Simon Ostrovsky

by craig on April 25, 2014 11:10 pm in Uncategorized

I am pleased that Simon Ostrovsky has been released.  He is a decent journalist, who back on 30 October 2007 did a very good piece on Newsnight about the terrible child slavery compelled by the state in the cotton fields of Uzbekistan.  They had done some secret filming in Uzbekistan, which took much courage.

There was however one strange thing about Ostrovsky’s film.  I was called in to the Newsnight studio in the morning to do a pre-record piece on what I had witnessed of this terrible system of cruel forced labour.  I also recounted how I had reported it to government while I was Ambassador there from 2002 to 2004, but the British government had refused to take any action, as had the EU.

But none of my interview was shown in the programme, nor was I mentioned.  Instead a New Labour minister was interviewed and he was allowed to say, unchallenged, that the film was absolutely shocking and the British government had no prior idea this was happening; they would now look into it etc.  Needless to say they still did nothing, nor has anything ever been done to have child slave cotton banned from the UK.  Why do you think Primark is so cheap?

I do not know whether Ostrovsky had any editorial control over the decision to cut the interview which proved the New Labour minister was lying through his teeth.

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130 Comments

  1. Glad he is free Craig…

    was that a Simon Ostrovsky film…i saw that i think..it was the same one …i searched ages for it again after first seeing it…could never find it again…well done Simon

  2. You are an expert on Uzbekistan, actually having been there as our ambassador. You know about the slavery. My suspicion is that because you told the truth before they relieved you of your responsibilities it would appear that there was no need to ease you out if your opinions were broadcast. Anyway it was the BBC. And the BBC has an agenda. Hope at least you got paid.

  3. No, I didn’t get paid! Not even my expenses :-(

  4. Craig, that is disgusting. I provided a photograph of the energy block of Chernobyl to the Daily Mail from a Russian magazine called “Energiya” at the time of the disaster. That same night the BBC broadcast film footage of the inside of Chernobyl and the Daily Mail did not use the photo. I was however paid for it.

    It just deepens my disgust and mistrust of the BBC.

  5. Resident Dissident

    25 Apr, 2014 - 11:45 pm

    If you had limited time and wanted to try and get something done about slave labour in the Uzbek cotton fields then I’m afraid most journalists would put an interview with an acting minister saying that he would look into the problem above one with a former ambassador who has no such power.

    It is still disgraceful that nothing was done in the end but that is hardly Ostrovsky’s fault.

  6. Resident Dissident

    I do not object to their not showing me. I do object very strongly to their allowing the minister to lie that the government did not know about the practice, when the journalists knew that was a lie, but still did not challenge the minister. Apart from any other consideration, Murder in Samarkand had already been published which details it.

  7. RD, don;t you think it is disgusting that the BBC called in an expert and did not pay him, not even his expenses? I am sure you would want to get paid for giving an informed opinion.

  8. It’s a reminder that there is a terrible social cost behind cheap clothing. I saw the cotton fields in Uzbekistan. Conditions do tend to vary for the workers. It usually depends on how much pressure the local Administrators are under. I wonder if consumers saw the conditions some children work in, would it diminish their appetitive for cheap clothing?

  9. John have you seen the film Craig refers to… i spent hours looking for it…if it’s the same one…

    it’s brave as fk undercover… the most striking parts are when the kids are all taken from schools, which are actually closed for cotton farming… infants even..clutching their bedding, sent to the fields..WITH A POLICE ESCORT… brave filming

  10. And that was the BBC reporting at its best. Good reporting.

  11. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 12:15 am

    Craig

    Even so – if the journalist really wanted to do something about the problem and get a commitment from a government minister to do something about it, I could see that he might decide to go with that rather than spend the interview demonstrating that the minister was a liar (a position which they are usually pretty good at defending having had a lot of practice) and ending up with no such commitment. Not perfect but such dilemmas are quite common for journalists.

    Only trying to see the other side of the story – the real problem of course is that nothing has changed in Uzbekistan. The real culprits to get are probably the cotton buyers rather the retailers who in my experience do not get into direct buying of raw cotton.

  12. John thanks for the link. If you look at the other films too, Ostrovsky is a good journalist.

  13. Cheers John i’ll check that now.

  14. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 12:26 am

    RD, don;t you think it is disgusting that the BBC called in an expert and did not pay him, not even his expenses? I am sure you would want to get paid for giving an informed opinion.

    It doesn’t look right – I am not privy to the conversations between Craig and the BBC to know whether or not the BBC’s behaviour was disgusting. Lots of people are prepared to offer their opinions to news organisations without being paid a fee or expenses – and you would probably be the first to complain if certain people were to demand such payments. Perhaps myself, Habba, ESLO and others should all demand a fee for your use of our handles on your blog – being a kind hearted soul you can pay mine to charity.

  15. John,

    I should say that I am not as worried about the expenses issue as you are!

  16. “being a kind hearted soul you can pay mine to charity.”

    It’s going to Reprieve. :)

  17. BrianFujisan

    26 Apr, 2014 - 1:13 am

    John ya wee Beaut…

    Thank you…

    the second film was the one i was lookin for…

    But what a wee slimey cretin that Terry Townsend shit is…And yes great reporting…but the Pinnacle of bbc reporting… it went down hill BIG time shortly after wards…

  18. Kelly ben Maimon

    26 Apr, 2014 - 1:29 am

    Craig, could you please give me ISBN for Murder in Samarkand? Is it still on print?

    As a former chair, of a school governing body, passionate about education. Sounds to me, as though your book needs to be in the library, of every school, in the country. Why? Because even though I would categorically disagree with you in some areas, it does not stop me from respecting a remarkable character, who could quite easily have faded away. From what I have heard, you were a brilliant ambassador and still thought highly of, amongst your former colleagues. I am so sorry, you are no longer in that post. What a waste!

  19. I’m glad to see he has been released too – he has done some good and brave reporting from Ukraine, though I’m surprised he hasn’t had serious problems before now.

    The full playlist is available here:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o5zqF6WJR8zuC7Uwyv76h7R

    Gripping stuff.

  20. I am surprised you are surprised, Craig.

    The BBC filters everything to suit political agendas imposed and enforced from elsewhere in their command food-chain. I know you are no fan of Putin, but some of the BBC spin on Ukraine and western meddling has been gobsmackingly dishonest. Similar issue to yours about this report. Some of the BBC reporting on Syria has been just as blatantly dishonest with falsified reports.

    We pay £145.50 for a compulsory annual licence for the distortions and lies they feed us. Instead of giving us value for money in telling the truth, managers upstairs are fending off the political class who control whether the BBC will continue to receive its licence money as a divine right.

    BBC News has turned into how Radio Moscow used to sound in USSR past times. In fact, it is worse because the modern day BBC lies are more glossily presented and in some circles they still retain an image of perceived honesty which they have now squandered. Not worth taking seriously except as a manifestation of what lies our government expects us to swallow.

    Remember the Jimmy Savile scandal blew up over manipulation of Newsnight reporting by senior BBC management disconnected from News.

  21. Kelly ben Maimon 26 Apr, 2014 – 1:29 am

    Well said. Murder in Samarkand ought also to be in every university library and I have written to some departments of universities questioning why it is not there in this freedom-loving west.

    The ISBN is1-84596-194-3

    My only conclusion as to why the libraries of many universities, colleges and schools do not hold copies is the politics of the chancellors or governing bodies. For that same reason Robert Tressell’s great working-class novel “The Ragged-trousered Philanthropists” never gets onto any curricula. It is credit to you, and the others who make an exception to state dogma to make available worthy books, and if you still have influence perhaps you could encourage other governors to purchase this highly-readable book.

  22. The ISBN is: 1-84596-194-3

  23. Two versions of the same happening. Make up your own mind which one to accept, or maybe neither.

    Detained Vice journalist Simon Ostrovsky released in east Ukraine
    http://rt.com/news/154772-ostrovsky-vice-journalist-released/

    US journalist Simon Ostrovsky held by pro-Russian militia in Ukraine
    Vice News film-maker held captive in eastern city of Slavyansk, ‘suspected of spying’, says spokeswoman for insurgentshttp://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/american-journalist-simon-ostrovsky-vice-held-pro-russians-ukraine

    ~~~

  24. Ha’aretz reports –

    Ukraine militants singled out American-Israeli journalist as valuable hostage
    Self-appointed mayor in eastern Ukrainian says separatists needs a ‘bargaining chip’ for leverage with Kiev.

    [..]

    ‘However as time emerges, it seems more likely that he was deemed a valuable hostage due to his dual citizenships, American and Israeli, both of which have been emphasized by his captors in media interviews.

    The self-appointed “people’s mayor” of Slavyansk, Vyacheslave Ponomarev confirmed in an interview with a Russian website that he was holding Ostrovsky and said that “We need captives. We need a bargaining chip. Many of our comrades are imprisoned. Those guys [Ukrainians] are grabbing them, then taking them to Kiev and torturing them. So then, we’re doing the very same thing.” Other members of the militia currently controlling Slavyansk accused Ostrovsky of being a spy of Pravy Sektor, an ultra-nationalist Ukrainian party opposed to Russia.

    Both the American State Department and Israel’s Foreign Ministry have been trying to secure Ostrovsky’s release. A source at the ministry in Jerusalem said “the embassy in Kiev is inquiring with the local authorities what they know and to see how they can help. U.S. State Department spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, said “We are deeply concerned about the reports of a kidnapping of a U.S. citizen journalist in Slovyansk [sic], Ukraine, reportedly at the hands of pro-Russian separatists. We condemn any such actions, and all recent hostage takings in eastern Ukraine, which directly violate commitments made in the Geneva joint statement. We call on Russia to use its influence with these groups to secure the immediate and safe release of all hostages in eastern Ukraine. We have also raised our concerns with Ukrainian officials as they work with local authorities to try to de-escalate the security situation in and around Slavyansk.”’

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.586987

    Ms Nuland and the cohort from the EU led by Ashton have certainly bitten off more than they could chew. A hellhole.

  25. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 9:16 am

    For that same reason Robert Tressell’s great working-class novel “The Ragged-trousered Philanthropists” never gets onto any curricula.

    This is not true

    http://www.markedbyteachers.com/as-and-a-level/english/how-effective-are-robert-tressell-a-a-s-use-of-metaphors-in-a-a-the-ragged-trousered-philanthropists-a-a.html

    There was also a good radio adaption on Radio 4 a couple of years back.

    Given I have direct descendants who were house painters, and active in Labour politics, around the same time the book was written it is a matter of no small interest to me.

  26. An interesting observation of the words of a BBC News presenter in the papers review last night.

    then 13 minutes 30 secs – Martine Croxall ” are we here in the West in danger of believing everything the West tells us and believing nothing that Russia tells us because to many people what’s happening in Ukraine is a Coup – they have overthrown a President who was democratically elected and the interim government hasn’t been. We’re falling into those old traps aren’t we?”

    There was a telling pause then The American panellist who couldn’t quite believe her ears waffled on about rapidly changing circumstances and it being difficult to see.
    Then this ” I agree with you… a street rebellion is not exactly the ideal way to have a transition of power ” says the Evening Standard’s Martin Bentham ” we shouldn’t just topple people we don’t like through undemocratic means if we believe in democracy”

    Has the BiBiC realised that nobody believes their lies any longer and so has decided to throw in the occasional truth to sweeten the pill? Or are we looking at the end of a career or seeing whether the BiBiC treats her like Abby Martin at RT?

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1398479709.html

  27. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 9:36 am

    Some syllabuses e.g. IB give the school/teacher to select some of the books that are taught – this is possible where part of the mark is based on course work. Some teachers do include Tressell’s work – but I would argue against it being made compulsory given that it would be a pretty soul less experience if it were taught by someone who did not believe in its central message.

  28. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 9:57 am

    Mary, Is that you posting on Medialens?

  29. ” Has the BiBiC realised that nobody believes their lies any longer and so has decided to throw in the occasional truth to sweeten the pill? Or are we looking at the end of a career or seeing whether the BiBiC treats her like Abby Martin at RT? ”

    interesting Mary… NEW eh.

  30. Murder in Samerkand was in my local library, which was is how I got to hear of CM.

    Over the years I have been introduced to many great books ideas paths and perceptions of life through public libraries. Some local authorities, including labour ones, have sought to shut libraries arguing (in private or in public) that its only the middle classes who use them and they can afford to buy books – what tosh. Sorry bit off topic, but mentions of libraries above got me going.

    (I am no Maoist but wasn’t the Chairman an assistant librarian; even more off topic but maybe Wes Anderson should make a Young Mao the Librarian biopic.)

  31. Sofia Kibo Noh

    26 Apr, 2014 - 10:34 am

    RD. 9 16am
    Re Robert Tressell’s 1914 book.
    “Given I have direct descendants who were house painters, and active in Labour politics, around the same time the book was written it is a matter of no small interest to me.”
    I always thought there was something a bit disconnected about your posts. Do you still have a physical body? If so, congratulations. If not are you just channelled or are/were you using one of those gravitational time dilation thingys from Amazon to create a singularity from which to share your wisdom?

    Meanwhile back/forward on the info-war front it seems John “You can’t just invade another country on a phoney pretext” Kerry seems to have got a bit agitated about RT. I think you’ll like this one.

    http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_04_25/Kerrys-ignorance-in-RT-blunder-unthinkable-for-Cold-War-era-politician-3264/

  32. RT moaning on recently about how they are labelled as pure propaganada and that although they invite Western mainstream voices on they refuse saying they will not appear on a propaganda station so they are caught in a sort of catch 22. Well they had Lord West on didn’t they, which I admit I though was a bit surprising and you can see how our establishment position makes some sense i.e. because by appearing on the programme to take part in an honest debate they thereby subliminally partially legitimise the station and its message; therefore they prefer to stay clear.

    But this rather absolute position only really makes sense if we and Russia are fundamentally at odds with one another and we are preparing for a cold war, or worse. I don’t think the situation is that bad and suspect that after a lot of chess, theatre posturing on both sides with some loss of life, but not war – unless there are idiots about) there might be some sort of a partition of the Ukraine (i.e. in addition to the Ukraine).

    I like to hear what others think even if it is propaganda, but I prefer dialogue. Unfortunately, it is also true that people tend believe the message which is repeated and which is seen to be associated with those who possess power – but there can’t be that many watching RT in this country, so why do we worry about appearing on it.

  33. Corrected post:

    RT moaning on recently about how they are labelled as pure propaganada and that although they invite Western mainstream voices on they refuse saying they will not appear on a propaganda station so they are caught in a sort of catch 22. Well they had Lord West on didn’t they, which I admit I thought was a bit surprising and you can see how our establishment position makes some sense i.e. because by appearing on the programme to take part in an honest debate they thereby subliminally partially legitimise the station and its message; therefore they prefer to stay clear.

    But this rather absolute position only really makes sense if we and Russia are fundamentally at odds with one another and we are preparing for a cold war, or worse. I don’t think the situation is that bad and suspect that after a lot of chess, theatre posturing on both sides with some loss of life, but not war – unless there are idiots about) there might be some sort of a partition of the Ukraine (i.e. in addition to Crimea).

    I like to hear what others think even if it is propaganda, but I prefer dialogue. Unfortunately, it is also true that people tend believe the message which is repeated and which is seen to be associated with those who possess power – but there can’t be that many watching RT in this country, so why do we worry about appearing on it?

  34. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:15 am

    Very droll Sofia – I of course meant relatives from whom I’m a direct descendant for those who couldn’t work it out.

    Perhaps you could share your thoughts on Putin admitting that he had troops in Crimea all the time – and why we should believe him now when he says that there are none in Eastern Ukraine. But don’t worry I suspect that after his current state of bluster he will eventually come to heel as the West has started to realise that it’s all about the money when it comes to Putin. Even he will not want to see Russian bonds downgraded to junk (just like when he started) and all those nice Japanese banks withdrawing their credit lines.

  35. “I would argue against it being made compulsory given that it would be a pretty soul less experience if it were taught by someone who did not believe in its central message.”

    As you are so proud of your ancestry of painters/decorators, and so you should be, I should be interested to know if you could teach The Ragged-trousered Philanthropists especially the chapter entitled “The Great Money Trick”.

  36. Thanks for the link Sofia to Kerry’s ignorance. As a related matter I am still trying to find out what RD thinks about the legitimacy of the US poking its nose into European affairs through the OSCE, but I’ve only asked four times, so I may still get an answer if I persevere.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/netanyahu-continues-vicious/#comment-454346

  37. Having lived in Uzbekistan I must say that the entire cotton problem is actually more complex that it is presented. True, EU has chosen to pretend this does not exist, focusing instead on a bunch of activists who ended up in a Tashkent prison for running an unregistered political organisation. For some strange reason, these guys are presented as the most burning issue for EU.
    .
    Every year cotton crops bring a substantial part of the country’s budget (around €2 billion). No responsible government would kill this. Every summer, the government announces a big “cotton action” where workers, soldiers, government officers, unemployed, and yes, schoolchildren, all are brought to cotton fields across the country to collect cotton and “build rich Uzbekistan”. High school children, to be precise: you need to be of certain height in order to reach to cotton tree branches.
    .
    Yes, deaths do happen, almost every year, especially on hot days. Dehydration is dangerous.
    .
    Can we call this “slavery”? In my opinion no more than, say, compulsory military service, so common for decades after WW2 but which now is being replaced with a professional military. Similarly, there is an ongoing effort in Uzbekistan to do a better labour mapping during the crop season. Sure it is as slow as everything in Uzbekistan, but I already heard from UNICEF a few years back that a few districts in Uzbekistan had introduced proper labour mapping and avoided getting children to the fields.
    .
    What does the EU or UK do in this respect? As we all know, next to nothing. All the focus is on “the thirteen human rights defenders in Uzbek prisons”. What is needed instead is proper technical cooperation. Development aid. Introduction of mechanical crop collection, for which technology and investment is required, on top of political goodwill on all sides.
    .
    Craig, fingerpointing and whining at Primark will not make a difference, either.
    .
    What the UK government knows and all that game of appearances is also an entirely different story. Luckily, people have already learned not to believe in whatever ministers say.

  38. Sofia Kibo Noh

    26 Apr, 2014 - 12:14 pm

    John.

    RD/ELSO etc is a complex multidimensional multipersonality which runs automatically from a very simple algorythm.

    So far, aside from the occasional glitch, it works quite consistently. However it’s controllers fear that long term exposure to the dreaded Craig Murray blog will, one day make it neccessary to wipe it and start again. The main cause for concern is the overheating of the logic circuitry arising from the problematic “Russian invasion” conundrum. It would be so much easier if there were lots of soldiers, explosions and bodies to point to. Those Russians just can’t be trusted to play by the rules.

    Here’s an image from the future.

    http://punch.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif

  39. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 12:17 pm

    Sofia

    You clearly fell for all that Homo soveticus rubbish – don’t assume that the rest of the world is the same.

  40. what….

    this £34 Billion – PLUS £100or so for Trident…

    How would you spend £34bn? Paying 5000 nurses for their entire career? Funding free university tuition for all students for a decade? Or on wars that promoted terrorism rather than reduced it?

    http://stopwar.org.uk/videos/uk-spent-34bn-on-wars-that-promoted-terrorism-rather-than-reduced-it#.U1uLbYFdXDv

  41. Sofia Kibo Noh

    26 Apr, 2014 - 12:24 pm

    Oops!

    Sorry about that dud link.

    RD/ELSO etc still functioning, but it’s only a matter of time.

    http://punch.photoshelter.com/image/I0000vsmGgLvEMMg

  42. In answer to RD’s interrogative question, No. I do not post on Medialens. I do read the Message Board and the editors’ good essays, which are on this link.

    http://www.medialens.org/

  43. Brian, give me 5,000 nurses any day to Trident!

    Kashmiri, perhaps a bigger problem is that in building “rich Uzbekistan” means the Karimovs can fund their super-rich lifestyles, while rural villagers and their children are slaves to the trade.

    I don’t know if you are aware but there is a story that Islam Karimov is keeping his daughter Gulnara prisoner in the Karimov palace. Does anyone know if this is true? Is she really sneaking out letters like Mary Queen of Scots did from Loch Leven and Tutbury? Or is it more to do with the fact that she’s wanted for money-laundering in Europe?

  44. Kim Petersen the co-editor of Dissident Voice (which I also read regularly) is to be congratulated on this very well reasoned essay.

    False Flags: A Possible Aid to Change?
    by Kim Petersen / April 26th, 2014

    [..]
    What it all boils down to is proper information. If the people properly understood how their world really works, how it has always really worked, seismic changes would become inevitable.

    The process begins with our education system. We are all routinely propagandized about the “greatness, goodness, and graciousness” of our trusted leaders – instead of being taught the dark truths about these awful people, about the treachery, greed, and indifference to mass slaughter that have been their main character traits since the beginning of recorded history. We have an education system that also fails to explain how our supposedly great armies, police and “intelligence” services all aid and abet these same trusted leaders for wholly self-serving reasons; an education system that fails to explain its own part in the corruption of truth, and how the mainstream media continue the brainwashing at the point where schools leave off.

    Perhaps nothing better proves the routine deceit practised by our great trusted leaders, and the vast superstructure of self-interested flunkeys whose parasitic jobs depend on perpetuating the deceit, than the undoubted and widespread use of false flag events. From starting monstrous wars (such as in Vietnam), to maintaining years of state-sponsored terrorism (Northern Ireland); from the “favourite ploys” of so-called intelligence services to the deliberate lying of the mainstream media, the use and promotion of false flags is indisputable. Given that the practice is by nature deceitful, secretive and immoral, as well as being ignored by schoolroom history teachers and the mainstream media, it’s perfectly understandable that so many people remain in the dark about this evil practice.

    We need historians to start digging into the murky past of false flags, and investigative journalists to uncover the false flags that are undoubtedly happening now. These dark and sinister practices need to be exposed to the antiseptic glare of bright sunlight. Real change can only happen once the 99% begin to understand that there is no depth of depravity to which our great trusted leaders will not sink, and nothing better proves this than the ongoing and routine use of false flags.

    http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/04/false-flags-a-possible-aid-to-change/

    ~~~

  45. Sofia Kibo Noh

    26 Apr, 2014 - 12:50 pm

    RD?ELSO etc,

    Here’s a State Department expert at work demonstrating how to deal with inconvenient facts which don’t fit the trut, without blowing a fuse. (1 min)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOnwdmpButo

    Next question please.

  46. Kashmiri

    I rather doubt your expertise. The cotton shrubs in Uzbekistan grow no higher than three feet, four max. Eight year olds can pick them. I have actually been into the field to give it a try and learn the conditions for myself. Plainly you have not.

    Interesting contention that it is no more slavery than compulsory military service. That is, however, not generally visited upon small schoolchildren. I think slavery is appropriate because the workers are paid little or nothing, and a very large amount of cash is made by the oligarchs out of their forced labour. This point is ignored by your analysis – the money doesn’t go to maintain a socialist state, it goes into billionaires’ pockets.

    That is why, in 13 years of independence, there has been no move away from the cotton monoculture to an agriculture that provides sustenance for the ordinary people. If you really know Uzbekistan, you will know what you write about technical cooperation and mechanization is nonsense. The agriculture was mechanized – in Soviet times most of the cotton was picked by machine. Nowadays almost none is because the oligarchs realized that free forced labour was cheaper than buying and maintaining cotton harvesters.

    Finally there is an absolutely desperate requirement on environmental grounds to move out of the cotton monoculture.

  47. Sofia Kibo Noh

    26 Apr, 2014 - 12:52 pm

    “Trut” …Hah! Try “reality”

  48. John

    I have not commented on the situation with Gulnara because I have been consulting lawyers over legal action against her. But this is my brief analysis:

    a) Karimov is still in office but no longer in power. That now lies with Mirzayev and Innayatov

    b) They are keeping her in detention to avoid embarrassing lawsuits against her in Europe. Various oligarchs – Mirzaeyev, Innoyatov, Azimov, Usmanov – have regained commercial monopolies she had wrested from them

    c) The conditions of her detention are less arduous than she is making out – I am sure they didn’t have her beaten up then hand her mobile phone back to tweet about it

    d) Obviously, her detention is unlawful and I am very worried they will remove the potential embarrassment by “suiciding” her. She ought to be dealt with properly by courts, both in Uzbekistan and relating to the investigations in Sweden, Switzerland, France etc.

  49. Craig, thanks very much for that summary. I somewhat suspected b) but was not aware that Mirzayev and the other oligarchs were controlling the Karimovs. Agree with d). There is too much extra-judicial action in the world today. Good luck with the legal action.

  50. You know these OSCE monitors that all the press are saying have been detained…

    http://news.sky.com/story/1249660/ukraine-observers-to-be-used-as-human-shield

    Eight members of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) were travelling with five Ukrainian troops when they were detained by separatists in the flashpoint town of Slavyansk.

    Well turns out they aren’t OSCE monitors according to the OSCE but an independent German led team
    https://twitter.com/OSCE

    OSCE ‏@OSCE 20h
    4/4 Military verification team sent following invitation from Ukraine under terms of Vienna Document 2011
    Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
    OSCE ‏@OSCE 20h
    3/4 Military verification team – led by Germans – and composed of 8 members – 4 Germans, 1 Czech, 1 Danish, 1 Polish, 1 Swedish
    Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
    OSCE ‏@OSCE 20h
    2/4 All members of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission and OSCE/ODIHR election observers are safe and accounted for
    Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
    OSCE ‏@OSCE 20h
    1/4 Comms with military observers in Donetsk region lost.Team not OSCE monitors but sent by States under Vienna Doc on military transparency
    Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
    OSCE ‏@OSCE 20h

    Not to say they shouldn’t be released in any case. For what it is worth, RT reports that Russia is attempting to get the team freed.

  51. Oh no, not Usmanov’s fingers in the pie again.

    ‘In the world of Uzbek politics, family ties are never far from the surface. Prime Minister Shavkat Mirzayev, another leading contender for succession, is seen as having Moscow’s backing after his nephew last October married the niece of Russia’s richest man, Alisher Usmanov, who is of Uzbek origin and close to the Kremlin.

    “That was a good alliance,” said Ms. Tulaganova, the Uzbek opposition journalist.’
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/world/asia/rumors-set-off-succession-debate-in-uzbekistan.html?_r=0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavkat_Mirziyoyev

    Is the other one mentioned here?

    ‘The person behind the attack is probably the chief of the Uzbek National Security Service (SNB) Rustam Inoyatov.’
    http://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/analyses/2013-11-06/political-crisis-uzbekistan

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rustam_Inoyatov

    Be very afraid.

  52. More lives lost and families wrecked. Will the wars ever end?

    Breaking news.

    Crash victims feared to be British
    Five military personnel killed when the UK helicopter they were travelling in crashed in southern Afghanistan are feared to be British.

  53. http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/simon-ostrovsky/#comment-454359

    I noticed that the name of the author on the article about False Flags on the above comment has been corrected. It was written by John Andrews and not by Kim Petersen, the editor of the blog.

    False Flags: A Possible Aid to Change?
    April 26th, 2014 by John Andrews
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/04/false-flags-a-possible-aid-to-change/

  54. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Apr, 2014 - 6:01 pm

    From a Continental French language newspaper yesterday (my translation):

    “Israel suspends the peace process.

    ………..Finally, a Fatah heavyweight Jibril Rajoub declared that he was “confident that the peace talks would continue because Hamas has changed and accepts the existence of Israel within its pre-Six Day War borders (June 1967). An affirmation denied by the Hamas spokesman in Gaza, Issam El Bardawil, according to whom his organization “will never accept the Zionist entity, will not deal with it and will not be part of a government which will accept it.”……..”

    *********************

    Any comments on the Hamas spokesman’s utterance?

  55. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 6:04 pm

    Craig

    Any speculation on who is backing the oligarch’s who I suspect have friendly relations with Moscow?

  56. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 6:08 pm

    “In answer to RD’s interrogative question, No. I do not post on Medialens.”

    Well that does surprise me!

  57. Why does it surprise you? Suggest you mind your own business in future.

  58. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Apr, 2014 - 7:22 pm

    Mary

    Probably because Resident Dissident thinks you’re the sort of person who wouldn’t be able to resist posting on Medialens?

    BTW, the business of anyone who posts on the net inevitably becomes, to some extent, the business of all the readers. Up to and including brown hens that no longer lay and the orientation of one’s bedroom :)

  59. Craig,

    I do not doubt your expertise, however I am worried that your writings are slightly biased. Not sure if your personal vendetta against Karimov might play into this? The point with oligarchs making money of cheap/free labour is a valid one, but please, is that anything unique to Uzbekistan? Still, a substantial amount of this money goes to state budget anyway. I bet a higher proportion than Starbucks in the UK (Google how Starbucks exploits labourers).

    How ever I hate corporations, nether me nor you can stop their owners from getting rich. The suffering Interesting, however, that Western corporations have “principal shareholders” and “CEO-s” and Eastern corporations are run by “oligarchs”.

    As to poverty, your playing an emotional string is unjust. I didn’t have a chance to make a comparison personally, but an officer with an international organisation with long regional experience told me that as much as Uzbek villages are poor, there was never *that* level of poverty as, say, in “democratic” Kazakhstan. Which I find plausible, having seen villages both in Uzbekistan and in “democratic” Kyrgyzstan.

    This is not to say Uzbek villages are not poor. It’s only you are blowing the matter out of proportion. Uzbekistan villages do not have to be richer than average for the region.

    Your saying that the cotton exports do not support the state budget is nonsense. Tell me where does the Uzbek state budget is funded from? Hint: not from personal tax, because official salaries are minimal; nor from business taxes because businesses are only emerging in Uzbekistan.

    So-called “technical cooperation” is one way of exerting pressure for political or economic gains, some institutions, like World Bank for example, have truly mastered this method. Your discounting it is based on…?

    As to Gulnara, unfortunately I have no information apart from what is published. But I am afraid with her detention Gazprom has lost (temporarily?) direct access to one of their focal persons in Uzbekistan.

  60. Habbabkuk 6-01pm

    All organisation’s have policies and under close inspection, I imagine I wouldn’t be rushing to align myself with Hamas. So far as Israel goes, it doesn’t need any inspection at all, their actions speak much more than the condemning words of the Hamas charter. A brief look at the changing map of Palestine over the last 50 or 60 years tells it own story. Should they just allow Israel to steam roll over the fragmented remnants of a state (and getting smaller by the day)? Do you find it more acceptable for people to ignore you or would you rather they deprive you of water or electric?
    Who can blame Hamas for wishing the Zionist entity gone? Perhaps if Israel stopped provoking them when they aren’t firing rockets, they would be prepared to stop the cycle of violence.
    Then of course there is the deliberately strangled economy in order to stop the Palestinians from prospering, the check points to stop them living a normal life and the constant threat of a snipers bullet. If Israel were a neighbour of my country, I’d wish them gone too.

  61. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Apr, 2014 - 8:53 pm

    Andy

    You make a couple of fair points. But consider the following, against the background of Abba Eban’s remark that “the Palestinians (or it may have been “the Arabs”?) never lose an opportunity to lose an opportunity”:

    1/.Hamas or no Hamas, Israel is not going to go away. To think otherwise is illusory.

    2/. Hamas provides a wonderful alibi for Israeli govts before the court of third party opinion.

    3/. There was no Israeli expansionism (and no convenient excuse for it)between 1948/9 and the Six Day War, the latter having started with an attack by the neigbouring Arab states against Israel and not the other way round. A grave mistake for which the Palestinians (but not the Arab states concerned) are paying the bill.

  62. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Apr, 2014 - 8:58 pm

    Andy

    I also refer you back to remarks I made in the past on the shared responsibility of the govt of Jordan for the non-establishment of a Palestinian state between 1948/9 and 1967. The Jordanian approach was typical of the sort of illusory thinking which is evident in the Hamas attitude today.

  63. Ben-This House has not be cleared

    26 Apr, 2014 - 9:49 pm

    ” “will never accept the Zionist entity, will not deal with it and will not be part of a government which will accept it.”……..”

    Why should they accept a Zionist vision? I certainly don’t and i suspect a bare minority on this blog would accept mirror-image nazisim for any role in World affairs, other than charitable giving.

  64. Craig, I have known Simon Ostrovsky for years and agree completely that he is an excellent, honest, and brave journalist and person. And obviously not a spy as alleged by the thuggish “mayor” of Slovyansk and suggested as a possibility by commenter Mary above. Regarding editorial control over the Newsnight piece, I think the likelihood of Newsnight giving editorial control of the in-studio follow-up discusion to a 26-year-old nobody stringer is precisely zero.

  65. Resident Dissident (11.13am): “Perhaps you could share your thoughts on Putin admitting that he had troops in Crimea all the time – and why we should believe him now when he says that there are none in Eastern Ukraine.”

    Before it annexed Crimea, the Russian government issued the following statement about its military presence there:

    1) A Russian naval presence in Crimea dates to 1783 when the port city of Sevastopol was founded by Russian Prince Grigory Potemkin. Crimea was part of Russia until Nikita Khruschev gave it to Ukraine in 1954.

    2) In 1997, amid the wreckage of the USSR, Russia & Ukraine signed a Partition Treaty determining the fate of the military bases and vessels in Crimea. The deal sparked widespread officer ‘defections’ to Russia and was ratified by the Russian & Ukrainian parliaments in 1999. Russia received 81.7 percent of the fleet’s ships after paying the Ukrainian government US$526.5 million.

    3) The deal allowed the Russian Black Sea Fleet to stay in Crimea until 2017. This was extended by another 25 years to 2042 with a 5-year extension option in 2010.

    4) Moscow annually writes off $97.75 million of Kiev’s debt for the right to use Ukrainian waters and radio frequencies, and to compensate for the Black Sea Fleet’s environmental impact.

    5) The Russian navy is allowed up to
    – 25,000 troops,
    – 24 artillery systems with a caliber smaller than 100 mm,
    – 132 armored vehicles, and
    – 22 military planes, on Crimean territory.

    6) Five Russian naval units are stationed in the port city of Sevastopol, in compliance with the treaty:

    – The 30th Surface Ship Division formed by the 11th Antisubmarine Ship Brigade. Comprises the Black Sea Fleet’s flagship guard missile cruiser Moskva as well as Kerch, Ochakov, Smetlivy, Ladny, and Pytlivy vessels, and the 197th Landing Ship Brigade, consisting of seven large amphibious vessels;

    – The 41st Missile Boat Brigade includes the 166th Fast Attack Craft Division, consisting of Bora and Samum hovercrafts as well as small missile ships Mirazh and Shtil, and 295th missile Boat Division;

    – The 247th Separate Submarine Division, consisting of two diesel submarines – B-871 Alrosa and B-380 Svyatoy Knyaz Georgy;

    – The 68th Harbor Defense Ship Brigade formed by 4 vessels of the 400th Antisubmarine Ship Battalion and 418 Mine Hunting Ship Division respectively.;

    – The 422nd Separate Hydrographic Ship Division boasts the Cheleken, Stvor, Donuzlav and GS-402 survey vessels and hydrographic boats.

    7) Russia has two airbases in Crimea, in Kacha and Gvardeysky.

    8) Russian coastal forces in Ukraine consist of the 1096th Separate Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment in Sevastopol and the 810th Marine Brigade, which hosts around 2,000 marines.

    9) Russian naval units are permitted to implement security measures at their permanent post as well as during re-deployments in cooperation with Ukrainian forces, in accordance with Russia’s armed forces procedures.

    Source: rt.com (March 4, 2014)

    You’re welcome.

  66. How will this 6 year old Palestinian child grow up to view his Israeli neighbours? Such is the IDF treatment of a child who had thrown a few pebbles. In Hebron where the settlers make the Palestinians’ lives a misery.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTxJb-HLp70

    One of the settlers hassled the member of the ISM who had intervened to protect the child.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLKWWwTWjvc

    The ISM homepage below is full of such incidents. From the dark side of a dark planet the Luciferans come. A child is reduced to a source of an illusory threat. His pebbles versus their Hellfire missiles.

    http://palsolidarity.org/

  67. Laurent Correcting your remark. I posted links to three articles and suggested that readers make up their own minds. One from the Guardian, one from RT and one from Ha’aretz. OK?

  68. This from the BBC website about those observers being held. Hope that nothing is read into this comment.

    Russia ‘to help free Ukraine group’
    Moscow offers to help free European military observers held in Ukraine by pro-Russia activists, as EU states plan new sanctions on Russia.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27172111

  69. Ben-This House has not be cleared

    26 Apr, 2014 - 10:24 pm

    ” His pebbles versus their Hellfire missiles.”

    It’s a proportionate response according to our resident adolescents, Mary.

    Of course, our teen-aged mental giants have never faced IDF armor.

  70. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 10:38 pm

    Andy

    Putin was talking about the troops in unmarked uniforms – not those on their military bases – he had previously denied that those in unmarked uniforms were Russian troops. I suspect you know this all too well.

  71. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 10:43 pm

    @Mary

    “Suggest you mind your own business in future.”

    Perhaps I shall follow the same standard that you set in this regard

  72. Ben-This House has not be cleared

    26 Apr, 2014 - 10:54 pm

    http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/losing-game-america’s-postwar-arabists

    “Nonetheless, Wilford is persuasive in arguing that the solidification of the alliance between Israel and the United States made America’s position in the Middle East far worse than it need have been. The US could have kept Israel from being affiliated with the Soviet Union while avoiding a relationship with it that has removed all flexibility in crafting policy. A more nuanced position would not have eliminated hostility to the United States in the region, but it certainly would have reduced it. “The Arabist defeats of the Eisenhower era established the basic pattern of US relations with the Middle East in the years that followed,”

    Of course, JF Dulles was an antisemite.

  73. Before the trolls rush in on the attack, I did make this comment on an earlier thread yesterday morning.

    Interesting that the “journalist” (?) kidnapped by the nationalists in eastern Ukraine as being suspicious has dual US-Israeli citizenship. Another mega mmmmm!

    US journalist released by pro-Russian gunmen in Ukraine, Vice confirms
    Simon Ostrovsky was held hostage in eastern Ukraine by armed separatists, who accused him of spying for enemy groups
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/us-journalist-simon-ostrovsky-released-ukraine

    Murdoch has a 5% stake in VICE for whom Ostrovsky works.
    http://www.vice.com/en_uk

    whereupon ‘Jemand’ went ballistic and filled the comment box with multiple letter Ms. It’s a wonder his letter M key didn’t burn out.

    It is natural to assume that not everyone is the person they say they are. We have numerous examples of Mossad operatives in other guises at work and we have seen the lies and disinformation spread in Syria, even by BBC journalists. Suspicion is a natural consequence.

    Anyway I am glad that you Laurent and Craig vouch for Mr Ostrovsky’s credentials. I am just sorry that he works for an organisation with a connection to Murdoch, although minimal.

  74. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:00 pm

    “Of course, our teen-aged mental giants have never faced IDF armor.”
    __________________

    In the same way that you, Ben, have never faced a suicide bomber or a home-made but potentially lethal rocket fired in your general direction.

  75. Ben-This House has not be cleared

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:04 pm

    I have faced ‘bottle-rockets’ on the 4th of July. Katyushas have a similar punch, but are less accurate.

  76. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:07 pm

    “” “will never accept the Zionist entity, will not deal with it and will not be part of a government which will accept it.”……..”

    Why should they accept a Zionist vision? I certainly don’t”
    _______________

    1/. Who cares what you would accept? You’re just a Californian wind-bag whose views are as unimportant as they are ill-founded.

    2/. You know as well as anyone that “Zionist entity” is the expression of choice for those who cannot bear to let the word “Israel” pass their lips. I believe that Mary has on occasion used that expression, by the way. For the Jew haters and Israel haters, Zionist entity = Israel.

  77. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:10 pm

    “I have faced ‘bottle-rockets’ on the 4th of July. Katyushas have a similar punch, but are less accurate.”
    __________________

    A very stupid and facetious reply, Ben. Go and smoke another one.

  78. Ben-This House has not be cleared

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:14 pm

    “Zionist entity = Israel.”

    That’s your own definition. It has nothing to do with facts; just your opinion.

    Now if the Israeli electorate enables the Zionist tail to wag the Israel dog, then it appears they are culpable; just as Americans who are content to shift their responsibility and surrender their judgment to Obama, so too Israelis who sleep soundly while their Leaders fiddle, should accept their complacency as a form of agreement.

  79. Yes correct. ‘Zionist entity’. That gets the Zionist supporters going. ‘Entity’ because it is not a state, has no borders and knows no international law(s).

  80. Ben-Don't Bogart that Joint, Havasack

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:20 pm

    “facetious” For you is wishes of self-awareness, but as they say, ‘wish in one hand…’

  81. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:25 pm

    ““Zionist entity = Israel.”

    That’s your own definition.”
    _______________

    Incorrect. I’ll say it again : it’s the expression people (eg Hamas in the real world, Mary in her blog-world) use when they can’t bear to use the word “Israel”.

    (@ Mary – the word gets me going a lot less than the existence of Israel seems to exercise you)

  82. Ben-Don't Bogart that Joint, Havasack

    26 Apr, 2014 - 11:27 pm

    Correction; rather than ‘definition’ it’s more like your own ‘inference’.

    Mebbe you should clear your ears of cheese wax.

  83. Kelly ben Maimon

    27 Apr, 2014 - 12:04 am

    John Goss 26 April, 2014 – 8.01am

    Apologies for slight diversion from thread topic.

    Thanks for ISBN John,

    Will try and locate a copy this week.

    Whereas, often found falling asleep looking at other blogs, listening to speeches etc, in presence of my friends. Although, fully alert here, (when I get an opportunity to look) because comments are so amusing, with folk pressing particular agendas. Equally fascinating is the variety of topics and quality of commentary.

  84. Kelly ben Maimon

    27 Apr, 2014 - 12:21 am

    Correction, need to omit “although” above. Have always suspected one could be dyslexic. Think I’ll stick to reading posts. Hilarious and thought provoking, at times.

  85. Ben….Ya wee Rocket Dodging ninja

    sounds better than trying to dodge the sky falling

    or that would be White phosphorus

  86. Habbabkuk n Res Diss.

    Just stop your sock-puppetry will ya please?

    Ridiculous nonsense the pair of yeez yeah?

  87. Sofia Kibo Noh

    27 Apr, 2014 - 7:51 am

    Daniel. 10 53pm

    “Cross Yell.”

    Mark Levine, self-styled “agressive progressive” and master debater. LOL.

    Thanks.

  88. Sofia Kibo Noh

    27 Apr, 2014 - 9:14 am

    Rising star Jen Psaki, explains State Department’s nuanced attitude to press freedom in the US.

    Those who fear reading from Russia’s “Propaganda Bullhorn” can just watch the clip and get it out of the horse’s mouth.*

    http://rt.com/usa/155124-press-freedom-violations-us/

    *No horses were used in the making of this comment.
    No offense to horses was intended.
    Fact: Real horses don’t talk bullshit.

  89. There’s no stopping him. I thought he would be in Rome watching all those old men in frocks.

    This Sunday on Meet The Press:

    http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2014_17/401891/blair_3246d0a6f84dae2df3de59d5deea8bd7.nbcnews-ux-600-600.jpg

    EXCLUSIVE: Tony Blair

    U.S. soldiers arrived in Poland on Wednesday as part of an effort to reassure European allies worried about Russian troops posted on the Ukrainian border. What’s President Obama’s next move in the dance with Russian President Putin as the deal between Ukraine, Russia, the European Union, and the U.S. looks to be falling apart. David Gregory talks with former British Prime Minister Tony Blair about the President’s approach to foreign policy and how to tackle Islamic extremism, which Blair believes is the biggest threat facing the world.
    http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/meet-the-press-24-7/sunday-mtp-view-white-house-tony-blair-more-n90076

  90. A meteoric rise to power for Psaki.

    Throughout the 2008 presidential campaign of U.S. Senator Barack Obama, Psaki served as traveling press secretary. After Obama won the election, Psaki followed Obama to the White House as Deputy Press Secretary and was promoted to Deputy Communications Director on December 19, 2009. On September 22, 2011, Psaki left that position to become senior vice president and managing director at the Washington, D.C. office of public relations firm Global Strategy Group.

    In 2012, Psaki returned to political communications as press secretary for President Obama’s 2012 re-election campaign. On February 11, 2013, Psaki became spokesperson for the United States Department of State. Her hiring at the Department of State has fueled speculation that she is likely to replace White House Press Secretary Jay Carney when he leaves the White House

    At the age of 33, she heads the PR outfit, Global Security Group. Look at the client list of individuals and corporations.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Strategy_Group

    Then back to Obama. Where next Jen?

  91. Sofia Kibo Noh

    27 Apr, 2014 - 10:24 am

    Mary.

    “Where next Jen?”

    If you like this kind of black comedy there’s plenty more on youtube.

    Jen Psaki PR genius, some favourite phrases,

    “We don’t see how it’s possibly true…

    I want to be as transparent as possible…

    I don’t think I need to go into more detail from here…

    I have no more for you on this…

    Er… Ah…

    I think we’re ready to move on.

    Next question”

  92. ‘There was no Israeli expansionism (and no convenient excuse for it)between 1948/9 and the Six Day War’

    Israeli expansionism was alive and well in the mind of Ben Gurion at the time of Suez, Habba; only the failure of that escapade postponed its realization-

    ‘Ben-Gurion opened the discussion by listing his military, political and moral considerations against ‘the English plan’. His main objection was that Israel would be branded as the aggressor while Britain and France would pose as peace-makers but he was also exceedingly apprehensive about exposing Israeli cities to attack by the Egyptian Air Force. Instead he presented a comprehensive plan, which he himself called ‘fantastic’, for the reorganization of the Middle East. Jordan, he observed, was not viable as an independent state and should therefore be divided. Iraq would get the East Bank in return for a promise to settle the Palestinian refugees there and to make peace with Israel while the West Bank would be attached to Israel as a semi-autonomous region. Lebanon suffered from having a large Muslim population which was concentrated in the south. The problem could be solved by Israel’s expansion up to the Litani River, thereby helping to turn Lebanon into a more compact Christian state. The Suez Canal area should be given an international status while the Straits of Tiran in the Gulf of Aqaba should come under Israeli control to ensure freedom of navigation.’

    Avi Shlaim’s monograph on the Sevres Protocol,and the discussions that preceded it, can be found it full here-

    http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%20Protocol%20of%20Sevres%201956%20Anatomy%20of%20a%20War%20Plot.html

  93. It is heartening to be in the company of John Pilger over the crisis in Ukraine. It is doubtful even the best journalists in the world can penetrate some skulls and numbskulls who promote US propaganda as fact on this hallowed blog.

    “In February, the US mounted one of its proxy “colour” coups against the elected government of Ukraine; the shock troops were fascists. For the first time since 1945, a pro-Nazi, openly antisemitic party controls key areas of state power in a European capital. No western European leader has condemned this revival of fascism on the border of Russia. Some 30 million Russians died in the invasion of their country by Hitler’s Nazis, who were supported by the infamous Ukrainian Insurgent Army (the UPA) which was responsible for numerous Jewish and Polish massacres. The Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists, of which the UPA was the military wing, inspires today’s Svoboda party.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/17/nato-ukraine-dr-strangelove-china-us

  94. doug scorgie

    27 Apr, 2014 - 6:38 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    26 Apr, 2014 – 6:01 pm

    “From a Continental French language newspaper yesterday (my translation)…”

    Come on Habbabkuk, give us the title of the newspaper and the link.

    Then we can check it for ourselves.

  95. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    27 Apr, 2014 - 7:39 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    Don’t fret, it’s a true translation and I didn’t make up or abridge the excerpt I furnished.

    Any comments on the position of the Hamas spokesman?

  96. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    27 Apr, 2014 - 7:42 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    I’ll give it again in case you’ve forgottten it and couldn’t “be arsed to look it up”:

    ““Israel suspends the peace process.

    ………..Finally, a Fatah heavyweight Jibril Rajoub declared that he was “confident that the peace talks would continue because Hamas has changed and accepts the existence of Israel within its pre-Six Day War borders (June 1967). An affirmation denied by the Hamas spokesman in Gaza, Issam El Bardawil, according to whom his organization “will never accept the Zionist entity, will not deal with it and will not be part of a government which will accept it.”……..”

  97. Resident Dissident

    27 Apr, 2014 - 8:19 pm

    “In February, the US mounted one of its proxy “colour” coups against the elected government of Ukraine; the shock troops were fascists.”

    Yep all the colour coups were US mounted coups and only fascists were behind the change in the Ukraine – and it must be true because John Pilger and John Goss say so. And Putin is a good guy and a bastion against the evil US, its puppets in the UK and the EU and behind it all the Rothschilds pulling the strings. 9/11, 7/7, Malaysian Airlines flight 310 and possibly the Korean Ferry were false flag operations, there is no such thing as an Islamist terrorist, Bashar, Ghadaffi and Saddam were all wonderful people who would hurt a fly etc. etc. etc. And anyone who says otherwise is a skull or a numskull.

    Anything else you would like to add to your political philosophy John Goss (aged 67 and three quarters)

  98. “it must be true because John Pilger and John Goss say so.”

    At last a semblance of sense. My crest rises to be named alongside the man who took on Distillers over thalidomide on behalf of the victims.

    Gaddafi was killed as a process of the land and natural resources grab of your heroes with a bayonet up his backside which probably caused a lot of pain and involuntary soiling, as your friend who tacitly supports torture would like to see happen to me. Your allies across the Atlantic could not abide seeing a country that was successful and served its people succeed, nor its leader have a fair trial, any more than Saddam Hussein, because extra-judicial justice is the way of the Yanks and its allies. Instead they have turned Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya into failed states. These are the people supporting your NAZI friends running the illegal interim government based in Kiev.

  99. And another thing, RD, if you really cared for the descendants of your in-laws still living in Ukraine you would not want to see it turned into a failed state. It is not Russia that has been causing failed states but the United ‘failed state’ of America and its NATO allies.

  100. Resident Dissident

    27 Apr, 2014 - 9:11 pm

    John Goss

    My in laws live in Russia, hence my rather better understanding than yourself of the game that Putin is playing. I have no Nazi friends. You are just plain ignorant and driven by prejudice, especially if you really believe that Ghaddafi and Saddam managed successful states that served their people- we could talk about the Ba’athists links to Nazism if you were up to it.

    You still haven’t answered by questions on the previous draft – 4th request.

  101. “My in laws live in Russia, hence my rather better understanding than yourself of the game that Putin is playing.”

    It’s no criterion where you live. You live in the UK and have no idea what’s going on here or abroad as far as I can see. Anyway, if your in-laws live in Russia they are very much in a minority because 80% of Russians are right behind Putin, but I guess the referendum in Crimea was fixed too. Your ignorance on Crimea and the troops already stationed there, along with some reporters of the MSM, have been adequately exposed by Sofia, but you choose to keep your head in the sand.

  102. Resident Dissident

    27 Apr, 2014 - 9:41 pm

    “Your ignorance on Crimea and the troops already stationed there, along with some reporters of the MSM, have been adequately exposed by Sofia, but you choose to keep your head in the sand.”

    Where? – especially bearing in mind that Putin announced earlier this week that the troops in balaclavas without insignia in the Crimea were Russian troops – a complete contradiction of his earlier lies.

    And what was happening to Putin’s popularity in Russia before he whipped up his latest nationalist storm?

    The referendum result in the Crimea was clearly fixed – although I have no doubt that the vote would have been won by Putin without having resorting to do so – but old habits die hard.

    You have no shame whatsoever – and you still haven’t answered my questions – 5th request.

  103. Resident Dissident

    27 Apr, 2014 - 9:49 pm

    Little quiz for our resident ersatz socialists. Who said:

    “Our society must understand that a minority – a certain category of people – must be paid very well by the state, so they can secure the living standards for the majority. When will we finally understand this? Our people aren’t stupid. It just hasn’t been explained the right way”

  104. “Where? – especially bearing in mind that Putin announced earlier this week that the troops in balaclavas without insignia in the Crimea were Russian troops – a complete contradiction of his earlier lies.”

    Sorry, don’t understand this without a link. Nor this.

    “You have no shame whatsoever – and you still haven’t answered my questions – 5th request.”

  105. Somewhat off topic, but I think the US could teach Birmingham a thing or two about how to demolish high-rise structures. Not often I have much praise for the Yanks. But they certainly got the twin towers right.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27179021

  106. I ought to add that although the Aston University tower fell rather askew, at least they had emptied it first – so something in their favour.

  107. Resident Dissident

    27 Apr, 2014 - 10:43 pm

    Rather sick disgusting joke from Mr Goss.

  108. If it was a joke, RD, I would have put a smiley face after it. :)

  109. Some journalists who supported the Iraq war regret how they reported it.

    http://www.newsweek.com/newsweek-rewind-war-iraq-11-years-later-232584

    ‘As for that master narrative? Now it’s apparent, he says: “It was a complete fiasco.”

    “It was one of the greatest disasters in American history,” he added.’

    “I was fortunate that exhaustion and journalistic burnout,” Liu said, “had shielded me from the big lie of the Iraq war.”

  110. Sofia Kibo Noh

    27 Apr, 2014 - 11:45 pm

    RD/ELSO etc

    “My in laws live in Russia, hence my rather better understanding than yourself (John) of the game that Putin is playing.”

    Some images here of the human cost of the gift of US intervention.

    You don’t like those in laws very much do you?

  111. Sofia Kibo Noh

    27 Apr, 2014 - 11:53 pm

    RD/ELSO etc

    Since you brought up your family links to Russia I’ll ask you again. You disappeared last time I asked.

    How do you explain the differing outcomes in terms of numbers of dead and injured, amounts of high explosives detonated and subsequent social order and cost to their own tax-payers when the US helps to spread democracy and bring freedom in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any of the dozens of other lucky countries that have rerceived the gift of US help compared to the disgraceful and illegal, bloodless “Russian Invasion” of Crimea?

    It’s easy to moan about Putin (Prince of Darkness) and denigrate other posters here but just imagine for a moment you have family in a place, which kind of help would you really choose? And why?

  112. Sofia, perhaps ESLO will help RD out if he’s struggling for an answer.

  113. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    28 Apr, 2014 - 8:40 am

    Mr Goss

    “…as your friend who tacitly supports torture would like to see happen to me.”
    ___________________

    It’s all very Stalinist, isn’t it.

    Despite repeated requests for him to do so, Mr John (“Sorry, don’t understand this without a link”) Goss still hasn’t furnished a quotation to back up his claim that I support torture. Instead, he now extends the accusation to saying that I should like to see him tortured. I must, therefore, ask him to provide quotations backing up that new claim as well as the old one.

    ******************

    “Life has become better, life has become merrier!” (J. Stalin, ca. 1934)

  114. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    28 Apr, 2014 - 8:44 am

    Mr Goss

    “– and you still haven’t answered my questions – 5th request.”
    _________________

    And a 2nd request from me that you should finally answer Resident Dissident’s questions.

    C’mon, Mr Goss – you can use Habbabreak as an excuse for ignoring my questions, but I see that you’re not using it for Resident Dissident’s posts. So where are your answers?

  115. Sofia Kibo Noh

    28 Apr, 2014 - 10:33 am

    John.

    I must be a magician!

    Here is my spell to make RD/ELSO etc disappear… “Just imagine for a moment you have family in a place, which kind of help would you really choose?”

    I know I posted it before but I think this cartoon is worth a thousand words.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhzN4VTCcAA4ycQ.jpg

  116. Sofia, and all done without using Habbabreak, which really is a useful tool to deal with a useless fool.

  117. Sofia, in years to come, when we’ve all moved on the historians will be illustrating their histories with cartoons like that one depicting the ghost of Old Father Time as Uncle Sam, having cut down the good and bad of all nations until it came to confront the Big Brown Bear protecting Ukraine.

  118. John Goss,
    it is amusing how BBC has been lately digging into problems relating to demolitions of high rise buildings. Few days ago, I listened to the BBC world service radio about skyscrapers in the middle east and elsewhere where the presenter opined how incredibly difficult it will be to demolish them and believe it or not that their construction is as expensive as any attempt “to pull” them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p34XrI2Fm6I) to use Silverstein’s vocabulary. I felt like writing them a letter with a suggestion to use two airplanes to effortlessly knock down two plus one, the third at no extra cost. Those facing such problems could ask the golden boy Larry Silverstein to be their adviser and split the money from the insurance. Perhaps Halibabacus or other dissidents should write to the BBC pointing out this simple and ecological option, rather than wasting their time barking at innocent souls of this blog.

  119. Ba'al Zevul (soy Marxista de tendencia Groucho)

    28 Apr, 2014 - 2:13 pm

    High school children, to be precise: you need to be of certain height in order to reach to cotton tree branches.

    ‘Oh the buzzing of the bees
    In the cigarette trees
    And the soda water fountains….’

    What Craig said. It’s not so long ago, btw, that Scottish schools would close for the tattie howkin’ (Eng: potato harvest), and I’ve seen Turkish kids picking cotton…but not off trees. In the absence of machinery, people are all you’ve got, and the time window is short for cotton. It’s not so much what they do, in Uzbekistan, I suspect, but the way that they do it.

  120. Mayor of Kharkov shot (in back) and fighting for his life.

    “Russia, for its part, does not fully recognize the post-coup Kiev government as legal. Moscow stressed that it is using diplomacy and its influence to advise protest leaders and self-defense forces in southeastern Ukraine not to use violence.

    Meanwhile, the US-backed government in Kiev has neither disarmed the neo-Nazi Pravy Sector or radicals of the Svoboda party, nor has it disarmed the UNA-UNSO. Protesters in southeastern Ukraine are afraid of the perspective of not being able to defend themselves. The situation has been aggravated and exploded in bloodshed when Kiev deployed over 11.000 heavily armed troops to the region.”

    http://nsnbc.me/2014/04/28/obama-administration-announced-additional-sanctions-against-russia/

  121. Back in March, Soros said:

    George Soros Predicts Ukraine Could Ruin The EU
    The billionaire financier says in its tepid response to Russia’s Crimea land grab, the EU flubbed a key chance to breathe new life into the stale union
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/14/george-soros-predicts-ukraine-could-ruin-the-eu.html

    George Soros is the power and money behind many ‘alternative’ media stations that are pushing Government’s agendas.

    He funds and is actively pushing Agenda 21 and pro-Government agenda activists and sets in place many co-intel operations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros – The ‘official’ version.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soros_Foundation : ….” However, his critics point out that “[In] 2010, tax records show that Soros, a convicted inside trader … deployed grantees from his Open Society Foundations to lobby for and acquire federal contracts for job training, green energy, and community redevelopment programs.” By employing such coordinated activities, critics aver, Soros “advanced his agenda for “green economics”, open borders, and increased government handouts.””[5]

    Organizations Funded Directly by George Soros and his Open Society Institute
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/Organizations%20Funded%20Directly5.htm

    The list is extremely long.

  122. I meant to add that he seems to be a contradiction in terms.

  123. George Soros seems like a good bedfellow for Tony Blair. Both accused, though deny, of being involved in the grab of African mineral grabs. As everybody knows Blair’s financial dealings are so complex nobody understands where the money comes in. But it keeps coming in.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fa169b18-2802-11e2-ac7f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz30GAuGDPK

    One of the aims of those who own governments is to make sure that whoever gets to power they are still in charge.

  124. Karel, thanks for the comment and link. Sorry I meant to respond before now.

  125. John Goss,

    no apologies needed. I hope that you found it amusing. The Beeb must be run by idiots, as the controllers fail to see the wider implications of what they broadcast. Propaganda must be consistent and well controlled,otherwise it is just laughable.

  126. Karel I would find it a lot more amusing if it was not so real and evident that 9/11 was an inside job.

  127. Did anyone know that Poland trained the rebels who opened fire on the Maidan backed by US funding?

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/polands-hand-in-ukraine-coup-detat-trained-putchists-two-months-in-advance/5378655

  128. Resident Dissident

    3 May, 2014 - 8:35 am

    @Sofia

    “I must be a magician!

    Here is my spell to make RD/ELSO etc disappear… “Just imagine for a moment you have family in a place, which kind of help would you really choose?””

    Hardly magical – I was just hard at work last week and hence had little time for Holodomor deniers such as yourself.

    The short answer is that any family, including my own, would ask for the time and help that circumstances demanded. At no time have I ever advocated US military intervention in the Ukraine or Russia – but if the US wishes to support human rights and the Helsinki Accords through the OSCE they have my support to do so. Similarly, I do not support US military or other intervention in all cases – but then I do in others as a last resort to remove regimes that are massively abusing the human rights of their own people. I very much doubt that those in the concentration camps or in occupied Nazi Europe or my wife’s ancestors were opposed to the US eventually joining the wars against the Nazis.

    I’m afraid you and Mr Goss are as usual just pitching at a straw man of your own construction and in the process revealing more about your own one dimensional view than anything else. In your simple world I’m afraid everything has to be converted into one simple enemy whose every action is bad/evil/fascist and everyone who opposes it is good and beyond criticism whose every action can be justified by its opposition to the universal evil. Sometimes this view can be excused as part of the idealism of youth – but this is clearly not the case for Mr Goss and if Habba is right that you are a middle aged man then time is running out on your part.

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