey seeing the amount of lard he’s been piling on recently….

  6. I’d agree re the fortuitous comment. If the amendment vote had been second then I suspect it might have gone through. Are amendments always voted on before the main vote?

  7. What will it take for the Mugs un power to really open full diplomatic, open, honest,un biases diplomacy.

    Old father time himself bellowing from the heavens.

    Chances of that happening.

    Please let peace prosper.
    Thanks Craig

  8. The source was claimed to have said: “No 10 and the Foreign Office think Miliband is a f****** c*** and a copper-bottomed s***. The French hate him now and he’s got no chance of building an alliance with the US Democratic Party.”

    Sour grapes –> “he’s got no chance of building an alliance with the US Democratic Party”

    If Dave can’t do it Ed can’t seems to be the message, but I think he already did. Why this Thursday? Because Obama told Dave to. Obama is well happy that the pressure to act has been wiped out overnight.

  9. Haward

    I did not intend to imply any preference between Sunni and Shia. I have none. I just am puzzled that Western governments appear to.

  10. Polly Tickle Yoke

    30 Aug, 2013 - 10:04 am

    “As the debate hots up in Parliament about Syria, Prime Minister David Cameron says we know the regime has Chemical Weapons, as we still have the receipts from when we sold them to prove it.”

    Allegedly

  11. “Obama today looks like the emperor with no clothes. Exposed for what he is. An eloquent well educated powerless puppet in an expensive suit – sponsored by Saudi princes and manipulated by Israeli hawks to get regime change in Syria, then Iran next.”

    He is no saint but he is not a G. W. Bush either. He is without doubt a politician who knows exactly what he’s doing and he’s not going to get the US involved in Syria when their is no clear obective or advantage for the US. He may throw a few cruise missiles in but he knows that it is all just for show and it is not inconceivable that he could do a deal with Russia to allow for such a limited repsonse. The Israelis have repeatedly attacked Syria with ‘unusual’ ordnance and it has had very little effect and Syria has not carried out it’s promise of retaliation. Politics is a murky old world best left to the grown ups.

  12. It has already started with the BBC’s reports of Napalm, strange that the first time we hear of Napalm use in Syria, happens to be when the West is warmongering. I can’t wait for the US press secretary, to tell us how she “does not discuss US history” in relation to Syria.

  13. Napalm, a.k.a. white phosphorous, as used repeatedly by Israel in Gaza. TV picture clearly show IDF planes deploying it in civilian areas, including a UN hospital, and in areas where there were no IDF troops on the ground, which makes the excuse of it’s use as a ‘battle-field smokescreen’ a complete mockery.

    Presumably Assad will be saying it’s a smokescreen for his troops too. This is the probelm with ‘exceptionalism’, other people often feel entitled to be ‘exceptional’ too.

  14. You seem to think that the coup against Morsi/Muslim Brotherhood was a bad thing when most Egyptians were for it. I don’t think you quite understand what the Muslim Brotherhood are about.

    There’s a good article by Thierry Meyssan at http://www.voltairenet.org/article179909.html
    in which he writes:

    ‘For the middle classes, Morsi was never democratically elected. Most polling stations were occupied militarily by the Muslim Brotherhood and 65% of voters abstained. This masquerade was covered by international observers sent by the United States and the European Union who supported the Brotherhood. In November, President Morsi repealed the separation of powers by prohibiting courts from challenging his decisions. Then he dissolved the Supreme Court and dismissed the Attorney General. He abrogated the Constitution and made had a new draft drawn up by a commission appointed by him, before adopting this fundamental law in a referendum boycotted by 66% of voters.’

    In Libya the instability is largely due to the attempt of the Muslim Brotherhood to take over against the wishes of the majority of the population

  15. Ruth

    How do you know most Egyptians were for it? It cancelled the only democratic vote there has been. No sign of another one, is there?

    The low turnout was not very different from US elections.

  16. Back to the real world. Co-op is looking for a bailout. BofE warns that the governemnt scheme of interest free loans is reinflating the housing bubble (I thought that was the plan?) and is *threatening* the recovery (what recovery?) and the Met can’t catch criminals anymore because ‘the computer said no’. It must be a real hangover feeling after all that exciment of potential “action”.

  17. Ukip’s full statement calling for William Hague to stand down as foreign secretary:

    Following the government’s defeat in the House of Commons on intervention in Syria, UKIP calls on William Hague to resign.The foreign secretary has been a continued supporter of Britain intervening militarily in Syria, including the arming of anti-Assad ‘rebels’. In doing so he has demonstrated how utterly out of touch he is with parliament and public opinion and so should step down from his role as Britain’s chief representative on foreign affairs.

  18. Morsi made a number of fundamental mistakes.

    1. He supported the Syrian Rebels.
    2. He never opened the border at Gaza as promised.
    3. He immediately renaged on the very thing that got him elected in the first place; the promise that all laws would have to be approved by the judiciary.
    4. He used deadly force on peaceful protesters.

    Morsi was either a complete fool or a complete tool.

  19. Anon: it’s funny that the only person who has resigned over this farce so far is the Shadow Transport Minister, and that was because Milliband voted against war! Special interest politics at it’s most bizarre.

  20. Donald,

    Whether you agree with Morsi or not he was elected. The army does not have the right to remove elected leaders because Donald – or Ruth or Thierry Masson – does not think they are very good.

  21. Hi Craig, want to retract your statement that Ukip wants more killing of foreigners?

  22. Hi Craig,

    Yes, he was elected… you’ll like this… but so was Hitler. :)

    The biggest fear that Egyptians have about the Muslim Bortherhood is that Egypt becomes a strict Islamic state, i.e. under Sharia.

    Morsi promised that the secular judiciary would approve all Presidental laws to address this concern. When he then assumed power hand immediately started breaking these fundemnetal promises in an attempt to consolidate for himself not just power that Mubarak had but *even more* people became very concerned.
    It is understandable that the Egyptians demanded him out, and the number that eventually opposed him was far greater than those that supported him. It sure looked to me like he was being shoe-horned in by Western interests with great haste.

  23. You have to remember, anything that gets in the way of the powers that be….will be REMOVED.

    “Draft Deregulation Bill: Government moves to shut down judicial supervision and criticism of DWP-Atos decision making by abolition of duty by Tribunals’ President to publish annual report”

    http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/08/29/draft-deregulation-bill-government-moves-to-shut-down-judicial-supervision-and-criticism-of-dwp-atos-decision-making-by-abolition-of-duty-by-tribunals-president-to-publish-annual-report/

    Just one more nail being hammered in to the coffin of democracy!, step by step, bit by bit, and in so many ways!.

  24. Donald

    “The number that eventually opposed him was far greater than the number who supported him.” In which case, he would have lost the next election – that is how democracy ought to work. Unlike those who deposed him, Morsi was not intending to abolish elections. There is, however, no real evidence that your statement is true.

  25. I should add that I don’t ascribe to this view that democracy is simply voting at elections every 5 years for a dictatorship. I think those elected have a moral duty to govern in accordance with their stated policies and election promises. If they openly break these promises they should forfeit the right to govern, in a sense that is the purpose of the “official opposition”, to act as a shadow governnment ready to assume power at anytime, who remebers the ‘vote of no confidence’? Milliband should be calling for this today.

  26. “In which case, he would have lost the next election”

    He had assumed powers that would have left him as Egypt’s next dictator. It would have been a rigged election or no election at all.

    The Egyptians were conned by the media into voting for him. They recognised this imediately and acted. OK, so they are now being governed by the military but the military is at least trying to get the politicans to sort things out. The Egyptians accept the military as the lesser of two evils. I am confident that some form of democracy will emerge in Egypt purely becuase Morsi has been rejected.

  27. “There is, however, no real evidence that your statement is true.”

    http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2013/08/27/egyptians-sentiments-towards-the-muslim-brotherhood-poll/

  28. Napalm, a.k.a. white phosphorous* (sic)

    No. Two entirely different horrors.

    Wiki: Napalm B has a commonly quoted composition of 21% benzene, 33% gasoline (itself containing between 1% and 4% (estimated) benzene to raise its octane number), and 46% polystyrene. This mixture is more difficult to ignite than napalm.[4] A reliable pyrotechnic initiator, often based on thermite (for ordinary napalm) or white phosphorus (for newer compositions), has been used.[2][4] The original napalm usually burned for 15 to 30 seconds while Napalm B can burn for up to 10 minutes.[4]

    Only the initiator will be phosphorus (or thermite) This isn’t what does the damage.

    Napalm is banned for use against civilian populations:
    International law does not prohibit the use of napalm or other incendiaries against military targets,[21] but use against civilian populations was banned by the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW) in 1980.[22] Protocol III of the CCW restricts the use of all incendiary weapons, but a number of states have not acceded to all of the protocols of the CCW. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), states are considered a party to the convention, which entered into force as international law in December 1983, if they ratify at least two of the five protocols. The United States, for example, is a party to the CCW but did not sign protocol III.[23]

    …IOW other incendiary types may not be wholly covered by international law. Including WP smoke shells, interestingly. And see:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Certain_Conventional_Weapons

    *phosphorus

  29. Donald

    Good God, you really have bought the propaganda wholesale. “Yes of course this is not the reinstatement of military rule, it is merely the army working as the expression of the will of the vast majority of the people, as measured by err nothing.” How you can accuse anyone else of being brainwashed by the media when you have swallowed the Frank Gardner bullshit completely is beyond me.

  30. “The effort to take action before UN inspectors could complete their review was highly sus, as have been the shifting claims by the Administration as to what precisely the attacks consisted of and why the officialdom is so certain Assad is the perp (for instance, early pronouncements that the toxic agent was a nerve gas or otherwise “military grade” have been questioned by experts who have studied the footage closely).”

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/08/gaius-publius-deep-state-is-the-upper-echelon-of-the-intelligence-community-running-america.html

  31. Morsi promised to open the Gaza border. He opened it for two days, then permanently closed it.

    Morsi promised judicial review of all presidential laws. He scrapped that plan within weeks amid great protest from lawyers of all political stripes (hint: because it was clear he was assuming dictatorial powers).

    Morsi openly supported the Rebels who were trying to establish an undemocratic Islamic state in Syria.

    Morsi ordered the Egyptian military to use force to break up demonstrations, the very same crime that Mubarak is/was on trial for.

    These are verifable facts Craig, the Egyptians are probably just a bit more naive about ‘democracy’ than we are. They couldn’t swallow down their dissapointment and feeling of being conned like we do every few years because they simply aint used to it like us.

  32. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 11:54 am

    @Donald. 10 04 am

    “Politics is a murky old world best left to the grown ups.”

    WTF???

    Where are the bloody grown-ups when the world needs them?

    Well, thank goodness, at least there’s uncle Craig pointing at the Emperor’s new suit. Many thanks.

  33. What is occuring with Egypt today is an example of how similar the Arab Spring was to that other great engineered project of rolling-out ‘democracy’ – the Coloured Revolutions of the 90’s. Tunisan, Egyptian, Libyan and Syrian uprisings were not spontaneous, they were planned.

    These ‘revolutions’ are greeted as amazing societal transformations initially, then people gradually see what they are and then the country reverts back to it’s natural geopolitical position in the world. Where are those potential new EU members in the East like Georgia, Ukraine etc. now? Yep, getting back in bed with the Russians.

  34. This might be worth further scrutiny. Al Jazeera and Reuters apparently uploaded photographs of the Damascus massacre the day (20 August) before the event actually took place (21 August) if this report is right.

    http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/22/photo-al-jazzera-reuter-published-the-news-of-massacre-in-east-ghouta-damascus-one-day-before-the-massacre-happened-by-assad/

  35. God, so glad to read some sense again about international politics … keep posting, Craig!

    Question … I may be wrong but I always got the impression during the lengthy electoral process in Egypt that the military were loading the dice with regard to selection of candidates. How many candidates were deselected by the courts before polling leaving a choice largely between Morsi and Shafik – the two apparent extremes of Egyptian politics. Shafik wasn’t deselected but re-instated on appeal – the rules applied to other candidates apparently didn’t apply to him. It didn’t really matter much to the military that Shafik wasn’t elected … they just waited until they could claim that Morsi had overstepped the mark.

    What they had planned to do all along. Or not?

  36. “I did not intend to imply any preference between Sunni and Shia. I have none. I just am puzzled that Western governments appear to.” Craig, at 9:45am, today.

    It’s just a convenient mechanism through which to exert divide-and-rule. We never really heard about it geopolitically, in modern times, until the Iranian Revolution in 1979 and the creation and turbo-charging of (‘Sunni’) Jihadism by the CIA and Pakistan’s military-intelligence apparatus from the late 1970s, onwards.

    I fear now that there may be an ‘attack’ on a British base in Cyprus which will be ascribed to… whoever. I also fear that there will be another big chemical weapons usage in Syria.

    Speaking of which… where is Prince Bandar? Does anyone have his number?

  37. [Taped conversation from the office of Daud Kamran]

    DK: “O Vizier! We have failed to convince the masses. Canst thou believe that with all that Tory spin plus my consort Shamkam carrying the latest accessories (what an expense), Parliament voted against me. I can’t believe it!”

    Vizier: “O DK! Here is the solution. Make thou a speech emphasizing the sovereignty of Cabinet. That would of course emphasize thine own sovereignty.”

    DK: “A thousand thanks! What a wonderful solution. A thousand freshly-minted Saudi silver riyals for thee. We shall implement the solution once our friend Yan Qi tells us that of a surety he shall strike the users of poisonous weapons.”

    Vizier: “Your Excellency is most kind.”

    So let’s await a speech about Sovereignty of Cabinet :)

  38. “I am confident that some form of democracy will emerge in Egypt purely becuase Morsi has been rejected.” Donald, at 11:23am, today.

    I wish I could share your confidence, Donald. But I don’t. I do not agree with the military coup in Egypt. I do agree with Ruth and you that the Muslim Brotherhood was abusing its democratic mandate in order to assume a highly authoritarian degree of power over the state; this is what Islamist political movements – Sunni and Shia – do when they assume the reins of government, it is their core agenda. And Ruth is correct about Libya, too. But the Muslim Brotherhood government should have been challenged (apart from on the streets) by civil disobedience and by constitutional, non-military means. And then there could have been fresh elections. The military should not have taken over the government and arrested the elected politicians.

  39. Yup, don’t celebrate. You cynical correspondent, however, has had a brief moment of hope. It springs from unlikely sources. In this case, Ed Millipede. It took, I suspect, some spine to oppose war, and I pray he doesn’t pay. But he showed more spine in one decision that Blair ever has in his life, and that isn’t nothing.

    Just a little, I feel vaguely proud of the Labour Party. I haven’t done so since Blair sociopathe’d his way to disgrace.

  40. OT.

    Craig, saw this and thought you might like to read it ?.

    “Polls consistently show that the answer will be No, but the polls have been wrong before and informed opinion in Scotland is that it will be closer, perhaps a great deal closer, than the polls currently suggest.”

    http://www.firmmagazine.com/whats-happening-british-constitution-overdue-update/

  41. technicolour

    30 Aug, 2013 - 1:06 pm

    Well, well, well. I am still shocked by how amazed I am that our parliament actually represented the people, but whatever, so much better this way than any other and well done to it for doing what it’s paid to do. Caveats accepted, noted and included, however.

  42. Brendan 30 Aug, 2013 – 12:57 pm
    “I feel vaguely proud of the Labour Party.”

    That’s a tad partisan. The vote was also the result of tory and liberal rebels.

  43. It is very good to see you back blogging Craig. It is always very interesting to read your views on international affairs.

  44. Suhayl Saadi 30 Aug, 2013 – 12:43 pm
    “…Prince Bandar? Does anyone have his number?”

    Yes he is evil. Or are you after his telephone number?

  45. John Goss 30 Aug, 2013 – 12:33 pm
    “This might be worth further scrutiny.”

    A comment on the youtube video suggests this is down to time difference between syria and usa.

  46. “Well, well, well. I am still shocked by how amazed I am that our parliament actually represented the people,”

    technicolour,

    Its all a big chess game. Edward Samuel Miliband is looking to safeguard his position as leader of NuLab, that was coming under pressure, makes his position as leader look a bit safer now!. Also, will gain NuLab a few more votes at (if) we have another election, events may overtake us all on that one ?. I think there are some very powerful people around the world that are willing to sacrifice UK involvement in attacking Syria to keep Edward Samuel Miliband as leader of NuLab. Just my thoughts on it all.

  47. I think that I’ve more respect for both Miliband and Cameron after last night. Miliband at least showed that he can do something, even if his reasons might not be correct, and Cameron had the grace to accept the result of the vote.

    I’m not sure that dear old Dave was that bothered by the negative vote. His admission earlier that they weren’t 100% sure who had used the chemical weapons gave his rebels wriggle room. The change of nature of the vote in the first place appears to have signalled that he wasn’t as sure of the action after receiving additional intelligence. The vote satisfied his hawks, and gives him a good reason not to commit UK armed forces to another conflict.

  48. Leonard Young

    30 Aug, 2013 - 1:54 pm

    It’s odd that the West, and UK’s parliament and media in particular, are suddenly outraged over chemical weapons, as though the previous (non-chemical) atrocities in Syria and elsewhere were not already something to object to. Whether it is 14 old boys floating in rivers having been hand-tied and shot by “the Syrian opposition”, or people having their legs blown off by shelling, or bombing, or air strikes, or being poisoned, it all results in suffering, death and brutality.

    Let me be clear that chemical weapons are appalling, but so too are any other forms of military, tribal or faction-led violence, yet the West was content to stand back and watch all that happen before without the current clamour for action.

  49. Last night on newsnight hammond said that chemical weapons had not be used for 100 years. Paxman replied thats an exaggeration what about saddam. Hammond said yes saddam did use them once at halabja. And that was that discussed.

    They didn’t mention the tens of thousands of iranians killed by saddam using us intelligence. Nor the use of napalm by the us in vietnam and iraq. Nor the white phosphorus(? sorry k) stuff that israel uses.

    Reviewing his performance the independent only finds hammond in error when he mistakenly mixed saddam and assad in a sentence.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/syria-philip-hammond-confuses-saddam-hussein-with-bashar-alassad-on-newsnight-8790892.html

  50. Mick S 1.46pm,

    Yes very good points.

  51. Phil Hammond’s not very bright, and he’s yet another career politician with an Oxford PPE. After the Liam Fox debacle, they needed someone without any kind of flair.

    There’s a better Phil Hammond here…

    http://drphilhammond.com/

  52. When is a democracy not a democracy? When it is merely elections. Sorry to bring Adolf into this again, but shouldn’t he have been booted out at the next election, too?

    When will you understand – elections do not a democracy make.

  53. Glad to see you back Craig.

    I’m slightly less cynical than you about this being a blip – only slightly, but still. The neo-con establishment would usually get the result it wants in situations like this, and it didn’t… I think in part because the Iraq debacle is still fresh enough in people’s minds, and the lack of clarity on what a military commitment would involve made a numbers of MPs pause. Robin Cook’s most famous speech I think resonates, and this is a not insignificant setback for the neo-cons.

    Anyway, the media narrative today is what I find more puzzling. It seems every mainstream outlet is running an “Obama plans in disarray” themed lead. I don’t understand this. I suppose if you had bought into the idea that intervention was inevitable, and now you think it’s not, this would put your thinking into disarray.

    But for the Obama people, who have been signalling they are prepared to launch military action against Assad, while making it very clear that any such a decision had not yet been made, how does the UK vote change much of anything? It seems like a slight inconvenience at worst.

    I still think ultimately that the way the West gets more involved in Syria is through NATO via a threat posed to Turkey. And frankly if the Obama team was already fully invested in an intervention, they’d have been pushing this theme more forcefully.

  54. Michael Stephenson

    30 Aug, 2013 - 2:51 pm

    We should be proud of the British public at least. They have been bombarded with propaganda by the BBC, all the liberal press and the right wing press has been bombarding the propaganda, and the British public have not been fooled.

    Has the British public ever before shown such resistance to propaganda?

  55. “President Mohamed Morsi issued a decree on Thursday granting himself broad powers above any court as the guardian of Egypt’s revolution, and used his new authority to order the retrial of Hosni Mubarak.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/23/world/middleeast/egypts-president-morsi-gives-himself-new-powers.html?_r=0

    “One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes a revolution in order to establish a dictatorship.” – George Orwell.

  56. Writes the better Phil Hammond:

    “… our nation’s greatest asset and our only major post-war contribution to civilisation (apart from The Beatles and Mo Farah)…”

    *groan*

  57. Michael Stephenson at 2:51 pm.

    And we should be proud, too, of the Daily Mail, the Express, and their readers, Peter Hitchens and Max Hastings, Peter Oborne, Nigel Farage and the Ukip, and small-minded, little Englander isolationist swivel-eyed loons everywhere, described by Polly Toynbee thusly:

    “There is nothing appealing about the new little England isolationism on the right: let the world go hang, so long as we’re alright. It comes with an unpleasant undertow: why fight in Muslim countries for the rights of a lot of Muslims anyway?”

    Racist if you bomb them, racist if you don’t.

  58. “Each national experience was distinct, yet there were also common features. First, the colour revolutions followed fraudulent elections by semi-autocratic regimes, with a prominent role being played by organised groups of young people adept at combining clever slogans with creative non-violent action to spread their message. Otpor (“resistance”) in Serbia, Kmara (“enough”) in Georgia, and Pora (“It’s time”) in Ukraine were the most visible part of these countries’ anti-authoritarian rebellions. The Kefaya (“enough”) movement founded in Egypt in 2004 with the purpose of mobilising for change against the Hosni Mubarak regime was directly influenced by these predecessors.”
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/vicken-cheterian/arab-revolt-and-colour-revolutions

  59. I should add that all the above have been quoted approvingly here, albeit with the usual caveats (eg, “Saw this in the Daily Mail (I know), but…”).

  60. Michael Stephenson

    30 Aug, 2013 - 3:07 pm

    Toynbee is far more dangerous than that lot combined.

  61. Ashdown ought to be ashamed of himself for sitting there and owning up to his role in the mass murder in Yugoslavia. I enjoyed the glimmers of truth coming out about “Chamberlain” whom as corroborated by his Lordship was very popular with people for not wishing to start the WWII. Whilst Churchill the warmonger was not popular with the Brits. Although his warmongering lordshipnessness went on to add; Who is right now then?

    Well your Lordship is it not about time we had a critical look at the true history and not the trumped up narrative foisted as the history about the dynamics of WWII, included unrestricted access to the archived secrets?

    =====
    Hamlins said;

    ….. used his new authority to order the retrial of Hosni Mubarak.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/23/world/middleeast/egypts-president-morsi-gives-himself-new-powers.html?_r=0

    Indeed a clear cut case of a dictatorship and end of democracy, as displayed with the intent to put on trial the criminal whom for years killed Egyptians, and suppressed any political dissent, as well as defrauding the Egyptians from their wealth for the sake of gratuity he was getting from Uncle Sam.

    A Clear cut case of a man drunk on power and intent on invasion of the planet and destruction of the universe, etc…….

    The levels of partisanship on display, held by those whom have little knowledge of the facts and actualities and are only intent to promote tribal interests above any other regardless of how ridiculous their position may prove to be.

    ====
    Evgueni said;

    When will you understand – elections do not a democracy make.

    we do, however we are not in charge of the narrative delivered by the US and coterie, banging on about “democracy”, “freedom”, and “freedom of choice”.

    Only reflecting the situation as is. However the wishes of the villagers, peasants, and the poor who are in the majority in any country somehow do not count, because every “report” only reiterates the “liberal, secular, middle-class” values that should be upheld, regardless of the fact these are always in the minority.

    ===

  62. “An uprising of more than 100,000 armed tribesmen took place in 1920. Over the next few months the RAF dropped 97 tons of bombs killing 9,000 Iraqis. This failed to end the resistance and Arab and Kurdish uprisings continued to pose a threat to British rule. Churchill suggested that chemical weapons should be used “against recalcitrant Arabs as an experiment.” He added “I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes to spread a lively terror” in Iraq.”

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRchurchill.htm

  63. Craig wrote –

    “The ultra wealthy members of the Gulf regimes continue to act as the West’s proxies in the region and provide harbour to its neo-imperialist armed forces, while at the same time maintaining themselves a obscurantist version of Islam which would have horrified Mohammed and breaks virtually every precept of the Koran, particularly as regards treatment of women and of minority religions within their territory.”

    – –

    As a non-Muslim, I’m not sure which “version of Islam” I’m supposed to believe Muslims are supposed to believe in – ie the original Arabic text version or the sanitised multi-cultural version. Generally, however, I’m inclined to believe Arabic-speaking Muslims know what Islam is all about.

    Perhaps they (members of the Gulf regimes) have not been very faithful in observing some of Pro-Mo’s earlier, less intolerant views of “minority religions”, but they have proven themselves exceedingly faithful in observing the great prophet’s preference for the treatment of ‘disbelievers’.

  64. Someone I read somewhere that Winston Churchill, reportedly to be feared by young boys for buggery at Eton, also wanted to drop napalm all over the Soviet Union but got talked out of it by his advisers.

  65. Phil, John Goss, Timezones

    Yes the 20th/21st confusion is very interesting. It was the early AM 21st August 2013 in Syria when the chemical attack took place but it was still evening 20th in the USA.

    Similarly when Obama made the “red line” speech it was the 20th August 2012 in Washington but was reported this side of the Atlantic with a date of the 21st August.

    Someone wanted the chemical attack to be exactly one year after Obama’s speech. As near as exactly as they could manage.

    Youtube operates on US Pacific Time.

    However even allowing for the timezone confusion it seems dozens of videos were filmed and uploaded to Youtube within a very few hours of the incident. Some may well have been prepared in advance ready to go mixed with genuine videos.

  66. There seems to be a palpable air of disappointment among many of the Murrayistas over the lack of intervention in Syria. I fear some of them were secretly hoping for an attack to confirm their prejudices about the Bri’ish State. The lack of action, together with the much-maligned parliamentary democracy showing signs of having worked in the people’s favour, has left Murrayistas clinging to the “blip” narrative in the hope that the establishment will quickly revert to what is perceived as its usual zio-fascist warmongering self. If it doesn’t – and for my money Cameron has changed his mind – what is a Murrayista to do? Start dragging up events from the 1920s, perhaps, as Someone has done, so that there will be no “blip” in the continual castigating of one’s own country, whilst finding absolutely nothing positive whatsoever to say about it?

  67. John Dross alleges:

    “Someone I read somewhere that Winston Churchill, reportedly to be feared by young boys for buggery at Eton, also wanted to drop napalm all over the Soviet Union but got talked out of it by his advisers.”

    Putting aside the fact that Churchill attended Harrow, not Eton, wouldn’t you say that dropping napalm all over the Soviet Union might have been a difficult (some might even say impossible!) task?

  68. I may add, despite my political differences with D. Cameron, I respect him for accepting the “no” vote, and adding, he will not go along on the bombing jolly with the Yanks. Give him credit, if it was bLiar probably he would have tried to get another vote in, and keep on putting it to votes until he got the “yes” answer he wanted, or better still not go to the vote and claim the “royal prerogative” and bomb the Syrians anyhow.

    Now that the coalition of the willing is down to two members namely the French and the Yanks, after the German pull out. When will the French pull out? Although judging by the topsy-turvy Zeitgeist the French are socialists and probably go to war more readily!

  69. No.

    We want peace and a diplomatic diplomacy.

    Brits, we hope can bring peace. But for the last period there has been no recognition of Assad for diplomatic discussion.
    No discussion with them!

  70. Even the recently much heard claim that chemical weapons were banned as a result of the first world war appears to be not true. They were banned by the Hague Convention of 1899.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_of_1907#Hague_Convention_of_1899

  71. Anon said:

    that there will be no “blip” in the continual castigating of one’s own country, whilst finding absolutely nothing positive whatsoever to say about it?

    If a country cannot afford the freedom of letting her citizens to critically appraise her course, then damned be that country for it is a tyranny no less.

    “Fall into line behind your government” my be your choice, go ahead and fall in line! However dare not to force your quiescence upon the rest of the free men and women, who would like to maintain their freedoms, included the freedom to be critical of their; country, government or whomsoever they wish to be critical of.

  72. Ha ha, Komodo! You got me there!

  73. Mr Cameron! Mr Obama! There’s another massacre in the offing in Egypt right now! Are you guys gonna ride in there and save the day or what? Are you gonna stop the army slaughtering civilians?

    Are you gonna say a single fucking word of protest?

    Mr Kerry! I know “restoring democracy” is a “rocky road” but do hundreds really have to die?

    BTW I wonder how Yates of the Yard is getting on in Bahrain? The uprising there has started to use IEDs against the police (yesterday) so it must be getting tough for Mr Yates to do his job. The attack was apparently carried out by “terrorists” said the Bahraini Govt.

    Hey Johnny Boy! Is it terrorism when the heart-eaters kill Syrian police with IEDs?

    Is it terrorism when Saudi princes threaten to attack next year’s Olympic games?

    Oh boy…I’m all confused now.

  74. Someone wanted the chemical attack to be exactly one year after Obama’s speech. At least as near as exact as they could get.

    For some reason the media seems to ignore this “coincidence”.

  75. By all means carry on, passerby. We live in a free country, after all, and not a fascist one, as is frequently claimed here, and that means allowing all points of view, including Islamist ones and Jewish conspiracies!

  76. Anon,

    “There seems to be a palpable air of disappointment among many of the Murrayistas over the lack of intervention in Syria. I fear some of them were secretly hoping for an attack to confirm their prejudices about the Bri’ish State.”

    **********

    This ridiculous and offensive notion says far more about your deeply twisted mind than anything.

    Idiot.

  77. You know what, AlcAnon, as someone who believes there is a conspiracy of silence concerning the impending asteroid strike on Planet Earth, perhaps they would be better off ignoring the views of conspiracy nuts such as yourself?

  78. Jives, you seem rather angry today. Hope I didn’t touch a nerve :-)

  79. …. in part nine, he tells how Churchill became a Cold War prophet in foreseeing the menace of the Soviet Union
    Facebook

    Churchill stole Joseph Goebbels “Iron Curtain” and coined it as his own, the same opportunist warmonger whom advised his mother, with whom she ought to be sleeping with a view to promote him. He knew the only way that he could advance was through chaos, mayhem and destruction.

    He was not a prophet but a psychopath who had access to levers of power, and could shape up the mendacity that ruled the twentieth century with its remnant still is ruling the twenty first century today.

  80. Anon,

    Actually I said, I could almost convince myself. Still can’t make sense of it though so I’m leaving it alone pending any new data.

    Interesting you say “concerning the impending asteroid strike”. Almost suggests you believe it not me.

  81. Anon retorted;

    that means allowing all points of view, including Islamist ones and Jewish conspiracies!

    Much to the chagrin of those whom would rather these just faded into the background, and were not so blatantly espoused by more and more informed, and free people!

  82. Anyone know why we have gone from current events in Egypt and Syria to bashing Winston Churchill?

  83. On the contrary, Passerby, let’s hear them!

  84. Anon,

    No not angry just really disgusted by your post.

  85. AlcAnon pointe out;

    For some reason the media seems to ignore this “coincidence”.

    If by media you mean the front shop for the SIS? Yes they should be ignoring it. However, if you mean the alternative media, like this blog? No they should not, perhaps you would be good enough to elaborate on this subject?

  86. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Aug, 2013 - 4:30 pm

    @ Anon

    Good to see you back; to ape the stylistic infelicity of many commenters, your sanity, balance and scepticism are much needed.

    Especially agree with the following:

    “There seems to be a palpable air of disappointment among many of the Murrayistas over the lack of intervention in Syria.”

    I noticed and of course commented on the same sour sense of disappointment when it became clear that Bradley Manning would not get the death sentence and then, would not get 112 years and then didn’t even get the 60 years on which one of our Eminences had made a bet with someone or other (so he told us at least).

    Finally, glad you corrected the schoolboy howler aboit Churchill’s school. I also agree that it would have needed an awful lot of napalm to drop onto Russia.

    BTW, I’ve read about flamethrowers being used in WW1 but nothing at all about napalm. Is Mr Goss sure that napalm had been invented at the time he’s claiming its use was projected (Russian civil war)?

  87. Anon

    “Anyone know why we have gone from current events in Egypt and Syria to bashing Winston Churchill?”

    ********

    Because we can.
    Deal with it.

  88. Anon diversifies;

    Anyone know why we have gone from current events in Egypt and Syria to bashing Winston Churchill?

    First you were decrying the right to be critical and advocating “fall in line behind your government” mantra! Now you are decrying the subject that is to be debated? What else will you be pointing out next? In what capacity are you posting here? Perhps you have self appointed yourself as; An Umpire, a Referee, the Blog Owner, An Arbiter, An Advocate ……?

  89. Must be a change of shifts coming up…

  90. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Aug, 2013 - 4:36 pm

    “Not down on the farm this weekend, then, Anon?

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/man-banned-from-every-farm-in-the-country-after-admitting-sex-with-goat-8775808.html
    _____________________

    A remarkably intolerant and stupid post from someone Komodo – who presents himself as one of the ‘intellectuals’ of the blog.

    A stupid personal attack, containing no substance, which would surely have been deleted by our Moderator Jon had it been written by me, Villager, Kempe or its target, Anon.

    ************************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  91. mendacity blivet

    30 Aug, 2013 - 4:39 pm

    The biggest of the Big Obama Lies, 8/23: “If the US goes in and attacks another country without a UN mandate and without clear evidence that can be presented, then there are questions in terms of whether international law supports it.”

    Liar. There are no questions. There is no support.

    UN Charter Article 39: “The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.”

    UN Charter Article 48(1): “The action required to carry out the decisions of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security shall be taken by all the Members of the United Nations or by some of them, as the Security Council may determine.”

    Use of force is above Obama’s pay grade. He doesn’t know his place. He’s not content to kiss the bankers’ asses. He longs to be in command.

    Obama thinks you’re stupid. He thinks you can’t read. He thinks you will swallow his nonsensical passive-voice babbling without checking it against the supreme law of the land.

  92. Excellent piece from Craig. One thing it leaves out is the water shortage and climate change issues that were at the bottom of the Syrian conflict but have gone largely unreported. I wrote about it briefly here with a link to Peter Gleick’s excellent piece here.

  93. Amongst several posters here who automatically reinforce the Establishment narrative ive sensed an almost palpable disappointment at Cameron’s defeat in his mission to bomb more innocents to smithereens in order stop innocents being blown to smithereens.

    And a mission based on not one shred of conclusive evidence.

    Although John Kerry said he got his proof from Twitter and Youtube so it must be true…

  94. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Aug, 2013 - 4:53 pm

    @ Anon

    “Anyone know why we have gone from current events in Egypt and Syria to bashing Winston Churchill?”
    _____________________

    Always willing to help a fellow critical-spirit!

    The reason is that events have so far disproved the wilder theories and speculations (never mind accusations) of the Eminences. At the moment, they have egg on their fair faces.

    So, a swift swerve sideways onto safer terrain on which – thanks to the passage of time – inconvenient facts don’t instantly disprove what’s being said.

  95. Hi Habbabkuk, I see your pleas for patience with regard to speculation on Syria were ignored, so that now the Murrayistas have taken (bizarrely) to bashing Churchill in the absence of being able to label the current establishment “Fascist”. These people must live in a fascist state, you know, for sustenance. Give it a page or two and the Regulars will resume with their usual hobby horses, though the absence of Flaming Mary has been refreshing.

    On the topic of moderation, Jon will reply that he cannot be in all places at all times to remove offending comments, but he will, of course, be ever-present and ready to delete comments by the names you mention. As it happens, being a generous sort of fellow I would rather prefer that Komodo’s comment remains, as it highlights his intellectual capacity for all to see.

  96. Biff Vernon 30 Aug, 2013 – 4:43 pm
    “…the water shortage and climate change issues that were at the bottom of the Syrian conflict but have gone largely unreported.”

    Thanks for those links. I did not know about this at all.

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