The Troodos Conundrum

by craig on August 31, 2013 8:43 am in Uncategorized

troodos2

 

The GCHQ listening post on Mount Troodos in Cyprus is arguably the most valued asset which the UK contributes to UK/US intelligence cooperation.  The communications intercept agencies, GCHQ in the UK and NSA in the US, share all their intelligence reports (as do the CIA and MI6).  Troodos is valued enormously by the NSA.  It monitors all radio, satellite and microwave traffic across the Middle East, ranging from Egypt and Eastern Libya right through to the Caucasus.  Even almost all landline telephone communication in this region is routed through microwave links at some stage, picked up on Troodos.

Troodos is highly effective – the jewel in the crown of British intelligence.  Its capacity and efficiency, as well as its reach, is staggering.  The US do not have their own comparable facility for the Middle East.  I should state that I have actually been inside all of this facility and been fully briefed on its operations and capabilities, while I was head of the FCO Cyprus Section in the early 1990s.  This is fact, not speculation.

It is therefore very strange, to say the least, that John Kerry claims to have access to communications intercepts of Syrian military and officials organising chemical weapons attacks, which intercepts were not available to the British Joint Intelligence Committee.

On one level the explanation is simple.  The intercept evidence was provided to the USA by Mossad, according to my own well  placed source in the Washington intelligence community.  Intelligence provided by a third party is not automatically shared with the UK, and indeed Israel specifies it should not be.

But the inescapable question is this.  Mossad have nothing comparable to the Troodos operation.  The reported content of the conversations fits exactly with key tasking for Troodos, and would have tripped all the triggers.  How can Troodos have missed this if Mossad got it?  The only remote possibility is that all the conversations went on a purely landline route, on which Mossad have a physical wire tap, but that is very unlikely in a number of ways – not least nowadays the purely landline route.

Israel has repeatedly been involved in the Syrian civil war, carrying out a number of illegal bombings and missile strikes over many months.  This absolutely illegal activity by Israel- which has killed a great many civilians, including children – has brought no condemnation at all from the West.  Israel has now provided “intelligence” to the United States designed to allow the United States to join in with Israel’s bombing and missile campaign.

The answer to the Troodos Conundrum is simple.  Troodos did not pick up the intercepts because they do not exist.  Mossad fabricated them.  John Kerry’s “evidence” is the shabbiest of tricks.  More children may now be blown to pieces by massive American missile blasts.  It is nothing to do with humanitarian intervention.  It is, yet again, the USA acting at the behest of Israel.

 

 

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433 Comments

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  1. You can’t write off Israel’s communications intelligence capability so quickly. Have you had a look at their Unit 8200? See in particular what the French have been saying about it? Their Urim listening base in the Negev is pretty damned capable.

    Many top Israeli techies have a background there. The Stuxnet virus, for example, was created at Unit 8200.

    Here’s a question you might ask your well-placed source in US intelligence: where are Unit 8200’s main bases abroad?.

    One of my guesses would be Singapore. Israel built up the Singaporean armed forces after the British left, and the Singaporean airforce has a presence on several airbases dotted around the world.

    Unit 8200 also run facilities at several Israeli embassies. Which ones?

    Note for those who don’t know already: Unit 8200 isn’t part of Mossad; it’s part of the army, although it supplies information to Mossad and other agencies. Some of the Israeli intelligence work in Syria is also done not by Mossad (which is civilian, like MI6) but by Aman, the military intelligence agency.

  2. How can Troodos have missed this if Mossad got it? The only remote possibility is that all the conversations went on a purely landline route

    Replace “Mossad” with “Unit 8200” and the question weakens considerably.

    A physical tap on a landline is by no means the only possibility.

  3. N

    Err, no. If “Unit 8200” could get it, so could Troodos. Israel of course has communications intercept facilities, but they are nowhere near the capability of the UK/US operation. The myth of effortless Israeli technological superiority in every field is a bit silly.

    Of course a physical tap on a landline is not the only possibility. It is however the only possibility I can think of which Troodos would not also be able to get, and even then only if the route was pure landline (unlikely). Your argument is that Israel would have the capacity to intercept communication; indeed they would. But they would not have the ability to intercept communication which Troodos could not intercept.

  4. Craig, are you genned up on the battle between the CIA and other US agencies, most notably the NSA but also including the military, over who should appoint CIA Station Chiefs, including in London?

    See for example this article from the Spectator in 2009.

    The head of the CIA’s London station always used to be a de factor member of the UK’s Joint Intelligence Commitee. I don’t think that’s ever been mentioned in the UK press. It’s an important fact, though, if anyone needs further proof of the UK’s status as a dependency or neo-colony of the US.

    The NSA tried to muscle in and gain the right to appoint the top CIA guys at foreign stations, in particular the main guy in London. Part of their reasoning was that the NSA has a much bigger presence in the UK than the CIA does.

    In terms of substance rather than surface, that particular NSA-CIA spat may be about control over the JIC being taken by a certain shitty little country in the Middle East…

  5. Nobody was coming from any myth of effortless Israeli techie superiority.

    What’s your basis for thinking the Israelis are nowhere near the capability of the US and UK? Maybe you have been misled. If you reject the French assertions published in Le Monde, is that because you think they are disinformation or is it because you think the French genuinely get it wrong whereas the information you received in British service was correct?

    Or one could ask, was it only because of a commitment to honesty and correctness that these assertions were hardly touched in the British and US media? :)

  6. N_

    The CIA certainly get JIC reports, and of course their intelligence material is a major part of the input. But they are not de facto members and they don’t attend the meetings, either of JIC or its sub-committees. Again, I do speak as a first hand witness.

    I don’t think the NSA have a hope in hell of getting control – or meaningful input – on Heads of Station appointments. In both UK and US, NSA and GCHQ are much more important than CIA/MI6 in useful intelligence provision, but remain politically a very great deal weaker. Anyway we are getting off topic!

  7. “The Stuxnet virus, for example, was created at Unit 8200.”

    This is partly why Fukishima is such a massive disaster – 4 times more radioactivity released than Chernobyl with a run-away core eating through th earth’s crust and poisioning the Pacific Ocean.

    The TEPCO engineers were unable to shut the reactors down after the earthquake and before the Tsunami hit. This is what Stuxnet was designed to do, prevent Iranian engineers from stopping their reactors from destroying themseleves in the event of a malfunction. Israel and the US basically caused Fukishima with their reckless use of ‘cyber weapons’.

    They really are a monkies with grenades, as people wise up to the damage these two nations have done to the Earth and it’s people one really must have genuine concern for their fututre well-being as nations.

    One day we might have to go in there and the stop the Americans and Israeli regime from killing their ownm people.

  8. Dick the Prick

    31 Aug, 2013 - 9:42 am

    Glad you’re back Craig and hope you’re in fine fettle.

  9. The fake conversation contrived between the israeli attackers and the mavi marmara crew which they leaked after the incident in their defence is a classic pointer of the mossad capabilities.

  10. I don’t think you even need to question the validity of the intelligence, we all know it’s fake, they’ve been doing the same thing for years. The way the current military and propaganda operation is currently playing out, it seems like this has been a planned operation from the start. On the 2oth of August, the day before the chemical attack, Press TV’s Youtube account was cancelled by Youtube. According to Press TV this was due to pressure from the Israeli-American Anti-Defamation League (ADL).

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/08/20/319607/youtube-attacks-press-tv-again/

    This is the first rule of warfare, insure that you control the propaganda.

  11. Hmmm… very interesting, thanks Craig. The lying bastards.

    Hypocrites too:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/government-may-sanction-chemical-incapacitant-use-on-rioters-scientists-fear-6612084.html

    Anyone else remember when the UK govt threatened the use of chemical weapons on its own population?

  12. It’s all a bit odd but I think you’re deducing way more than the evidence supports. Microwave links are pretty much point-to-point. If you’re not roughly in-line with the link you won’t hear a lot. Israel has more land close enough and also, perhaps, more motivation to insert repeaters to do interception so is more likely to be able to listen in. Or maybe both Israel and the UK physically received the RF signal but Israel, via some method or other (human intelligence, stuxnet-style attacks or whatever) had the encryption keys. Who knows?

    Similar sort of thing to wonder about: supposedly both Greenwald in Rio and Poitras in Berlin had complete copies of the Snowden files from their meetings with him in Hong Kong. Yet, for some reason, Miranda was supposed to be carrying a copy of some of that data from Berlin to Rio. Why? Could be something mundane like Greenwald had forgotten the key on some of the data or something. Or maybe somebody else has leaked additional material to Poitras. Or what?

    Frankly, taking whatever anybody says at face value is getting rather hard.

  13. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:48 am

    “The head of the CIA’s London station always used to be a de factor member of the UK’s Joint Intelligence Commitee. I don’t think that’s ever been mentioned in the UK press.”
    _______________

    I don’t think that’s correct (about it never having been mentioned in the press, I mean). And I think you can replace “used to be” by “is”.
    And finally, I don’t find that especially strange (or reprehensible for that matter).

  14. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 10:51 am

    Perhaps a representative of the US NSA rather than the CIA.

  15. Ed,

    No they can pick up microwave links all over the area. Remember they have budgets in billions and thousands of people, many of them extremely brilliant, working on this. I know specifically that they can do this – indeed they could do it very effectively twenty years ago, and presumably even more efficiently now.

  16. It turns out not only Kerry’s intercepts are fake, his pictures are too

    http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-kerry-caught-using-fake-photos-to-fuel-syrian-wa/

  17. Well, apparently Kerry’s speech began with a fake photo.

    http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-kerry-caught-using-fake-photos-to-fuel-syrian-wa/

    That’s a bad indicator re the rigour behind the other information he presented.

    Even from the military point of view, this is a botch up. The last thing to do when launching a strike is to signal the intention before hand, so that they can take cover. But as its much to with Obama’s vanity… and nothing to do with pushing for peace…

    In their mad rush they’ll lose any leverage they have – just as soon as they carry out the attack. The sword hanging over Assad’s head will be gone. And if subsequent evidence implicates the rebels… or says it wasn’t a nerve agent…

  18. Oops… beat me to it Craig…

  19. may I remind you of the fake israli transmission(s) concerning the tripoli bombing by the Reagan gang in 1986 (I think, not sure)just after (or was it before?) the “la belle” berlin discoteque incident,giving the impression that the Libyans were involved — details you find in Victor Ostrovsky’s books, and there were many other strange things in the past in connection with various (attempted)bombings (Hindawi affair, lockerbie, 7/7 etc.)

  20. Ed,

    Yet, for some reason, Miranda was supposed to be carrying a copy of some of that data from Berlin to Rio. Why? Could be something mundane like Greenwald had forgotten the key on some of the data or something. Or maybe somebody else has leaked additional material to Poitras. Or what?

    If both Poitras and Greenwald have the whole stash there wouldn’t be any need to courier it between them. So it must be something extra to that. Poitras is in the middle of making a film about whistleblowers (inc. the footage she’s shot of Edward Snowden, obviously) – perhaps it was material related to that film? Or additional materials gathered to help with the analysis of the original documents?

    Greenwald is insistent that David Miranda was NOT carrying a password on a piece of paper, or at least not the password to the Snowden docs:

    Anyone claiming that David Miranda was carrying a password that allowed access to documents is lying. UK itself says they can’t access them.
    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/373451644794449922

    Read the whole thread. I believe him, because this:

    Well-placed source tells me government genuinely worried that it will lose on #Miranda challenge to legality of schedule 7 detention.
    https://twitter.com/JackofKent/status/373431141421690881

    There’s a link within that thread to Miranda’s lawyers’ statement following this latest hearing.

    It stands to reason that GCHQ would not have to “reconstruct” 75 files if they already had the decryption key to 58,000.

    The lying bastards.

  21. “The Niger uranium forgeries are forged documents initially revealed by SISMI (Italian military intelligence). These documents seem to depict an attempt made by Saddam Hussein in Iraq to purchase yellowcake uranium powder from Niger during the Iraq disarmament crisis.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries

    “Blair, moreover, appears to be sticking by the Niger uranium allegation despite the White House retraction”

    http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,463779,00.html

  22. Je, 11.07am

    And if subsequent evidence implicates the rebels… or says it wasn’t a nerve agent…

    If it isn’t Sarin, what is it?
    http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/If-not-Sarin_then-what.pdf

    Dan Kaszeta is the author of “CBRN and Hazmat Incidents at Major Public Events: Planning and Response” (Wiley, 2012) as well as a number of magazine articles and conference papers. He has 22 years of experience in CBRN, having served as an officer in the US Army Chemical Corps, as CBRN [Chemical, Biological, Radiological, and Nuclear Defense] advisor for the White House Military Office, and as a specialist in the US Secret Service.

  23. Arbed… I said “if”. I don’t have a link, as I don’t remember where, but another well-credentialed expert somewhere was saying it was missing some of the features that he would expect with Sarin.

    *

    What might be more effective than a strike would be to leave the promise of one hanging for a long time so Assad’s forces are impeded by having to take cover. Plus a push for a truce, negotiations, peace. But Obama has his prove-myself-tough timetable to keep.

  24. Those who govern us are devoid of anykind of humanity, morals or scruples, being a megalomaniac is indentured into their very being.

    They cultivate their children into their way of thinking, it goes on through their generations, they send them to very expensive schools to out think those who would oppose them.

  25. I’m expecting a big laff in response to this but…does SIS have reciprocal representation at US Intel mtgs?

  26. Je, 11.29

    Sure, I think we’re on the same page. That pdf report – it’s only 6 pages long – is very, very interesting.

    Personally, I think there is far more evidence that whatever the chemical was, it was used by the US-armed and trained rebel forces. That was also the conclusion of the last UN inspector of chemical weapons use in Syria, Carla del Ponte, but there was little coverage of that report in the Western media (quel surprise). What Kerry said about the attack being in a rebel-held suburb is also false.

  27. @Craig

    Infowars? You are linking to infowars? I am taken aback.

    I have just looked at the site for the first time in a very long time. I admit it looks far less carzy than it use to. But I assume you do know alex joneses history. He used to claim all the lizard stuff. He used to show hazy videos of people in the distance jumping around a fire as proof of the iiluminatis dreadfullness. He used to make outrageous claims based more on his own madness than the grain of truth he clings to. He is a clown.

    Either my assessment of infowars as a fucking joke or you as a wise man is fucked. I’d be very interested to know why you think infowars is source worth linking to.

  28. “Intoxicated with hubris from past successful lies and deceptions used to destroy Iraq and Libya, Obama thought the US “superpower,” the “exceptional” and “indispensable” country, could pull it off again, this time in Syria.”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/08/30/america-totally-discredited-paul-craig-roberts/

  29. Arbed – I couldn’t get your link to work but there are links here:

    http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/resources/syria/

    And on that page he puts:

    “At least one commentator has noted that numerous tanneries were located in the area of Damascus where the incident(s) occurred. “

  30. I don’t believe that the zionist colonists are the tail wagging the dog, I think it’s convenient for the US empire to pretend that they are and it’s a version of blaming the contractor. The zionists have been able to extract a higher price for US complaisance only because the other US base – Iran escaped their grasp in 1979.

    Zionist machinations in Syria may have a certain autonomy from US interests but only up to a point Lord Copper. Iran is the prize, pipelineistan will follow if it falls and that’s what Caesar wants.

  31. Phil,

    Presumably you would accept that Alex Jones can be right if asked, for example, what the time is? The material on the reuse of an old photo by Kerry as new evidence appears convincing. It is rather a spurious trick of internet trolling to claim a link implies endorsement of everything the site linked to has ever said.

  32. Je, 11.57

    Ahh! Apparently, the author took it down to revise it with updated info. Here’s the new version:

    What Happened? If it isn’t Sarin, what is it?
    http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pdf

  33. @Craig

    Blimey. My question was sincere. I don’t think I deserve to be called a troll by you mate.

    I did not say you endorsed everything jones says. I was saying he cannot be believed because he makes mad shit up. So to link to him because he has a story you want to believe discredits your judgement.

  34. Someone, still, we can understand now more clearly why fate selected Ed Miliband, rather than his brother, to lead Labour.

    Of course we are all conditioned beings. To be aware of it and live in that constant awareness is our task.

    I disagree with Craig that we should not celebrate. The vote is a victory for the *people* of Britain in *their* overall sense of fairness and lack of support for violence, regardless of the narrow margins within the vote. This is proof that people can make the difference at a political level through simple consciousness. Our task now is for each of us to drill deeper and negate violence at every level. It is an extraordinary opportunity, coming as it is 12 years deep into the era of the GWOT, to build a saner society.

  35. Craig, in addition to your substance, your eloquence, at all times, is to be applauded.

  36. Exellent Post Craig, and an Enlightening new angle on all of this. thank you.

    Heartbreaking what the lying evil bastards are getting away with.

  37. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 12:48 pm

    Off topic but ‘fate’ had nothing to do with Mi(l)lipede Junior’s election. It was the unions’ backing primarily.

    ‘Other senior Labour figures who backed the younger Miliband included former Deputy Leaders Roy Hattersley and Margaret Beckett. By 9 June, the deadline for entry into the Labour leadership contest, Miliband had been nominated by just over 24% of the Parliamentary Labour Party, double the amount required. By September, Miliband had received the support of six trade unions, including both Unite and UNISON, 151 of the Constituency Labour Parties, three affiliated socialist societies, and half of the Labour MEPs.’

  38. Craig – apologies for getting a little bit off topic, insofar as possibly distracting from your main thesis here, namely that the ‘information’ indicating that Syrian government forces recently used chemical weapons was concocted and supplied by the Israelis – which seems surely to be the truth.

    That said,…

    …I’m very surprised to hear what you say about the CIA station chief not attending JIC meetings. When did that practice stop? Can you comment on this article by Stephen Grey in the New Statesman from 2003? He describes a tradition whereby the CIA guy leaves the room before the second ‘domestic only’ part of the meeting.

    On the matter of what happened in the House of Commons, of course it is good to see as many MPs as possible vote against attacking Syria, whichever party they are in. Everyone is very welcome indeed to do the right thing when it is a matter of opposing the slaughter of innocents. But I think the ‘incompetence of the whips’ line sounds as if it was made up

    a) to give members of the chattering classes something to talk about, and

    b) to distract from the real issues, thereby preparing for House of Commons support at a later stage.

    Did the Israelis push too far, having wrongly gauged the level of obedience they could count on?

    Was it a dry run?

    I don’t know. Either might be the case, or a mixture of both. But I don’t believe Labour pulled a fast one. They’re too supine for that.

    Here’s the list of ‘Tory rebels’. How many known relationships to the Conservative Friends of Israel? And to the British or US military or intelligence and security communities? Just wondering…

    David Amess
    Steve Baker
    Richard Bacon
    John Baron
    Andrew Bingham
    Crispin Blunt
    Fiona Bruce
    Tracey Crouch
    David TC Davies
    Philip Davies
    David Davis
    Nick de Bois
    Richard Drax
    Gordon Henderson
    Philip Hollobone
    Adam Holloway
    Dr Phillip Lee
    Dr Julian Lewis
    Jason McCartney
    Stephen McPartland
    Nigel Mills
    Anne Marie Morris
    Andrew Percy
    Sir Richard Shepherd
    Sir Peter Tapsell
    Andrew Turner
    Martin Vickers
    Charles Walker
    Chris White
    Dr Sarah Wollaston

    I doubt the Syrian government did use chemical weapons, because first-order analysis suggests it’s the side that’s losing the war with conventional weapons that would be first to reach into the chemistry cabinet, not the side that’s winning.

  39. @ Someone
    31 Aug, 2013 – 11:49 am

    Further to my comment above, i might add that its a fact that consciousness, unlike nations, knows no boundaries. I would not underestimate the impact of the Commons vote on the desire for common-folk global villagers around the World to end this blasted War on Terror and start a fresh chapter. This may be wishful thinking but it might just prove to be a mutation point.

    It is unfortunate that Obama the Nobel Peace Prize winner (me still laughing/crying after all these years) is unable to turn statesman and take advantage of this opportunity.

  40. Craig 31 Aug, 2013 – 12:02 pm

    “The material on the reuse of an old photo by Kerry as new evidence appears convincing.”

    That is plain old bs. Jones is an internet innovator. He has been selling exaggeration and extrapolation for far longer than I suspect you have been familiar with him. He is very good at it. But he is a liar. I would have thought you would want more than the word of a liar even if the liar presented evidence that “appears convincing”.

    “It is rather a spurious trick of internet trolling to claim a link implies endorsement of everything the site linked to has ever said.”

    This comment of yours fails your own standard that commentaters tackle the substance of an argument rather than attribute motivation to others.

    I am surprised at your belligerence. You have been disingenuous calling me a troll and have displayed an embarrassing lack of judgement by linking to infowars. So we all make mistakes. However, given your pretensions to open debate I am disappointed that you neither present a case for your actions nor accept your mistake with grace.

  41. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:17 pm

    Fascinating piece – and important. Was talking to a friend yesterday who had swallowed the ‘we know it was definitely Assad because of the intercepted messages’ line. It still didn’t make her conclude that we, or anyone, should bomb people in response, but it worried her. She, and most people I know, now just desperately want to help the current victims. Otherwise, no-one can believe the way that Labour’s opposition is being spun and derided as more ‘politicking’: it should be seen as a landmark, I think.

  42. “On the 2oth of August, the day before the chemical attack, Press TV’s Youtube account was cancelled by Youtube. According to Press TV this was due to pressure from the Israeli-American Anti-Defamation League (ADL).”

    A large number of the videos claiming to show the victims were also uploaded the day before. The stench of this being a black-op is overwhelming.

  43. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:33 pm

    Phil: It is a fact that the BBC used an old photo from Iraq in 2003 and attributed it to the Syrian massacre has been widely covered. The photographer, whose picture it was has spoken out:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9293620/BBC-News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html

    and elsewhere. The BBC admitted the mistake and withdrew the photograph.

    John Kerry certainly sounds as though he is referring to that picture. “We saw rows of dead in burial shrounds, in white linen…unstained by a single drop of blood”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/31/world/middleeast/john-kerry-syria.html?_r=0

    about four minutes into the speech.

    So perhaps you could check the facts yourself before complaining about them.

  44. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:35 pm

    And perhaps the fact that Kerry uses that picture in the middle of his other ‘compelling’ and ‘clear’ evidence is rather important, don’t you think?

  45. Technicolour 31 Aug, 2013 – 1:33 pm
    “Phil: It is a fact that the BBC used an old photo from Iraq in 2003 and attributed it to the Syrian massacre has been widely covered.”

    The veracity of the story has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I am merely saying that relying on a professional liar as a source is not what I expected from craig.

  46. As regards Alex Jones, he’s a cult leader, not a reliable source of information, he twists the facts to suit his agenda then uses brain washing techniques to make the gullible believe them. I looked into him a while back after someone I knew was convinced the Arctic ice extent was increasing despite the obvious evidence it was decreasing.

    As for Kerry, he didn’t use any photos, I’ve seen video of the speech in question, no pictures were used to illustrate it. He did make reference to photos which may sound similar to the one the BBC was taken in by.

    I wouldn’t believe a word either Alex Jones or Kerry says myself.

  47. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:53 pm

    Phil: except that when you check you see the Infowars piece (not written by Jones, apparently) links to the Telegraph piece (I already knew from other sources but found that link by looking myself). It did not bother to transcribe Kerry’s actual description which is a mistake, journalistically, but not, it seems, factually.

  48. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:54 pm

    Fred: agree about Alex Jones generally.

  49. Technicolour 31 Aug, 2013 – 1:33 pm
    “Phil: It is a fact that the BBC used an old photo from Iraq in 2003 and attributed it to the Syrian massacre has been widely covered.”

    Come off it technicolour you conflated two different stories. You seem to be saying that the media lies so this story by a media liar about the media lying must be true. Do you believe the liar this time just because craig links to it?

    This is important to me because I have often disagreed with craigs conclusions but never previously doubted his integrity.

  50. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 1:58 pm

    And it’s true that Kerry may not have been referring to the BBC photo: there are other photos of rows of dead in burial shrouds from Syria.

  51. technicolour

    31 Aug, 2013 - 2:03 pm

    Phil, no, I never believe anything. I do think that referring to something in a passing comment is not the same as writing an in-depth and researched piece about it, so it wouldn’t make me question someone’s integrity as a result.

  52. Phil
    31 Aug, 2013 – 11:49 am
    “@Craig

    Infowars? You are linking to infowars? I am taken aback.
    ……
    Either my assessment of infowars as a fucking joke or you as a wise man is fucked.”

    A. Craig is not @Craig (at Craig) — he is simply the Craig who he says he is, which we all know. So wrong addressing. And i hand it to him for his courage and persistence.

    B. Good that Craig can see how people here are willing to be disgraceful, loose with their language and dish it out, then suddenly turn thin-skinned when it comes back to them, even with style.

    I mean, come on ” or you as a wise man is fucked” — doesn’t reveal much in the way of preparation for social bearings. So let’s not get into this childish nonsense stuff, which you don’t believe in yourself, of ” This comment of yours fails your own standard that commentaters tackle the substance of an argument rather than attribute motivation to others.”

    My motivation to write here is that *total observation* requires utter and complete clarity. Grace helps too, even in the political world.

  53. Technicolour 31 Aug, 2013 – 2:03 pm
    “I do think that referring to something in a passing comment is not the same as writing an in-depth and researched piece about it, so it wouldn’t make me question someone’s integrity as a result.”

    Fair point with which I agree. I am possibly over egging this because craig responded by calling me a troll and claimed that because jones might not lie about the time he might be true with this.

    However, linking to infowars as a source is ridiculous.

  54. @Villager

    Go fuck yourself you hollow ingratiate.

  55. A post based on solid information – Thank-you Craig.

    Phil – stop whining – “..a spurious trick of internet trolling..” is not calling you a troll in any double take.

  56. Mark Stephen Golding 31 Aug, 2013 – 2:20 pm
    “Phil – stop whining – “..a spurious trick of internet trolling..” is not calling you a troll in any double take.”

    Don’t be daft. Of course he called me a troll. What other possible meaning could he have meant. But, it is besides the point and I will not whine about it again.

    However, I notice you do not tackle the clear point of my comments which is that craig discredits himself by relying on a well known professional liar as a source. Which is no great surprise from someone who regularly confidently asserts the impossible to know as fact.

    Talking of which perhaps you could explain how you know the sas are in syria as you stated yesterday . Don’t get me wrong I suspect they probably are. But you seem to know.

  57. “Phil
    31 Aug, 2013 – 2:13 pm
    @Villager

    Go fuck yourself you hollow ingratiate.”
    _________

    No thanks Phil. Far be it from me to grab your stage. You’re doing a fine job yourself! Carry on….

  58. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 2:51 pm

    The real John Kerry.

    The Blood-Soaked Resumé of a Peace Broker
    What John Kerry Really Did in Vietnam

    by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

    With John Kerry currently in full Henry Kissinger regalia, parading around the Middle East, brow-beating the Palestinians and their allies in the region and Europe into signing onto a deeply flawed peace accord that primarily serves Israeli and American interests, it may prove a useful exercise to inspect the curriculum vitae of this putative peace-maker, especially during those formative years when the Secretary of State first carved out his name in the jungles of Southeast Asia. Though Kerry has a reputation as an anti-war activist, his brief tenure in Vietnam and Cambodia was notable both for acts of casual savagery and his striking lack of contrition for his own participation in atrocities that in a rational society might easily be classified as war crimes.–JSC

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/26/what-john-kerry-really-did-in-vietnam/
    July 26 2013

  59. Phil – ..and compromise a valuable, even cherished source; – Phil you know me better – do you not?

    I am not a ‘Juliet’ of Mr Jones, neither I suspect is Craig. Infowars is a compilation – period.

  60. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 2:53 pm

    Will it be pistols at dawn?

    Russia’s Vladimir Putin challenges US on Syria claims
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23911833#

  61. Brother Nathanael has some well researched presentations on YouTube. He grew up as an American Jew, but converted to Orthodox Christianity:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvmXbFxdaAc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUtBqVgzL_cDv_t9o2hFiXXg

  62. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 3:00 pm

    This should be interesting. See who turns up in 5 days’ time.

    Leaders’ Summit 2013

    Russia assumed the G20 presidency for the first time on December 1, 2012. The G20 is the leading international cooperation forum, focusing on the most important international economic and financial issues. The G20 Leaders’ Summit, to be held in St. Petersburg on September 5-6, 2013, will be the main G20 event of 2013.

    http://www.g20.org/docs/summit/summit_2013.html

  63. Mark Stephen Golding 31 Aug, 2013 – 2:51 pm
    “Infowars is a compilation – period.”

    I’m not sure I get your point: A liar posts an article on his web site. You seem to be saying that because the liar says it was written by someone else then it must be true.

    “Phil – ..and compromise a valuable, even cherished source; – Phil you know me better – do you not?”

    Sorry mate, I don’t know you. I hope you understand that I do not take seriously a commentator on the internet who wants me to simply trust they have insider knowledge about special forces.

  64. BBC News uses ‘Iraq photo to illustrate Syrian massacre’

    All too often we are caught up in our own foibles, and enjoy being ever so condescending about certain others.

    The data can be corroborated, in a very short time, and the veracity or lack thereof can be ascertained without the song and the dance.

  65. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 3:11 pm

    @ Villager

    Good to see you back.

    “It is unfortunate that Obama the Nobel Peace Prize winner (me still laughing/crying after all these years) is unable to turn statesman and take advantage of this opportunity.”
    ______________

    Maybe he will yet. Jeez, give the man time, you musn’t expect open action/reaction within the 24 hours. Don’t you agree?

  66. Passerby 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:09 pm
    “The data can be corroborated, in a very short time, and the veracity or lack thereof can be ascertained without the song and the dance.”

    But passerby the veracity of the story has nothing to do with my point, which is not to rely on professional liars as a source.

  67. “This should be interesting. See who turns up in 5 days’ time.”

    So, the original plan was for the ‘special relates’ to arrive macho-style all chuffed up after another round of bombing. Doubt that Obama will have the balls to take action till after the G-20 meeting where he’ll be trying to bolster his ‘coalition’. And that was probably the real reason why Obama cancelled his one-on-one with Putin, not Edward Snowden.

  68. Phil – OK bruv; solidarity at the next kettle…

  69. Thanks for slowing me down Habby. You were right earlier, wait and see. Have to admit it is a difficult human challenge just to observe. And yes with the G-20 coming up, the UN report still to come, something may happen.

  70. Phil

    “The veracity of the story has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I am merely saying that relying on a professional liar as a source is not what I expected from craig.”

    If the story has been generally verified elsewhere, then Jones is not the source, merely one vehicle for this information.

    Perhaps Craig just linked to the first version of this true story that he came across.

    Not sure why you’re making such a big deal about this.

    You certainly do seem to have a desire to make more of it than is there.

  71. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 3:19 pm

    To inject a little laughter – or at least a snigger – into this rather heated exchange:

    Has anyone else noticed the deliciously oxymoronic name of the White House spokesman : Josh Earnest ?

  72. Phil 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:04 pm
    “Sorry mate, I don’t know you. I hope you understand that I do not take seriously a commentator on the internet who wants me to simply trust they have insider knowledge about special forces.”

    Just to be clear mark I’m not saying you don’t know. I am simply saying it would be foolish of me to believe you. I understand it is difficult for you to counter that even if your source is 100%.

    Perhaps you might be up for trying to prove yourself without in any way compromising your source. Perhaps we could inspect some of your information historically and judge that indeed you are providing impressive information that was later publicly proven true. Can you point to some examples where you have knew before what later became public? A few of those would have me hanging on your every comment.

  73. Herbie 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:18 pm
    “If the story has been generally verified elsewhere, then Jones is not the source, merely one vehicle for this information.”

    Maybe. But it isn’t verified anywhere except for a load of other nonsense sites that have no credibility.

    Anyway, if it is verified elswhere on credible sites then those would be the sites to link to.

  74. Phil

    The story is verified by both the BBC and The Daily Telegraph.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9293620/BBC-News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html

    And more particularly the story is verified in the BBC admitting to its own error in using a false photo.

    Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

  75. The simple fact is that John Kerry did indeed say “We saw rows of dead lined up in burial shrouds.” in his Aug 30 media statement.

    Did Kerry cite the specific details of the image/s of the dead that he claims “we” saw to allow us to independently verify that those images are authentic? No.

    Instead, we are left to our own devices to find those images and, of course, in our research we see the BBC photos that were later retracted when exposed as false.

    What does that say about the Whitehouse’s preparedness to present to the American public and international community with *hard evidence* of the Assad regime’s culpability in using chemical weapons? Especially when proposing a lethal strike against the regime that is likely to cost many lives and many millions of dollars?

    So much of the narrative the US and Co. use when describing this incident includes references to “overwhelming evidence” of use of chemical weapons but then falters on a similarly firm accusation implicating Assad by resorting to limp wording such as “we believe”, “most likely” etc.

    Of course, the only reasonable conclusion for this timid accusation is that there simply is no evidence at all that Assad’s forces were responsible for the alleged attack. And yet they are so eager to launch military action. Why?

  76. “If the story has been generally verified elsewhere, then Jones is not the source, merely one vehicle for this information.”

    The problem is the article doesn’t actually say anything to verify, like Kerry’s speech it just gives people the impression they said something. Reading it you would think Kerry has been caught out using fake photos, after watching a video of the speech you realise there were no photos, then you go back to the article and find they never actually said there were, they just worded it to give that impression.

    Like if you listen to Kerry’s speech you’d think America has proof the Syrian government used chemical weapons but if you examine it closely you find he never actually says that.

    It’s like when George Bush said they had never said Bin Laden and Saddam were connected. Everybody was sure they had but if you looked back it was only ever implied.

  77. Herbie 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:37 pm
    “Phil The story is verified by both the BBC and The Daily Telegraph.”

    You are conflating two stories. Yes I know the story about the misused photograph. The infowars story is about kerry referring to the photo.

    Otherwise I suspect craig would have linked to the bbc or telegraph.

  78. “Of course, the only reasonable conclusion for this timid accusation is that there simply is no evidence at all that Assad’s forces were responsible for the alleged attack. And yet they are so eager to launch military action. Why?”

    Because they found a lot of oil and gas right off the coast of Syria and Russia has a naval base there. They want to build a pipeline across Israel to link the oil terminals in Turkey to the Red sea. Next step in American total world domination.

    Lots of reasons, none of them humanitarian.

  79. “You are conflating two stories. Yes I know the story about the misused photograph. The infowars story is about kerry referring to the photo.”

    But Kerry never actually says he’s referring to that photo, there are loads of photos of dead people in Syria match his descriptions.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=syria+dead&client=firefox-a&hs=WVT&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=xwQiUrXkN9KShQeH8oDABw&ved=0CD8QsAQ&biw=1280&bih=670

  80. The fact that the UK has a marvellous electronic eavesdropping advice in Cyprus is not evidence that other countries don’t have such things.

    Besides, who would be capable of such a chemical attack within Syria’s borders apart from agents of the state?

  81. “Of course, the only reasonable conclusion for this timid accusation is that there simply is no evidence at all that Assad’s forces were responsible for the alleged attack. And yet they are so eager to launch military action. Why?”

    That’s the gas pipeline from Iran, thru Iraq and Syria and onward to the very lucrative European market.

    MOU signed 2011, around the time things kicked off in Syria.

  82. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 4:08 pm

    Long slideshow here starting with today’s Downing St protest and then those before.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23HandsOffSyria&src=hash

  83. The point ultimately, Phil, is that very obviously Kerry is talking total bollocks anyway.

    He doesn’t care about humanitarian issues, and will be quite cavalier in making up his propaganda narrative. Doesn’t even matter so much how full of holes it is. MSM will just muddy the waters.

    Surely you know that already.

    Anything he says wrt the Syrian issue that doesn’t include the gas pipeline and other material interests in the region is by definition bollocks.

  84. @Phil – It’s always struck me as a slight form of inverted snobbery to dismiss the Alex ones show and Infowars as ‘crazies’, whether consciously or otherwise. It’s also strange how some react to a credible well written link when it happens to have been taken from a site they dislike – good links/writers can come from anywhere regardless of your views on the site. Even the Guardian or BBC come up with well written,credible articles and reports every now and then, depending on the writer and subject.

    For what its worth, 90% of the reports on the Alex Jones show/infowars seem credible and are verifiable, 5% might be conjecture and hubris, and possibly 5% is sometimes off target, although usually on the right track. That’s pretty good going in my view – certainly about 90% more credible than the BBC/CNN etc. He’s also an enetertainer and business man and has passion, whether its just for entertainment or not.

    Who knows, he might well be controlled opposition but hes a damn good one if he is. AS with everything, take out the good bits, filter out the bits you’re not so sure with. I’m not defending all his faults and he himself admits that he doesnt always get it right but can you show where he has blatantly and deliberately lied though? I’d be interested to see some proof to those allegations in the interest of fair play. And no, he’s not a lizard believer-can you back up those claims too if possible?

  85. Fred 31 Aug, 2013 – 3:58 pm
    “But Kerry never actually says he’s referring to that photo”

    Exactly. Because jones unambiguously states that kerry is referring to the photo. Jones said “Kerry referenced a photograph used by the BBC”.

    I think fred explains the problem with the infowars article very well above.

    If craig had mentioned kerry and the photo adding his own conclusion fair enough. But he didn’t. He linked to a lying article from a well know joke of a liar.

    Anyway, I didn’t mean to hijack the thread but I strongly believe it is important to avoid the likes of infowars. I have banged on about it too much. In the absence of a direct question from someone I will stop.

  86. “Besides, who would be capable of such a chemical attack within Syria’s borders apart from agents of the state?”

    I don’t think there’s any doubt it was agents of the state.

    Only question is which state.

  87. About Unit 8200 see also

    http://cannonfire.blogspot.be/2013/08/gc-wiki-and-location-of-that-secret.html

    and the article Cannon posted today: The “Trojan” trick: You can’t understand what’s going on now unless you know what happened in 1986

  88. Chris Jones 31 Aug, 2013 – 4:19 pm
    “@Phil – It’s always struck me as a slight form of inverted snobbery to dismiss the Alex ones show and Infowars as ‘crazies’, whether consciously or otherwise. It’s also strange how some react to a credible well written link when it happens to have been taken from a site they dislike”

    Jones exagerrates, extrapolates, misrepresents and lies. He has even lied in the article being discussed today. Jeeesh. He seems to have become slightly more spohisticated with his money making paranoia machine but it wasn’t so long ago that he was claiming the illuminati were lizards dancing around midnight bonfires at bildeburb shindigs. It is not snobbery to not take the word of a liar.

    Well written? Who cares about the style when the very premise is a misrepresentation/untruth.

  89. “Besides, who would be capable of such a chemical attack within Syria’s borders apart from agents of the state?”

    Well, since the “rebels” have already been fingered by the UN for using sarin they can hardly be excluded.

    “UN’s Del Ponte says evidence Syria rebels ‘used sarin'”:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22424188

  90. This is quite a good overview of the Syrian situation:

    “Peak oil, climate change and pipeline geopolitics driving Syria conflict”

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/may/13/1

    When they start talking about humanitarian issues, you know they’re lying.

    And it seems that more and more people now do know they’re lying. I expect that Western leaders are quite shocked that the old two-step between themselves and msm media has now broken down as a way of controlling people’s access to information and even their perception of what leaders have been up to over the years.

    Their narrative of benign intent has been overturned, and on a global scale.

    People will have long suspected that their leaders are not benign, but the change only takes place when people can communicate and discuss with others and in finding out that there’s a whole world of people out there thinking the same thing and experts saying the same thing and facts showing the same thing, it all becomes self-reinforcing and quite liberating. That’s the game changer and I really do believe that govts do not yet fully understand the implications of that change.

    Knowing what I know about that change, were I in govt, I’d be very careful what I said and did.

    There are crimes against humanity being committed now before our very eyes. They can’t be brushed under the carpet any longer, and those who deal in them should be very careful.

    Old certainties can shift very rapidly these days.

  91. Herbie 31 Aug, 2013 – 4:13 pm
    “The point ultimately, Phil, is that very obviously Kerry is talking total bollocks anyway….Surely you know that already.”

    FFS I have said nothing to suggest that I believe anything kerry says. I am saying that I do not believe what jones says. He has even lied in the article being discussed today!

    I can see three explanations for this conversation.

    * I am fucking mental
    * I unable to explain myself
    * You lot are fucking mental

    I hope it is the middle one. Who’s gonna make the shout?

  92. On Alex Jones: Why is it in respectable discussions, like Craig Murray, anyone linking to Jones or Icke, eg, is mocked as a nutter, while linking to know well known, long-time liars such as the BBC, NYT, WaPo, LA Times, Time, Fox, etc. is considered acceptable?

    Especially now that major news is attributed to dozens of sources, unnamed because they are unauthorized to speak on record, or bits grabbed from social media that they can’t verify. For example Assad’s kid’s Facebook, where he mocked Obama. They couldn’t verify it was his page, or if it was whether he’d written it.

    Not to mention the execrable HuffPo, examiner.com, and such, which are mostly copy/pastes slightly rewritten, or unpaid writers pushing their personal agenda, often involving kittens.

    Or the changeable Wikipedia. (US Senate staffer recently caught changing Snowden’s descriptor from “dissident” to “traitor”.)
    Wikipedia itself has a changeable list of acceptable sources,
    At one time DM was not but UK Sun was, eg. Blogs are not, except when written by a mainstream published author, so Craig himself qualifies as a Wikipedia source, but not we barnacles, hanging off the bottom.

    Aside from the main stories in question, are the old MSM media not as full of peripheral BS as Alex Jones; stories on snake oil cures, “new studies suggest fillers,” hyping movies/music from studios owned by their parents, bad investment advice, etc?

  93. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:00 pm

    WRT Alex Jones or Godlike Productions; even a blind hog finds a truffle occasionally. You don’t get cooties when you visit. Like all info, it needs to be corroborated.

    Alex is a stuffed owl trying to scare crows. He’s harmless in context.

  94. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:05 pm

    I do remember the only time Craig has addressed me. I made an oblique reference to Nostradamus, and he apparently sprayed his keyboard with afternoon tea.

  95. Krishnamurky

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:06 pm

    It is no coincidence that Qatar is leading the charge, its Pars gas field (shared with Iran 35%) from which it extracts 80m tons of gas annually, has almost LIMITLESS reserves. The US CENTCOM puppet hamad with a Syria/saud pipeline to the Mediterranean could help wean off Europe from Soviet gas/oil dependency. Bandar went to Moscow to allay Russian fears over this but was rebuffed.

  96. The truth will set you free.
    Access to ‘news’ online is a game changer.
    The ordinary person like myself now laughs at the state news.

  97. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:12 pm

    “The ordinary person like myself now laughs at the state news.”

    Ain’t that the truth? I remember the Dewey Decimal system with much hatred. Going to the card file, finding the section, going to the section, finding the book..gone.

    The internet is the most incredible library. It does provide sensory overload, but if you can filter and are good at key-word searches, you can find almost anything. i love it.

  98. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:22 pm

    The new online editor for the BBC News ME page is Raffi Berg.

    BBC editor urged colleagues to downplay Israel’s siege of Gaza Amena Saleem

    08/30/2013 – 13:34

    The new Middle East online editor for BBC News has been praised by a pro-Israeli website for being “willing to listen to his critics” after he sent internal emails guiding BBC staff to write more favorably about Israel.

    Raffi Berg was promoted to head the BBC website’s Middle East desk earlier this month, having already worked as a journalist with that desk. His emails, which have been posted on a pro-Israeli site, were sent during Israel’s eight day assault on Gaza in November 2012, which killed nearly 200 Palestinians.

    /..
    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/amena-saleem/bbc-editor-urged-colleagues-downplay-israels-siege-gaza

    He joins James Purnell and James Harding who have two of the top jobs.

    Apologists for Israel take top posts at BBC
    Amena Saleem

    23 April 2013
    http://electronicintifada.net/content/apologists-israel-take-top-posts-bbc/12395

  99. Many are commenting elsewhere that the BBC is still in full propaganda mode, pushing the narrative for war, a narrative we already know is cobblers.

    The UK sovereign Parliament has come out against it. The people of the UK are against it.

    To whom does the BBC answer? It’s certainly not Parliament nor the UK people.

    We pay them, but they clearly work to other interests.

    Who is it?

    And where did they find this Dr Rola. They seem to be pushing her quite hard, which only raises further suspicions.

  100. Mary - for Truth and Justice

    31 Aug, 2013 - 5:34 pm

    O/T They have wheeled out Jane Corbin of Death on the Med infamy to cover the story of the Algerian hostages. She is on TV tonight @ BBC 2 – Terror in the Desert 21.15-22.15

    Also a piece here
    Algeria siege: “I wore a necklace bomb”.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23878183

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