The Theatre of War

by craig on October 8, 2013 9:14 pm in Uncategorized

My last post on the BBC footage of Syrian casualties – and the different versions of what the doctor said – has brought me a deluge of emails, not least from the Guardian who have been in touch with the BBC and, if the Guardian can get over its phobia at ever mentioning me at all, will doubtless produce a “Craig Murray is a Conspiracy Theorist” piece.  It would be unethical for me to reveal what the BBC said ahead of the Guardian, but I might point out that in a large amount of verbiage they completely failed to address or admit the point that they showed two different versions of what the doctor said.

Close inspection of the two different versions, by numerous commenters and for which I am grateful, reveals that there were actually two or more takes of this scene.  The easiest tell is the arm position of the man in the fluorescent jacket next to the doctor.

Actually, that is much worse than if it were overdubbing.  What this means is, that what is portrayed as a live action piece with casualties being rushed in, was actually a rehearsed piece of which several takes were done.  Rehearsed because, with the exception of the words napalm and chemical weapons, the words are precisely the same, which is not easy spontaneously especially under that kind of stress.

This raises some even weirder questions.  In a hospital where dozens of  desperately wounded casualties are at that moment being rushed in for life-saving treatment, this British doctor not only has time to talk to the BBC, but to do several takes? Is that not extremely strange?  Furthermore, nobody else in the courtyard is wearing a face mask.  If the doctor has time to do several takes with the BBC, why on earth has she not slipped off her mask to talk?  Is it for theatrical effect, to give the impression of someone just rushed from the theatre, as opposed to someone doing several takes for the BBC?

The BBC report says specifically the doctors were “overwhelmed”.  In which case how on earth could the BBC even ask them to do several takes of an interview in the middle of the crisis?  And why would they agree?

 

 

 

 

 

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78 Comments

  1. Thanks Craig. This is 2013 if you question anything you are a conspiracy theorist.

  2. It;s likely they did one interview with the doctor and made two separate news reports using the same material. In the first interview there’s a cut away around the time she mentions the chemical weapons, in the second, she’s shown in a different position. I very much doubt they did numerous takes – they probably just had the one interview and used it two different ways.

    I’m a documentary filmmaker so know how interviews can be cut. To get to the bottom of it you would have to see the full transcript of the unedited interview. But if I were a betting man, I’d say she probably mentioned both napalm and chemical weapons in the same interview and possible different people edited the two news reports and made different selections. Was one from Panorama and the other from News? That might account for the differences.

    It also doesn’t help though that she’s wearing a face mask.

  3. Which is why the very language used and the way it’s employed needs to be examined. George Orwell said it all in “Politics and the English Language”

  4. My comment at 10.13 is a response to Ex-pat at 9.54

  5. Remember the toppling of Saddam’s statue?

    Every reporter there must have known it was staged yet not one of them said so because it would have got in the way of a good story.

    If this entire interview was staged they wouldn’t say so for the same reason.

  6. The original thread on Medialens on the subject is now exceptionally long. They have even acquired a troll of their own!

    Complaint to BBC re: Panorama Aleppo school playground incendiary bomb/napalm reports
    5 October 2013 http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1380978198.html

    A new thread has started.

    BBC Doctor audio reconstructed.
    October 8, 2013
    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1381260650.html

  7. Interesting to hear that the Guardian is weighing in on this, after last week Glenn Greenwald humiliated Kirsty Wark on Newsnight.

    Any sense that they are perhaps trying to curry a bit of goodwill with after what should be a career-ending interview for Newsnight’s worst host?

  8. According to the mouthpiece on the BBC new tonight regarding value for the TV licence….the BBC are impartial!!!!

  9. “Theatre of war” is exactly the right description – a piece of deadly pantomime got up for the diversion of the great unwashed in the hope that nobody in the audience will be rude enough to point out the nudity of the actors, the thinness of the script and the paucity of the props.

  10. Freedom of the press means you area free to own one

    The corporate interests dictated by the proprietors’ imperatives, set the guidelines for editorial policies that ultimately dictate what is to be fed to the consumers. The bbc is owned by the FOC and manned by the various SIS assets. Hence it should come as no surprise it is feeding a pack of bullshit to the license payers whom have little or no choice to opt out of paying their dues.

    It is good to see that Craig has highlighted the war propaganda that has been put together as a piece of “news” and fed to the Jo Couch Potato. Further, outing the almost comical and amateur package for what it is; a pile of steaming horse shit, will invite the interested parties to pour scorn and derision on whomsoever who dares to fucking speak out in such terms.

    The tosser in the yellow jacket in the middle of war zone ferrying the victims of the “chemical attacks” in the attack of the chemical zombies, has a clean jacket amidst the world of shit, blood, vomit and piss, aimlessly hanging around in the background. Sticking out like a sore thumb, sort of a turd in the pool, but hey that is the colour of the gear our first responders ware, so the jacket will have to do. This for the benefit of the Jo Couch potato to relate to, and understand there is a medical emergency, in progress.

    Russia, Syria and the Decline of American Hegemony

    The most dramatic event of September 2013 was the high-noon stand-off near the Levantine shore, with five US destroyers pointing their Tomahawks towards Damascus and facing them – the Russian flotilla of eleven ships led by the carrier-killer Missile Cruiser Moskva and supported by Chinese warships. Apparently, two missiles were launched towards the Syrian coast, and both failed to reach their destination.

  11. Thanks Mary.

    Craig, you should read your replies before you post. Here it is again:

    BBC Doctor audio reconstructed.

    Well, despite the differing backgrounds in the video, which I thought pointed to different takes…

    I had a brief analysis done on it, result and comments which I copy fyi here:

    “Here’s the full sentence reconstructed:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0d4xgvjplwkyot/fullsentence.mp3

    It IS one sentence… you’ll notice the background noise jumps on the switchover: thats due to the effect of compression on the audio, one piece has been compressed more heavily which has raised the noise floor.
    Note that the sentence lines up perfectly despite that, which points to the fact that the section about chemical weapons was actually edited out the first time round, even though she has said it, and the napalm edited out for the later.”

    Check the reconstruction I had made: I think you may be convinced. What we have is two different edits of this: Please listen to it.

  12. O/T

    US torturing terror suspect on USS San Antonio: Lendman

    “On October 5th, US commandos, CIA and FBI agents lawlessly abducted Abu Anas al-Libi from Libya. Who is this man?” Lendman asked.

    “He was recruited in the 1980s as a Mujahedeen fighter that America used against Soviet occupiers. That’s the time Ronald Reagan called all of these fighters “the moral equivalent of our founding fathers.” Bin Laden, al-Libi and many others, with these type fighters, over the years have been used strategically as both allies and enemies,” he explained.

    “Al-Libi was used to fight Gaddafi in 2011 and as I mentioned he was used against the Soviet in Afghanistan in the 1980s and then on October 5th he was abducted lawlessly,” Lendman said.

  13. however it was done, it reeks of a staged event.

    as some others have pointed out, even more incriminating is the signal to those on the floor to begin moaning & writhing about at 3 minutes in:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23892594

    btw in all Syrian coverage at present, the MSM, including BBC, are not making a single reference to the possibility/probability that the “rebels” also have chemical weapons. rather, the hourly/daily narrative associates the Syrian Govt with the Ghouta “chem weapon” attack & BBC (& other MSM) continue to use the unverified 1400 figure:

    6 Oct: BBC: Work has begun to destroy Syria’s chemical weapons
    The work follows international outrage at a chemical weapons attack near the Syrian capital Damascus in August.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24419919

    6 Oct: BBC: Syria chemical arms removal begins
    The destruction of Syria’s chemical weapons has begun, following international outrage at an attack near Damascus in August that killed more than 1,400 people…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24421870

  14. Odd bit at 02.00 where the guy being bagged (being ventilated by bag,mask and oxygen due to heat injury of his airway and lungs) can breathe so easily he leans over to show the camera the burns on his back.

  15. Stephen Perrett

    9 Oct, 2013 - 2:29 am

    I wonder that use of the face mask allowed for easy overdubs. Also with a face mask you might expect the voice to be a little muffled but it is very clear.

  16. So they “gassed” 426 alawite children from Latakia and laid them dead side by side in Ghouta, to start a war. After that juvenile performance in the Commons, urging for war based on such faked videos and 8200 “intercepts” by his ilk at Herzliya, Rifkind should be dragged on the streets of Kensington along with Chemical Bandar and the rest of the EVIL MONSTERS involved in this deception.

  17. Craig,

    I can’t see anything sinister in this BBC reporting. Just the usual low quality production values and dramatically “enhanced”, speculative narrative designed to keep costs down and ratings high. Isn’t this normal?

    The British doctor might have worn the mask for either anonymity or dramatic effect – no big deal there. 

    In this era of declining standards of accountability, I would have thought that nobody really cares about quality news reporting anymore. Especially since the public doesn’t like hearing the awful truth anyway.

  18. Little write up here with video excerpts

    joequinn.net/2013/10/07/bbc-and-doctors-in-syria-shilling-for-western-psychopaths-in-power/

  19. “Note that the sentence lines up perfectly despite that, which points to the fact that the section about chemical weapons was actually edited out the first time round, even though she has said it, and the napalm edited out for the later.”

    So effectively the problem was that the doctor said that napalm was a chemical weapon. Given that America’s extensive use of the stuff is well known that might not be a good thing to broadcast.

  20. One creep to another yesterday in the HoC. Burt acknowledged it with a wry smile. Wonder how people like Burt feel when they have been dumped yet they have done their masters’ bidding? Foolish perhaps?

    ‘Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): First, while congratulating the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the right hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson) on his appointment, may I underline the respect for and tribute made to the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) for the brilliant way in which he conducted himself as a Minister? I hope the fact that he was held in as high regard by the Opposition as he was by those on the Government Benches did not contribute to the Prime Minister’s decision yesterday.’

    It followed Hague’s statement on Syria and Iran.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm131008/debtext/131008-0001.htm#13100813000001

  21. I noticed (and I think mentioned here) the happy coincidence of a Panorama team being in the close vicinity when the attack took place. Luck, judgement, or prior information?

    I buy the “two different edits” idea, but surely the phrase tampered with is key to the story. If she mentioned both CW and napalm, both should have stayed in. And as the entire area, together with the victims, had unequivocally suffered an incendiary attack, there is no excuse whatever for deleting “napalm” from the record.

    And what Jemand said, too.

  22. Much more detailed criticism of the Panorama piece here:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/bbc-media-fabrications-on-alleged-incendiary-bomb-attack-in-aleppo-syria/5353099

    The comments re. napalm (as opposed to, say, ordinary petrol) are interesting.

    There are several more questions here, too.

  23. I once worked for the Refugee Council. We sometimes had TV crews in. One day I was helping someone with travel documents in the day centre. A reporter with a camera asked me to repeat exactly what I had just said and done. I said that I wasn’t an actor, but they said that it would make a really good scene for a programme about the needs of refugees. The man I was helping looked a bit bemused, but he agreed. I then did exactly what I had done before. The scene appeared on the BBC 6 O’clock news. It looked totally natural. It was presented as apart of the day to day activity of the centre. You would never have known from what you saw that the scene had been staged. Since then I have always been suspicious of so called live reports. I’m not a media person and I have never appeared on TV since, but my tiny experience does add some credence to Craig’s version of what might have happened in this far more serious case.

  24. Most of the BBC’s electin coverage is staged, pre determined and pre planned, if something is said wrong, or coomes over not as it is required, the whole take is repeated.

    The BBC loves planning its events, the event at the Norman centre, during the Norwich North byelectin was ample evidence.
    The BBC even managed too persuade a philsophy Professor standing against Craig, a fellow academic and member of the respective union, Rupert Read, to agree with Craig being shut out of a debate on education, a then rector of Dundee university. Just one example, but repeated amny times.

    There is no such thing as TV as it comes, were the camera man is beaming directly into our living rooms, not yet, but I feel there is a point for it to be made, direct TV.

  25. forgive m y typos, I have a sticky ‘o’ on my keyboard.

  26. Quite hilarious stuff from Gordon Corera being put out on the BBC News Channel this morning. Look at the moving flashing coloured lines and the indication of 0101010 digital displays in the blurred background at the start of the video. BBC Graphics dept giving it full welly.

    ‘MI5 warning over threat to UK public

    There are several thousand Islamist extremists in the UK and they see the British public as a legitimate target, the new chief of MI5 has said.

    In his first public speech, Andrew Parker also said security services must be given access to the many means of technology and communication used by terrorists.

    Gordon Corera reports.’
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24455871

  27. The most important thing about the attack, who did it?, is being overshadowed by the despicable behaviour of the BBC and other MSM outlets, which has had no credibility since, thanks Fred, the Iraq war. Most of these scenarios are probably rehearsed in Pinewood, Hollywood, or the backwoods. As Fred also mentioned napalm being a weapon of choice of the Yanks, could they have known about it beforehand? Supplied it perhaps?

    Off-topic. I was on the demonstration on Saturday marking 12 months in a Supermax prison for Talha Ahsan (poor man). Here Professor Bill Bowring, former Guardian editor Victoria Brittain and Hamja Ahsan discuss the disturbing extradition of the poet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya0a-w6bIQQ&feature=youtu.be

  28. As I see it the most likely chain of events are this.

    A Syrian war plane dropped an incendiary bomb which missed it’s target and landed in a residential area.

    The Syrian opposition decided to play this up as much as possible for propaganda purposes and staged the scene before sending drivers to escort the BBC camera crews safely to the area.

    The BBC camera crew knowing full well what was going on went along with it anyway because it made good television and their job is to make good television.

    The footage arrived at the BBC where two different editors realised the doctor had gone way OTT by suggesting the Syrian government had used chemical weapons and sanitised the video in different ways.

  29. This rather-too specific article strongly suggests that the noble freedom fighters aren’t averse to burning people either….

    http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2013/09/features/makers-of-war

    I’m sure all their strikes are surgical, though, and no hard-working families ™ get hurt.

  30. The Wikispooks Dr Rola page has bee re-jigged with lots of new information too.

    It does not major on the video fakery, rather it concentrates on Dr Rola’s connections to the SNO and FSA and the fact that she was shilling for military action under medical/charitable/ altruistic volunteer credentials, all of which the BBC clearly understood but deliberately witheld from the viewer.

    Her father is Dr Mousa al-Kurdi, a senior SNO member – who actually taught Assad at university; the Dep leader of the FSA is Col Malik al-Kurdi; her on-site colleague is Dr Salayha Ahsan, a former Captain in the British Army Medical Corps. There is plenty other clear corroborating evidence of her support for the rebellion too.

    All of it was hidden by the BBC who gave the impression she is just an ordinary Doctor with selfless humanitarian concerns. It played to the western interventionist agenda perfectly and stinks to high heaven of SIS collusion – but that of course is our wonderful BBC.

  31. “The BBC report says specifically the doctors were “overwhelmed”. In which case how on earth could the BBC even ask them to do several takes of an interview in the middle of the crisis? ”

    It’s the way they work. Front line film crews seem to believe that events happen purely for them to report, they’ll turn up somewhere and try and take over. Like Janet I’ve had personal experience of this.

    It’ll be interesting to see what the BBC say, if anything.

  32. ‘forgive m y typos, I have a sticky ‘o’ on my keyboard.’

    That’ll teach you not to eat digestive biscuits over your keyboard Nevermind!

  33. Wikileaks, that is a sound observation and investigation regarding Dr Rola Hassan.

    As you observe it almost certainly was not a school as these early reports make no mention of a school and that would have been the first cry as they both wear their colours on their sleeves. Casualty figures are mainly men, though children too. Which brings me to the headmaster in the second video, a man who wished to remain anonymous. I should think he did! More shame on the BBC!

    http://www.therevoltingsyrian.com/post/59495635832/assads-forces-launch-incendiary-an-attack
    https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/339224979519180

  34. Sorry Wikispooks (not Wikileaks) and Dr Rola Hallam (not Hassan). Not off to a good start.

  35. OT: Re hardworking families ™ …

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2012/12/tories-shameful-new-ad-campaign-against-scroungers

    Frame 2 of the ad (embedded in NS page): check the hardworking family ™ used to illustrate hardworking families ™ : Then see:

    http://hardworkingtoryfamily.tumblr.com/

    Positively Stakhanovite, them.

  36. Can you see the ConDems doing the same?

    Italy to hold state funeral for shipwreck migrants

    Jose Manuel Barroso and Enrico Letta were heckled as they arrived on the island of Lampedusa

    Migrant tragedy
    EU dilemma
    Risky journey
    European tragedy
    In pictures

    Italy is to hold a state funeral for the hundreds of migrants who died after their boat capsized close to the island of Lampedusa last Thursday.

    Prime Minister Enrico Letta made the announcement during a visit to the island with European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso.

    Mr Barroso pledged 30m euros ($40m) of EU funds to help refugees in Italy.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24456058

    ~~

    No but they and the NuLabour lot are happy to have spent over £half a billion on the failed e-borders scheme.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24453677

  37. The Medialens editors -

    Structural Inclinations – The Leaning Tower of Propaganda: Chemical Weapons Attacks In Ghouta, Syria

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/alerts-2013/744-structural-inclinations-the-chemical-weapons-attacks-in-ghouta-syria.html

  38. “In a hospital where dozens of desperately wounded casualties are at that moment being rushed in for life-saving treatment”

    Are they though…? It’s more likely that this whole story was fabricated. No casualties, no hospital, no doctors necessary. Wag the dog and all that… But I am a conspiracy theorist.

  39. Opening sentence of Wikileaks page on Dr Rola:-

    “Her testimony was just as compelling and emotional as the lies of “Nurse Nayirah” to the US congress in the run up to the 1990-91 Gulf war. ”

    So no hint of bias there at all.

    The page also refers to the footage in the two clips being identical which we now know not to be true.

  40. “The page also refers to the footage in the two clips being identical which we now know not to be true.”

    The sound track was, up until the point it was edited.

  41. David McCann

    9 Oct, 2013 - 3:27 pm

    For many years now, we in Scotland have been blitzed with anti independence propoganda by a biased media, especially BBC Scotland. However, lately ex BBC journalist Derek Bateman of 25 years standing has started a blog, which lifts the lid on the goings on at Pacific Quay, and boy- they dont like it.
    He has two blogs- 1 and 2, one of which is very tongue in cheek. The other tells it as it is.
    Well worth a wee look.
    http://drderekbateman.wordpress.com/

  42. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    9 Oct, 2013 - 4:32 pm

  43. There are people in society who are still prepared to excuse the excesses of the priviledged. They are trying hard to get this perv off the charge. Just read the last paragraph and make sure you have a sick bag ready.

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/friend_of_former_bbc_presenter_michael_souter_never_saw_him_act_in_sexually_inappropriate_way_1_2864424

  44. “For many years now, we in Scotland have been blitzed with anti independence propoganda by a biased media, especially BBC Scotland. However, lately ex BBC journalist Derek Bateman of 25 years standing has started a blog, which lifts the lid on the goings on at Pacific Quay, and boy- they dont like it.”

    What on earth were the BBC thinking of employing a rabid fanatical Nationalist as a presenter? From what I read on his blog there isn’t a cat in hell’s chance of him being unbiased and impartial on the issue.

    No wonder they call it Newsnat Scotland.

  45. And true to form, a British Nationalist appears.

  46. “And true to form, a British Nationalist appears.”

    My post was about the BBC.

    Your post was about me.

    Just how stupid can you be not to see that by constantly attacking the poster not the subject you are demonstrating what a nasty little shit you really are.

  47. Your post wasn’t about the BBC, it attacked the blogger that criticised your BBC.

    If it quacks like a duck………

    You’re too boring and predictable, Fred. I’m away to watch paint dry.

  48. “Your post wasn’t about the BBC, it attacked the blogger that criticised your BBC.”

    Bullshit. A blatant lie.

    We have been having a debate here about a BBC documentary to which you have contributed nothing. You just stick your oar in to snipe at anyone who doesn’t share your bigoted views. Like I said a despicable nasty little shit, Salmond’s little Blackshrt. You confirm everything I have said about Nationalists and Nationalism. History has shown them to be thugs and bullies and it doesn’t seem the SNP can claim to be any dfferent.

    Now crawl back into the hole you crawled out of, probably Salmond’s arsehole, you slimy little turd.

  49. Well Fred what a nasty dirty mind you have. Typical british nationalist.

  50. So the new head of MI5 equates exposing the naughty old secret state with aiding and abetting terrorists. TPTB really are rattled if they’re resorting to that old chestnut.

    The state spies on us, online. It probably facial maps through your laptop’s webcam; it’ll be tracking the purchases you make and the websites you visit. Anything you post on Twitter and Facebook (and here?) will be logged. It’s all about assessing threat level and your general awareness. Those who think the MSM is about as nourishing as aspartame will be of especial interest.

    Snowden showed us all that. And to think the Drone King got the Nobel Peace Prize. In this po-mo age, Snowden should put out a single, and we could download it to Number One. I suggest Nick Cave help him with the lyrics.

    If they’re “catching” us online, we can at least thumb our noses right back at them with the same technology.

  51. There are trolls and name-callers on this blog whose only aim is to disrupt. I’m not talking differences of opinions here, I mean those whose goal is to offend some, demoralise others, and basically put people off visiting here to engage or comment.

    You want to engage? Fine. Testy? I can handle that.

    But just plain offensive? No.

    These people must be black-listed. They’re here to kill the conversation.

  52. Every political aware person knows that the bloody regime change in Damascus is an Israeli Project.

    Last month, Professor Jean Bricmont (University of Louvain in Belgium) authored an article, titled ‘The People Against the 800 Pound Gorilla’ claiming that Israel is pushing Washington to attack Syria.

    “An American friend who knows Washington well told us recently that ‘everybody’ there knows that, as far as the drive to war with Syria is concerned, it’s Israel that directs US policy. Why then, we replied, don’t opponents of war say it loud, since, if the American public knew that, support for the war would collapse. Of course, we knew the answer to that question. They’re affraid to say all they know, because if you blame the pro-Israel lobby, you are branded an antisemite in the media and your career is destroyed,” wrote Jean Bricmont and Diana Johnstone.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/10/09/belgian-scholar-no-more-wars-for-israel/

  53. “Well Fred what a nasty dirty mind you have. Typical british nationalist.”

    Somebody has to stand up to the Nazi thugs and bullies shit for brains, look what happened in Germany when they didn’t.

  54. Gibsons law already, Fred. :-)

  55. Just how stupid can you be not to see that by constantly attacking the poster not the subject you are demonstrating what a nasty little shit you really are. (Fred)

    Fred never attacks posters, lol.

  56. Juteman – I invoke Hanlon’s Law.

  57. thanks for that link Rehmat, it feels like the causes are now flagrating and pen diplomatic efforts replaced by shady agreements and actions.

    Endgame fear and loathing, no progress in Gaza, the Golan errupting weekly, Syria compromised and a yearning for the waters of the Litani, all this makes actins almst inevitable.

    Those warships have not moved away, they are all still in the eastern Med.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/possible-naval-showdown-u-s-6th-fleet-vs-russian-mediterranean-task-force

    http://www.navytimes.com/article/20130912/NEWS08/309120014/Syria-status-Barry-s-indefinite-extension-keeps-4-destroyers-eastern-Med

  58. Rehmat, at 3:08am. The destruction of Syria is a combined Saudi/UAE/Israeli project. Of course, the more specific critique of tail-wagging-dog (to mix metaphors) and de facto muzzling of this issue in the public discourse of the USA, vis a vis Israel and the USA, is accurate.

  59. “Somebody has to stand up to the Nazi thugs and bullies shit for brains, look what happened in Germany when they didn’t.”

    Once again Fred directly links the democratic, peaceful independence movement for Scotland with the NSDAP and other fascist elements. Lets remind ourselves of the Nazis and their history. Up to 6 million Jews were massacred in the Holocaust. The disabled and political opponents were also slaughtered by the Nazis. It is thought that the Second World War was responsible for the deaths of around 50-60 million people. The Soviet Union is thought to have lost well over 20 million people alone (it may be closer to 30 million). Substantial parts of the Polish population were massacred. The main element in the independence movement in Scotland, the SNP, have existed for nearly 80 years. In this time they have been engaged in purely democratic, constitutional, electoral politics. The idea that the independence movement for Scottish independence is any way fascist, or like the Nazis, is a complete distortion of the truth, and brings shame on those who make it. It is a disgraceful smear, and dishonours the memory of generations of decent people, who have argued for Scottish self government in a civilised and peaceful manner.

  60. Well said muttley.

  61. Jon Snow on Syria, quoting D Miliband now embedded in New York collecting the shekels.

    Snowmail – Jon Snow on Syria
    Posted by The Editors on October 10, 2013, 6:40 pm

    Snow:

    “Syria facing ‘winter of hell’, says David Miliband

    “Spared military intervention for agreeing to decommission his chemical weapons, Syria’s President Assad appears to feel he can use every weapon in the book to destroy his own people. It is harshly symbolised by his initial gassing of Moadamyeh followed by the bombing of the town’s water supply and finally by the denial of all food into the town. David Miliband now heads the International Rescue Committee, one of the key aid agencies dealing with the crisis, and in an exclusive interview tonight he warns of the terrible consequences of winter and of the international community’s failure to come forward with aid.

    “Asked about the recent Daily Mail coverage, which described his father Ralph as “the man who hated Britain”, the former foreign secretary said the incident was “hateful” and described his father as a very loving man. But he added that the public can discern between what was written and the truth.”

    If Snow has seen any evidence that Assad ordered, gas attacks in Damascus, he should make it public.

    (http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1381426843.html)

    Thursday 10 October 2013 Syria , World

    David Miliband: Syria is facing a ‘winter of hell’ – video

    David Miliband warns the “humanitarian catastrophe” being inflicted on Syrian people risks being put on the “back burner” because of diplomatic breakthroughs over Bashar al-Assad’s chemical weapons.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/david-miliband-syria-war-crisis-refugees-winter-video

  62. Welcome to the world of evil conspiracy theorists Craig – now that you have questioned and pointed out some obvious misnomers in the defunct dinosaur mainstream media, you will be officially, as if by magic, become an overnight racist, ‘anti semite’, homophobic, ‘climate change denying’, anti children, wife beating, flower bed destroying,kitten drowning monster..

    This video was a farce from the start – it is Michael Jackson’s thriller for Zionist news consumption. The acting is worse than a £500 D movie

  63. “Once again Fred directly links the democratic, peaceful independence movement for Scotland with the NSDAP and other fascist elements.”

    Because they behave like them.

    My point was valid. If an employee of BBC Scotland had a blog such as that so blatantly pro Unionism the Nationalists would be up in arms and screaming for his resignation.

    But for stating the obvious all I get is personal abuse from Juteman, he doesn’t address the issue, all he pipes in with is name calling as usual.

    Those are Blackshirt tactics.

    You can’t pretend to not be like them when you act like them.

  64. You’re so funny Fred. Really. :-)
    Why can’t you just accept your British Nationalism, instead of projecting your own aggressive views onto others?
    Self denial can’t be doing much good for your health.

  65. “Why can’t you just accept your British Nationalism”

    Why don’t you just accept that you are a shit for brained moron who hasn’t got a clue.

    I have stated many times that I am not a Nationalist and that I am opposed to Nationalism and all other racist doctrines in any form.

    So if you have anything to say on the issues say them, if you continue to tell lies about me you will be flamed.

    Got that yet retard?

  66. What racist doctrines, Fred?
    Have you even looked at the various folk that or on the Yes side? There are MSP’s of all colours, creeds and nationalities backing Yes.

    Were you once molested by a big hairy Highlander, Fred?
    It really puzzles me where your hatred of Scottish independence comes from, if not a sense of British superiority.

  67. “It really puzzles me where your hatred of Scottish independence comes from, if not a sense of British superiority.”

    Once again you turn the thread to lies about me shit for brains.

    I have no hatred of independence.

    It’s rabid fanatical racist Nationalist knuckle draggers like you I’m opposed to.

  68. So you support Scottish independence?

  69. “So you support Scottish independence?”

    Mind your own business.

    Would you like to talk about the issues and not about me?

    Or don’t you have any valid points? Is all you’ve got lies and character assassinations? Do you intend to continue proving everything I’ve said about Nationalist Blackshirts true?

  70. I simply womder why you lose the plot anytime someone mentions Scottish independence. It’s as if you don’t want the subject discussed on this forum.
    Anyway, i’ll leave you to your duty for the night.

  71. Fred,
    “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
    Socrates

  72. David McCann

    I’ve never yet seen Juteman even attempt debate, he just fires right in with the slander right from the start.

  73. “I simply womder why you lose the plot anytime someone mentions Scottish independence.”

    I think everyone else has caught on by now but you seem to be a bit slow.

    Make it personal and you get flamed, stick to the issues and you don’t.

    That’s simple enough even a retard like you to understand.

  74. So asking you a question is making it personal?

    Ok, I wont ask you a question.

    What if a mythical fairy at the bottom of my garden lost the plot every time Scottish independence was mentioned, and started raving, dribbling and foaming at the mouth. I wonder what happened to that poor fairy to cause such mental distress. Anybody have any thoughts?

  75. “So asking you a question is making it personal?”

    The purpose of my first post is clear. To point out that if the BBC employ someone so obviously fanatical Nationalist as reporter and presenter then that is evidence they do not have a pro Unionist bias.

    What was the purpose of your first post in this thread then? Was your post about the BBC, Derek Bateman or was it about me?

    You didn’t ask a question you stated I was a Nationalist, which is a damned lie as you well know. No attempt at debate right in with the libels and slander. Typical Blackshirt tactics. Typical Nationalist thug.

  76. My first post was to expose your usual tactics.
    Any time someone posts a comment or a link concerning Scottish independence, your response is to attack anyone that dares criticise your beloved Britain, and accuse folk of being rabid Blackshirts. A perfect example of projection.
    You may not be a British Nationalist, but do a brilliant job at impersonating one.

  77. @ Chris Jones – Spot on mate. Interesting how wayward this comments thread has become. Focus people, we’re talking about TV Fakery, and once you see it, you can’t un-see it. It’s everywhere in the MSM…

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