We Won’t Be Fooled Again

by craig on August 29, 2013 10:38 pm in Uncategorized

Having sat through 25 minutes of intensive propaganda for bombing Syria called the BBC Ten O’clock News – which did not feature a single interviewee against bombing – it was delightful to see them have to report at the end that the Commons has now rejected the Government’s motion to authorise military action.


It will, Nick Robinson quickly assured us, take a few days to work out what this vote means.  He means it will take a few days for those who profit from war to work out how to spin the vote against military action as a vote for military action.  That process will start in the next few minutes.

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  1. Horace Swanson

    29 Aug, 2013 - 10:41 pm

    I never thought I’d say it, but God bless Ed Miliband, (even though his amendment was shite too)

  2. It’s likely the government will try and get Murdoch media to work in overdrive now. Some older people on traditional right wing papers may also need be called to order.

  3. Good to see you back Craig – you’ve been missed

  4. Milibland will find the proof offered sufficient to proceed with military action.

    Craig, it’s great to see your back blogging. been waiting to hear your comments on Syria.

  5. Good news, indeed. Sense has prevailed – for now.

  6. Nick Robinson?

    “Bear from Bo’ Selecta! Bear from Bo’Selecta!”

  7. Craig,
    Doesn’t everyone on this blog know about the hegemonic agenda?
    So we have a policy failure in the UK and the US is clueless about its own foreign policy.
    1. What – another Egypt to remove the secularist Assad then put in fundamentalist Muslims so that they then attack the minority Christian minority in Syria. But, on the BBC these days the CIA funded “rebels” are termed in Orwellian double-speak “moderates”.
    2. Listen carefully to General Wesley Clarke.
    It is imperialism and modern colonialism ( where Britain left off – the US has picked up).
    There is no rationality and even less morality.

  8. Hollande is now talking about a political solution,
    Obama claims to have no smoking gun.
    Looks like cold feet all round.

  9. We may just see Obama proceed with some new fig leaf for British involvement… like use of bases. To stand in for the token cruise missiles.

  10. Well Milliband and Alexander better not go mountain climbing or for a walk in the woods any time soon would be my advice.

    Or is this where the NSA/GCHQ Total Information Awareness comes into its own and many of the 282 MP’s who voted against the Govt. may start getting strange little calls and dark actor memos reminding them of some adolescent or otherwise indiscretion they thought nobody knew about suddenly comes back to haunt/persuade a change of position?

    I can see how this whole NSA/GCHQ mass data trawl could be used very effectively for the worst reasons by the worst of people/agencies.

  11. This whole idea that if we don’t bomb syria tomorrow Assad has ‘got away with using chemical weapons’ is so childish.

    As if bombing a few military bases is the only way you can damage a leader on the international stage.

    How about a joint statement from all willing UN members to never recognise Assad or his regime ever again. How about putting out an ICC warrant on him personally for war crimes and basically implying that, even if he does win the civil war, he will never be able to travel freely again, nor engage with the UN or any other self-respecting international body, and his act of barbarity will haunt him for the rest of his life? How about implementing permanent sanctions on anyone who sells his regime weapons from here on? I could go on, I won’t. Basically, bombing is shite. It kills innocents, stokes hatred, wastes money, and is, at best, tokenistic. All the above responses are better.

  12. Good to see Tory MPs like Richard Sheppherd and Edward Leigh speak out.

  13. A great result tonight but eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. Milibland, Hague-Ron need to be kept on a very tight leash and under constant suveillance to stop further spin and proxy attacks

  14. @Misc fool – Very much agree, Edward Leigh spoke amazingly tonight

  15. Blegburnduddoo

    30 Aug, 2013 - 12:22 am

    Quite right Misc Fool. Some other Tories were excellent too. On the other hand the Labour warmongers: Meg Munn, Pat McFadden, Mike Gapes etc were appalling.

  16. Glad to hear you craig.

    Is it just me or is world war 3 about to start?

  17. MPs were faced with a great choice. Bomb Syria on Cameron’s terms or bomb Syria on Milliband’s terms. Milliband , as ever , missed an opportunity to reflect what the electorate wanted and decided to play some sort of post Blair role which meant that he was in favour of bombing but only if everyone else was too. The Lib Dems , typically , voted overwhelmingly for war ; presumably on the basis that dead Syrians are much to be preferred to the threat of a general election

  18. Welcome back threat host, and phew! The reckless foaming at the mouth from the war-party was truly disturbing. And that idiot Gove calling his reluctant backbenchers a disgrace was a hoot. Milliband, curiously, has made 2 very big calls, on Murdoch and war, and showed at least a little spine, so well done.

    Tragically, the US doesn’t have a democracy, so it’ll be bombs away soon.

  19. Snowden and Associates, P.I.

    30 Aug, 2013 - 2:53 am

    Now that the NATO bloc is backing away from their purported evidence, this would be an opportune time for Russia and the temporary members to draft a resolution referring the Syrian situation to the International Criminal Court for investigation under Rome Statute Article 13(b).

    If, as alleged, available information provides a reasonable basis to believe that Article 8.2.b.xvii has been breached in Syria, the Prosecutor can collect and examine evidence; request the presence of and question persons being investigated, victims and witnesses; seek the cooperation of any State or intergovernmental organization or arrangement in accordance with its respective competence and/or mandate; enter into such arrangements or agreements, not inconsistent with the Statute, as may be necessary to facilitate the cooperation of a State, intergovernmental organization or person.

    Based on impartial investigation by the ICC Prosecutor, the Pre-Trial Chamber can then issue arrest warrants for the person responsible for CW use and determine whether that person is a Syrian official, an armed irregular sent by the Saudi government, or an Israeli agent in the Syrian armed forces.

    Such a resolution will surely win a majority vote of the P-5 and current temporary members Argentina, Australia, Azerbaijan, Guatemala, Luxembourg, Morocco, Pakistan, Republic of Korea, Rwanda, and Togo. The UNSC must do its duty, Right?

  20. Hullo Craig,

    You’re almost there mate. The only expression missing, as it always is, is ‘false flag’. Did you not ever catch this headline from the Daily Mail? U.S. ‘backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria and blame it on Assad’s regime’ It’s possible you missed it since it was promptly disappeared and now only exists as a cache. Like I said, ‘false flag’ is a verboten term.

    As such, we will have every discussion imaginable, from absurdities pivoting on Assad using chemical weapons on the very day that weapons inspectors that he himself invited arrive, to soft discussions of whether we have the legal right to punish him for it. And yet on the topic of us as the far more likely perpetrators there’s nothing. And, yeah yeah, proxies. How clever we are.

    This is the Big Lie. No need to look to Hitler. We, the states of modern Western democracy (marching to the hallowed strains of ‘Jerusalem’), make Hitler look like a boy scout. As Big Lies go we out-Hitler Hitler.

    And then there’s Assad. Between him, his cannabalistic, priest-slaughtering opposition, and us as hell-bent supporters of those cannibals, Assad’s the only sane man in the room. As always our accusations of the villainy of others is merely projection, and a second-hand one at that. If anyone deserves missile strikes, no-fly zones, and invasion it’s us, the mindless golem of the Middle East. We are the bad guys.

    And until false-flag Big Lies are acknowledged as at least being possible (never mind the easily arguable ‘as likely as any other thing’) then I’m sorry but we will get fooled again. That’s us – a deluded Sisyphus climbing that foreign mountain all the better to aim the boulder at the undeserving bastards below. God rot us.

    Go on Craig. Roll it around in your mouth: ‘…as likely as any other thing’.

  21. “He means it will take a few days for those who profit from war to work out how to spin the vote against military action as a vote for military action. That process will start in the next few minutes.”

    Nevertheless, a failed motion needs to be seen for exactly what it is — a failed motion and a failure of the mischievous minds behind it. The evidence will now be ever more closely examined. The time for hustling is through, the debate becomes more rigorous and alive.

    Barkbat: “This whole idea that if we don’t bomb syria tomorrow Assad has ‘got away with using chemical weapons’ is so childish.”

    Couldn’t agree with you more. Add to that this extract from wikipedia on Cameron: ” When commenting in 2006 on his former pupil’s ideas about a “Bill of Rights” to replace the Human Rights Act, however, Professor Bogdanor, himself a Liberal Democrat, said, “I think he is very confused. I’ve read his speech and it’s filled with contradictions. There are one or two good things in it but one glimpses them, as it were, through a mist of misunderstanding”.[36]

    It speaks for itself that this lot, including Clegg, are hardly likely to grow a few inches taller anytime soon.

    I hope he’s having as restless a night as I am. As an aside, I sometimes wonder do these guys get natural sleep or are all these humanitarians on drugs?

  22. Haward – this wasn’t “typical” Lib Dem. They voted overwhelmingly against the Iraq war – but now they are in government, their own careers crawls are at stake. Just like Labour government ministers in 2003 thought thousands of lives were not as important as theirs.

    The 80%+ MPs who are members of Friends of Israel party (the Tories) are generally in favour of wars to defend Israel. Cameron goofed. Miliband wasn’t against involvement. Insulting someone isn’t exactly the way to get them on side.

  23. Questioning continues over administration’s case for Syrian intervention
    By BILL ROGGIO AND LISA LUNDQUISTAugust 29, 2013 11:39 AM

    Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2013/08/others_also_question_administr.php#ixzz2dQZy0O2n


    “Now an article by Kimberly Dozier and Matt Apuzzo at the Associated Press about the US intelligence report issued today ostensibly justifying a US intervention appears to confirm the soundness of our questions. According to the article, US intelligence officials familiar with the contents of the report say that “the intelligence linking Syrian President Bashar Assad or his inner circle to an alleged chemical weapons attack is no ‘slam dunk,’ with questions remaining about who actually controls some of Syria’s chemical weapons stores and doubts about whether Assad himself ordered the strike.”

    Several key paragraphs of their article are excerpted below:

    Intelligence officials say they could not pinpoint the exact locations of Assad’s supplies of chemical weapons, and Assad could have moved them in recent days as U.S. rhetoric builds. That lack of certainty means a possible series of U.S. cruise missile strikes aimed at crippling Assad’s military infrastructure could hit newly hidden supplies of chemical weapons, accidentally triggering a deadly chemical…
    …..US policymakers are also questioning the administration’s case and plan. As the New York Times reported, “Speaker John A. Boehner wrote a letter on Wednesday to Mr. Obama asking the president to provide a ‘clear, unambiguous explanation of how military action — which is a means, not a policy — will secure U.S. objectives and how it fits into your overall policy.” His question is similar to one we posed in the previous Threat Matrix report: “What is the US’s endgame in Syria? Reports are emerging that the Obama administration seeks to ‘punish’ Assad for using chemical weapons. Is this sound strategy, or a tactic that can potentially backfire?”

    And if the US believes that an immediate intervention is justified due to the threat that terrorist elements may have used or have access to Syria’s chemical weapons, as President Obama’s comments to PBS yesterday possibly implied, it should say so, not cloak an intervention with vague and possibly erroneous assumptions. Regarding that interview, the Wall Street Journal reported:

    Should Syria lose control of its stockpile of chemical weapons, the U.S. might be at risk, he said. Terrorists, in turn, could get hold of such weapons and possibly direct them against the U.S., he said.
    “And we want to make sure that does not happen,” he said.”

  24. Krishnamurky

    30 Aug, 2013 - 6:58 am

    The Goves (closet I could get to the G word, excuse the typo) and the “Friends” have an alliance (made even easier by ubiquitous smart phone twerking pics). Practically speaking it may be known as the Rantzen/Saville Alliance,and we know how well each protects the others interest at the Beeb. Across all parties they have enough votes to pass any Commons motion, this was a clever ploy to smooth over the “Iraq” debacle, the real war motion will be passed for Israel and the goves in turn will have a Gay Pride National Holiday legislated in time, Cameron has already delivered on gay marriage. There is only a slight problem of the upcoming 2014 Scottish referendum, but Rifkind & dual loyalty Co can forego Pentlands for Pardessiya in the blink of an eye!

  25. If, after the UN inspectors return, the Americans strike Syria without British involvement, hopefully that will serve as a deterrent on the use of chemical weapons.

  26. Nobody spot on. I missed that Daily Mail article which forecast exactly how the false flag was spun. Here again, for others who may have missed it, is the Mail link.


    And this is how it panned out if the reports are correct. They certainly seem to have more authentic information than the silly dossier presented to parliament by the intelligence services. So I’ll say it again: there is no intelligence in intelligence.


  27. Nobody,

    I think there are two distinct possibilities:

    a) False flag, to try to provoke Western intervention
    b) Pro-Assad forces but acting without command authority

    On other possibilities, I think it most improbable Assad would be so daft, but still possible. Israeli involvement in a false flag is also possible, as the “intercept evidence” comes from Mossad.

    But which of these it actually is I don’t know,

  28. nobody, 30 Aug, 2013 – 3:43 am.


    Funny how the tone of the board changes when the resident gate-keeper types are away licking their wounds. A couple of days ago you would have been howled down for mentioning that Mail article (like me was).

    Crikey – at this rate we might even be able to critices the Israeli lobby and apportion their fair share of blame to the misery and mess being created by thoughtless military adventurism in the region.

    Israel is facing a unique situation in it’s history, how will it react? That’s what’s occupying the minds of our security services now.

  29. Ashdown on R4 – what’s wrong with these people? I thought he was realatively anti-war… hang on on… former SBS right?

    What two British Army regiments are in Syria? Yes, the SAS and SBS. Regimental loyalties are more important to Ashdown than facts, public opinion and the democratic prosesses of parliament it would seem.

  30. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 9:01 am

    @Nobody. 3 43am

    ”As Big Lies go we out-Hitler Hitler.


    @Snowden+. 2 53am
    Now that the NATO bloc is backing away from their purported evidence, this would be an opportune time for Russia and the temporary members to draft a resolution referring the Syrian situation to the International Criminal Court for investigation under Rome Statute Article 13(b).


    So, another misty morning, half expecting to hear the missiles are already raining down, but, wait a moment, it seems there’s new set of things that “everybody knows”.

    The BBC has clearly outed itself as a propaganda organ.

    Rare MSM articles that mention “false lags” are widely known to have disappeared from the internet.

    Bliar and his lying old cronies are being wheeled out to cheer-lead what almost everyone else cannot avoid recognising as another murderous Nato blunder being committed ( low poll nos in favour for bombing).

    The Commons votes against the wishes of it’s masters.

    The international community gets increasingly critical of the Nato axis,

    and that’s only a short part of the list that springs into this rather bleary morning mind.

    Am I being naively optimistic or is this worm beginning to turn?

    It seems this conversation has already broken out of the backwaters of the internet and the propagandists have run out of ways to herd it back out of sight.

    The “fear model” of social control seems to be breaking down. Are sheep morphing into goats?

    Let’s keep the conversation leaking out into the world and get the criminals before the ICC.

  31. Let’s not forget the role the SAS had in the Basra region of southern Iraq. They would dress up as locals and go round planting car bombs in street markets. When they were caught by the Iraqi police the British Army turned up at the police station with tanks and demolished it to release their terrorist commrades.

  32. Sofia Kibo Noh: Let’s be cautious, the silence from the ‘other side’ is deafening. but at least Tony Blair, G.W. Bush and war criminals of every stripe in the West will be slightly less comfortable in their skins today for sure. The possibility that someone will mount a prosecution against them in the future will seem more and more likely as the wheels start falling off of their project for global domination.

  33. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 9:19 am

    @Donald 9 03am

    Thanks. A timely reminder of what it means to have the SAS come to town.


  34. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 9:26 am

    @Donald. 9 15am

    ”Let’s be cautious….”


    But I do have that sense when I read only 9% of Americans want bombing that I should be pinching myself.

    I’ve seem enough of these episodes now to know that usually, by this stage, there’s someone in just about every conversation reminding us “…how awful it is and how HE / THEY must be stopped, etc…”

  35. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 9:30 am


    What’s this then, a quick morning tango at the Craig Murray Cafe. Watch out for one large and very cross reptile. (Still yours Komodo, honest!)

  36. @Jives 11:18

    That’s EXACTLY what’s behind the total info awareness drive of the NSA/GCHQ complex – that and the ability to identify ideal Patsie candidates for the next shock-horror production. Trawl the data with the required pattern map of movement, communications, financial transactions, subscriptions etc etc and Bingo – a few names pop up. Add a a bit of agent-provocateuring, logistics provision and surveillance and an ‘event’ can be engineered, or compelling circumstantial case constructed.

    If it can be done, you can bet your sweet life it WILL be done – already been in fact with, for example, the Walsall Bomb plot of 1890 – albeit with less finesse than is now becoming possible.

    We really do live in a manufactured reality

  37. Absolutely perfectly summarised in a few effective words, Craig. many thanks.

  38. @ Sofia –
    I’ve seem enough of these episodes now to know that usually, by this stage, there’s someone in just about every conversation reminding us “…how awful it is and how HE / THEY must be stopped, etc…”
    And –
    The BBC has clearly outed itself as a propaganda organ.

    It will not have escaped your notice that one of Assad’s fighters allegedly dropped napalm on a school playground yesterday, reported by R4 at such length as to minimise coverage of the vote in the Commons at 10pm. And that a Panorama team was conveniently close at hand to provide coverage. In excruciating and horrifying detail. I don’t recall such intensive coverage during Vietnam, when the use of napalm on defenceless civilians was routine. And I ask myself what possible motive Assad could have for such an obvious and disgusting action.

    Could his timing have conceivably been worse under any imaginable circumstances? Is he saying “bring it on”?

  39. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 10:46 am

    Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

    It’s over a hundred years since William Melville (codename “M”).

    ”…When he fired veteran sergeant Patrick McIntyre, McIntyre went to press and claimed that Melville had instigated the whole Walsall Plot himself, a claim vindicated by police files released over 80 years later.

    In the next ten years, Melville embarked on a large series of well-publicized raids against anarchists….”
    More at, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Secret_Service_Bureau#Secret_Service_Bureau

    So, whether it’s the “divide and rule” bombings by the SAS or false flag chemical extravaganzas it seems all we’re seeing is simply the latest chapters in the long established MO of state secret services.

    Si ce n’est pas cassé, pourquoi devrait-il être fixé?

  40. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 11:00 am

    @Komodo. 10 33am

    >em> “Could his timing have conceivably been worse under any imaginable circumstances? Is he saying “bring it on”?

    That’s what you get when you leave the planning for these events to the Wily Coyote. It’s the same level of planning that failed in over thirty CIA attempts to assassinate Castro.

    “Oh! I know. Lets make an exploding clam shell for him ‘cos we know he likes a bit of scuba diving.”

    “Dang! That didn’t work. How about putting powder in his shoes to make his beard fall out?. Then all those Cubans will all say “We’re not going to take any shite from a folically challenged comondante!”

    Yes, these things happened (maybe my fly on the wall didn’t get the exact conversations), and twenty eight more!

  41. This is dated 5 August 2013 but I only saw it yesterday

    Pentagon Reverses Position and Admits U.S. Troops Used White Phosphorus Against Iraqis in Fallujah


    (do as I say, don’t do as I do)

  42. Hmm. The playground incident was in Aleppo. Still held by the government, last I heard. And quite close to the Turkish border. Handy for Incirlik, even. Overflying should not have been too much hassle as the rebels hold much of the countryside and have cut the Aleppo supply routes (whereas it would have been a distinct problem over Assad-held areas)

    Oh well, just another conspiracy theory, eh?

  43. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 12:11 pm

    Dreoilin. 11 34am

    “U.S. Troops Used White Phosphorus Against Iraqis in Fallujah…”

    I’ve worked it out.

    It goes something like this: It might be white phosphorous, but it’s our white phosphoruos, and if it’s ours then it must be OK…mustn’t it?

    I hope that helps you understand grown-up think.

  44. Thanks Sofia
    I’m getting there 😉

  45. Completely OK. But US napalm isn’t quite as OK as ours, so while the US admits its use, we have to go on denying it….



  46. The West and Israel orchestrated the chemical attacks. You wait and see.

  47. Sofia Kibo Noh 30 Aug, 2013 – 9:01 am
    “Rare MSM articles that mention “false lags” are widely known to have disappeared from the internet.”

    Any examples please?

  48. John Goss, thanks for that Web Archive link re the potential false flag operation by private contractors. That’s dated January of this year. Did it make much of a dent in MSM? I don’t think I was aware of it at the time. The email screengrab makes it seem convincing, even though the Infowars source will (and should) be treated with skepticism.

  49. Jon, John Goss,
    I thought the D Mail was sued over that story, and that’s why they had to take it down. Someone said so on the previous thread?

    And I read somewhere online that that email was proved to be a fake. The header was copied verbatim from another email in the bunch that were hacked. (Unfortunately I don’t bookmark all sources, but I should be able to find it again.)

  50. “The Mail was later sued by Britam Defense, and forced to publish a retraction. The Guardian reported on June 26th:

    “The Daily Mail has apologised and paid £110,000 in libel damages to a London defence firm it wrongly linked with an alleged chemical weapons plot in Syria.

    Britam Defence Limited complained that an article on the Daily Mail’s website Mail Online falsely accused two of its executives of conspiring in a “nefarious and illegal plot” in the Middle Eastern state “for enormous financial reward”.

    The article quoted one email supposedly sent between two executives at the company which claimed to show that Britam had agreed to supply chemical weapons to Homs for use in an attack. However, the emails turned out to be forged.”

    but they go on to say

    “Although a libel settlement was reached regarding naming the two Britam executives mentioned in the Mail article, it’s hard to prove that the plot itself did not happen – and herein lies the problem with the secretive shadow state and its array of private contractors in both the US and UK.”


    (not my original source, but the first one I’ve found)

  51. Good to see a broad variety of posters here. Haven’t seen that in a long time.

    I think it might have been Villager who opined on the ‘other’ thread that the alleged chemical weapons incident might have been an unlucky strike on a chem store.

    That got me thinking that perhaps highly toxic industrial chemicals were deliberately placed in an area by the rebels, with the assistance of one or more of their USUKIS friends, that was already under or likely to fall under Syrian government shelling. The intended consequence of course being that the government shelling of the area coincided with large numbers of casualties suffering fatal and near fatal reactions to an otherwise inexplicable exposure to toxic chemicals. The ensuing suspicion would then fall on the Assad regime having resorted to using chemical weapons against their own people – many of them children and necessarily so to enrage Western sensibilities to the extent that public support for military intervention would be politically popular.

    The only problem is, the Whitehouse script doesn’t make sense.

    PS – Welcome back, old man.

  52. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Aug, 2013 - 2:59 pm

    We won’t be fooled again’ is the Pentagon’s feeling as well. Everyone, nearly, has left him with this go it alone, strategy.

    ?Former and current officers, many with the painful lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan on their minds, said the main reservations concern the potential unintended consequences of launching cruise missiles against Syria.”


  53. Dreoilin, thanks – saw something on another thread about the DM being sued, but did not connect the two.

  54. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Aug, 2013 - 3:34 pm

    “Well Milliband and Alexander better not go mountain climbing or for a walk in the woods any time soon would be my advice.

    Or is this where the NSA/GCHQ Total Information Awareness comes into its own and many of the 282 MP’s who voted against the Govt. may start getting strange little calls and dark actor memos reminding them of some adolescent or otherwise indiscretion they thought nobody knew about suddenly comes back to haunt/persuade a change of position?”

    What a load of twaddle.

    But if you really believe it, then should not the Eminences also start getting worried – perhaps the security services will blackmail them too in order to stop them posting and emailing their MPs (cf John Goss’s recent post claiming that “it was we wot stopped them”)?

  55. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Aug, 2013 - 3:42 pm

    From the aptly named Nobody

    “Hullo Craig,

    You’re almost there mate. The only expression missing, as it always is, is ‘false flag’.”

    You may have noticed, laddy, that while Craig is not afraid of being controversial and, indeed, sometimes deliberately exaggerates in order to stir you all up, he keeps his feet more firmly on the ground than most of the Eminences? That includes keeping away from conspiracy theories.

    As I’ve observed before, some of Craig’s followers do him and the reputation of his blog no favours at all.


    La vita è bella, life is good! (Bombs away! Not.)

  56. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Aug, 2013 - 3:45 pm

    @ Donald

    “Let’s not forget the role the SAS had in the Basra region of southern Iraq. They would dress up as locals and go round planting car bombs in street markets. When they were caught by the Iraqi police the British Army turned up at the police station with tanks and demolished it to release their terrorist commrades.”

    Interesting if true.

    Source(s)? Preferably reliable and not some website or blog run by conspiracy nuts.


  57. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Aug, 2013 - 3:59 pm

    It was quite busy yesterday and was probably spanked for not keeping everyone too busy to call their MP. His/her/it’s humour has been tempered by the spanking, and he’s not screwing with us any more. The triad of unmentionables is down to just one, for now. It takes a while to lick the wounds.

  58. You can kill 500,000 children using sanctions, which BBC child rapists were silent about but u can not kill people with chemicals unless you are Israel or America or Iraq(acting under US/Israel directions) the Syria debate should be, This house condemns chemical weapons use by anyone other than ourselves or Israel.

  59. Bliar has made 30mill to 100mill from the illegal war he started how comes no one finds this immoral?

  60. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 5:47 pm

    @Phil. 1:39 pm

    Sofia Kibo Noh 30 Aug, 2013 – 9:01 am
    “Rare MSM articles that mention “false lags” are widely known to have disappeared from the internet.”
    Any examples please?

    Ok, I admit I only tried this one,


    All I got was,

    The page you have requested does not exist or is no longer available.”

    John Goss provided an archive link (Thanks). You can read it here.


    I wonder if Medialens have run a check on the number of times MSM articles mention “false flag” operations.

    Does anyone have other examples of disappearing articles?

  61. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 6:51 pm


    Re Disappearing DM article.

    I think I’ll have to withdraw my “disappearing articles” sentence then, but the rest of my 9 01 am post still holds, I think.

    Thanks for dismantling my claim so gracefully.

  62. @Sofia

    The dm article from the web archive was discussed a few days ago. The email was (probably) forged and the dm paid out money in compensation.

  63. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Aug, 2013 - 9:51 pm

    @Phil. 9 06pm

    Thanks. I missed that. You need to be full-time to keep up with the comments here. I love visiting but I’m not devoted enough to thoroughly catch up after every absence.

    I’m impressed by how quickly I was put right on the matter. Always good to share many eyes and perspectives.

    My assertion the it was plural “articles” was plain exaggeration.

    I can’t defend that.

    Last word to Mark Twain,
    “If a spectacle is going to be particularly imposing I prefer to see it through somebody else’s eyes, because that man will always exaggerate. Then I can exaggerate his exaggeration, and my account of the thing will be the most impressive.

  64. @Sofia

    I’ve never told you a gerzillion times about that.

    I suspect that direct censorship such as removing articles is rare. I am happy to be shown otherwise but it just isn’t needed within herman/chomsky’s propaganda model. Articles that break a tabboo are just simply buried and ignored.

    One article that I mention with boring regularity is from the telegraph. It discusses a secret air surveillance fleet run by the met police. I have never been able to find another word about the subject.


  65. BrianFujisan

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:41 am


    Another article that seems to have vanished – from Global research No less

    i put a link on my F.book page last night, and now it wont work – Page not found

    the title of the piece was

    Syria: Obama’s pretext for war? The ” rebels ” are in possession of Chemical weapons

    By Phil Greaves

  66. BrianFujisan 31 Aug, 2013 – 1:41 am
    “i put a link on my F.book page last night, and now it wont work – Page not found”

    There’s an article on dissident voice that seems to be the one you mention.


  67. BrianFujisan

    31 Aug, 2013 - 3:00 am

    @ Phil

    thanks for that, i had intended to look it up again, as my son had found it to be a good read, after my Fbook post, he is in the army, and i wanted to read that once more

    Cheers Dude

  68. Sofia Kibo Noh

    31 Aug, 2013 - 11:29 am


    I just found this.


    I’d be interested to hear anyone’s take on it.

    I’ll have a better look tonight. The sun’s shining and I’m off outside for the day now.

  69. Does it make sense that 16 pounds it trimmed off benefits for the sake of the economy, while at the same time doing everything to start a war to spend a trillion pounds?

  70. BrianFujisan

    31 Aug, 2013 - 2:25 pm

    @ Sofia

    Wow good find, but yes there’s a lot in there, will have a good look later, wee viking fest on doon the coast ( Largs ) so heading out. cheers for that link.

    @ Courtenay.

    Good point, and i fail to see how their evil war is going to benefit the people of the uk. ( other than later pay off to the already elite – as Bliar was )

  71. If only I had Obama’s brains and sense of logic – I might be able to be President.
    A. There is a gas attack against certain Syrian civilians.
    B. The attack happens at a time when the UN is proceeding to investigate and thus the President of Syria would have known, if indeed he wanted to gas his people, that this was not an opportune time. The UN inspectors are in the process of making their findings. And the Assad government, it is being widely reported, seems to have gained the upper hand against the rebels. So – why would the government gas people at this time?
    C. President Obama, prior to receipt of any UN report, and at a time when the US is in deep, deep deficit, then concludes that the best thing to do to the Syrian people, already immersed in a civil war, is to drop bombs on Syria.
    Former Congressman Ron Paul made this comment:-
    “According to recent media reports, the military does not have enough money to attack Syria and would have to go to Congress for a supplemental appropriation to carry out the strikes. It seems our empire is at the end of its financial rope. The limited strikes that the president has called for in Syria would cost the US in the hundreds of millions of dollars.”
    So, based on Obama’s logic:-
    1. Without final and/or conclusive proof, bombing Syria is a moral imperative to be pursued. Thus, the “ moral barometer country” of the world has to use this ruse – as with President Johnson announcing the North Vietnamese attack on a US ship in the Bay of Tonkin, a day before the attack took place ( he forgot the international date line) – as with WMDs in Iraq. ( As if the US has or ever had any moral barometer to measure good or bad deeds. Have we all forgotten the use of ‘agent orange’ and the widespread use of chemicals against the North Vietnamese in the Vietnam war to defoliate and try to win a war that was being lost – and – which country sold chemicals to Saddam which he used against Iran during the 8 year war, but the US simply turned a blind eye at the time) ? All this “logical posturing” so that Obama can proceed to stage 2.
    2. Bomb a country trying to get to peace talks and if negotiated terms can be reached in Geneva, to stablise the country and agree some terms for any changes some people in the country may be seeking. However, with Obama’s intended attack – that would change the narrative and the prospects on the ground in Syria would seriously worsen, by reason of a US attack which would increase, not decrease, hostilities inside and outside of Syria.
    3. Obama chooses to ignore the facts on the ground:-
    i) There are different religions in Syria, of which Christians are one. Assad maintains Syria as a secular state having a majority of Muslims. We have seen images of fundamentalist Muslim leaders sawing off heads and killing Christian priests. So, if this is the type of “tolerant” thinking and alternative grouping that the US supports to come to power – then like the “successes” in Iraq and Libya – I suspect that the Syrians are better off with the evil they have lived with as a government to this date.
    ii) Obama uses terms such as “limited” or “targeted” strikes. Yet can he ever say that the response from Syria might not be directed via groups, such as Hezbollah or Hamas against Israel. Will Syria – or Iran – spread the war wider in the Middle East or aboard to the US and/or Europe? How does one contain hostile reactions once bombs start dropping? Then what of the positions of the Chinese and Russians on the Syrian question? To its credit, the British Parliament, and the British people ( only some 11% support an attack on Syria) have taken a sane vote against war.
    iii) How can a country ( the US) deeply in debt find reason and sense, in spending more on a war that must cost billions, once started, and simultaneously there is want of American jobs, decaying infrastructure and a crippling debt burden ( which Ron Paul tells us that the media is saying will require an appropriation bill to print/ borrow more money to fight this Syrian war).
    Is Omaba – logical – a warmonger – or a “snake” ready to spew venom against any nation that displays its right to maintain independent policies as a sovereign nation?
    I, sadly and humbly forecast, that any US attack on Syria will turn out very bad for Syria, the Middle East and will spread to affect others in the world.
    So sad.
    PS. Does anyone know of any present poll figures for what the American public wants:-
    i) percentage supporting a US attack on Syria?
    ii) percentage opposing a US attack on Syria?
    Assuming that there is a democratic will of the people, then as in Britain, the Congressional vote, should bear some reference to what the constituents want. Should.


    A Century of Lies: The Rationales for Engaging in Foreign Wars, A Century-old White House Tradition

    By James F. Tracy
    Global Research, September 01, 2013
    Region: USA
    Theme: Culture, Society & History, US NATO War Agenda
    582 55 18 857

    If President Barack Obama and his administration are not lying in the lead-up to a probable bombing campaign of Syria it will be a rare exception among US Presidents, particularly since their public duplicity concerning war dates to at least the early twentieth century.

    Indeed, being forthrightly dishonest to the American people concerning the rationales for engaging in foreign wars has become a century-old White House tradition.

    The historical record of past presidents’ prewar and wartime hucksterism is unambiguous, greatly contributing to the immense bloodshed and destruction that continues under the country’s reckless international leadership to this day.

    Thomas Woodrow Wilson, Harris & Ewing bw photo portrait, 1919.jpgWoodrow Wilson: Sinking of the Lusitania–World War I, 1917-1918
    “It is a war against all nations. American ships have been sunk, American lives taken, in ways which it has stirred us very deeply to learn of, but the ships and people of other neutral and friendly nations have been sunk and overwhelmed in the waters in the same way. There has been no discrimination. The challenge is to all mankind. Each nation must decide for itself how it will meet it. The choice we make for ourselves must be made with a moderation of counsel and a temperateness of judgment befitting our character and our motives as a nation. We must put excited feeling away. Our motive will not be revenge or the victorious assertion of the physical might of the nation, but only the vindication of right, of human right, of which we are only a single champion.” April 2, 1917
    FDR in 1933.jpgFranklin D. Roosevelt: Embargo against Japan, Pearl Harbor—World War II, 1941-1945
    “Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 — a date which will live in infamy — the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan. The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.” December 8, 1941
    A middle-aged Caucasian male wearing a dark business suit and wireframe glasses is depicted smiling pensively at the camera in a black-and-white photo.Harry S. Truman: Threat of Communism, Violation of UN Charter–Korean War 1950-1953
    “On Sunday, June 25th, Communist forces attacked the Republic of Korea. This attack has made it clear, beyond all doubt, that the international Communist movement is willing to use armed invasion to conquer independent nations. An act of aggression such as this creates a very real danger to the security of all free nations. The attack upon Korea was an outright breach of the peace and a violation of the Charter of the United Nations. By their actions in Korea, Communist leaders have demonstrated their contempt for the basic moral principles on which the United Nations is founded. This is a direct challenge to the efforts of the free nations to build the kind of world in which men can live in freedom and peace. This challenge has been presented squarely. We must meet it squarely. . . .” July 19, 1950
    37 Lyndon Johnson 3×4.jpgLyndon B. Johnson: Tonkin Gulf Incident, “Domino Effect”—Vietnam War, 1964-1974; “War on Poverty”
    “Last night I announced to the American people that the North Vietnamese regime had conducted further deliberate attacks against U.S. naval vessels operating in international waters, and therefore directed air action against gunboats and supporting facilities used in these hostile operations. This air action has now been carried out with substantial damage to the boats and facilities. Two U.S. aircraft were lost in the action. After consultation with the leaders of both parties in the Congress, I further announced a decision to ask the Congress for a resolution expressing the unity and determination of the United States in supporting freedom and in protecting peace in southeast Asia. These latest actions of the North Vietnamese regime have given’ a new and grave turn to the already serious situation in southeast Asia.” August 5, 1964

    Richard Nixon.jpgRichard M. Nixon: “Vietnamization”; Bombing of Cambodia, 1969-1973; “War on Crime”
    “Tonight, American and South Vietnamese units will attack the headquarters for the entire Communist military operation in South Vietnam … This is not an invasion of Cambodia … We take this action not for the purpose of expanding the war into Cambodia but for the purpose of ending the war in Vietnam and winning the just peace we all desire. We have made we will continue to make every possible effort to end this war through negotiation at the conference table rather than through more fighting on the battlefield…. The action that I have announced tonight puts the leaders of North Vietnam on notice that we will be patient in working for peace; we will be conciliatory at the conference table, but we will not be humiliated. We will not be defeated.” April 30, 1970
    Official Portrait of President Reagan 1981.jpgRonald Reagan: Threat to American medical students—Invasion of Grenada, 1983; Bombing of Libya, 1986; US vs. “Evil Empire”–Cold War 1981-1989; “I don’t recall.”—Iran-Contra; “War on Drugs”
    “In all, Reagan said ‘I don`t recall’ or ‘I can`t remember’ 88 times in the eight hours of testimony on Iran-Contra on Feb. 16-17, 1990,” the New York Times observes.
    “I remember being told that there were certain levels of government or agencies and so forth that were not prohibited by the Boland Amendment, and I remember that. And this was in connection with my telling us that we must stay within the law and so forth. And I never challenged or questioned what I was told about that or something else because, not being a lawyer myself, but being surrounded by a number of them in government, I figured that I was hearing the truth when they told me that something could be done and still be exempt from the Boland Amendment.” February 16-17, 1990

    George H. W. Bush, President of the United States, 1989 official portrait.jpgGeorge H. W. Bush: “Drug indicted dictator” Manuel Noriega—Invasion of Panama, 1989; “Incubator Babies Story”–Gulf War, 1991; “War on Drugs” (continued)
    “And I am very much concerned, not just about the physical dismantling but of the brutality that has now been written on by Amnesty International confirming some of the tales told us by the Amir of brutality. It’s just unbelievable, some of the things at least he reflected. I mean, people on a dialysis machine cut off, the machine sent to Baghdad; babies in incubators heaved out of the incubators and the incubators themselves sent to Baghdad. Now, I don’t know how many of these tales can be authenticated, but I do know that when the Amir was here he was speaking from the heart. And after that came Amnesty International, who were debriefing many of the people at the border. And it’s sickening.” October 9, 1990
    Bill Clinton.jpgWilliam J. Clinton: “Humanitarian Intervention”—NATO bombing of Bosnia and Herzegovina 1995; “Humanitarian Intervention”—NATO bombing of Yugoslavia 1999
    “Our humanitarian coordinator, Brian Atwood, who just returned from the region, has described an elderly Albanian woman he met in a camp outside Tirana. She saw all the male members of her family and most of the men in her village rounded up by Serbian authorities, tied up, doused with gasoline, and set on fire in front of their families. It’s the kind of story that would be too horrible to believe if it were not so consistent with what so many other refugees have been saying. What we need to remember is that this is the result of a meticulously planned campaign, not an isolated incident of out-of- control rage, a campaign organized by the government of Belgrade for a specific political purpose –to maintain its grip over Kosovo by ridding the land of its people. This policy must be defeated.” April 28, 1999

    George-W-Bush.jpegGeorge W. Bush: “Al Qaeda” attack of 9/11—Afghanistan, 2001-present, “War on Terror,”—2001-present; 9/11 and Iraq’s alleged “Weapons of Mass Destruction”–Iraq 2003-present
    “Facing clear evidence or peril, we cannot wait for the final proof–the smoking gun–that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. Understanding the threats of our time, knowing the designs and deceptions of the Iraqi regime, we have every reason to assume the worst, and we have an urgent duty to prevent the worst from occurring.” October 6, 2002

    U.S. President Barack Obama is photographed standing in front of the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office of the White House, December 6, 2012.Barack H. Obama: “Humanitarian Intervention” and “Responsibility to Protect”—NATO Bombing, Guerrilla War in Libya, 2011; “Humanitarian Intervention” and “Responsibility to Protect”—Guerrilla War in Syria 2011-present
    “In a volatile situation like this one, it is imperative that the nations and peoples of the world speak with one voice, and that has been our focus … Yesterday a unanimous U.N. Security Council sent a clear message that it condemns the violence in Libya, supports accountability for the perpetrators, and stands with the Libyan people. Like all governments, the Libyan government has a responsibility to refrain from violence, to allow humanitarian assistance to reach those in need, and to respect the rights of its people. It must be held accountable for its failure to meet those responsibilities, and face the cost of continued violations of human rights.” February 22, 2011

  73. Russia has handed Obama a diplomatic ace:-
    • The chemical weapons in Syria will be placed under UN international control/supervision. It must follow that since an allegation of the Syrian government’s use of chemical weapons was the reason to call for a “war”/”limited strikes” against Syria ( i.e. firing a number of 1,000 pound Tomahawk missiles or a package of some 166 smaller bomblets in said missiles – is just a “limited” slap on the wrist for Syria?). The advantage to Obama, in accepting the Russian/Syria deal is that he would not have to face a Congressional defeat on the vote to strike Syria. He can then claim that his tough foreign policy stand forced Syria to do the right thing. Victory for the US.
    • Assad can, no doubt, make secret a large part of his chemical stockpile. It might not be that easy to verify the total stockpile of chemical weapons without having had some historical records that are verifiable, truthful and accurate. But, that is to the advantage of Syria and the job of the UN weapons inspectors. The decision to place Syrian chemical weapons under international control/scrutiny gives Assad an escape route in that he can still maintain that his government did not use chemicals to attack Syrian civilians while simultaneously projecting himself as a responsible leader. Victory for Syria.
    • Russia, having dealt the card it has, can state to the international community that it believes in the solution to international problems through diplomatic means and that is why the proposal was placed before the international community by Russia. Victory for Russia.
    It is hard for me to conceive that this proposal does not solve the problem of a looming war being started against Syria. It is still however early days, but given the mix of contemporary US politics; Russian interests; Syrian desires to maintain power in a viable and peaceful way – I must rely on precedent to guess, going forward, what the players are likely to do.
    Cuban Missile Crisis
    • US wanted to place missiles in Turkey and had warheads in Italy.
    • Soviet Union found such placements unacceptable and responded by locating Soviet missiles in Cuba. An international standoff took place, bringing the world to the brink of nuclear war.
    • A solution came when the US behind the scenes agreed to remove the missiles from Turkey and disarm the missiles in Italy; in turn the Soviet Union removed its missiles from Cuba and the US publicly declared that it would never invade Cuba.
    Win-win – win solution for US, Soviet Union and Cuba ( if we ignore the on-going Cuban economic blockade).
    So now – which side still needs a war in Syria?

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