A Key Test for International Law

by craig on April 21, 2014 12:38 pm in Uncategorized

The ethnic cleansing by the British of an entire small population and culture – the Chagos Islanders – is probably the most despicable act by Britain of my lifetime.  As if the Iraq War and Extraordinary Rendition were not enough, New Labour’s moral dereliction – or more properly evil – was confirmed by the breathtaking cynicism of David Miliband’s proclamation of a Marine Protected Zone around the islands, designed to protect the American base on Diego Garcia and make it impossible for the Chagos Islanders to return to their living as native fishermen, and keep away any eyes that might see the secret prison inmates.

Extraordinarily and to their eternal shame, a number of prominent British environmentalists and conservationists lent their support to the Diego Garcia marine protected zone.  These purblind fools, obsessed with a single cause and blind to wider policy and justice, are in the same category as the ridiculous “feminists” who were co-opted by the neo-conservatives agents (be they propaganda media or secret service or both) to frustrate the aims of Julian Assange and Tommy Sheridan.

In truth, if colonial conquest and force majeure are legitimate grounds of sovereignty, and if extermination of a population can wipe out the legal right to self-determination, then in international law Britain has the right to Diego Garcia and to give it as tribute to their US overlords.  But if international law has any relationship of any kind to principles of justice, then Britain should not be permitted to reap the dubious benefit of genocide.  What international law actually is in the neo-conservative era is the real question before the UN tribunal now looking at the Diego Garcia question.

The UK is represented by Sir Michael Wood.  He is the man who overruled my objection inside the FCO to the use of “intelligence” gained from torture, and argued that British cooperation with extraordinary rendition was legal.

If anybody in Scotland can read through this and read through the links, and does not want to take the chance to leave the stinking cesspit of international shame that is the United Kingdom, they are severely deficient in moral sense.

 

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126 Comments

  1. It wasn’t new labour, Craig, it was “old labour”, followed by “wet” tories. And it was kept very quiet. I know a bit about this because I was shocked that Mr Wilson could agree to such a thing, and that Spanish civil war veteran Mr Heath would follow it through. But they did. And the truth was kept away from the British Public for many years. The hand-over must also have been somehow kept out of the UN somehow. Perhaps someone will know how…

  2. As Peter H Sand said in the Journal of Environmental Law:

    The Diego Garcia lagoon (which is part of Britain’s Ramsar Convention site No 1077/2UK001) must be the world’s only internationally registered nature reserve that also serves as habitat to nuclear submarines, ordnance supply vessels [and a host of other seriously polluting activities

    Over 1.5 million gallons of aviation fuel spilled in documented ‘accidents’ between 1984 and 1998 + massive increase in alien plant species + radiation leakages + sonar decimating marine species – the list is a truly appalling one – but “Hushhhh were really trying to conserve and protect the environment – Honest” say our pigmy puppet politicos.

    “Hypocrisy” AND “evil Machiavellian calculation” together do not come close to describing what the British government – of BOTH parties has done to the Chagossians

    Wikispooks article here

  3. I applaud your optimism that a new Jock government would be much different from a UK government. I have a sneaking suspicion that modern day John Reids, George Robertsons and Jim Murphys would still ply their trade with impunity. Bit depressing, really.

  4. I signed a petition for the conservation zone but was suspicious about it so added the comment “on condition that it is not used as an excuse to continue to refuse the Chagos Islanders’ right of return or right to sustainable fishing”. Probably shouldn’t have signed it at all though as likely most comments will never have been read.

  5. I am sympathetic to most of this article, but I still don’t see how separatism will help matters. For the reasons that DtP suggests, it may not even work for the people of a separate Scotland. It certainly won’t do the rest of us any good. Somehow or other we have to correct the moral cesspit that Westminster has become (has been for some time, actually, since the Diego Garcia obscenity goes back decades). This will be difficult. Things are so bad that not only do decent people not want to get into politics, but the corrupt and the nasty act as gatekeepers to the castle anyway. We are only allowed to choose (select with our votes) between people who have already been put up for us by the party machines. What kind of people are they likely to be? The system has become self-perpetuating.

  6. Good point DtP!

    There seem to be some high hopes here concerning the future of an independent Scotland, not at all grounded in reality.

    It is as if all the unpleasantness, corruption, greed and malice of mankind will disappear the moment Scotland votes ‘Yes’.

    And Craig accuses the ‘No’ campaign of coming up with a lot of crap.

  7. DtP

    But a Yes vote would be very specifically a rejection of George Robertson, John Reid and Jim Murphy.

    I must say, I find the “An independent Scotland would be no use anyway because all states are bound to become neo-conservative” argument both nihilistic and based on an ignorance of Scottish culture. If you take the view that any attempt to make things better is doomed to failure, I can’t see why you bother to continue living.

  8. You do seem to have some pretty outlandish hopes, Craig.

    “based on an ignorance of Scottish culture.”

    LOL!

    It really is all about race, nationality, culture, isn’t it? Scots are intrinsically better people, despite the large proportions of Scots involved in the British establishment you so despise, aren’t they?

    “If you take the view that any attempt to make things better is doomed to failure, I can’t see why you bother to continue living.”

    Reality check:

    Scots before independence – ruled by self-serving EU controlled troughers.
    Scots after independence – ruled by self-serving EU controlled troughers.

    Sorry :-(

    Footnote
    Didn’t pro-Putin, anti-Iraq, Syria, and Libya wars Nigel Farage go up to Scotland and offer a non-Neocon, non EU vision? And what was the reaction?

  9. A petition came through at the time. Can’t remember whether it was from Avaaz or 38 Degrees. Anyway I returned it unsigned and told them what to do with it.

    How the bastards did it.

    Marine nature reserve and cable leak – In April 2010, the British Government—specifically, the British diplomat Colin Roberts, acting on the instructions of David Miliband—established a marine nature reserve around the Chagos Islands known as the Chagos Protected Area. The designation proved controversial as the decision was announced during a period when the UK Parliament was in recess.

    On December 1, 2010, a leaked US Embassy London diplomatic cable dating back to 2009 exposed British and US calculations in creating the marine nature reserve. The cable relays exchanges between US Political Counselor Richard Mills and British Director of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Colin Roberts, in which Roberts “asserted that establishing a marine park would, in effect, put paid to resettlement claims of the archipelago’s former residents.” Richard Mills concludes:

    Establishing a marine reserve might, indeed, as the FCO’s Roberts stated, be the most effective long-term way to prevent any of the Chagos Islands’ former inhabitants or their descendants from resettling in the [British Indian Ocean Territory].

    The cable (reference ID “09LONDON1156″) was classified as confidential and “no foreigners”, and leaked as part of the Cablegate cache.

    Armed with the Wikileaks revelations, the Chagossians launched an appeal, seeking a judgement that the reserve was unlawfully aimed at preventing them returning home. Although Bradley Manning had been arrested nearly three years previously, the UK government felt unable to confirm to the court that the leaked documents were genuine. It was made clear to the court that the government’s inability to confirm was for two reasons: firstly, to protect itself from the charge that it created the reserve to prevent the islanders from ever returning home and, secondly, out of a purported fear (Bradley Manning had been looking at 22 charges related to leaking classified government documents for more than two years by now) that the US government might get angry if the cables were acknowledged as genuine. Despite the contents of his cable being known—”a marine park would, in effect, put paid to resettlement claims of the archipelago’s former residents”—Roberts denied, when questioned in court, that there was an “ulterior motive” behind the reserve’s establishment. Lord Justice Richards and Mr Justice Mitting then refused to accept the documents as evidence, declaring that to do so would breach diplomatic privilege. The Guardian described their decision as having “far-reaching consequences” and “a severe setback for the use of material obtained from leaks or whistleblowers.” In June 2013, the pair of judges turned down the appeal brought by the Chagossians, ruling that everything was fine because the reserve was compatible with EU law.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagossians

    I expect Roberts got a gong or a promotion and although the islanders have no home, Miliband is sitting pretty in New York on his large screw from the IRC said to be £300k pa.

  10. I did miss the obvious one:

    No true Scot would become a neo-Conservative!

  11. I do hope you’re right Craig. I certainly don’t think it’s inevitable that neo-conservatism is the only game in town but I think the main political parties – Nats too – just produce these cloned mekons who form circle jerks to screw the voter. The saving grace is that as London drifts off to exclude itself from the rest of the UK by its supine relationship with money laundering that the Scots can escape. Brown’s speech tomorrow has been telegraphed and, crikey, he’s not improved at all – still tribal more than philosophical.

  12. It was certainly very impressive the way those SNP folk sent Donald Trump packing.

  13. Thank you. Wikispooks. That pretty comprehensively answers my question. I like the “Hypocrisy Meter”.

  14. Off topic completely, but somebody told me that Aaronvitch has admitted to putting fake reviews of Voodoo Histories on Amazon, or encouraging others to do so. But I can’t find anything on google. Any pointers?

  15. It is difficult to know what the Independent Scotland will be like but I can’t see how it can be any worse than the present UK.

    I see some hope in the launch of the new party, NOTA, None Of The Above.

    http://notavote.co.uk/

    I have certainly thought for a long time that spoiling the ballot is the only choice we have to show that the status quo is not acceptable. I hope this party is successful.

  16. Craig, who are these “prominent British environmentalists and conservationists” specifically? Can you point us to a convenient list?

    The broad “Green” agenda in this country encompasses a great variety of people, most of them shockingly naive, many of them pursuing very narrow and short-sighted goals having nothing to do with the maintenance of this planet as an inhabitable world, some of them plain hypocrites, a few of them very sinister.

    There was an excellent article in Lobster magazine a few years ago on the extreme right-wing roots of the original Ecology Party, and its links to James Goldsmith, John Aspinall, and other unpleasant millionaires with “carbon footprints” the size of Wales. Nowadays the Greens are very much of the liberal left, with an inordinate faith in the ability of the State to correctly govern all aspects of life. But the main problem is a blurring of the distinction between the “ecology” agenda and the “conservation” agenda, two entirely different things.

    Ecology is about keeping the Earth inhabitable- the awareness that humans could become an “endangered species” due to climate change, sterility due to de-masculinising chemical pollution, etc. Ecological policies would require very firm control of the capitalist economy, worldwide, as a minimum, but preferably a complete economic restructuring.

    Conservation, on the other hand, amounts merely to a vague notion of “keeping things as they are”. I’ve never heard of a conservationist demolishing his own house so the land can revert to nature. In rural Cornwall where I live, the “conservation” theme is deployed by wealthy Nimbies in opposition to wind farms and solar energy “farms” that would “spoil the view” from their large houses. These renewable energy sources are essential to the Ecology agenda. Of course it never occurs to the Nimbies that their own big houses might “spoil the view” from someone else’s house who has been there centuries before them! The same people oppose affordable housing in rural areas, and any new local sources of employment.

    The Greens really need to clearly distance themselves from the conservationist agenda, but unfortunately the present leadership won’t do that because they know that many of their voters are people like somebody I know who votes for them for vaguely sentimental reasons but admits she’d never vote for them if there was a chance of them getting into power (because her family has two cars!)

  17. Aa on the previous thread Craig. Today’s Times.

  18. Hitchens seems to think Agent Cameron is operating a double bluff on the Scottish referendum vote?????

    In the Mail on Sunday Hitchens writes:

    Have we yet even begun to realise what a huge change may overtake us in September if Scotland votes for independence and Britain ceases to exist?

    Silly threats about the pound, the economy and defence simply don’t work. I hope they wouldn’t work on us either. They actually increase the pro-independence vote. So why do we keep making them?

    I for one am sure that the High Command of the Tory Party actively wants Scotland to leave. It is the only way the Conservatives who like office above all things will ever get a majority at Westminster again. You don’t think they are that cynical? Why ever not?

    ~~~~
    The link is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2608679/PETER-HITCHENS-Who-using-spies-lies-grab-power-Kiev-We-are.html

  19. “Aaronvitch has admitted to putting fake reviews of Voodoo Histories on Amazon, or encouraging others to do so. But I can’t find anything on google. Any pointers?”

    Just had a quick look at the first few 5-star reviews of Voodoo Histories. There’s a distinct pattern of reviewers who have hardly reviewed any other books on Amazon and who mainly use Amazon for buying CDs and furniture. “Mr Straves” for example, the top 5-star reviewer, says he’s “read quite a bit on conspiracy theories”,but curiously his 8 pages of Amazon reviews don’t include anything on this topic. His main intellectual interests seem to be betting, drug-taking, and the identification of psychopaths!

  20. Can anyone fish the Times article Mary refers to from behind the paywall. Presumably he was forced into the admission?

  21. Nasir Ali 2:34 pm

    “I see some hope in the launch of the new party, NOTA, None Of The Above.”

    I thought I’d have some fun trying to glean the political leanings of this supposedly non-aligned party. No surprises really, which makes me wonder, why none of the above when you have so many to choose from?

    ____________________________________

    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Alliance for Workers’ Liberty (stands as Socialist Unity in elections)
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Democratic Labour Party (part of TUSC).
    Independent Working Class Association
    International Socialist League
    Left Unity
    New Communist Party
    Peace and Progress Party
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party (England and Wales) (part of TUSC. Also stands as Socialist Alternative in elections.)
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Socialist Party of Great Britain (Reconstituted) (aka Socialist Studies)
    Socialist Peoples Party
    Socialist Resistance
    Socialist Workers Party (part of TUSC).
    Spartacist League
    United Socialist Party
    Workers Power
    Workers’ Revolutionary Party.

    _________________________________

    To be fair, if you could get all of those to unite together then you might scratch one per cent of the vote.

  22. Craig’s blog is timely and I agree with it except for two points. First, it does a disservice to the language of political and moral debate to describe the illegal expulsion of all Chagossians from their homeland as “extermination” and an example of “genocide”. They were expelled, not killed. God did not exterminate Adam and Eve. Second, I see no compelling reason other than topicality to suggest that the Chagossian saga provides support for voting “yes” in the Scottish referendum.

    There is, however, one Scottish and political point that deserves note. In 2000 three High Court judges were unanimous in accepting that the Chagossians had the right of abode in their homeland – though NOT that they had the legal right to demand that the UK government facilitate and fund any resettlement programme. Nevertheless, Robin Cook, as the Foreign Secretary and representing a Scottish constituency decided not just not to appeal that judgement; he also agreed for moral and political reasons to set up a feasibility study of resettlement.

    That the whole process of moving towards belated justice for the Chagossians was overturned in 2004 was only due to Cook being removed and replaced by the brown-nosing Jack Straw; and then to collusion by FCO and other UK officials and ministers to find a way round the High Court’s unappealed decision by the further use of profoundly colonial legislation, Orders in Council as applied to ” a ceded territory”. But Cook’s principled support for justice for the Chagossians meant that there was a brief period when HMG showed sanity and humanity.

    Mary gives an excellent summary of the recent history and showed excellent judgement in seeing how flawed the Avaaz petition was. She is also right that Colin Roberts was rewarded with promotion (though not yet a gong) – he will shortly move to Stanley to take up his appointment as Governor of the Falkland Islands: a breathtaking example of cynical irony – to become the protector of the rights of (other, white “kith and kin”) British citizens in an archipelago thousands of miles from the UK.

    I have no doubt, though he has not yet been convicted in court as a perjurer, that as an intelligent and able diplomat, Colin Roberts nevertheless was excessively protective of his and his employer’s reputations and therefore deliberately lied when asked under oath at the Tribunal about some of the words he had used at the meeting he had about the proposed Chagos MPA with members of the US Embassy. No doubt if he has any real regard for his reputation he will sue me – and others – for libelling him. So, we can fairly assume, as long as he does not, that he lacks the courage of his convictions. No doubt it is better to be thought a liar than to take the risk of trying to prove that he is not.

    My defence is cast-iron: I have the perfectly honest belief that what was printed in the Guardian and the Daily Telegraph was an accurate copy of a genuine US diplomatic cable. That documentary evidence is far stronger basis for my rational belief than are Colin Roberts’words under oath, given the FCO’s failure (so Colin Roberts claimed) to take any countervailing record of the meeting. Who would a UK jury trust more to tell the truth? A UK serving diplomat whose career is on the line? Or, a number of US officials who are reporting immediately after the event to the State Department on a meeting with a senior FCO official and have taken the trouble at a crucial point – the use of the phrase “Man Fridays” – to quote Colin Roberts verbatim?

  23. Mary 2:50 pm

    Hitchens makes a fair point. Scottish independence would result in a massive reduction of UK benefits claimants and therefore Labour Party votes.

  24. LOL, Anon… Where to align, left or right?

    Perhaps there needs to be a new spectrum of alignment based on how big their lies…

    Lab, Lib, Con would certainly ALL be extremists on such a continuum.

  25. Iain, thanks. My understanding is that quite a lot of Chagossians died after their deportation, drifting into hopelessness and alcoholism – in short the same way the Americans killed the majority of the native americans, herding them into camps and letting disease, alcohol and the loss of meaning and identity do the work. I would argue you can commit the genocide without actively killing the people, just causing them to die.

  26. Craig’s excellent op-ed now added to Wikispooks’ brilliant article:
    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Falklands_and_Chagos_-_A_Tale_of_Two_Islands#A_Key_Test_for_International_Law.

  27. The co-editor of Dissident Voice drew comparison with Cameron’s attitude to the people in the Malvinas and the British treatment of the Chagos Islanders. This was in 2012. Is the ECHR still debating the situation as he says?

    Falklands/Malvinas
    Who respects self-determination, and who opposes colonialism?
    by Kim Petersen / June 18th, 2012
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/06/falklandsmalvinas/

  28. Some very interesting posts. Globalist EU advocate, English born Craig Murray is a mass of contradictions with his support of Scottish Independence, one of a few subjects I agree with him about – but for reasons of democracy rather than centralised dictatorship. The issue of the Chagos Islands will of course disappear without trace – a bit like that plane diversion.

    I myself am a major advocate of having a sustainable planet – with having around about the same levels of population we have now – without all the pollution and wars and horror. In fact I would be a major supporter of windmills and solar power, except for the fact that they don’t work. They are energy sinks….This young lady explains it much better than me.

    “Ten Reasons Intermittent Renewables (Wind and Solar PV) are a Problem”

    http://ourfiniteworld.com/2014/01/21/ten-reasons-intermittent-renewables-wind-and-solar-pv-are-a-problem/

    Tony

  29. I see the stooge who heads the WWF is in favour of the MPA.

    ‘David Nussbaum, the chief executive of WWF-UK, said the organisation still supported the creation of the MPA, and, were the Chagossians to return, the terms of the MPA would have to be revised to allow them access to fish for food and to earn a livelihood.

    Nussbaum said WWF-UK was keeping a close eye on the matter in light of the “concerning elements” mentioned in the WikiLeaks cable: “If we were to find that our position was being misrepresented as supporting the UK’s claim or supporting a view that the Chagossians should not be allowed back, we would have to review the situation again.”

    However, the environmentalists – like the islanders and the British, Mauritian and American governments – are not the only ones with an interest in what goes on in the Chagos Islands.

    The legal charity Reprieve has profound concerns over the use of the base on Diego Garcia in the rendition of those accused of terrorism.’
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/may/19/chagos-islands-resettlement-campaign

    “Miss Jones. Put Mr Nussbaum’s name down on that list for knighthoods please.”

    ~~~

    Some photos of this beautiful paradise.
    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?s=bb1e3181db8e8a1af0c5dda8b18a65d8&p=34380046&postcount=164

    Compare and contrast with
    http://dxing.at-communication.com/upload/Image/Diego-Garcia-Island_Chagos-Islands_VQ9HF_DX-News.jpg

    and

    http://beforeitsnews.com/mediadrop/uploads/2014/12/a0d95032c835a1691ae611c035a2f04ee846df72.jpg

  30. Craig

    I agree that some Chagossians died from illness and poverty when exiled to Mauritius and the Seychelles (others who know more may be able to supply more detail). Undoubtedly some died of broken hearts; or were destroyed by alcoholism etc. But I don’t think that merits the use of “extermination” or “genocide”. There’s an important moral issue of intent, even if there are also questions of what can be reasonably foreseen as the indirect effects of certain actions. In a sense the illegal exile of the Chagossians was an alternative to genocide, which by the later 20th century was no longer an acceptable policy for taking land from powerless people.

  31. Resident Dissident

    21 Apr, 2014 - 4:39 pm

    “Mr Straves” for example, the top 5-star reviewer, says he’s “read quite a bit on conspiracy theories”,but curiously his 8 pages of Amazon reviews don’t include anything on this topic.

    Not true he reviewed “How to spot a histrionic personality”

  32. ‘None of the above’ began ‘life’ as a glorious awareness that all mainstream political parties have exactly the same agenda; just key notes in a perpetual hymn orchestrated by the same conductor. It was the fourth tick-box ‘photoshopped’ on a plebiscite ballot ticket. NOTA is a first step; one of many baby steps needed to release humanity away from an event horizon of chaos and collapse.

    Subjectively, I myself believe Scottish independence might be a trigger for this metamorphosis; like cutting the ‘eye’ out of a completely edible potato one might prepare for a number of interesting options.

    A potato on it’s own leaves little to prepare once the skin or shell is removed and the bad bits gouged out. Collectively we can achieve anything, the power of intention works that way.

    Scottish independence, a NOTA Party and crucially, imperatively a strong community tabloid, magazine, paper, daily, rag or scandal sheet that subliminally and physically injects reason, sanity and knowledge into the pot.

    ‘If you take the view that any attempt to make things better is doomed to failure, I can’t see why you bother to continue living.’ is a heart-breaking truth which touches me at this time; powerful enough for ‘Anon’ to repeat and load his pen.

    Can it also touch you?

  33. Tony,

    I’m sure Gail Tverberg will love you calling her a “young lady”!

    Gail is a mathematician (Qualified Actuary), a former senior editor of the Oil Drum and has probably about as gloomy an outlook as you can get. Gail is expecting the energy and financial systems to crash terminally within the next few years. She might be right.

    Ultimately Gail believes the energy collapse is so close now that nothing bar a miracle can save us.The “good” news is that it saves the planet from the worst of climate change as CO2 emissions start to fall permanently in the relatively near future.

    See Fig 3 chart of future primary energy production at http://ourfiniteworld.com/2014/04/11/oil-limits-and-climate-change-how-they-fit-together/

    Recent brief youtube clip of Tverberg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MN2KiEjvIk

  34. @ Mary 4:07

    The WWF is a fascinating case study in how the deep state co-opts ‘progressive’ causes. When you understand its origins it is no surprise whatever that it is 100% behind the deception that is Britain’s Chagos Islands Ramscar Convention site, or that its principle officers are vetted even more closely than – for example – a BBC current affairs department head.

    This is a very brief intro

    For an in-depth investigation into its history and real purposes see this ISGP article. Hint, environmental and wildlife preservation – just like ‘Humanitarian intervention’ – no more than a wonderful method of blind-siding the well-meaning but infinitely gullible public.

  35. The old WWF/SAS deep state conspiracy holds a special place in my heart because it was the subject of the very first conspiracy web page I saw on the internet. It had an Africa map image with stars showing the coincidence of WWF programmes and SAS operations. I think it had a purple background colour. Ground breaking stuff.

    The boring truth is the workings of finance, arms and imperialism are not hidden away in secret societies. They are out in the open, on the FTSE 100 for example.

    The good news is if you want to usefully oppose the military finance government corporate royal imperialist alliance or whatever you want to call it, you can join others in taking real action. It does take a bit more effort than blowing hot air out of your arse on the internet.

  36. doug scorgie

    21 Apr, 2014 - 6:21 pm

    Anon
    21 Apr, 2014 – 3:13 pm

    “I see some hope in the launch of the new party, NOTA, None Of The Above.”

    “I thought I’d have some fun trying to glean the political leanings of this supposedly non-aligned party. No surprises really, which makes me wonder, why none of the above when you have so many to choose from?”

    Anon, where did you get all that information from?

    Do you have links to back-up your statement?

    If not, stop telling lies!!!

  37. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    21 Apr, 2014 - 6:41 pm

    Doug Scorgie

    “Anon, where did you get all that information from?

    Do you have links to back-up your statement?

    If not, stop telling lies!!!”
    _______________

    You are in need (again) of a lesson in logic, Doug – or perhaps I am.

    You’re saying that if someone fails to provide links to back up a statement, then that statement is a lie.

    Accordingly and by that “logic”, if I claimed the earth revolves round the sun but neglected to furnish you with links, my claim would be a lie. But it is the truth.

    Grateful if you could tease out your post for us in greater detail (links unnecessary). Thanks!

  38. I would argue you can commit the genocide without actively killing the people, just causing them to die

    Yeah, it’s called s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-m.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Shafarevich

  39. I once went to a WWF dinner in Lagos with Prince Philip at which the menu consisted entirely of endangered species. I recall West African Porcupine was the starter. This is perfectly true. I thought at the time it was just some grotesque misunderstanding by the Nigerian hosts, and have often told the story in jest. It didn’t occur to me there might be something sinister about the WWF. Porcupine, incidentally, is pretty unpleasant tasting meat and very difficult to gouge out from the quills. These are deeply embedded which led me to wonder how on earth it can fire them. Presumably its more obvious before its cooked.

    I can’t complain it’s been a boring life….

  40. doug scorgie

    21 Apr, 2014 - 8:43 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    21 Apr, 2014 – 6:41 pm

    “You are in need (again) of a lesson in logic, Doug – or perhaps I am.”

    Not me Habbabkuk but you yes.

    “You’re saying that if someone fails to provide links to back up a statement, then that statement is a lie.”

    No I’m not I didn’t say it was a lie but a position that needs to be backed-up.

    If someone makes a statement claiming it to be true they need to back their position with references etc so that view can be tested.

    “Accordingly and by that “logic”, if I claimed the earth revolves round the sun but neglected to furnish you with links, my claim would be a lie. But it is the truth.”

    Sorry Habbakuk you are a Logic 101 failure.

    If you claimed the sun revolves round the earth I would expect you to back-up that statement and so would everyone else.

    Anyway Habbabkuk why do you continually answer on behalf of other trolls on this blog?

    You are pathetic.

  41. What information, Doug? Why would you vote NOTA when you have so many parties to choose from?

  42. Did P Philip drop any clangers Craig? Do tell.

    Googling WWF produces pages of links like adopt an elephant, adopt this animal, adopt that animal, conservation, climate change, endangered species conservation, Twitter, Facebook, Pininterest, Just Giving…. all with links to their website. Even a joint campaign with Whiskas cat food to protect tigers! And the money comes rolling in. Are there any more elephants, tigers on the planet? No the reverse is true. A con.

    Thank goodness for Wikipedia for some truths. I thought the first two items under ‘Criticism’ were rather droll – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Fund_for_Nature#Criticism

    Criticism

    WWF has been accused by a number of environmental groups and campaigners, such as Corporate Watch and PR Watch of being too close to businesses to campaign objectively. WWF claims partnering with companies such as Coca-Cola, Lafarge and IKEA will reduce their impact on the environment.[23] WWF received €56 million (US$80 million) from corporations in 2010 (an 8% increase in support from corporations compared to 2009), accounting for 11% of total revenue for the year.

    Project Lock

    In 1988, Prince Bernhard, former president of the WWF, sold paintings for GBP700,000 to raise money for the World Wildlife Fund. The money was deposited in a Swiss WWF bank account. In 1989 Charles de Haes, director-general of the WWF, transferred GBP500,000 back to Bernhard, for what De Haes called a “private project”. In 1991, it was revealed that Prince Bernhard had used the money for an operation called Project Lock to hire KAS International, owned by SAS founder David Stirling, to use mercenaries—mostly British—to fight poachers in nature reserves.

    Followed by a para on the hunting activities of the Spanish and British royals.

  43. “Didn’t pro-Putin, anti-Iraq, Syria, and Libya wars Nigel Farage go up to Scotland and offer a non-Neocon, non EU vision? And what was the reaction?”

    ICM poll in today’s Scotsman put UKIP at 10% in Scotland and challenging for a Scottish seat in European Parliament.

  44. ” New Labour’s moral dereliction – or more properly evil – was confirmed by the breathtaking cynicism of David Miliband’s proclamation of a Marine Protected Zone around the islands, designed to protect the American base on Diego Garcia and make it impossible for the Chagos Islanders to return to their living as native fishermen, and keep away any eyes that might see the secret prison inmates.”

    Don’t forget the Prime Minister at the time, he must shoulder most of the blame.

  45. “The UK is represented by Sir Michael Wood. He is the man who overruled my objection inside the FCO to the use of “intelligence” gained from torture, and argued that British cooperation with extraordinary rendition was legal.”

    Michael Wood is a lawyer, they have them in Scotland too. Lawyers don’t have feelings of right and wrong, they don’t use their own judgements, the only thing they do is interpret the law whether they agree with it or not.

    That is why in 2003 Sir Michael Wood advised Tony Blair, born in Glasgow BTW, that the Iraq war would be illegal.

  46. Well I can honestly say that Voodoo Histories is truly dreadful and one of the worst books of that genre I have ever read.

    I was shocked to see the +ve reviews of it on Amazon and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least to see the better ones (>1 star) are fabricated.

    Moreover, what struck me reading it was that it must have been nearly rejected by the publisher at the last minute. It seems clear that the entire first section, which is supposedly an overview, is bolted on to the rest of the book as an afterthought – no doubt due to the arbitrary and meaningless nature of the “conspiracy” examples he selected. Even though there is no coherent thesis in the book about what such theories represent, or their relevance. Just snide bollocks from start to finish.

    Whatever Aaronovitch’s journalistic skills (fwiw I think he’s a smug, talentless creep) he certainly can’t sustain his smarm over booklength work.

  47. GutterTheQuantifier

    21 Apr, 2014 - 10:08 pm

    Shame Craig felt the need to drag his delusions about independence into this. He seems to think Scotland can act like some middle-aged hippy and run away from its responsibilities.

    The crimes of British imperialism are not the exclusive responsibility of the English. Proportionately speaking, the Scots have been, and still are, more culpable.

    If Scotland goes independent they won’t leave the UK. They’ll split it in two, and they’ll take their half of the guilt with them.

  48. Foolish dissenter

    21 Apr, 2014 - 10:14 pm

    To be cynical is not the same as to be defeatist. To believe that Scotland is somehow essentially different and less likely to repeat our collective misdeeds is to forget the role Scots played in the Empire. We are all capable of bad things. America, the New Atlantis, broke free with very coherent and reasoned ideals, but what happened. It is naive to believe that to run away and set up a new country will create better prospects than to work with what we have got. Scottish, Welsh, Irish are not inherently more moral than English. We, the celtic fringes may have had a bad deal over the centuries, but that doesn’t make us inherently better people or less likely to turn a a blind eye, or “do a Diego Garcia”.

    Generally on the Vote I can’t help but agree with Hitchens, and at the same time wonder how a No vote will bruise Scotland’s confidence.

  49. Foolish Dissenter

    I don’t believe for a moment Scotland would have invaded Iraq. It is not different then? So I am imagining free NHS prescriptions, free university tuition, free elderly care? Scotland has very different political attitudes to England which are quite capable of objective measurement – one of which is a twenty point lead in support for EU membership, as opposed to an even split in England. Another one is the absence of Tory MPs.

    You are well named.

  50. ‘If anybody in Scotland can read through this and read through the links, and does not want to take the chance to leave the stinking cesspit of international shame that is the United Kingdom, they are severely deficient in moral sense.’

    I think the stinking cesspit has penetrated Scotland too deeply already. Salmond and his Scottish SNP Government are doing what the UK government wants done in the Megrahi/Lockerbie issue. Salmond has the power to hold an independent inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005 into the performance of the Scottish criminal justice system. The flaws in the investigation, prosecution and adjudication are well documented in the public domain.
    Despite constant pressure Salmond has done nothing.

  51. “I don’t believe for a moment Scotland would have invaded Iraq. It is not different then? So I am imagining free NHS prescriptions, free university tuition, free elderly care? Scotland has very different political attitudes to England which are quite capable of objective measurement – one of which is a twenty point lead in support for EU membership, as opposed to an even split in England. Another one is the absence of Tory MPs.”

    Hang on a tick, it was Blair who misled Parliament into invading Iraq, the leader of the Conservatives was Iain Duncan Smith.

    The political attitudes of the SNP is to get independence at any cost, just as the political attitudes of parties is to get into government. What happens after they get into power is usually completely different, you were a Liberal, you should know that.

  52. If anybody in Scotland can read through this and read through the links, and does not want to take the chance to leave the stinking cesspit of international shame that is the United Kingdom, they are severely deficient in moral sense.

    The manager of Oasis Alan McGee recently said Scots would need to be mentally ill to reject independence.

    The result of Scotland’s referendum isn’t going to be close.

  53. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    21 Apr, 2014 - 10:57 pm

    Doug Scorgie (20h43)

    Do you know the expression “when in a hole, stop digging”? Perhaps not….

    1/. “You’re saying that if someone fails to provide links to back up a statement, then that statement is a lie.”

    No I’m not I didn’t say it was a lie but a position that needs to be backed-up.
    ______________________

    Let me remind you of what you did say to Anon, which was the following:

    “Do you have links to back-up your statement?If not, stop telling lies!!!”

    In other words, if you don’t provide links, you’re lying. Crystal clear.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    2/. “Accordingly and by that “logic”, if I claimed the earth revolves round the sun but neglected to furnish you with links, my claim would be a lie. But it is the truth.”

    Sorry Habbakuk you are a Logic 101 failure.

    If you claimed the sun revolves round the earth I would expect you to back-up that statement and so would everyone else.”
    ___________________

    This response is logically flawed on two counts.

    Firstly, you are not, it seems, asking me for links to back up my claim that the earth revolves round the sun. Why not? Your failure to ask for links appears in contradiction to your general belief that claims made without providing links are false. On the other hand, you would ask me for links if I were to claim that the sun revolves round the earth – why here and not in the other case?

    It is clear that your point of view has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with whether you agree with a poster or not.If you do, you don’t ask for links, if you don’t, you do ask for links. Fair enough, but it’s no good claiming that this is logical or consistent.

    3/. “Anyway Habbabkuk why do you continually answer on behalf of other trolls on this blog?”
    ______________________

    Why not, Doug? Do you think that discussions here should be conducted exclusively on a one-on-one basis, with third parties having to seek permission to speak?

  54. Ben-Smoker, joker, red-eyed toker

    21 Apr, 2014 - 10:58 pm

    ” America, the New Atlantis, broke free with very coherent and reasoned ideals, but what happened.”

    There’s a line from Godfather; “Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in”

    Maverick governments, if that’s what some imagines Scotland would be, tend to be ostracized for their own good. The Ingroup is succored, the outgroup can go fish. It’s standard operating procedure.

    It’s a big club and that want everyone on the same page.

  55. “The result of Scotland’s referendum isn’t going to be close.”

    Last I saw the bookies were offering 5 to 2.

    Only poll I consider reliable.

  56. I’m puzzled at your seeming inconsistency between the Chagos Islands and Palestine. In the past you have resigned yourself to accepting the occupation and theft of Palestinian land. But not here with the Chagos Islands. Why?

  57. I’ll offer 20 quid to any five Murrayistas who wish to take it that Scots vote No.

  58. Craig

    “So I am imagining free NHS prescriptions, free university tuition, free elderly care?”

    Free? What planet are you living on?

  59. AlcAnon/Squonk
    21 Apr, 2014 – 4:59 ….

    Yeh Peak Oil scared me shitless for about a week when I first came across the subject about 12 years ago…It didn’t scared me for my children’s and maybe even their Grandchildren’s lives…

    But the main problem with Peak Oil – is That Michael C Ruppert Blew His Own Brains Out about 10 days ago – and Dave McGowan of The Center of an Informed America Is Still Alive…so far as I know…You should Read what he wrote..about The Boston Bombing. Dave McGowan even Blew The Northern Irish Journalisy away – and He is Really Good..He’s on Sott …but maybe he never did photography at school

    Mark Golding remains by far the most eloquent, and informative poster here…Don’t worry – I only do about 10 posts a year on Craig Murray’s website…I do however Read a lot…some of you guys are very clever and work really hard to try and work out what is really going on, and ask questions – about what we can do about it…So far, no one has come up with any good answers except Putin…

    He just looks at them – and sits back…

    No You Can’t Do That…

    and the neocons dissolve into fascist insanity

    What’s his first name…This Putin bloke…Russia’s President ain’t he…???

    Oh Dear.

    Vicky Nuland You Said The Wrong Thing. That was Not Polite.

    Oil is not a fossil fuel.

    Tony

  60. My Wife and I were again accused today of being Swedish….I said No Love – we are From Lancashire – We are Speaking English…She then asks me – do You Understand The Scottish Then???…No except when They Play The Bag Pipes…as He Did Live in The Pub Today…Us English Screamed for More.

    Tony

  61. Excellent Post Craig

    ” If anybody in Scotland can read through this and read through the links, and does not want to take the chance to leave the stinking cesspit of international shame that is the United Kingdom, they are severely deficient in moral sense.”

    This is exactly my point to Floating/ No voters….

    i can’t in all conscience, Vote for the alternative war criminal Fkers…responsible for Libya, and the Horrors of Syria.

    But i came across this Kinda OT thing… From One Whistle Blower…to Another -

    World Bank Whistleblower Reveals How The Global Elite Rules The World

    ” The goal is control. They want all of us enslaved to debt, they want all of our governments enslaved to debt, and they want all of our politicians addicted to the huge financial contributions that they funnel into their campaigns. Since the elite also own all of the big media companies, the mainstream media never lets us in on the secret that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way that our system works.”

    “But most people have no idea that any of this is happening because the global elite also control what we see, hear and think about. Today, there are just six giant media corporations that control more than 90 percent of the news and entertainment that you watch on your television in the United States.

    This is the insidious system that Karen Hudes is seeking to expose. For much more, you can listen to Joyce Riley of the Power Hour interview her for an entire hour right here.

    Some More on this Piece @

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/world-bank-whistleblower-reveals-how-the-global-elite-rule-the-world/5353130

  62. The ethnic cleansing by the British of an entire small population and culture – the Chagos Islanders – is probably the most despicable act by Britain of my lifetime.

    From a British point of view, this is obviously total bollocks. Far more despicable, and a crime on a vastly greater scale, is the ethnic cleansing by all three British mainstream political parties of more than half the English inhabitants of London, Leicester, Luton and Slough and the ongoing ethnic cleansing of other great English cities, by means of policies that derive from bogus liberal racial science, (aka, anti-racism) including promotion of non-reproductive sex and mass immigration of people who, for the most part regard liberalism with the contempt it deserves, and who are greatly outbreeding the indigenous people of England.

    But what wonderful hypocrisy from a died-in-the-wool liberal bigot and promoter of multiculturalism, i.e., the subordination of English culture to that of a mass of aliens, to condemn the destruction of Chagos culture.

    One wonders, are liberals all brainwashed morons, or just perverted, self-hating white humbugs.

  63. Not me but someone else entirely

    22 Apr, 2014 - 1:24 am

    RT on Freeview is suddenly off air for “planned maintenance”.

    ????

  64. CanSpeccy,

    Personally, I would go for “brainwashed morons”. They are not intriniscaly evil…They just did not do their research properly and see the effects of their colleagues who had been on the final course run by the Tavistock Institute and their “Management Teams”…The way they do it – is to take you away for a series of Residential Courses – where They Teach You Behaviour Analysis – and Behaviour Modification…and train you how to use these Techniques – and – it Really does work…You see, I knew what the final course was like – cos I could see the change…Basically, You are The Only Subject There as a Member of One of The Teams…and They have already found your most profound weaknesses – where you can be attacked from within…and of course when you are mentally destroyed there is your only friend there on the course and she invites you to come to bed with her and you have now betrayed your wife…Now they have got you every way they can…They Clean Your Mind – and We Will Tell Your Wife….They then Rebuild Your Mind – into The Company’s Image – You Will Do Anything For Them…

    I not only didn’t go on the final psychological mind reprogramming course…I said I will go on any course you want to send me on..I will go anywhere you want to send me….even Scotland….so long as I come home every night and I sleep with my wife….

    They said O.K. – You Can Fly.

    Tony

  65. Not Me But Someone Else Entirely

    22 Apr, 2014 - 2:39 am

    CanSpeccy,
    You must be aware that your outburst is absurd. I suspect you are taking the mickey, adopting the manner of a certain type of pub bore, but cranking the levels of crassness and ignorance right up to ‘dangerously deranged’, for comic effect.
    But if I’m wrong and you are actually serious, I recommend that you take a relaxing holiday as soon as possible.

  66. RT being off air is mentioned on their website. Don’t know how much advance notice they gave. Does seem a bit strange that you take down the entire service for “scheduled maintenance”.

    http://rt.com/on-air/

    We would like to inform you that on April 22nd, 2014 from 12:00am (midnight) up to 10:00am (Moscow time), the broadcasting of “Russia Today” television programmes (English, USA, UK, Spanish, Arabic and DOC channels) will be interrupted to conduct scheduled maintenance works.

  67. Ben-Smoker, joker, red-eyed toker

    22 Apr, 2014 - 3:20 am

  68. OT-But have we just seen a classic example of history repeating itself, the kapos and Ukrainian concentration camp guards at it together again???!! Must have been something in Victoria’s pies!

  69. John Pilger – Stealing a Nation – 2004 56 mins

    http://johnpilger.com/videos/stealing-a-nation

    ‘The truth about the removal of the Chagossians and the Whitehall conspiracy to deny there was an indigenous population did not emerge for another twenty years, when files were unearthed at the Public Record Office, in Kew, by the historian Mark Curtis, John Pilger and lawyers for the former inhabitants of the coral archipelago, who were campaigning for a return to their homeland.

    John Pilger first become aware of the plight of the Chagossians in 1982, during the Falklands War: “It was pointed out to me that Britain had sent a fleet to go and save two thousand Falkland Islanders at the other end of the world while two thousand British citizens in islands in the middle of the Indian Ocean had been expelled by British governments and the only difference was that one lot were white and the others were black. The other difference was that the United States wanted the Chagos Islands – and especially Diego Garcia – as a major base. So nothing was said, which tells us something about the ruthlessness of governments, especially imperial governments.”

    [..]

    In the film, John Pilger concludes: “Why do we continue to allow our governments to treat people in small countries as either useful or expendable? Why do we accept specious reasons for the unacceptable? The High Court issued one of the most damning indictments of a British government. It said the secret expulsion of the Chagos Islanders was wrong. That judgement must be upheld and the people of a group of beautiful, once peaceful islands must be helped to go home and compensated fully and without delay for their suffering. Anything less diminishes the rest of us.”‘

  70. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Apr, 2014 - 8:32 am

    @ Lwtc247

    “I’m puzzled at your seeming inconsistency between the Chagos Islands and Palestine. In the past you have resigned yourself to accepting the occupation and theft of Palestinian land. But not here with the Chagos Islands. Why?”
    _______________________

    Probably because the expulsion of the Chagossians was the responsibility of, and carried out by, the UK govt whereas what happened in Palestine wasn’t. And because what happened with the Chagos Islands could be (theoretically) righted/reversed by an act of the UK govt whereas what happened in Palestine can’t.

  71. lwtc247
    21 Apr, 2014 – 11:28 pm
    I’m puzzled at your seeming inconsistency between the Chagos Islands and Palestine. In the past you have resigned yourself to accepting the occupation and theft of Palestinian land. But not here with the Chagos Islands. Why?

    lwtc I think you are wrong in saying this. Have you ever heard Craig speak in public say after Cast Lead or Mavi Marmara? I have.

    There are huge parallels between the Palestinians and the Chagossians or for that matter, any people removed from their homeland and made refugee.

    Thinking of Spring in Palestine
    by Mike Odetalla / April 16th, 2008

    http://www.dissidentvoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/spring-552×35611.png

    What benefit or joy if,

    I were to gain the world,
    But lose the almond blossoms in my land?

    Drink a cup of coffee, everyplace
    But my mother’s home

    Journey to the moon,
    But not to the graves of my ancestors

    See the world’s wonders,
    But not the setting sun as it dips behind ancient olive groves

    Tour the world over,
    But lose the flowers on the hills of my native land

    Nothing but lethal silence…

    No need to gain the world

    Just a cup of coffee
    In a familiar place and
    An end to the lethal silence

    Within the hearts of the living…

    ~~~~

    Mike Odetalla is part of the large Palestinian diaspora and lives in the US. There is a photo of him here in 1979 and another photo of his great grandfather. The family home was stolen from them by deceit. There is also a photo of the key.
    http://anniesnewletters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/ten-of-thousands-of-dollars-in-legal.html

  72. Hi Mary. Hope you are well.

    I know Craig is a strong anti-Zionist, and I’m well aware of his admirable speeches and activism for the Palestinians etc. It’s partly what attracts me to him.

    But he has in the past expressed acceptance of the Zionist theft and occupation of Palestine as a finality. It is wrong to do so. He is inconsistent in these matters.

    “There are huge parallels between the Palestinians and the Chagossians or for that matter, any people removed from their homeland and made refugee.” – I fully agree and BOTH should be allowed back.

  73. Thanks for that lwtc. Yes I’m fine but very stiff from a weekend surfeit of gardening! Perhaps the freezing water of the outsourced local authority swimming pool will help! Profit is king. All the staff previously employed by the local authority have been sacked/made redundant and kids (literally) now occupy their positions.

    Perhaps Craig will clarify although it would be like putting him over a barrel. H above seems to think the ongoing 66 year old Occupation is a fait accompli. Nothing lasts forever!

  74. Sorry I can’t join the discussion at the moment. Here is another potential example of islanders being deprived of land they have cultivated and planted, and seas they have fished, being taken from them without consultation. It is not the Chagos Islands but Ile a Vache off Haiti. This ongoing ‘land grab’, in which a policeman has been imprisoned without charge or trial, needs to be stopped until indigenous islanders are involved in discussions for the future. Here Dady Chery interviews Melinda Wilson, an expert on environmental issues, who visited Ile a Vache in February this year.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2014/04/21/what-kind-of-tourism-is-sustainable-for-haitis-ile-a-vache-interview-with-melinda-wilson/

  75. LWTC

    I wish to see a single, democratic, secular state of Palestine encompassing all the land of Israel and Palestine and including in a completely non-discriminatory way everyone who lives there. To achieve such a solution will indeed likely require acceptance that the majority of settlers stay where they are – I don’t think you can in practice turn landholdings back to 1946. What you can do is pay the dispossessed proper compensation at real values.

  76. As an Irishman living in Scotland I have a certain amount of sympathy with the nationalist cause although not enough to actually vote Yes. My prediction is independence will be rejected by a fairly healthy margi. Hopefully enough to prevent another referendum in five or ten years.

  77. Mick,

    I find that strange in an Irishman. Do you regret Ireland leaving the United Kingdom? If not, why do you not wish Scots to have the same opportunities? I have never met an Irishman who was opposed to Scottish independence, except for sad unionists, which from your name you are not likely to be. I confess that my immediate thought is that you are not a real identity or a real story.

  78. Mary

    Can you find for me what it was that Aaronovitch actually said about Amazon reviews? I still can’t actually find this. It seems to be behind the Murdoch paywall. I thought I might do a piece about it.

  79. “As an Irishman living in Scotland I have a certain amount of sympathy with the nationalist cause although not enough to actually vote Yes. My prediction is independence will be rejected by a fairly healthy margi. Hopefully enough to prevent another referendum in five or ten years.”

    Salmond has already stated that if independence is rejected this time there will be another, they will keep on having them till he gets the result he wants.

  80. Craig,

    Both my identity and story are real. In fact you were elected Rector of Dundee in the last year of my undergraduate degree.

    I grew up in the North so I have a complicated outlook on the question of national identity but one which I am happy with. I believe myself to be Irish but I am happy to be a unionist in the context of NI remaining as part of the UK. Not sure if this qualifies as making me a sad unionist or not!

    I don’t regret Ireland leaving the union as there was a mandate for such an action. I do regret that the country was partitioned. However, the parallels between Irish independance and the Scottish referendum are few and far between. I simply have not been moved by the Yes Campaign’s arguments. According to them everything is going to magically improve with independence, I simply don’t buy this.

  81. “The stinking cesspit of international shame”

    You wouldn’t be saying that if you hadn’t got the sack, would you?

  82. “RT on Freeview is suddenly off air for “planned maintenance”.”

    Oh no, not “planned maintenance”. Whatever next, “scheduled maintenance”?

  83. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Apr, 2014 - 11:46 am

    Mary

    “H above seems to think the ongoing 66 year old Occupation is a fait accompli.”

    I didn’t say that. My post attempted answer Ltwc’s question. But I do think that to compare the two events in absolutist terms is unproductive and unrealistic.

  84. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Apr, 2014 - 11:52 am

    Craig (10h08)

    Subject to what you mean by a “secular state” I’d agree with what you say.

    (I think that calling a state “Jewish” or “Islamic” – eg the Islamic republic of Iran – means nothing in itself – surely what is important is to determine what this means in practice, ie in terms of political, religious, etc freedoms)

  85. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Apr, 2014 - 11:57 am

    Bluntly

    ““The stinking cesspit of international shame”

    You wouldn’t be saying that if you hadn’t got the sack, would you?”
    __________________

    From what I know and have read of Craig’s story, it seems that that was precisely the reason he got the sack (in a more limited and specific way, of course)?

  86. Habbabkuk, 11:57 am; well said.

    Bluntly, 11:16 am; it was precisely because the system is a “stinking cesspit of international shame” that it acted against Craig’s humanitarian values, not merely sacking him (concurrently with his resignation), but smearing him and attempting to discredit him. It wasn’t just Craig it was suppressing; it was his values and their potential effect upon the public.

  87. foolish conformist

    22 Apr, 2014 - 1:41 pm

    “I don’t believe for a moment Scotland would have invaded Iraq.”

    It would have been worth a yes vote if it could have stopped the invasion of Iraq; I will agree with you on that.

  88. Mick, 10:52 am:

    “I simply have not been moved by the Yes Campaign’s arguments. According to them everything is going to magically improve with independence,”

    Scotland’s electoral system is far more versatile and responsive to the will of the electorate than Westminster’s, where the misnamed “first past the post” electoral system creates an almost insurmountable threshold against modern and innovative candidates and parties. So with independence, Scotland would be relieved of the dead weight of Westminster, and thus freed to pursue improvement.

  89. Foolish dissenter, 10:14 pm:

    “Scottish, Welsh, Irish are not inherently more moral than English. We, the celtic fringes may have had a bad deal over the centuries, but that doesn’t make us inherently better people or less likely to turn a a blind eye, or ‘do a Diego Garcia’”

    No, but the British people, English, Scots, Welsh, Irish and all, are inherently more moral than the Westminster government. Diego Garcia had to be covered up; the huge protests against the attack on Iraq could be simply ignored due to the unresponsive “FPTP” electoral system.

    Vote for independence because it’ll throw a huge spanner in the works of the “British nuclear deterrent”, and thus the projection of immoral US/UK power across the world.

  90. I have just heard Hugh Robertson MENA FCO minister on The World At One pouring derision on the planned election in Syria. He spoke of ‘getting rid of Assad and his henchmen.’ He is of course himself a henchman of the USUKIsNATO axis of evil. He had no answer to a question about supporting a moderate opposition when there is internecine fighting and killing ongoing in the rabble rebel groups in that benighted country.

    I read the other day of Takfiris beheading a group of Syrian soldiers and photographed with the decapitated heads.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/19/359250/takfiris-decapitate-7-syrian-soldiers/

  91. ” Scotland would be relieved of the dead weight of Westminster, and thus freed to pursue improvement. ”

    Ahh like Salmond wanted to ditch Westminster’s “gold plated” banking regulations back in 2007 because they weren’t needed by Scottish banks with their superior probity?

  92. I read Aaronovitch’s piece in a caff yesterday Craig. I will never give Murdoch a penny piece so do not have access to the digital version. I will ask the Medialens editors if they have sight of it and if so, let us have a copy. His piece was about fraud and the chap who claimed to have run the London Marathon in record time.

  93. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Apr, 2014 - 2:56 pm

    Mary

    “I have just heard Hugh Robertson MENA FCO minister on The World At One pouring derision on the planned election in Syria. …etc…”
    _________________

    Mary, could you not – of only as a simple matter of courtesy towards Craig – try and stay on topic until at least let us say page 2?

    If you have nothing to say on the subject of this thread, you do have the option of remaining silent for a day or so. We do follow the news, you know, without your help and some of us do actually listen to The World at One all by ourselves.

  94. ” Can you find for me what it was that Aaronovitch actually said about Amazon reviews? I still can’t actually find this. It seems to be behind the Murdoch paywall. I thought I might do a piece about it. ”

    Be careful that you haven’t fallen for a bit of disinformation. Truthers hate Aaronovitch’s book for obvious reasons and as you might’ve noticed around here a common reaction when a Truther is challenged is to accuse the challenger of being a paid “shill”. The logic being that only someone in the pay of the government would support the official version of events. It also saves the Truther from getting into a debate which they know they will loose. The same logic would dictate that good reviews of Voodoo Histories could only have come from the author or those in his influence plus of course there’s the added benefit of a smear.

  95. Hear, hear, Mr M.

    Diego Garcia — wasn’t that the price we had to pay for staying out of the Vietnam War?

  96. They responded quickly. Really kind of the Medialens editors.

    April 21, 2014 Monday
    Edition 1;
    National Edition
    Marathon man Jumps barrier of credibility;
    David Aaronovitch Notebook

    SECTION: EDITORIAL; Pg. 24

    LENGTH: 647 words

    The fourth greatest moment in my life was finishing the London marathon in 2006. The time wasn’t bad for a chap in the forest depths of middle age: 26.2 miles in 4 hours and 21 minutes. Bear with me here, because the stats are going to matter. I ran the first half of the marathon in just under 2 hours and the second half took nearly 30 minutes longer. This “split” was not surprising, because towards the end it was only willpower keeping me going.

    The weekend before last, a thirtysomething male model called Jason Scotland-Williams did something extraordinary. In the April sun he ran the London marathon in 3 hours 9 minutes. Pretty good. But Mr S-W’s split was incredible. He’d covered the first half in 2 hours 8 (slower than me) and the second half in 1 hour 1 minute. This is more or less the UK men’s record for a half marathon. People are suspicious.

    There is a stretch, just after halfway, when the marathon route doubles back on itself. If you were to somehow jump the barrier you would go straight from, say, mile 14 to mile 22. But Mr S-W is adamant that this is not what he did. He told the Telegraph indignantly that “nobody thinks maybe I just trained hard. No one thinks ‘maybe he paced himself through the first half and when the second half came he just let himself go’”. Or, to put it another way, nobody thinks “maybe he turned from David Aaronovitch into Mo Farah somewhere on Tower Bridge”. The odds are not good.

    But the question is why might someone cheat? In this case, as far as we know, no money rested on it and if my experience is any guide, the number of people who are actually interested in what time you do is disappointingly small. Really it’s about your perception of yourself. And what would you rather think: that you were a slow, honest runner or a slow, dishonest one?

    Sock puppet show

    Such cheating, however pointless it may seem, has a long history. The week’s second piece of confabulation concerns a much more recent form of deception. There is a minor public figure, let us call him Alter Ego, who is given to making grandiose claims about his expertise and experience. Mr Ego has now become a regular invitee on TV and radio programmes. In certain online and social media forums such as Twitter Mr Ego, a combative figure, is often backed up by supporters who, though independent, invariably praise what he has to say, and disparage his critics. “Great performance by Alter Ego on Every Question tonight!” tweets a Verity Speekes. Ms Speekes has little to say about herself. That’s because she is a “sock puppet” – an online identity created and manipulated by Ego himself. And if Mr Ego has the time, he may manufacture several of these identities. Sometimes, to brush over their footprints, he will even fabricate a short, false dialogue. As in “you really won that battle, Mr E!” “Why thank you, Verity. Always good to hear your opinion!” But is this actually fraudulent behaviour? No more than jumping the barrier.

    Stars in their eyes

    Sometimes though, even good people (ie me) have to do questionable things, because the system makes us. Take my last book debunking conspiracy theories. There are many thousands of people who have invested deeply in believing that 9/11, the Malaysia airliner and swine flu were all inside jobs.

    Something like half of all book sales are now made through Amazon, and when you find a book on Amazon it is accompanied by reviews from “readers” who give it a 1 (lowest) to 5 star rating. So, almost before my book was published, the first 1-star reviews started to appear, from people who had never read it. After a week, even I wouldn’t have bought it.

    There is only one thing you can do in this situation. You ask every friend and family member to go onsite PDQ and 5-star your baby. You get your frauds to balance off their frauds. Ce n’est pas magnifique, mais (grâce à Amazon) c’est la guerre.

  97. Kempe 22 Apr, 2014 – 2:57 pm

    “Be careful that you haven’t fallen for a bit of disinformation. Truthers hate Aaronovitch’s book for obvious reasons and as you might’ve noticed around here a common reaction when a Truther is challenged is to accuse the challenger of being a paid “shill”. The logic being that only someone in the pay of the government would support the official version of events. It also saves the Truther from getting into a debate which they know they will loose. The same logic would dictate that good reviews of Voodoo Histories could only have come from the author or those in his influence plus of course there’s the added benefit of a smear.”

    However, if it turns out that Aaronovitch really has admitted to admitted to putting fake reviews of Voodoo Histories on Amazon, or encouraging others to do so, then it is you who have smeared the ‘Truthers.’

    Who are the smearers on this blog? Watch this space.

  98. Having considered the evidence, the jury concludes ….

    Kempe is the smearer.

    Again.

  99. BTW, I genuinely hadn’t read Mary’s confirmation of Aaronovitch’s admission when I posted my challenge to Kempe, and even if I had, my point would have remained.

    Apology, Kempe?

  100. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Apr, 2014 - 3:58 pm

    Re Aronovitch and his book reviews on Amazon

    Some here are in danger of forgetting that what is important is whether his arguments hold up and are convincing, and not whether he planted favorable reviews.

    To find out whether his arguments are convincing or not, you have to read the book and not the Amazon reviews.

    In a way, it’s a little like links, isn’t it. They are no substitute, in matters like this, to making up your own mind. (Apologies to Mr Douglas Scorgie)

  101. ‘Murdoch calling. Murdoch calling.’ I am just old enough to remember hearing ‘Germany calling. Germany calling.’ They knew how to do it in those days.
    http://www.rundfunk-nostalgie.de/sendero.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Calling

    ~~~~

    From the Medialens editors

    Murdoch’s propaganda machine in full swing on Russia.
    Posted by The Editors on April 22, 2014, 1:24 pm

    Two-page spread in this weekend’s Sunday Times:

    ‘Rise of the New Russian Empire’

    ‘Taking advantage of turmoil. Almost a century on, Putin and the crisis in Ukraine have disturbing parallels with the rise and pre-war territorial expansion of Hitler.’

    And, without any irony from within the belly of News International, Matt Rudd writes a classic of the genre:

    ‘This is the Kremlin calling: the propaganda channel in your living room.’

    We look forward to the following instalments of Rudd’s clever repartee:

    ‘This is Downing Street/Whitehall/Westminster calling: the propaganda channel in your living room.’

    For the relevant images, see our FB post below:

    DC

    Link: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=656709311032895&id=147079088662589

  102. Ben-Smoker, joker, red-eyed toker

    22 Apr, 2014 - 5:57 pm

    Murdoch’s doppleganger, Mary. Founded the Fatherland Party. Sound familiar?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Hugenberg

  103. ” Apology, Kempe? ”

    Only if you have evidence that ALL the five star reviews of Voodoo Histories can be traced back to Aaronovitch and his friends, family etc and apologise on behalf of all the Truthers who posted negative reviews before the book went on sale.

  104. Ben-Smoker, joker, red-eyed toker

    22 Apr, 2014 - 6:11 pm

    “German propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, was well aware of the necessity to seize every opportunity to benefit and promote the Third Reich.[4] Goebbels claimed the radio was the “eighth great power” [5] and he, along with the Nazi party, recognized the power of the radio in the propaganda machine of Nazi Germany.****** Recognizing the importance of radio in disseminating the Nazi message, Goebbels approved a mandate whereby millions of cheap radio sets were subsidized by the government and distributed to German citizens.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_propaganda

  105. The enforced exile of the Chagos islanders, at the behest of the UK government and in the interests of Cold War realpolitik, is indeed a shameful chapter in our post war history, but Iain Orr is right to take Craig to task for the language he used here. Linking this episode to his ongoing pro- independence stance is also a bit lame, frankly.

    As for this being a ‘a key test for international law’, well, that may depend on the motivation of the party bringing this issue before the UN, namely, the Mauritian government. I doubt if they are doing this purely out of fellow feeling for the exiled Chagossians; they have done little to assist them since their forced relocation to the Mauritian mainland. The lease on the US base is of course due for renewal shortly; I suspect they are warm to the idea of becoming new landlords for the base, and would come to an amicable settlement themselves with the US over its continuation, should the partition of their archipelago by a cynical UK government 50 years ago retrospectively be declared illegal. The Chagos islanders may then be offered a few more crumbs, to add to the pitiful compensation already paid by the UK government, but a ‘return’ to their former homeland won’t be agreed.

    Meanwhile, as the O/T items include Aaronovitch’s own fake testimonials for his ‘Voodoo Histories’, here is an elucidation of why such self praise was necessary-

    http://spartacus-educational.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/voodoo-histories-role-of-conspiracy.html

  106. Ben-Smoker, joker, red-eyed toker

    22 Apr, 2014 - 6:25 pm

    OM; Aaronovitch knows how easy it is to intimidate with identity politics. The deep sink of ‘conspiracy theories’ can color any germane conclusions as barmy.

    ‘Antisemitic’ has been an effective diversion as well.

  107. ” Apology, Kempe? ”

    Only if you have evidence that ALL the five star reviews of Voodoo Histories can be traced back to Aaronovitch and his friends, family etc and apologise on behalf of all the Truthers who posted negative reviews before the book went on sale.

    Why would I have to prove that?
    Mary was the first to bring this matter to our attention on the previous thread. She said:

    “I read some of the scribbler Aaronovitch’s piece in the Times today. He admits to getting family and friends to put in good reviews on Amazon for his rubbish book Voodoo Histories to counter the one star reviews put on by the ‘conspiracy theorists’ as he calls anyone who disbelieves the output of the corporate media.”
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/uk-moves-to-block-us-senate-report-to-protect-blair-straw-and-dearlove/comment-page-3/#comment-453343

    Then you came along and said:

    “Be careful that you haven’t fallen for a bit of disinformation. Truthers hate Aaronovitch’s book for obvious reasons and as you might’ve noticed around here a common reaction when a Truther is challenged is to accuse the challenger of being a paid “shill”. The logic being that only someone in the pay of the government would support the official version of events. It also saves the Truther from getting into a debate which they know they will loose. The same logic would dictate that good reviews of Voodoo Histories could only have come from the author or those in his influence plus of course there’s the added benefit of a smear.”

    (1) Read Mary’s comment. Is there evidence of of disinformation or smearing?
    (2) Read your own comment. Did you accuse the person who supplied the information of disinformation and smearing?

    If you answered (1) “no” and (2) “yes”, then you owe Mary an apology.
    If your answers were different, please explain why.

  108. Mick at 10.12am.

    I have no idea how the vote will go in September, but on this fact I’m sure that you are right; the people can vote “No” as often as they like, but they only have to vote “Yes” once. With the inexorable logic that some Canadian wag (in connection with the separatism of Quebec) called a ‘Neverendum’ they will almost certainly keep getting asked until they get the answer right. That is a pity for several reasons, but mostly because it keeps attention on this sideshow, this non-issue, while the country continues to go to hell in a bucket. Serious issues to do with the economy, education, the environment, the privatisation of the N.H.S., why our leaders continue to do anything that the nutters in Washington ask of them without question and to the detriment of Britain and her people are side-lined while we “debate” the merits of a petty and parochial separatism.

    It is ironic, given the Republicanism of many separatists, that they allow their sense of identity and the shape of contemporary British political discourse to be dictated by the power struggles between Norman-French-speaking aristos seven hundred years ago. Oh, well, what can be done?

    You may guess that unlike you I have little sympathy for the separatist cause.

  109. CanSpeccy,
    You must be aware that your outburst is absurd. I suspect you are taking the mickey, adopting the manner of a certain type of pub bore, but cranking the levels of crassness and ignorance right up to ‘dangerously deranged’, for comic effect.
    But if I’m wrong and you are actually serious,

    Good work. The usual liberal resort to insults and derision, without rebuttal of a single fact or argument.

    But it leaves open the question of whether English liberals are all brainwashed morons, as Tony_Opmoc suggests or — the only apparent alternative — perverted, self-hating white humbugs.

  110. Foolish dissenter

    23 Apr, 2014 - 12:14 am

    Mike – wasn’t the price for staying out of Vietnam the pound sterling & the British economy.

    Clark – I can’t help but suspect that you are being naive, just as many were naive about Obama. I say suspect, perhaps its just a feeling as I don’t base it on much empiric evidence. Its exciting to think of an independent Scotland, but politicians are politicians and surely deals will be done one way or another. New countries are like babies and they need grown ups to protect them or they face danger, or else they need to be very grown up and tough (eg Israel, which like it or loathe it has survived because it has been exceptionally realistic and tough). Look at the liberal party. I could not comprehend (well there was a change of leader) how having stood up on Iraq they suddenly folded over Libya, or indeed how all the parties with very few dissenters opposed Libya.

    Why are we not working towards a more regionally balanced United Kingdom, rather than a United States of Europe? Of course Ireland , Wales and Scotland have plenty to be aggrieved about and plenty to be proud of. Why don’t we build the New Atlantis here in our own yard including with those we might not get on with very well? I can’t help but feel, from a Welsh perspective that nationalism is rather defeatist; is celtic regional independence not finally waving goodbye to the long lost lands. Of course lands belong to no one ultimately and an over insistence on identity is rather sad, whatever that identity.

  111. Foolish dissenter

    23 Apr, 2014 - 12:18 am

    Mary: RT is doing not a bad job with propaganda either for lets not forget that is what it is. I am not complaining as I like to read and hear all propaganda. It will be interesting to see the response to Putin’s arctic naval base announcement.

  112. Foolish dissenter, 12:14 am; I don’t see any effective way to change or effectively influence the Westminster system. I helped campaign to change to the Alternative Vote system. That was defeated, and there probably won’t be another such opportunity for decades.

    I agree that politicians are politicians, but my argument is about structure. The Westminster structure is inherently unresponsive. That the Scottish Parliament has so many MSPs that are not from the major three British parties demonstrates that the Scottish system is far more responsive.

    My position is that Scottish independence would move power to some extent from politicians to the people.

    Yes, deals will be done over the Trident nuclear weapons. But Trident will have a more difficult time if Scotland becomes independent than if it doesn’t.

  113. Not me but, etc (life really is good, you should try it)

    23 Apr, 2014 - 2:48 am

    CanSpeccy

    I really don’t think I’m a brainwashed moron or a self-hating aryan or whatever it was you said.

    But I’m certain I’m not a fuçking liberal.

    I love and respect my father and those of his generation who fought against fascism with selfless bravery, sacrifice, and bullets.

    No pasaran. And that means you.

  114. OldMark: “Meanwhile, as the O/T items include Aaronovitch’s own fake testimonials for his ‘Voodoo Histories’, here is an elucidation of why such self praise was necessary-

    Thank you for that immensely enjoyable & totally devastating exposure of Aaronovitch.

  115. “Meanwhile, as the O/T items include Aaronovitch’s own fake testimonials for his ‘Voodoo Histories’, here is an elucidation of why such self praise was necessary ”

    John Simkin has written about the Kennedy assassination and is/was the host of a website devoted to “research” into the event. Hardly an unbiased opinion, certainly someone with an interest in keeping the debate going.

    http://jfkfacts.org/tag/john-simkin/

  116. “(1) Read Mary’s comment. Is there evidence of of disinformation or smearing? ”
    (2) Read your own comment. Did you accuse the person who supplied the information of disinformation and smearing? ”

    My comment was posted before the text of Aaronovitch’s latest opinion piece was posted here and wasn’t directed at Mary. If you read it I was only raising the possibilty that it could be deliberate misinformation.

    For the record I’m not a cheerleader for Aaronovitch. I’m aware that he supported the Iraq war and has some other unpleasant political views, Voodoo Histories is the only thing of his I’ve ever read (I won’t buy Murdoch papers either) and I think he hit the nail pretty squarely on the head with it.

  117. ‘John Simkin has written about the Kennedy assassination and is/was the host of a website devoted to “research” into the event. Hardly an unbiased opinion, certainly someone with an interest in keeping the debate going.’

    Classic ‘play the man, not the ball’ response from you there Kempe. He may be an old Labour leftie who hasn’t swallowed the whole Warren Commission-Arlen Spector- ‘Magic Bullett’ farrago, but this background doesn’t invalidate his forensic demolition of your hero’s ‘Voodoo Histories’ I posted earlier.

  118. “Forensic Demolition”? Where? He concentrates on the JFK assassination which occupies 15 pages of a good size book and provides no evidence. His claim regarding historians, proper historians, and their attitude to the Warren Report is just plain wrong too.

  119. “My comment was posted before the text of Aaronovitch’s latest opinion piece was posted here and wasn’t directed at Mary. If you read it I was only raising the possibilty that it could be deliberate misinformation.”

    Weasel words, Kempe. You begin with “Be careful that you haven’t fallen for a bit of disinformation” ie, deliberately false information, designed to mislead. You then suggest there are dishonest motives behind the post.
    You may not have been aware it was Mary’s post you were referring to, but nonetheless it is she you have maligned and owe an apology to.

  120. This is a good point. An independent SCotland could wash its hands of Diego Garcia. On the other hand, the Labour party is stronger in Scotland. Labour activitists could try to get Milliband the Younger to reverse the stance of the unjust historic stance of the British government on this issue.

  121. But I’m certain I’m not a fuçking liberal.

    So you just argue like one, i.e.: “the usual liberal resort to insults and derision, without rebuttal of a single fact or argument.”

    As for what yer dad did in the war, so what? Does that have any bearing whatever on my argument? Obviously not, otherwise, I’d respond with the statement (which happens to be true) that my father served during WWII as a volunteer in the RAF.

    But here you are. Here’s a second chance to deal with the argument:

    The ethnic cleansing by the British of an entire small population and culture – the Chagos Islanders – is probably the most despicable act by Britain of my lifetime.

    From a British point of view, this is obviously total bollocks. Far more despicable, and a crime on a vastly greater scale, is the ethnic cleansing by all three British mainstream political parties of more than half the English inhabitants of London, Leicester, Luton and Slough and the ongoing ethnic cleansing of other great English cities, by means of policies that derive from bogus liberal racial science, (aka, anti-racism) including promotion of non-reproductive sex and mass immigration of people who, for the most part regard liberalism with the contempt it deserves, and who are greatly outbreeding the indigenous people of England.

    But what wonderful hypocrisy from a died-in-the-wool liberal bigot and promoter of multiculturalism, i.e., the subordination of English culture to that of a mass of aliens, to condemn the destruction of Chagos culture.

    One wonders, are liberals all brainwashed morons, or just perverted, self-hating white humbugs.

  122. ” You may not have been aware it was Mary’s post you were referring to ”

    What?

    How could I not be aware whose post I was addressing?

  123. Not Me But blah etc

    24 Apr, 2014 - 12:57 am

    CanSpeccy,By laudibly volunteering to take up arms, your father signalled his commonsense belief that the only way to deal with fascists is to kill them.So he would surely be ripped apart by the knowledge that his own son is now espousing fascist ideas on the internet.You are a disgrace to your family and your nation.

  124. “In truth, if colonial conquest and force majeure are legitimate grounds of sovereignty, and if extermination of a population can wipe out the legal right to self-determination, then in international law Britain has the right to Diego Garcia and to give it as tribute to their US overlords”

    Well said. It seems to be happening everywhere. And it’s much closer to home than you might realise.

  125. “.. That Michael C Ruppert Blew His Own Brains Out about 10 days ago ..”

    That’s the first I heard of Ruppert’s death. Sad. I’d read a lot of his work many years ago. I liked him, very interesting, fiery. A real loss.

  126. There is a very dangerous game being played in the present Ukraine crisis. This might mot be the Chagos Islands issue – but it is international law and politics in a way that affects us all. READ ON…

    1. After the Cuban Missile crisis – the West ostensibly agreed to remain in its sphere of influence. The Turkey missiles were removed. Backdoor deal Khrushchev and Kennedy agreed – no invasion of Cuba – no further move East towards Russia.

    2. Truth be told – Gorbochav got duped. He thought that he would have prosperity with “democracy”.

    3. Putin is not buying and the forces are matched:-

    i) Return to the “Cold war” ‘and

    ii) A hot war is on the cards for Ukraine.

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